It looks a couple of new SIM2 units on the way. I didn't see a thread on this yet. One looks like it could be up Art's alley if he gets the upgrade bug on his HT5000. A cool new HT5000HB with dual lamps and some really cool calibration software.

The other is the Domino D60. It says in the video that the target price is 2750 (pounds). So that would put it in the neighborhood of the Planar 8130. The specs look good on it and the new case is very sleek looking. Oh and the coolest part is that it is coming in July. Check out the video here (http://tv.avforums.com/index.php?videoid=25). I wasn't able to find any info on the SIM2 site yet. Most likely they will appear soon though.

Here is a link to specs on the D60. Looks better then what was mentioned in the video. Check it out here (http://www.nshometheater.se/Shop/Index.php) .

Here is a link to specs on the D60. Looks better then what was mentioned in the video. Check it out here (http://www.nshometheater.se/Shop/Index.php) .I see a dynamic iris listed for the D60 (DynamicBlack). I wonder if SIM2 will put that in a version of the HT5000.

--Darin

Interesting. Wish there was information on any changes to the in-between models.

I saw a site mentioning dual iris - one manual and one dynamic. That could be a great solution for someone willing to trade lumens for contrast (i.e. small screen users).
Edit: that's on the D60

Looks like the site I found has taken down the specs. The other feature that stood out for me was Lens Shift. Something we've all had a hard time finding at times on DLP. I was wondering what kind of throw distance range this will have. It might be something flexible for a lot of different setups. If it does have the dual iris option that will be a great feature to have. Sounds like this could be the DLP single chip answer to the VW60 for price and performance.

Based on the video target price, US price would be using direct pounds to dollars, $5500. According to the video, uses the DC2 chip.

As rlhjr34 points out, the D60 sounds very much like the Planar PD8130. DC2, Dynamic Black, vertical lens shift. Even the price is similar.

The site that had the specs on it no longer works. However, I do recall it mentioning that it would have a 15,000:1 CR. I guess that will depend a lot on how you use the IRIS setup. Which chip are they using in the Planar model that is priced similarly to this one? Is it also the DC2? At the $5500 retail price range I figure the 8130 might be it's target competition.

Planar won't state which chip it is, but the general belief is the PD8150 is DC3, while the PD8130 is DC2.

Perhaps in a few days SIM2 will update their site with the official specs, since the video mentioned a July release.

So much of any DLP design is by TI. Most optical engines are out sourced from one or two suppliers. Ditto for the lenses (a few more possible suppliers here).Things like input boards, video processsing chips, CMS, menu structure, the actual lens chosen, are up to the manufacture. With so much in common, many machines will be very similar in specs. specing a much better lens than the others will make that machine more expensive than the others. I suppose, if the prices are close, the details will make the difference. Most of these details would be aimed at the custom installer and calibrator. My guess is that the chip set and driving board is significantly cheaper for the DC2. A good way tolower manufacturing costs. Use the DC3 and a better lens and the machine may go up a few thousand retail. Use the DC4, you get the idea. Breakthroughs in performance among the manufacturers using TI one chip technology? Licensing something like dynamic yada and using it in their machine. Of couse, others can license the yada too. Its making the right choices for the market. And chooosing one parameter regardless of the cost factor may automatically impact negatively on other.

OK, The HB is a consumer version of the Pro(dual lamp) with additional contrast enhancements. I can't get what the contrast and lumen specs are however.

art

... My guess is that the chip set and driving board is significantly cheaper for the DC2. A good way to lower manufacturing costs....

According to Bob Williams at Planar, the processing chips are the same for all current 1080P DMD's.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13667877#post13667877

And the current designs require 2 ASIC chips to control a single 1080P DMD:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13588765#post13588765

Based on that, I have to assume the cost delta is for the actual DMD chip.

I found the specs for the D60 on a different site. Here they are:

We are glad to announce a new entry in our Product line: the Domino D60 projector. This new model have been designed to meet the latest customers´ requirement, as well as budget capability.

The D60 projector will be SIM2´s new FULL HD entry level projector. The D60 has excellent features and solid performance which place it at the top among FULL HD entry-level DLP projector.

