Has anyone used there Level 1 or Level 2 services? I know a lot of people on this forum have used the L3 service, but i'm not building that kind of room.

I'm just wondering if L2 is worth the extra money over the first one.

Cheers,

KeithR

Aw crap, all of the posts in this thread have been lost.

Mike Lavigne, if you come back around here I'd appreciate your answers to my questions: did you find the third visit by Richard (instead of Chris) was worthwhile? Did it make a big improvement when he had finished tweaking and measuring? What kind of measurements did he take (e.g. RT60, frequency response, etc...)?

I was wondering if it was worth saving the money on the visit by Richard and getting someone like Bob Hodas to come instead. What do you think?

thanks,
Asher

What the heck happened? obviously I must have missed something happening.

Never mind I read the notice. LOL

To recap, I believe we had sort of reached a concensous that with Level 1 and Level 2, you are taking a chance of not being satisfied with the results.

For Level 3 (aka Mike Lavigne Level :cool:), everything is outstanding, but still is dependent upon equipment used for varied results.

I think this sums up what all the missing posts had eluded to. Of course there were a lot more words in all of the original posts. ;)

Edit: Oh yeah... a couple of other things:

Choice of equipment and how particular components interact with any given room is important.

And the number one most important is... Proper Room Size and Dimensions! It's better to start with a room that is friendly to sound, than to try and fix one that isn't.

To recap, I believe we had sort of reached a concensous that with Level 1 and Level 2, you are taking a chance of not being satisfied with the results.

For Level 3, the question was put forward if there are any Level 3 clients that are dissatisfied.

And everything above Level 3 (aka Mike Lavigne Level :cool:) is pretty much outstanding.

I think this sums up what all the missing posts had eluded to. Of course there were a lot more words in all of the original posts. ;)

Edit: Oh yeah... a couple of other things:

Choice of equipment and how particular interacts with any given room is also important.

And the number one most important is... Proper Room Size and Dimensions! It's better to start with a room that is friendly to sound, then to try and fix one that isn't.

If I'm not mistaken, Mike's room was a level 3 design. He was able to start from scratch with no fixed room dimensions limiting him.

If I'm not mistaken, Mike's room was a level 3 design. He was able to start from scratch with no fixed room dimensions limiting him.

Ah, you are correct. I got mixed up because there is a Level 1 + in addition to Level 1. I edited my post.

I think Grellberg's point (before the posts were lost) was that some people with the level 3 were not happy with the results.

It's a big commitment to do a level 3 room, and it adds roughly 12-15k to the cost of building the room (assuming you were going to do it anyway). The materials used are commonly available and the construction techniques involve a bit of time and that's what adds cost too. The finishing will affect the cost depending on how detailed you get. If you were to take an existing room and add on bass traps and sound treatments it can get pretty expensive just in parts alone plus it won't have the built-in look. For me, the price of the room was worthwhile just for the look of it alone. Pictures don't do it justice, when I had my audio pals over the gasps of amazement were universal (for the look/workmanship as well as the end result). Like Mike Lavigne said, there's still some tweaking to be done once the room is finished but I guess that depends on how much of a perfectionist the person is. Also, it really is important that the speakers chosen are size appropriate to the room - which is also important in any room I suppose.

I'm still hoping Mike, or anyone else, will chime in about the value of the third visit from Rives vs getting someone like Bob Hodas to optimize speaker positioning.

My Rives design was a Level 2. While there were some pre-studded walls in the un-finished basement, their design modified the existing room dimensions, made use of additional height by not making a drywall ceiling and hence getting extra room height (and better bass) and we were able to build in all of their room treatments (bass traps in the soffets, diffusive ceiling behind a cloth covering, etc. Their design called for LP shelves on the back wall (behind the listener) but because I had RPG Skylines leftover from a previous room (50 of them to be exact), I had them modify their plans to include the Skylines. I happen to like the look. but not everyone would. I made it clear to them in the design process that this HAD to be a function over form solution and that while I loved the look of Mike Lavign's room, I did not want to go in that direction. And I would also agree with the on-going tweeking process. The room was designed with corner bass traps and some bass traps in the soffets AND the ability to open more of them once the system was up and running and we could determine where the bass problem were. So the room has a LOT of flexibility as either (1) my taste changes or (b) my equipment does --- specifically in the sub 80Hz range (I have upgraded to 4 subs since the original design and am in the process of determining the optimum number of open soffet bass traps.

