I think you misread Josh's response. He said the EDGE does *not* have BNR.

You're right, I read it as the EDGE had it but the VP50PRO didn't, that's a bummer.

Can the Edge make me a ham sandwich? Can I get a Edge t-shirt? http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/party/party0011.gif

Josh:

One last question from me -- is there going to be a rack mount option, ie ears for the Edge?

Best,

Josh:

One last question from me -- is there going to be a rack mount option, ie ears for the Edge?

Best,

EDGE does not have a rack ears option although it could certainly go a shelf in a rack and we plan on working with Mid Atlantic on providing them all necessary measurements to make a trim piece.

EDGE does not have a rack ears option although it could certainly go a shelf in a rack and we plan on working with Mid Atlantic on providing them all necessary measurements to make a trim piece.

Josh:

THat's fine. I am actually considering a Shelf-5 with a blank cover as no one really needs to see any of the "ugly guts" of the system anyway :)

Cheers,

use of the MA OCAP-2, a vented clamping shelf, works well with the Edge ;)

-Gary

For those that have submitted a Public Beta testing questionnaire but have not heard back from me yet, I decided to take the weekend off but I will be getting back to sending out the Beta agreement NDAs tomorrow.

I want the T-shirt! :D

Get in line!

use of the MA OCAP-2, a vented clamping shelf, works well with the Edge ;)

-Gary

I prefer the shelf to be a bit more substantial myself :D

Cheers,

I prefer the shelf to be a bit more substantial myself :D

Cheers,

I know what you mean John, but these clamping shelves are the real deal IMHO, very sturdy and stable once attached in the rack, the way the clamping bars are designed the units are as rock steady as if they had rack ears on them, plus you get better ventilation;)

but as Josh said, MA will have a kit available as soon as someone sends them a Edge to configure, I change gear around so much that I have never wanted to spend the cash on them, they are very nice though ;)

-Gary

Bear

The problem is there is no one pattern. You need a number of them. Then you are not adjusting the EDGE but your display.

Use one of the available calibration disks to fine tune your display. You then use the EDGE to tweek each input to your liking.

Interestingly if we take 10 people on this thread who only want the one additional feature to make them happy and add them then the EDGE becomes a VPxx and no longer costs $799.

well i think to do basics like color and gray scale you could get away with just a RGB AND A GRAYSCAEL test pattern.I know about calibration disks and i have a electronic eye to take color temp readings.But like i said i am not joe average consumer.They dont have this equipment or even know how to use it.I dont think every electronics consumer is on AVSFORUM .Im sure DVDO is marketing this product to more than the guys in this forum.

Any chance of a corrected 50Hz porch output for CRT users?

E.g an extra two or three output modes

CRT - 720p@50Hz
CRT - 1080i@50Hz
CRT - 1080p@50Hz

I think with the value of CRT's becoming lower this could open up your market to a range of CRT users that don't want to pay big bucks for a processor, but would like to use this in conjunction with a HD Fury etc.

Hi Josh, I was trying to find out if it's able to do specific percentage overscan/underscan control. Some of the similar product has no option, so the results is, it's either overscan too much or underscan too much.

Please advice. Thanks a lot! :)

Not only can EDGE output 1080p-24 from 1080i content, it can do this with 480i, 480p and 720p content.... No other video processor on the market (other than the VP50/VP50PRO :) ) can do this.

That is just plain false... unless you know something I don't know. I believe that current Lumagen scalers do this as well.

That is just plain false... unless you know something I don't know. I believe that current Lumagen scalers do this as well.

I believe that you are wrong.

I'm not trying to mislead anyone. We won't be doing cadence detection for 480p, 720p or 1080p60 video sources.

looking at the comparison table makes me wonder......

VP50Pro retailed @ $3499 but widely available @ ebay for $2K (57% of SRP)
VP50 retailed @ $2499 but widely available @ ebay for $1150 (46% of SRP)

would EDGE retailed @ $799 become widely available online for < $400?

Do you guys feel that $500 is a reasonable price for beta tester?

Unless those Ebay prices are from a DVDO Ebay store, they mean nothing. Ebay pricing references are pointless. They could be used, white van specials... What about warranty?

looking at the comparison table makes me wonder......

VP50Pro retailed @ $3499 but widely available @ ebay for $2K (57% of SRP)
VP50 retailed @ $2499 but widely available @ ebay for $1150 (46% of SRP)

would EDGE retailed @ $799 become widely available online for < $400?

Do you guys feel that $500 is a reasonable price for beta tester?

thats because of all the fly by night dealers on ebay that are selling the scalers for about a 10$ profit and a loss in many cases, these dealers have ruined the retail pricing of DVDO products and couldn't provide support for them if they had a gun to their head, 99% of cases they are buying from distributors (which are not supposed to sell to them) no support, iffy warranty

see how long they remain in business ;) DVDO has allowed their retail sales chain to be ruined IMHO

-Gary

looking at the comparison table makes me wonder......

VP50Pro retailed @ $3499 but widely available @ ebay for $2K (57% of SRP)
VP50 retailed @ $2499 but widely available @ ebay for $1150 (46% of SRP)

would EDGE retailed @ $799 become widely available online for < $400?

Do you guys feel that $500 is a reasonable price for beta tester?

This is purely speculation.

EDGE will not be available from any dealers that plan on staying dealers and receiving product for $400, let alone $500.

:oNot only can EDGE output 1080p-24 from 1080i content, it can do this with 480i, 480p and 720p content using our Precision Deinterlacing and Progressive Cadence Detection. No other video processor on the market (other than the VP50/VP50PRO :) ) can do this.

This is inaccurate...My Lumagen VisionHDP upscales and deinterlaces all scan rates to 1080p24 or 1080p60.

Outputting 1080p-24 or 1080p-60 is one thing outputting the original 24 frames that exist in a 480p or 720p broadcast at 1080p-24 is another thing.

1. Can the Edge convert a 1080p to 720p?
...


Yes

...



Regarding 1080p24 to 720p conversion: 720p at 24 or 48 Hz?

Regarding 1080p24 to 720p conversion: 720p at 24 or 48 Hz?

720p at 24Hz/48Hz/72Hz are not default output formats of EDGE.

720p at 24Hz/48Hz/72Hz are not default output formats of EDGE.

Ok, thanks for you answer. I understand it as that 1080p24->720p is not possible at any (output) refresh rate. Correct? Or do I get 720p60?

Feeling a bit confused :o

:o
Not only can EDGE output 1080p-24 from 1080i content, it can do this with 480i, 480p and 720p content using our Precision Deinterlacing and Progressive Cadence Detection. No other video processor on the market (other than the VP50/VP50PRO ) can do this.
This is inaccurate...My Lumagen VisionHDP upscales and deinterlaces all scan rates to 1080p24 or 1080p60.I believe what Josh is referring to is the ability to perform cadence detection on progressive sources, not just interlaced ones. (If you look at the post he originally responded to this becomes clear.) This allows DVDO products to perform IVT from formats like 480p60 and 720p60 to 1080p24. Note that he's not talking about simple frame rate conversion from 60 Hz to 24 Hz, but rather true IVT from 60 Hz progressive formats with 3:2 pulldown to 24 Hz. (The DVDO processors can do the same with 50 Hz progressive to 25 Hz as well, by the way.)

At time I developed this technology -- about 2 years ago -- there was no one else doing it, including Silicon Optix, Gennum and Lumagen. While I suppose it's possible that they've done this in the meantime, I have yet to hear of it or see any confirmation of it.

Just to be clear here: You're claiming that your Lumagen HDP will convert a 720p60 source with 3:2 pulldown to 108p24, showing each original film frame exactly once?

- Dale Adams

Ok, thanks for you answer. I understand it as that 1080p24->720p is not possible at any (output) refresh rate. Correct? Or do I get 720p60?

Feeling a bit confused :oYou can get 720p60 with 3:2 pulldown. You just can't get 720p at 24, 48 or 72 Hz.

- Dale Adams

Ok, thanks for you answer. I understand it as that 1080p24->720p is not possible at any (output) refresh rate. Correct? Or do I get 720p60?

Feeling a bit confused :o

can't your display accept 1080p?

anyway, asking the 3rd time.....how's the control for overscan and underscan? by percentage or a fixed amount which can't be configured?

how's the control for overscan and underscan? by percentage or a fixed amount which can't be configured?There's no overscan control, per se. But the zoom control, which performs a similar function, goes by percentages. Underscan is not by a fixed amount, but is adjustable on a scale from 0 to 100. I'm not sure what the maximum underscan percentage is, but the steps would appear to be less than 1% each.

- Dale Adams

There's no overscan control, per se. But the zoom control, which performs a similar function, goes by percentages. Underscan is not by a fixed amount, but is adjustable on a scale from 0 to 100. I'm not sure what the maximum underscan percentage is, but the steps would appear to be less than 1% each.

- Dale Adams


If underscan is the same as the VP50pro, it can't go below 75% which is not enough to center a 16/9 image on a 2.35 screen.

And if zoom is the same as the VP50pro, it can't go below 100% so it can't be used to center a 16/9 image on a 2.35 screen too.

Richard.

(The DVDO processors can do the same with 50 Hz progressive to 25 Hz as well, by the way.)


Can DVDOs extract 25 Hz frames from 60 Hz sources? I had a discussion related to this with a BD mastering person here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14315180#post14315180

--Andre

Can DVDOs extract 25 Hz frames from 60 Hz sources? I had a discussion related to this with a BD mastering person here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14315180#post14315180No. And you may well not want it to, anyway.

Some professional standards conversion systems blend original frames together to produce a different output frame rate. In some of the 50-to-60 Hz conversion results I've seen, all of the original frames are no longer present in the converted video. That may even be the case for state of the art systems using motion compensation, as conversion from 25 Hz to 60 Hz results in some original 25 Hz frames not having an exact temporal alignment with the 60 Hz output frames.

In other words, it may not be possible to extract the original frames (if you could even identify them) since they are not all still there after the conversion. Even if they were all there, the current cadence detection logic in the ABT2010 chip (which is used in the Edge) does not perform the necessary type of analysis to identify the original frames in this type of source material.

- Dale Adams

Hi Dale........ nice to see you back around the Dungeon!

Just to be clear here: You're claiming that your Lumagen HDP will convert a 720p60 source with 3:2 pulldown to 108p24, showing each original film frame exactly once?

- Dale Adams

I confirmed the VisionHDP does not have this capability.

No. And you may well not want it to, anyway.

This contradicts in my view the recommendation Josh gave me for exactly that purpose: proper deinterlacing and scaling of transcoded material (NTSC to PAL)

So what is the deal, will the EDGE do a proper job or not?

Neko

This contradicts in my view the recommendation Josh gave me for exactly that purpose: proper deinterlacing and scaling of transcoded material (NTSC to PAL)

So what is the deal, will the EDGE do a proper job or not?Andre asked about frame rate conversion, and, in particular, extraction of original film frames to be used as the basis of that frame rate conversion.

You're asking about deinterlacing and scaling, and that's a very different issue. For transcoded material the real problem is deinterlacing - i.e., will the deinterlacer properly handle material where a repeating cadence (if present) has been distorted, possibly severely, due to the transcoding process. In this case, what you really want the deinterlacer to do is to stay in video mode all the time. The Edge's deinterlacer has logic to identify cases such as transcoded material and handle it appropriately. Whether the end result meets your definition of "proper" or not is a subjective call that only you can make.

- Dale Adams

I confirmed the VisionHDP does not have this capability.

That is correct. Additionally, I've followed the Radiance thread pretty closely and I don't believe it will do this either. The only other processor that I'm aware of that will is what's in the Pio Kuro displays. It will take a 720p60 film source, extract p24 and display at p72. It works ok but with some artifacting (occasional jerkiness in the image).

:o

This is inaccurate...My Lumagen VisionHDP upscales and deinterlaces all scan rates to 1080p24 or 1080p60.

