I currently have Krell FPB-350mcx monos.
Thinking of grabbing some Revel Studio / Salon or Andra-2 as well.

Scanning Audiogon, there are some nice amp pickings at $6000 +/- range.
I am sure many of you have had 1 or 2 of these in this list.

Mark Levinson 436 monos
Classe CA-M400 monos
Pass Labs X600 monos
Pass Labs X350.5 stereo
McIntosh 501 monos
McIntosh 602 stereo
Boulder 850 monos

Are there any standouts or comparison comments.
Whatever speaker I get next, I will naturally run with my Krells, but also want on eye on what amp change could be on deck next.

thanks - Andy

I'd take the Pass Labs over anything Krell has ever marketed. Especially with Revels. They don't need punch or dynamics, they need finesse and refinement.

Tubes Andy...one word...."tubes"

Tubes and Revels would go great.

worthy of consideration although slightly above budget

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?ampstube&1221362044

also http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?ampstube&1221506071 but 220V

also http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1221253091

or http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1221542358

I would buy this one in a heart beat http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1221526127

another excellent amp http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1220654248

another ARC http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1220205071

Andy, if you want something else to consider I recently picked up a Spectron Musician III Mk. 2 and I love it. It has the top end finnese and musicality of a tube amp and also has tons of detail and accuracy. It is a stereo amp but two can be run in a mono configuration. I will be running it with Revel Studio2's and will likely pick up a second one soon.

http://www.spectronav.com/musicianIII.htm

Well, I suppose the advice often ends up being 'the amp I'm currently using' .... so I'll be no different. I currently have a 3-pack of VTL Signature 450 version II monoblocks - I am firmly in the tube camp and love these amps both for their sound and ease of use (disclaimer: my speakers use an integrated bass amp so the VTLs are just being asked to do 100 hz. and up).

Thanks all for the comments and other recommendations.
I keep thinking tubes are too much fuss ( yes I know - naive thinking ) so lean towards SS amps.
OB, I had previously considered those VTL 450's as they are in Canada and no tax.
( Yes, we Canucks still pay 13% tax on even used items brought up from the USA )

- Andy

Thanks all for the comments and other recommendations.
I keep thinking tubes are too much fuss ( yes I know - naive thinking ) so lean towards SS amps.
OB, I had previously considered those VTL 450's as they are in Canada and no tax.
( Yes, we Canucks still pay 13% tax on even used items brought up from the USA )

- Andy

The nice thing about the most recent incarnation of the VTL 450 is the auto-biasing/tube fault indicator technology which takes a lot of the guess work and fuss out of owning tubes.

I just picked up a Pass X250.5 to play around with. This amp is much better than their previous efforts. I am really enjoying it. Definitely not tubes, but not brittle solid state. (and can't wait for my dealer friend to bring his Nuforce 9SEs over to compare)

That said, i'm not sure any of the amps listed are worth an upgrade over your Krells. Different, not necessarily better. You might wait for the new Levinson gear to hit the shelves of course...that would be ideal with Revels

As far as tubes---ASL Hurricanes and VTL 450s come to mind. But lots of heat with both.

I currently have Krell FPB-350mcx monos.
Thinking of grabbing some Revel Studio / Salon or Andra-2 as well.

Scanning Audiogon, there are some nice amp pickings at $6000 +/- range.
I am sure many of you have had 1 or 2 of these in this list.

Mark Levinson 436 monos
Classe CA-M400 monos
Pass Labs X600 monos
Pass Labs X350.5 stereo
McIntosh 501 monos
McIntosh 602 stereo
Boulder 850 monos

Are there any standouts or comparison comments.
Whatever speaker I get next, I will naturally run with my Krells, but also want on eye on what amp change could be on deck next.

thanks - Andy

I have the Mcintosh MC501s. I'm very happy with them. When I was searching for amps, it came down to either the Classe CA-M400 or the ones I have now. I like the Classe just as much as the 501s for sound quality. My wife however fell in love with the appearance of Mcintosh and insisted that I buy them. Amps are a personal decision. Are you looking for a different sound? I think many of your selections will sound differently from the Krell. I'm with oneobgyn on the tubes as well. Tubes do some things that it cost a lot more money to obtain with transistors. I too, however, have gotten away from tubes because of the issues. I"m very fond of the VTL amps. That's a very long way from the Krell sound. These days my electronics purchases are not only about sound quality but also resale value. Not all brands have good resale. At the time you decided to make your next upgrade is not the time to discover that your previous choice has a poor resale value.

all of the amps I listed that I found on Audiogon are great amps with good resalw and terrific sound. The Ref 300 MK ll is a steal at the price listed

Hi Andy,
Interesting thread. Every amp sounds different, it's system synergy blah, blah, blah. I've owned the Pass 600's and Krell 750 Mcx's. I found the Pass to have a detailed but lean or thin sound. The Krells were fantastic. Warm, detailed and dynamic. They were only bettered by the Boulder that I bought and the MBL 9011's that I have now. I woiuld look for either the Krells, the new Pass' as somebody brought up or MBL's.

