http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/941/topgun.html

while reading this Review of the new Top Gun Bluray, i started wondering about the lossless soundtracks and how lossless they really are

sounds kinda stupid? guess what i thought so myself, because until now i was pretty sure lossless means...well exactly that.
In the case of Blurays you can have your lossless sound in 3 different formats: Dolby TrueHD, DTS MA and PCM
While PCM is uncompressed sound that should be completely lossless, i mean REALLY indistinguishable from the source audio (how are the movies recorded anyway? what is the source audio media? digital magnetic tapes?)
Some ppl claim that they can hear differences between PCM and TrueHD/DTS MA, which shouldn´t be since they SHOULD be PCM but compressed with a lossless codec (like a .rar file, if you extract it it is exactly identical, but compressed uses less space but every data is there)
But how do i "interpret" this line from the audio-part of the HD-Digest Review:
Dolby TrueHD 5.1 Surround (48kHz/24-bit, identical to the previous HD DVD)...and best of all, a DTS-HD Lossless Master Audio 5.1 Surround (48kHz/24-bit) that's exclusive to this Blu-ray. With bitrates noticeably higher than the TrueHD, the DTS-MA is the clear winner -- it's a pretty sizable leap in quality. Loudness is noticeably stronger on the DTS-MA right out of the gate, but even after volume level matching, clarity and depth of sound are superior over the TrueHD.

what gives? was the TrueHD track NOT lossless on the HD-DVD? then why the hell did they call it TrueHD and didn´t go for a DD+ ,if they couldn´t support the peak bandwidth or meet the space requirements for a REALLY lossless TrueHD track? I guess the capped @ 3.5 mbit TrueHD track is still better than a normal 1.5 DD+ track, but in my eyes that´s kind of cheating
That´s the 1st i heard of that, hopefully that´s not the case on Blurays, but if (no logical reason comes to my mind right now, cause peak bandwidth and space is much higher than HD-DVDs specs) then that could be a/the reason why ppl may hear differnces between, theoretically identically, supposedly lossless tracks

Without verifying what the reviewer has heard, one can only guess.

I would start with why DTS-MA was louder. There can be two reasons for this:

1. It is a new audio mix. This would explain the observations heard by the reviewer. Put another way, a different source was used so this has nothing to do with DTS being better.

2. The decoding was done differently. If the AVR was used to decode DTS-MA, perhaps it generates different (and possibly incorrect) levels. Equalizing such differences could be quite hard without knowing what the decoder has really done to the signal.

The observation that DTS has higher rate is a misconception as that codec's rate includes the lossy portion. And even if it did use higher rate, it would indicate that it is a worse codec than TrueHD, not better, given the fact that both are lossless.

Anyway, lots of guesses here :).

I kept switching back and forth between the two lossless tracks (wondering, first, why Paramount chose to include two lossless tracks at all), and noticed that the DTS track appeared to have a somewhat higher mid-bass response. It made some of the background rock music sound slightly punchier and the overall response seem sometimes warmer. However, I wouldn't have said that either of the tracks sounded clearer or more transparent than the other one, or that either track was superior to the other.

I'd leave it to the experts to guess why they sounded marginally different, and certainly Amir's guesses are as expert as anyone's.

John

1. It is a new audio mix. This would explain the observations heard by the reviewer. Put another way, a different source was used so this has nothing to do with DTS being better.

It's apparently a new audio mix. The DTS HD is a 6.1 track and the TrueHD is a 5.1 mix.

Brandon

DTS has always mixed their soundtracks to be louder than DD at certain frequencies, mostly bass - that is the only way they could make them sound any different. As for the original question - lossless is lossless, whether compressed or not. Everything else is in the mix.

DTS has always mixed their soundtracks to be louder than DD at certain frequencies, mostly bass - that is the only way they could make them sound any different. As for the original question - lossless is lossless, whether compressed or not. Everything else is in the mix.
I don't believe that DTS mixes soundtracks anymore.

I don't believe that DTS mixes soundtracks anymore.


Then presumably someone is doing it for them per their specs.

I don't believe that DTS mixes soundtracks anymore.

why do you believe that, do you have a link? haven´t heard of anything
http://dts.com/ seems to be alive and kickin
Then presumably someone is doing it for them per their specs.
that could be, anyone got a link?

As for the original question - lossless is lossless, whether compressed or not.
thx for "clearing that up" i thought so myself, thought that was evident in my OP ;) if not my bad, should have been more? concrete

btw one question was unanswered:
how are the movies recorded anyway? what is the source audio media? would be great if someone knows (and posts here ;) )