I think in a backroom agreement the whole digital download has already been given the go ahead.

It'll make the pc more valuable than just the internet, and it'll push the idea that pc's are for everybody after the initial geeks finish their vanguard march.

That's my opinion, and the Oracle from the Matrix agrees with me in spirit I believe.

:)

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/1818/oraclemr0.th.jpg (http://img512.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oraclemr0.jpg)

I wonder when this thread will be locked.

Sony has always been a proponent of digital distribution and in some sense, more than most other studios. The problem they have had has been one of execution. Digital Distribution requires extensive experience in software, services and user interface development -- skills that being a CE company doesn't provide....

I wonder when this thread will be locked.

I don't know, but I heard that the pot in Honolulu is really great. :cool:

Sony has always been a proponent of digital distribution and in some sense, more than most other studios. The problem they have had has been one of execution. Digital Distribution requires extensive experience in software, services and user interface development -- skills that being a CE company doesn't provide....

That wouldn't necessarily rule-out Sony as a content provider or middleman, would it?

I don't know, but I heard that the pot in Honolulu is really great. :cool:

'ju mean 'maui wowie'?:cool:

we called it that back in the day. is it still?

That wouldn't necessarily rule-out Sony as a content provider or middleman, would it?
The would love to be the first party. But failing that, then providing content to others also works although I am sure they hate it when they have to provide it to their competitors like Apple.

'ju mean 'maui wowie'?:cool:

we called it that back in the day. is it still?

Probably. It's been many a moon since I fired the ol' bong up. But I think the Oracle was putting a little in those cookies she was a baking too. :cool:

And last I can remember, wasn't there a section to discuss the video downloads? Not that it's that busy over there because that stuff isn't exactly getting on like a house on fire, but hey . . .

Oh look, here's a linky dinky to it.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=184

It seems everyone's racing to be the digital distribution center in our homes... Apple, Xbox 360, Netflix, Amazon, etc...

The thing I dont understand is...how do they plan on beating the cable companies? Some cable companies have on-demand channels that provide 300+ high def downloads. They own the bandwidth and they are already in our homes.... all they need to do to beat Apple and the rest is come out with a solution that's only 1/4th as good as anyone else's...hand out new boxes. With Apple, Netflix, etc, you have two devices... cable box and apple/netflix's box. With the cable company's solution, you only have one (not counting dvd/blu-ray player of course).

I think of video downloads in much the same way as I think of the paperless office. One day it will happen but I don't think it is going to be soon. Personally I am not going to invest in video downloads until there is a widespread standard (not based on a single OS, game console, or service provider) which does not charge any kind of subscription fee and that guarantees long term ownership (at least 25 years). From where I am standing I have to wonder why some people trust the current video download services when the EULA for these services make no guarantee for how long you will be able to access the content. Of course the situation is different with rental/streaming services since long term ownership isn't an issue for them.

I think of video downloads in much the same way as I think of the paperless office. One day it will happen but I don't think it is going to be soon. Personally I am not going to invest in video downloads until there is a widespread standard (not based on a single OS, game console, or service provider) which does not charge any kind of subscription fee and that guarantees long term ownership (at least 25 years).
Apple accomplished this for music with most of the limitations you say is not workable for you. They have a closed format and require that it only work with their devices. Yet, millions upon millions have bought iPods and bought music without that long term guarantee.

Why would video be different in this regard, especially considering that people want their music to be more permanent than video.

From where I am standing I have to wonder why some people trust the current video download services when the EULA for these services make no guarantee for how long you will be able to access the content.
The computer you type on required some kind of EULA yet you are using it to post here ;). I think when something does the job, people look the other way. Look at all the fine print for BD players wrt to firmware updates, bugs, etc.

Besides, if you talk to content owners, they do not at all think that you are entitled to something for 25 years. As such, they are not going to be in favor of such long term guarantees. They support new formats precisely to get you to upgrade every decade. VHS to DVD and now HD....

Moved.

My grandma has a hard enough time starting her DVD player. Now you want her to move to PC?:rolleyes:

My grandma has a hard enough time starting her DVD player. Now you want her to move to PC?:rolleyes:
Does she use computer to send email?

Amir,

What are the driving factors for how Xbox Live HD videos are encoded?

Does she use computer to send email?

