It would be great if one of the high end manufacturer designed an all digital pre/pro for those of us who are establishing a system from scratch.

Forget S Video, RCA, Component, composite and make a new pre/pro balanced component with 7 HDMi 1.3b in and 2 HDMi out.

HDMi 1.3 can pass everything, SACD, Uncompressed Blu Ray new codec and video, I love it.

That will allow manufacturer to spend money on key components, design and features and make a very clean units without hundreds of input (ever seen the back of Denon AVP1)

How could I start a poll!

Its a terrible marketing idea IMO, great way to reduce your market share in an already declining market.

"make a new pre/pro balanced component "

Why balanced if it's all digital?

Balanced outputs

Total suicide for any high end company, and thats why it wont happen.

Total suicide for any high end company, and thats why it wont happen.

Can you elaborate? I'm curious.

Cleaner, and smaller. :)

I suspect we'd be more likely to see something like this from Onkyo or Denon first, and it'd be geared to midrange buyers, who don't own mega buck sources and aren't tied to analog.

Its a terrible marketing idea IMO, great way to reduce your market share in an already declining market.

Why is that? I think the first company that builds a pure digital preamplifier or one with extremely limited analog inputs will sell a bunch. Why? Reduction of complexity, people don't like buying things they don't need and because the audiophile 'less is more' will come into play. Same reason why you saw the gradual reduction of features on high-end pieces, some of which actually had value, such as A/B switches or phono jacks. There are maybe two or three surround preamps that actually have a phone preamp.

I've advocated a piece that has digital inputs only and an optional card slot for composite/analog inputs for the few that still need it. It would sell. An affordable digital only receiver would sell like hot cakes, at least for me.

Cleaner, and smaller. :)

I suspect we'd be more likely to see something like this from Onkyo or Denon first, and it'd geared to midrange buyers, who don't own mega buck sources and aren't tied to analog.

NAD. Or a European company.

I think Onkyo because large numbers of 885/9.8 are hooked up exactly in this manner.

Could be. But I do think it's a good move for at least one company, because if you want stupid amounts of analog ins/outs, you have.....every other preamp. If you want a minimalist digital preamp, you've got no choice at all. All that analog crap still costs something.

I don't know if it is still a product, but Tact had a 10 or 12 channel processor that could be configured with digital in only ... with of course room correction as part of the deal.

i do find it ironic that if you can afford a preamp, you can afford to update all your gear to be HDMI or digital. And most high-end vinyl guys wouldn't put their turntable into a surround preamp anyway. Who buys an HDMI preamp so they can hook up a whole bunch of old analog gear?!? Used preamps are cheap and plentiful.

I think this is more about mindset and rigid thinking, then cost.

I think that sooner or later analogue will go down the drain :confused:and I believe that there will be one or several highend manufacturer that creates an all digital pre/pro.

THere are already digital transport Denon Blu Ray any one :)

"For audiophiles less is more" and with Blu Ray and HDMi 1.3 that is all you need the least amount of DAC back and forth the best. To be honest I have only
- one HDMi 1.3 from my Blu Ray to my pre/pro,
- one HDMi 1.3 from SACD player to the pre/pro

with one HDMi out to the projector. Total number of cables three and I love it

A tone of connections are wasted $$$, (S video, composite, coaxial, RCA, optical) I would rather the manufacturers increase the quality and eliminate the analogue for those of us who are going full digital.

I think that sooner or later analogue will go down the drain :confused:and I believe that there will be one or several highend manufacturer that creates an all digital pre/pro.

I don't think anyone will dispute that, but it will take time before its a practical option for high end manufacturers.

:confused:

How can analogue die? It is how we hear sounds. Our ears are analogue devices and receive analogue waveforms. Even so-called digital amplifiers turn on and off so fast it actually mimics an analogue wave format into the speaker it is driving.

And at the risk of approaching flames, if a cable between CD transport and DAC can change the end-sound of a digital signal then digital music data does not store everything it needs to be truly digital like we understand computer data to be complete and never alters between 1 correctly functioning computer and the next.