And the results: The best room I have ever owned and am not using EQ or room correction for 2 channel. Is it the best room I have ever heard? No. That honor belongs to a friend who was in a position to start with a blank sheet of paper (they were building a new home) and he used a Level 3 Service.

I would also concur that if you can get a reasonable set of dimensions before you start, you are way, way, way ahead of the game.

And slightly off topic, MS Word Spell check does not seem to like ANY of the possible spellings of the word "soffett" or "sofet" or sofett" or any other combination I can find. So how is it spelled?

I also am using the Rives (and other) software to fine tune the room so if one is not able, or inclined to do so, I would recommend that "after completion" visit.

I've tried taking measurements, listening, making speaker position changes, repeat. It's quite tedious. I wasn't sure if they had a more efficient way of finding the "best" spot using software such as ETF etc....

And slightly off topic, MS Word Spell check does not seem to like ANY of the possible spellings of the word "soffett" or "sofet" or sofett" or any other combination I can find. So how is it spelled?It is perfectly happy with 'soffit' and suggests that as a replacement for 'soffet.'

I've tried taking measurements, listening, making speaker position changes, repeat. It's quite tedious. I wasn't sure if they had a more efficient way of finding the "best" spot using software such as ETF etc....

It is incredibly tedious and time consuming (I spent 6 to 12 months fine tuning when I built my last room and once my business slows down for the season will embark on the same process in this room). I used marks at the listening position and in both directions for the speakers and the number combinations is large. I would initially move the speakers or seat in large increments and then once I got a sense for what generally happened, would move in smaller and smaller increments. I used an impulse measurement and used the Frequency Response conversion to deal with the bass issues and used the time measurments to determine where reflections came from so I could apply appropriate treatment. The final results were worth it. I would be surprised if there were any "magic" approach that could make it less time consuming (assuming you are as anal as I am and want the "perfect spot" for listening position and speakers).

I know that Wilson dealers don't do this for installing their speakers but when I had Wilsons, after the dealer left, I did it as above and got much improved results over his approach ... but to each his own.

It is perfectly happy with 'soffit' and suggests that as a replacement for 'soffet.'

And that's why you write for a magazine and I don't. Thanks

You're hired! lol. (for speaker setup that is, not for magazine writing)

I don't think there is a magic approach but I'm sure Rives and others have better tools available than I do to measure and interpret and presumably that would speed things up. I've done the incremental movement thing like you described and it's fatiguing, but ultimately worthwhile.

It is incredibly tedious and time consuming (I spent 6 to 12 months fine tuning when I built my last room and once my business slows down for the season will embark on the same process in this room). I used marks at the listening position and in both directions for the speakers and the number combinations is large. I would initially move the speakers or seat in large increments and then once I got a sense for what generally happened, would move in smaller and smaller increments. I used an impulse measurement and used the Frequency Response conversion to deal with the bass issues and used the time measurments to determine where reflections came from so I could apply appropriate treatment. The final results were worth it. I would be surprised if there were any "magic" approach that could make it less time consuming (assuming you are as anal as I am and want the "perfect spot" for listening position and speakers).

I know that Wilson dealers don't do this for installing their speakers but when I had Wilsons, after the dealer left, I did it as above and got much improved results over his approach ... but to each his own.

I thought I should chime in...

I bought a level 2 Rives design package, and for the money it was worth it. Am I 100% happy? No, but a level 2 is meant as band aid over a previous room footprint, not a start from scratch or complete renovation solution. I added a lot of significant costs to my room by forcing the level 2 design to have that kind of scope.

The room sounds significantly better than it did originally. It did however require additional electronic band aids (DSP), but my understanding, based on speaking with other people in the acoustics field, is that this is often unavoidable in the areas where I am experiencing issues (modal reinforcements and nulls in the lower frequencies...). I did expect the issues in my room to be slightly less than they are though.

Considering that I paid $2100 dollars for the schematics at the time, I think the room sounds great. I do think I went overboard on the room construction or that I went under-board with the level of the design I chose. Perhaps I should have chosen a design level 3 considering what I ended up doing in the room construction-wise...

I would never general contract work like this again for myself (well unless I designed the room myself - in which case that might make some sense). I would opt for a turn-key solution or hire a general contractor who is competent to do the integrating and worrying for me. Though, the world seems to lack contractors that follow acoustic schematics from what I have heard.

