A friend of mine can get either of these pj's for about the same money. Which is better and why?

Thanks, I am very familiar with the HT5000 (I have one) but know nothing about Runco's at all.

A friend of mine can get either of these pj's for about the same money. Which is better and why?

Thanks, I am very familiar with the HT5000 (I have one) but no nothing about Runco's at all.

Just looking at the specs the VC22d has more light output,50% lower sequential contrast. I'm not sure about the HDMI inputs since it looks like the processor takes are of that.
I've never seen that Runco however.


Art

What OEM is the basis for the 22? The 44 is a Christie HD6K, in the same pricerange as the HT5000. The new HDxK-M series replaces xenon with other features such as programmable zoom. It all depends on the price your friend can get on the Sim2, how the competition stacks up.

Well of course we know SIM doesn't actually make the HT 5000 either. When is your friend looking to buy /

Art

You may want to search the forums. There was a recent thread on Runco VX22 v Sim2 a couple of months ago about this 22 unit and I believe the up-shot was that even the C3X 1080 may actually be superior for a lot less coin... I would speculate wildly that the HT 5000 would crush it.

Well of course we know SIM doesn't actually make the HT 5000 either. When is your friend looking to buy /

Art

Who's the OEM/ODM?

Interesting, it was my understanding that the 5000 wasn't even actually built by SIM (ala Runco) at all but their other projectors were.If that isn't the case there are many many misinformed guys around repeating the same misinformation (including me).

Art

Interesting, it was my understanding that the 5000 wasn't even actually built by SIM (ala Runco) at all but their other projectors were.If that isn't the case there are many many misinformed guys around repeating the same misinformation (including me).

Art

Maybe its me who's misinformed. I've actually never asked

I assume you're talking about outsourcing the assembly.

The point I was making was that its not another companies machine.

Sim2 is now sourcing a single chipper from Benq.

Of course in the CRT days the company (Seleco) both supplied projectors to others (Vidikron among others), as well as resold other folks machines.

We are talking the HT5000 here. The input board which is the control, scaling, yada heart of the machine,is designed by Sim2. The HT5000machine is sourced from Delta. the lenses for the HT5000, I don't remember but the settings of the non user adjustable internal stops to improve contrast are specified by Sim2.

Well semantics is coming in. I guess SIM builds it is different for their different units. I had heard from several different people that they did not build this unit. Even if they are simply assembling parts they sourced and speced I'd say they built it.

Art

I can't speak for Sim, but can for the Runco Vx22d.

I bought the V2cx with the Mckinley anamorphic lens a few months ago. It was a 720p PJ but I got a great price on it. I was not happy with it. Funny thing is that my brother has the same machine and the picture was really good. I complained to the dealer and he got Runco to take it back and I got the 22d with same anamorphic lens (of course had to pay the difference). I went into this thinking I was not going to be happy. One reason was because of my previous experience and the other was because I never see great things written about Runco on this forum.

By the way, I heard this was a Christie chassis but I do not know it for fact.

All I can say is that I am so impressed with this projector. It has surpassed my expectations. By the way, I had Adam Pelz who works with Dennis Erskine come up to calibrate this (as well as the audio portion of my HT) and he did a wonderful job.

Ken

No Art. Its a fine machine and worth the money, but unlike the other machines Sim2 sells(excluding the new D60), they do not build the HT5000. Delta builds it using the Sim2 design for the input board. The machine comes in finished with the lens mount. The lenses are not part of the Delta build. The lenses used are the same as used by other manufacturers selling an HT5000 type machine built by Delta. When the lenses are ordered from the OEM lens supplier there are fixed stop (iris) options which can be specified by the manufacturer orderer. The trade off is brightness vs contrast, that's why other manufacturers might get more brightness from their rebranded Delta machine but less contrast or better black levels. Of course the othermanufacturer machines don't have the Sim2 designed input/control/scaling board yada or the Sim2 software features. The other machines by Sim2 are built on a Beeing type assembly line. In those cases, the case is part of the chassis. I don't know the nitty gritty of the D60 build, but I imagine it is a rebrand of a machine completely built by ane OEMer. Delta to my understanding does not sell HT5000 type machines to consumer end users so its a little different than rebranding another consumer manufacturerr machine that the manufacturer also sells to end user consumers. Ex lawyers such as I are indeed big on semantics because it is indeed usually important to relay information accurately. :)

Of course, Sim2 checks out the machines and sets them up, calibrates yada. Convergence is adjustable at the factory because the chips are moveable in the x/y directions and locked in place by screws. Plus Sim2 is a small company primarily specializing in projectors. This allows them to have great expertise and to provide knowledgeable support umlike some other companies having many many different types of products besides projectors.

http://www.delta.com.tw/product/vd/business/business_main.asp ?

None of those look anything like an HT5000.

None of those look anything like an HT5000.

There is a page called "High Performance Projectors" that has no products listed, just a "For more details, please contact us" link. Perhaps that is for OEM customers.

No Art. Its a fine machine and worth the money,but unlike the other machines sim2 sells, they do not build the HT5000. Delta builds it using the Sim2 design for the input board. The machine comes in finishedwith the lens mount. the lenses are not part of the Delta build. the lenses used are the same as other similar machines sold by other manufacturers. but when the lenses are ordered from the OEM lens supplier there are fixed stop 9iris) options which can be specified by the manufacturer orderer. The trade off is brightness vs contrast, that's why other manufacturers might get more brightness from their rebranded Delta machine but less contrast or better black levels. The other machines by Sim2 are built on a Being type assembly line. In those cases, the case is part of the chassis. I don't know the nitty gritty of the D60 build, but I imagine it is a rebrand of a machine completely built by the OEMer. Delta tomy understanding does not sell to end users soits a little different than rebranding another consumer manufacturerr machine that the manufacturer also sells to end user consumers. Ex lawyers such as I are indeed big on semantics because it is indeed usually important to relay information accurately. :)

Of course, Sim2 checks out the machines and sets them up, calibrates yada. Plus Sim2 is a small company primarily specialising in projectors. This allows them tohave great expertise and to provide knowledgeable support umlike some other companies having many many different types of products.

