OK, we have heard it before, and I want to set the record straight.

There have been alot of inquiries regarding whether Pioneer will honor their warranty to purchasers of their Kuro displays.

In particular, there has been speculation as to whether they will honor an Elite product if it has been purchased from a "non authorised Elite dealer".

My position is simple. Your warranty is with the manufacturer and not the seller. The law provides no exceptions to designated " authorized dealers". If you purchase a new Pioneer display they have no choice but to honor the warranty in the country it was sold, however, there are limitations.

Canada remains a mystery, both for cost and warranty support. This is plausible because they cannot supply support over a region 1.87 million miles.

In the US, you have statutory and case law to secure your claim. If the product is new and not resold you have warranty rights, express and implied.

EDIT: The warranty specifically points out that the original buyer or subsequent purchaser has all of the warranty rights.

I have never seen a post where Pioneer has denied a claim based on whether it was sold by a authorized dealer or not, so I believe this thread will not produce a valid claim.

Bottom line: Pioneer makes the best Plasma out there and it involves alot of tech that is not perfect.

Buy your display where you believe there is secure customer support.

If you have a unresolved claim post it here, but you have to post the correspondence. We will not accept a claim based on lip service. I will attempt to work through these claims as a last resort from your seller.

Paul

You already know my beliefs on this so I am with you. I am willing to help as well if there are any issues :)

Thank you Paul for a detalied explanation. I also agree, instead of going by "he said, she said" let's get some real cases in which Pioneer has attempted to null the warranty coverage of a new Pioneer plasma customer. Just because a company has a scare tactic in place, don't mean it's time to bow your head.

I believe I've been vocal about my opinions on the matter as well.

In case people wish to read the actual warranty language from Pioneer for the Elites, here you go:

I believe I've been vocal about my opinions on the matter as well.

In case people wish to read the actual warranty language from Pioneer for the Elites, here you go:

The big question is "who is an authorized Dealer?".
Is it anyone who legally sells pioneer televisions, or does it have to be from the list on thier website?

The big question is "who is an authorized Dealer?".
Is it anyone who legally sells pioneer televisions, or does it have to be from the list on thier website?The big fact is that it doesn't matter. Posturing by the manufacturer's customer support staff, or some "authorized" dealers is just a marketing ploy.

After reading AVS RPTV and plasma posts for six years, I don't recall a case where warranty work was denied by a manufacturer due to the "authorized" status of a dealer. Of course, I've only been able to read a sample of the posts during those six years, and, according to my wife, my memory is always suspect. ;)

The big fact is that it doesn't matter. Posturing by the manufacturer's customer support staff, or some "authorized" dealers is just a marketing ploy.

After reading AVS RPTV and plasma posts for six years, I don't recall a case where warranty work was denied by a manufacturer due to the "authorized" status of a dealer. Of course, I've only been able to read a sample of the posts during those six years, and, according to my wife, my memory is always suspect. ;)

^^

my wife says the same of my memory but I believe you are correct

^^

my wife says the same of my memory but I believe you are correctI'll tell her. :D

A manufacturer can put all langauge they want in their limited warranties, because people will actually believe it and it will reduce claims.

It reminds me of the sign you see in the valet garage: "We are not responsible for any loss or damage to your car. Ahhhhh.....I dont think so.
The law says they are, but they will point to the sign when there is a problem and 80% of the people will walk away. Its very effective.

Paul

Manufacturers have the right to prevent grey market sales and authorize whoever they want. The theory is tested daily against them and fails

Manufacturers have the right to prevent grey market salesA gray market sale, from the prospective of the US market, is a sale that involves an item (TV) that was manufactured for another market in the world. It becomes a "gray market" item when it's brought into the US.

This discussion hasn't involved "gray market" items. Dealers that are not "authorized" by Pioneer are selling sets manufactured for the US market and provided to the dealers by Pioneer distributors.

and authorize whoever they want.Of course they can. It's a marketing label. ;)

The theory is tested daily against them and failsSorry, I don't know what you are saying. :confused:

I believe you are referring to Autos.