MAIN SPECS:



1 x 0,95 1080p DMD chip (1920 x 1080 pixels) to meet the today´s High Definition sources output resolution;
Brightness: 1200 ANSI lumens
Contrast: 15000:1 (Full On/Full Off, to be confirmed)
10 bit video processing which allows superior colour reproduction;
200W dimmable lamp;
motorised vertical lens shift for ease of installation;
Brilliant Color™ Technology for wider and colourful color gamut;
Dual IRIS system: Variable IRIS and Dinamic Black™ that enhances contrast based on the image shown



AVAILABILITY: July 2008

Sim 2 has always used first grade TI chips which is why they offer their no defect warranty. While the D60 uses the DC2 chip it is of the hiest grade selection so it should match the performance of the standard DC3. Add the dynamic iris and you have a nice performer.

The duel lamp 5k. In duel lamp mode you will see an increase in dynamic contrast but a decrease in on/off.
Will the specs equil the single lamp 5k if using one lamp. Should have some info soon enough.

Alan. While the DC2 does indeed perform better in some aspects than the DC3, the DC has an inherent advantage in native CR. I doubt, but haven't checked the specs, to see if the upper range in all performance aspects of the DC2 would overlap or touch the lower range of the same aspects of the DC3.

Sim2 is a good company with a very competent design team. A 15,000 on/off would be competitive or be better than all of the single chip DLPs out there. Lots of additional Sim2 employed features too. Be interesting to see what this dynamic black thing exactly does. Pluses and minuses of course I expect.

Mark there is truth in what you say. Talking to the manufactures the differences between each chip generation is so small your eye would have a hard time detecting a difference but this is where marketing does its job. Each year a new chip is required to drive new sales. This one does XYZ but the old one only did XY. case in point the new Planar looks really good and surpasses some projectors using the DC4 chip. Makes you wonder behind all the marketing what % is truth and what % is hyper bowl:)

from what I have observed and discuss with several manufacturers, there is really very little difference i performance between the DC3 andDC4 though there is some. Better engineering in a DC3 machine could indeed out perform a lesser designed DC4 machine. I'll repeat that the DC2 does do somethings better than the DC3 and that's why Joe Kane says he chose it in his new Samsung, the native CR of the DC3 is significantly better than the DC2. That is the one weak point of the Samsung. A well executed DI or something that does the same thing is needed to get the DC2 up there in low APL scenes. my guess is that Sim2 found it in the Dynamic Black add on. We shall see.

On the surface at least, there seems to be a few similarities between the D60, the Planar PD 8150 and the Samsung A800B. Although verification is more or less lacking depending on the manufacturer and reviews, each seems to use the DC2, each employs a DI, each advertises 1,000 ANSI lumens, I believe each offers Brilliant Colors, both the Planar and Sim2 advertise 15,000:1 on/off CR (measurements taken so far from Planar PD8150 have revealed far less), Samsung (like the Planar PD8130) advertises 10,000:1 on/off CR. Haven't see any measurements for Samsung.

One difference; Planar PD8150 claimed an on/off CR of 15,000:1, but the first review with measurements revealed a native on/off of around 1,700:1 and 4,000:1 to 6,000:1 with DI employed. Initial pro reviews praised the DI for its seamlessness, some early customer reviews have complained about DI "pumping."

Both Samsung and Planar have recommend that you avoid using the DI.

Previous Sim2 models, D80E and HT380, which would seem to be the precursors to the D60, have been measured around 6,000:1 without the use of a Dynamic Iris.

Neither of the three projectors offers a CMS, but reviews have stated that with both the Planar PD8150 and Samsung A800B, although Calibration can bring improvements, they are extremely accurate OOTB. I'm going to go out on a limb based on other similarities and guess the same will be true of the D60.

It'll be curious to see whether Sim2's employment of a DI will improve significantly on the on/off CR previously measured with the D80E and HT380 and whether it will be more seamless than early customer reviews of the Planar PD8150.

More seamless? Okay, you know what I mean.

Previous Sim2 models, D80E and HT380, which would seem to be the precursors to the D60, have been measured around 6,000:1 without the use of a Dynamic Iris.

There doesn't appear to be any mention of Unishape on the D60. According to Sim2 Unishape increases full field contrast.

D

On the surface at least, there seems to be a few similarities between the D60, the Planar PD 8150 and the Samsung A800B. Although verification is more or less lacking depending on the manufacturer and reviews, each seems to use the DC2 ...I think the general feeling is that the 8150 likely uses the DC3, with the 8130 using the DC2.
Neither of the three projectors offers a CMS ...There are probably different kinds of Color Management Systems, but with the Samsung you can do something like 6 measurements and it will auto calibrate from those. A high end meter should probably be used to get reasonable accuracy, but that should be better than many CMSs that require a lot more work by the user. One of the nice things about DLPs is once you know things like the levels for each color (including white), it is mostly just mathematics to setup to one of the color spaces.