Thanks Mark. This seems more consistant to what I'd been told before.

Art

Ken6217...I Saw a VX-22D on a 148" 2.35 screen with HDTV, Blu Ray and Regular DVD recently and was expecting a *slightly* better picture than the VX-2 I saw in a showroom on a smaller screen with similiar material. I cannot believe how right you are. The 22-D is in another league, stadium, or whatever you want to call it. Recently, I got to compare a HT380 and RS1100. Both very good machines, but different picture quality that I could understand would vary by taste. But the 22-D, I would care less if you told me that it was made by Ron Popeil and he shoved a toaster inside the Runco case - I would still get it after seeing what it did.

My screen is 106 wide and the image is amazing. Even after ISF and having the PJ set to "night mode", it is very bright.
Ken

You may want to search the forums. There was a recent thread on Runco VX22 v Sim2 a couple of months ago about this 22 unit and I believe the up-shot was that even the C3X 1080 may actually be superior for a lot less coin... I would speculate wildly that the HT 5000 would crush it.

Thats exactly what happened. Last month, amongst a number of others the VX22d, C3X1080 and HT5000 were tested on the same screen.


The C3X1080 was better in terms of sharpness, more than double the CR, higher ANSI and better colorimetry.The difference was readily visible.

Native VP, especially scaling (both in quality and awesome AR flexibility and memories), was significantly better. The full CMS is also another advantage.

The HT5000 is a significant improvement on the C3. The HT5000 is also in a different class in terms of connectivity to the Runco.

For the moment at least, the HT5000 is peerless at its price point. The HT5000 was also brighter, the Runco produced just over 1200 D65 lumens, the HT5000 was over 1700.

Ken, 106" Wide! Jeez, can you watch it in a daylit room!!! The 148" was amazingly bright and totally watchable with exposed lights on full in the room. Dimmed the light some and it was astonishing.

On a side note, I have seen the C3X. It is a very good projector for it's price, but I did not have the same memorable experience as the 22D. Crush the VX-22D? IMO, based upon actually seeing both on different occassions - No way. But to each his/her own.

Ken, 106" Wide! Jeez, can you watch it in a daylit room!!! The 148" was amazingly bright and totally watchable with exposed lights on full in the room. Dimmed the light some and it was astonishing.

On a side note, I have seen the C3X. It is a very good projector for it's price, but I did not have the same memorable experience as the 22D. Crush the VX-22D? IMO, based upon actually seeing both on different occasions - No way. But to each his/her own.

My own direct, in home and extensive viewing experience was with the machines viewed at the same time on the same screen. Very different to your own subjective guessing. Video memory is utterly unreliable.

Without viewing in this manner, fully calibrated, brightness normalized with exactly the same source and able to switch instantly, there is no validity whatsoever to any comparison you feel you have made. All you can state is that you saw 2 presentations at different times, you have no idea or facts as to why one was better. You actually cannot state that one was actually better at all, as the conditions and timings were totally different.

No one said the C3X1080 crushes the VX, but it is demonstrably and significantly superior. The numbers (ANSI, CR, etc), obtained from the best available equipment, support this too. CR alone is double the Runco.

The HT5000 is better again.

To answer the OP, the HT5000 is simply a superior machine. If it can be had for the same price as the Runco, its a total no brainer, for the reasons listed in both my posts. If you need some basic numbers let me know and I'll try dig them out.

Hope this helps.

OK, so Sim outsources the manufacturing of the HT5000. Apple isn't building the iPhones in Cupertino CA either. There is quite a big difference between outsourcing and rebadging (neither of which I am saying either is "bad" or "wrong:). Rebadging is being done by manufacturers for instance, who are using the JVC RS2 and putting it in a different chassis (and of course claiming they are "optimizing it"). But based on my definition, Sim is very much "manufacturing" the HT5000, in the sense that a person cannot buy a projector virtually identical to the HT5000 from another manufacturer.

Coldmachine,

I'm not denying your information and experience and I do not mean to offend the time you have spent testing and comparing. I don't have the ability to measure and test in my own home. I can simply tell you that my experience left me with a subjective experience that was great and the most memorable home projection experience I have been able to view. It allowed me to form my own opinion that the VX-22D is a fantastic machine. Is it better than a HT500? Not sure...I wish I had the chance to see them both in a controlled environment as you have mentioned. Then, I could form my own opinion between the two. Cheers.

UK prices for these 3 machines are:

C3X $38000
HT5000 $57500
22d $86000

If the C3X is better than the 22d, and costs less than half....;)

Ken, 106" Wide! Jeez, can you watch it in a daylit room!!! The 148" was amazingly bright and totally watchable with exposed lights on full in the room. Dimmed the light some and it was astonishing.

On a side note, I have seen the C3X. It is a very good projector for it's price, but I did not have the same memorable experience as the 22D. Crush the VX-22D? IMO, based upon actually seeing both on different occassions - No way. But to each his/her own.

I saw both the VX22 and the C3X1080 on a 10' 2.35 Stewart screen. I would have to agree with Coldmachine, the Sim is better than the Runco in every catagory and the Runco was set up by the company's top installer and the Sim was set up by just us normal humans. The Sim won easily in my opinion. The Runco dealer also agreed. I had the chance to buy either for around the same price. I chose the Sim. No contest.

I saw both the VX22 and the C3X1080 on a 10' 2.35 Stewart screen. I would have to agree with Coldmachine, the Sim is better than the Runco in every catagory and the Runco was set up by the company's top installer and the Sim was set up by just us normal humans. The Sim won easily in my opinion. The Runco dealer also agreed. I had the chance to buy either for around the same price. I chose the Sim. No contest.

It's when people come out with a statement like " and the Runco was set up by the company's top installer and the Sim was set up by just us normal humans."
that you lose all credibility. My guess is that you do not have either machine.
Have fun living vicariously through the people that actually own any of these machines as well as playing make believe on AVS.
Ken

It's when people come out with a statement like " and the Runco was set up by the company's top installer and the Sim was set up by just us normal humans."
that you lose all credibility. My guess is that you do not have either machine.
Have fun living vicariously through the people that actually own any of these machines as well as playing make believe on AVS.
Ken

I dont wish to speak for Jeff, but I think you'll find his credibility and bona fides are well established here.

