I was pretty set on the RS1, but with technology moving so fast I am now questioning if black levels and native on/off is enough to make a projector "the best" when there are so many other variables. Aside from the colors, I am pretty determined to get one with good sharpness.

I looked into the same issue a few days ago.Was looking at either the Sony black pearl(have one in the main theater) or the RS-1x for a downstairs theater.Long story short I ended up with the Epson PRO Cinema 1080UB.Some reviews that I have read put the PQ very close to the RS-1 at approx $500. less.Also comes w/mount,extra bulb, 3 yr warrenty and 1 free year of blockbuster total access.I purchased mine through AV Science and also received a promotion they are doing and great customer service. Ron

The RS1 is a superb performer at a great price. The new Epson LCD is also. Probably the VW60 too.

You can spend endless hours pontificating about "whether it's the best" or just get one and start enjoying. There will always be something better down the road...although these projectors would be difficult to noticeably eclipse for a lower price.

According to Art Feierman (Projector Reviews - he owns an RS1) the RS2 (the RS1x is a runner-up) is the best, with the Epson 1080UB is an alternate, in the next lower price class. He said the 1080UB is sharper, but he considers the RS2 to be better overall.

See his comparison summary, bottom line, here: http://www.projectorreviews.com/Best1080pProjectors032008/projectorawardwinners.php.

After reading Art's review on the IN83 this morning, I think he would say it is the best UNDER 5K projector (when considering street pricing anyway). Too bad it's not very placement friendly.....

I'm ready to buy in this space as well. I'm leaning away from single-chip DLP (don't want rbe, even if I turn out not to be sensitive) and Epson (some convergence/quality concerns when it first came out). I'm looking to spend $3-5k. My current leading contenders:

- Sony vw60
+ pretty good picture
+ good/accurate color achievable
+ vertical stretch for anamorphic
- black levels compared to RS1x
- sharpness (?) compared to RS1x

- JVC RS1x
+ sharpness/black levels
- color accuracy concerns
- no anamorphic stretch

I'm building a 2.35:1 screen 120" wide in a bat cave, and I'd love to grab an anamorphic lens at some point during the life of my first projector.

Really, my comparison is:
- RS1x + video processor (for stretch/color fix)
vs.
- vw60

When I look at it that way, I can't justify going to the RS1x. Am I looking at it wrong? Are the colors of the RS1 just fine without a processor for normal person movie watching?

If the RS2 had fixed the color concerns, I'd be all over it. Budget? What budget?

Are the colors of the RS1 just fine without a processor for normal person movie watching?


Colors are fine. Way overblown. Most prefer the slightly saturated colors and they are no where near as oversaturated as the RS2 which in some ways is even a better performer

Man.. The RS1 color issue is over blown. Most people really like the extra pop they give.

Same as the HD1 right?

If so, the RS1 throws a mean image PQ wise. (Mean meaning awesome in this case)

I have not got to see an RS2 yet.

If color accuracy, convergence (actually CA errors) and sharpness are important, the JVC would not be my choice.In other areas of peformance it is very good.pojectors at a price point are design compromises intertwined with technology limitations.

the sony's are good but can't touch the native on/off of the JVCs. End results for on/off using the sony DI function is comparable but there are indeed pluses and minuses using the DI.

another very important factor is that Cedia is only a little over one and one half months away. new models will be shown and who knows what you might beable to buy for less or a little more with much better performance. Its the end of the model yea but with no end of the model year pricing.

Colors are fine. Way overblown. Most prefer the slightly saturated colors and they are no where near as oversaturated as the RS2 which in some ways is even a better performer

So the color issue is worse with the RS2? I thought it was superior to the RS1x across the board.

Thanks for the RS1x 'color issue is overblown' comments. I'll be able to audition a vw60 and an HD1 with my wife, so I'll get a chance to compare.

Assuming the RS1 colors are fine, the vw60/RS1x differences would be cost, v-stretch, sharpness, and black levels. You guys aren't making this any easier...

Actually, reading the projectorreview IN83 review, I may have to put the IN83 in the running, even with RBE... My wife likes a bright picture (she's always cranking up the brightness on my Pioneer 57" RPTV until all the guns are blooming!). 1100 lumens in 'best' mode would be great when I go anamorphic. Very bright, very sharp, good colors. I'll have to keep an eye out for other reviews.

As for Cedia, I'm not sure I can wait. Another coat of paint, some crown molding, carpet, and the front wall panels and I'll be ready to fire things up. Maybe 6-8 more weekends of work. I could probably hold out until Cedia, but not until Cedia announced projectors are actually available... If there is a price drop once the new projectors are announced, though, I could take advantage of that.

Do price drops occur around Cedia, or once new projectors are actually shipped?

So the color issue is worse with the RS2? I thought it was superior to the RS1x across the board.


Instead of hypothesizing about it for 59 pages, why dont you just go and see one?