Yes, the manufacturer does not have to repair the vehicles because they are made to a different spec in a different country. They often use completely different parts.

As I referred to earlier we are talking about U.S. made and U.S. bought displays.

Paul

The whole "authorized" system is in place to control pricing. You only sell to "authorized" distributors/shops in the confidence they will not get into a price war (especially e-tailers). If you notice they're trying to low ball and get others into a price war, they can pull their card. Pioneer's model isn't based around mass quantity like others. They're hoping for high margins. Controlling the sales circle is a good way of preserving their margins. As Paul pointed out, it's also a nice scare tactic to the consumer and one that works well. People enjoy being sheep and being told what they can and can't do vs trying to figure out what their rights and limitations actually are.

A gray market sale, from the prospective of the US market, is a sale that involves an item (TV) that was manufactured for another market in the world. It becomes a "gray market" item when it's brought into the US.

This discussion hasn't involved "gray market" items. Dealers that are not "authorized" by Pioneer are selling sets manufactured for the US market and provided to the dealers by Pioneer distributors.

Of course they can. It's a marketing label. ;)

Sorry, I don't know what you are saying. :confused:

No, grey market refers to any product sold outside it's intended distribution channel. You can change the meaning anyway you want, but the manufacturer's intention is all that matters.

OK, we have heard it before, and I want to set the record straight.

There have been alot of inquiries regarding whether Pioneer will honor their warranty to purchasers of their Kuro displays.

In particular, there has been speculation as to whether they will honor an Elite product if it has been purchased from a "non authorised Elite dealer".

My position is simple. Your warranty is with the manufacturer and not the seller. The law provides no exceptions to designated " authorized dealers". If you purchase a new Pioneer display they have no choice but to honor the warranty in the country it was sold, however, there are limitations.

Canada remains a mystery, both for cost and warranty support. This is plausible because they cannot supply support over a region 1.87 million miles.

In the US, you have statutory and case law to secure your claim. If the product is new and not resold you have warranty rights, express and implied.

I have never seen a post where Pioneer has denied a claim based on whether it was sold by a authorized dealer or not, so I believe this thread will not produce a valid claim.

Bottom line: Pioneer makes the best Plasma out there and it involves alot of tech that is not perfect.

Buy your display where you believe there is secure customer support.

If you have a unresolved claim post it here, but you have to post the correspondence. We will not accept a claim based on lip service. I will attempt to work through these claims as a last resort from your seller.

Paul


Keep in mind that even if, for the sake of argument, you were to give credence to Pioneer's attempt to limit its warranty to only sets sold by "authorized dealers/distributors," their own language permits passing on the warranty to any subsequent purchaser. So, unless the set was stolen from Pioneer before it was shipped to a distributor/dealer or they wish to make the argument that Pioneer is not an authorized distributor of the product it manufactures, there will always be an authorized distributor in the chain of purchase. Their own warranty language indicates coverage, though there might be squabbling about when the warranty period began to run.

No, grey market refers to any product sold outside it's intended distribution channel.At Wikipedia:

Refusal to honor warranties

Manufacturers may refuse to honor the warranty of an item purchased from grey-market sources, on the grounds that the higher price on the non-grey market reflects a higher level of service. Alternatively, they may provide the warranty service only from the manufacturer's subsidiary in the intended country of import, not the diverted third country where the grey goods are ultimately sold by the distributor or retailer.

This response to the grey market is especially evident in electronics goods.

You can change the meaning anyway you want, but the manufacturer's intention is all that matters.How does the manufacturer's intention matter if they don't actually deny warranty service based on the dealer's status?

As I posted earlier, I've not encountered any reports at AVS of denied warranty service due to the "authorized" status of a dealer selling displays manufactured for the US market.