MSNtv2

Amir,

What are the driving factors for how Xbox Live HD videos are encoded?
Hitting the sweet spot of bandwidth/quality. They need to keep the service profitable while at the same time, being on "HD" bandwagon.

Related to above, is automatic encoding as opposed to hand tuning done for optical formats. So good workflow is required to extract the best quality. Fortunately, digital distribution means less restrictions as far as codec parameters, allowing headroom that is not there with optical.

MSNtv2
You have the same grandma? :eek:

:D

Reason I asked is that many older people are realizing the benefits of complex technology and are adopting them. Email is one of the key scenarios.

I don't think we give them enough credit in being able to learn new things. If something is simple enough to garner mass adoption, it is also simple enough for majority of that population to use it too. Digital video today is not there for masses and hence, is not for older people either.

I think Sony probably expects downloads to coexist with BD Media.

At least based on my experience with Cox Video on Demand, they really need to improve their user interface. By comparison, Apple TV is really slick - and addictive!

With the PS3, Sony probably has the single best integrated media player on the market today. They can really exploit the platform with digital downloadable software of all kinds. In fact, the most recent statements from Howard Stringer clearly seem to indicate that Sony will take a more proactive role in network centric content.

Download and hard media are gonna co exist. I don't know why people are still thinking this is gonna beat this or that.

If download had ruled, we wouldn't have any CDs as of this writing.

And that sig by the OP is like saying mp3 download is gonna eliminate CD itself.

The oracle can't see this anymore for smoking too much.

Until such time that we are allowed unlimited bandwidth at reasonable prices then digital high definition movie downloads stand no chance of being a major success.....I pay £25 a month ( $50 ) for a reliable great internet service...I am capped at 25gigabytes a month download allowance although unlimited at uploads.

How many high definition movies can i download with a 25 gigabyte cap....Not that many i would bet so i do not think digital downloads are going to take off anytime soon.

I also like owning my movies with boxes and great artwork.

All that matters is that we have choice. I want that choice.

I have messed around with having dvd in digital file form to view in windows media center and the like, and I've come to the conclusion that managing all these video files is not worth the hassle sometimes.

If you run out of space, you need a new hard drive. It takes time to encode new movies you keep adding. And yes, making sure its all backed up so you wont have to do it all over again if your hdd crashes, is a hassle. Heck, getting the disc out of the case is not that big deal in the end.

Nothing beats owing the actual disc.

Now, I consider streaming totally different, but the bandwidth for hd content is a fairy tale dream.

I am watching HD rental from Apple TV. Movie starts within 30 seconds.

Managing your movies digitally is like managing your contacts. You can always use an address book. As long as the number is small, it does not matter what format you use. I would rather catalog a large collection digitally. I don't like to display movies and media in general.

It's like evolving from film to digital photography.

In the future, as in now, we will have many ways to get digital media in either SD or HD. There will be no dominant disc format again. Unless you call dominant the only HD disc format. I enjoyed watching Michael Clayton in hd on my dish 622. I watched it day and date with the release of the BD. Look at it like this....BD costs $20.00 and I can rent it for $5.99....is this a movie i will watch more than 4 times?

Nothing beats owing the actual disc.



I think owning the actual disk AND being able to store a bunch of them on a media server would beat it. I believe that was idea behind "Managed Copy" for HD media.

I have hundreds of HD movies on disk now. I'd definitely value the convenience of being able to pull them up interactively, search the list, play them or play part of them and instantly browse to another one without going to a shelf and loading and unloading.

Isn't that in fact the idea behind Multi-disk changers? A media server is better. Agreed though that the convenience and ease of use is badly lacking.

You have the same grandma? :eek:

:D

Reason I asked is that many older people are realizing the benefits of complex technology and are adopting them. Email is one of the key scenarios.

I don't think we give them enough credit in being able to learn new things....

On the other hand...http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/johnmccain/2299694/John-McCain-'technology-illiterate'-doesn't-email-or-use-internet.html

Apple accomplished this for music with most of the limitations you say is not workable for you. They have a closed format and require that it only work with their devices.iTunes allows you to burn your music to audio CDs.


Yet, millions upon millions have bought iPods and bought music without that long term guarantee.Amir, even if that was completely accurate, and it isn't because of audio CD burning, that would not make my concerns about long term ownership any less valid.