Analog as a connection system will die. Don't get anal.

:confused:

How can analogue die? It is how we hear sounds. Our ears are analogue devices and receive analogue waveforms. Even so-called digital amplifiers turn on and off so fast it actually mimics an analogue wave format into the speaker it is driving.

With filtration (once again).

And at the risk of approaching flames, if a cable between CD transport and DAC can change the end-sound of a digital signal then digital music data does not store everything it needs to be truly digital like we understand computer data to be complete and never alters between 1 correctly functioning computer and the next.

Transmitting audio data is timing sensitive, generally speaking computer data is not. There are exceptions such as with streaming media.

What will eventually die is unnecessary analog conversions. Why take a digital signal such as cd, SACD, DVD-A (or dvd) and convert it to analog so it can be outputted via analog, then flip it back to digital to upconvert (or scale), and then back to analog so we can hear (see) it?

What will eventually die is unnecessary analog conversions. Why take a digital signal such as cd, SACD, DVD-A (or dvd) and convert it to analog so it can be outputted via analog, then flip it back to digital to upconvert (or scale), and then back to analog so we can hear (see) it?

The only reason I can think of is DSP or lack of analog connections somewhere in the chain. Also, Tact and Lyngdorf have plenty of all digital products, so the OP question is answered.

What will eventually die is unnecessary analog conversions. Why take a digital signal such as cd, SACD, DVD-A (or dvd) and convert it to analog so it can be outputted via analog, then flip it back to digital to upconvert (or scale), and then back to analog so we can hear (see) it?


Yes and that will be a great thing now having a pure digital pre/pro.

Goldmund has had a digital-out only pre-pro for years now, the Mimesis 24 - it has 32 fully configurable outputs- now that's flexibility!

http://www.goldmund.com/products/mimesis24/

Dan

Alas, no decoding for the new codecs- in fact, no HDMI at all.

Goldmund has had a digital-out only pre-pro for years now, the Mimesis 24 - it has 32 fully configurable outputs- now that's flexibility! http://www.goldmund.com/products/mimesis24/ Dan

Alas, no decoding for the new codecs- in fact, no HDMI at all.

Yes but I don't intend to sell my house to be able to afford an AV pre/pro :D

Again, why do manufacturers (AVRs, Pre/Pros, scalers etc.) put so damn many S-Vid and Composite Vid inputs on there stuff anyway?

Because they figure everyone has -

a VHS VCR
an S-VHS VCR
a Beta
an ED-Beta
a Laser Disc
a PS2
a PS3
an X-box
an X-box 360
a Nintendo
a camcorder
a DVD player
a universal player
a BD
a big dish satellite
and an HD-DVR

Doesn't everyone?

I just don't get how companies building state of the art receivers and prepros package in so many old connectivity options to just about guaranetee the average person will connect their gear in the worst possible way, and get as little performance out of their new purchase as possible.

I was at a customer's house yesterday putting in some Sonos and the Direct TV installer had charged him $200 for the free HDMI cable for his new HD receiver, but when he realized that it had a DVI, not HDMI input, he just jammed it in a crack in the TV case and hooked it up with video composite. The guy was telling me the story and how he eventually got his money back and the guy was fired and that's when I broke the news that it wasn't even hooked up to the $200 cable! He went crazy when I told him, but it was kind of funny because he has a great Texas accent.

I just don't get how companies building state of the art receivers and prepros package in so many old connectivity options to just about guarantee the average person will connect their gear in the worst possible way, and get as little performance out of their new purchase as possible.

I could not agree more look at the back of the new Denon AVP1!!!

It is absurd and such a waist of money space and everything else. Who has that much old equipment!!!
- 7 S Video,
- 7 Composite,
- 7 Component video including (BNC),
- 9 RCA for analogue audio and so on!
- 4 Coaxial
- Optical

If you were to get rid of all that it would make for a much cleaner and cheaper unit.

