Just wondering as all I have now is the ONKYO sub that came with my HTIB setup. I got to check out a DEF TECH SUPERCUBE I in my room and was blown away. I wonder though if it is overpriced and if there is much better for alot less money?

In a sense, almost all subs that are small and good are overpriced because you can always find a larger, cheaper sub that will outperform them. With subs, good and small = expensive.

The Supercube 1 has a lot of power and can play rather loud for it's size without question. However the specs that Def-Tech lists for their subs (I own the Super-Cube Reference) are not the industry standard +/- 3 db. The Super-cube 1 falls off in output sharply below 28 Hz from what my memory tells me. Which is not bad for it's size. Of course you can get a lot of room gain dependent on room size and sub location.

The long story short is that as good as the SC1 may sound there will be certain parts in movies that it simply will not play because it will not output anything in and around the 15 - 20 Hz range that most all of the similarly priced ID brands will. Again this is not saying it is a bad subwoofer, as there are a ton of subs out there, big or small that do not have the ability to play the super-low stuff. You can however get a much better performing subwoofer for the same, or even less, money from SVS, HSU, ED, or Epik just to name a few. The main thing the SC1 has going for it is it's small size, just like Mojomike said. If you have room for one of the larger ID brands and you want the most performance you can get for your money my recommendation is to go ID.

Good luck and enjoy whatever you get.:cool:

I LOVE my supercube 1, and for my room (19'x14') it works great. Very tight bass and not boomy at all. I got the deal of the century on mine (traded some labor for it), so I'm not sure how it stacks up value-wise with other subs.

Without the ability to measure... I will say this as far as bass extension goes. In real world environments, this sub is visceral! I watched Live Free Die Hard the other night in DTS master audio and was blown away at the gunfire and explosions. You literally felt every shot go through you!!

Just wondering as all I have now is the ONKYO sub that came with my HTIB setup. I got to check out a DEF TECH SUPERCUBE I in my room and was blown away. I wonder though if it is overpriced and if there is much better for alot less money?

Granted, there is more to life than objective measurements, but this website is a good resource....

http://home.comcast.net/~frank_carter/Nousaine.htm

Long story short, the Supercube has an average SPL between 25 - 62Hz of 103db.

The Outlaw LFM-1 which is a little cheaper has an average SPL between 25 - 62Hz of 108db...

So yes, you can get more SPL's for less money, but you will sacrifice size.

According to the link above, Supercube1 don't have any useful output below 25hz, and even at that FR it's only 75db. A whimp!

According to the link above, Supercube1 don't have any useful output below 25hz, and even at that FR it's only 75db. A whimp!

depends on if that was measured at the active driver or one of the side firing passive radiators. i don't know how you could accurately measure a sub with that design

i've heard the little supercubes "in room" and they are no whimps in my opinion

to the OP, you heard the sub for yourself in your own room, it's really up to you if it's worth it or not but you should be able to find def tech at about 25% off of retail. if not, find another dealer

also, watch for clearance deals and ebay for really good deals

Granted, there is more to life than objective measurements, but this website is a good resource....

http://home.comcast.net/~frank_carter/Nousaine.htm

Long story short, the Supercube has an average SPL between 25 - 62Hz of 103db.

The Outlaw LFM-1 which is a little cheaper has an average SPL between 25 - 62Hz of 108db...

So yes, you can get more SPL's for less money, but you will sacrifice size.

It's not only that the Supercube I averaged only 103 db between 25-62 Hz, but that maximum response was achieved only between 50-62 Hz. Below 50Hz, response fell off at 18 db per octave. Also, at 40 Hz, output was limited to 100db by distortion.

The fact that the OP liked the Supercube Reference I AS COMPARED TO HIS ONKYO HTIB SUB should come as no surprise.

As far as how Tom Nousaine tests subwoofers, including those with passive radiators, we can start with the fact that Tom has been testing subs (for Sound & Vision magazine and other publications), with passive radiators for a minimum of 13 years.