Why would video be different in this regard, especially considering that people want their music to be more permanent than video.What evidence do you have that people are less concerned about long term ownership for video than for audio?


The computer you type on required some kind of EULA yet you are using it to post here ;). I think when something does the job, people look the other way.So does that mean that the EULA of Windows XP says that at any time Microsoft can permanently disable the operating system ;)? I am kidding of course but that would be closer to an equivalent comparison since that is what can happen with video that you buy from current video download services.


Besides, if you talk to content owners, they do not at all think that you are entitled to something for 25 years. As such, they are not going to be in favor of such long term guarantees. They support new formats precisely to get you to upgrade every decade. VHS to DVD and now HD....I understand that the studios main goal is to maximize their profits and I am simply saying what I would consider necessary to invest in video downloads.

iTunes allows you to burn your music to audio CDs.
That doesn't make the format a "standard"/interoperable. No Sony or Panasonic player can play iTunes content. Saying that they can by having your music first copied to a CD makes for good Apple talking point but nothing more.

Would you think of BD as a standard if only Sony PS3 could play it and others could only play the content if you first copied them to D-VHS?


What evidence do you have that people are less concerned about long term ownership for video than for audio?
It is the nature of the content. With movies, many people are happy with a single viewing. That is why rentals for video works, but not for music. For music, people like to have long term access to them.

Think of this test: Buy a DVD and a CD. Assume you like them both the same. Watch the DVD and then have it get scratched. Now listen to the CD once and then have it stop playing. Which one will you miss more? I know for me is the CD as I already know the story behind the DVD so not being able to watch it again, is not nearly as important as the CD.

As an interesting aside, a lot of people buy DVD not to own it, but not have the hassle of returning it. This is backed by studio research by the way. They figured if they priced the content low enough, that would drive the consumer behavior this way and it worked!

So does that mean that the EULA of Windows XP says that at any time Microsoft can permanently disable the operating system ;)? I am kidding of course but that would be closer to an equivalent comparison since that is what can happen with video that you buy from current video download services.
You lose your digital content if the service stops being in business. If I buy a car and the car company goes out of business, then I can’t get warranty work done. Similarly, if you buy a BD disc and the content owner who created it, its interactivity bits are bound to stop working. So this is not a fundamental issue to digital distribution. It is rather a symptom of the lack of good execution/profitability in the business.

To the extent there is a well executed service, as we have with iTunes and music, then consumers show no concern for such things.

Amir,

If a hypothetical BD disc interactively downloads additional video content, does that video content have to conform to the optical video limitations?

For example, you buy a $50 BD first episode of xyz tv show, and that grants you access to the entire season in HD download for play on your BD player. Do those HD downloads have to conform to VC-1/H.264 optical parameters?

It seems everyone's racing to be the digital distribution center in our homes... Apple, Xbox 360, Netflix, Amazon, etc...

The thing I dont understand is...how do they plan on beating the cable companies? Some cable companies have on-demand channels that provide 300+ high def downloads. They own the bandwidth and they are already in our homes.... all they need to do to beat Apple and the rest is come out with a solution that's only 1/4th as good as anyone else's...hand out new boxes. With Apple, Netflix, etc, you have two devices... cable box and apple/netflix's box. With the cable company's solution, you only have one (not counting dvd/blu-ray player of course).

Yeah but when was the last time the cable companies were able to built a nice box?
Just ask the many ppl who clamor for a TiVo.
& they may get very wary to get into bed with TiVo since it would mean huge licensing costs.

At least based on my experience with Cox Video on Demand, they really need to improve their user interface. By comparison, Apple TV is really slick - and addictive!

With the PS3, Sony probably has the single best integrated media player on the market today. They can really exploit the platform with digital downloadable software of all kinds. In fact, the most recent statements from Howard Stringer clearly seem to indicate that Sony will take a more proactive role in network centric content.

U might be in luck, Cox is testing boxes with TiVo.
Of course ur monthly might rise.

as for Sony, I look @ it as both a positive & negative for BluRay.
This keeps BR around as another revenue stream because it will allow consumer another source media option to play on their new acquired HDTV in the next 5 years.
the flip side is that BR will not be the big seller as SD was in a century that has brought alternative means of media entertainment delivery.

