If someone wanted a home movie theater and had $20,000 to spend, how good could the picture quality get?

What is the maximum size screen that a $20,000 projector could support, without deteriorating picture quality or brightness?

What are the biggest differences between a $6,000 projector and a $20,000 projector? Does a $20,000 projector require more work to set-up? Does a $20,000 projector use bulbs that are 4 times more expensive than a $6,000 projector?

Do members at AVS have large theater sized screens at home? The kind that commercial theaters use? Or do most AVS members have a 100" to 120" screen? Is 120" about the maximum size a screen can get before it loses brightness and picture quality?

If someone wanted a home movie theater and had $20,000 to spend, how good could the picture quality get?

What is the maximum size screen that a $20,000 projector could support, without deteriorating picture quality or brightness?

What are the biggest differences between a $6,000 projector and a $20,000 projector? Does a $20,000 projector require more work to set-up? Does a $20,000 projector use bulbs that are 4 times more expensive than a $6,000 projector?

Do members at AVS have large theater sized screens at home? The kind that commercial theaters use? Or do most AVS members have a 100" to 120" screen? Is 120" about the maximum size a screen can get before it loses brightness and picture quality?

Before answering all your questions, I think you'll first need to define what the budget of $20,000 includes. If that is just for the projector, then there may be some relatively straightforward differences between a $6,000 and a $20,000 projector. However, if that is the budget for the display (ignoring source components, processors, amps, cables, construction, speakers, furniture, seating, acoustic treatment, remotes etc. ....), then there is still a lot of other factors that need to be considered, probably the biggest one being the screen. Such as, do you want 16:9 or 2:35:1, do you want masking for a CIH system (and if so, do you need a processor and anamorphic lens) does the screen need to be acoustically transparent for speakers placed behind the screen, is the screen fixed frame or electric. The projector is certainly one of key ingredients of a home theater, but you need to pay attention to lots more than that.

Definitely need answers to those questions before we can help you. Video will not be a problem, however audio is a different can of tuna. Matching a pre-pro, amps and speakers could easily exceed your budget. Cables, interconnects, digital cables and HDMI connections. Lighting control? Software? Multi-room capability? We need more information about what you want from your system and what you already have.

Definitely need answers to those questions before we can help you. Video will not be a problem, however audio is a different can of tuna. Matching a pre-pro, amps and speakers could easily exceed your budget. Cables, interconnects, digital cables and HDMI connections. Lighting control? Software? Multi-room capability? We need more information about what you want from your system and what you already have.

I currently have a 50" Panasonic plasma.

Do I really need all those things you are mentioning like amps and software?

I was thinking of having a blu-ray player and an Onkyo reciever, and having speakers on the side of the screen.

How large of a screen can a high end projector make?

I want to understand what a $20,000 projector can do that a $6,000 projector can not do?

Audio is not important to me. Video is what I love.

lots.

Your Question is very vague. if you have only a desire to add a screen and a proj to the room, and have never had anything before... do you want a motorized proj to roll down over your plasma, do you want a fixed screen to replace your plasma.

Are you going to get a proj with an anamorphic lens and then get a scope aspect ratio screen, or keep it simple.

Are you going to go from a 50" plasma to 10' wide and not upgrade your sound?

If seems like there are a bunch of questions you need to learn answers to before other questions can be asked.



However to your previous, a 6K projector can be AWESOME... a 20 K can be better... or worse. depending on your needs.

THey can be
Brighter
Better colour
More Flexible inputs and connectivity
More contrast
better control for calibration and integrations
Quieter
Louder
Better cooling
Worse Cooling
More lens options
and so on...

if you want to go from a plasma to a room with a big screen, you need better light control, so you may need to put in drapes, possibly better light control new lighting, you will need different seating as the experience will be vastly different. You will likely want more sound gear, speakers, more powerful amp, etc. You need to mount the proj somewhere, so is it over your head, or in a closet behind you. How do you cool it?

GO visit magnolia hifi to start getting a clearer picture on what you want.