David

if you cab get McIntosh 501 monos at $6,000 jump on them, IMHO.

I heard a Krell 700cx this weekend, and it sounded fantastic on a pair of Avalon Eidolons. (Cary SLP 05 pre). These go used for 6500 or so and would simplify your system.

Fantastic speakers as well---Neil Patel doesn't get the "online" credit or popularity he deserves. Very coherant top to bottom and some of the best cabinets in the business.

If you want to explore tubes without making too much of a commitment, but want a nice piece at a reasonable price you could look at the Music Reference RM 9 MK2 http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1218882301 (although they only provide about 125 w/ch).

Another reliable and very nice tube amp that should not cost too much but may be difficult to find is the one made by Lectron - A Jean Hiraga design.

Now just compare this thread with the now defunct "Are All CD Players the Same" thread. This is what the $20,000+ Forum should be all about. Bravo. Let's see more of this. Regards, Norm
Oh, by the way look at the ARC REF 210's.

Now just compare this thread with the now defunct "Are All CD Players the Same" thread. This is what the $20,000+ Forum should be all about. Bravo. Let's see more of this. Regards, Norm
Oh, by the way look at the ARC REF 210's.
a great amp but you won't find a used one in the $6000 range

Andy - ever consider Blue Circle?
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1221108081

It looks like you are very close to their factory in Innerkip ON. Gilbert Yeung is a great guy and a wonderful designer.

Another powerful tube amp is the Rogue Audio. I do not have any direct experience with them, but I know a few people who enjoy them very much.

http://www.rogueaudio.com/Products_Zeus.htm

http://www.rogueaudio.com/News.htm

on that list, I'd take the Pass Labs ANYDAY...by a mile.

Well, I pickup some 1 year old Revel Studios ( v1 ) tomorrow in Toronto, and have a Voice coming up next week.

The Blue Circle BC 200 series ( 204 /206 / 208 ) are suppossed to be excellent.
I once did a buy/sell deal with a local who has the BC-206, and it is huge !
I am also not a fan of "most" of Gilbert's product line styling.
He is located only about 40 minutes from me.

So I'll stick with my FPB-350mcx's for now and get an ear for that amp & speaker setup.
Probably a Pass X350.5 would be next on my buy-list.
Also, recently sold off my Velo DD-18 but might snag a JL F113 to give some Ooomph to sub 40Hz.

- Andy

you will love the Fathom Andy

BTW I arrive in Toronto tomorrow evening for 12 days

Blue Circle has good sounding gear. i've been close many times to pulling a trigger on one of their integrateds (FtTH). definitely on the warmer side of SS (hybrid design)

i have heard the 20x series many times....outstanding sound for the buck, but yes its a big amp---but so is Pass X350, Krell 700, etc. none of them are exactly easy to move.

i'd also suggest checking out a pair of Nuforce 9SEv2s...they come with 30 days guarantee if you don't like them. would be a great match with Revel imho.

OB ... just in time for the Canadian Open ( golf ) and Rogers Cup ( tennis ), both running this weekend in the Toronto area :)

- Andy

OB ... just in time for the Canadian Open ( golf ) and Rogers Cup ( tennis ), both running this weekend in the Toronto area :)

- Andy

I'm going to be lakefront in Belle Ewart on Lake Simcoe at my best friends summer home for boating,water skiing and jet skiing. I am hoping to catch up with The Bogg up hear his system

Are there any standouts or comparison comments.



Hi Andy. I would look out for a Rotel RB-1090 or a used Bryston like 14B SST. Those will give you you the power you need plus neutral sound.
Good luck :)

Well, I pickup some 1 year old Revel Studios ( v1 ) tomorrow in Toronto, and have a Voice coming up next week.

So I'll stick with my FPB-350mcx's for now and get an ear for that amp & speaker setup.


- Andy

Nice grab on the Studios. they really love power. I would like to know your thoughts on the Krell/Revel combo. I have a pair of Studio's v.1 also. I'm currently running a Bryston 4B-ST with mine. Are you using a Krell preamp?

Got the Studios and Krells powered up tonight ( connected via "shotgun bi-wire" as I had 2 sets of speaker cable handy ) and am very happy with the initial sonics. They work well in my somewhat compromised room ( recent hardwood floor ). They Krells got quite warmed up after about 1/2 hour of medium-loud playing.