Strictly speaking, the stream must be compliant with existing decoder spec. However, one may be able to use higher peak rate than what the drive allows. As a practical matter, these decoders can decode content made for digital distribution including things like longer distance between i-frames. So assuming the player firmware doesn't choke on it, you could indeed download non-compliant streams and have it still work. Although there would be no telling what the different players would do in these cases.

MSNtv2

Err... MSN TV2 is a PC. Keyboard, Celeron Processor, Windows CE, Media Player, IE6...

It seems everyone's racing to be the digital distribution center in our homes... Apple, Xbox 360, Netflix, Amazon, etc...

The thing I dont understand is...how do they plan on beating the cable companies? Some cable companies have on-demand channels that provide 300+ high def downloads. They own the bandwidth and they are already in our homes.... all they need to do to beat Apple and the rest is come out with a solution that's only 1/4th as good as anyone else's...hand out new boxes. With Apple, Netflix, etc, you have two devices... cable box and apple/netflix's box. With the cable company's solution, you only have one (not counting dvd/blu-ray player of course).

This is definately an issue. One option of course is telco's for bandwidth.

Yeah but when was the last time the cable companies were able to built a nice box?
Just ask the many ppl who clamor for a TiVo.
& they may get very wary to get into bed with TiVo since it would mean huge licensing costs.

hehe I am one of them. Own 2xHDTivo and one Series 2. My cable company tries to sell me on their DVR's. But I havent come across one that has the functionality of a Tivo.

btw I believe Comcast is working with Tivo to bring their OS to Comcast's DVR's.

btw I believe Comcast is working with Tivo to bring their OS to Comcast's DVR's.

Already available in New England.

I think of video downloads in much the same way as I think of the paperless office. One day it will happen but I don't think it is going to be soon. Personally I am not going to invest in video downloads until there is a widespread standard (not based on a single OS, game console, or service provider) which does not charge any kind of subscription fee and that guarantees long term ownership (at least 25 years). From where I am standing I have to wonder why some people trust the current video download services when the EULA for these services make no guarantee for how long you will be able to access the content. Of course the situation is different with rental/streaming services since long term ownership isn't an issue for them.


+1

Well said!

Hitting the sweet spot of bandwidth/quality. They need to keep the service profitable while at the same time, being on "HD" bandwagon.

Related to above, is automatic encoding as opposed to hand tuning done for optical formats. So good workflow is required to extract the best quality. Fortunately, digital distribution means less restrictions as far as codec parameters, allowing headroom that is not there with optical.

Fortunately, digital distribution means less restrictions as far as codec parameters, allowing headroom that is not there with optical under downloads more limited target bandwidth.
FIXED

In the future, as in now, we will have many ways to get digital media in either SD or HD. There will be no dominant disc format again. Unless you call dominant the only HD disc format. I enjoyed watching Michael Clayton in hd on my dish 622. I watched it day and date with the release of the BD. Look at it like this....BD costs $20.00 and I can rent it for $5.99....is this a movie i will watch more than 4 times?


What if you liked it and want to watch it again in 6 months? Maybe netflix and microsoft have the resources for 10,000 HD movies to be avaiable online, but does dish?

What if you liked it and want to watch it again in 6 months? Maybe netflix and microsoft have the resources for 10,000 HD movies to be avaiable online, but does dish?

As I said, their will be MANY ways to get HD in some form or the other. Optical media will be here, but will not be the dominant force say DVD is(was) because of how confusing and fractured the marketplace will become. BD will survive because of the PS3 as a gaming console, not because of BD as a movie format.;)

You have the same grandma? :eek:
Did it take years for your grandma to get a pc too.;)

The problem they have had has been one of execution. Digital Distribution requires extensive experience in software, services and user interface development -- skills that being a CE company doesn't provide....

Sony's digital download service via the PS3/Playstation store is already a day late and a dollar short.MS' Video store via XBL and it's new agreement with Netflix(to allow streaming of Netflix content via XBL)all about cover's the console digital download area as far as content,availability,etc..While Sony MIGHT be able to get a foothold in Europe and Japan, North America and likely the UK already have strong favoritism towards MS' XBL digital download services.Sony's service isn't w/o it's own merits(you can buy SOME standard
resolution movies for $14.99), it isn't even in the same league as XBL as far as design,content availability, and convenience etc..Sony will likely add lots of content over time, but as far as being a major player in the digital download area in NA and the UK, I strongly doubt they will be.