In my next room, what I am most concerned with is finding someone who will do their best to iron out as many problems in the modal responses with acoustics first, and then only use DSP for the last yard. I am very tempted by one turnkey solution being offered, but I need to examine further whether or not the kind of acoustical tweaking I mentioned above is a part of the process, or if the room is just built and DSP added without trying to iron out fundamental irregularities first. My worry is, the more erratic the response is below 500 Hz, the more higher frequency response issues may develop that are uncorrectable without potentially noticeable higher frequency signal processing noise.

I know that Wilson dealers don't do this for installing their speakers but when I had Wilsons, after the dealer left, I did it as above and got much improved results over his approach ... but to each his own.


I still have Wilsons speakers, WP7's and Sophias. Just a real quick story. My local dealer who's a good friend of mine helped me set up my WP7's who in turn did a great job. But like you being anal about my room and it's sound found small tweaks to the speakers that the dealer didn't do like changing the Watt's spikes to the next taller size, which in turn changed the tweeters response. Maybe that's why some people complain of the Watt/Puppy being bright in some systems due to the way they're setup?

I don't think I have much to input.
I had a level 1+ service.
New construction. Some limitations in place such as HVAC lines, etc.
The process took a while but I was happy with the results.

Mike

To recap, I believe we had sort of reached a concensous that with Level 1 and Level 2, you are taking a chance of not being satisfied with the results.


Count me as yet one more person who was very disappointed with a Rives Audio Level 1 service. My initial instructions explicitly stated that I didn't want certain things, and wanted other things, and those instructions were ignored, the representations on the Rives Audio website were not accurate and the work product was totally unusable. And the Rives Audio attitude all along was extremely rude and unprofessional --and frankly just wrong and ignorant about certain things.

I got much better advice (at least it was accurate and helpful) from Ethan at realtraps on this forum and from Bryan at sensiblesoundsolutions.com when I later bought some materials from him.

Feel free to PM me for details.

Those are some pretty harsh criticisms, care to give some examples? I didn't PM you, I decided that if you're going to judge someone then I think it's reasonable for you to give your reasons for the judgment at the same place.

I know that Wilson dealers don't do this for installing their speakers...
Don't do what? Spend 6-12 months moving speaker in various increments? Not if they want to stay in business they don't. On the other hand, if they were to do so and charge by the hour, it sounds like an excellent business model ;).

Don't do what? Spend 6-12 months moving speaker in various increments? .

Well they sure didn't do that.....or anything close to it. When I bought Watt Puppies the dealer came to my home and used the Wilson "voicing" system (or so he called it) where he either spoke or clapped hands or something and listened near the front corners and moved the speakers until he was satisfied that it was corrrect. After he spent maybe an hour or two at the most, he pronounced that he was completed. I listened and told him it sounded like garbage and I ran an impulse measurement while he was here, showed him a 12 db bump at 64Hz (and a bunch of other horrible frequency issues) and he told me I needed a new amp!!

I spent maybe an hour after he left using real measurements and dramatically improved the situation by moving the speakers and the listening position.. I can only believe that he was NOT representative of a typical Wilson dealer or Wilson would have been out of business a long time ago.

For what I spent for those speakers, I should have gotten a lot better service (and results) than that.

Subsequently, I spent several more months fine tuning but after a year or so dumped them since they were definitely not my cup of tea.

LOL, that absolutely does sound like your average high-end audio dealer. Some clapping, and am amp recommendation to fix a 12 db frequency hump. I'll have to add that to my archive of high-end audio store stories.

There are some EXCELLENT high end audio dealers but as I traveled around the US when I was in the audio business, I found as many inept and unknowledgeable dealers as I did competent ones.

High End Audio, just like everything else, has some really great people, some really sleazy people, and everything in between. It's too bad that all of the original posts were lost in this thread. For one thing, I had mentioned that Rive's local contact here in Dallas wanted to sell me cables to correct my acoustical problems. He was originally brought in because he was suppose to come out and measure my room. But he couldn't get the software to work. After a while, he (and Rives) quit contacting me altogether. No follow up... nothing. As I said in my post that was lost. Luckily I found a local dealer that DID know his stuff, and also turned out to be a great guy. With his help, and a lot of work and self education on my part, I finally got things in order. That particular room itself was a disaster. And it was made worse after Rives. What I ended up doing was selling the house, and bought a new one with a room that had favorable dimensions for audio to begin with. That coupled with making some better choices in equipment has led me finally to audio contentment. I sold much of the commercial acoustical products that Rives had recommended after moving into the new house. The new room didn't need it, and was tame-able with a very minimal amount of treatment.