All I can say is my RS1 is sharp enough that I get a nice clear picture with a lot of depth. It never looks soft in my setup so these people using sharpness as a reason not to get an RS1 is just wrong. I have seen plenty of projectors at Home Theater dealers and I can't say I have seen anything sharper. In fact my setup is the sharpest I have ever seen athough its probably because I spent plenty of time making sure it is setup and focused correctly.

Instead of hypothesizing about it for 59 pages, why dont you just go and see one?

Not answering for TomT99, but for me:

1) Depending on where you live, it's sometimes difficult to find a store to demo them, especially a store that has all the ones you are interested in.

2) I feel guilty going into local brick&mortar stores to demo projectors I know I'm not likely to buy from them, so I try to minimize it.

That wasn't specific to the RS1x vs. RS2 discussion. I'd love to see an IN83, but don't know of anyplace in Austin that sells it.

I was pretty set on the RS1, but with technology moving so fast I am now questioning if black levels and native on/off is enough to make a projector "the best" when there are so many other variables. Aside from the colors, I am pretty determined to get one with good sharpness.

Tom,

"Best overall picture" is such a subjective idea, and everyone here has their own opinions based on their viewing preferences.

Have you seen enough projectors and/or flat screen displays to know which image qualities to which you're most sensitive or picky? You're right, there's more than just contrast ratio and black levels when it comes to PQ, and although those factors are important, they're certainly not the only things that make for a good picture. I came from an H79 to an RS1, and although there were things the RS1 did well it is not the "best" projector out there, contrary to what some people may say here. I now have a BenQ W10000 that I'm setting up since I sold the RS1, and it will be interesting to see how the BenQ fares against the RS1. I definitely appreciate the sharpness and lack of convergence issues in going from a 3-chip to 1-chip machine, as well as the color accuracy of the BenQ. However, I do very occasionally notice rainbows and I can already tell that the RS1 had better black levels. Some people are really bothered by the RS1's colors, whereas others see rainbows constantly or get headaches from DLP - in the end you ultimately need to determine what's important to you and then choose the projector that best fits your preferences. People can go 'round in circles about what's better on paper, but often you'll find that the seemingly large differentiators on paper are reduced to trivial points once you see projectors perform in real life with your own eyes.

The tough thing is that even a demo often doesn't tell the whole story. There are plenty of movies where the RS1 colors look perfectly natural. Others will make them really stand out (in a bad way). It could take a lot of viewing to know how much they will bother you.

In my experience, even detecting rainbows in a demo might not be practical. The only time I owned a DLP, I didn't see a single rainbow until I had 14 hours on the bulb. Then I couldn't stop seeing them. Sometimes, all you can do is read as much as you can, make a decision and dive in...

If I had wanted to demo an RS1 in my theater I could have. It was way out of my price range at the time was all.

At worst? I'd bank somebody with one in stock would agree to let you return it if it it didn't work out without a restocking fee if you talked to them about it before hand.

Not sure where the best street price is on one right now.

After see'n the dang thing, I'd say this is a no brainer if you can score one for $3K-ish. Not a great projector for lower end sources than SD-DVD though in my opinion. SD-DVD or better is hella fine on it.

Not answering for TomT99, but for me:

1) Depending on where you live, it's sometimes difficult to find a store to demo them, especially a store that has all the ones you are interested in.

2) I feel guilty going into local brick&mortar stores to demo projectors I know I'm not likely to buy from them, so I try to minimize it.

That wasn't specific to the RS1x vs. RS2 discussion. I'd love to see an IN83, but don't know of anyplace in Austin that sells it.

Exactly

- JVC RS1x
+ sharpness/black levels
- color accuracy concerns
- no anamorphic stretch


I can't comment on the Sony, but can on the RS1.

I just recently picked up an RSVP2 (JVC's VP).

I don't think any projector has the stretch flexibility needed for a proper scope screen. A VP is mandatory for scope IMO.

Color issue is way overblown. The RSVP2 corrects the color, yet I can barely see a difference when color on the RS1 is set to -12 vs. the RSVP2's corrected colors.

If you really want the RS1 don't let those two things hold you back.

Heres my 3 step program for HT bliss. (I'm on step 2)
-Get RS1 now and just zoom and shift.
-Than get the RSVP2 (or another VP) and use the shrink method.
-Than get a lens.

Each one of these upgrades will get rid of any form of upgraditits, while the rest of these fools gets a new projector every year.:D

I can't comment on the Sony, but can on the RS1.

I just recently picked up an RSVP2 (JVC's VP).

I don't think any projector has the stretch flexibility needed for a proper scope screen. A VP is mandatory for scope IMO.

Color issue is way overblown. The RSVP2 corrects the color, yet I can barely see a difference when color on the RS1 is set to -12 vs. the RSVP2's corrected colors.

If you really want the RS1 don't let those two things hold you back.