Keep in mind that even if, for the sake of argument, you were to give credence to Pioneer's attempt to limit its warranty to only sets sold by "authorized dealers/distributors," their own language permits passing on the warranty to any subsequent purchaser. So, unless the set was stolen from Pioneer before it was shipped to a distributor/dealer or they wish to make the argument that Pioneer is not an authorized distributor of the product it manufactures, there will always be an authorized distributor in the chain of purchase. Their own warranty language indicates coverage, though there might be squabbling about when the warranty period began to run.

Great Point Buddha,

If I sell the set to you am I an authorised dealer?:rolleyes:

Bsh*t has a way of revealing itself inherently as in there own warranty terms.

Paul

Just in case anyone wants to read what Pioneer has to say see below. Life is to busy to add extra battles and it is always good to consider the cost. Best wishes no matter what your choice.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/FindStore/Unauthorized+Internet+Dealers

Just in case anyone wants to read what Pioneer has to say see below. Life is to busy to add extra battles and it is always good to consider the cost. Best wishes no matter what your choice.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/FindStore/Unauthorized+Internet+Dealers

They make their position pretty clear

They make their position pretty clear

A posted comment on a website, or stated over the phone, does not make it right, legal, or enforceable. Like some of the others, I've yet to read or hear about a circumstance in which Pioneer has refused warranty service for a legitimate defect simply because the set was purchased from a "unauthorized" dealer.

A posted comment on a website, or stated over the phone, does not make it right, legal, or enforceable. Like some of the others, I've yet to read or hear about a circumstance in which Pioneer has refused warranty service for a legitimate defect simply because the set was purchased from a "unauthorized" dealer.

It didn't know that you had access to all of the Pioneer warranty claim info :eek: Because what you have heard is meaningless.

It didn't know that you had access to all of the Pioneer warranty claim info :eek: Because you haven't heard is meaningless.

I guess since I haven't heard in years is meaningless too ;) And many above.

It didn't know that you had access to all of the Pioneer warranty claim info :eek: Because you haven't heard is meaningless.

You have any info where Pioneer actually denied warranty? Or do you just believe anything a company tells you?

You have any info where Pioneer actually denied warranty? Or do you just believe anything a company tells you?

Having worked in the computer and electronic industry for 30 years I can tell you that warranty, mean time to failure and repair data is a closely guarded secret. You will never find anything publicly released. So, anything you hear is speculation or BS.

Having worked in the computer and electronic industry for 30 years I can tell you that warranty, mean time to failure and repair data is a closely guarded secret. You will never find anything publicly released. So, anything you hear is speculation or BS.

Well in this industry I know many many companies and never seen a warranty get denied :) BTW my original background is the computer industry.

So far no one has stepped up to show us a refused claim and my guess is they never will.:D

Mike

Having worked in the computer and electronic industry for 30 years I can tell you that warranty, mean time to failure and repair data is a closely guarded secret. You will never find anything publicly released. So, anything you hear is speculation or BS.That's true, but AVS isn't a great place to flaunt resumes. You may find yourself out flaunted. ;)

What's missing are customer's complaining at AVS about being denied warranty work on displays that were manufactured for the US market, and then sold within the US by dealer's that are not on Pioneer's "authorized" list.

As some have said, "That's the bottom line."

That's true, but AVS isn't a great place to flaunt resumes. You may find yourself out flaunted. ;)

What's missing are customer's complaining at AVS about being denied warranty work on displays that were manufactured for the US market, and then sold within the US by dealer's that are not on Pioneer's "authorized" list.

As some have said, "That's the bottom line."

That's meaningless to the manufacturers. At the beginning of the thread some were pumping their chests out saying it wasn't "legal" to deny warranty. Now you have reduced it to protecting image. Fact is companies care little about those that try to subvert their policies and strategies. It's like the people that abuse return policies at Best Buy. You know Best Buy doesnt care about them. It's called firing your customers.