You know what they say, "you can't polish a turd". Same for a really acoustically tough room. I wouldn't expect the level 1 service to make things perfect. But I also wouldn't expect the BS treatment you got. Whenever someone says that a cable of some sort will fix significant audio issues then it's time to run the other way!
It's not always practical but the best way to determine if any acoustic person is worthwhile is to listen/scrutinize a previous project. I wish I'd had the time to listen to Mike Lavigne's room before designing mine but I couldn't change my ceiling height anyway so it wouldn't have really changed anything. Listening to someone's level 1 or 2 design before purchasing would be of value imho.

You know what they say, "you can't polish a turd". Same for a really acoustically tough room. I wouldn't expect the level 1 service to make things perfect. But I also wouldn't expect the BS treatment you got. Whenever someone says that a cable of some sort will fix significant audio issues then it's time to run the other way!


You ain't just Woofin! And that former room of mine was one great big giant turd!

. What I ended up doing was selling the house, and bought a new one with a room that had favorable dimensions for audio to begin with. That coupled with making some better choices in equipment has led me finally to audio contentment. I sold much of the commercial acoustical products that Rives had recommended after moving into the new house. The new room didn't need it, and was tame-able with a very minimal amount of treatment.

Yes and thank you for the great deal. Those RPG Skylines are doing a great job on the ceiling. I do understand why you don't like them. It's a balancing act of getting the diffusion from making the highs too bright and adding enough absorption. The other guys diffusers that are similiar to the Skylines are cheaper and do not at all have that effect. The Skylines work well for me on the ceiling however but that's the only place I use them. My wife's friends actually like them. They think that they were some sort of art and I was "into" that sort of thing. But then how many people see art that's butt ugly and are just afraid to say so:D.

You know what they say, "you can't polish a turd". Same for a really acoustically tough room. I wouldn't expect the level 1 service to make things perfect. But I also wouldn't expect the BS treatment you got. Whenever someone says that a cable of some sort will fix significant audio issues then it's time to run the other way!

Yes. After about 10 years, I finally convinced a friend to just TRY some acoustical treatments. The designer of his speakers who also sells him cables;) kept insisting on changing cables and what did I know:). Finally he listened. It did not take a lot of treatments either. Just about 6 two by four feet tall OC703 panels at first reflection points did the trick. It's the first time he has ever stopped switching out cables to solve the problem. I"m not anti-cable either.

Yes and thank you for the great deal. Those RPG Skylines are doing a great job on the ceiling. I do understand why you don't like them. It's a balancing act of getting the diffusion from making the highs too bright and adding enough absorption. The other guys diffusers that are similiar to the Skylines are cheaper and do not at all have that effect. The Skylines work well for me on the ceiling however but that's the only place I use them. My wife's friends actually like them. They think that they were some sort of art and I was "into" that sort of thing. But then how many people see art that's butt ugly and are just afraid to say so:D.

Bulldogger, you're very welcome! I'm glad those worked out well for you. On a side note, I'm with your wife's friends. I always thought that skylines looked like cool artwork as well. I almost wish I had kept a couple of them for experimentation, such as what Mike Lavigne did with a couple of Skylines in his setup. But in the end, that wouldn't have worked for me anyway since I now have a fixed screen, instead of a retractable one.

http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/mikel/AVS-diff.jpg

Rutgar,

a few weeks back i posted on this thread. as i type slow i spent quite awhile posting some pictures and writing comments. that night AVS had a failure and my posts were lost. i was frustrated after all the time i invested and did not take the time to repost.

anyway; i thought i would at least post another picture of my center diffuser that you were referring to. i painted the diffuser a color that works both in the light and when i have the lights dim. i do view it as functional art and seems to compliment my Navajo's as well as the maple cabinetry and the fabric wall coverings. when the lights are dim it is soothing and with daylight it is subtle.

as i posted previously; i experimented with the width and height of the diffuser to find what works. you cannot just throw up a diffuser and assume it will make things better. this diffuser is the only acoustical addition i have made to my Rives room. OTOH it has taken me 4 years to optimize my system in the room. every time i thought the room was a source of problems it turned out to be my gear in some way. when Rives designed my room they told me that i would likely want to change things a bit over time; particularly they over built my bass trapping and thought i might want to cover some of it depending. adding buiilt-in bass trapping to an existing room is not realisitic; covering some already built bass trapping is easy. i have not made any changes and the bass performance in my room is breathtaking now.

mike

Skylines work well for me on the ceiling however but that's the only place I use them. My wife's friends actually like them.