At the least, you will need a screen, figure out if it is mounted, or roll down. then room modifications to suit whatever you go with. projector and mounting. sound upgrade. better/different remote to wrangle all the stuff.

And a high end proj can make as big of a screen as you want.

Her is another forum member W. Mayer with a 100K (or so) proj
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_2538.jpg

Doogie,
Do you mean a PJ that lists for $20k or that you are willing to throw down $20K? There is currently a gap between the best single chip machines and LC based ones @ $15k and the least expensive 3 chippers at $32k. There are a couple of rip-offs in that dead zone. Thats quite a big gulf for there to be no real action in.

It also seems that you are unaware of the other things that go along with a good PJ, such as the audio, screen, anamorphic lens etc.You will be better advised if we could have an idea of total budget

You may be better served with a less expensive machine and a higher gain screen if you are simply only after a big image

System balance needs to be very seriously thought about

A balanced system for a typical $6k PJ can be done for around $13k. $6k PJ, $1.5k screen, $1.5k amp and $4k speakers. At this level the PJ is nearly 50% of a balanced system

Most C3X1080 based systems will run to over $100k in total, as the standard of equipment, in a balanced system, goes up as you're now into bigger rooms, bigger screens, treatments, furniture etc. Some C3 systems on here are many times that cost. Now the PJ is down to probably 30% of total

Go to bigger machines and the actual PJ cost becomes even less of a significant % . Its fairly normal for a $60K pj to be coupled with and audio system well over double that, thats not in any way extravagant either as thats just what it takes to fill a big room with fidelity at reference levels. Typical screens at that level are $25k. Id guess a typical HT5000 based system is at least $300k in total. Again many are way over that.

Regarding your question on screen size, there are plenty here who are well over 10ft.

Hope this helps. With further info you will get more specific advice or at least shown where to find it

Thanks for the replies.

I'm wondering how much it would cost to bring a commercial theater experience into the home, sans sound. Just the video. I'm not an audio guy, I get my kicks from a big bright screen. A $500 reciever would be more than enough for audio to satisfy me.

in order to have a commercial experience, you have to clarify if you are talking about a room large enough for a 20' wide scope screen or just a 12' one that you sit close to.

Again, you can have a better experience, but it depends on what you are looking for. when speakers are that far apart, then need much more than a typical reciever (certainly more than a 500$ one) just to fill the room. localaization of sound in a commerical system is done by putting speakers behind the screen and having sufficient sound levels to drive the speakers so that you do not feel that you are listening to a pair of TV speakers with a 65" plasma.

just saying that sound is not importnat to you is not being realistic. if you happen to be hearing imparied and it truly is not important, then we are missing key info in helping you.

Not that you need to spend tons of dough on the audio side, but if you are going to put in a 12-14' wide image, then you need a 7 channel set of half decent speakers, along with likely a more robust receiver that can separate tall the channels, do some switching, perhaps the kind that partners with a pretty robust 7 channel amp. and at the least, a few wall treatments. this can be as simple as some fiberglass ceiling panels covered in fabric.

How big is the room, is 20K you proj budget or the whole room budget?

A $500 reciever would be more than enough for audio to satisfy me.

:eek: 'Different strokes for different folks' I understand and impressive video does have a higher initial WOW factor, but IMO it is the audio that differentiates great home theaters from merely good ones! It is also on the audio side that commercial theaters can be roundly and soundly beaten!

On a related topic, is it the opinion of those who have actually seen them that the current crop of 3-chip DLP projectors are materially better than LCOS units like the Sony VW200? I own the latter, and was recently at a friend's house who has the Sim C3X - and while it was nice I was not blown away as I had anticipated. Perhaps it was a setup/calibration problem (and he does use a bigger screen than I do), just curious about other peoples impressions?

On a related topic, is it the opinion of those who have actually seen them that the current crop of 3-chip DLP projectors are materially better than LCOS units like the Sony VW200?

Yes, they are without doubt better, and in my personal experience, significantly so. Whether that difference is worth the price is an individuals call. There is also the fact that some install simply dictate a 3 chip solution, mainly due to size. I'm assuming you are purely talking about domestic 3 chip. Look at DCI machines and then you are into a different level again, hindered only by their CR. That issue now seems to have been solved.