Are you 100% sure it will take a 720p/60 input and output it at 1080p/24 ?

edit: oops, for some reason my browser only showed the first post on this page at first :blush:

Any chance of a corrected 50Hz porch output for CRT users?

E.g an extra two or three output modes

CRT - 720p@50Hz
CRT - 1080i@50Hz
CRT - 1080p@50Hz

I think with the value of CRT's becoming lower this could open up your market to a range of CRT users that don't want to pay big bucks for a processor, but would like to use this in conjunction with a HD Fury etc.

So no chance of any extra CRT friendly fixed resolutions?

So no chance of any extra CRT friendly fixed resolutions?

We have no plans to support non-standard formats on EDGE. These include these resolutions that you are asking about.

No. And you may well not want it to, anyway.

Thanks Dale. That was very helpful information.

--Andre

There's no overscan control, per se. But the zoom control, which performs a similar function, goes by percentages. Underscan is not by a fixed amount, but is adjustable on a scale from 0 to 100. I'm not sure what the maximum underscan percentage is, but the steps would appear to be less than 1% each.

- Dale Adams

Thanks! That's good enough, I always have this problem with my Samsung 5084 for non-JustScan setting, it always overscan by 5% and this can't be adjusted. So underscan 7-10% should do the trick well.

josh i sent in my form for beta tester,when will i be contacted? will it be from a dealer in VANCOUVER BC.Or someone from AVS forum.?

I scanned the thread but didn't spot an answer to the following question (Sorry if I missed it).

My SkyHD box will potentially output 576p,720p or 1080i. Given these will be on a single input can the Edge assign different settings for different res/freq on the same input ?

D

My SkyHD box will potentially output 576p,720p or 1080i. Given these will be on a single input can the Edge assign different settings for different res/freq on the same input ? And will it auto-switch?

If underscan is the same as the VP50pro, it can't go below 75% which is not enough to center a 16/9 image on a 2.35 screen.

This sounds about right since I have mine set to 20 out of 100 to correct for around 5% (a number I discovered using my Nvidia software) . It seems that each increment is very close to 1/4 percent. My television also doesn't quite display a perfect 1.78:1 at this setting and I need to use the Aspect ratio setting at 1.77:1 to have the image fit perfect along with a +1,-2 shift. As I mentioned before this is one of the main reasons why I bought a DVDO, and wouldn't consider a processor without these features.

Josh,

I believe that there are a number of CIH users who are interested in the product based on some of the posts here and also in the CIH forum. However several (including me) are still confused about the product and the ability to use it with a CIH system. Can you check in on this: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14376541#post14376541 thread or add additional information here?

Thanks,
T.Wells

Hi Josh,

The EDGE looks very promising and I can't wait to beta test it. Will it come with a DVDO test DVD or BluRay disk?

Cheers.

Good day,

Is there any way that the Mods can create a special "Beta Forum" where the users in the Beta program can share information? I would assume that you can restrict it to Beta test users?

This could help having the beta testers send you questions / concerns that might be similiar to other requests.

Hoping the Beta machines ship in the next week. Got lots of time and test material to go thru.

Good day,

Is there any way that the Mods can create a special "Beta Forum" where the users in the Beta program can share information? I would assume that you can restrict it to Beta test users?

This could help having the beta testers send you questions / concerns that might be similiar to other requests.

Hoping the Beta machines ship in the next week. Got lots of time and test material to go thru.

We plan on doing this ourselves. All information will be communicated directly to the Public Beta testers just prior to recieving their EDGEs.

For all of those that have been selected to be Public Beta testers that do not plan on returning their agreements, please let me know so that we can extend the offer to someone else that is interested.

If you have questions or concerns, please send me an email.

General question: Would the EDGE go before or after a upscaling AVR that presently has a bug that will not allow the Torino chip to be turned off? (H/K 354).

Or is this anticipated by the availability of the HDMI "digital" output in the EDGE acting as a splitter so you can HDMI out to the display all the upscaled improved goodness and the other HDMI audio-only out to the AVR for tru/MA goodness?

Or, for beta testers, try it in all three places (as splitter/before AVR/after AVR)?

OOOOOH, I'm so on EDGE I just can't wait.:)

Then EDGE would output the preferred format for that display, which may or may not be 1366x768. All of the timing descriptors for the preferred format are also included in the EDID.

Having read thru more Panny literature, I'm fairly certain that the 'preferred format' being communicated in this case is 720p despite the fact that it is a native 768p panel. :(

Having read thru more Panny literature, I'm fairly certain that the 'preferred format' being communicated in this case is 720p despite the fact that it is a native 768p panel. :(

What difference does it make? You are feeding it 720p without the Edge too.

So I take it if we haven't heard from DVDO or AVS we have not been selected to be public beta testers??

Josh. I'm just waiting for confirmation of the delivered UK price before faxing the agreement. I have sent you a PM and email.

So I take it if we haven't heard from DVDO or AVS we have not been selected to be public beta testers??

Not necessarily, in your case it means that you need to check your 'Junk' email folder, or send me another email address that I can respond to.

Josh. I'm just waiting for confirmation of the delivered UK price before faxing the agreement. I have sent you a PM and email.

We are working out the international pricing with our international distributors and I will be able to answer this tomorrow.

Not necessarily, in your case it means that you need to check your 'Junk' email folder, or send me another email address that I can respond to.

Thanks for the quick response (always top notch response and info from you and dale on these boards). I've sent you a PM with an alternate email address as I've already emptied my junk folder today for the original email address I submitted.

We are working out the international pricing with our international distributors and I will be able to answer this tomorrow.I'd been keen to know this as well. Sent back the signed form earlier today.

What difference does it make? You are feeding it 720p without the Edge too.

Why spend the money on a nice video processor just to have your display rescale? That's how I feel as a 768p owner. I already have an Oppo 983 for DVD, so all i really need this for is cable. I own an Algolith Flea, which I use for cable and after my Oppo. Is it worth $800 just for cable deinterlacing/scaling just to have me display's so-so scaling kick in with the final word? If I could get pixel mapping, I'd replace my Oppo with a VP (only if it's scaling/deinterlacing was caparable or better than the 983). Hell, I don't even know what resolutions my display will accept and over what inputs. :( (I got 1360x768 from my computer, but over component. Native Res. is 1366x768)

I'm REALLY hating my TV now. 768p (will it even accept native res.?), no 480i over HDMI (stuck with cable box deinterlacing)... Decisions. 1. Save for a new TV? Really don't want to do this. 2. Get this much cheaper VP and deal with my TV rescaling. Leaning towards this. 3. Get an expensive VP that can do custom resolutions. Can't afford, long ways away. 4. Except what I've got... I really can't stand my SD cable, although the Flea helped. I know cable is garbage, but ANYTHING should deinterlace better than my cable box!

Maybe DVDO would just make me a cheap deinterlacing box based on the ABT102. Please, please... :D

Why spend the money on a nice video processor just to have your display rescale? That's how I feel as a 768p owner. I already have an Oppo 983 for DVD, so all i really need this for is cable. I own an Algolith Flea, which I use for cable and after my Oppo. Is it worth $800 just for cable deinterlacing/scaling just to have me display's so-so scaling kick in with the final word? If I could get pixel mapping, I'd replace my Oppo with a VP (only if it's scaling/deinterlacing was caparable or better than the 983). Hell, I don't even know what resolutions my display will accept and over what inputs. :(

I'm REALLY hating my TV now. 768p (will it even accept native res.?), no 480i over HDMI (stuck with cable box deinterlacing)... Decisions. 1. Save for a new TV? Really don't want to do this. 2. Get this much cheaper VP and deal with my TV rescaling. Leaning towards this. 3. Get an expensive VP that can do custom resolutions. Can't afford, long ways away. 4. Except what I've got... I really can't stand my SD cable, although the Flea helped.

Maybe DVDO would just make me a cheap deinterlacing box based on the ABT102. Please, please... :D

What TV do you have.

Hi Josh ,

I don't think I've seen anyone ask this yet and it may too early for you to reply but are there any plans to be able upgrade or trade-in or trade-up to an Edge from a previous DVDO iScan ?

Scott..................:)

What TV do you have.

Samsung HP-S5053

If you know anything about what it accepts or how to find out, I'd love to know. Nothing in the owners manual or even in the Owner's Thread here on AVS. I've been thinking about calling up Samsung to talk to a tech. about it. Don't know how that would go...

Samsung HP-S5053

If you know anything about what it accepts or how to find out, I'd love to know. Nothing in the owners manual or even in the Owner's Thread here on AVS. I've been thinking about calling up Samsung to talk to a tech. about it. Don't know how that would go...I tried this with Westinghouse. Utter disaster and a waste of my time. The only publicly available number puts you in touch with clueless phone-answering CSRs. They *may* begin reading from the manual to you-most likely from a chapter with nothing to do with screen resolution. You will ask to have you call "escalated" to a manager, or someone with half a brain for electronics.

If you get that far, management does not have any contact info for anyone that can help you. I can't blame them--they're not even on the same continent!

By some miracle I was able to wrestle away from them a number for an authorized repair depot in the states. I called that number and was told (rather rudely) that I could not speak with a tech (or anyone for that matter) as it is a matter of policy. "Call tech support" I was told. I tried to explain the situation but was hung up on. Niiiiiice.

Hope you have better luck with Samsung, but I wouldn't hold your breath. Good customer service seems to be a forgotten art, save a few companies I choose to give my money to (Lumagen and DVDO falling within that list).

Samsung HP-S5053

If you know anything about what it accepts or how to find out, I'd love to know. Nothing in the owners manual or even in the Owner's Thread here on AVS. I've been thinking about calling up Samsung to talk to a tech. about it. Don't know how that would go...

Have you heard of Google? Type it in and all of that is in the very first search result (http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/samsung-hp-s5053/4505-6482_7-31628177.html?tag=sub).

What difference does it make? You are feeding it 720p without the Edge too.

There are external video processors available that can force feed it (it being a TH-50PH11UK, for example) the native 1366x768, in which case no scaling would be done by the TV.

Hey all!
Josh sent me a list of current people that have returned their NDA. I will be contacting everyone tomorrow so if you do NOT hear from me by around 4pm eastern tomorrow, please feel free to email me at jason@avscience.com and I will check on it (assuming you have sent in your NDA).

We are working out the international pricing with our international distributors and I will be able to answer this tomorrow.

Josh, I have signed the first document and emailed back. Basically you can forget about the Singapore distributor. The users in Singapore can self help and we do not really need to go through a closing-down-status kind of middleman. If possible, please appoint a suitable distributor to handle the future official orders. We can ship the stuff ourselves through our shipping agent who has offices in the states. So you can just treat our shipment like a domestic shipment. It will cost us much cheaper to get the shipping agent to divert our stuff back to Singapore, and faster too :D

For those who are asking for 768p output from the EDGE, why wouldn't you take 1080p instead? 768p will definitely lose a lot of details and let your TV do the downscaling!

Have you heard of Google?

Have you heard of competent reading skills? I don't think my question deserved a rude response, especially since your answer gave me no info to what I asked. I am familiar with that link, and nowhere in it does it say what resolutions the HDMI input will accept.

I have a PM box if you have anything else to say...

Samsung HP-S5053

If you know anything about what it accepts or how to find out, I'd love to know. Nothing in the owners manual or even in the Owner's Thread here on AVS. I've been thinking about calling up Samsung to talk to a tech. about it. Don't know how that would go...

I don't have any info to back this up but I'd be very surprised if you can feed your Samsung native res and get a picture let alone remove your panels brains from the signal loop. AFAIK only the Commercial series panels can be fed their native resolution and provide a dot for dot picture. Even then it's usually only via DVI that it's possible.

I don't have any info to back this up but I'd be very surprised if you can feed your Samsung native res and get a picture let alone remove your panels brains from the signal loop. AFAIK only the Commercial series panels can be fed their native resolution and provide a dot for dot picture. Even then it's usually only via DVI that it's possible.