Here is all you would need for a nice system
- 6 or 7 HDMi 1.3 input and two or three HDMi output

and of course 10-12 XLR balanced connection for your amps



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=116050&d=1217006204

That's why I persist in calling the Denon 'mid-fi' because a true high-end piece would be designed for minimalists who value performance over excess. I've only had one customer in my entire career that has successfully used 10 analog inputs because he literally had two of everything (cassette, VHS, beta, LD, etc and that was 15 years ago, so I doubt it still applies. Few of those components could possibly even be running at this point. That Denon is *maybe* a $3000 preamp with $3000 worth of unusable connections on the back.

How can analogue die? It is how we hear sounds. Our ears are analogue devices and receive analogue waveforms.


We don't hear analog, our ears are not analog, and real world phenomena aren't analog. Analog, like digital, is a representation (an "analog", if you will) of reality that lets us conveniently manipulate and store it. Analog is just as alien to reality as digital.

--Andre

looking at that dennon amp on 1st page i'd say it's pro audio not a domestic amp, if it was sold as a domestc amp then you got a good bargain...

We don't hear analog, our ears are not analog, and real world phenomena aren't analog. Analog, like digital, is a representation (an "analog", if you will) of reality that lets us conveniently manipulate and store it. Analog is just as alien to reality as digital.

--Andre
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Does that mean you disagree?

--Andre

Does that mean you disagree?

--Andre

Andre,
The post reminded me of a somewhat delusional character that posted here in the past. His diatribes continually filled this board with pseudo-intellectual, meta-physical arguments reminiscent of a freshman's interpretation of Castanenda. :eek:

Here is the SSP-800 back

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=116210&d=1217266885


and inside

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=116211&d=1217266885

for more information on this pre/pro check

http://www.htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=40

I think the SSP800 back panel layout is one of the best I have seen. After years of groping behind to connect/reconnect things, this is a welcome change.

I think the SSP800 back panel layout is one of the best I have seen. After years of groping behind to connect/reconnect things, this is a welcome change.

Yes it looks very clean the Moon CP-8 is not bad either

http://www.simaudio.com/xmooncp8.htm

I think the SSP800 back panel layout is one of the best I have seen.

Yes it looks very clean the Moon CP-8 is not bad either


I thnk the backpanel of the Denon AVP-A1HDCI has blinded the two of you. :cool: :p

The Classe's OK, and Lexicon has had that layout for a while. The Simaudio has the usual AV receiver I/O overload.

--Andre

I thnk the backpanel of the Denon AVP-A1HDCI has blinded the two of you. :cool: :pCould be. It is pretty intimidating even for someone using an Anthem D2.

The Classe's OK, and Lexicon has had that layout for a while. The Simaudio has the usual AV receiver I/O overload.I like the Classe's interleaving of the XLR/RCA outs and the distancing of the analog audio ins from the digital ins.

Looks like most of all of the energy in that unit is in the cabinet!!!

Now that the backside is there, Classe needs to offer it in a black anodised rack mount case with a flat front.

Z-Systems made a true digital pre-pro, the rdp-1 reference digital preamplifier. Not only does it provide fully dithered digital gain control, but the 4-section parametric EQ is probably the smoothest (i.e. non "digital") sounding equalizer I have in my arsenal. Good luck trying to find one!

Z-Systems made a true digital pre-pro, the rdp-1 reference digital preamplifier. Not only does it provide fully dithered digital gain control, but the 4-section parametric EQ is probably the smoothest (i.e. non "digital") sounding equalizer I have in my arsenal. Good luck trying to find one!

I'd rescramble this to say that the RDP-1's 4-section parametric EQ is probably the smoothest sounding equalizer, analog or digital, I have in my arsenal.

That's why I persist in calling the Denon 'mid-fi' because a true high-end piece would be designed for minimalists who value performance over excess.

So you are saying that these extra connectons some how affect the performance?

That Denon is *maybe* a $3000 preamp with $3000 worth of unusable connections on the back.

No, not even close.

So you are saying that these extra connectons some how affect the performance? No, not even close.

