I'm curious to people's opinions & maybe even dealers if they look at this forum.

Let's say I'm interested in a particular piece of high end equipment, I'm not overly excessive as far as tweeks go etc. I've read the various rules in the mags - Stereophile, Absolute Sound etc. I find the reviewers tastes mirror my own etc.

Bottom line, I have to order it from somewhere, its just not available locally or even within my state.

Is it unreasonable to expect a discount from who I am ordering it from either by phone and/or internet. I'm not requiring any dealer services, its not a brick's & mortar thing for me. The dealer is taking my money & shipping. I cant listen to it, if it needs service, I send directly back to the manufacturer.

The reason I'm asking, is that because of the economy and changing listening habits, no dealer in my area or state for that matter no longer carries the lines I own & that I bought from them originally. Prior to them dropping the lines, due to the high cost of the equipment & lack of local consumer interest, they didnt stock it anyways anymore. They were not very inclined to order a piece on that I may or may not buy, once I have auditioned it. Should I expect a discount from them too? Plus I'm not in an isolated area either, I'm a resident of a rather large city in the south.

The days of the dealer having the high end equipment in stock & available for auditions for the most part seem to be over. The idea of returning to the dealer for repairs, they handle the logistics and loaners are over.

This is the trend or fact in my geographic area, I'd like to hear from similar folks in my situation.

I'm sure this post will generate lively, perhaps angry responses. Heck I've basically written the same thing to Stereophile & Absolute Sound, suffice they never print it. But they have printed other topics I wrote the editors on.

I probably should have added this. I'm not some guy looking for low-balll prices etc. My system is around $50K, I paid retail for it. When I bought most of it the dealers had it all in stock, I could audition, compare to comparable other stuff etc. I still buy about 10-15 CDs a month, no downloads here, if I listen to it, I've bought it, no copies etc.

The genral price range I'm refering to is lets say between $4k & $6K for components, $9K thru $14K for speakers. So above the Best Buy/Tweeter crowd, and below the real high end folks - the Wilson speakers, high end Esotreric, Audio Research Reference etc.

Just a lot has changed in the past few years, thats all.

You could always buy used on Audiogon. Sometimes you can even find new stuff at very good prices...

I agree. If you don't like a used piece, you can get out of it with little to no pain. I have customers who do nothing but flip used gear, either for fun, or as part of a quest for perfection. But mostly for fun.

Actually when I've upgraded my gear, I sold the old stuff on Audiogon, its that or ebay, the dealers don't take tradeins anymore either. Plus I'm pretty anal about my gear, I usually have even the little twisties that came with power cords, etc etc. I save it all.
Actually the amazing but sad part is how much the high-end gear depreciates.

When you buy used, the biggest depreciation hit is usually out of the way. I don't like auditioning in a store, anyway. You never really know how something is going to sound until you get it into your rack in your listening room. Buying used allows you to get the piece into your system, listen to it at your leisure, and either keep it, or keep moving other pieces in until you're satisfied. You get to hear and spend time with more gear, find what you really want, what works for you and what doesn't, with no pressure. If you're buying high end stuff, the money you save by buying used more than pays for shipping a stream of used stuff in and out.

I've also met a lot of great folks while buying and selling on Audiogon. I find most audiophiles treat their gear the way you describe and most of the people I have dealt with have been very honest regarding the condition of their gear.

To expect a ready discount on any new item where the supply is exceedingly short and there is no perceived competition is hoping for the tooth fairy. Even in bad economies, things that are considered somewhat exclusive still sell. You can ask...

Your best bet is to probably contact a dealer who carries the product and discuss it with them. I am willing to bet your results will vary from dealer to dealer.

who says dealers don't take trades..that's nonsense.

My recommendation is to find one reliable dealer with a great variety of high end components...(preferably out of state so that you save on sales tax) and always remain faithful to that dealer. Then watch the discounts come. I disagree with Chu's post. I have used the same dealer for the past 15 years (out of state). I have received better than average discounts and he always takes my used gear back in trade and I end up with new gear at huge savings. On rare occasions if I decide to sell on Audiogon I usually will make back darn close to my original investment. As an aside, if your dealer doesn't carry what you want more often than not they know a dealer who does and can still get it for you back of MSRP. Shopping haphazzardly on the internet might find something good from time to time but my method has been tried and true

Another is to find some good dealers who advertise their ex-demo gear on their website, this way you can see if something is moving or not and can analyse the market trend by using website of multiple dealers.
And if it is not moving but something you want, well you have more chance on pushing for a sweeter deal.

Cheers
DT

My recommendation is to find one reliable dealer with a great variety of high end components...(preferably out of state so that you save on sales tax)

I don't know about California, but I would bet its similar, but in Michigan, you don't eliminate sales tax by buying out of state, you EVADE sales tax if you don't claim your purchases and pay use tax (the same rate as sales tax). Plus, many states have reciprocal agreements with other states and sales tax is still charged, or should be. I know that most people don't do this properly, but it is the law.

I've got like $25K in trade ins if only someone would just buy it.