Arranging an audition of that nature is actually fairly common in the high end segment of the market.

Your rudeness is both misplaced and unwarranted.

I do, however, understand the origin of your sensitivity.

My guess is that you do not have either machine.
Have fun living vicariously through the people that actually own any of these machines as well as playing make believe on AVS.
Ken

I didn't see where he said he had either machine but was commenting simply on what he saw.

In any event ,your response seems a bit harsh to me.

Art

This is the big boy forum. a lot of bight people, well educated the norm, and mostas top professionals in their fields.Big ego. Some own. some Observe. The idea is to tell what you think, what you know, what you observe. Egoes and semantics sometimes cause flareups but the majority behave and many of us are friends too meeting in person from time to time. People who have observed A to B and discuss possible set updifferences between two machines and post their observations are quite welcome. IMNSHO. :)

I dont wish to speak for Jeff, but I think you'll find his credibility and bona fides are well established here.

Arranging an audition of that nature is actually fairly common in the high end segment of the market.

Your rudeness is both misplaced and unwarranted.

I do, however, understand the origin of your sensitivity.

I am not sensitive. I could have has either PJ and made the decision that I did and am happy with it. I was more curious about the company's "top installer". Who was he?

How was I rude? Because I didn't believe his statement? I think you are the one that is sensitive. If you want take to really take a look at rude statements, you don't have to look too far. They can be seen in many of the posts in this forum. My differing opinion was not of a rude nature.
Ken

as Runco is right across the bay, getting a top installer from the company is not difficult. And as he commented that the installer felt that the SIM looked better, it would in poor form to mention names. Jeff also did say that he bought the sim.

As far as his credentials, i have not had the pleasure of experiencing his room, but have heard from others whose rooms i have heard that it is absolutely top notch with Wilson Maxx2's and other high end gear.

As far as his credentials, i have not had the pleasure of experiencing his room, but have heard from others whose rooms i have heard that it is absolutely top notch with Wilson Maxx2's and other high end gear.
I have had that pleasure, and Jeff's room is indeed top notch. It is amongst the best I've ever experienced. And Jeff is one of the nicest, most humble people one ever will encounter.

My differing opinion was not of a rude nature.

I didnt, at any point, say your "differing opinion" was rude. It was you nasty and unwarranted comments that were rude.


I think you are the one that is sensitive.

Yes, Im of a delicate and sensitive nature.

Coldmachine is indeed a delicate flower. why, the tiniest slight can send him over the edge.

"Your rudeness is both misplaced and unwarranted. "

You need to help me out here. Please let me know the rude statement. By the way, am I entitled to have my own opinion on which PJ I like?

Also what does the rest of his system have to do with the a discussion on projectors? If you want to go there, I have ML Mono blocks, Meridian 800 and 861, Aerial 20T's and the related center, sides, surrounds, and 4 Aerial subs. The audio and video were calibrated by Dennis Erskine. This system is not shabby but is irrelevant to the Runco Sim discussion.
Ken

This reminds me of a story I heard....

Guy in sunglasses is noodling around on an electric keyboard in a well-known shop in Hollywood. Salesman walks up and asks, "can I help you?" Guy in Sunglasses asks brusquely, "yeah, how much is this?" Salesman says, "that costs $12,000." Guy raises his sunglasses and demands, "do you know who you're talking to -- I'm Steve Perry from Journey!" Salesman replies, "oh....I didn't recognize you in the sunglasses. In that case, it'll be $20,000."


















Probably never happened, but I'd like to think it did.

...you lose all credibility. My guess is that you do not have either machine. Have fun living vicariously through the people that actually own any of these machines as well as playing make believe on AVS.
Ken


I don't know. If someone were in the wrong mood, they might mistake this for a rude comment.


You know, like awake, or alert.

That kind of wrong mood.

OK Let's all vote. Ken6217 -Guilty as charged.

Now let's pardon him so we don't have to support him on forum dollars and move on. :)

Next time if he acts like that, we will banish him to the sub $3K forum. :) OK?

Let me jump in for a moment with my own observations and opinions. I have seen both projectors albeit not in the same room, at the same time, side by side. I have seen incredibly horrid pictures from both devices. By the same token, I have seen wonderful results from the HT5000 and stunning pictures from the VX-22D.

The variance I have seen from site to site has largely been directly related to the expertise of the individual doing the calibration (a function of experience, equipment, patience to get it right, and the anal factor). In the end, I can get a better picture from a VX22 than an HT5000 (marketing numbers notwithstanding). Now, having said that, an in all fairness, the VX22D comes with a very capable and flexible scaler. The HT5000 does not. Placing a very high quality scaler between the video sources and the HT5000 does make a big difference. Anytime I've seen a great picture from an HT5000, there's been a common difference between those with a so so picture and those with a great picture ... (1) a very good scaler and (2) a very good calibrator.

Given the Runco with it's included outboard processor and an HT5000 with a good third party outboard processor and an equally good (or the same) calibrator, the playing field becomes a bit more level...both in performance and cost. On the Runco side of the house, I do know their scaler has had several upgrades (via software) since the VX22D was released. That does make the cost/benefit ratio a bit more difficult to calculate.

In the end, they are both very good projection systems (when the HT5000 is coupled with a very good scaler). What you can extract from them depends on the talent of the calibrator and, perhaps, the ease and cost at which the scaler can be upgraded.

From my perspective, I prefer an ISO9001 product, with excellent performance and outstanding service.

OK, just my 2 cents and based only upon my own experience base with no intent of taking anything away from anyone who, for their own very good reasons, have made other choices (Sim or otherwise).

It's when people come out with a statement like " and the Runco was set up by the company's top installer and the Sim was set up by just us normal humans."
that you lose all credibility. My guess is that you do not have either machine.
Have fun living vicariously through the people that actually own any of these machines as well as playing make believe on AVS.
Ken

Well, you are free to believe or not to believe whatever you choose. I was just stating my own expirence. I have no loyality to either manufacture. It actually would have been easier to buy the Runco but I much prefered the Sim. The installer for Runco was not present when we set up the Sim. He had been there the day before calibrating the RuncoVX22. It was the Runco dealer and all of the employees that prefered the Sim2C3X1080 along with myself.
Now, if you think I'm like a Sim groupie you'd be mistaken. I had to go through 3 projectors until I finally received one that worked. At every communication with Sim they seemed to avoid taking any responsibility for their product. It was always the BD player or the hdmi cables or I didn't have the latest software, on and on and on. It could never be their projector. They did fix everything in the end and it does produce one excellent picture.