--Darin

D. According to JK, use of a high end meter is imperative. The cheap $2K metesr are not accurate enough to get spot on colors.

My SIM2 dealer informs me that the D60 is using the 0.95" DC3 chip, that the CR is rated at 10,000:1 with variable Iris (Dynamic), that verticle lens shift is +60%/-40%, that the TR is 1.84 -2.2:1,that the noise rating is 25dB, and that the lamp is 200w/2500hrs. He says they will list for $4995 and are available at the end of July.

My SIM2 dealer informs me that the D60 is using the 0.95" DC3 chip, that the CR is rated at 10,000:1 with variable Iris (Dynamic), that verticle lens shift is +60%/-40%, that the TR is 1.84 -2.2:1,that the noise rating is 25dB, and that the lamp is 200w/2500hrs. He says they will list for $4995 and are available at the end of July.

Ugh, what about a shorter throw, like the T1 lens than does 1.5?

Mr. Rosner of SIM2 UK says on the video that the D60 uses the DC2. Either he or your dealer is mistaken.

I think the general feeling is that the 8150 likely uses the DC3, with the 8130 using the DC2.

That may be a general feeling, but I don't believe this has been confirmed.

Ugh, what about a shorter throw, like the T1 lens than does 1.5?

Agreed. This just sunk my battleship. I was hoping it would have a short enough throw to work for my screen. Looks like it won't work for me. :(

An on/off with a DI should be 15,000 not 10,000.

It's a lot less expensive than the Planar or Samsung, to state the obvious

According to the NSM it is a DC3...there was a mistake. I have a full cutsheet on it (although not allowed to post it yet).

Jason can you confirm at least the throw range on the D60 is 1.84-2.21? Hopefully the throw is shorter then 1.84.

1.84-2.2x is the throw.

The dealer I spoke to was probably looking at the same cutsheet Jason has.

I confirmed it with the president of Sim2 as well....DC3.

The D60 is a very exciting product - it seems to be Sim2's first offering in the "budget" (insofar as you consider <$5k budget) category to compete against JVC, Sony, Benq, Optoma, etc.

Any info on wheel speed?

D. According to JK, use of a high end meter is imperative. The cheap $2K metesr are not accurate enough to get spot on colors.Mark, if Joe Kane is saying this, he really needs to provide some data to support it. This is a claim made often by those who have a direct economic interest in having people believe that it is true, and he may be simply repeating what such sources have told him.

Also, the phrase "spot-on" can be misleading. We don't need colors that meet specified standards to perfection. All we need is color performance that meets the specified standard within reasonable tolerances. What's "reasonable"? SMPTE specifies accuracy to within 4 Lab dE units, which after a lot of experience seems about right to me.

Also, cost is really not the issue. For example, X-Rite's $800 i1Pro spectroradiometer is more accurate within its specified range of luminance than the $5000 tri-stimulus Hubble. In fact, so far as I can tell the Hubble is no more accurate than X-Rite's own $150 Display2 colorimeter.

The assertion that a very expensive device is "imperative" is an empirical claim that is easily tested, and yet these claims are routinely made without any supporting data. This is frustrating for people like me because the instruments in question are so wildly expensive that it is almost impossible for skeptics to test the validity of these performance claims.

However, what little data I have seen on the subject indicates that the difference between an i1Pro and a high-end spectroradiometer of the type you refer to is around 4 dE units, coincidentally just within the SMPTE recommendation. This is a just-visible difference--not nothing to be sure, but nonetheless very subtle and hardly the night/day difference that Kane's claim suggests.

However, what little data I have seen on the subject indicates that the difference between an i1Pro and a high-end spectroradiometer of the type you refer to is around 4 dE units.Would that be 4 dE units for white/gray, or even out at the primaries? The primaries have relatively low amounts of the other two primary colors and yet those need to be measured fairly accurately for a projector like the Samsung to calibrate itself correctly based on those measurements. Is the i1Pro the meter you use?

At one point Samsung's plan was to have dealers use the i1Pro. After much testing for accuracy/consistency they nixed that plan and I'm guessing it was Joe who nixed it. Joe/Samsung had an economic interest in the i1Pro being sufficient for calibrating these projectors, but decided it wasn't good enough despite that interest. I don't know how far it was off from being good enough given that Joe is picky about colors, but that they didn't go down the road they were headed down as far as approving that meter.