Someone in the owners thread said they were able to send 1360x768 atleast, but did not say if it was over VGA or HDMI. (I PM'd him, but no response.) I was able to over VGA, but not able to test out HDMI. I did not get anything with 1366x768 over VGA. 720p/1080i from my HD player over HDMI looked better than 1360x768 from my computer over VGA. Computer has an NVidia 8600GTS, and I was using a Xbox addon with HD movies also. I may not have had the timings correct, I didn't play with it much. I'm pretty clueless about custom resolutions.

Thanks for your input. :)

(Don't mean to take this thread so OT.)

Someone in the owners thread said they were able to send 1360x768 atleast, but did not say if it was over VGA or HDMI. (I PM'd him, but no response.) I was able to over VGA, but not able to test out HDMI. I did not get anything with 1366x768 over VGA. 720p/1080i from my HD player over HDMI looked better than 1360x768 from my computer over VGA. Computer has an NVidia 8600GTS, and I was using a Xbox addon with HD movies also. I may not have had the timings correct, I didn't play with it much. I'm pretty clueless about custom resolutions.

Thanks for your input. :)

(Don't mean to take this thread so OT.)

Exploring what panels would be complimented by a product such as the Edge is very on-topic! :)

My Westinghouse W4207 will take 1366x768 and 1360x768 over VGA and DVI. Can't remember which was which. Simply blanked 3 lines on either side. Could have sworn I got it to do it over HDMI too--will double check this next weekend--too busy till then.

Doesn't like my macbook pro one bit. Tried displayX but couldn't get the front and back porch set so that it was happy. That's what I was trying to talk to a tech about. If anyone knows the timings, PM me! (PC works no problem--no need for any fancy configuring.)

Someone in the owners thread said they were able to send 1360x768 atleast, but did not say if it was over VGA or HDMI. (I PM'd him, but no response.) I was able to over VGA, but not able to test out HDMI. I did not get anything with 1366x768 over VGA. 720p/1080i from my HD player over HDMI looked better than 1360x768 from my computer over VGA. Computer has an NVidia 8600GTS, and I was using a Xbox addon with HD movies also. I may not have had the timings correct, I didn't play with it much. I'm pretty clueless about custom resolutions.

Thanks for your input. :)

(Don't mean to take this thread so OT.)

Your Samsung will take 1360 x 768 @ 60Hz via the VGA port (you could use HDMI to VGA i.e. using an HDFury cable), and it's the only way you can get native resolution. EDGE won't output in this format, so you'd be looking at another of DVDO's VPs to get native resolution.

The VP will be better at scaling to the native resolution than the XBox will be (it has to convert games/films from 720/1080 to 768). So you'd get a better picture again.

There are external video processors available that can force feed it (it being a TH-50PH11UK, for example) the native 1366x768, in which case no scaling would be done by the TV.

This thread is about the Edge processor and scaling will have to be done whether the source is the Edge or a player. The point is there are still more important benefits to be had such as the superior de-interlacing of the Edge.

Just getting my head around the refresh rate thing.

You have to set either 1080p/50 or 1080p/60 or 1080p/24?

You can't select 1080P and it'll output at the incoming refresh rate?

SkyHD or Pal DVDs - 50hz

NTSC DVDs and HD-DVDs - 60hz

Film based - 24hz

I'm assuming I'll have to change the output when changing from one to the other? I can understand this when wanting 24hz from 50hz or 60hz, but it'll be a bit annoying when going from 50hz to 60hz to vice versa.

If I have the Edge set to 1080p/50...

And I input a 60hz or a 1080p/24 signal will it change the refresh rate to 50hz?

What effect will this conversion have on the picture?

And vice versa....If I have the Edge set to output 1080p/24 and the Mrs puts on SkyHD at 50hz, what's going to happen? Apart from me getting shouted at ;)

It mentions in the first post that overscan can be set differently for SD and HD from the same input, is this correct?

Thanks,
Stuart.

This thread is about the Edge processor and scaling will have to be done whether the source is the Edge or a player. The point is there are still more important benefits to be had such as the superior de-interlacing of the Edge.

Josh explained in a previous post that the EDGE set to auto will output the 'preferred' format as communicated by the TV. Speaking for those of us with native 768p TVs, I'm interested in what our TVs will be telling the EDGE to send: 720p or 768p. I agree with you that the EDGE will be of great value even if it isn't actually capable of sending the native format in this case. :)

Josh explained in a previous post that the EDGE set to auto will output the 'preferred' format as communicated by the TV. Speaking for those of us with native 768p TVs, I'm interested in what our TVs will be telling the EDGE to send: 720p or 768p. I agree with you that the EDGE will be of great value even if it isn't actually capable of sending the native format in this case. :)

Then EDGE would output the preferred format for that display, which may or may not be 1366x768. All of the timing descriptors for the preferred format are also included in the EDID.

Have you tried a Panasonic thread? Your question is really about the TV, not the Edge, correct?

Josh explained in a previous post that the EDGE set to auto will output the 'preferred' format as communicated by the TV. Speaking for those of us with native 768p TVs, I'm interested in what our TVs will be telling the EDGE to send: 720p or 768p. I agree with you that the EDGE will be of great value even if it isn't actually capable of sending the native format in this case. :)

I think Josh's post was misleading. I THINK the Edge will output the preferred format when set to AUTO but only one of the half dozen preset output resolutions, and 768p is not one of them.

Is there any point to attaching one of these to a 1080i-only RPTV (component-only, no HDMI), to scale output from my DirectTV HR21 DVR and my DVD player? Or am I better off letting the DVR do the scaling until I eventually upgrade my set to something more current that does 1080p?

I'm guessing no point, since I'm not seeing any component out on the i/o panel in the opening shots. :(

Have you tried a Panasonic thread? Your question is really about the TV, not the Edge, correct?

Actually, my original question was more about the EDGE because it isn't clear to me how flexible it is when set to "auto" format. Specifically, would the EDGE output 'non-standard' resolutions such as 1024x768, 1365x768, 1366x768, 1920x1200, etc., or is it actually locked into 'standard' resolution output only.

Per previous posts the Edge will only output the listed standard resolutions.

EDGE is capable of detecting the "preferred" format that is reported by a display in its EDID. If that "preferred" format is not one of the default formats supported by EDGE (480p, 576p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p, or VGA) it can still be selected using the 'Auto' Output Format selection option. So if you have a 1920x1200 display that reports that 1920x1200 is the "preferred" format (which most PC monitors do) you will be able to output this resolution from your EDGE. If your display is a 1366x768 LCD that reports that its "preferred" format is 720p you will not be able to output the native resolution of this display.

Call me crazy, but I read this as meaning that the EDGE can output 1920x1200, which is 'non-standard'

I am confused now too-easy to do:)

This seems to say a non-standard resolution can be output as long as its reported as the preferred resolution of the display.

I too would like clarification

Call me crazy, but I read this as meaning that the EDGE can output 1920x1200, which is 'non-standard'

I think what you are missing is that a 1920x1200 (WUXGA) display is designed as a computer monitor. Every computer monitor that I have connected EDGE to has the correct timing descriptors for the preferred output format which EDGE can output when in the 'Auto' Output Format mode.

I am confused now too-easy to do:)

This seems to say a non-standard resolution can be output as long as its reported as the preferred resolution of the display.

I too would like clarification

+2

I think Josh's post was misleading. I THINK the Edge will output the preferred format when set to AUTO but only one of the half dozen preset output resolutions, and 768p is not one of them.

What EDGE can output above and beyond the default output formats is determined by the display. If the display's preferred timing is not one of the default output formats, EDGE can still output this timing, given that all of the proper timing descriptors are included.

Actually, my original question was more about the EDGE because it isn't clear to me how flexible it is when set to "auto" format. Specifically, would the EDGE output 'non-standard' resolutions such as 1024x768, 1365x768, 1366x768, 1920x1200, etc., or is it actually locked into 'standard' resolution output only.

Ok so what you need to know is if your TV has all of the proper timing descriptors. Good luck with that one. ;)

Thanks Josh

I think I understand now.

What EDGE can output above and beyond the default output formats is determined by the display. If the display's preferred timing is not one of the default output formats, EDGE can still output this timing, given that all of the proper timing descriptors are included.Soooo...if our displays don't communicate this properly (768) would something like a DVI doctor successfully bridge this gap? Or does a DVI doctor rely on the same timing info being "broadcast"? If anyone knows...

Ok so what you need to know is if your TV has all of the proper timing descriptors. Good luck with that one. ;)

What is important is if your display reports the correct preferred timing that will in turn give you 1:1 pixel mapping, preferrably at the native resolution.

What EDGE can output above and beyond the default output formats is determined by the display. If the display's preferred timing is not one of the default output formats, EDGE can still output this timing, given that all of the proper timing descriptors are included.

Thanks for the clarification Josh.

Would the use of an HDMI to DVI adapter compromise what the display reports to the Edge?

Is anyone with a 1366x768 Panny Pro getting a Beta Unit?

i am interested in getting on the list of potential customers to buy this unit from beta testers if they don't want it. how can i go about doing this? it would be a disservice to all if i were a tester as i have little time. thanks.

Thanks for the clarification Josh.

Would the use of an HDMI to DVI adapter compromise what the display reports to the Edge?

Is anyone with a 1366x768 Panny Pro getting a Beta Unit?

Sadly for us in Europe, you'd have to use a DVI EDID emulator to report the right 1366x768 timings then feed the signal into a HDFury or similar in order to get native res @ 50Hz into a commercial Panny (short of a PF9 or PF10) via VGA

So Josh; sorry if this is repeating things ad nauseum but... on my vp50 I don't have to use any Display Profile* in order to achieve this;

HDMI1 input (SkyHD):
576p (PREP on) output at 1080p/50
1080i/50 (PREP irrelevant) also output at 1080p/50

HDMI2 input (DVD):
480p (PREP on) output at 1080p/24
576p (PREP on) output at 1080p/50.

HDMI3 input (HD DVD):
1080i/60 output at 1080p/24

You're saying that the EDGE won't be able to do that and I'd have to manually switch between the 2 principal output resolutions that I use? Albeit with discretes.

* As far as I can see, the only reason, with a single display, to use Display Profiles is if for a single input/res/freq combination you sometimes want to output a different frequency (only example I can think of is if you watch R1 video based DVDs from TV shows where you want 60Hz output instead of 24)

Some noob questions:

1. Most of the content I watch these days is 1080p film or video content on bluray/PS3. Would DVDO provide any benefit to 1080p content like this (my projector does support 24 and 60 source content with a refresh rate 48, 60, etc)? Since there is no deinterlacing, scaling, or frame rate conversion required, is there any added benefit? (Other than the per-input image adjustments)

2. For standard DVD content, would I need to use a player that supports 480i out to get maximum benefit (such as one of the Oppos)? Or does PReP feature mean that dvd content that is dinterlaced by the PS3 can be re-interlaced then de-interlaced by the Edge, obviating the need for a player that supports 480i out? In other words, is there a way to get 1080p/24 from a dvd from the PS3 with the Edge doing all the scaling, deinterlacing, etc.?

Thank you!
Armando

Or does PReP feature mean that dvd content that is dinterlaced by the PS3 can be re-interlaced then de-interlaced by the Edge, obviating the need for a player that supports 480i out? In other words, is there a way to get 1080p/24 from a dvd from the PS3 with the Edge doing all the scaling, deinterlacing, etc.?

Correct, that's what PReP is for. The only time it wouldn't work is if the PS3 was applying some sort of filtering to the output so that the original 240 lines in each field were altered before being sent in the 480p frame.

Is anyone with a 1366x768 Panny Pro getting a Beta Unit?

Yes :D

Any chance of getting a AVS group purchase price?

hey guys, is this better than the VintageHD running on HQV Realta chip? A friend of mine who own this claimed that it's making full use of the HQV Realta features.....

and on the other hand.....another friend kept discouraging me from even joining the beta test, coz there is a limit for SD->HD no matter how you scale :(

What is the return policy for a beta tester on the EDGE if not satisfied with how the unit performs or works with our equipment?