Yep, the purpose of the Skylines is to deepen the sense of space in space limited areas, such as a low ceiling or walls that are too close to the seating position. The balancing act is choosing the right height diffuser so that you leave enough space between the listening position and the tip of the skylines in order to get the full bloom effect. Looking at my room now, Rives may have chosen the wrong size Skylines for my setup. I might have seen more benefit from the smaller sized version so that the diffusion effect had more space to bloom completely at the main seating position. I found this out when discussing the Skylines' positions, the Skylines directly above my seating position, with RPG; RPG mentioned that the particular Skylines I had installed should have more space between their tips and the seating position in order to have their full desired effect. That doesn't mean they are doing anything harmful though. It also doesn't mean the Skylines around the rest of the space aren't having their desired effect.

While, as previously mentioned, for the price I am satisfied with what I received from Rives Audio, I do think some of the approach could have been different. No audio/acoustical measurements were taken previous to all the work being done. Knowing what I know now, that is not necessarily a great move. Since it was a level two, measurements should have been taken to identify problems prior to actual design and construction IMO. Computer simulations don't account for everything, and unless the theoretical design wasn't meant to have a semi-flat low frequency response, my room bares witness to that.

None the less, besides these gripes, the improvement to the sound of my room was still great. The nice thing is, I can alter most of the things that are wrong with the space as time goes on on my own, and/or use EQ techniques on the left over issues...

...OTOH it has taken me 4 years to optimize my system in the room. every time i thought the room was a source of problems it turned out to be my gear in some way.


Although my biggest problems were with my room in my old place, I completely understand what you're saying about the gear. A lot of my gear has changed as well since getting a more 'cooperative' listening space. It has really amazed me how every single piece of the audio puzzle can make a difference to one degree or another.

[QUOTE=mike lavigne;14702341a few weeks back i posted on this thread. as i type slow i spent quite awhile posting some pictures and writing comments. that night AVS had a failure and my posts were lost. i was frustrated after all the time i invested and did not take the time to repost.
mike[/QUOTE]

Hi Mike, I had posed a question to you just before the AVS failure. If you have a moment, I'd appreciate your input on a couple of questions: Was it worthwhile to get Richard out for the third visit to calibrate the room/speakers? Did he spend much time moving and measuring the speakers in the room or was it more like a listening session where you opened a few bottles of wine, took a couple of measurements and listened to some tunes? The other option is to get someone like Bob Hodas out. I'd appreciate your candid response if you're comfortable giving it.
Asher

I too have Skylines in my room. In my previous room, they were on the ceiling but when we built my new room, we use the ceiling joists as difussors (see photos) and put the Skylines on the back wall.

I too have Skylines in my room. In my previous room, they were on the ceiling but when we built my new room, we use the ceiling joists as difussors (see photos) and put the Skylines on the back wall.

Looks impressive. That is some nice joinery in the ceiling. I like the "King of the Remote" cushion; I take it that is your chair? :)

Sean

Man, that looks like it was a lot of work doing the ceiling joists that way! I'm guessing you covered it with GOM? What frequencies do they address?

It would have been cool to construct a bunch of these prime seed generated diffusers (http://82.95.237.142/mhsoft/diffusor.asp#calcul) into those joists (using whatever measurements you have up there of course...). ;)

Man, that looks like it was a lot of work doing the ceiling joists that way! I'm guessing you covered it with GOM? What frequencies do they address?

The guys that did the work came up with a pretty cool way to do it. They used an old drafting triangle i found that had the correct angle on it and first marked the joists and then came back with a nail gun and fired away. I think it took him a couple of long days. I do not remember the frequencies it dealt with

And yet, it was covered with the same material that I used on the corner traps, soffits, and wall panels. A not very good photo is atached.

Looks like they did a really nice job!

Those are some pretty harsh criticisms, care to give some examples? I didn't PM you, I decided that if you're going to judge someone then I think it's reasonable for you to give your reasons for the judgment at the same place.


One example is on this thread here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1041340

I didn't mention in that thread that it was Rives Audio who was giving the bad advice (because at the time I didn't know how difficult they would be to work with and didn't then feel motivated to warn others about them) but Rives Audio actually told me (even wrote on the plan) that I should put doors on the open doorway to my HT because otherwise I wouldn't be able to "contain the low frequencies" and thus wouldn't be able to "control their response". (no, they weren't talking about sound isolation.) That's just one example of nonsense that Rives Audio tried to peddle to me as acoustic advice.