--Darin

I just passed on what Joe Kane and Jim Doolittle said at the Wash DC presentation I went to last year. Tom. Rather than post here, why don't you email Joe with your concern about his meter statement. Tell him, not me.

Would that be 4 dE units for white/gray, or even out at the primaries? The primaries have relatively low amounts of the other two primary colors and yet those need to be measured fairly accurately for a projector like the Samsung to calibrate itself correctly based on those measurements. Is the i1Pro the meter you use?Certainly the primaries and I think white/gray as well. I use the i1Pro to establish an accurate offset and then a colorimeter for subsequent measurements.

At one point Samsung's plan was to have dealers use the i1Pro. After much testing for accuracy/consistency they nixed that plan and I'm guessing it was Joe who nixed it. Joe/Samsung had an economic interest in the i1Pro being sufficient for calibrating these projectors, but decided it wasn't good enough despite that interest. I don't know how far it was off from being good enough given that Joe is picky about colors, but that they didn't go down the road they were headed down as far as approving that meterI am not privy to the internal Samsung/JK discussions that lead them to select instrument standards, so I won't comment on that.

However, the one huge problem with the i1Pro, and the reason I don't use it exclusively, is poor low-light sensitivity.

SMPTE 431-3 also lays out standards for instrumentation, including,
The meter must have a minimum accuracy of ±0.5 cd/m² (±0.2 fL) for white field measurements and ±0.007 cd/m² (±0.002 fL) for black field measurements. The chromaticity must be measured with a spectroradiometer with a minimum accuracy of ±0.002 for the measurement of the x and y chromaticity coordinates at luminances above 10 cd/m². Color temperature meters do not have sufficient accuracy to meet these requirements for the measurement of either luminance or chrominance. In all cases, the measurements are made of light reflected from the screen. Therefore, the measuring instrument must be pointed at the screen when the measurement is made. ("Color Processing for Digital Cinema 4: Measurements and Tolerances", SMPTE Journal, Maier, Thomas, Issue: 2007 11/12 November/December).
The i1Pro would definitely NOT meet that luminance standard. Its low-light sensitivity is no where near that good. It probably wouldn't meet the chromaticity standard either, though it would come reasonably close, which was my point. The i1Pro is not a reference instrument, but the difference between its performance (assuming adequate luminance) and a reference instrument (e.g., Minolta CS-2000 or Photo Research PR-670) is very small, not catastrophically large as it is sometimes portrayed.

I just ordered a D60 to review...they should be in next week if all goes as planned.

I just passed on what Joe Kane and Jim Doolittle said at the Wash DC pretion I went to last year. Tom. Rather than post here, why don't you email Joe with your concern about his meter statement. Tell him, not me.Mark, I didn't mean to sound like I was shooting the messenger. It's just that this issue comes up often, almost always in a vacuum of actual data, and I was expressing frustration about that.

Certainly the primaries and I think white/gray as well.Maybe there is a problem with the i1Pro I have, but I don't trust it for measuring primaries (and other stuff) based on measurements I've taken with it. I definitely don't trust if for those with normal image sizes. It could be that it has a problem measuring the low levels of the "other" primaries while trying to report on one, since the amount of the other colors is a big factor in where a primary sits and those other colors will tend to be at low light levels.
However, the one huge problem with the i1Pro, and the reason I don't use it exclusively, is poor low-light sensitivity.I agree that it is really bad down low.
The i1Pro is not a reference instrument, but the difference between its performance (assuming adequate luminance) and a reference instrument (e.g., Minolta CS-2000 or Photo Research PR-670) is very small, not catastrophically large as it is sometimes portrayed.Have you compared measuring primaries with an i1Pro to one of those with digital displays? I have an i1Pro with Colorfacts and would love to trust it, but I don't even after spending money to send it in for calibration. I put a lot of money into this so my incentive would be to have it be accurate, but based on what I've seen and conversations I've had with other people, I really don't trust it. I might trust it for CRTs, but after an ISF person calibrated a friend's digital projector with one of the Photo Research units (about $20k at the time I believe) I measured it with my i1Pro and the grayscale showed significantly enough different that I wasn't going to trust the i1Pro there. I have had extensive discussions with Bill Cushman of WideScreenReview about this subject matter and I know that he would love it if less expensive measurement equipment worked better. He has a background in test equipment and I'm sure he wouldn't trust an i1Pro from what he has seen and heard from people who have compared to the better (and expensive) units. I think that if an i1Pro was calibrated with a high end unit on the particular display where the calibration is going to happen that it could work well, but from what I have heard one of the problems is how much it differs from a higher end meter just display to display.
Mark, I didn't mean to sound like I was shooting the messenger. It's just that this issue comes up often, almost always in a vacuum of actual data, and I was expressing frustration about that.I understand the frustration and I'm not providing any actual numbers/data either. Just experiences I've had with my i1Pro and discussions I've had. If you have data with the actual displays used (like were they CRTs or digitals) that show what a high end meter reported for primaries and how much different an i1Pro reported, I would be interested in seeing it.