So if I buy from an un-authorized dealer and my set is defective after say 3 months, then I call Pioneer and they tell me "Too bad", what do I do then?

So if I buy from an un-authorized dealer and my set is defective after say 3 months, then I call Pioneer and they tell me "Too bad", what do I do then?

It wont happen. The point that most are trying to make is that if you buy from a dealer you trust everything will work out either way.

At the beginning of the thread some were pumping their chests out saying it wasn't "legal" to deny warranty. Now you have reduced it to protecting image.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Of course they aren't mutually exclusive. But Pioneer made their decision and made it clear to their customers and dealers. They have weighed the minor impact of so called "customers" that try to skirt their policies. They don't care about them and they have made that clear.

Of course they aren't mutually exclusive. But Pioneer made their decision and made it clear to their customers and dealers. They have weighed the minor impact of so called "customers" that try to skirt their policies. They don't care about them and they have made that clear.

So why do they keep giving units to Costco? They are not on that "list"

You have any info where Pioneer actually denied warranty? Or do you just believe anything a company tells you?

If you are truly interested you can give the warranty and claims department at Pioneer a call and they will let you know if they have denied claims prior to this. I have sold Pioneer since 1999 and I believe them when they say something. Again, the decision lies with the individual making the purchase. Best of luck.

If you are truly interested you can give the warranty and claims department at Pioneer a call and they will let you know if they have denied claims prior to this. I have sold Pioneer since 1999 and I believe them when they say something. Again, the decision lies with the individual making the purchase. Best of luck.

There is a whole side to this that people don't understand. While most want to save money, Pioneer has identified a portion of their product line that deserves the care and feeding of a dealer network trained to properly represent their product. The Elite family is not a commodity line, but their flagship. They have a right to reward those dealers that focus on helping them achieve their sales goals and quality strategy. Every manufacturer has the right to do this.

Just because you want to squeeze every last penny out of a deal and reduce every transaction to a commodity doesn't mean the manufacturers must go along with it. Don't like it? Then buy a crappy Panasonic from Big Bill's of Buffalo's internet store and live with what you get.

There is nothing "crappy" about Panasonic.

Paul I have been in the business for a while and have never heard of any manufacturer denying warranty claims. I have also been on this forum for a long time and have never come across such a thread.

If a person buys from a legitimate business who supplies an invoice with a date and rolling invoice number, they "should be" good.

With this being said a person should still do there do diligence and buy from a reputable dealer. A good start is www.resellerratings.com

(Panasonic makes a great product, they hold about 50% of all plasma sales worldwide.)

Of course they aren't mutually exclusive. But Pioneer made their decision and made it clear to their customers and dealers. They have weighed the minor impact of so called "customers" that try to skirt their policies. They don't care about them and they have made that clear.Please be clear about what exactly has Pioneer made clear?

A lot of Pioneer plasmas are sold by dealers that aren't on Pioneer's authorized list. Has Pioneer shut off the supply of plasmas to those dealers? Have any of the unauthorized customers, with warranty problems, posted at AVS about not getting their warranty work done?

Maybe, just maybe, all the US market Pioneer plasmas are distributed by authorized Pioneer distributors.
Maybe, just maybe, those authorized distributors are operating with a wink from Pioneer.
Maybe, just maybe, Pioneer's posturing about warranty denial is left vague to satisfy their "authorized" dealers, while Pioneer distributors keep Pioneer's unauthorized dealers happy.

For Pioneer, and all the other manufacturers, that might be a win - win. :D

Paul I have been in the business for a while and have never heard of any manufacturer denying warranty claims. I have also been on this forum for a long time and have never come across such a thread.

If a person buys from a legitimate business who supplies an invoice with a date and rolling invoice number, they are good.

With this being said a person should still do there do diligence and buy from a reputable dealer. A good start is www.resellerratings.com

(Panasonic makes a great product, they hold about 50% of all plasma sales worldwide.)