More importantly, his tests are conducted uniformly which gives no advantage to any particular design.

Finally, OTK might want to state that he owns 6 Def Tech subs (and therefore may not be unbiased).

It's not only that the Supercube I averaged only 103 db between 25-62 Hz, but that maximum response was achieved only between 50-62 Hz. Below 50Hz, response fell off at 18 db per octave. Also, at 40 Hz, output was limited to 100db by distortion.

The fact that the OP liked the Supercube Reference I AS COMPARED TO HIS ONKYO HTIB SUB should come as no surprise.

As far as how Tom Nousaine tests subwoofers, including those with passive radiators, we can start with the fact that Tom has been testing subs (for Sound & Vision magazine and other publications), with passive radiators for a minimum of 13 years.

More importantly, his tests are conducted uniformly which gives no advantage to any particular design.

Finally, OTK might want to state that he owns 6 Def Tech subs (and therefore may not be unbiased).


all true...but wouldn't you agree that certain designs may benefit from that testing more than others?
ie...front firing ports as opposed to rear ports, or for that matter, side mounted PR's...when actually room gain may affect all differently?

It's not only that the Supercube I averaged only 103 db between 25-62 Hz, but that maximum response was achieved only between 50-62 Hz. Below 50Hz, response fell off at 18 db per octave. Also, at 40 Hz, output was limited to 100db by distortion.

The fact that the OP liked the Supercube Reference I AS COMPARED TO HIS ONKYO HTIB SUB should come as no surprise.

As far as how Tom Nousaine tests subwoofers, including those with passive radiators, we can start with the fact that Tom has been testing subs (for Sound & Vision magazine and other publications), with passive radiators for a minimum of 13 years.

More importantly, his tests are conducted uniformly which gives no advantage to any particular design.

Finally, OTK might want to state that he owns 6 Def Tech subs (and therefore may not be unbiased).

no bias here, my next subs will most likely be the JL f212's

just stating my opinion and asking questions

how does one accurately measure a subwoofer in an anechoic condition when energy is emitting from 3 sides of the cube? not only that but different frequencies from different 2 different sides ?

if you have the answers to these questions, please let me know because i like learning all i can about this stuff

if you do not have the answers, kindly shut your pie hole

no bias here, my next subs will most likely be the JL f212's

just stating my opinion and asking questions

how does one accurately measure a subwoofer in an anechoic condition when energy is emitting from 3 sides of the cube? not only that but different frequencies from different 2 different sides ?

if you have the answers to these questions, please let me know because i like learning all i can about this stuff

if you do not have the answers, kindly shut your pie hole

I don't speak for Tom Nousaine. He has tested over 250 subwoofers.

Quoting from the owners of Epik subwoofers, "He has been reviewing subwoofers for many years and has earned a reputation as an incredibly knowledgeable reviewer."

Epik chose Tom Nousaine to test their flagship, the Conquest. This choice was made partly because Tom had previously tested the $15,000 Velodyne DD-1812 and the ~$10,000 Genelec HTS6.

If you have questions about his testing methods, you need to direct those questions to Tom Nousaine, not me.

I hope that you contacted Definitive Technology to find out the best stacking pattern for your 6 Definitive Technology subwoofers, as they should be in the best position to answer that question.