--Darin

I understand the frustration and I'm not providing any actual numbers/data either. Just experiences I've had with my i1Pro and discussions I've had. If you have data with the actual displays used (like were they CRTs or digitals) that show what a high end meter reported for primaries and how much different an i1Pro reported, I would be interested in seeing it.This post has the only actual data on an i1Pro/PR-670 that I've ever seen.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12020250&postcount=15

I have done extensive testing comparing the i1Pro with several affordable colorimeters with varied results.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=958099

You should have your i1Pro calibrated. It sounds to me like something is wrong with it. It should be fine for primary measurements.

I understand the frustration and I'm not providing any actual numbers/data either. Just experiences I've had with my i1Pro and discussions I've had. If you have data with the actual displays used (like were they CRTs or digitals) that show what a high end meter reported for primaries and how much different an i1Pro reported, I would be interested in seeing it.

Attached is a comparison that user Zoyd put together comparing the performance of some popular (and not) pods on a plasma. I know Tom has a similar thread. No, no 20K spectroradiometer was included (the i1 was considered the ref) but I recall the debates about how one could never achieve an accurate calibration without using a $20K spectroradiometer (one in particular) IIRC, that argument was put forth and defended by those who purchased and operated a business that happened to use that specific $20K spectroradiometer. It certainly was a differentiator and barrier to entry to his peers and competitors.

Dave

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=844188

You should have your i1Pro calibrated. It sounds to me like something is wrong with it. It should be fine for primary measurements.I sent it in for calibration with GM. Pretty sure it went to Europe and cost me $300 or so (I don't remember the exact figure). What reasons do you have for saying it should be fine for primary measurements? I'm pretty sure Jeff Meier was getting more light than most people because he was pointing at the projector and using a diffuser. Are you saying that you believe the i1Pro is accurate for primaries even off screens as normally setup (like 10-12 ft-lamberts for white)?

--Darin

If you are going to be a professional calibrator, then like any other professional certain training, experience and tools are required. Attending a day and one half ISF course and spending say three grand on equipment just won't cut it, despite what Joe Silver might say. One can shop wisely Roger's signal generator, a good light meter a calibrated kane reference source, the big ticket, a ref colorimeter, tripod, lap top. About $25K. Them off to school at sencore for 3 days of hands on. $1800 plus travel. You don't have to use sencore stuff either to greatly benefit from their at campus in depth calibration training.

1.84-2.2x is the throw.

What a shame. Don't they realize that an inexpensive pj like this would be very popular in small rooms, where a short throw would be needed. Their other, more expensive pjs, have a min throw of 1.5; why not this one?

What reasons do you have for saying it should be fine for primary measurements?Hundreds of hours of experience on dozens of displays--front projectors, flat panels, and CRTs. The light levels at 75% or 100% stim are more than adequate, though blue can be a little dogdy.

One can shop wisely Roger's signal generator, a good light meter a calibrated kane reference source, the big ticket, a ref colorimeter, tripod, lap top. About $25K.A reference spectroradiometer of the type SMPTE recommends is more than that by itself. A Minolta CS-2000 is $27K.

Here is some information about the D60:

/Chuck

TOM! That's a just introducted test instrument and one I would think that would put most any calibrator in the latest and greatest equipment class. I assume it can also be had at a discount but its too early to call some of the suppliers. The low levels capabilities of the machine look great for "traditional" gray scale calibrations especially multipoint calibrations using say the Radiance, though multipoint certainly wouldn't be traditional. However, with the Samsung which automatically sets the gray scale after the specified color and white xy measurements, the low scale capabilities of this meter I don't think would be necessary. I am sur if one excludes lap top costs, every thing one needs including a first class spectrometer perhaps used could be purchased for under $20K and including this new machine unde $30K. Not cheap but if one wants to be a full time calibrator like JD or KW, not an excessive investment to ask for.

This looks to be a very interesting projector from SIM2. I am sure that they will sell a lot of them at that price.