BTW Ken6217 you are entitled to your own opinion but at the same time I should be entitled to mine. To accuse me of not have either machine and
having fun living vicariously through the people that actually own any of these machines as well as playing make believe on AVS is a rude comment.
You don't even know me.
In my opinion this is where you lose your credibility.

Thanks to the people that had kind words about me. That was very nice of you.

the VX22D comes with a very capable and flexible scaler. The HT5000 does not.

Does everyone agree with this?

Does everyone agree with this?

No they dont, as you are fully aware. Its ill informed to say the least.

Placing a very high quality scaler between the video sources and the HT5000 does make a big difference. Anytime I've seen a great picture from an HT5000, there's been a common difference between those with a so so picture and those with a great picture ... (1) a very good scaler

The fact that the post states that a high quality scaler makes a big difference to the image of an HT5000 is sufficient for anyone who knows the machine to know that the post is way off base.

This specific point has been explored many times on AVS.

The simple fact remains that a C3X1080 demonstrably outperforms the Runco, let alone the HT5000.

The reasons people on this forum, almost universally, don't choose Runco are two fold...

1. This forum is very knowledgeable and well informed.

2. Runco PJs simply are not that great. There are significantly better machines available.

"
You need to help me out here. Please let me know the rude statement.


I think the following statement qualifies.

My guess is that you do not have either machine.
Have fun living vicariously through the people that actually own any of these machines as well as playing make believe on AVS.
Ken

That was unwarranted, and a simple awareness of the forum would have shown that to be factually incorrect.

By the way, am I entitled to have my own opinion on which PJ I like?

You are indeed, no one is questioning that right.

I have seen both projectors albeit not in the same room, at the same time, side by side.

That puts your observations squarely into the subjective category.


It seems the only 2 who have compared them in a direct and competitive manner are Jeff and myself. The conclusions, independently arrived at, are the same.


For those who are interested, I'll post some numbers and notes from all 3 when I get back home and can access them. Probably Tuesday.

Well, Cold, I'm not here to start a fight or a debate (and zero interest in participating in one), nor am I trying to change anyone's mind. My observations and comments are simply based on my own experience working with both. Classify my observations as subjective if you wish ... no I never took the Sim down and moved it to the other room for a side by side direct subjective comparison.

While your strong personal attacks against those who don't share your opinion, or experience base, are legend, I would suggest you tone those down. There are some very bright video engineers who do not share your opinion, some who do not share mine, and some who share neither. These professionals may question the approaches and solutions of others, they do not issue forth personal attacks nor attempt to characterize other peers as stupid ... I suppose that is why they are professionals.

There is a large body of very capable projection systems available (some promised new ones on the near horizon), each have their strong points; but no one projection system that will meet the needs and requirements of everyone. I do think we will see some exciting new developments this year and some interesting adaptations of technologies used in related fields introduced into the home environment.

BTW, I think Lumagen makes an outstanding piece and works nicely to improve upon the HT5000. I would surmise you did not believe this to be necessary for the Sim. In designing and building a scaler, Lumagen has the disadvantage in that they have to build a unit that will play nicely with anyone (and overcome any of the hurdle points associated with designing a unit that will work well with any projector).

Well, Cold, I'm not here to start a fight or a debate (and zero interest in participating in one), nor am I trying to change anyone's mind.

Neither am I.

Classify my observations as subjective if you wish

They are,by definition, subjective. I classified nothing.

While your strong personal attacks against those who don't share your opinion, or experience base, are legend, I would suggest you tone those down.

I made no personal attack on anyone in this thread. The only instance of that was by the simpleton who attacked Jeff, accusing him of lying, and who has failed to display the magnanimity to issue the retraction and apology that, as yet, remains outstanding. I see myself as no more a robust poster than many regular posters on here. Those I respect most on here have no issue with my posting style, those that do are perfectly at liberty to report any offending posts. I don't feel I do issue "strong personal attacks".We wouldn't even be having this conversation but for someone unilaterally deciding to start the trash talk. As for your suggestion that I modify my posting style, I wont address that in a public forum based on my inclination to restraint.

There are some very bright video engineers who do not share your opinion, some who do not share mine, and some who share neither.

I agree, and I am assured you are certainly one of them. There are also some who are agenda driven ego maniacs, who's mediocre achievements serve as no basis to justify some of the insipid preaching that spews forth from certain quarters

These professionals may question the approaches and solutions of others, they do not issue forth personal attacks nor attempt to characterize other peers as stupid ... I suppose that is why they are professionals.

Im at a loss as to what you mean there, or its relevance, as it pertains to myself. Perhaps you could enlighten me or expand on that, as I detect an accusatory undertone.

There is a large body of very capable projection systems available (some promised new ones on the near horizon), each have their strong points; but no one projection system that will meet the needs and requirements of everyone. I do think we will see some exciting new developments this year and some interesting adaptations of technologies used in related fields introduced into the home environment.

I also agree, and share your anticipation.

BTW, I think Lumagen makes an outstanding piece and works nicely to improve upon the HT5000. I would surmise you did not believe this to be necessary for the Sim.

Many HT5k owners have tried the Radiance and found it unnecessary and to actually detract from the PQ. This has been well reported here. Most don't use it or any alternative as the VP in the HT5k is so clean. A few do use it as it does offer facilities they benefit from. The in-house VP code, including the excellent and very flexible scaling, leave other PJs a long way behind. The core of this is also common across the range. I do, as do others, intend to revisit this piece if it ever sorts out the softening issue.

Two comments:

1. I apologize if anyone thought my comments were rude, even though I must admit you guys seem to have a very difficult time being on the receiving end, but have no problem dishing it out. I am not referring to this thread in particular, but many others. I had someone tell me that there was something wrong with my ears because I thought one cable was better than another, but I didn't go complaining about it. I am assuming that you are all over 6 years old. See, now that was a rude comment.