I don't speak for Tom Nousaine.

you do speak for him if you're posting his numbers

If you have questions about his testing methods, you need to direct those questions to Tom Nousaine, not me.

you are the one posting his numbers, you should explain what they mean. if you have no understanding of how he tests a cube with an active driver on the front and a passive radiator on both sides then you should not run around posting his numbers unless you can fully explain them

I hope that you contacted Definitive Technology to find out the best stacking pattern for your 6 Definitive Technology subwoofers, as they should be in the best position to answer that question.

this has nothing to do with the thread or the topic. it's just another one of your pop shots at me personally because you seem to have some type of Jihad agenda against def tech and store bought subs in general. it's also no secret that you're a staunch ID fanboy so who has the bias here ?

you do speak for him if you're posting his numbers



you are the one posting his numbers, you should explain what they mean. if you have no understanding of how he tests a cube with an active driver on the front and a passive radiator on both sides then you should not run around posting his numbers unless you can fully explain them



this has nothing to do with the thread or the topic. it's just another one of your pop shots at me personally because you seem to have some type of Jihad agenda against def tech and store bought subs in general. it's also no secret that you're a staunch ID fanboy so who has the bias here ?

I will continue to post the link to the list of more than 250 subwoofers tested by Tom Nousaine. I get requests for the link to Tom Nousaine's tests of more than 250 subwoofers.

As Jhan notes the list is a good resource.

http://www.home.comcast.net/~frank_carter/Nousaine.htm

You are probably not aware that Tom Vodhanel, co-owner of SVS participated in bringing the list together.

From time to time I also refer to tests done by Ilkka. I don't speak for Ilkka any more than I speak for Tom Nousaine.

From time to time I refer to tests done by my friend Craig Chase. I don't speak for Craig Chase any more than I speak for Tom Nousaine.

There is a very good reason Epik chose Tom Nousaine to test their flagship Conquest. "He has been reviewing subwoofers for many years and has earned a reputation as an incredibly knowledgeable reviewer".

I will continue to advise you to direct any and all questions about the methods used by Tom Nousaine to him.

do you realize that on the graph that the supercube II and III has a higher SPL then the SuperCube I?

I = 10"
II = 8"
III = 7"

that is weird...

The numbers on that chart don't seem very reliable from my experience.
Also, it's no small wonder that the manufacturers with whom the list editor is associated have highly rated products (at least as far as his test specifications).

As far as DefTechs small cube subs go.... I would rate em' with Sunfire subs, which regardless of anyones test numbers, sound quite awesome with a proper setup. Excellent performers at the size and price point, that will satisfy 99.99% of the users.
I think it's funny how the small box subs get compared to big box subs. It's like comparing a tricked out supercharged rice grinder with a H.O. big block V8 - Both are fast, and both will get you there if they're built properly.

Just wondering as all I have now is the ONKYO sub that came with my HTIB setup. I got to check out a DEF TECH SUPERCUBE I in my room and was blown away. I wonder though if it is overpriced and if there is much better for alot less money?
Based off of the link to the subwoofer tests, the SVS SB12+ has similar averaged output. I had tested a SCIII versus the SB12+, and found the SVS dug deeper and cleaner (granted, a 7" driver vs a 12" driver is pretty unfair). If you haven't looked at one, I'd suggest at least a glance.:D

Yes and no.. It all depends on your situation. If you can fit a bigger sub in your room then yes.. If you can't then no.

The numbers on that chart don't seem very reliable from my experience.
Also, it's no small wonder that the manufacturers with whom the list editor is associated have highly rated products (at least as far as his test specifications).

As far as DefTechs small cube subs go.... I would rate em' with Sunfire subs, which regardless of anyones test numbers, sound quite awesome with a proper setup. Excellent performers at the size and price point, that will satisfy 99.99% of the users.
I think it's funny how the small box subs get compared to big box subs. It's like comparing a tricked out supercharged rice grinder with a H.O. big block V8 - Both are fast, and both will get you there if they're built properly.

Only the rice burner co$t twice as much with less performance. Subs aren't the same as cars. Op asked if he can get the much better for less money. Yes he can alot less. The op didn't say anything about size being an issue. I wouldn't even look at the supercube if size wasn't an issue.

The numbers on that chart don't seem very reliable from my experience.
Also, it's no small wonder that the manufacturers with whom the list editor is associated have highly rated products (at least as far as his test specifications).