As many have noted, the specs are very similar to the Planar. I suspect it uses the same basic light engine. Let's see what kind of lens and processing Sim2 put on this for this price. I have to admit to being very surprised that Sim2 is competing on price. Good news for us all.

If you are going to be a professional calibrator, then like any other professional certain training, experience and tools are required. Attending a day and one half ISF course and spending say three grand on equipment just won't cut it, despite what Joe Silver might say. One can shop wisely Roger's signal generator, a good light meter a calibrated kane reference source, the big ticket, a ref colorimeter, tripod, lap top. About $25K. Them off to school at sencore for 3 days of hands on. $1800 plus travel. You don't have to use sencore stuff either to greatly benefit from their at campus in depth calibration training.


So after having spent about 30 grand on calibration equipment and training, the end result might be something that a TRAINED eye might compare to a calibration done with a sub $1k i1pro and information learned from a careful study of the calibration forums here on AVS and then conclude that maybe there is something that might look a little different between them.

I guess if your business is calibration, you should have the best possible equipment, but, even then, it is hard to image that even most professional calibrators would consider that kind of investment one that they will see much return on.

Not true. If I am going to spend money on a calibration,i would want the best possible.There are professionals out thee such as Ken W. and Jin D., who have the experience and equipment to give one the best. Tom has the capability to be one of the best too. I think the problem with many calibrators is that they take the ISF course and buy some lesser colorimeter and think they can give close to the best. generally, such folks calibrate as asecondary source of income. The rates charged by the best are reasonable and comparable to the part timers. The biggest differential is the consumer paying travel expenses and that's why the best try to set up multiple jobs in the one area, with many shaing theexpenses of travel. Its like getting the best heart surgeon, lots of surgeons are out there. But if i needed heart surgery, I'd seek out the best and pay for it. For the average Joe, a local calibrator would probably make things better. But is that what you want?

One doesn't need a calibration. Its just the level of peformance that one wants and wether one can afford it and choses to pay for it.

I hope that your comparison of the importance of display calibration to heart surgery was meant to be ironic in some way.

I have no idea what a professional calibrator with $30k of equipment and training charges. I also have no idea what someone like Tom H. charges. I am a DIYer at heart, just because I enjoy learning and doing new things. Still, I suspect that Tom's calibration would be just as good, if not better than anyone else out there.

Please note I am not trying to start a flame war here, but doesn't this box look eerily similar to the Benq W20000? The features are the same, such as dual iris, with one dynamic, DC3, motorized vertical shift, manual focus and zoom. And most of the physical specs are the same, including the lens throw ratio(1.84->2.2), the weight (21.2 lbs), and the dimensions are the same down to the tenth of an inch (19.4 x 7.1 x 16.5 inches). Even the airflow pattern is the same.

Please note I am not trying to start a flame war here, but doesn't this box look eerily similar to the Benq W20000? The features are the same, such as dual iris, with one dynamic, DC3, motorized vertical shift, manual focus and zoom. And most of the physical specs are the same, including the lens throw ratio(1.84->2.2), the weight (21.2 lbs), and the dimensions are the same down to the tenth of an inch (19.4 x 7.1 x 16.5 inches). Even the airflow pattern is the same.

Something tells me that it is not made in Italy like the other Sim2s either. So what? I expect that SIM2 will provide excellent service.

I assume it can also be had at a discount but its too early to call some of the suppliers.If it can, then please let me know.

Please note I am not trying to start a flame war here, but doesn't this box look eerily similar to the Benq W20000? The features are the same, such as dual iris, with one dynamic, DC3, motorized vertical shift, manual focus and zoom. And most of the physical specs are the same, including the lens throw ratio(1.84->2.2), the weight (21.2 lbs), and the dimensions are the same down to the tenth of an inch (19.4 x 7.1 x 16.5 inches). Even the airflow pattern is the same.

How does the "typical" lamp life compare ?

This has been a traditional Sim2 strength at around 4000 hours on the Domino's. The D60 spec indicates 2500 hours.

D

How does the "typical" lamp life compare ?

This has been a traditional Sim2 strength at around 4000 hours on the Domino's. The D60 spec indicates 2500 hours.

D

200W, 2000/3000 hours (Normal/Economic mode) is listed for the W20000 lamp

Surprised that a company with a good reputation like SIM's would just rebadge another companies product. Business must be slow.

Surprised that a company with a good reputation like SIM's would just rebadge another companies product. Business must be slow.

The practice is common through-out sectors of manufactured goods regardless of reputation. Frankly, you're hard pressed to find a company that doesn't do it.