Heres my 3 step program for HT bliss. (I'm on step 2)
-Get RS1 now and just zoom and shift.
-Than get the RSVP2 (or another VP) and use the shrink method.
-Than get a lens.

Each one of these upgrades will get rid of any form of upgraditits, while the rest of these fools gets a new projector every year.:D
Understood on the color issue. It's officially been removed from my list of concerns. It got so much mileage when it first came out it stuck in my brain.

Are you projecting 2.35:1 now? How wide a screen and what gain do you have?

One thing that was making the IN83 look good is the lumens... I know my wife likes a bright screen and I don't have a good feel for how bright a vw60 or RS1 will look when stretched to 120" 2.35:1 on an SMX (~1.2 gain) screen compared to my current Pioneer Elite 610 RPTV.

Understood on the color issue. It's officially been removed from my list of concerns. It got so much mileage when it first came out it stuck in my brain.

Are you projecting 2.35:1 now? How wide a screen and what gain do you have?

One thing that was making the IN83 look good is the lumens... I know my wife likes a bright screen and I don't have a good feel for how bright a vw60 or RS1 will look when stretched to 120" 2.35:1 on an SMX (~1.2 gain) screen compared to my current Pioneer Elite 610 RPTV.

SMX 118' wide scope screen using the poormans zoom method with white walls/ceiling running in high lamp mode and wouldn't want it any brighter.:D

SMX 118' wide scope screen using the poormans zoom method with white walls/ceiling running in high lamp mode and wouldn't want it any brighter.:D

Cool. I'm getting a price quote from AVS for the 60 and the RS1x. If they are in the same price range it's going to be a tough call. Time to get out and demo. I only have access to an HD1, but it should be basically the same. I hope they have it set up well.

Heres my 3 step program for HT bliss. (I'm on step 2)
-Get RS1 now and just zoom and shift.
-Then get the RSVP2 (or another VP) and use the shrink method.
-Then get a lens.


I'll second this program (You have done well, grasshopper!):D Step 2 is working so well (using a Lumagen HDP) that I might not ever get to step 3.

I don't think any projector has the stretch flexibility needed for a proper scope screen. A VP is mandatory for scope IMO.

Not true.

Any Sim2 PJ has fully programmable aspect ratio control in both axes with 3 user settings per memory, and 6 memories per input. 18 ratios per input. That covers all the ratios and can compensate for any AR nastiness on TV sources. Each ratio can also be individually assigned to fire a 12v trigger for masking or lens sleds.

Most Sim2 Scope users in the high end forum dont use a VP for anything at all. I've personally scoped HT5000, C3X1080 and HT380 PJs using native VP.

Hope this helps.

Has anybody tried the vw60 vertical stretch for CIH? If it doesn't do a reasonable job, there goes one of the big advantages of the Sony. I'm not picking up a Sim2 anytime soon.

I'll check over in the CIH forum.

You have done well, grasshopper!

:D

Has anybody tried the vw60 vertical stretch for CIH? If it doesn't do a reasonable job, there goes one of the big advantages of the Sony. I'm not picking up a Sim2 anytime soon.

I'll check over in the CIH forum.

Im sure it does a great job on basic stretch but its when you need to shift the image for subtitles in the black bars etc, you will run into problems... or just pick up a Sim.:rolleyes:

:):)

One thing that was making the IN83 look good is the lumens... I know my wife likes a bright screen and I don't have a good feel for how bright a vw60 or RS1 will look when stretched to 120" 2.35:1 on an SMX (~1.2 gain) screen compared to my current Pioneer Elite 610 RPTV.

I used my RS1/UH380 on an 125" wide (viewable) Carada 1.4 gain scope screen in a fully light controlled room, and I found the light output to be acceptable. I don't know how much larger I'd try with this type of setup, and I'd say it's on the low end of what I'd personally find acceptable for brightness, but as long as you have total light control in your room you should be fine. Based on measured lumen output, the RS1 should be brighter than the VW60 when calibrated to D65.

To the OP: I wasn't suggesting that personal demos alone should be used to determine whether a given projector is appropriate for you or not. I was simply trying to point out that often things tend to get overstated here - like the oversaturated gamut on the RS1 or its lower black levels - leading potential buyers to think that a given issue or advantage is greater than it really is. Sometimes seeing things in person can help to put all that in perspective. That's not to say that user reviews and feedback don't have value, because they certainly do.

:):)

:o""""""

SMX 118' wide scope screen using the poormans zoom method with white walls/ceiling running in high lamp mode and wouldn't want it any brighter.:D

Is this with the RS1?

To the OP: I wasn't suggesting that personal demos alone should be used to determine whether a given projector is appropriate for you or not. I was simply trying to point out that often things tend to get overstated here - like the oversaturated gamut on the RS1 or its lower black levels - leading potential buyers to think that a given issue or advantage is greater than it really is. Sometimes seeing things in person can help to put all that in perspective. That's not to say that user reviews and feedback don't have value, because they certainly do.