As far as DefTechs small cube subs go.... I would rate em' with Sunfire subs, which regardless of anyones test numbers, sound quite awesome with a proper setup. Excellent performers at the size and price point, that will satisfy 99.99% of the users.
I think it's funny how the small box subs get compared to big box subs. It's like comparing a tricked out supercharged rice grinder with a H.O. big block V8 - Both are fast, and both will get you there if they're built properly.

The fact that Tom Nousaine tests most of the subs for Sound & Vision magazine speaks volumes about the reliability of the tests Tom has conducted.

That is not to say that the list is perfect. Still, nothing else even remotely like it exists, and IMHO, the confidence level of the list is >90%, probably closer to 95%.

A lot of people STILL don't understand that there can be findings that are counter-intuitive because so many subs have their maximum output between 50-62 Hz. Such a sub could have a considerable amount of average output but be down by more than 20 db at 30 Hz, (compared to output at 62 hz).

The list is maintained by one enthusiast, not by Tom Nousaine. The list was originally started by Tom Vodhandel, the "V" in SVS.

The list is simply a ranking by output from 25Hz-62Hz. This lets you see how a given subs compares to all the others, without regards to design considerations including size, price, etc.

No one else has a list that is remotely as comprehensive as this one.

You seem to be suggesting that the list is biased in some way. It's not clear if you think Tom Nousaine is skewing the results for commercial reasons.

If you think that the list is skewed, please provide a link to the test results that would provide even one shred of evidence to support your assertion.

bump

Only the rice burner co$t twice as much with less performance. Subs aren't the same as cars. Op asked if he can get the much better for less money. Yes he can alot less. The op didn't say anything about size being an issue. I wouldn't even look at the supercube if size wasn't an issue.


"Subs aren't the same as cars."

Obviously. But there are similarities when it comes to displacement vs. performance issues.

"Only the rice burner co$t twice as much with less performance."

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on what defines performance among many other factors

"Op asked if he can get the much better for less money. Yes he can alot less"

He originally asked if it was overpriced for what you get. I believe my opinion in comparison to similarly sized and priced Sunfire Subs as well as my generalization regarding overall performance addressed that question.

"Yes he can alot less."

Highly debateable.

"I wouldn't even look at the supercube if size wasn't an issue."

If you'd care to share specific reasoning, please do.
Also, what if size were an issue?

The fact that Tom Nousaine tests most of the subs for Sound & Vision magazine speaks volumes about the reliability of the tests Tom has conducted.

That is not to say that the list is perfect. Still, nothing else even remotely like it exists, and IMHO, the confidence level of the list is >90%, probably closer to 95%.

A lot of people STILL don't understand that there can be findings that are counter-intuitive because so many subs have their maximum output between 50-62 Hz. Such a sub could have a considerable amount of average output but be down by more than 20 db at 30 Hz, (compared to output at 62 hz).

The list is maintained by one enthusiast, not by Tom Nousaine. The list was originally started by Tom Vodhandel, the "V" in SVS.

The list is simply a ranking by output from 25Hz-62Hz. This lets you see how a given subs compares to all the others, without regards to design considerations including size, price, etc.

No one else has a list that is remotely as comprehensive as this one.

You seem to be suggesting that the list is biased in some way. It's not clear if you think Tom Nousaine is skewing the results for commercial reasons.

If you think that the list is skewed, please provide a link to the test results that would provide even one shred of evidence to support your assertion.

That is not to say that the list is perfect.


Thank you. That is my point. I feel no need to elaborate.

However, since we are on the topic of skewed results. I would suggest that anyone who is inclined to drop down their cash on a subwoofer actually test the unit in their own listening environment and perform a real world evaluation for themselves. Every sub I've owned or installed over the last 15 years has performed different in every room and environment. Test results, lists and anyone elses opinion mean very little in that regard. If you believe otherwise, than I most definitely question your judgement.
But I digress..... I simply prefer to derive my opinions based on what I experience rather than what I read.