Mr Ian B

I am somewhat unclear on the audio input assignability. Can you double up?

For instance, if I have an inday component switch feeding component #1, can I route 2 opticals, 1 coaxial and 1 stereo pair all to component #1? (component #2 will be taken with RGBHV). I am trying to decide between the Zektor and the Inday, and it seems there is lower loss with the Inday but no audio capabilities. That won't matter if I can perform the above...

Thanks!

edit: only 1 audio source would be live at a time--or perhaps there could be a priority set in the case of multiple signals present?

So Josh; sorry if this is repeating things ad nauseum but... on my vp50 I don't have to use any Display Profile* in order to achieve this;

HDMI1 input (SkyHD):
576p (PREP on) output at 1080p/50
1080i/50 (PREP irrelevant) also output at 1080p/50

HDMI2 input (DVD):
480p (PREP on) output at 1080p/24
576p (PREP on) output at 1080p/50.

HDMI3 input (HD DVD):
1080i/60 output at 1080p/24

You're saying that the EDGE won't be able to do that and I'd have to manually switch between the 2 principal output resolutions that I use? Albeit with discretes.

* As far as I can see, the only reason, with a single display, to use Display Profiles is if for a single input/res/freq combination you sometimes want to output a different frequency (only example I can think of is if you watch R1 video based DVDs from TV shows where you want 60Hz output instead of 24)
PLEASE can we have a definitive answer to this.

A related question: When a output is selected, does one select a resolution (e.g. 1080p) or resolution and frequency (e.g. 1080p24)?

Edit: What would happen with a European PS3 which can output 576p50 (for DVD), 1080p24 (for Blu-Ray), and 1080p60 (for games)?

hey guys, is this better than the VintageHD running on HQV Realta chip? A friend of mine who own this claimed that it's making full use of the HQV Realta features.....

and on the other hand.....another friend kept discouraging me from even joining the beta test, coz there is a limit for SD->HD no matter how you scale :(
True

but how close to the limit would you like to get?

Having seen dodgy deinterlacing plenty of times and the horrendous ringing you get on (for example) the Panasonic PZ80 when scaling even 720p to 1080p, I'd say £400 is money well spent if this even comes close to the performance of the VP50Pro.

But with that said the VP is capable of accepting a 1080p signal and downconverting it to 1080i?

Unless you've got a CRT based display that can handle 1080i well, I'm not sure why you would want to do this? Would it not be better to use (say) 720p if it's a plasma or LCD?

What is the return policy for a beta tester on the EDGE if not satisfied with how the unit performs or works with our equipment?

Mr Ian B

Read the NDA you signed (if you signed it). It clearly tells you this info.

Read the NDA you signed (if you signed it). It clearly tells you this info.

It would be nice if the question could be answered for others who are on the fence about applying, though...

It would be nice if the question could be answered for others who are on the fence about applying, though...


I overlooked it in the form. It says, "By signing this agreement, the User understands that there are no rights to return the product for a full refund."

Mr Ian B

Guess what I have? But only until I ship them out... :D

Yup...DVDO Edge units...I will start forwarding tracking this evening for those who I have already contacted.

(If you have not been contacted yet hold tight...I'm-a-workin'-on-it. :) ).

Guess what I have? But only until I ship them out... :D

Yup...DVDO Edge units...I will start forwarding tracking this evening for those who I have already contacted.

(If you have not been contacted yet hold tight...I'm-a-workin'-on-it. :) ).

Awesome! Thanks for the update.

Guess what I have? But only until I ship them out... :D

Yup...DVDO Edge units...I will start forwarding tracking this evening for those who I have already contacted.

(If you have not been contacted yet hold tight...I'm-a-workin'-on-it. :) ).

Wow, that was fast! Thanks Jason and thanks DVDO!
I got my notification for expected delivery on Monday. Can't wait! :)

Guess what I have? But only until I ship them out... :D

Dumb question, perhaps, but will an HDMI cable be shipped with the unit?

I am sure NO on the HDMI cable. If you are asking then you should probably not be BETA testing it. ;)

Mine shows delivery for tomorrow! This weekend will be fun!!! :eek:

Mine shows delivery for tomorrow! This weekend will be fun!!! :eek:
I am officially voting you least-likely-to-actually-comply-with-the-NDA. Within a week you'll have both Onkyo and DVDO's lawyers tag-teaming your ass. :p

No way, I promise to not say a word until they say I can. I have never violated a NDA with any company. Seriously. ;)

I am sure NO on the HDMI cable. If you are asking then you should probably not be BETA testing it. ;)

Like I said, dumb question. I figured what the heck, if Oppo is giving 'em away, maybe Anchor Bay is too :)

Still waiting for word to see if I'll be a lucky beta tester (fingers crossed). This is so exciting. Not only do we get a reduced cost for the product, but I hope to help out too in the beta testing process.

EDIT: Looks like I received an auto reply saying that the person who goes through the questionnaires will be out until Aug. 4. So I won't have a decision until next week. :-(

We are working out the international pricing with our international distributors and I will be able to answer this tomorrow.

Any news on the UK prices yet?

I am just more than happy to help them out. DVDO is here at AVS and one of my new goals is to support the companies that participate here... ;)

I am sure NO on the HDMI cable. If you are asking then you should probably not be BETA testing it. ;)

Mine shows delivery for tomorrow! This weekend will be fun!!! :eek:

How did you get 1 day service from Rochester NY?:cool:

I payed for it... :D I will be more than happy to work this entire weekend on it. I am going on my one and only vacation of 2008 late next week so it is perfect timing... :)

I payed for it... :D I will be more than happy to work this entire weekend on it. I am going on my one and only vacation of 2008 late next week so it is perfect timing... :)

Good move::D

I am taking this seriously. I have my dispalys arranged and ready. I have a series of my own tests I will do with each one of them. I plan to work all weekend with the Edge... Of course I will NOT report my findings here (only to them)... :)

Good luck, Joe. I am still waiting on my shipping info from Jason but expect to receive it soon.

It should go by best-looking which would make me first.

Good one Gary J! :D I would at least come in third or fourth here... :D

OK, I've searched what I thought would be relevant threads but can't find a definitive answer, so I'll just ask here:

Was the treatment of 240p video (gaming) ever sorted out on the vp50, and by extension, will it be functioning in the EDGE? If not right now...will it ever?

Thanks!

No way, I promise to not say a word until they say I can. I have never violated a NDA with any company. Seriously. ;)
I'm just busting your chops. Did I read a few pages back that there would be a closed forum for Beta participants to share experiences? That would certainly be quite useful.

I am sure NO on the HDMI cable. If you are asking then you should probably not be BETA testing it. ;)

Mine shows delivery for tomorrow! This weekend will be fun!!! :eek:


Don't testing agreements usually state something about not publicly talking about the product testing?

I hope all the testers hurry up with the testing so they can quickly offer the EDGE for sale to us consumers.

PLEASE can we have a definitive answer to this.

A related question: When a output is selected, does one select a resolution (e.g. 1080p) or resolution and frequency (e.g. 1080p24)?

Edit: What would happen with a European PS3 which can output 576p50 (for DVD), 1080p24 (for Blu-Ray), and 1080p60 (for games)?

What if the display can accomodate both a 1080p60 and a 1080p24 signal?

For example, if someone has a Kuro that can refresh at either 60hz or 72hz, can the user tell the EDGE that if film is detected, then output 1080p24 otherwise output 1080p60?

An example would be changing the channel from a CBS NFL game to an NBC Law and Order episode. Would I manually have to go into the EDGE and select 1080p24?

What if the display can accomodate both a 1080p60 and a 1080p24 signal?

For example, if someone has a Kuro that can refresh at either 60hz or 72hz, can the user tell the EDGE that if film is detected, then output 1080p24 otherwise output 1080p60?

An example would be changing the channel from a CBS NFL game to an NBC Law and Order episode. Would I manually have to go into the EDGE and select 1080p24?

Output Formats on EDGE combine both resolution and framerate. For example: 1080p-60 is 1920 x 1080 @ 60Hz progressive. If you would like to change the Output Format between 1080p-60 and 1080p-24, you can do this by navigating the OSD or via discrete IR codes. Once a selection is made all input signals will be converted to the chosen Output Format.

Im guessing if we havent received tracking numbers it means our units havent shipped yet. Im in NJ so if it shipped today I have a shot of it being delivered tomorrow.

Yes Aaron- which is why I won't be revealing any of my results here... :)

What´s the status on the European batch?

Output Formats on EDGE combine both resolution and framerate. For example: 1080p-60 is 1920 x 1080 @ 60Hz progressive. If you would like to change the Output Format between 1080p-60 and 1080p-24, you can do this by navigating the OSD or via discrete IR codes. Once a selection is made all input signals will be converted to the chosen Output Format.So if I watch a Blu-Ray movie on my PS3 one evening @1080p24, and my (young) kid pops in a PAL DVD the following day, he's going to be watching it at 1080p24? This isn't very family friendly.

So if I watch a Blu-Ray movie on my PS3 one evening @1080p24, and my (young) kid pops in a PAL DVD the following day, he's going to be watching it at 1080p24? This isn't very family friendly.

This is a different situation than what Josh responded to, because in your situation you're changing the input format. If I understand this correctly (and it is like with the VP's), it will be like this: The EDGE has memories for output mode based on input mode (right, Josh?) So, you will set it up to output 1080P/24 when the input is 1080P/24, and 1080P/60 when the input is 480i/p, 720P/60, 1080i/60 or 1080P/60, and 1080P/50 output for 576i/p, 720P/50, 1080i/50 and 1080P/50. What it will NOT do is auto-detect a 24P sequence within a 60 Hz source, and change the output automatically, for players without 24P output, for this you will need to manually change the output to 1080P/24 (it is not practical to have on-the-fly output changes). For your situation, the output format will follow the input format, so when you put in a BD, the EDGE will output 1080P/24, when you put in a PAL DVD, it will output 1080P/50.

This is a different situation than what Josh responded to, because in your situation you're changing the input format. If I understand this correctly (and it is like with the VP's), it will be like this: The EDGE has memories for output mode based on input mode (right, Josh?) So, you will set it up to output 1080P/24 when the input is 1080P/24, and 1080P/60 when the input is 480i/p, 720P/60, 1080i/60 or 1080P/60, and 1080P/50 output for 576i/p, 720P/50, 1080i/50 and 1080P/50. What it will NOT do is auto-detect a 24P sequence within a 60 Hz source, and change the output automatically, for players without 24P output, for this you will need to manually change the output to 1080P/24 (it is not practical to have on-the-fly output changes). For your situation, the output format will follow the input format, so when you put in a BD, the EDGE will output 1080P/24, when you put in a PAL DVD, it will output 1080P/50.If this is how it works, I have no complaints whatsoever.

What´s the status on the European batch?

Yeah, the very same question burns my soul.

This is a different situation than what Josh responded to, because in your situation you're changing the input format. If I understand this correctly (and it is like with the VP's), it will be like this: The EDGE has memories for output mode based on input mode (right, Josh?) So, you will set it up to output 1080P/24 when the input is 1080P/24, and 1080P/60 when the input is 480i/p, 720P/60, 1080i/60 or 1080P/60, and 1080P/50 output for 576i/p, 720P/50, 1080i/50 and 1080P/50. What it will NOT do is auto-detect a 24P sequence within a 60 Hz source, and change the output automatically, for players without 24P output, for this you will need to manually change the output to 1080P/24 (it is not practical to have on-the-fly output changes). For your situation, the output format will follow the input format, so when you put in a BD, the EDGE will output 1080P/24, when you put in a PAL DVD, it will output 1080P/50.

You're right that Josh was responding (again, although I think it was Dale who answered the same question earlier in the thread) to a question around output frequency based on cadence, but Josh's reply doesn't say whether the EDGE has per-input memories like the VPs and rather suggests that even if it does, that it doesn't store an output format for each. I guess I'll find out when my beta unit arrives ;)

Since I've got a pronto, I don't really care, I'd just include the discrete in a "Game" or "DVD" or "BluRay" button but I do think that not many non-technical family members will understand why they have to change output format ("whatever that is") based on content.