Oh, I know, I appreciate the advice and I agree. It really does come down to personal preference once you've gotten to a certain point in researching all of the different display technologies and their advantages/disadvantages. I just need to make a little bit more of a drive to a dealer who has a bigger selection sometime soon; I live in a suburb of a city which isn't small but has only a handful of home theater dealers in close reach.

To the OP: I wasn't suggesting that personal demos alone should be used to determine whether a given projector is appropriate for you or not. I was simply trying to point out that often things tend to get overstated here - like the oversaturated gamut on the RS1 or its lower black levels - leading potential buyers to think that a given issue or advantage is greater than it really is. Sometimes seeing things in person can help to put all that in perspective. That's not to say that user reviews and feedback don't have value, because they certainly do.

I'll second that. Having seen the RS1 in person, I didn't find the color saturation bothered me at all. And I didn't find the increase in native contrast to be as noticeable compared to my current projector as I thought I would.
__________________

pmeyer, regarding the Infocus IN83, a word of caution; the rainbows are VERY visible and drove me nuts within 4 minutes of owning one. I sold it next day. (Note; very small projected image due to set-up. too bright, so rbe accentuated). Bright as hell, but rbe galore. I would focus on a higher speed wheel if going with DLP or like myself, I will focus on JVC or maybe Seleco 3 chip. Depends what comes out at cedia. I think it is important to spend some time viewing, because quick A/B does not tell the whole story. Fatigue can set in. Good luck researching.

pmeyer, regarding the Infocus IN83, a word of caution; the rainbows are VERY visible and drove me nuts within 4 minutes of owning one. I sold it next day. (Note; very small projected image due to set-up. too bright, so rbe accentuated). Bright as hell, but rbe galore. I would focus on a higher speed wheel if going with DLP or like myself, I will focus on JVC or maybe Seleco 3 chip. Depends what comes out at cedia. I think it is important to spend some time viewing, because quick A/B does not tell the whole story. Fatigue can set in. Good luck researching.

Darn. That sharp 'dts' logo in the projectorreview review was really attractive, especially compared to the vw60 side by side picture...

I wasn't going to go DLP without a preview. With Infocus, that appears to be difficult. I'm not sure there is a local infocus dealer that can demo it. Still looking.

RS1x and vw60 are still the main contenders.

Is this with the RS1?

Yes

For under 5k: Don't forget the Planar PD8130 (which is 4.990 Euro and how much in USD?).
That is if you prefer DLP. If not the RS1/HD1 will be my first choice, too!

Darn. That sharp 'dts' logo in the projectorreview review was really attractive, especially compared to the vw60 side by side picture...

I wasn't going to go DLP without a preview. With Infocus, that appears to be difficult. I'm not sure there is a local infocus dealer that can demo it. Still looking.

RS1x and vw60 are still the main contenders.

RBE is VERY subjective...I wouldn't dismiss the IN83 based on one person's feedback regard rainbow effect. You need to try and see if for yourself. I have had the IN83 for two months and have over 100 hours viewing. I have not seen a rainbow..I don't look for them either. Furthermore, I was most concerned bout guests but I have had multiple parties watching sporting events and movies- over 50 people have spent quality time in my theater and not one complained about rbe or headaches- they just sat in awe of the picture. Keep in mind that AVS allows a window for trial to ensure that you are happy with the projector.
I checked out the rs1 and the in83 and preferred the sharpness and brightness flexibility of the in83. Both are great projectors though and I would have been pleased with either one...each has their strengths and you must decide what's important to you. No one can do that for you.

RBE is VERY subjective...I wouldn't dismiss the IN83 based on one person's feedback regard rainbow effect.
Understood. As I noted above, I'm trying to preview an IN83.

The difference is that at this point, I'd be willing to buy a vw60 or RS1x even if I couldn't audition them. Their pluses and minuses are pretty well spelled out in the forums. The RBE is subjective, however, and could potentially be a real problem.

We've got an Infocus DLP computer projector at work. If I'm looking at a powerpoint presentation, then turn my head quickly to talk to somebody at the table, I can see the rainbow out of the corner of my eye. Not a problem for a presentation. If I saw the same thing during fast moving action, it would be distracting.

Any good suggestions for content that makes the RBE more likely? I could take a DVD into work and try it on the projector from my laptop. Unlike 1-chip DLP owners, I do want to try to see the rainbow now, as opposed to after it will cost me shipping and restocking fees on a projector.

Any good suggestions for content that makes the RBE more likely? I could take a DVD into work and try it on the projector from my laptop. Unlike 1-chip DLP owners, I do want to try to see the rainbow now, as opposed to after it will cost me shipping and restocking fees on a projector.

I've got a 1-chip DLP (NEC) and initally saw rainbows with lots of things. I must have gotten acclimated to it because I rarely see them now. But here are two scenes where I've always been able to see rainbows quite easily and they are quite bothersome:

1) Matrix: Beginning of movie; Trinity is alone in empty, dark room on the computer. Saw lots of rainbows on the bright reflections on her shiny black leather outfit.