2. I hope LG doesn't become a sponsor or we will all have to read all of the posts how their PJ is better then everyone else's.
Ken

The HT 5000 has the highest sequestial contrast of any 3 chip DLP to date.I measured it here several different ways then posted the numbers. This is an average of 6050:1. I looked at the HT 5000 with a Radiance processor to determine if there would be any improvement in the image and there was not. The HT 5000 has great internal scaling.

I've not seen the panel alignment on the Runco ,since I've never seen the unit ,but I'd bet one of my nuts that the Runco isn't as good.This is particularly important to me since I watch a lot of old black and white films and fringing drives me crazy. This projector has no more than 1/4 pixel misalignment anywhere and at least 75% of the area is spot on.

lower right corner.....

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/CarlosMeat/Focus08b.jpg

Just my observations.

Art

i had a shout out in my cinema long time ago between a
my christie hd6k and the sim 5000.

beside the better on off cr. that the sim2 have the christie is the better
unit.
it have perfect colors thanks to the xenon lamp arround 2700:1 ansi and depends
on what lens you will use till to almost 700:1 ansi.
7000 lumen at d 65 you can dimm down to about 3500 with iris 9 and lamp dim from
1000 watt to 700.

i measure the sim 5000 at about 5000:1 on off and almost 2000 lumen.

the difference in on off cr.was there but as the christie have the better color
and many others things the sim can not do if i need to chose between it again i will
take without any thinking the christie.
but one disadvantage is there.
the noise level the christie have.

but now the christie hd 10m was there and that seams the unit to beat.

i had a shout out in my cinema long time ago between a
my christie hd6k and the sim 5000.

beside the better on off cr. that the sim2 have the christie is the better
unit.
it have perfect colors thanks to the xenon lamp arround 2700:1 ansi and depends
on what lens you will use till to almost 700:1 ansi.
7000 lumen at d 65 you can dimm down to about 3500 with iris 9 and lamp dim from
1000 watt to 700.

i measure the sim 5000 at about 5000:1 on off and almost 2000 lumen.

the difference in on off cr.was there but as the christie have the better color
and many others things the sim can not do if i need to chose between it again i will
take without any thinking the christie.
but one disadvantage is there.
the noise level the christie have.

but now the christie hd 10m was there and that seams the unit to beat.

Great to hear. Wolfgang are you looking at the new Christie with the dynamic iris ?

Art

Has anyone compared the Optics on the Sim and Runco?
Ken

Has anyone compared the Optics on the Sim and Runco?
Ken

Minolta makes the lenses for the HT 5000.

Art

Has anyone compared the Optics on the Sim and Runco?
Ken

The VX-22D I tested exhibited more CA than the 5k, but thats not always a true indication of the optics alone.

I've not seen the panel alignment on the Runco ,since I've never seen the unit ,but I'd bet one of my nuts that the Runco isn't as good.

It isn't, no need to fear castration just yet. I'll post details on Tuesday.

but now the christie hd 10m was there and that seams the unit to beat.

I think thats got a load of us drooling in anticipation.:)

Having spent some time with a DCI machine recently, I cant wait to see one with higher CR.

I've not seen the panel alignment on the Runco ,since I've never seen the unit ,but I'd bet one of my nuts that the Runco isn't as good.lower right corner.....

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/CarlosMeat/Focus08b.jpg

Just my observations.

Art


I wouldn't bet one of my nuts on even the surest of sures like the sun will come out tommorow

Lon.from what I've heard, Art has three nuts, so he could indeed spare one. Of course if that extra nut isn't really an extra nut but instead a small err, than he might not really have a spare nut to lose. ;0h Ggod. I am setting CM up for another post, he gets excited when somebody starts mentioning male nuts and things.

The only thing that CM is legend here about is his creative use of adjectives in making a point. he takes gear comparisons quite seriously. both in combining objective measurements with subjective viewing/listening. He seems to do this far more seriously than anybody here. and i would bet on that. (not a nut though... unlike art i only have two)

and to paraphrase an old joke:
In the end, he does not call a spade a spade... he calls it an F'ing shovel!

So to say that if you do not agree with his opinion, you will be ridiculed is silly. to say that if you differ with his experience after viewing both in instantaneous switching after full instrument based calibration and can provide no EVIDENCE to such and then call his experience just his opinion... that is a little silly.

Most people here use almost exclusively reading objective measurements and then a subjective viewing of "contenders" at different times. and in cases where we have models that are close, then this is just not good enough as our memory is just not powerful enough to be of assistance.

TO say that one found the two very similar and that in most cases, those similarities could be minimized via proper setup, or the addition of outboard gear, and that at the end of the day, the level of support and piece of mind you got from one company pushed it over the edge... that argument would be respected by all.

Great to hear. Wolfgang are you looking at the new Christie with the dynamic iris ?

Art

yes.

The only thing that CM is legend here about is his creative use of adjectives in making a point. he takes gear comparisons quite seriously. both in combining objective measurements with subjective viewing/listening. He seems to do this far more seriously than anybody here. and i would bet on that. (not a nut though... unlike art i only have two)

and to paraphrase an old joke:
In the end, he does not call a spade a spade... he calls it an F'ing shovel!

So to say that if you do not agree with his opinion, you will be ridiculed is silly. to say that if you differ with his experience after viewing both in instantaneous switching after full instrument based calibration and can provide no EVIDENCE to such and then call his experience just his opinion... that is a little silly.

Thank you for your kind and generous words.:)

So to say that if you do not agree with his opinion, you will be ridiculed is silly. to say that if you differ with his experience after viewing both in instantaneous switching after full instrument based calibration and can provide no EVIDENCE to such and then call his experience just his opinion... that is a little silly.
.

Not that silly....In our single days, we always told the brunette that the was the better **** than blonde when in her company (even though the brunette was special in her own way).....and vice versa. They're just words describing the 'experience' and just as subjective:D

Not that silly....In our single days, we always told the brunette that the was the better **** than blonde when in her company (even though the brunette was special in her own way).....and vice versa. They're just words describing the 'experience' and just as subjective:D

Is that a wine assisted analogy?:)

Then, again, the blond and the brunette could have been carefully calibrated, their hair dyed and the father of the blond picked the brunette as his favorite daughter (subjectively, of course). oops.

