While I have a separate, modest two channel system (Genesis 6.1 speakers, VTL ST-150 tube amplifier, Theta Casablanca III with Xtreme DACs), I cannot listen to this system late at night. For that I need to go to my soundproofed home theater.

I've been trying to enjoy 2 channel sound in there, but it's just not gelling for me. I currently use Aerial LR5's, a Denon AVP A1HDCI (Denon's latest and greatest) and Bryston 7B monoblocks. Also have Aerials SW-12 sub, but I recently took the vinyl plunge and am running the Denon pre in 'direct mode' which means I can't use the subwoofer. I love the dynamics of the Aerials but find the mid bass ultra fat and high midrange recessed (can barely hear vocalists in certain recordings). All this without room correction of course.

I've taken a chance and ordered Aerial Model 9s. At the very least I'll get low frequencies, but I'm hoping that they are voiced better for music.

I've also purchased 2 Theta Citadel 1.5's. They don't have the same amount of power as my Brystons but the Model 9's are easier to drive so it should be OK. I'm also considering a 2 channel pre-amp (have my eye on Audio Research Ref 3) and a better phono stage. Big slippery slope.

But what I've really been hearing a lot about is Magico's V3 speakers. Apparently these are simply amazing. Of course they wouldn't match with my Aerial speakers and they're not cheap (25k) but I wonder if they'd be worth physically moving them in and out of position (for home theater versus music listening).

Anyone have any thoughts?

All of the speakers made by Alon are wonderful, starting with the Magico Mini all the way up. He knows what he is doing and how to build speakers. His factory is not too far from here in Oakland. My buddy grellberg knows him very well and raves about his speakers all of which have won many awards.

All of the speakers made by Alon are wonderful, starting with the Magico Mini all the way up. He knows what he is doing and how to build speakers. His factory is not too far from here in Oakland. My buddy grellberg knows him very well and raves about his speakers all of which have won many awards.

I agree with this. I have been extremely impressed each time I have heard Magico's

BTW, there is a physician living in San Francisco that has Alon's Ultimate speaker which is a 7 way speaker. If you do a google search of this speaker ($229K) you can find photos and details of his room.
Grellberg has been there to hear it

The LR5 is supposed to be a pretty good speaker (I haven't heard it, just read about it). If it is sounding bloated and recessed in the midrange then it may be a room interaction issue. If you can try any other speaker in your room to see if the bloated and recessed issue remains I think that will be more helpful than just spending money on new speakers and just hoping they work out for you.

Take some measurements in your room if possible so you can see what the problem areas are and of course try some different speaker positions. You may have already done this, but you haven't said so. (I hope this doesn't sound like I think you're an idiot or anything!)

Another speaker with really nice, non-bloated bass is the Salon 2 - I heard it recently and was quite impressed with the bass quality.

I may have a room issue to a certain degree, but I think Aerial is known for generous midbass. My Von Schweikerts were not problematic in the same room.

I am also interested in the new Revel Salon 2 (another recently highly reviewed speaker). Funny that you mention it has non-bloated bass - the only Revel I've heard (a much lower end model) was extremely bloated.

I am going to try the Aerial Model 9 since I've heard it's better and it will still match my center and surrounds.

But I will be auditioning the V3 soon. I was at a local dealer today who has a pair.. :-)

you will be smitten by those V3's. Bring your check book.

Three thoughts come to mind before you make big changes...

1) Where are the LR5s placed in the room? They really need a subwoofer, but they also have some midbass and HF adjustments on the back to help with varying placements. I would suggest experimenting with these.

2) You could try another SW-12 where you could then run the subwoofer output to 1 channel of the sub, and run the respective L & R line out to the second channel on the subwoofer which would allow them to play during direct mode.

3) I know many consider it blasphemy, but have you tried using standard STEREO mode rather than direct? This would allow the Audyssey EQ manage the system. Depending on where you set the microphones for the measurements, this could give you some very good results. I'm not sure if your AVP has had any firmware updates, but some of the other Denon models have, so be sure to get any updates to allow Audyssey to operate optimally. I have found Audyssey hit-and-miss. A little tweaking of crossover settings and subwoofer and sometimes other channel levels afterward can yeild a very good result, especially in tougher rooms or when you don't have the tools to do further optimization.

The Model 9 is a rather nice sounding speaker, so if you hear similar, start looking at the setup and the room.

Go hear the V3's, Alon is doing some cool stuff that other manufacturers are not. (like making his own drivers at cost no object levels). Look at the bass response as measured (ack, did I say that?) by S pile. Response below 20hz in a small box.

Three thoughts come to mind before you make big changes...

1) Where are the LR5s placed in the room? They really need a subwoofer, but they also have some midbass and HF adjustments on the back to help with varying placements. I would suggest experimenting with these.

2) You could try another SW-12 where you could then run the subwoofer output to 1 channel of the sub, and run the respective L & R line out to the second channel on the subwoofer which would allow them to play during direct mode.