Maybe they have, no doubt with some added tweaks, but they don't appear to have added the premium Runco do/did.

Gary

Maybe they have, no doubt with some added tweaks, but they don't appear to have added the premium Runco do/did.

Gary


A bit like Cineversum, Meridan and Pioneer do with the JVC ? It's just hard to find "tweaks" are done in reality.

D

Please note I am not trying to start a flame war here, but doesn't this box look eerily similar to the Benq W20000? The features are the same, such as dual iris, with one dynamic, DC3, motorized vertical shift, manual focus and zoom. And most of the physical specs are the same, including the lens throw ratio(1.84->2.2), the weight (21.2 lbs), and the dimensions are the same down to the tenth of an inch (19.4 x 7.1 x 16.5 inches). Even the airflow pattern is the same.

I thought the exact same thing and funnily enough it was the IR sensor that first clued me in...and then the specs where the clincher.

Frankly i think that's something of a compliment to the BenQ and it will be most interesting to see if Sim2 make any enhancements to it.

The practice is common through-out sectors of manufactured goods regardless of reputation. Frankly, you're hard pressed to find a company that doesn't do it.

I didnt know that.

I thought most manufacturers, like Sharp, Panasonic, JVC, made their own projectors. Some components may be outsourced, but not just identicle rebadges.

I thought the exact same thing and funnily enough it was the IR sensor that first clued me in...and then the specs where the clincher.

Frankly i think that's something of a compliment to the BenQ and it will be most interesting to see if Sim2 make any enhancements to it.

I too take this as a complement to the BenQ. The lens was the first thing that got me wondering, and then as I started checking the specs it became clear.

This would not be the first time a top tier pj manufacture sold what was basically a re-badge. Marantz did it with the VP4001, which was a Sharp built machine.

didnt the w20000 have vidi lighting and HQV though? So if this is indeed a rebage it would seem some features have been dropped for more money!!

Unless those features remain of course.

A bit like Cineversum, Meridan and Pioneer do with the JVC ? It's just hard to find "tweaks" are done in reality.

D

Yup, just like with the JVC, except some seem to charge quite a bit extra for the rebadge and a shiny new case. $5500 seems a good price to me...

Runco apparently did in some cases make changes to the donor machine, so it would be interesting to know of there are any made here. Sim2 aren't making any claims at all in that regard so lets not be too harsh in jumping to any conclusions and pigeon holing them along with the others just yet, especially at this price point.

Gary

Feels like a Jaguar S-type. A nice car, not not a real Jaguar.

I don't know the details on this particular, but I do know it is not made in Italy with the higher end Sim2's. As far as the W20000 specs...they do look similar, but, somehow I don't think they are the same as you'd think if it was a BenQ it would be MORE, but actually it is a good amount LESS than a W20000. Basically everything at this point is speculation.

I don't know the details on this particular, but I do know it is not made in Italy with the higher end Sim2's. As far as the W20000 specs...they do look similar, but, somehow I don't think they are the same as you'd think if it was a BenQ it would be MORE, but actually it is a good amount LESS than a W20000. Basically everything at this point is speculation.

In any event, I have one on order to review so we'll know more soon.

depends where one lives, but here in the uk the Benq 20K will be cheaper by £300 ($600 ish)

Jason. Speculation is indeed what many many of the threads in this forum are all about. :)

BTW You da man. :) Glad you and your family are doing well.

depends where one lives, but here in the uk the Benq 20K will be cheaper by £300 ($600 ish)

Good point...

Speculation yes, but in this case it is based on some actual data. Time will tell.

Please note I am not trying to start a flame war here, but doesn't this box look eerily similar to the Benq W20000? The features are the same, such as dual iris, with one dynamic, DC3, motorized vertical shift, manual focus and zoom. And most of the physical specs are the same, including the lens throw ratio(1.84->2.2), the weight (21.2 lbs), and the dimensions are the same down to the tenth of an inch (19.4 x 7.1 x 16.5 inches). Even the airflow pattern is the same.

If this is the case it is a blessing in disguise. Take what is a very good projector (W20000), put the design/technology with a company that actually takes care of its customers (Sim2), drop the retail price, lastly redesign the case to something more visually appealing and it is a winning combination. Not to mention AVS is a Sim2 dealer and not a BenQ dealer, so now you can buy this technology from AVS.

I wonder if the D60 will fix the 1080p/24 fps bug in the W5000/W20000, and whether Sim2 will have any control over the firmware to more quickly address the couple of problems that still exist in the W5000/W20000. (All assuming the D60 is some form of the W20000.)