Having said ALL that, the popcorn hour still seems to be massively popular in spite of the fact it has a single output res for all content.

If this is how it works, I have no complaints whatsoever.
Me neither, but it would just be nice if Josh confirmed it? Either way.

Me neither, but it would just be nice if Josh confirmed it? Either way.

I think he has and we just don't like the answer ;)

I think he has and we just don't like the answer ;)

You are right! There are no display profiles like on VP50Pro and thus you will have to manually change the output when you want.

I think he has and we just don't like the answer ;)
Maybe but it's not been very clear.

It's always been in answer to the auto-switching from 60hz to 24hz based on if it's film content. And I can fully understand why this would NOT be the case.

There's never been a reply specifically to "If the input Hz changes does the output Hz change to match it?". This question had not been answered directly. Not from what I've seen.

I'm guessing this comment from Josh...means it doesn't but clarification would be nice.
Once a selection is made all input signals will be converted to the chosen Output Format.

You are right! There are no display profiles like on VP50Pro and thus you will have to manually change the output when you want.

From post #227 - covering the ability to auto select output based on input (including different res/freq on same input) -

EDGE does not have Display Profiles. If you wanted to change between three given output formats (1080p-24/50/60), you as the user would need to make this change. The easiest way to do this would be to use the discrete IR codes.

Keep in mind that EDGE is NOT a replacement for the VP50PRO, or any VP line products, and it is intended to target a different user.

D

From post #227 - covering the ability to auto select output based on input (including different res/freq on same input)*If true*, this is my first bit of feedback as a pre-beta customer:

If I have a 50Hz PAL DVD player on input 1, and a 24Hz Blu-Ray player on input 2, I should *not* have to manually change the output when I select an input. This renders auto-selection of inputs not fully automatic. I don't think this should be classified as a "display profile". PAL played at 24Hz is not going to look nice, and Blu-Rays at 50Hz will be pretty lousy too...

You are right! There are no display profiles like on VP50Pro and thus you will have to manually change the output when you want.

As already said in my earlier post, you don't need Display Profiles to support this. I never change Display Profile on my vp50.

The question is more about per-input memories on the EDGE (which it clearly has since you can set brightness etc on a per-input basis) and whether they store a distinct output format for each combination of input/res/freq ... as they do on the VPs.

The comment above from Viruskiller about the scenario where output format is not even dictated by input is more serious. In Europe, 24Hz / 50Hz has become an extremely common signal combination. I'm sure in the US, 24Hz / 60Hz is equally or more prevalent. Would people generally understand they need to change that when things start juddering? Would people that don't know that be interested in the EDGE? Is the market for this kind of between the geek videophile & mass market? Are the only people that would care about this PS3 or Tosh owners? And if so, are they probably going to just connect at 1080p to the TV anyway and not need this product? But then, it acts as a switch too and people don't like the pathetically few HDMI inputs on the back of most popular TVs... could you upsell a market that start out only looking for a $200 switch? It's interesting stuff.

*If true*, this is my first bit of feedback as a pre-beta customer:

If I have a 50Hz PAL DVD player on input 1, and a 24Hz Blu-Ray player on input 2, I should *not* have to manually change the output when I select an input. This renders auto-selection of inputs not fully automatic. I don't think this should be classified as a "display profile". PAL played at 24Hz is not going to look nice, and Blu-Rays at 50Hz will be pretty lousy too...

VK

As European user I seconds that feedback. I would speculate that PS3, Blu-ray and HD DVD players are probably a popular device amongst primary Egde target customers. To to start changing res depending on playing a DVD, Blu-ray/HD DVD movie or game will be a pain.

D

The question is more about per-input memories on the EDGE (which it clearly has since you can set brightness etc on a per-input basis) and whether they store a distinct output format for each combination of input/res/freq ... as they do on the VPs.

I agree but Josh doesn't appear to have answered this question directly (despite being asked in a number posts on here and direct by email) which is leaving us speculate based on other answers.

Are the only people that would care about this PS3 or Tosh owners?

This would affect any Blu-ray player owners who also use their player for R2 DVD.

D

I think we've clarified what the questions are that need answering definitively.

1) Will the Edge automatically switch output format depending on which physical input is selected? i.e. Can one specify an output format on a per-input memory basis?

e.g. 576p DVD on input 1, 1080p24 Blu-Ray on input 2.

2) Will the Edge automatically switch output format depending on which format is detected on the same physical input? i.e. Are there separate input memories for different input formats on the same physical input?

e.g. 576p50, 1080p24 from a PS3.

We are not asking for profiles for different displays.

As already said in my earlier post, you don't need Display Profiles to support this. I never change Display Profile on my vp50.

The question is more about per-input memories on the EDGE (which it clearly has since you can set brightness etc on a per-input basis) and whether they store a distinct output format for each combination of input/res/freq ... as they do on the VPs.

The comment above from Viruskiller about the scenario where output format is not even dictated by input is more serious. In Europe, 24Hz / 50Hz has become an extremely common signal combination. I'm sure in the US, 24Hz / 60Hz is equally or more prevalent. Would people generally understand they need to change that when things start juddering? Would people that don't know that be interested in the EDGE? Is the market for this kind of between the geek & mass market? Are the only people that would care about this PS3 or Tosh owners? And if so, are they probably going to just connect at 1080p to the TV anyway and not need this product? But then, it acts as a switch too and people don't like the pathetically few HDMI inputs on the back of most popular TVs... could you upsell a market that start out only looking for a $200 switch? It's interesting stuff.

I think this is aimed at the new HD consumer who realizes he needs to improve SD sources. He is likely to set at 1080P/60 or whatever the EDID dictates for his display and leave it. Even if he changed to 1080P/24 he may not see the difference.

Videophiles (I hate the word geeks) want and need more so high end processors will continue to be the choice.

The only poeple it "won't" effect are people is the US that only watch 60hz inputs. TV, NTSC DVDs, HD-DVD (60hz), Blu-Ray (60hz).

Anyone with either a 50hz (Pal DVD or Pal TV) or 24hz (HD-DVD or Blue-Ray) input device will have to change the output at some point. Or watch stuff at the wrong Hz.

Who says other than 24Hz is the wrong Hz? I think 24fps is so over-rated. It was not that long ago that displays could not do it and you never heard anyone complain about motion judder.

There are discrete codes for outputting 1080p-24 and 1080p-60 (as well as all other default formats) although EDGE will not switch automatically based on the content. This is done so that a typical consumer will not have to deal with a display syncing/resyncing as they are watching a film on broadcast TV with video-based commercials.

Guys this will give you the definitive answer you are looking for.

Who says other than 24Hz is the wrong Hz? I think 24fps is so over-rated. It was not that long ago that displays could not do it and you never heard anyone complain about motion judder.

Gary J
I totally agree. If the EDGE does as good a job as the VP50Pro (as expected) then the average consumer will be perfectly happy.

Guys this will give you the definitive answer you are looking for.No it doesn't. Josh was referring to auto-switching of output (1080p24, 1080p60) based on the content (video, film) of a 60Hz input.

As 60Hz video changes to 24Hz film the output does not change. You will have to change it manually. If set for 1080P/60 it will stay 1080P/60 until it is manually changed.

As an example BluRay disks are often 60Hz on the menus and switch to 24 Hz on the start of the film. The Edge will not automatically change with this change to the input.

As far as matching different outputs to each input I think the output is fixed regardless of which input is active.

Who says other than 24Hz is the wrong Hz? I think 24fps is so over-rated. It was not that long ago that displays could not do it and you never heard anyone complain about motion judder.This is true in the United States where American eyes/brains have been accustommed to telecined film judder for eons; it is not true in Europe.

PAL DVD is speeded up by 4% (24fps x1.04 = 25fps) so it can be displayed without judder at the same frequency (50Hz) as our video material.

With 24Hz output from HD DVD and Blu-Ray players, we are sensitive to telecine judder when we view at 60Hz. Quite simply, we're not conditioned to it.

As 60Hz video changes to 24Hz film the output does not change. You will have to change it manually. If set for 1080P/60 it will stay 1080P/60 until it is manually changed.Agreed, if there is a change in video/film content within an unchanging 1080p60 input.

As an example BluRay disks are often 60Hz on the menus and switch to 24 Hz on the start of the film. The Edge will not automatically change with this change to the inputThis is different. The format output from the player changes from 1080p60 to 1080p24. This is different to 60Hz video and 24Hz film content being extracted from a 1080i60 or 1080p60 input.

As 60Hz video changes to 24Hz film the output does not change. You will have to change it manually. If set for 1080P/60 it will stay 1080P/60 until it is manually changed.

As an example BluRay disks are often 60Hz on the menus and switch to 24 Hz on the start of the film. The Edge will not automatically change with this change to the input

True, if the output of the player remains at 60 Hz. However, if the player puts out 60 Hz in the menu, and then changes to 24 Hz _output_ from the player when the film starts, then we want the EDGE to automatically change the output to 24 Hz, and not remain at 60 Hz. Frankly, I refuse to believe that DVDO has designed a scaler incapable of this, and if I'm proven wrong, this will be a MAJOR issue in my opinion. DVDO should not put out a product marketed for the average consumer without the ability to do this. But, I believe that when morning breaks stateside, and Josh gets to the keyboard again, he will confirm if this is the case.

EDIT: Viruskiller got there first... :-)

Otto

Even my VP50Pro did not automatically switch. I had to set up profiles for each resolution and set for auto to achieve this.

I would like this as well but I think you will not get the answer you are hoping for.

This is true in the United States where American eyes/brains have been accustommed to telecined film judder for eons; it is not true in Europe.

PAL DVD is speeded up by 4% (24fps x1.04 = 25fps) so it can be displayed without judder at the same frequency (50Hz) as our video material.

With 24Hz output from HD DVD and Blu-Ray players, we are sensitive to telecine judder when we view at 60Hz. Quite simply, we're not conditioned to it.

So you want the Edge to be all things to all people at the same price-point? What if I do not have a display that accepts 24Hz or 50Hz? Should I ask for a cheaper version of the Edge without that processing?

Otto

Even my VP50Pro did not automatically switch. I had to set up profiles for each resolution and set for auto to achieve this.

I would like this as well but I think you will not get the answer you are hoping for.
My VP50pro is set to output 1080P24 with 1080P24 content and output 1080P60 for everything else. You adjust these setting in the framerate setting. And it automatically switches the output based on what settings you make in the framerate section.

So you want the Edge to be all things to all people at the same price-point?No, that is impossible. What I want is a small feature to remove a considerable inconvenience when using functionality already slated for this product.

What if I do not have a display that accepts 24Hz or 50Hz? Should I ask for a cheaper version of the Edge without that processing?Why not?

Who says other than 24Hz is the wrong Hz? I think 24fps is so over-rated. It was not that long ago that displays could not do it and you never heard anyone complain about motion judder.
Firstly I never said anything other than 24Hz is wrong. I was saying that if locked to say output 60hz any input other than 60hz (i.e. 24hz or 50hz will be output at the wrong Hz, not it's native rate).

Fair enough, lets forget 24hz for a minute.

We in the UK still have the 60hz to 50hz issue. For my normal viewing I will have it set to 1080p/50hz as my SkyHD, HDD Recorder and Pal DVDs output at 50hz. But it will be annoying when I get juddering if I put on an NTSC DVD (60hz) and the output is still locked to 50hz.

I had an old Quadscan back 8 years ago. You just set the Res i.e. 720p and it then output 50hz for Pal and 60hz for NTSC, the input freq was the output freq. I don't think it's that much to ask, but if it is set then I hope the Edges 60hz to 50hz conversion will be good.

I think an entry level product should be pretty much plug'n'play for most typical systems, leaving advanced configurations to the more expensive VPs.

As long as it outputs an assigned output format depending on what is being input, then it's doing the plug'n'play element.