Having owned may/most Bryston models along the way, I think your 4B-ST might run out of juice. Have you considered a used Sim Audio W-5 ? Not too much money over a 4B-ST but better sonics & control & current ( handle low impedances better ) IMO.

I am feeding digital ( via Toshiba XA2 and Slimdevices Transporter ) into a Classe SSP-600, then analog XLR out to the Krells.

I also have an Innersound iPower 330 here but will give the current setup a couple weeks of playtime and my own ear acclimatization.

- Andy

Yeah, i'm with you on the 4BSST---i'm not a big fan compared to other SS amps i've owned (including my current Pass 250.5)

Hey guys, next question:

So I have the Revel Studios at home now.
If I wanted to dabble in tubes ( $4k test budget ) , what would you recommend to give a sampling of what tubes might do for me:

- try an Audio Research LS26 pre fronting my Krell FPB-350mcx
- try some VTL MB-450 mono amps ( or Sonic Frontiers Power3 ? ), fed by my Classe SSP-600 pre/pro

- Andy

Hey guys, next question:

So I have the Revel Studios at home now.
If I wanted to dabble in tubes ( $4k test budget ) , what would you recommend to give a sampling of what tubes might do for me:

- try an Audio Research LS26 pre fronting my Krell FPB-350mcx
- try some VTL MB-450 mono amps ( or Sonic Frontiers Power3 ? ), fed by my Classe SSP-600 pre/pro

- Andy

some may disagree with me as the tube pre/ss amp is common...but in my experience, the tube amps give much more of that holographic tube sound---not the preamp as much.

i would try the VTLs...or Manley 250s if you want a warmer sound (EL 34s).

I agree. I use a non-tube preamp/surround processor with tube amps for the front three speakers and the things that tubes do well are alive-and-well.

There are a few sets of VTL450's on audiogon - although a bit higher than your $4K test budget. Surely you can borrow a pair? It is my personal prefernce for KT88s in the VTL amps, but that is just me.

Andy, you really have some awesome gear. I'm sure you have had some good high end speakers also. I'm wondering how the Studio's stack up against some of the other speakers.

I currently have Krell FPB-350mcx monos.
Thinking of grabbing some Revel Studio / Salon or Andra-2 as well.

Scanning Audiogon, there are some nice amp pickings at $6000 +/- range.
I am sure many of you have had 1 or 2 of these in this list.

Mark Levinson 436 monos
Classe CA-M400 monos
Pass Labs X600 monos
Pass Labs X350.5 stereo
McIntosh 501 monos
McIntosh 602 stereo
Boulder 850 monos

Are there any standouts or comparison comments.
Whatever speaker I get next, I will naturally run with my Krells, but also want on eye on what amp change could be on deck next.

thanks - Andy

I have a pair of MC501 monos and love them. Unfortunately, I can't directly compare to most of the others. I thought the Levinson 436 were nice but the McIntosh was a little warmer (my bias is for warmer).

Please let me know what you think of the Andra II's. I have been speaker-shopping but haven't been able to find them locally.

Bob

Hey guys, next question:

So I have the Revel Studios at home now.
If I wanted to dabble in tubes ( $4k test budget ) , what would you recommend to give a sampling of what tubes might do for me:

- try an Audio Research LS26 pre fronting my Krell FPB-350mcx
- try some VTL MB-450 mono amps ( or Sonic Frontiers Power3 ? ), fed by my Classe SSP-600 pre/pro

- Andy

Andy, what happened to the ice amps? was that you or am I thinking of someone else

The D-Sonic 7x500 ( all 1000ASP ) ICEpower amps got sold when I sold my active-tri-amped speaker setup.
The buyer wanted amps and I was able to sell them for minimal loss, so let them go.

My backup amp for the last year+ is an Innersound ESL-300-MK2, and I also have a newer Innersound iPower 330.
I am a big fan of these Innersound (Coda) amps.

The next big amp after the Krell FPB-350mcx was a MCormack DNA-500, that did duty here for a month. It had a great midrange, but not as open ( forward? ) sounding as I was after. So it was not the magic bullet for me. FYI: The guy I bought the DNA-500 from now has a pair of the big Spectron Musician III-SE-MK2 run mono. He says it is night and day over the DNA-500, fwiw.

Arriving yesterday was perhaps my deal of a lifetime.
( Have you seen some of the bargains/steals at Audiogon these days ? )
I nabbed an Innersound Reference DPR-500 amp.
I will forgo with the superlatives, but this amp is the magic bullet for me.
It is sonically above anything else I have ever had at home ... so far :)
I hope to bring the DPR-500 over to an aquaintance for a comparo against his ML 436 monos.

Still on the wishlist is a current model Spectron amp, and the newest Bel Canto Ref1000 MK2, and a Sim Audio W-8.