I am a minimalist and for me an all digital is all I need with best audio. Now if any of them would build one I would buy it.;)

Classé SSP-800 in black!!!! The design of the Classé is the best I have seen, of course it might be too European looking :D

I think the SSP800 back panel layout is one of the best I have seen. After years of groping behind to connect/reconnect things, this is a welcome change.

I saw that post and thought "Is it really?".

I looked at it closely, and the only possible conclusion is that you are 100% correct. Its so logical. Time has obviously been spent on that.

Some other companies need a good slap when it comes to ergonomics

Kal

I've been told (more than once) that I have scrambled eggs for brains, so it's no surprise that my postings follow suit. Truth is digital EQ does pretty much everything I want to do, so I don't really use analog EQ anymore. Anything analog gets digitized first and then goes through digital processing.

rdp-1 actually has low shelf, high shelf and 4 parametric bell-shaped EQs, all of which are independently adjustable. Those who doubt the efficacy of EQ in a high-end audio system, just haven't heard EQ this good.

Kal

I've been told (more than once) that I have scrambled eggs for brains, so it's no surprise that my postings follow suit.I was just kidding around and wanted to make your statement even more emphatic.

Truth is digital EQ does pretty much everything I want to do, so I don't really use analog EQ anymore. Anything analog gets digitized first and then goes through digital processing.Yup. I started doing that a way back with the Meridian 861.

rdp-1 actually has low shelf, high shelf and 4 parametric bell-shaped EQs, all of which are independently adjustable. Those who doubt the efficacy of EQ in a high-end audio system, just haven't heard EQ this good.Yes, it is a dandy unit but it doesn't easily fit into a MCH system these days.

Transmitting audio data is timing sensitive, generally speaking computer data is not.

John,

EXACTLY CORRECT!!! Data in a computer disk file is static - all that matters are
the "0"s and "1"s.

Audio data data that is being delivered to a DAC has another element - the time dependence -
the "0"s and "1"s have to be delivered at the RIGHT time. That's what "jitter" is all about.

As Jonathan Valin quotes dCS's Mike Story's article on jitter in his review of the dCS
Scarlatti and Puccini in the current Absolute Sound - a digital stream fed to the DAC
has TWO pieces of information - the signal was THIS big at THIS time.

If you change the timing of the data presented to a DAC - you change the signal.

That's NOT true of a computer disk file as John Kotches CORRECTLY points out.

And the award for emphatic description of a 30 year old technology goes to...........

EXACTLY CORRECT!!! Data in a computer disk file is static - all that matters are
the "0"s and "1"s.

Audio data data that is being delivered to a DAC has another element - the time dependence -
the "0"s and "1"s have to be delivered at the RIGHT time. That's what "jitter" is all about.

Wrong, you should read up on jitter and you will find out that it is not a problem in home audio. I do not know why so many people still think jitter is a problem.

Wrong, you should read up on jitter and you will find out that it is not a problem in home audio. I do not know why so many people still think jitter is a problem.
Doug,

You may be able to reclock the data - however, that is why I said "delivered to the DAC"

You HAVE to get the timing right at the entrance to the DAC itself.

YOU should read the article by Mike Story of dCS that Jonathan Valin refers to in
the current issue of "The Absolute Sound".

I know there are ways to reclock the data - which is why I conditioned my statement
with the clause " to the DAC".

No you need to read up on how and why jitter is not a problem in audio.

And you need to stop going from thread to thread acting like an a-hole.

Could we please go back to my original question and that is I am curious to see if there would be a market for an all Digital pre/pro

Thank you

Tact already has one. No HDMI yet, but I'm sure that's a hurdle as opposed to lack of intent.

No you need to read up on how and why jitter is not a problem in audio.
Doug,

From Stereophile, December 1990:

http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1290jitter/

Would that things were that simple. As my violin teacher used to say, "The right note in
the wrong place is the wrong note." It's the same with digital data. Uncertainty in the
precise timing of that digital one or zero results in a loss of system resolution, with audible
effects on the finally recovered analog signal.