Otto

Even my VP50Pro did not automatically switch. I had to set up profiles for each resolution and set for auto to achieve this.

I would like this as well but I think you will not get the answer you are hoping for.

I don't understand this. As I said before, I do this all the time and have never used display profiles to do it. The only thing I've ever used display profiles for is;

1. catering for xbox360 60 Hz input for games (output should be 60) and HD DVDs (output should be multiple of 24)

2. catering for R1 DVDs with video content (output should be 60) or film content (outut should be multiple of 24) - I still do this from time to time but rarely enough that I haven't recreated my display profile for 60 in 60 out since the last firmware update.


In other words; both content based decisions where the input signal does not change. For situations where the input signal does change (DVD player changing from 480i/60 to 576i/50) - the vp50 just uses whatever output format was last chosen when that combination of input/res/freq was active, even if you've never saved a single display profile.

I think you've been using profiles when you didn't need to.

What if I do not have a display that accepts 24Hz or 50Hz? Should I ask for a cheaper version of the Edge without that processing?
This is like me saying, well I don't have any equipment that needs an analogue connection (mine ared all HDMI) so can I have a cheaper version that doesn't had analogue to digital processing for a lower price. It's not going to happen and it's not what we're saying or asking for. We're asking for clarification.

I think this is getting a bit silly and people are getting defensive for no real reason.

No one is saying "IT HAS TO HAVE THIS OR ELSE". We in the UK have this 50hz/60hz issue and want to know if it will be an issue or not for us. That's all. We are voicing our conserns about what "maybe" a missing feature that to us would be a big plus. We are explaining what the issue is to help the question be answered.

Sorry if this comes across as complaining to those it doesn't effect.

Why not?

Quite simply because the price of multiple versions would not be $799US anymore. The only way it could happen is the anticipation of sufficient demand to justify producing it.

Choddo

Yes it did remember the last output but that created problems for me. However this is for another thread

This is like me saying, well I don't have any equipment that needs an analogue connection (mine ared all HDMI) so can I have a cheaper version that doesn't had analogue to digital processing for a lower price. It's not going to happen and it's not what we're saying or asking for. We're asking for clarification.

I think this is getting a bit silly and people are getting defensive for no real reason.

No one is saying "IT HAS TO HAVE THIS OR ELSE". We in the UK have this 50hz/60hz issue and want to know if it will be an issue or not for us. That's all. We are voicing our conserns about what "maybe" a missing feature that to us would be a big plus. We are explaining what the issue is to help the question be answered.

Sorry if this comes across as complaining to those it doesn't effect.

Well if it can be implemented one way or another I hope you guys get it.

Choddo

Yes it did remember the last output but that created problems for me. However this is for another thread

Agreed. ok, so the clarification question remains; does the EDGE remember the output it last used for that input freq? :) I reckon Josh has strongly suggested not.

Agreed. ok, so the clarification question remains; does the EDGE remember the output it last used for that input freq? :) I reckon Josh has strongly suggested not.
I agree it's been strongly "suggested" but it would be good for Josh to answer the question directly.

If the Edge is locked to a specific output freq, my follow up questions are...

What is the Edge like at converting other freqs to that output freq?
If output is set to 1080p/50 and I input 1080p/60, 1080p/24 or 480i/60 will the picture output be OK, or judder?

I'm assuming these things will have been tested in Alpha testing and so be known.

Well if it can be implemented one way or another I hope you guys get it.
Thanks I hope so too.

I think we've clarified what the questions are that need answering definitively.

1) Will the Edge automatically switch output format depending on which physical input is selected? i.e. Can one specify an output format on a per-input memory basis?

e.g. 576p DVD on input 1, 1080p24 Blu-Ray on input 2.


No.

2) Will the Edge automatically switch output format depending on which format is detected on the same physical input? i.e. Are there separate input memories for different input formats on the same physical input?

e.g. 576p50, 1080p24 from a PS3.

No.

Well since I will be outputting 1080p60 for everything except Blu-Ray it sounds like I will just have to change the output format to 1080p24 when I watch a Blu-Ray movie. Hopefully I can figure out some way to get my Harmony 880 to do this for me when I select that input but for the price of this thing you can't really complain. Just to clarify, if I set the output to 1080p60 and my Blu-Ray player feeds it a 1080p24 signal the edge will be applying 3:2 pulldown and outputting 1080p60 unless I change the output format to 1080p24?

Thanks Josh

OK so that's been clarified. Thanks Josh.

As above my question is now:

If output is set to 1080p/50 and I input 1080p/60, 1080p/24 or 480i/60 will the picture output be OK? How will the Edge cope with the re-timing?

I confidently predict, in the words of Egon Spengler, "it would be bad"

......
I had an old Quadscan back 8 years ago. You just set the Res i.e. 720p and it then output 50hz for Pal and 60hz for NTSC, the input freq was the output freq. I don't think it's that much to ask, but if it is set then I hope the Edges 60hz to 50hz conversion will be good.
Well, if the Frame rate conversion is of the same ilk as the VP50 series, you won't be happy with it. I had a display for a while that could only do 60Hz at its native resolution. I live in PAL land too, so all my sources are 50Hz based.

I could do the FR conversion either in the VP50 or in the display. The bad news is that neither gave a very good conversion - lots of judder. As you say, and I have also said on a number of occassions, the US market has been conditioned to judder. And yes, there's really nothing special about 24Hz FR when you have been used to 50Hz FR all your life (2:2 pull down). What the US market is now seeing, and getting all exited about is what we have been seeing/experiencing all our lives :).

In the end I could not get used to the judder and I was luckily able to get the display taken back by the supplier (Samsung). I switched to a Sharp 46DX series that is able to do the 24/50/60Hz FRs at its 1080p native res and have been happy again ever since. The 100Hz feature in fact makes movement so smooth that I now find film based material at 25fps jittery :eek: - . You sure get used to improvements quickly and want it all the time!

In fact, I find this FR "doubling feature" in the latest displays so compelling that I would be happy to pay reasonable bucks to have a VP that has a really good performance in this field. There are still some issues with the current generation of displays/TVs - they don't keep up with rapid panning that well - and some introduce small additional artifacts as well, but improve on this and judder will be a thing of the past.

I don't understand this. As I said before, I do this all the time and have never used display profiles to do it. The only thing I've ever used display profiles for is;

1. catering for xbox360 60 Hz input for games (output should be 60) and HD DVDs (output should be multiple of 24)

2. catering for R1 DVDs with video content (output should be 60) or film content (outut should be multiple of 24) - I still do this from time to time but rarely enough that I haven't recreated my display profile for 60 in 60 out since the last firmware update.


In other words; both content based decisions where the input signal does not change. For situations where the input signal does change (DVD player changing from 480i/60 to 576i/50) - the vp50 just uses whatever output format was last chosen when that combination of input/res/freq was active, even if you've never saved a single display profile.

I think you've been using profiles when you didn't need to.
You wouldn't by any chance be using a PC resoltion would you? If you are, you're right, you don't need to set display profiles for different Frame Rates- I used 768 x 1280 for quite a while and as you say, you just set the FRs in the Frame Rate menu.

But, and I say again but, if you try to do that - setting the Frame rates in the Frame Rate menu when you select one of the 1080p resolutions - you'll find that you can't do that anymore. Don't forget, when you select a PC resolution, it is unbound to a Frame Rate. When you select one of the 1080 resolutions, it's tied to a Frame Rate - you can only select 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p50, 1080p60.

This is when I found out that you need to assign a display profile to the input signal. You need one profile per signal type. The VP50 will recognize both a change of resolution as well as Frame Rate, all on the same single physical input.

Now, this is what I put to Josh - will the EDGE be able to do the same? And, his answer was NO! If you go back a few pages (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14278440#post14278440), you'll see that I put this question/very scenario to him. You'll also see that I found that I needed to have the input signal active for every res and frame rate condition - otherwise I could not select the appropriate FRs. In contrast, when you select a PC resolution, you CAN set up all the FRs you like WITHOUT needing to have an input signal present.

Thanks Josh. My next question is that, given the feedback already posted, is this something that you will consider adding?

Also, do you have the international pricing yet?

You wouldn't by any chance be using a PC resoltion would you? If you are, you're right, you don't need to set display profiles for different Frame Rates- I used 768 x 1280 for quite a while and as you say, you just set the FRs in the Frame Rate menu.

But, and I say again but, if you try to do that - setting the Frame rates in the Frame Rate menu when you select one of the 1080p resolutions - you'll find that you can't do that anymore. Don't forget, when you select a PC resolution, it is unbound to a Frame Rate. When you select one of the 1080 resolutions, it's tied to a Frame Rate - you can only select 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p50, 1080p60.

This is when I found out that you need to assign a display profile to the input signal. You need one profile per signal type. The VP50 will recognize both a change of resolution as well as Frame Rate, all on the same single physical input.

Now, this is what I put to Josh - will the EDGE be able to do the same? And, his answer was NO! If you back a few pages, you'll see that I put this question/very scenario to him. You'll also see that I found that I needed to have the input signal active for every res and frame rate condition - otherwise I could not select the appropriate FRs. In contrast, when you select a PC resolution, you CAN set up all the FRs you like WITHOUT needing to have an input signal present.

Ahhh. Spot on. I am. Thanks for pointing that out.

(can't you choose 1920x1080 as a PC resolution? ;) )

I have also said on a number of occassions, the US market has been conditioned to judder. And yes, there's really nothing special about 24Hz FR when you have been used to 50Hz FR all your life (2:2 pull down). What the US market is now seeing, and getting all exited about is what we have been seeing/experiencing all our lives :).


On the other hand many of us are not all that excited about displays accepting 24fps frame rate whether it is conditioning or whatever. Most motion judder is inherent in the 24fps film camera and you are not getting rid of that with any amount of processing.

Ahhh. Spot on. I am. Thanks for pointing that out.

(can't you choose 1920x1080 as a PC resolution? ;) )
Ah, afraid not. I even tried to set up a User res by copying the display values (hor, vert, porches etc etc) from the one of the 1080p res settings, and although I could set it all up, once I tried to use it, it would not recognise the fact that I had tried to make it "frame rateless". Something is telling it that a 1080x res only has/can be attached to a single Frame Rate.

On the other hand many of us are not all that excited about displays accepting 24fps frame rate whether it is conditioning or whatever. Most motion judder is inherent in the 24fps film camera and you are not getting rid of that with any amount of processing.

On the other hand many of us are bothered by 60hz 3:2 motion judder. Film capture rate is less of an issue compared to the odd/even repeat that looks juddery compared to the nomal material here in Europe. :)

D

On the other hand many of us are not all that excited about displays accepting 24fps frame rate whether it is conditioning or whatever. Most motion judder is inherent in the 24fps film camera and you are not getting rid of that with any amount of processing.
Ah, only if you do that special kind of "Frame Rate doubling". I'm still tring to figure out exactly how it's done. It seems to be filling in the "gaps" between frames. I can clearly see that when I for example slow down the playback of a panned scene. The jumps from frame to frame are then the normal spacing. But, when you play it back at normal speed, it's much smoother, giving the effect (or illusion?) that extra interpolated/intermediate frames have been inserted.

If it's indeed a process of "filling in extra data", it has to be a pretty process hungry process - predicting which way the scene is moving and then generating the "in between" frame data/pixels. Something is certainly going on, because it sometimes gets it wrong and what should have been a smooth pan, turns into a rough one. I guess that if a pan includes pixels that are moving forward in the foreground of teh scene, but the background is moving in the opposite direction, it will add considerable confusion.

Sorry, way OT, but I find it a most interesting innovation - this so called "doubling of the frame rate".

The Edge has a very modern design.

Will a new VP50pro scaler come with this new type of design feature...that also has a rock solid internal power supply also?

So if I am reading this correctly, there is basically no functionality for automatic output format/rate adjustment based on which physical input is selected, or what type of signal is being received?

If you have to go into the menus to change the output rate for each input/signal type, I'm not sure the EDGE is going to be suitable for many people in Europe.