3) I know many consider it blasphemy, but have you tried using standard STEREO mode rather than direct? This would allow the Audyssey EQ manage the system. Depending on where you set the microphones for the measurements, this could give you some very good results. I'm not sure if your AVP has had any firmware updates, but some of the other Denon models have, so be sure to get any updates to allow Audyssey to operate optimally. I have found Audyssey hit-and-miss. A little tweaking of crossover settings and subwoofer and sometimes other channel levels afterward can yeild a very good result, especially in tougher rooms or when you don't have the tools to do further optimization.

The Model 9 is a rather nice sounding speaker, so if you hear similar, start looking at the setup and the room.

Hi Mark,

Thanks for responding. To address some of your suggestions:

My room is 14’ wide, but I have an 11 wide screen so I have to squeeze the speakers in on the sides. Hardly ideal. This affected my choice of speakers – the flexibility of the LR5s (with rear switches) was attractive. That with Audyssey room correction does go a long way. However, for 2 channel listening I move the speakers out in front of my screen (i.e. away from side walls and further out from the front wall). I certainly get better results (more depth for one thing), but too much mid-bass for my tastes and upper mids are recessed.

I did take ownership of Model 9’s yesterday and started the break-in process. It’s certainly not fair to judge them at this point, but found myself down there for a few songs. First impressions are that it sounds much more open and involving. The bass isn’t articulate yet, but it’s also pretty strong. I’m worried that it’ll bloom and that I’ll still need good old fashioned bass traps or something to make them workable when by-passing Audyssey.

It is my understanding that one should stay far away from Denon AVP firmware updates (this came from Denon themselves) as the firmware update process offers more risk than benefit.

I’ve played around a fair bit with Audyssey and agree that you can get great results with a little experimentation. It’s only because I’ve discovered this thing called vinyl records that I want to get a smoother overall response without electronic room correction.

Ian

My best friend bought a pair of V3's earlier this year and has them set up in a fully treated listening room. They are, without question, the best sounding speakers I've ever heard but they take quite a while (3-500 hrs) to start sounding their best. Oh, and last I heard, there is about a 1 year (yes, 1 year) back order on them. :eek::mad: And Alon told my friend's dealer that he may stop taking orders for the V3's altogether so that he can catch up. The reason for the backlog is that he refuses to speed up or outsource any of the V3's production. It seems Alon's total perfectionism can sometimes be a double edged sword for those who want to own his $25K masterpieces but don't have the Zen-like patience it will take to wait for them. :o

Magico is the "hot" high end speaker right now.

but looked what happend to Peak Consult, VSA, etc. over the past few years after the buzz dies down. watch out.

disclaimer: i have not heard the Magicos, but its pretty amazing they sell a USA based monitor for 23k. and people climb all over Wilson for being expensive??

But looked what happend to Peak Consult, VSA, etc. over the past few years after the buzz dies down.

Except this time, the Magico's actually live up to the hype. IMHO, the V3's are the best 'conventional'-driver speakers available for under @$50K.
Are they OMG!!! Its night & day! better than other similarly priced, well designed speakers (of which, there are surprisingly few)? No. Are they noticeably better? IMO, yes.

i forgot to add Evolution Acoustics as well.

i'm just saying, before i plunk down 25k i want to know that the company will survive for more than 5 years down the road. i will say, the Mini looks utterly fantastic---beautiful.

dicey- i'm in SoCal too. we should get together for a listening session or something.

Except this time, the Magico's actually live up to the hype. IMHO, the V3's are the best 'conventional'-driver speakers available for under @$50K.
Are they OMG!!! Its night & day! better than other similarly priced, well designed speakers (of which, there are surprisingly few)? No. Are they noticeably better? IMO, yes.

"better" in what way? There are many speakers out there and no 2 sound the same so it's hard to say which is "better" since much of what you like is personal taste. You can talk about "accuracy" but unless you know what the original recording is supposed to sound like it's not always easy to tell what is most accurate.

I guess by "better" I mean that when they are fed a high quality recording, they sound absolutely spectacular. They can completely fill the room with a wall-to-wall, floor-to-ceiling soundstage, they have truly incredible transparency and a have a dynamic realism (above @35Hz) that can be scary. But the icing on the cake is that even with all of their resolution capacity, they don't make so-so recordings sound any worse then they actually are. By that I mean, you would think that any "hi-res" speaker would amplify the imperfections in every recording (and most do) but while the V3's will definitely let you know that you are listening to a less-than-amazing recording, they always seem to bring out the best in it. So not only are the V3's capable of "super high resolution", they also possess what is in my opinion the rarest of speaker traits, which is "ultra low distortion", and I believe it is this rare combination which gives them their simultaneous 'revealing yet forgiving' quality. I guess the word "better" was a little vague after all. ;)

I do look forward to hearing the larger "middle of the line" Magicos one day. If I could hear the Ultimates too then that would be sweet, although they are more for people in a different income bracket than me!

I do look forward to hearing the larger "middle of the line" Magicos one day. If I could hear the Ultimates too then that would be sweet, although they are more for people in a different income bracket than me!

well the guy down here who has them is an MD (reproductive endocrinologist) and I thought they were in the same bracket as you surgeons up in the GTA ;)

You must have missed a zero or 2 in the earnings comparison.