I give up. I don;t understand this blond and brunette analogy. When I was single, as I expect when CM was or perhaps is (explaing his wine confusion) , I had the blond and the brunette at the same time and I honestly told them there were ____ing fantastic and they both were.

Here comes Steve B.

Originally Posted by rsbeck
Does everyone agree with this?

No they dont, as you are fully aware. Its ill informed to say the least.
I take it you are taking the liberty of speaking for everyone or is "they" some much smaller group who have been informed by you and are therefore not "ill informed"? The fact that some do, and some don't, does not make one group, or the other, ill informed. Further, "informed" implies information provided by others, not by direct observation or measurement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine
Placing a very high quality scaler between the video sources and the HT5000 does make a big difference. Anytime I've seen a great picture from an HT5000, there's been a common difference between those with a so so picture and those with a great picture ... (1) a very good scaler

The fact that the post states that a high quality scaler makes a big difference to the image of an HT5000 is sufficient for anyone who knows the machine to know that the post is way off base.
Actually, I rather doubt you have polled everyone on planet earth "who knows" the machine (of course, if you define "who knows" as those who agree with you, then your statement would be correct). The opinion is certainly not universal as you would imply. Further, rushing to judgement without knowing what "high quality scaler" or scalers means in fact, is rather cheeky.

As to Mr. Dizzman's kind remarks on your behalf, understand that calling others "ill informed", misinformed, off base and the like, you are, in fact, assuming you know what information "they" may have, the source of that information, and potentially insulting someone based upon exactly the very same lack of information you have as you are blaming them to have.

I simply stated my opinion, based upon my own experience base. You clearly have another viewpoint. The fact that you do does not make you ill informed, misinformed, your posts off base. It simply means the opinions differ. I see no reason for you to be so defensive of your position.

Dennis. CM shouldn't have said what he said. You are entirely correct in your characterization of his post. We all know that (no poll to determine that, just wildly assuming a modicum of intelligence in all posting here :)). Let's move on.

Are you going to fly yourself to Cedia or are you going commercial?. AV gas is so expensive, I rarely fly anything other than commercial any more.

I'm with you...it's commercial this year. If I had five others going it might make sense; but, no such luck. I'm also finding FBO's are very proud of their ramps.

I give up. I don;t understand this blond and brunette analogy. When I was single, as I expect when CM was or perhaps is9explaing his wine confusion) , I had the blond and the brunette at the same time and I honestly told them there were ____ing fantastic and they both were.

My too subtle point was that beauty is in the eye of the beholder...and many beholders will prefer the blonde...(and many the brunette).

Oh hell, I'm going to bed.

the VX22D comes with a very capable and flexible scaler. The HT5000 does not.

So, are you saying this represents your opinion?

That the HT5000 does not come with a very capable and flexible scaler?

That it needs outboard video processing?

What went into the formation of this opinion?

My too subtle point was that beauty is in the eye of the beholder...and many beholders will prefer the blonde...(and many the brunette).

Oh hell, I'm going to bed.

- - - with the blond - - or the brunette?:D

So, are you saying this represents your opinion?

That the HT5000 does not come with a very capable and flexible scaler?

That it needs outboard video processing?

What went into the formation of this opinion?

- - - the blonde - - -

http://www.vinfolio.com/do/store/detail?vid=92237

Dennis,
For someone who stated they did not wish to start a fight, your reopening of this issue seems rather strange, especially as those posts were chronologically prior to your earlier reply. Its also additionally confusing ,as you're quoting rsbeck but replying to me.

I also stated that I do not like to start, or even be involved in fights, but you will find that I always answer the bell and rapidly become a willing and enthusiastic participant.

I take it you are taking the liberty of speaking for everyone or is "they" some much smaller group who have been informed by you and are therefore not "ill informed"?

If some one asks "does everyone", it simply takes a singular exception to justify the use of the statement "they do not". That use of "they" does not refer to any group I may be aware of, but actually refers to the negation of the group in the OP. This is very basic English comprehension.


Further, "informed" implies information provided by others, not by direct observation or measurement.

Again, we seem to have a language limitation. "informed" simply means being in receipt of information. It carries no caveat as to means or method of said receipt.

Actually, I rather doubt you have polled everyone on planet earth "who knows" the machine

With that comment we are now very squarely into the realms of the acutely infantile. I suppose i could rebut by claiming that "my dad is bigger than yours". What you will find is that the majority of owners who post here will most certainly validate my statement. In fact some already have.

Further, rushing to judgement without knowing what "high quality scaler" or scalers means in fact, is rather cheeky.

Please enlighten me. I await this earth shattering revelation with much anticipation.

As to Mr. Dizzman's kind remarks on your behalf

Dizz made no remarks on my behalf, they were entirely of his own volition. To act or speak on behalf of someone, or on someone's behalf, is to do so as their representative. That was, very clearly, not the case. I assume this to be simply a further example of poor diction rather than an accusation of collusion



I see no reason for you to be so defensive of your position.

I am not. I am merely rebutting certain points, as are you.

Dennis. CM shouldn't have said what he said. You are entirely correct in your characterization of his post. We all know that

OK Mark, lets hear it.

1. Please outline exactly what it is that I shouldn't have said, and exactly why I shouldn't have said it.

2. Please explain, what you perceive to be, the character of my post.

3. As for you statement that "we all know that". I not only call that into question, but again would seek clarification. Please explain on who's behalf, if anyone, you are acting as spokesman.

I'm actually at a loss as to your motivation as it relates to this post. The whole issue is no concern of yours. Quite what you are contributing to this is anyones guess

If you really feel an irresistible inclination to publicly fellate someone, please refrain from doing so at my expense.

what "high quality scaler" or scalers means

Please elaborate.

CM Dennis was giving his opinion. One in this instance that is not the same as mine

When you say that an opinion "is ill informed, to say the least", I think you have crossed the line with respect to Dennis. I wish not to enter into a battle of semantics here.