2) Gladiator: right before the first coliseum gladiator battle. It's dark underneath the coliseum and there are bright reflections of the swords/helmets/shields. Also when they emerge from the dark tunnel into the very bright arena.

Basically, darkly lit scenes with small bright spots that flash or move quickly are rainbow factories. Unfortunately for me, there are a lot of movies I like that fit that description (Dark City, Batman Begins, Matrix, etc) so I too will be very cautious when looking for a projector upgrade.

PS: I can also sometimes see them during the credits, but that doesn't bother me as much.

I'll grab the Matrix, darken the room, and give it a try...

Tom –

I am in the same boat that you are in. I have a PT1000 that I bought when it first came out. I would like to upgrade. I initially set my budget at $5000 or less, because I need to set budgets or I get rapped up in the frenzy and end up spending too much money for things I don’t really need (like a Dodge SRT10 pickup that I can’t drive but four or five times a year).

The DLP units are really calling to me because motion blur bothers me. However, like you, I don’t know if RBE will bother me or not. I suspect it will not. AVS will let you try out anything you buy and then exchange it if you find it bothers you, but like you mention, you pay shipping….. Plus, the inconvenience of swapping units out.

Even though I have set my budget to a max of $5000, I’m considering moving that up again. There’s three projectors that I thing need to be considered. Both the RS2 and Planer 8150 can be bought for just shy of 6K. The Marantz 15s can be had for under 7K.

And then there is Cedia. It’s hard telling what’s just around the bend. Fortunately for me, I can wait. I don’t need a new projector, I just want one. I’m waiting to see what rolls out this fall.

The sun.

Having 2 RS1 in the fold, I can honestly say get a Benq W5000. Its a better overall projector.

I personally like and appreciate Art's reviews. Where his reviews fail, is in the inconsistentcy of review product. An inferior test sample will affect the outcome though sometimes he follows up with a sample more reflective of a final polished product. And all things aren't used to the best of their ability in the review world. No time.

I'll grab the Matrix, darken the room, and give it a try...

I'm pretty sure presentation projectors use a slower color wheel (2x) which will result in much more prevalent rbe effect. This would not be a valid test.
Frank

I'll second that. Having seen the RS1 in person, I didn't find the color saturation bothered me at all. And I didn't find the increase in native contrast to be as noticeable compared to my current projector as I thought I would.
__________________

In a normal screening of most movies the difference can be subtle. On a few choice scenes the difference can be pretty dramatic. Some people are black level freaks, I mean to the point that it is the most important part of PQ. I mean I had an sp5000 for several years and the blacks in general were Ok enough and the black levels were down right terrible on it.

For under 5k: Don't forget the Planar PD8130 (which is 4.990 Euro and how much in USD?).
That is if you prefer DLP. If not the RS1/HD1 will be my first choice, too!

How are the blacks on this?

I'll second that. Having seen the RS1 in person, I didn't find the color saturation bothered me at all. And I didn't find the increase in native contrast to be as noticeable compared to my current projector as I thought I would.
This color thing... I say this as the proud and happy owner of an RS1, albeit now with a Lumagen HDP:

It's not just saturation. The green can be just plain wrong... like... yellow. Turning the color down didn't help. This didn't happen very often, Seabiscuit, The Last Samurai, and the Resort Ship in BSG, for example. The problem is, when it did it wasn't subtle. It pulled me right out of the movie with a "yuck!"

So... can you get an RS1 and a Lumagen HDP for under $5k these days? I'd sure do that!

This color thing... I say this as the proud and happy owner of an RS1, albeit now with a Lumagen HDP:

It's not just saturation. The green can be just plain wrong... like... yellow. Turning the color down didn't help. This didn't happen very often, Seabiscuit, The Last Samurai, and the Resort Ship in BSG, for example. The problem is, when it did it wasn't subtle. It pulled me right out of the movie with a "yuck!"

So... can you get an RS1 and a Lumagen HDP for under $5k these days? I'd sure do that!

What scene in Last Samurai? I've been trying to find differences and haven't so far.

For under 5k: Don't forget the Planar PD8130 (which is 4.990 Euro and how much in USD?).
That is if you prefer DLP. If not the RS1/HD1 will be my first choice, too!
How are the blacks on this?

The blacks are excellent with a very good DI ("Dynamic Black").

For under 5k: Don't forget the Planar PD8130 (which is 4.990 Euro and how much in USD?).


That's about USD $50,000... no wait, it dropped again... $60,000.. no wait... $75,000 :D

What scene in Last Samurai? I've been trying to find differences and haven't so far.
I haven't watched Last Samurai in a while and not with the Vision. But I was struck with the yellow greens when he walked out of the house and into the sunshine for the first time after his recovery. His "bodyguard"/guard was standing outside waiting for him.