I've only heard the Mini IIs, but I felt they were too bright sounding... It could have been the lack of high frequency room treatments in the listening space though.

Q, how are you liking your Salon 2? I had a brief listen and thought the bass was quite impressive. Very detailed with a real sense of power. Are they working out in your room?

Q, how are you liking your Salon 2? I had a brief listen and thought the bass was quite impressive. Very detailed with a real sense of power. Are they working out in your room?

Yes, very well. I'm waiting for the last two to arrive. The ones that arrived last week arrived damaged, so I sent them back. I really want to get everything finished so I can just enjoy the room...

My running list of things needed for room completion:

The remaining two Salon2 speakers for the 7.2 setup
The final preprocessor (Denon AVP)
The replacement Sim2 C3X1080 - the second replacement unit...
Projector Calibration as long as the new Acoustically Transparent screen (installed the week before last) and replacement PJ are both in working order. I can't test the AT screen until the PJ arrives, since I can't trigger the screen without it currently...
The new Universal Denon player when it releases (w/ Blu-Ray)

I'm not making any major changes in my setup for a long long time after this...

The final preprocessor (Denon AVP)


It's good to know that you have finally decided to go for this one. :) It's the most complete unit out there right now without a ridiculous price tag.

For what it's worth, I just did a comparison between the Denon AVP and an Audio Research REF 3. Fed both the same analog audio signal, volume matched and compared away. To be fair, I have determined that I have some room issues that I need to address, but I think I was still able to tell that the Denon held its own (in its pure Direct mode). Very impressive.

For what it's worth, I just did a comparison between the Denon AVP and an Audio Research REF 3. Fed both the same analog audio signal, volume matched and compared away. To be fair, I have determined that I have some room issues that I need to address, but I think I was still able to tell that the Denon held its own (in its pure Direct mode). Very impressive.

Really??? You are saying the new Denon home theater processor sounds as good with music as one of the best 2 channel tube pre amps that exists? I find this extremely hard to believe.

Why is it one of the best 2-channel tube preamps that exists?

Why is it one of the best 2-channel tube preamps that exists?

the answer is unequivocally "Yes"

Best preamp I have ever owned

That's nice, but it doesn't answer the question... At all...

facetious (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/facetious)

Main Entry:
fa·ce·tious
Pronunciation:
\fə-ˈsē-shəs\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle French facetieux, from facetie jest, from Latin facetia
Date:
1599

1 : joking or jesting often inappropriately : waggish <just being facetious>
2 : meant to be humorous or funny : not serious <a facetious remark>

Really??? You are saying the new Denon home theater processor sounds as good with music as one of the best 2 channel tube pre amps that exists? I find this extremely hard to believe.

Well, logic tells me it *must* be better, but I could not hear the difference – at least not with my existing setup. I normally hear differences between amps, speakers, speaker cable, interconnects (sometimes), but in a different room. I think my current room has some issues with bloated bass. That being said, I listened for differences in other areas (dynamics, detail, etc) and was hard pressed to find any. I was using a Classe CD player, feeding the balanced outs into the CD input of the Ref 3, and the single ended outs into my Denon. Denon’s balanced outputs were fed into the processor input (unity gain) of the Ref 3 so in both cases the DACs were the Classe and I could switch back and forth easily.

Amps were Bryston 7B monoblocks, MIT AVT1 cable, Aerial Model 9 speakers.

I expected a huge difference.

That's nice, but it doesn't answer the question... At all...

well how about you audition the preamp and then come back and answer your own question.

IMO you are comparing apples to oranges with the Denon and the ARC Ref 3

well how about you audition the preamp and then come back and answer your own question.

IMO you are comparing apples to oranges with the Denon and the ARC Ref 3

It is very simple. He said it is "one of the best," so I'm simply asking what makes it one of the best...

Whatever I think isn't all that important in the context of my question (your question also assumes I will agree with him and others who think it is one of the best...). You are being needlessly cantankerous.

BTW, if you send me one OB, I'll also give my opinion as well, though it still doesn't impact why he feels it is "one of the best."

BTW, if you send me one OB, I'll also give my opinion as well, though it still doesn't impact why he feels it is "one of the best."

well arguably it is but don't count on me sending you mine.

a simple audition will give you the answer in a very short time

well arguably it is but don't count on me sending you mine.

a simple audition will give you the answer in a very short time

Are you willing to give me your entire audio system if I don't agree?

Are you willing to give me your entire audio system if I don't agree?
with all of the bad luck you have had recently in new component purchases I would be nuts to send anything your way for fear it would become jinxed;)

Since I was the one who claims it is one of the best, I guess I should explain myself. I had listened to various 2 channel pre-amps and SSP's and I find the REF 3 to be up with the best in terms of detail, dynamics, bass authority, and an overall sense of connection to the music. Some people, including myself, own different 2 channel pre-amps but I have yet to ever meet someone who had anything but very positive things to say about the REF 3.

I cannot speak about the Denon processor personally but I would really be surprised to hear it sound anything like the REF3. YMMV