Ty Cleveland,

I respect and trust your claims.

I am assuming you are referring to panasonic as well as pioneer plasmas?

This is really great news for anyone interested (or feared) into buying new technology, including plasma of course.

TY for your input sir.

Paul

I was of the understanding that the forum is a way of accumulating information to base a decision upon. I see no intent to sell but rather to defend the manufacturer and their right to set policy. I always like to know the pros and cons prior to making a decision.

I am assuming you are referring to panasonic as well as pioneer plasmas?
Paul
I am talking about any product made on this planet by any manufacturer. From toasters, to cars, to power tools. ect, ect, ect.

At the end of the day though, it is very important to find a dealer that will take care of a client. Sooner or later bad luck will strike and having a dealer around to support issues is a good feeling. In the end I am a consumer myself and yes " I want it all " :D.

It wont happen. The point that most are trying to make is that if you buy from a dealer you trust everything will work out either way.

And you know this how?

So why do they keep giving units to Costco? They are not on that "list"

They are a direct account!

And you know this how?

Please if you are going to ask me questions say that you work for Invision and be honest maybe then I will consider answering.

Please if you are going to ask me questions say that you work for Invision and be honest maybe then I will consider answering.


I know you have been in the industry for many years, and are a very knowledgeable salesperson. I want you to share some of your knowledge with me. Every little bit helps. Just a consumer looking for the light at the end of the tunnel!;)

I was of the understanding that the forum is a way of accumulating information to base a decision upon. I see no intent to sell but rather to defend the manufacturer and their right to set policy. I always like to know the pros and cons prior to making a decision.As the founder and owner of a company that sells Pioneer plasmas here at AVS, you are right to follow Pioneer's stated policies as closely as possible.

But you and the folks who work for you have also implied that Pioneer carries out those policies to the extent that Pioneer routinely denies warranty work to any buyer who failed to establish that the dealer who sold them their Pioneer plasma was on the "authorized" list.

I'm one of your happy customers (6010) who has recommended your company to others, but as I told Pat (of Invision), I think it's a disservice to Invision to post warnings -- implied or otherwise -- when they can't be confirmed by AVS member reports. After all, the members here are not at all shy about complaining when then are dissatisfied.

Accumulating information is what some of us at AVS are all about. Sometimes it's very important to include good judgement along with the information we collect.

To clarify my position on warranties during the past two days of discussion, I haven't been discussing the 250 mile limit that Pioneer seems to impose on it's Elite dealers. I assume that all those Elite dealers have service departments that are ready to travel up to 250 miles to give Pioneer's Elite customers the outstanding service that Pioneer clearly wants them to have. :D

Hey you guys, I think this is an interesting thread and has a shot at illuminating questions that have been floating around for a while. I fear all the bickering between dealers could lead to its demise. Let's keep this one going.

Just a consumer looking for the light at the end of the tunnel!;)Be careful, that tunnel may be where the sun don't shine, or it might be a train. :eek:

If you are truly interested you can give the warranty and claims department at Pioneer a call and they will let you know if they have denied claims prior to this. I have sold Pioneer since 1999 and I believe them when they say something. Again, the decision lies with the individual making the purchase. Best of luck.

Seems an ex employee disagrees with your assumptions on the warranty matter. Why is that? Wouldn't you think there would be several complaints in this forum of denied warranty if that truly were the case? It's obvious these unauthorized resellers have sold thousands of sets and I'm sure some have needed warranty work and this forum would be the logical place of hearing those complaints. I also just read a thread the other day where a buyer purchased his set from an unauthorized reseller and he called for warranty work and they hooked him up for service without even batting an eye or asking where he got the set.

some posts deleted

this issue is why we try to limit posts to technical issues:

to me this warranty issue is part of the commercial aspects of the sale and not technical...and based on the number of reports and PM's this thread has generated it is a good rule

thread time out