Most recently I used Seabiscuit to campare. The scene where "he" and "she" (I forget their names) are watching the "the kid" (forgot that too) ride. They're leaning up against a white fence. The grass has a lot of yellow in it that goes away when the Vision is engaged. It just becomes nice and green.

Interestingly the very first scene in Seabiscuit with the sweeping pans of open land and horses do not show much difference.

I haven't watched Last Samurai in a while and not with the Vision. But I was struck with the yellow greens when he walked out of the house and into the sunshine for the first time after his recovery. His "bodyguard"/guard was standing outside waiting for him.

Most recently I used Seabiscuit to campare. The scene where "he" and "she" (I forget their names) are watching the "the kid" (forgot that too) ride. They're leaning up against a white fence. The grass has a lot of yellow in it that goes away when the Vision is engaged. It just becomes nice and green.

Interestingly the very first scene in Seabiscuit with the sweeping pans of open land and horses do not show much difference.

Thanks erkq!
I don't have Seabiscuit and it sounds like you haven't confirmed Samurai yet. Any other titles come to mind? I've been trying to find scenes where shifting color to -12 didn't match the RSVP2. Only thing thats obvious to me is color patterns. Maybe I just don't have an eye for it?
The only scene that ever bothered me was Yoda in Empire. He had this neon yellowish around his mouth and no matter how much I decreased color, it wouldn't help. I went back to the scene when I got my RSVP2 and the neon yellow was gone even without the VP. I wonder if thats due to bulb age?

The blacks are excellent with a very good DI ("Dynamic Black").

So is the overall pq better than the RS1's?

TomT99 and pmeyer

You guys are more confused than ever, right? I went through the same thing for months, with all the above mentioned FP's, and you should add the Marantz units to the list. This same question has been asked a million times with the same answer's. You need a plan of attack and certainly this is one good way. Those posting here have nothing to gain by you choosing their recommendation. My approach as always is to find a reference regardless of price. Ref#1 What is the film industry adopting to replace their film based projection system? Type of digital projector at a commercial cinema. Ref#2 In the top tier mega buck cost is no object home theater, what projection technology is being used? Look to the $20K and above forum including the D-Cinema sub category. That should make it a whole lot easier for you. BTW, let me ask you guys, what do you look at every morning, what do we all rely on to look our best? If its what the studio execs, producers and directors use, wouldn't that be your best choice. Dave

Thanks erkq!
I don't have Seabiscuit and it sounds like you haven't confirmed Samurai yet. Any other titles come to mind?
Battle Star Gallactica on the resort ship. It was the worst I've seen. The Vision set it right... such a relief.

I lent The Last Samurai to a friend who lives about 100 miles away. I won't have it back for a while to check again.

Also, check out the foliage in Things We Lost in the Fire. It was really bad. But I lent that to the same friend before I got the Vision so I'm not sure what the correction is like. But I do know it had LOTS of RS1 neon greens to work with.

Originally Posted by clehner:
The blacks are excellent with a very good DI ("Dynamic Black").

So is the overall pq better than the RS1's?

That can not be anwered with yes or no. Both pjs (RS1/HD1 and PD8130) have their pros and cons. Certainly the RS1 does not need a DI to produce excellent blacklevel/contrast and also the RS1 has a very flexible optical system (very far reaching zoom, vertical and horizontal lense shift). However, due to the 1-chip design there is no misconvergence of any kind with the PD8130, very high pixel to pixel sharpness (which some people like a lot no matter whether it is necessary for film viewing). Also the DLP punch versus the high contrast in low APL scenes (HD1) has to be mentioned.

This is only to mention a few important differences.

So, it's your choice. Both machines are excellent.

That can not be anwered with yes or no. Both pjs (RS1/HD1 and PD8130) have their pros and cons. Certainly the RS1 does not need a DI to produce excellent blacklevel/contrast and also the RS1 has a very flexible optical system (very far reaching zoom, vertical and horizontal lense shift). However, due to the 1-chip design there is no misconvergence of any kind with the PD8130, very high pixel to pixel sharpness (which some people like a lot no matter whether it is necessary for film viewing). Also the DLP punch versus the high contrast in low APL scenes (HD1) has to be mentioned.

This is only to mention a few important differences.

So, it's your choice. Both machines are excellent.

My W5000 now matchs the RS1 hi contrast in low APL scene's specificly, the last 20 mins. of Space Cowboys. With dynamic black engaged and the right manual iris setting I have absolutely no DI compression or pumping. The dynamic gamma is seemless. And theres nothing in the LCD/LCOS world that can match the perfect natural color and sharper more resolved image of my projector. This is the reason DLP dominates pro cinema and consumer grade above $10K. Having said that even though DLP is better in many ways, JVC has dominated. Just to much of a gap in on/off. DB works so effectively that enable use of generations older technology to compete with today better FP's, at very low cost. The Planar 8130 is the Buick Enclave to my Benq W5000's. GMC Acadia. Same basics slightly different looks and extras. Your right about the pop effect/ANSI contrast thing. I believe its the mirrors. Take a studio grade picture of yourself and hold up in mirror. Your reflection in the mirror is DLP, the photo is the LCD/lcos. I'll still take a RS1 or VW60. As a second choice.

