Hi-

I see that some projector manufacturers have built 1080p products using TI's "Darkchip 1" chipset. Since they've branded their chipsets starting at DC2 and are at DC4, I am having trouble understanding where DC1 fits in. Does anybody know? What are the details on DC1?

Thanks,

Hi-

I see that some projector manufacturers have built 1080p products using TI's "Darkchip 1" chipset. Since they've branded their chipsets starting at DC2 and are at DC4, I am having trouble understanding where DC1 fits in. Does anybody know? What are the details on DC1?

Thanks,

I suspect that TI is grading their chips accodring to CR. I suspect that all current DLPs use the same manufacturing process (this was not true in the past) but that TI now simply tests them and charges more for the ones the test best. DC1 chips are probably have the worst CR and are the cheapest.

I I suspect that all current DLPs use the same manufacturing process (this was not true in the past) but that TI now simply tests them and charges more for the ones the test best.

Is that true ? I thought dither was different between DC2 and D3.

D

Only TI knows for sure. Given the very steep price delta between the DC4 and DC1, it is a bit frustrating to not have more details on what you are paying for. Consider the InFocus 1080P models. There are 4 of them, and the only apparent difference between any of them is the spec. of the DMD chip: IN83-DC4, IN82-DC3, IN81-DC2, X10-DC1. Yet the street price of the IN83 is over double that of the new entry level DC1 X10 model.

Is that true ? I thought dither was different between DC2 and D3.

D

Dazzer,
They are indeed different, as is DC4. DarkChip 4 uses different mirror design and inter mirror lithographic printing, among other changes, to improve CR. The chip backing is also darker, to kill stray light. Its a totally different process that borrows from the DCI chips.

Here's and interesting factoid for you, thats not widely known.......Its assumed thet the first DC4 machine was the C3X1080, followed a few months later by the 11S2. In actual fact the the HT5000, which was released way before that, actually has the DC4 in its early designation "DC3+". Theres some info on that in the $20k forum

Dan Miller at Marantz had once posted that TI was only making DC3 chips. This was at a time before there was a DC4 and many DC3 projectors had lower cost twins that had some unnamed dlp chip in them.

In the past, whenever there was any DLP innovation, TI explained the types of changes that resulted in improvements. They stopped doing this after DC3 for some reason.

CM, if you have any information about the changes that are incorporated in DC4 as opposed to DC3 (and the others) please show me where it can be found. A press release on TI's website merely states: "The DarkChip 4 process was first developed for the high brightness and contrast picture quality requirements of the digital cinema industry, of which DLP Cinema® is the founder and uncontested world leader. The contrast improvements from DarkChip 4 are achieved by advances in mirror design lithography and other proprietary process changes. "

Dan Miller at Marantz had once posted that TI was only making DC3 chips. This was at a time before there was a DC4 and many DC3 projectors had lower cost twins that had some unnamed dlp chip in them.

In the past, whenever there was any DLP innovation, TI explained the types of changes that resulted in improvements. They stopped doing this after DC3 for some reason.

LG, many PJs are, and have often been, made with parts no longer in production. I think you'll find thats what Dan Miller referred to. There are still very large numbers of older DMDs available.

TI did explain the changes from DC3 to DC4, they're even in your quote. The main one, by far, is the darkening of the lithography to raise the CR. Thats it. There's no big revolution. Just a rather modest evolution unfortunately. All very underwhelming.

No PJs have unnamed chips in them, there were, and remain, manufacturers who are more than reluctant to confirm what they use. This is still happening.

LG, many PJs are, and have often been, made with parts no longer in production. I think you'll find thats what Dan Miller referred to. There are still very large numbers of pre older DMDs available.

These were all 1080p PJs that were introduced long after DC3 came to 720p. see, e.g., the Benq W9000 and Benq w10000. They are identical save the w9000 is said to have just "TI Darkchip DMD" and the w10000 is stated as having "TI Darkchip3 DMD." There are other examples of these generic 1080p "TI Darkchip DMD" chips in projectors.