I'll post more details later when I have some more time. Meanwhile, I encourage others not to believe what Rives Audio posts on their website about their Level 1 service and would encourage those who are considering using them to look at other options.

One example is on this thread here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1041340

I didn't mention in that thread that it was Rives Audio who was giving the bad advice (because at the time I didn't know how difficult they would be to work with and didn't then feel motivated to warn others about them) but Rives Audio actually told me (even wrote on the plan) that I should put doors on the open doorway to my HT because otherwise I wouldn't be able to "contain the low frequencies" and thus wouldn't be able to "control their response". (no, they weren't talking about sound isolation.) That's just one example of nonsense that Rives Audio tried to peddle to me as acoustic advice.

I'll post more details later when I have some more time. Meanwhile, I encourage others not to believe what Rives Audio posts on their website about their Level 1 service and would encourage those who are considering using them to look at other options.

In my own experience with door vs no door, Rives is correct. As the other posters on that thread have noted, it does depend a bit on other factors also, including what else is happening in the room as far as bass trapping, HF absorption, and location of door. Think about it - the woofer is trying to "pressurize" a space - if the space is small it is easier for the woofer to generate a certain amount of bass. If the space involved is much larger (for example when the door is opened) then the woofer's ability to pressurize the space changes. Theory and practice don't always line up perfectly so it's not a big surprise to see different "experts" disagree.

because otherwise I wouldn't be able to "contain the low frequencies" and thus wouldn't be able to "control their response". (no, they weren't talking about sound isolation.) That's just one example of nonsense that Rives Audio tried to peddle to me as acoustic advice.

In my experience it is anything but nonsense. In my old room and before Rives got involved, I had double doors on the back wall and it was almost impossible to predict what the bass would do with the doors open and very straightforward to predict (and hence control)with the doors closed. You clearly did not like the advice they gave you and I assume the results you obtained but they do understand acoustics. On the other hand, I would wholeheartedly agree that they at least use to have some "resellers" that did not know poop from shoe polish about acoustics. And it would certainly be reasonable to hold Rives accountable for selecting those resellers.

Rives has done two rooms for me and I am pleased with the results of both.

It appears that their major problem is in defining/setting/agreeing to expectations for Level I and Level II. All of the complaints I have read center around that subject. There is only so much that can be done with an existing space.

And for what it's worth, I have heard major complaints about other room design vendors that have been highlighted in this forum but I choose not to throw names since I have no personal experience with them. No body is perfect (with the possible exception of my x-wife!)

Did Level 1 with Rives ( only level available in Malaysia). Great communication with Richard. Ever willing to answer some of my questions promptly. Did some adjustment subsequently as there are limitations during renovation of my hifi room. However the fee was fair in my opinion. To me, its a no brainer to acoustically treat our hifi room as some if not all of us has gears costing a lot more than what Rives audio charge us. Will it be perfect? For the fee I paid, I dont expect it to be ideal but a good starting point for me to do some tweaking after moving in my gears and testing the room.

Since the merits and demerits of open doors is probably of more interest to people following that thread I posted part of my reply on the thread listed above.

On the merits and demerits of Rives:

but they do understand acoustics.

The guy I spoke with didn't even know what a sabine was and seemed to think that essentially adding absorption would cause (rather than solve) room mode problems.

And anyway, my room had an open doorway and that just a fact of the room that they would have to deal with. If they couldn't deal with it, they should have refused the job. There are rooms on the Rives website that are open to other rooms so it seems that they would be able to deal with such a common situation.

It appears that their major problem is in defining/setting/agreeing to expectations for Level I and Level II. All of the complaints I have read center around that subject. There is only so much that can be done with an existing space.

In my case, my expectations (and their obligations) were based on their statements on their website and my specific instructions to them on what I wanted and what I didn't want. For instance, I specifically said that I did not want to just hang retail products on the wall or ceiling and that instead I wanted detailed plans to give to my carpenter to construct something that would work better than retail products and cost less. When we spoke we agreed that the principal was that by spending money on good detailed custom plans using relatively cheap raw materials I would have a result that was better than using retail products.

In fact their website states: "Most of our designs use standard building materials, where the material cost is relatively small. Many of our level 1 customers have installed the designs themselves at a very modest cost."

The result: Despite their own website and despite my specific instructions, the plan was essentially to hang $7k worth of RPG hemifussors from my ceiling and thousands more of RPG 2x4 BAD panels on the walls.