I've shuffled things about in my setup and intended usage would be something like:Input 1 — Either RGBs or YUV:576i video/film output at 50Hz
Input 2 — Component:480p video, output at 60Hz
Input 3 — HDMI:480p video (using PReP) output at 60Hz
480p film (using PReP) output at 24Hz
720p60 video at 60Hz
1080p24 film at 24Hz
1080p60 video at 60Hz
Input 4 — HDMI:1080p50 video output at 50Hz
1080p60 video output at 60Hz
1080p60 film output at 24Hz
I realise that it is a low cost device, but I had expected the EDGE to at least switch between 50/60Hz output depending on whether it was 50/60Hz in.

From looking at this image (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=115779&d=1216682620), there appears to be three blank buttons at the bottom of the remote.

Can these be set to adjust the output rate? Eg. have output resolution set in the menus to 1080p, and have them switch between 24, 50 and 60 Hz. It would be inconvenient (and still not ‘family friendly’) but workable.

Is there any chance of the EDGE having the ability to switch between 50/60Hz depending on the input signal added at all, or is that something that's not going to change?

So if I am reading this correctly, there is basically no functionality for automatic output format/rate adjustment based on which physical input is selected, or what type of signal is being received?

If you have to go into the menus to change the output rate for each input/signal type, I'm not sure the EDGE is going to be suitable for many people in Europe.


I've shuffled things about in my setup and intended usage would be something like:Input 1 — Either RGBs or YUV:576i video/film output at 50Hz
Input 2 — Component:480p video, output at 60Hz
Input 3 — HDMI:480p video (using PReP) output at 60Hz
480p film (using PReP) output at 24Hz
720p60 video at 60Hz
1080p24 film at 24Hz
1080p60 video at 60Hz
Input 4 — HDMI:1080p50 video output at 50Hz
1080p60 video output at 60Hz
1080p60 film output at 24Hz
I realise that it is a low cost device, but I had expected the EDGE to at least switch between 50/60Hz output depending on whether it was 50/60Hz in.

From looking at this image (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=115779&d=1216682620), there appears to be three blank buttons at the bottom of the remote.

Can these be set to adjust the output rate? Eg. have output resolution set in the menus to 1080p, and have them switch between 24, 50 and 60 Hz. It would be inconvenient (and still not ‘family friendly’) but workable.

Is there any chance of the EDGE having the ability to switch between 50/60Hz depending on the input signal added at all, or is that something that's not going to change?

Pretty sure this has been discussed before and the answer is no...you get one resolution framerate combination for all inputs. A macro or a few button pushes would be needed to change resolutions.

I'm not crazy about it either.

You wouldn't by any chance be using a PC resoltion would you? If you are, you're right, you don't need to set display profiles for different Frame Rates- I used 768 x 1280 for quite a while and as you say, you just set the FRs in the Frame Rate menu.

But, and I say again but, if you try to do that - setting the Frame rates in the Frame Rate menu when you select one of the 1080p resolutions - you'll find that you can't do that anymore. Don't forget, when you select a PC resolution, it is unbound to a Frame Rate. When you select one of the 1080 resolutions, it's tied to a Frame Rate - you can only select 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p50, 1080p60.

This is when I found out that you need to assign a display profile to the input signal. You need one profile per signal type. The VP50 will recognize both a change of resolution as well as Frame Rate, all on the same single physical input.

Now, this is what I put to Josh - will the EDGE be able to do the same? And, his answer was NO! If you go back a few pages (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14278440#post14278440), you'll see that I put this question/very scenario to him. You'll also see that I found that I needed to have the input signal active for every res and frame rate condition - otherwise I could not select the appropriate FRs. In contrast, when you select a PC resolution, you CAN set up all the FRs you like WITHOUT needing to have an input signal present.

I don't use display profiles with my VP50 pro. I don't have my user interface set on advanced so they aren't offered. I can set the output framerate depending on what is input and it works automatically for me. For 1080P24 it outputs 1080P24. For everything else I have it output 1080P60. And it switches automatically for me without using any profiles.

Pretty sure this has been discussed before and the answer is no...you get one resolution framerate combination for all inputs. A macro or a few button pushes would be needed to change resolutions.

I'm not crazy about it either.

As long as the remote can be programmed to change it it's not to bad for me since I only use 1080P24 and 1080P60 output. And I'll only be using 1080P24 output with BD, HD DVD, and from my VUDU.

Thanks Josh. My next question is that, given the feedback already posted, is this something that you will consider adding?

Also, do you have the international pricing yet?

Hmm what´s all of this "international pricing"? Obviously we will have to pay exactly the same as the rest of the beta-tester, no matter where we live - right

Dream on my friend from the north. Before we'll pay the equivalent of US$500 in Euro, hell will freeze over. $500 would be 320 EUR. And you want a guess from my side ? Double that. $1,000 to go... The german official pricing for the 50pro w/ HD-SDI card is something in the US$7,500 range.

The current Beta agreement states $500 with shipping paid for by the Beta tester. I'm not sure if different prices are being hammered out with international distributors, or whether the shipping (and tax) costs are being agreed.

Ah, only if you do that special kind of "Frame Rate doubling". I'm still tring to figure out exactly how it's done. It seems to be filling in the "gaps" between frames. I can clearly see that when I for example slow down the playback of a panned scene. The jumps from frame to frame are then the normal spacing. But, when you play it back at normal speed, it's much smoother, giving the effect (or illusion?) that extra interpolated/intermediate frames have been inserted.

If it's indeed a process of "filling in extra data", it has to be a pretty process hungry process - predicting which way the scene is moving and then generating the "in between" frame data/pixels. Something is certainly going on, because it sometimes gets it wrong and what should have been a smooth pan, turns into a rough one. I guess that if a pan includes pixels that are moving forward in the foreground of teh scene, but the background is moving in the opposite direction, it will add considerable confusion.

Sorry, way OT, but I find it a most interesting innovation - this so called "doubling of the frame rate".


It seems some process is necessary unless a way is found to change history re: the evolution of frame rates in film vs. TV. It does not change the fact that most motion judder is inherent in the 24fps film camera.

It seems some process is necessary unless a way is found to change history re: the evolution of frame rates in film vs. TV. It does not change the fact that most motion judder is inherent in the 24fps film camera.

Yeah but it's consistent judder and movies have long been carefully made to keep the 1/24s panning distance within a certain tolerance. That's very different from the nasty lurching you get with 3:2

We're way off topic now. I'll shut up.

I will disagree with both sentences and leave it at that too. ;)

The only poeple it "won't" effect are people is the US that only watch 60hz inputs. TV, NTSC DVDs, HD-DVD (60hz), Blu-Ray (60hz).

Anyone with either a 50hz (Pal DVD or Pal TV) or 24hz (HD-DVD or Blue-Ray) input device will have to change the output at some point. Or watch stuff at the wrong Hz.

why would HD sources be in the discussion at the first place? I thought we are getting a cool VP for SD sources only? and how come no Nintendo Wii on the list lol! PS3/XboX360 is nowhere near Wii although they are able to output in HD.....and wii only has 480p....and it's going to be the console that benefited the most from EDGE!!!!

why would HD sources be in the discussion at the first place? I thought we are getting a cool VP for SD sources only?
The Edge does a number of things for HD sources, like interlacing 1080i HDTV. So I think HD should definitly be in the discussion.
Also a lot of people have sources that output both SD and HD. HD-DVD players are used for SD dvd play back and HDTV as not all channels are HD. And these will be routed through the Edge.

Dream on my friend from the north. Before we'll pay the equivalent of US$500 in Euro, hell will freeze over. $500 would be 320 EUR. And you want a guess from my side ? Double that. $1,000 to go... The german official pricing for the 50pro w/ HD-SDI card is something in the US$7,500 range.

Absolutely not (I hope), it was - and still is - my clear understanding that the price are firm. The only thing which could differ is shipping.

The current Beta agreement states $500 with shipping paid for by the Beta tester. I'm not sure if different prices are being hammered out with international distributors, or whether the shipping (and tax) costs are being agreed.

Excatly - but let´s not get all ahead off ourselves at this early stage, let´s wait and see what we hear from Fracois.

Absolutely not (I hope), it was - and still is - my clear understanding that the price are firm. The only thing which could differ is shipping.



Excatly - but let´s not get all ahead off ourselves at this early stage, let´s wait and see what we hear from Fracois.
Agreed to or not, import duties are paid for by the end user - whether they are included with the unit as a single fee or billed separately. It has to be paid for somehow and is not DVDO's responsibility I would have thought. They may be trying to get these beta units imported as engineering samples in which case most countries could be letting them in duty/tax free. They would need to be invoiced at zero dollars for this to apply.

It seems some process is necessary unless a way is found to change history re: the evolution of frame rates in film vs. TV. It does not change the fact that most motion judder is inherent in the 24fps film camera.
Yes, but the whole discussion here is based on the fact that additional interpolated frames are added. So 24fps essentially/effectively becomes true 48fps if you create an additional interpolated frame between each of the 24 frames. You then get the smoothness of video at 50fps if you do what PAL countries do by slightly speeding up the 24fps to 25fps. For you guys in NTSC land, it's like looking at 60Hz video.

When this "doubling of the frame rate" occurs, it's like looking at our video sources at 50fps - really smooth. Of course, you can use the same principle to add frames at 50fps material.

Just to Clarify a few things:


The pro will not output a 1366X768 resolution. But will output a 720p resolution to a 1366X768 capable display?> as with the vp50pro?

Does the Edge have: Saturation / Contrast controls> as the Vp-50pro?

Does the Edge have any color managment features: Gamma settings?

Are the algorithms for 1080p de-interlacing and scaling be improved for better 1080p output?

has anyone else not received a tracking number yet?

Agreed to or not, import duties are paid for by the end user - whether they are included with the unit as a single fee or billed separately. It has to be paid for somehow and is not DVDO's responsibility I would have thought. They may be trying to get these beta units imported as engineering samples in which case most countries could be letting them in duty/tax free. They would need to be invoiced at zero dollars for this to apply.

Agree - surely there must be a work-around this. At the end of the day, the main focus must be achiving a win-win situation for DVDO and beta-testers, and ultimately the end consumer.

DVDO is getting very valuable feedback, and cleaned up the intial errors etc. The beta-tester puts in a lot of time and effort, and gets (hopefully) rewarded with a attractive price for the beta-EDGE. The end consumer gets a fully tested, competitive priced and easy to use scaler for the ones on a budget.

Anyway that would certainly be the scenario in a perfect world - let´s hope that´s the way it all turns out.

The pro will not output a 1366X768 resolution. But will output a 720p resolution to a 1366X768 capable display?> as with the vp50pro?

yes

Does the Edge have: Saturation / Contrast controls> as the Vp-50pro?

yes

Does the Edge have any color managment features: Gamma settings?

yes, but as far as I know, not gamma

Are the algorithms for 1080p de-interlacing and scaling be improved for better 1080p output?

dunno

I'll be receiving my beta box next week and am looking forward to hooking it up to my brand spankin' new TH-50PH11UK

So to sum up the last 10 days of lost posts... The EDGE will pass HD audio and we in PAL land would quite like automated output frequencies...

is that about it? :)

Crap ... what happened? Did all posts (in all threads) from the last 10 days get lost?

Crap ... what happened? Did all posts (in all threads) from the last 10 days get lost?

:( Are they recoverable?

Crap ... what happened? Did all posts (in all threads) from the last 10 days get lost?Yes, the forum had a catastrophic failure of their database and back up storage, and had to recover from around 6PM August 2th.

Sanjay

:( Are they recoverable?

They are history. Although I know the 1000+ threads I'm subcribed to should have many of the posts emailed to me.

Yes, the forum had a catastrophic failure of their database and back up storage, and had to recover from around 6PM August 2th.