- Andy

i just sold my pass labs x350.5 amp last night. im in toronto just fyi. i would still recommend this amp as one of the top dogs. only reason for sale is i changed rooms and now looking for a small tube integrated.

If you're going solid state, I would look for an amplifier biased to operate in pure Class A. If you're looking for used SS amplifiers, I'd recommend the 90's era Threshold SA "e-series" amplifiers. Hard to find used though.

If you're going solid state, I would look for an amplifier biased to operate in pure Class A.

That could be useful with winter approaching.

If you're going solid state, I would look for an amplifier biased to operate in pure Class A. If you're looking for used SS amplifiers, I'd recommend the 90's era Threshold SA "e-series" amplifiers. Hard to find used though.

I guess that you are not a member of the Green party. ;)

na, green's just the latest fad anyways.

That could be useful with winter approaching.

LOL. That's so true! It's tough going in the summer months though.

I guess that you are not a member of the Green party. ;)

I believe different people allocate their "green" resources differently. But you are correct, pure class A it's a very inefficient design, but, if properly implemented, sounds oh so sweet.

As far as dabbling with tubes, I would say it depends on what you're looking for within the sweetness/warm spectrum - full sweetness or just a touch of sweetness.

I think there's a very wide difference in this regard between say Rogue Audio, ARC, VTL, EAR/Paravicini, CJ, etc...

With mixing tubes and SS in the amp/pre-amp sections, I'm sure you know about impedance matching. I had a dandy of a time trying find a laid back preamp for my Threshold amp, which has an input impedance of 600 ohms for XLR inputs. Good for professional use but difficult for home use.

Hopefully, there are several good B&M dealers near you who will let you audition these pieces over a few days in your particular setup. ENJOY!

It sounds sweet if the program material sounds sweet.

Of course, so does a good class AB.

Of course it depends on a lot of variables but in comparing a pure class A biased Threshold amplifier (4e and 3.9e) with a class A/AB biased Pass Labs amplifier (X250 and X5), my personal experience has been that the class A sounds a bit sweeter. This difference is relative, of course, as they are all Nelson Pass designs and are all very neutral.

Hardly blindly?

"All very neutral" and one sounding sweeter than the other seem contradictory (does the sweeter amp sweeten the input signal, or does the less sweet one unsweeten the signal?).

But then, from your description they appear to be sighted comparisons. Such "comparisons" should always be taken with many grains of salt.

Salt? Or sugar? :D

Tell us Bob Lee about Class H.

"All very neutral" and one sounding sweeter than the other seem contradictory (does the sweeter amp sweeten the input signal, or does the less sweet one unsweeten the signal?).

But then, from your description they appear to be sighted comparisons. Such "comparisons" should always be taken with many grains of salt.

Equal or Nutrasweet? =)
While getting a bit far afield from the OP...

As I said, it's all relative. FWIW, my comparisons were/are done blind (if there's someone else around to do the switching, level matching, etc.) and unblind, as the amps were and, for the most part, are in my setup.

... I guess we could then get into whether it's really blind or not and whether one attributes something you hear first as being better than something you hear second, etc., etc., but I digress...

Again, the Thresholds and Pass Labs amps are neutral sounding. By that I mean relative to other amps I've had. Do they sound like you're actually there in the middle of the performance? No - audio systems are a necessary contrivance; live performance is live performance. Are they the "be all, end all"? No. Are there other neutral sounding amps? Ask around.

And while the Thresholds and Pass Labs amps are neutral, they do sound different. The only way for me to describe the difference is sweetness.

If they truly sound different (as opposed to simply compared differently, which is typical in casual "comparisons"), then at least one of them isn't "neutral." ;) An amp has to bend the signal in some way to make it sound different. Amps that are truly neutral will tend strongly to sound alike.

They do sound alike but, as noted, are not identical.

They do sound alike but, as noted, are not identical.

So at least, one is not neutral, maybe even both.

read the above posts - it's relative not absolutes.

I guess there are always devil's advocates, skeptics, and two siths! =)

I always thought "neutral" just meant "whatever sound you like" :)

Without commenting on sounds of amps, if you are interested in Class A amps, then look at the Classe DR3VHC. Run two of them in bridge mode. Will drive anything, extremely reliable, should not be expensive (especially for Canadians), and unlikely to be stolen (unless the thief looks like the Hulk).

PS, and unlike many of the Krells in its time, they are true class As (thus the name brand), not sliding Class A schemes like the Krells.

PPS Oh, and make sure the AC is running in winter, because those beasts WILL run HOT.

just a touch of sweetness.

ENJOY!

Are there any amps with just a touch of evil? They might do well in my HT with film noir. :D