TomT99 and pmeyer

You guys are more confused than ever, right? I went through the same thing for months, with all the above mentioned FP's, and you should add the Marantz units to the list. This same question has been asked a million times with the same answer's. You need a plan of attack and certainly this is one good way. Those posting here have nothing to gain by you choosing their recommendation. My approach as always is to find a reference regardless of price. Ref#1 What is the film industry adopting to replace their film based projection system? Type of digital projector at a commercial cinema. Ref#2 In the top tier mega buck cost is no object home theater, what projection technology is being used? Look to the $20K and above forum including the D-Cinema sub category. That should make it a whole lot easier for you. BTW, let me ask you guys, what do you look at every morning, what do we all rely on to look our best? If its what the studio execs, producers and directors use, wouldn't that be your best choice. Dave

Wouldn't that be 3chip DLP? If I could afford what the $20k+ forum was getting, I wouldn't be here :D

If I could translate the 3-chip DLP is best into 1-chip DLP must be the best in this range, I'd be good to go.

One lesson I am getting: I don't hear anybody who bought a vw60 (and isn't comparing it side by side to another projector) complaining too loudly. They are generally satisfied.

Most people are satisfied with the uncorrected RS1, but some are bugged by color in some scenes. Even at the worst, this is a minor annoyance in some scenes. I don't hear anybody complaining at all about a corrected RS1 or RS2.

Most people are satisfied with their 1-chip DLP solutions, but some see rainbows. In the extreme, this can be a real problem.

It's actually leaning me towards vw60 as a good safe bet. Not best in anything, but without some of the specific flaws... Cheaper, too.

Paul, why is the JVC RS2 out of the running? I assume it is due to the colors.

If you did purchase a RS2, would you say it is a must to have it calibrated?

Thanks

The RS2 is out because of $$ and colors. It's about 2k more than the vw60, , I've heard it didn't fix the (maybe overblown) RS1 color issues, and it's not brighter than an rs1x. I can't see going rs2 unless I was willing to add a processor if the colors bothered me.

As it's my first projector, the vw60 is a safe bet. The rs1 is the alternative. I'll see them both side by side in a local dealer showroom before I decide.

I'd much rather get a projector in the <$4500 range. Makes it that much easier to upgrade in a few years...

Ref#1 What is the film industry adopting to replace their film based projection system? Type of digital projector at a commercial cinema.I think there is a major flaw with that logic. Those theaters generally need a lot of light output, where the heat issues tend to be easier to handle with DLP. That issue doesn't come into play in the same amount with home theater sized screens. Are you going to stick with bulb projectors over LED projectors even if those LED projectors provide enough light for your home theater sized screen, but wouldn't for a 50' wide screen?

And has been pointed out, 3 chip DLP and single chip DLP are not the same thing. One reason those commercial cinemas don't use single chip DLPs is the light output issue. If they could get enough light reasonably and maybe just a little bit faster colorwheels, quite a few of them would probably go with single chip DLPs, but they will always look at what is best for their application, which often isn't the best for a different application. I know I wouldn't want to go with a projector with a very open iris that only got 2k:1 on/off CR just because commercial cinemas seem to be stuck about there as they try to get enough light for those huge screens.

--Darin

I think there is a major flaw with that logic. Those theaters generally need a lot of light output, where the heat issues tend to be easier to handle with DLP. That issue doesn't come into play in the same amount with home theater sized screens. Are you going to stick with bulb projectors over LED projectors even if those LED projectors provide enough light for your home theater sized screen, but wouldn't for a 50' wide screen?

And has been pointed out, 3 chip DLP and single chip DLP are not the same thing. One reason those commercial cinemas don't use single chip DLPs is the light output issue. If they could get enough light reasonably and maybe just a little bit faster colorwheels, quite a few of them would probably go with single chip DLPs, but they will always look at what is best for their application, which often isn't the best for a different application. I know I wouldn't want to go with a projector with a very open iris that only got 2k:1 on/off CR just because commercial cinemas seem to be stuck about there as they try to get enough light for those huge screens.