So much for using standard building materials or custom plans to give my carpenter.

The sense I got was that Rives Audio just wanted to apply a cookie cutter plan to my room dimensions and get rid of me.

And for what it's worth, I have heard major complaints about other room design vendors that have been highlighted in this forum but I choose not to throw names since I have no personal experience with them.

I also have heard through this forum (and through PMs) complaints about others too, and because I was warned about them, I didn't go with them. But I wish someone had also warned me about Rives Audio. But I'm happy to now do that for others.

On the merits and demerits of Rives:




In my case, my expectations (and their obligations) were based on their statements on their website and my specific instructions to them on what I wanted and what I didn't want. For instance, I specifically said that I did not want to just hang retail products on the wall or ceiling and that instead I wanted detailed plans to give to my carpenter to construct something that would work better than retail products and cost less. When we spoke we agreed that the principal was that by spending money on good detailed custom plans using relatively cheap raw materials I would have a result that was better than using retail products.

In fact their website states: "Most of our designs use standard building materials, where the material cost is relatively small. Many of our level 1 customers have installed the designs themselves at a very modest cost."

The result: Despite their own website and despite my specific instructions, the plan was essentially to hang $7k worth of RPG hemifussors from my ceiling and thousands more of RPG 2x4 BAD panels on the walls.

So much for using standard building materials or custom plans to give my carpenter.

The sense I got was that Rives Audio just wanted to apply a cookie cutter plan to my room dimensions and get rid of me.



Deja-vu! I also told him that I was fairly handy, and could build things to keep the cost down. And just like you, I got a cookie cutter plan with... oddly enough... $7K worth of RPG products!

It sounds like you and I got similar treatment. Of course I then complained, and that's when he said he would do me a 'favor' and let me pay the differenece to upgrade to the next level service (something his secretary says he never does), and then got me in contact with some local guy that couldn't get the acoustic measurement software to work, and wanted to sell me cables.

I find it peculiar that Rives has not posted on this thread.. So far their reputation is taking a beating and they don't seem to have reacted... Strange...

I find it peculiar that Rives has not posted on this thread.. So far their reputation is taking a beating and they don't seem to have reacted... Strange...

Why would that be peculiar? If most successful businesses took time out from business to defend their business practices against every detractor, they wouldn't have time to stay in business...

I normally do not watch these forums but one very happy client whom we've done a few rooms for contacted me and suggested I respond. Our company has done over 1000 room designs and our customer satisfaction is well over 99%. I wish it were 100%, but I've come to the conclusion that is not realistic.

Rutgar's comments bother me. For one, with many designs, I do not know who he is or what the circumstances were that we recommended going to a higher level. It is VERY unusual for us to offer this and there must have been a very good reason. My other concern was why we were using pre-fabricated material if he specifically didn't want that. We do not sell that material and we receive nothing for specifying. Basically we have no invested interested in recommending an RPG product, or Auralex product, or RealTraps, or Kinetics, or Quiet Rock, or Green Glue or build it yourself. So for us to use pre-fabricated material vs build in makes no monetary difference to us. That being said, there are often times when prefabricated solutions are the only practical ones. For example if you need diffusion behind a 2" fabric stretched surface you are pretty limited to RPG BAD panels. If you need diffusion on the ceiling and you have a low ceiling and can not open up the sheetrock and build something behind fabric the RPG Hemifusors are usually a good option. Rutgar--if you can please contact me directly as your comments about the pre-fabricated material and what apparantly happened with our dealer are not the way we want our clients handled.

There is another complaint on this thread from a gentleman who went through our process and did not like the advice we gave. He was very upset when we made a note on his plan that not having doors would lead to an uncertainty in the low frequency performance of the room. After measuring hundreds of rooms with similar situations I know that the theory and the actual results are often considerably different with this scenario. This gentleman ordered a level 1, which does not include actual measurements. We would do the design without the doors, but I felt it was only fair to make a note of that caveat.

I think we should also point out our process. All clients regardless of level go through the same basic process that involves 4 phases: dimensions, ergonomics, concept, and schematics. (with level 3 there is also in process and final inspections) We take a deposit to start and that goes through the first 3 phases. At each phase the client MUST approve that phase before we go on to the next phase. Once a phase is approved we do not go back to that phase--so the client does have a responsibility to insure they are happy and understand the drawings at each phase before approving. The concept phase contains the acoustical treatment/devices for the room. We always discuss with the client what the devices are. If we design a room that has pre-fabricated devices and you do not want those--you should say at that time--I don't want pre-fabricated material, what other options exist? And we will explore what other options might work. If we have to redo the concept 3, 4, 5 times, we will until it meets the client's approval. So if someone says after we've completed a design "I'm not happy because they used pre-fabricated material." My question would be "Why did you approve your concept plan then?" Without the approval of the client we do not move to final schematics.