If you want specifics, let us know

Regarding the VW200 specifically....I have never liked the image and performance of LC based machines. When I looked at the VW200 I was very impressed and actually felt that I had to post in the VW200 thread, as I had been very critical of LC based PJs. Its the first machine of its type that I would consider to rival a good single chip DLP. I said so very clearly in that thread and was thanked for that. It was hampered only by its light output, but thats not an issue to everyone. Most definitely, and very clearly, superior to the JVC offerings. It was my opinion, and still is, that anyone looking to spend upto $15k MUST have a look at this machine.

"Regarding the VW200 specifically....I have never liked the image and performance of LC based machines. When I looked at the VW200 I was very impressed and actually felt that I had to post in the VW200 thread, as I had been very critical of LC based PJs. Its the first machine of its type that I would consider to rival a good single chip DLP. I said so very clearly in that thread and was thanked for that. It was hampered only by its light output, but thats not an issue to everyone. Most definitely, and very clearly, superior to the JVC offerings. It was my opinion, and still is, that anyone looking to spend upto $15k MUST have a look at this machine."

The SP-A800B by Samsung is far superior. :) Read the reviews. I looked at lower-end Runcos and the VW200 and the Samsung is much better.

As for the original question, I have a system around the 20k range that the poster was asking about. I also had a very limited budget and tried to get the most bang for my buck, and I can understand what you mean.

I don't have a great amp, but my system sounds great. I have a set of Focal Audio Profiles (908's and 918) with a Pioneer VSX 92. I have a Stewart Greyhawk screen. I liked the Focal speakers far more than Martin Logans that cost about the same. The sound makes a huge difference, but (perhaps like you), I don't hear too well so it didn't make sense for me to invest in a high end system that I would appreciate fully.

Since you already own a blu-ray player and HD Tuner, this'll get you some really great sound and an outstanding picture that'll rival 30k projectors in my opinion. I felt like that if I wanted to take a significant step up in any respect I'd have to spend nearly 3-4 times what I paid; that was my sweet spot.

As for the wiring--I won't touch that issue with a 10' pole.

Further, if you're careful, you can save a lot of money buy purchasing used items. Nice Stewart screens are always going on sale at Ebay, here, and Audiogon. Great speakers/receivers are there too.

The SP-A800B by Samsung is far superior. :) Read the reviews. I looked at lower-end Runcos and the VW200 and the Samsung is much better.


shitarum,

My post was referring exclusively to LC based machines. I was actually complimenting ca1ore's choice of machine. This makes your post very crass and tactless, as it was this compliment you quoted

I wont get into discussing the Samsung as it doesn't warrant a place here, either in terms of cost or performance. Yes, I have seen it.

Your $30k suggestion is not only well wide of the mark, you've just regurgitated that from a review.

man, some of you old guys are getting real concrete. Just answer his question.


for 20k you can get a CIH Lens (you want this) and a projector bright enough for a 14ft wide screen, and the screen.

picture quality will be better than any film movie theater.

used equipment is a great value...you may end up spending more in Lens than PJ.

man, some of you old guys are getting real concrete. Just answer his question.


for 20k you can get a CIH Lens (you want this) and a projector bright enough for a 14ft wide screen, and the screen.

picture quality will be better than any film movie theater.


The question, if you read the OP, was regarding a $20k PJ. Not a $20k system. This isn't a forum for such systems.

Discussion of a $20k "system" most certainly belongs elsewhere. The other forums will obviously have far more direct experience and expertise of such systems. Go where the best advice is.

PS.What makes you think that all the people here are old?:)

as always, i would say that for folks who want more concrete info, this forum is one of the better places. the debate on 20K proj vs 20k system rages on, but suffice it to say, it was intended to be a place for folks who did not want to be innundated with "you are a moron to pay more than 5K" comments.

as always, i would say that for folks who want more concrete info, this forum is one of the better places. the debate on 20K proj vs 20k system rages on, but suffice it to say, it was intended to be a place for folks who did not want to be innundated with "you are a moron to pay more than 5K" comments.