I don't know about California, but I would bet its similar, but in Michigan, you don't eliminate sales tax by buying out of state, you EVADE sales tax if you don't claim your purchases and pay use tax (the same rate as sales tax). Plus, many states have reciprocal agreements with other states and sales tax is still charged, or should be. I know that most people don't do this properly, but it is the law.

Not to derail, but it's just f'n pathetic that state and federal governments keep coming up with new ways of getting more money from you because they think they need it more than you do. We can't build nukes out here because they're so 'dangerous', but we're spending over $500M ($92M + cost overruns and counting, and $500 for every man/woman/child here) to build a 100 mile railroad for tourist passengers that has no prayer of even meeting its yearly cost to operate and has already killed 2 or 3 people in collisions not to mention our $5M airport observation deck that was closed off right after it was built because of 9/11. Hence my tag line below.

I don't know about California, but I would bet its similar, but in Michigan, you don't eliminate sales tax by buying out of state, you EVADE sales tax if you don't claim your purchases and pay use tax (the same rate as sales tax). Plus, many states have reciprocal agreements with other states and sales tax is still charged, or should be. I know that most people don't do this properly, but it is the law.

no different IMO than buying through the internet. Unless the vendor has a corresponding business in the state to which it is going then I don't believe that sales tax is due.

No, they've changed the laws in some states to say that it is more like a 'purchase tax' and that if the vendor doesn't collect, then the buyer must. They can't make an out of state business charge sales tax but they can, in theory, make the buyer pay. Just sayin', that's how far its gone.

http://www.ftb.ca.gov/current/usetax.shtml
Sucks but it's true. I don't know anyone who's actually done this though.

California would especially be suffering because their sales tax is so high. I get a lot of calls from CA asking if they have to pay sales tax to buy from me. I wonder why governments always think they can tax their way out of problems. It's like me going in and telling the boss I need a bigger raise again this year because of my gambling and credit card habits, rather than my job performance.

Actually my CA sales tax was 8.25%. That's high, sure, but not unprecedented---it's the same here in Austin. It's the total tax burden that sucks in CA. CA has a high income tax as well (TX has none). TX has a higher property tax though. For most families, the total tax burden is significantly higher in CA.

There is the implication that states can and will order companies to divulge their customer base, especially the big ones, so they can match it against those who do or don't pay the tax voluntarily. The house in Mexico beckons me more and more each month. I'm thinking of going from 'retiring' to 'pretiring'.

TN would sometimes go after people who bought furniture in NC and send them a tax bill. I think most states have a Sales & Use tax. The "Use" part aims to collect tax on out of state purchases. I don't know of anyone who has voluntarily filed though, save for businesses which can and do get audited. Years ago, the firm I worked for had a client (publicly traded trucking company) that restructured, liquidating some subs and contributing assets to a different one. They were audited by the TN dept of revenue and handed a tax bill north of $1m for use tax on the assets contributed to the other sub. Those assets had already been taxed on purchase but that didn't matter...

http://www.ftb.ca.gov/current/usetax.shtml
Sucks but it's true. I don't know anyone who's actually done this though.
who says dealers don't take trades..that's nonsense.

My recommendation is to find one reliable dealer with a great variety of high end components...(preferably out of state so that you save on sales tax) and always remain faithful to that dealer. Then watch the discounts come. I disagree with Chu's post. I have used the same dealer for the past 15 years (out of state). I have received better than average discounts and he always takes my used gear back in trade and I end up with new gear at huge savings. On rare occasions if I decide to sell on Audiogon I usually will make back darn close to my original investment. As an aside, if your dealer doesn't carry what you want more often than not they know a dealer who does and can still get it for you back of MSRP. Shopping haphazzardly on the internet might find something good from time to time but my method has been tried and true

So using this information; if for example someone were to (foolishly) publicly disclose many thousands of dollars of un-taxed personal use items in avoidance of said Use Tax and they were “discovered” by the State Franchise Tax Board, they might have a significant tax liability problem … no?

To put this in more direct terms, I would very much like to hear a Gotham in my HT (let’s call it an extended demo) and if someone in the above circumstance had say two Gotham’s, then a prudent move might be to allow me the privilege of demoing said Gotham and thereby avoid a lot of trouble.:p

Remember "Ignorantia juris non excusat"

I don't know about California, but I would bet its similar, but in Michigan, you don't eliminate sales tax by buying out of state, you EVADE sales tax if you don't claim your purchases and pay use tax (the same rate as sales tax). Plus, many states have reciprocal agreements with other states and sales tax is still charged, or should be. I know that most people don't do this properly, but it is the law.

Thanks for the info. I now know never to move to Michigan. Luckily, Missouri doesn't make you pay sales tax on items not bought in-state.

Thanks for the info. I now know never to move to Michigan. Luckily, Missouri doesn't make you pay sales tax on items not bought in-state.