Ego? No,not you!. Why can't you just say, I didn't mean it that way. Why not say, I think you would be in the minority here,many have concluded or observed otherwise?

I posted because I could see through the read of Dennis' post that he was upset. It isn't worth getting upset over CM's post here in response to Dennis' first post, and all the flare ups that follow.

Its just CM being CM. Sort of like Manny being Manny on the Red Sox. I still want you on my AV team and as a friend.

You ask me to stay out, yet you take a fight public. Why didn't you just PM Dennis and insult himin private if you don't want someone to try and end this public bickering. We have to read it. I don't want to read it and I don't want my friend, Dennis, or you for that matter, to be upset.

I post this in public because I am not insulting anyway. I and I hope others just want this discussion to move on other than to endlessly discuss and defend so ill chosen words, to say the least. :) See the smilely?

I suggest that no one should further discuss this argument. I will not post on it any further and I suspect Dennis will let it go too.


Knowing CM as a forum friend, and to know him is to love him as a friend, he will undoubtedly have to have the last word insisting to the end he did nothing wrong and dissecting and trying to destroy mypost here. This whole thing is no big deal and a complete waste of time. Rather than read CM's next post, I'll just say in advance, WOW. What a supurb intellectual response. I didn't mean to offend you and reallyI didn't. You are just being yourself and I think most of us that's OK.

No, no no. Don't bother, I will not respond further here. :)

No,nono.Don't bother, I will not respond further here. :)

Now who here believes this?;)

It seemed to me there was a consensus around the belief that both the Sim2 C3X1080 and HT5000 have excellent processing, so much so that users who owned the Lumagen Radience were taking them out of the chain because it actually degraded the picture compared to the Sim2's processing.

Now, here's a phenomenon I've noticed on AVS; There are certain guys who've built up a lot of credibility over the years and Dennis seems to be one of those guys. But -- this is my opinion -- for whatever reason, anyone's train can run off the tracks.

IMO, each comment stands on its own and has to earn its own credibility, stand up to scrutiny, challenge, etc. If the comment has credibility, it doesn't matter who says it, if it doesn't stand up to challenge, likewise.

Now, Dennis has appeared to say that it isn't fair to compare these two projectors because the Runco has a very capable and flexible scaler and the Sim2 doesn't and that the Sim2 actually needs a piece of gear like the one the owners have actually removed from their system because it was found that the piece of gear actually degraded the picture.

Since this goes against what most of the owners have reported, it seems fair enough to me to challenge Dennis' comment, to question its basis, etc. Just on the face of it, it seems like he has made a mistake. If not, it seems like an explanation is in order.

Now, he seems to be qualifying his statement by saying you need to know what "high quality scaler means."

I don't know. To me, that seems a little weak and seems like a bit of "weaseling."

Maybe Dennis has a very logical and reasonable explanation, but I haven't seen it yet.

Some comments on the Radiance.

There was a bug which caused 1080->480->1080 processing, certainly causing softening in certain cases. This has been corrected.

The Lumagen scaling process involves some NR which can cause some softening. This can now be disabled.

There were some default cropping settings where a few pixels were first cut off before scaling to 1080p - something like 1913x1077. Could have affected things a little.

So certainly the Radiance is not necessary, but I think the softening problems have been corrected.

ditto. It is pretty transparent.

RS
You are correct that the basis behind opinions formed can, and in many cases, should be further examined. Indeed, for the benefit of all this would merit further dialog. Certainly one party of the other may have missed something, or failed to consider something else, or the basis of the opinion is not fully disclosed. However, these discussions should be civil, respectful of each party's perspective and reasoning. This was not a discussion. It was an attack and one not designed to drill down further and find answers or common ground but rather to discredit. Terms such as misinformed and ill informed in the context used are nothing more than an attempt to discredit the knowledge, experience, background (if not the very sources of the information) from some one who knows absolutely nothing about my background, sources of information, or experience base. Even the term "subjective" is frequently used to dismiss an opinion. I would value Steve Somers or Joe Kane's opinions subjective or not (no, I am not in either of those individuals league...simply an illustration). That really is the end of the discussion...largely because there wasn't one to begin with and there will not be one now.

King: This is Sir Lancelot from the Court of Camelot! He is a very brave and influential knight and my special guest today.

Wedding guest #1: He's killed my auntie!

King: Oh, let's not bicker and argue over who killed who. This is a wedding. This is supposed to be a happy occasion!

Are you KNIGHTS gonna kiss and make up. Or just make up, not out, would be fine!

I'd like to hear anyone who has seen an improvement in performance with the HT 5000 in processing using an external processor and what that is.

Art

Art, Ihave seen it using less than Bluray quality sources. It does wonders on lower def DTV sources and other type ur imputs of evil origin. It can clean such junk up. removing noise, softness. LG uses the Radiance on his HT5000 set up for such sources. I particularly like the contrast enhancement featue of the Gennum chip, set at +1 for many indoor sports such as basketball.

Mark is correct. Its been posted a few times that SDTV is improved, I've previously commented on this myself. Thats what I was referring to in post #48

Art, I have seen improvements using the Radiance and the Cine-IPM-2K. I wanted to play with the Spyder (not really for this type of application) to see what it could do.

I'm playing with "stuff" from Cyviz but no longer have the Sim available for experimentation.

Placing a very high quality scaler between the video sources and the HT5000 does make a big difference. Anytime I've seen a great picture from an HT5000, there's been a common difference between those with a so so picture and those with a great picture ... (1) a very good scaler and (2) a very good calibrator.

Just a reminder of the original claim, if one were needed. A VERY clear assertion that a so so image is all that can be achieved without external VP.

It is possible you have simply looked in the wrong places. Far be it for me to suggest where your head might have been at the time, so I wont.:D

Further, rushing to judgement without knowing what "high quality scaler" or scalers means in fact, is rather cheeky.

Not only do you clearly imply I don't know, but you have failed to explain to philistines like myself, what it actually means.

I believe I am not alone in seeking such enlightenment

Thanks. All I know is with HD there certainly was nothing that I saw which could be called an improvement. The internal processing of the 5000 seems to be quite solid.