I agree, this section of AVS is outstanding as a resource and a sounding board BUT....If I were looking for info on a PJ that would anchor a $20k system I would be better served asking those who actually own and operate them. I would also wish that someone would pont me in that direction.

Similarly, I wouldn't ask advice on an HT5k purchase on the $3k forum. People on there don't like when high end machines are brought into discussions concerning machines native to that forum. Thats an understandable reaction.

I personally don't see there is a debate regarding $20k PJs or $20k systems. A balanced $20k system involves a PJ that is well covered elsewhere. The OP clearly mentioned a $20k PJ.

Most regular posters here would see a quality 14ft CIH system for under $20k as wholly unrealistic, and to be out of sync with this forum by an order of magnitude. You have a better insight into that than most.

On a related topic, is it the opinion of those who have actually seen them that the current crop of 3-chip DLP projectors are materially better than LCOS units like the Sony VW200?

That depends alot on what you want to do with it. If you're like me, and your goal is to reproduce film as close as possible, then my answer is no.

I don't care about watching sports and so on and I don't want 25ftL on the screen. Been there, done that, not for me.

So the goal is film and in my opinion the VW200 is still king when it comes to that, if you leave aside a few things. At a certain screen size, even if you don't want 20+ ftL, there's no other choice than DLP because LCoS won't be bright enough. Leave aside the Sony 4k units, which are rather poor performers when it comes to image quality.

Forget about 3D, you can't do it with a single unit. If you want 3D, go the DLP route.

DCI, legally there's no way to get DCI content into these machines. Again, go with a 3-chip DLP that can take it.

If you forget the above things, your source is BD and your screen has the right size, I'd take a VW200 over any 3-chip DLP (and that includes the C3X1080 and HT5000). Now, I admit that a VW200 requires *alot* of tweaking (much more than a 3-chip DLP) to perform very well and if you want it to perform at its best, you need hardware and software mods for it. That's not for everyone, but 3-chip DLPs also require modding when you want the best from them (Peter is doing mods to his Barcos, I'm currently developing a software and hardware mod for a C3X1080). I'll not go into the modding any further.

None is perfect and it all depends on what you want. For me the killer is light output (I'd like a LCoS machine that can light up a 20+ft wide screen) and clearly DCI. I want my DCI content and (legally) that's only possible with 3-chip DLP. So make your decision. :)

If you're like me, and your goal is to reproduce film as close as possible, then my answer is no.

Stephan, I have to disagree there.

The best that can be done is to transparently reproduce the source material. Thats NOT film. It is simply a degree of accuracy or fidelity with respect to the DIGITAL source presented to the PJ.

I've seen the "film like" claim made many times to describe the softer image of certain LCoS PJs on sections AVS. That image style is applied no matter the source of the original content, so in those cases its not "replicating" anything, it just altering the image.

Also, having seen film done properly my opinion of it changed. Alan encouraged me to take the opportunity to see a good print on a well set up machine. If the DP shot a certain way, the image was softer but other films were as razor sharp as any digital.

The Christie PJ was positioned in front of a Barco DCI machine. Over 6 screenings the Barco produced an image that was largely faithful to the "clean" print, 2 were compared to DCI file and all 6 to BD. On material that was digital in nature the Barco was clearly better that the print version. I'll leave the DCI/BD comparisons aside at this point. The sharpness of a fresh print projected onto a 12ft screen was a revelation.

If someone prefers one solution to another thats great, but to suggest that one is producing a more "film like" image from a digital source such as BD is potentially very misleading.

Each to their own.

Good luck with your mod development. I look forward to reading about, or even seeing, the results.

I'm currently developing a software and hardware mod for a C3X1080).

Which aspect of the C3X1080's performance are you trying to improve with your mods?

Which aspect of the C3X1080's performance are you trying to improve with your mods?

All, except for scaling since source is native resolution.

All, except for scaling since source is native resolution.

Sounds interesting. Are you at liberty to share any details?