Sanjay

ouch :(

still waiting for the beta testers

hey guys! I received an email from Jason C. Turk (jason@avscience.com) requesting my credit card number, expiry date and even the CCV number. Just wondering if it's "real" to represent DVDO.......

coz nobody would request such a complete credit card information over the internet......is it being hacked?

hey guys! I received an email from Jason C. Turk (jason@avscience.com) requesting my credit card number, expiry date and even the CCV number. Just wondering if it's "real" to represent DVDO.......

coz nobody would request such a complete credit card information over the internet......is it being hacked?

well, you could always pick up the phone and call jason...

still waiting for the beta testers

What are you waiting for? Beta testers have signed an NDA and will not be posting anything:confused:

well, you could always pick up the phone and call jason...

And it's a credit card, and if you are in the US, federal law limits your liability on CREDIT cards to $50 for unauthorized uses. That's why banks have such an itchy trigger finger on locking your account if they see anything suspicious: they don't want to be on the hook for thousands in unauthorized purchases.

I for one can't wait for Jason's e-mail so I can pay and actually be a BETA tester ASAP!

well, you could always pick up the phone and call jason...

I tried today morning, left a message, still waiting for callback...

I'll be receiving my beta box next week and am looking forward to hooking it up to my brand spankin' new TH-50PH11UK

PH still stands for 720p?

PAY to be a beta tester??? Seriously??? :confused:

PAY to be a beta tester??? Seriously??? :confused:

It's working for DVDO to get a reduced price on the product. When the beta testing is over, I do not think the agreement says you have to return it. It's yours, and I believe it will be supported.

SO with retail at $799, and beta price at $500, that's a $300 discount in exchange for some work that I cannot wait to start that I will not be discussing here pursuant to the NDA. :D

PAY to be a beta tester??? Seriously??? :confused:

Only if you are chosen.

PAY to be a beta tester??? Seriously??? :confused:

I have luckily been chosen to be a beta tester! My problem free Samsung BDP1400 that I paid $229 for will hopefully have video performance rivaling the $1999 Denon 3800BDCI. Not to mention the improvement coming from my Fios box to my Sony 60XBR2 which is 1080P/60. The Sony is a great TV but the Edge should improve on every weakness of the set( except for no Kuro black levels of course). My set has been calibrated by UMR so I really don't need all of the $3499 Vp50pro features, I just need the ones I will be getting for $500 in the Edge.

well, you could always pick up the phone and call jason...

I'm not located in the states. Passing COMPLETE credit card information via email is not advisable. I would prefer paypal or bank TT. Calling Jason doesn't give me any sign about authenticating him.

Nevertheless, I will try my best to give him a call soon.

do you have the right telephone number to contact him?

It's in his sigline...

Since we lost about a week worth of messages I'll repeat my request to Josh:
Josh, could you please have a look at my beta application. I have not received any reply yet. My forum name is on the application.

So to sum up the last 10 days of lost posts... The EDGE will pass HD audio and we in PAL land would quite like automated output frequencies...

is that about it? :)

This seems to be the most important thing !

The bad news comes from this post from Josh :

Output Formats on EDGE combine both resolution and framerate. For example: 1080p-60 is 1920 x 1080 @ 60Hz progressive. If you would like to change the Output Format between 1080p-60 and 1080p-24, you can do this by navigating the OSD or via discrete IR codes. Once a selection is made all input signals will be converted to the chosen Output Format.

I think its a design error of the product. It makes it not as plug and play as expected.

Many people in europe are watching DVD (output format need to be 1080p50 because of the 576i50 encoding) and HD (output format need to be 1080p24 or 1080p60). Do we need to take the edge remote and to navigate thru OSD each time we change between DVD and Blu-Ray ? :confused: :confused:

Richard.

See my sticky on the top of the forum about beta testers!! :)

Any questons, let me know.

Hi Jason, I just sent you an email. Do you guys take paypal as payment method?

What are you waiting for? Beta testers have signed an NDA and will not be posting anything:confused:
not postings but for it to be over. How long will it take to test this unit?

Josh

I am the owner of VP20+ABT102 combo, just installed it actually last week.
Having paid almost twice the price of EDGE for less than half of the features is quite sad news for me..

Any plans for upgrades? trade-ins?

thanks
Michael

Are you not able to return it for a refund?

This seems to be the most important thing !

The bad news comes from this post from Josh :



I think its a design error of the product. It makes it not as plug and play as expected.

Many people in europe are watching DVD (output format need to be 1080p50 because of the 576i50 encoding) and HD (output format need to be 1080p24 or 1080p60). Do we need to take the edge remote and to navigate thru OSD each time we change between DVD and Blu-Ray ? :confused: :confused:

Richard.

If the DVD is film-based, why would you have to? The EDGE can output 1080p/24 even from DVD or TV. Refer to 'Progressive Cadence Detection' in the OP for info.


What I'm confused about however, is what happens for video content (or games at 30/60fps), if you have the output set to 24Hz? It can't be sent out at 24fps, so I assume in that situation it switches to 1080p/60?

not postings but for it to be over. How long will it take to test this unit?

Well, a good start would be for all the beta testers to actually get their units first ;)

If the DVD is film-based, why would you have to? The EDGE can output 1080p/24 even from DVD or TV. Refer to 'Progressive Cadence Detection' in the OP for info.


European Film-based DVD are not 480i60 which can be converted to 1080p24 as yours, it is 576i50 which is the 24p Film with a pal speed up to make it "25p" and encode it in 50i. There is actually no way to reconstruct 24p original signal from that...


What I'm confused about however, is what happens for video content (or games at 30/60fps), if you have the output set to 24Hz? It can't be sent out at 24fps, so I assume in that situation it switches to 1080p/60?

It will be bad ;-)

It doesn't switch automatically to 1080p60. You'll have to do it manually using OSD or discrete code.

This is what I call a design mistake which makes the product not as plug and play as expected...

We just need a button to switch frequence of the current output format (with 1080p, the switch can be between 24/50/60 and with other formats it can just be between 50/60).

Richard.

European Film-based DVD are not 480i60 which can be converted to 1080p24 as yours, it is 576i50 which is the 24p Film with a pal speed up to make it "25p" and encode it in 50i. There is actually no way to reconstruct 24p original signal from that...


Oh sorry, I was referring to NTSC/ATSC (as I thought the post I was responding to was). I understand there are issues with PAL.


It will be bad ;-)

It doesn't switch automatically to 1080p60. You'll have to do it manually using OSD or discrete code.

This is what I call a design mistake which makes the product not as plug and play as expected...

We just need a button to switch frequence of the current output format (with 1080p, the switch can be between 24/50/60 and with other formats it can just be between 50/60).

Richard.

Has that been confirmed though? I understand if you are playing a (NTSC) movie, it is up to you to manually select 60 or 24Hz output. However, that does not imply it won't (oops, double negative) automatically switch if the selected output configuration is incompatible with the source?

Oh sorry, I was referring to NTSC/ATSC (as I thought the post I was responding to was). I understand there are issues with PAL.



Has that been confirmed though? I understand if you are playing a (NTSC) movie, it is up to you to manually select 60 or 24Hz output. However, that does not imply it won't (oops, double negative) automatically switch if the selected output configuration is incompatible with the source?


The only information we have from Josh is that :


Output Formats on EDGE combine both resolution and framerate. For example: 1080p-60 is 1920 x 1080 @ 60Hz progressive. If you would like to change the Output Format between 1080p-60 and 1080p-24, you can do this by navigating the OSD or via discrete IR codes. Once a selection is made all input signals will be converted to the chosen Output Format.


And that :


I think we've clarified what the questions are that need answering definitively.

1) Will the Edge automatically switch output format depending on which physical input is selected? i.e. Can one specify an output format on a per-input memory basis?

e.g. 576p DVD on input 1, 1080p24 Blu-Ray on input 2.



No


2) Will the Edge automatically switch output format depending on which format is detected on the same physical input? i.e. Are there separate input memories for different input formats on the same physical input?

e.g. 576p50, 1080p24 from a PS3.



No


So I understand here that there is no automatic switch and one output format only for all inputs.

Richard.

Are you not able to return it for a refund?

I actually bought VP20 few months ago, but never installed it.. We were supposed to move into a new house quite some time ago, but sadly it happened just last week. That's when I actually unpacked and installed the processor, realizing that I need to clean my HD picture (and not just SD) from mosquito noise.

And on the same day, I realized that there will be a new model, with all these features at half the price, and also got a response from DVDO that VP20 is discontinued and will NOT receive any updates (I specifically need more 1080p processing and this noise removal of 1080i signal)

Not sure that anybody will refund me.

josh@dvdo

any power consumption estimates?

thanks
Jeff

So I understand here that there is no automatic switch and one output format only for all inputs.

Richard.

You got it. I'm starting the Future Edge Owners are No Dummies Thread shortly. :D

The only information we have from Josh is that :



And that :



So I understand here that there is no automatic switch and one output format only for all inputs.

Richard.

That actually doesn't answer the issue though. None of those questions directly brought up what happens if you have 24fps selected, and the input frequency isn't compatible with it (to my knowledge, 30/60 isn't compatible, unless it just drops frames).

sheesh - guess I'll have to give up my official videophile card and secret decoder ring....I've been feeding 1080p/24 from my PS3 to my VP50 ever since Sony enabled that feature; and while sometimes I'll switch the output to my pj to 72hz, lots of times I'll just be lazy and leave it at 60. The VP50 handles it well (however they do it) - so I'd be highly surprised if the nextgen (kinda) Edge couldn't do it as well.

sheesh - guess I'll have to give up my official videophile card and secret decoder ring....I've been feeding 1080p/24 from my PS3 to my VP50 ever since Sony enabled that feature; and while sometimes I'll switch the output to my pj to 72hz, lots of times I'll just be lazy and leave it at 60. The VP50 handles it well (however they do it) - so I'd be highly surprised if the nextgen (kinda) Edge couldn't do it as well.

There's a difference between converting 24 to 60Hz, versus converting 30/60 to 24Hz.

The former would use telecine, I'm not sure how you would do the latter though, unless you drop frames.




I'm fine if you have to manually switch it anyway, but I'm curious what happens in this event - from a processing standpoint. Does it actually drop frames?

So even if my plasma is a real multistandard/format beast - PF10UK - I still have to tell EDGE what to output, every time the source changes...?

So even if my plasma is a real multistandard/format beast - PF10UK - I still have to tell EDGE what to output, every time the source changes...?

Knowing that the EDGE will do the best deinterlacing and scaling set your source devices to output their native content rate such as 1080p 24 for Blu-ray movies and 1080i or 720p for HDTV, 480i for standard definition and let the EDGE scale and deinterlace based upon your display's native resolution.

You see, these fellows are worked up over telecine judder even though most judder is motion judder inherent in the 24fps film camera.

So even if my plasma is a real multistandard/format beast - PF10UK - I still have to tell EDGE what to output, every time the source changes...?

Yes, however, you can set the output to Auto, which will output the timing as dictated by the display. Until someone can test the Panny Commercial PF Series Panels there is no guarantee your display will report the timing that gives you 1:1.

I'd like it if the Edge could output different frame rates based on the input that is currently being used.

For instance, say you're using one HDMI input for Blu-ray and another for HDTV, it'd be nice if the Edge would auto-detect the input (which it does), but then apply the deinterlacing and output mode of the user's choice. For instance, for Blu-ray I'd like 1080p24, but for my cable HDTV service, I'd like 1080p60.

I'd like it if the Edge could output different frame rates based on the input that is currently being used.

For instance, say you're using one HDMI input for Blu-ray and another for HDTV, it'd be nice if the Edge would auto-detect the input (which it does), but then apply the deinterlacing and output mode of the user's choice. For instance, for Blu-ray I'd like 1080p24, but for my cable HDTV service, I'd like 1080p60.

Then you would require your display to do the scaling and deinterlacing.

Then you would require your display to do the scaling and deinterlacing.

:confused: No it wouldn't.

I believe he's saying he'd like it to always output 1080p, but automatically switch between 24 and 60Hz, depending on the source material (film versus video/game/PC rates).


I don't see it happening at this price however. It can't be all things to all people. I'd certainly welcome it, but I'm not complaining.