What a shame. Don't they realize that an inexpensive pj like this would be very popular in small rooms, where a short throw would be needed. Their other, more expensive pjs, have a min throw of 1.5; why not this one?

There are as many if not more people who will appreciate having the longer throw so the projector doesn't have to be directly overhead. If you can't have it both ways (i.e. multiple lens options as on the more expensive SIM2 projectors), then long TR is better than short. If the projector needs to be close, use a smaller image size.

Not true. If I am going to spend money on a calibration,i would want the best possible.There are professionals out thee such as Ken W. and Jin D., who have the experience and equipment to give one the best. Tom has the capability to be one of the best too. I think the problem with many calibrators is that they take the ISF course and buy some lesser colorimeter and think they can give close to the best. generally, such folks calibrate as asecondary source of income. The rates charged by the best are reasonable and comparable to the part timers. The biggest differential is the consumer paying travel expenses and that's why the best try to set up multiple jobs in the one area, with many shaing theexpenses of travel. Its like getting the best heart surgeon, lots of surgeons are out there. But if i needed heart surgery, I'd seek out the best and pay for it. For the average Joe, a local calibrator would probably make things better. But is that what you want?

One doesn't need a calibration. Its just the level of peformance that one wants and wether one can afford it and choses to pay for it.

Using a plasma display SPD for reference (the common denominator in the limited data I’ve seen posted here), The $23K PR was said to have a dE~2 (Average for RGBCMYY) Comparisons of the $23K PR to the <$1K i1 showed an average dE of 3.3. Comparison of an ~1K i1 to a <$100 filtered photo-diode array pod showed and average dE of 3.1.

If one accepts the HVS limit to be dE 4-5, (for short-term, non-comparative, motion video) then these reported inaccuracies of the <$20K probes/pods seem blown out of proportion to me. Of course it can be argued that these errors would all additive and be much larger than dE 5. It could be argued subtractive at dE2-3. About the same as a $23K PR.

Personally, I’m kinda offended at the notion that a DIYer can’t ever achieve an ‘accurate’ (dE<5) calibration without using a spectroradiometer. And that we’re too naïve or not sophisticated enough to know that.

Dave

... If the projector needs to be close, use a smaller image size.

Or just get a different projector.

Not to mention AVS is a Sim2 dealer and not a BenQ dealer, so now you can buy this technology from AVS.

Note that you can purchase both the W5000 and W20000 from AVS, who are authorized BenQ dealers. I recently obtained pricing information on these from AVS.

Note that you can purchase both the W5000 and W20000 from AVS, who are authorized BenQ dealers. I recently obtained pricing information on these from AVS.

That is strange, I tried to get a quote for the W5000 and was told they don't sell it.

We do sell it. BUT, our availability is thin because of the channel we get it through. Plus, BenQ is, well, whored out the door by so many places that often we just don't bother. People want our knowledge, support, return policy, etc... but we cannot always provide that as we want to when we are competeing with random other places. In any event, we technically are authorized to sell BenQ (and virtually anything else).

I've get about 4-5:1 ratio with Dynamic Black on over native with it off. With iris closed or open.

I've get about 4-5:1 ratio with Dynamic Black on over native with it off. With iris closed or open.

wow, thats a contrast miracle right there:D (wrong thread i guess)

wow, thats a contrast miracle right there:D (wrong thread i guess)

Oops. That was pointed out to me. Wrong thread. Too many pages open at once. My apologies.

Something sounded strange. :)

This looks to be a very interesting projector from SIM2. I am sure that they will sell a lot of them at that price.

As many have noted, the specs are very similar to the Planar. I suspect it uses the same basic light engine. Let's see what kind of lens and processing Sim2 put on this for this price. I have to admit to being very surprised that Sim2 is competing on price. Good news for us all.

It does not use the same light engine. We do not OEM the engine to anyone, and the PD8130 & PD8150 is our design. We implement DynamicBlack in the light engine, not the lens.

HI Jason, did you right a review? I could not find it.

Are there any reviews anywhere on the net for this PJ? You'd think there would be some talk about it since it was released back in July but maybe it's not all that since SIM2 is not manufacturing this in Italy, I believe it's a BenQ clone.

I ended up not doing a review of the D60. There is not a lot of talk about it.

The HT5000HB is a super bright version of the HT5000E, but doesn't have some key features for HT (no 1.3, lower contrast, etc...).