--Darin

Though DLP is brighter, I was referring to the color/picture fidelity of a reflective technology compared to a transmissive one. Reflection or DLP is a facsimile of the original. Just the very fact that transmissive technology changes the light level (terms used are POP factor,ansi contrast,etc. not as bright do to light loss) should be enough of a reason. If recreating as close to an exact copy isn't important, then don't sweat it. We may not always like what we see in the mirror, but it's the truth. My two most important attribute's after this one are lumens and sharpness. Personally, I don't see a much difference in 1 vs. 3-chip when calibrated and lumen matched the look more alike than the other looking like them. Though I see all projector's brought to CES the last decade my only 3-chip reference is the 10s1 on a 102" dalite hccv. Bright yes I had heat rash inside 5 mins. With the iris closed to 15% it was beautiful, the best I'd seen at the time(4 years ago). I would put the Benq W5000 on equal footing with this though its taken 4 years progression in technology and twice the mirrors to compete. Yes about the LED replacing bulbs on DLP's. That would be huge. No heat, even more silent and blacker, Absolutely. Dave

My concern with single-chip DLP isn't the light levels, sharpness, or color, it's the potential for RBE. If you don't see RBE, single-chip DLP sounds like the way to go, no convergence to worry about.

Reflection or DLP is a facsimile of the original

This other argument (transmissive vs. reflective) doesn't make any sense to me. A DLP chip is not a mirror that is reflecting a 'real' image or color that is there. All there is going into a DLP is three primary colors from lamps. No image, no colors other than the primaries. The image only exists downstream from the DLP chip.

A transmissive technology like LCOS sends the light source through a thin layer, true. But I don't care as long as the color coming off is accurate. Does it affect the engineering of the projector, does the lamp need to be brighter or the primaries split off the lamp different colors to account for it? Beats me, don't care. As long as the price is reasonable and the color is good, transmissive vs. reflective is a don't care for me. I haven't seen anything to indicate the DLP projectors automatically create more accurate colors.

That isn't to say a bright extremely sharp image isn't important to me. It is, and if DLP can deliver that better than LCD or LCOS, I'm all over it (unless I turn out to be RBE sensitive).

However, I believe that attributing the DLP picture quality to some 'transmissive vs. reflective' tradeoff is just marketing. They sell it that way because it sort of makes just enough sense to sound good. I think the image differences between the technologies derive from a much more complicated mix of the light engine physics and the video processing.

Though DLP is brighter, I was referring to the color/picture fidelity of a reflective technology compared to a transmissive one. Reflection or DLP is a facsimile of the original. Just the very fact that transmissive technology changes the light level (terms used are POP factor,ansi contrast,etc. not as bright do to light loss) should be enough of a reason. If recreating as close to an exact copy isn't important, then don't sweat it. We may not always like what we see in the mirror, but it's the truth. Sorry, but your logic is more flawed than I thought. If you believe the above I think you should be avoiding DLP. LCOS is a lot more like a mirror in real life. The reason is that LCOS can reflect what it wants for a color primary. All of these have to deal with the 3 primaries, but DLP goes a step further and doesn't even have anything other than on and off for the individual mirrors. In real life a mirror can reflect things in between like LCOS can (with LCOS being a reflective technology). Three chip DLP can only do 8 colors at any one time and relies on tricking your eye into seeing colors and levels it never put out, or to put it another way, to work with the way our eyes work with persistence of vision and hope we don't actually notice that what is on the screen at any one time is significantly different than what we are perceiving in most cases. Single chip DLP is even more limited in that it can only put out basically 2 colors at once (the primary or black, or white if it has a white segment).

DLP isn't a facsimile of the original. I would say that LCOS and LCD are more a facsimile of the original, but fortunately our eyes get tricked by DLP and for the most part it works. And I would say that LCOS and LCD are more like film in that they can actually display something like a 50% gray. DLP can't. It has to display things like 100% gray (white) part of the time and black some of the rest of the time with the goal being that a person thinks 50% gray is what was being shown. That isn't to say that DLP doesn't do it very well, but just that if we are going to compare to most things in real life, it is DLP that deviates in the way it does things the most, IMO.

The mirrors in your bathroom don't toggle the colors on one at a time interspersed with black in order to give you an image. The fact that DLPs use mirrors and a real mirror reflects what you give it so well seems like a pretty poor reason to pick a technology (unless you really embrace those DLP commercials about it being the mirrors). You might as well say that windows do a good job of showing reality in real life and LCD is more like windows (which are transmissive).

--Darin

Ok what he said. Jack LT compared both you can look him up. Its too bad its not easier to do A/B comparison's. To bad you can't rent the projector's in question for a day or week to decide what you like at home. Going to CES is another way, but your ready now. Personally I'd rely on this site more than published mag reviews.

Ok what he said. Jack LT compared both you can look him up. Its too bad its not easier to do A/B comparison's. To bad you can't rent the projector's in question for a day or week to decide what you like at home. Going to CES is another way, but your ready now. Personally I'd rely on this site more than published mag reviews.

Yeah, rental would be cool. If the market would just bounce back, I'd bite the bullet and get an RS2 and video processor...

Just called around and I don't think I have a local showroom where I can see the IN83. With the potential for RBE, that pretty much rules it out for now.

If I get a chance this week, I'll take the wife/kids over to see the HD1/vw60 head to head locally.