Think again.

http://dor.mo.gov/tax/business/sales/

"The state’s use tax is also 4.225 percent, and it is imposed on the use, storage or consumption of tangible personal property shipped into Missouri from out of state. The amount of use tax paid on a transaction depends on the combined local use tax rate in effect at the Missouri location to which the tangible personal property is shipped. The use tax is paid in one of two ways – either the out-of-state seller will collect and remit the use tax directly to the department, or the purchaser is responsible for remitting the tax to the department if the out-of-state seller does not collect use tax on the transaction."

So using this information; if for example someone were to (foolishly) publicly disclose many thousands of dollars of un-taxed personal use items in avoidance of said Use Tax and they were “discovered” by the State Franchise Tax Board, they might have a significant tax liability problem … no?
They don't even need to publicly brag. Take a vendor (us for example). When we file our state sales tax return, we must disclose the total amount of sales by county, the sales to tax exempt users (other dealers, non-profits), and the total amount sold and delivered out of state. If they do not like the total number of out of state sales, they CANNOT force us to disclose our customer list (without a court order); however, they can AUDIT our out of state sales. That audit will reveal the contact information of the purchaser(s). Whether the state decides to pass that on to other taxing jurisdictions is up to them.

Let's see. CA sales tax of 8.25% on $300k of stereo equipment = enough to buy a decent power cord...:D

Actually I've only dealt with one local dealer thru all my different upgrades etc. I still joke with him about 'the good old days' where folks actually cared about listening, he laments too but its new ecomic relaties I guess.
The only thing I'd be hesitant on is buying loudspeakers on Audigon, i'd be so concerned about the cosmetics. Plus original shipping packaging is a must. Plus one man's mint is anothers not so good.
I don't sweat the taxes, if one is buying high end stuff, its part of the price of admission.

Don't blame the govenrment of hair brained schemes. You can bet, in case of your railroad, that a bunch of your fellow "citizens" decided this would be a good thing for your area and convinced your legislator to seek funding for it. And they did a better job of convincing, then the people that opposed it. Your senator or congressmen just didn't think the idea up on their own.

remember, your legislator are voted into office not appointed, you the citizen should have the upper hand. Organize, make yourself be heard.

Yikes, i'm on the soapbox again.

Think again.

http://dor.mo.gov/tax/business/sales/

"The state’s use tax is also 4.225 percent, and it is imposed on the use, storage or consumption of tangible personal property shipped into Missouri from out of state. The amount of use tax paid on a transaction depends on the combined local use tax rate in effect at the Missouri location to which the tangible personal property is shipped. The use tax is paid in one of two ways – either the out-of-state seller will collect and remit the use tax directly to the department, or the purchaser is responsible for remitting the tax to the department if the out-of-state seller does not collect use tax on the transaction."

I've lived here for 10 years and have never had to pay this. But point taken.

Don't blame the govenrment of hair brained schemes. You can bet, in case of your railroad, that a bunch of your fellow "citizens" decided this would be a good thing for your area and convinced your legislator to seek funding for it. And they did a better job of convincing, then the people that opposed it. Your senator or congressmen just didn't think the idea up on their own.

remember, your legislator are voted into office not appointed, you the citizen should have the upper hand. Organize, make yourself be heard.

Yikes, i'm on the soapbox again.

No, these ideas were those of the governor or mayor, or were whispered, not announced. People tried to oppose, but it seemed like a good way of buying votes or, at least, having 'done something' and they hide the facts of the proposal from the voters, such as the cost to build (1/5 of actual) of the cost to continue (5x revenues). The problem here is not the voters, but that the choices are set up by political machines and that all politicians lie about who they are until after they're elected. It's always convenient to blame the voter for electing the least horrendous of two horrible choices. Until these things are actual proposition votes, rather than insider votes, you really can't hand it off to the voters so easily.

Actually my CA sales tax was 8.25%. That's high, sure, but not unprecedented---it's the same here in Austin. It's the total tax burden that sucks in CA. CA has a high income tax as well (TX has none). TX has a higher property tax though. For most families, the total tax burden is significantly higher in CA.

Michael --
Comparing notes with a good friend in Houston, with homes of approximately equal value (his is ~3x the size of my townhouse, of course), our tax burden is just about the same: his property tax is about twice mine, and I pay about equal amounts of property tax and state income tax. Of course, one can purchase a much less expensive home in Houston than what one can in Silicon Valley.... (after normalizing for location, commute, etc).

So YMMV....

Drew

Yes, that's a key distinction. If you spend the same amount on your house in both places, it's roughly a wash. But if you take advantage of the lower cost of housing here and purchase the same quality in both places, your tax burden is less.

In my case I was constrained far more by budget in Menlo Park than I was here. I have about 120% more square footage, better build quality, and a comparable lot in a premium neighborhood---and I paid 17% less for this house. My location premium is quite large: if I had compromised on that I could have done significantly better.

But yes, you can get yourself into trouble here if you don't understand the tax tradeoffs. I know someone who made the mistake of making a straight lateral cost move from CA to TX while reducing their income (retiring). They didn't last long in that house. Thankfully they sold it rather quickly once they realized they were underwater.