As far as I know, no one was able to answer the question of what was up with these chips.

I also can see no guidance at all from TI about their naming conventions. It looks like the DLP website has not been updated much since 2006.

These were all 1080p PJs that were introduced long after DC3 came to 720p. see, e.g., the Benq W9000 and Benq w10000. They are identical save the w9000 is said to have just "TI Darkchip DMD" and the w10000 is stated as having "TI Darkchip3 DMD." There are other examples of these generic 1080p "TI Darkchip DMD" chips in projectors.

As far as I know, no one was able to answer the question of what was up with these chips.

I also can see no guidance at all from TI about their naming conventions. It looks like the DLP website has not been updated much since 2006.


LG, Youre bang on the money regarding the offence, just looking at the wrong suspect.

Certain companies bought, and continue to buy, numbers of existing stock well after manufacture ceased. It will also happen with DC3s soon enough,

There are no "generic" DC chips, and never have been. Its stamped in black and white on ALL the chips.

You don't need the twisted mind of a New York lawyer to understand why certain companies don't like to advertise whats under the hood. :D

Its not TI at all, its disingenuous marketing scumbags from PJ companies, who are lying by omission.

CM -- Makes sense.

The first .95" 1080P DMD came to market as a DC3. Unless TI explicitly manufactured a DC2 or DC1 variant and sat on them, there was no existing stock of lower spec. 1080P chips. This is unlike the 720P chips which were initially DC1, then DC2, then DC2+, and finally DC3.

Thats right, regarding the DC3s. I didn't mean there were 1080p DC2s etc. I wasn't as clear as I could have been and tidied that up.. The 720 machines were brutal for it, and its now starting with the 1080s.

Some companies are now becoming unwilling to state what they use now that the DC4 has arrived.

There has also been some misinformation spread on this forum too. A while back some idiot posted that these "DarkChip DMD" machines were using smaller cheaper chips and some people bought into it. The smaller chip hasn't been made yet. I specifically remember this cretin called me out on my HT380 review saying it wasn't DC3 as Sim2s site only said something like "TI DMD". This guy had missed the pop out sidebar with the full tech spec that detailed exactly what was what.

Another point worth considering is that at a time when there was only one 1080 DMD some people may not have seen the need to specify as its implicit.

The main point I was making is that T.I are not misleading anyone. If PJ manufacturers mislead or lie they should be taken to task for it.

Its also about time we started seeing honest real world spec numbers, but Im not holding my breath.

The strange thing is that since there were no 'true' DC1 or DC2 1080P chips initially, why is TI actually making (or at least selling) lower spec. 1080P DMDs. Given the relatively small size of the 1080P FP market, it is hard to understand how TI can afford to make 4 different specifications of the 1080P DMD chip. That does make me wonder if the DC2 and DC1 chips are really a different spec, or if as some have suggested they are lower performing DC3 chips.

The strange thing is that since there were no 'true' DC1 or DC2 1080P chips initially, why is TI actually making (or at least selling) lower spec. 1080P DMDs. Given the relatively small size of the 1080P FP market, it is hard to understand how TI can afford to make 4 different specifications of the 1080P DMD chip. That does make me wonder if the DC2 and DC1 chips are really a different spec, or if as some have suggested they are lower performing DC3 chips.

I wonder if, with the low CR numbers on those chips, they are using the older lithographic process for the mirror backings. Its the new processes that pushed the cost up.

The logical thing they could do to me would be to 'skip a step' in the manufacturing process that would result in higher yields and lower costs, without have to have a completely different design. But again, with the low volumes we are talking about, does this make economic sense? How many total 1080P DLP projectors have been sold? My guess would be less than 30,000.

.. The main point I was making is that T.I are not misleading anyone. ...
True. However in recent years they seem to be deliberately vague and reticent to provide details other than the diagonal dimension of the DMD.

There are DC2 1080p chips.

:)

Dan... any insiders scoop on the tech?

Thanks,

Nope. I am probably speaking out-of-turn anyway, but TI has never been comfortable talking about DC designations. They don't "get" marketing.