This is an old thread, but I've got a SC1 for a pretty small room, I think 15x9. Its a bit over powering. I've got an Onkyo 6100, it think the sub sounds great, but its only on less than half way on the knob in the back. I dont know what you consider high priced, but I snagged this sub at a local store for $599 on sale. We knew it would be a big much for the room, but the smaller ones were the same price and we will get a bigger room and a bigger system eventually to go with it.

"Subs aren't the same as cars."

Obviously. But there are similarities when it comes to displacement vs. performance issues.

"Only the rice burner co$t twice as much with less performance."

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on what defines performance among many other factors

"Op asked if he can get the much better for less money. Yes he can alot less"

He originally asked if it was overpriced for what you get. I believe my opinion in comparison to similarly sized and priced Sunfire Subs as well as my generalization regarding overall performance addressed that question.

"Yes he can alot less."

Highly debateable.

"I wouldn't even look at the supercube if size wasn't an issue."

If you'd care to share specific reasoning, please do.
Also, what if size were an issue?
Guess I made all those comments assuming size wasn't an issue. If size is then there really isn't many choices. But if size isn't an issue I would rather has an Ascend sub woofer or a Hsu Uls-15. There's no way a 10" sub can compete with a 15" sub with a much larger enclosure in the lower frequency.Those 2 ID subs anyway. Depending if it was used mainly for music or HT. The ht experience would be much better. For music maybe not so much of a difference. A 15" woofer has more surface area than both of those 10" woofers and the bigger enclosure just make a better sub woofer. I'm sure those two 15" woofers are at least par if not better than the Super Cube 1 and Ascend cost alot less. But if size is an issue you should always ask for a discount especially now. I didn't see what the op paid to know if he paid to much. $1200 is to much IMO.

This is a timeless discussion.

Good points made for and against.

Naturally, with all other factors equal, a 10" speaker will not move as much air as a 15" speaker...... unless you build a speaker with a massive high power handling voice coil motor mechanism with corresponding damping/surround, along with a rigid basket and cone that can move extreme distances yet still provide reasonable control. That along with sealed cab-passive radiator designs and rigid, braced cabinets all coupled to extemely powerfull amplifiers can help immensely to level the end result. But at a cost... again... physics. A 10" speaker will at some point reach it's excursion limit. None the less, the output can be quite impressive.
Usually at a steep price.

On the other hand, ya ever heard one of those JBL 15" subs at CC? Some people think they sound o.k. and go deep I guess... Pretty boomy and distorted at high volume and a bit of a one note wonder, with poor transient response. Now I personally would say they are overpriced for what you get, even at $400-500. But it will provide better all around bass in your system than a set of bookshelf speakers would by themselves. So for someone, it fits the bill in all aspects including price.

I personally can't and wouldn't try to make an argument that small box subs like Sunfire, DefTech, Velo MiniVee, Seismic and the like can compete in all respects with well built and designed, but also subs with much larger cabinets and drivers from HSU and SVS. I mean, lets get real.... physics still limit what you can accomplish when you reduce cabinet and driver size. However, with all that in mind... the small cube subs are quite amazing in overall response, dB output and FR and have an undeniable market for many HT and Music enthusiasts. The best of them are in a class by themselves and have their own market in the same fashion that big box subs have their own market.

Results may vary and in-room-response (YOUR room) will have an undeniable influence on performance. Much more so than anechoic measurements would indicate on a spread sheet.

That said, I have a big ol' Boston Sub with a 12" driver and I have a SC1. I've had M&K's(MX90) , Yamaha's (SW150), Sunfire (MKII), Polks, Advents, Cambridge SW, JBL's, Infinitys, etc.. in my younger days. They all served there purpose at the time depending on the room and power needs. There is no right answer to the dilema, except to audition for yourself in your room, with your equipment, with your movies and music and for you to make the decision. Any other argument will be derived from a considerable amount of FB bias.