Art

The term HD is not specific enough. 720p, 1080i, or 1080p. Film or video. Compressed o uncompessed?

I would agree with art re 1080p 24 from a Bluray. 720p and 1080i are subject to the vagrancies of scaling or deinterlacing. Obviously different VPs may do things different. Video deinterlacing is a big compromise and clear differences are evident between the Sim2 and using an external VP.

I think here we should be referring to 1080p 24 sources of film.

I have done A/B testing with 1080i, and 720P Directv HD sources and found a significant improvement to the picture with the Radiance in place vs direct to the HT5000.

For HD sports as Mark has written the contrast enhancement of the Radiance is pretty awesome

For 1080P24 Bluray/HD DVD sources I run direct to the HT5000

Off Topic for a minute, can someone in the +$20K Forum who is familiar with HTPC's recommend a Graphics card that could be considered videophile quality? The Nvidia 8500 GT currently in my Mediadeck 4 is less than stellar at encoding and deinterlacing 1080I60 BluRay discs.

For 1080P24 Bluray/HD DVD sources I run direct to the HT5000

This is actually all I looked at and found no improvement. With lower res sources what kind of improvement did you see specifically ?

Art

With Directv sources the improvement was less noise, cleaner looking picture

I would assume that for standard def dvd's (480i and 480p) that there would be an improvement as well with the Radiance?
Ken

I would assume that for standard def dvd's (480i and 480p) that there would be an improvement as well with the Radiance?
Ken

Yes... There is a myriad of enhancements and options for SD DVD / TV sources and is ultra configurable. I run an OPPO 980H @ 480i and get an excellent, scaled picture.

Deinterlacing 480i film is a lot easier than deintelacing 480i video. Both the Sim2 and the Radiance do this about the same. Scaling, I give a slight for lack of something betterr as a description there is a better firmness or solidness to the Radiance scaling here. This has all been discussed before elsewhere but not with specifically the HT5000. BUT isn't the scaling and deinterlacing the same in the HT5000 as in the other non D series Sim2s?

This has allbeen discussed before elsewhere but no with specifically the HT5000 BUT isn't the scaling and deinterlacing the same in the HT5000 as in the other non D series Sims?

I believe that is the case.

I would assume that for standard def dvd's (480i and 480p) that there would be an improvement as well with the Radiance?
Ken

If its a noisy DVD it will due to more comprehensive NR

If its a clean DVD the scaling and deinterlacing showed no difference.

I would consider the two devices I named in post 88 as being "high quality" within this context. There are others; but, again, I haven't used them with an HT5000. Those are the only two I've had on a Sim. By far the best video processing device I've ever seen was a CM2* ... not only not available any more but highly impractical (I suspect there are smaller, better, faster in use today).

*CM2 = Connection Machine

As promised, here are the very basic D65 numbers of the HT5000, C3X1080 and the VX-22D


VX-22D CR= 3200 Lumen= 1200 ANSI= 335

HT5000 CR= 6200 Lumen= 1800 ANSI= 740

C3X180 CR= 7200 Lumen= 1080 ANSI= 690


Another way to look at athose numbers is, using the VX as the datum:

HT5000 CR=193% Lumen=150% ANSI=220%

C3X1080 CR=225% Lumen=90% ANSI=206%


HT5000 was 80% perfect alignment with less than 1/4 pixel MC at edge. Best ever seen

C3X180 was 60% perfect alignment with 1/2 pixel MC at edge.( close-up screen shots posted recently)

VX-22D was 1/3 pixel MC in centre extending to a max of 3/4 at edge. On rhs this combined to near 1 pixel at edge


Hope this helps

Hi

I am far from this league when it comes to video. I'll move there soon, though. My question, on pure numbers it seems the HT 5000 and the CX1080 do a job on the Runco. What are the other subjective/measurable areas/parameters where the HT 5000 (or the CX1080) would be superior?
My money would be on the SIM based on what I have seen from their C3X (Lite?) which I believe (was?) is a 720p machine...

Hi

My question, on pure numbers it seems the HT 5000 and the CX1080 do a job on the Runco.

It was quite a shocking number too.

I left the 3 machines in alone in the room. When I came back the 1080 was bitch slapping the Runco from the front and the HT5k was at the rear, grunting and furiously administering a "Big Daddy But Slam". :)

It was a prison rape.

:eek:

It was a prison rape.

I blame society.

It was quite a shocking number too.

I left the 3 machines in alone in the room. When I came back the 1080 was bitch slapping the Runco from the front and the HT5k was at the rear, grunting and furiously administering a "Big Daddy But Slam". :)

It was a prison rape.

Frantz ,is that sufficiently subjective ?:D

Art

Do you suppose CM has first hand knowledge about prison rapes and bitch slapping? I certainly don't have such knowledge. I've made a career out of staying out or prisons. Just me though.

CM. Are you taking your err mood medicine like you are supposed to. I am drinking a Compari and Prosecco with a slice of orange and then I am going to smoke a stoggie. We are in the process of buying a barrel of Woodford and have room for a couple of 1/10 shares. Anyone interested.

Well this has been a fun ride :D .

- Jason

Do you suppose CM has first hand knowledge about prison rapes and bitch slapping? I certaibly don't have such knowledge. I/ve made a career out of staying out or prisons. Jjust me though.

Whilst that may be true, a dedicated Banjo virtuoso such as yourself should not be unfamiliar with the scenario.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w285/twistedsiblings/layouts2/animations/deliverance.gif


"He's got a real pretty mouth on him, don't he?"

"Ain't that the truth."

Bnajo virtuoso? i and I suspect most others are truly clueless on what you mean here.

Bnajo virtuoso? i and I suspect most others are truly clueless on what you mean here.

I think most people would actually get the Deliverance reference. I suspect you did too.:)

http://super-genius.org/images/deliverance.jpg

Nice to see you've got Bruzonsky looking on.:)

Frantz ,is that sufficiently subjective ?:D

Art

:D


Post such as the last one from CM) should be be XXX-rated...

Sounds like somebody needs to get back to work!

I really didn't get the Deliverence reference but now I get it. You really do need to find something constructive to do. Maybe non AVS community service.