The way its worded seems to infer its associated with a 1080 source. Is taht the case.

Is this a solo project or for a recognized company?

When can we expect to see the fruits of you labor?

S shape gamma curve is possible.

S shape gamma curve is possible.

Peter, was that a question or a statement?

If it was a question, I believe that is in hand as we speak;)

We were looking at it, me and my west coast Q branch.

A few tips. Your picture will always be limited by its source. Most all of todays projectors right down to some of the budget projectors are capable of delivering an image beyond todays best consumer source.
If you will be sitting within the standard sitting distance from your screen 1 to 1.5 screen width using a 1080 projector and if your room is light controlled ( you mentioned up to 120" wide screen ) you may find satisfaction from the more popular mid priced projectors without the need for spending 20k. A Larger screen size would indeed require additional horse power taking you into 3 chip DLP domain $$$$$.
Plenty of 20K + options out there that benefit even the smaller screens. The extra coin usually but not always buys you more features, brightness with higher ANSI contrast, better optics with electronic H/V lens shift zoom and focus with more inputs in some cases including HD SDI. Always remember, there is no perfect product. They all break down and they all have bugs even at 150K so service after the sale should also be part of your research.

Good luck.

Sounds interesting. Are you at liberty to share any details?

The way its worded seems to infer its associated with a 1080 source. Is taht the case.

Is this a solo project or for a recognized company?

When can we expect to see the fruits of you labor?

I'm doing this on my own, no company involved at this point for the C3X1080. I've always modded things, TVs, CRT projectors and at some point digitals. It's just something you have to do if you want the best from it.

If costs will go over $10k, I'm gonna forget about the whole thing. It's not worth to put over $10k into the C3X1080.

I can't say when it's done, as I have other business projects running that have a much higher priority right now (after all that's where the money is).

For business purposes, we're usually doing heavily modified VW100s (mod cost is about $10k) which only sells with our installations (not HT related). We're also using the C3X1080 (standard) and the HT5000 (with a little mod) and if that's not enough, Barco or Christie, usually Barco because they have a medical imaging division. I can't talk about the mods we're using for business as my partners have a problem with that and they're not interested in the HT market at all. That's one reason I decided to do the C3X1080 on my own, but that also means I can't put alot of time into it.

I hope to have something by the end of the year and if not, there's the new Sony 4k and the Christie HD10k just around the corner. :)

Some things I'm looking into specifically are better colors, over 10k:1 and more ANSI CR. Still thinking about input options. Guess we'll have to wait and see what's possible. :)

Thanks for sharing that.

I'd be more than interested in your work on the HD10k, as Ive yet to equip my main room and thats a contender along with a couple of others.

Thanks for sharing that.

I'd be more than interested in your work on the HD10k, as Ive yet to equip my main room and thats a contender along with a couple of others.

Not sure when I can get my hands on that, but hopefully soon. From what I've been told, the first 6 that I could see will go into a virtual reality room. We'll see. :)

And a high end proj can make as big of a screen as you want.

Her is another forum member W. Mayer with a 100K (or so) proj

Not to go off topic...but which projector is that with a 100K price?

That's one reason I decided to do the C3X1080 on my own, but that also means I can't put alot of time into it. Some things I'm looking into specifically are better colors, over 10k:1 and more ANSI CR.

Of those, the one that would interest me most would be "over 10k:1".

What, in your opinion, is the tweakable bottleneck in the current design that keeps the C3X1080 from delivering that?




.

It is a Barco DP-2000 digital cinema unit. In reality it is about 77k. These things can be modified which would take them over 100k.

Of those, the one that would interest me most would be "over 10k:1".

What, in your opinion, is the tweakable bottleneck in the current design that keeps the C3X1080 from delivering that?

I don't think there's a single bottleneck, it's rather a combination of several bottlenecks. Optical path, the lens itself, signal processing and DMD control. If you can tweak those, you will usually get better on/off CR, but it's also possible to run into trouble and other things will suffer. I don't know yet what that could be on the C3X1080, that's further down on the to-do list.

Keep us posted.