Could we please go back to my original question and that is I am curious to see if there would be a market for an all Digital pre/pro

TacT Audio TCS:

http://www.tactlab.com/Products/TCS/index.html

And you need to stop going from thread to thread acting like an a-hole.

Sigh of relief.. Thanks the Bogg... according to this ill informed gospel jitter is no longer a concern... Some here jumps from thread to thread reciting this mantra...

re the RDP-1.. This is an excellent piece of hardware as neutral as it can be.. The lack of video switching could be a problem though... I had great hope from the TaCt TCS but alas HDMI switching continue to be absent. I have also heard report that the bass portion of the room correction system does not work very well

There are some pretty incredible (OT) statements above. Our ears aren't analog! Maybe his aren't, but mine sure are.

Anyway, getting back to the original question, there definitely does appear to be a market for all digital pre-pros. Just look at the preamp processors from Onkyo, Denon, etc. HDMI in to HDMI out definitely constitutes all digital processing. The 2-channel stuff apparently doesn't sell very well, witness the rdp-1 type of product that was manf disc.

Personally, I like to keep the audio and video separate because it cuts down on wiring density, and having to switch separate processors doesn't bother me. I'm not into 5.1 surround, so the 2-channel equipment works out ok for me.

Sigh of relief.. Thanks the Bogg... according to this ill informed gospel jitter is no longer a concern... Some here jumps from thread to thread reciting this mantra...

Frantz, at the kind of levels we're typically seeing in any decently engineered gear, I don't know how it could *possibly* cause errors that are loud enough to be audible. We're not talking milliseconds or microseconds or even nanoseconds. Picoseconds. The voltage resolution of a CD is grossly smaller than the resolution in the time domain. Just because there is the theoretical possibility of some incredibly small errors does not make it audible. We're talking errors that are a million times smaller than the signal itself. Though it is amusing to see what sides of this issue some math oriented people are on.

regarding the SSP-800... does it support 7.1 channels of incoming MPCM via HDMI ?
Because the Lexicon MC12B-HD seems to only support 5.1 MPCM, so it would not be unheard of at this price point.

The Denon seems to be over burdened by legacy I/O, but at least it has twelve outputs which is more in keeping with the needs of my 9.5 system. On paper, the Denon audio performance seems on par with Classe.

regarding the SSP-800... does it support 7.1 channels of incoming MPCM via HDMI ? Because the Lexicon MC12B-HD seems to only support 5.1 MPCM, so it would not be unheard of at this price point.

Yes it is supposed to also Classé will upgrade for free the chip, this winter to decode Dolby Digital True HD as well as DTS Master Audio.

On paper, the Denon audio performance seems on par with Classe.

On paper, but will any one do a comparison Kal may be up to the challenge I sure hope so. :D I respect his opinion and will take it in consideration before my purchase

I can tell you that the Denon isn't on par with the latest Theta Casablanca 3, it surpasses it. The connections are easy and intuitive. The Audessey works just great and I am very happy to have made the switch. Having said that, i'd also go for an all-digital processor, since all my sources are HDMI. I do use the Denon for video switching, but it just goes into my Lumagen radiance. I have a separate but combined system for 2 -channel music.

David

regarding the SSP-800... does it support 7.1 channels of incoming MPCM via HDMI ?
Because the Lexicon MC12B-HD seems to only support 5.1 MPCM, so it would not be unheard of at this price point.

The Denon seems to be over burdened by legacy I/O, but at least it has twelve outputs which is more in keeping with the needs of my 9.5 system. On paper, the Denon audio performance seems on par with Classe.

FWIW, a dealer friend whose opinion I deeply trust and whose tastes are very high end who has heard both places the 800 above the Denon . I've heard the Denon AVC head to head with an ARC Ref3 and it was extremely close call between those 2. Perhaps the pecking order for the new pre/pros is beginning to be established and to be able to compete head to head with a pedigreed 2 channel preamp is most impressive indeed. I'm not impressed with the fact that the 800 doesn't support DTS MA and True HD bitstream though (at least yet). Very curious where the new ARCAMS will fall in the mix as we should know soon (Cedia).