It is unlikely I will follow this thread much longer. I did this because a valued client strongly urged me to, but normally I would not take the time. I'm very proud of our overall customer satisfaction and I'm even more pleased with the number of clients that have had us do a design for one home have either moved or bought and additional home and asked us to another design there for them as well. However, that being said, I do take certain criticism (such as the apparant treatment Rutgar got) very seriously and while our customer satisfaction is extremely high, that does not mean it can not be improved upon.

Rives

Why would that be peculiar? If most successful businesses took time out from business to defend their business practices against every detractor, they wouldn't have time to stay in business...

If Rives has some unhappy customers posting here, they have nothing to gain by participating, cause if they haven't made the customer happy yet odds are they won't by coming here. Their posting on AVS will only prolong their agony.

Sort of feel sorry for Rives. They cater to "audiophiles", who are very, very picky. If they just catered to typical CEDIA folks, all customers would be happy regardless of one dimensional soundstaging and no real piano sounds. HA!

If Rives has some unhappy customers posting here, they have nothing to gain by participating, cause if they haven't made the customer happy yet odds are they won't by coming here. Their posting on AVS will only prolong their agony.

Sort of feel sorry for Rives. They cater to "audiophiles", who are very, very picky. If they just catered to typical CEDIA folks, all customers would be happy regardless of one dimensional soundstaging and no real piano sounds. HA!

Sadly, some of those audiophiliacs don't know what real music actually sounds like, and have extremely overactive and inaccurate imaginations to boot, both of which add up to unrealistic expectations... So I have to agree with some of your post. Not all of it though, since you would have to have listened to every Rives Audio designed room to declare that they have "one dimensional soundstaging" and "no real piano sounds."

Sadly, some of those audiophiliacs don't know what real music actually sounds like, and have extremely overactive and inaccurate imaginations to boot, both of which add up to unrealistic expectations... So I have to agree with some of your post. Not all of it though, since you would have to have listened to every Rives Audio designed room to declare that they have "one dimensional soundstaging" and "no real piano sounds."

Q, my comment about "one dimensional soundstaging" and "no real piano sounds" is a comment about many CEDIA type rooms. Not a reflection on Rives at all. When I've heard Rives rooms at CES, last went about four years ago, they sounded very nice! I simply said that "audiophiles" are very picky compared to CEDIA types!!!! And frankly, a room might sound "better" by objective audio standards yet some audiophiles might not like it!

If they just catered to typical CEDIA folks, all customers would be happy regardless of one dimensional soundstaging and no real piano sounds. HA!

Come visit me in Atlanta (and my Rives room) and see if you hear one dimensional soundstaging and no real piano sounds. You won't.

Because 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 (or even a few more)folks are really unhappy with Rives, does not mean Rives does not have lots (I would suspects close to at least 1000) of very satisfied customers who, in fact, DO know what a real piano sounds like and are quite pleased with the accuracy of the system. I've heard enough of Rives rooms to say that at least the largest majority of the time, they get it right! Very right.

Q, my comment about "one dimensional soundstaging" and "no real piano sounds" is a comment about many CEDIA type rooms. Not a reflection on Rives at all. When I've heard Rives rooms at CES, last went about four years ago, they sounded very nice! I simply said that "audiophiles" are very picky compared to CEDIA types!!!! And frankly, a room might sound "better" by objective audio standards yet some audiophiles might not like it!

My misunderstanding, sorry.

Come visit me in Atlanta (and my Rives room) and see if you hear one dimensional soundstaging and no real piano sounds. You won't.

Because 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 (or even a few more)folks are really unhappy with Rives, does not mean Rives does not have lots (I would suspects close to at least 1000) of very satisfied customers who, in fact, DO know what a real piano sounds like and are quite pleased with the accuracy of the system. I've heard enough of Rives rooms to say that at least the largest majority of the time, they get it right! Very right.


You misunderstood me, too!!! Again, every Rives room I've heard at CES or The SHOW has been quite nice sounding, not at all like the CEDIA rooms. Do you get it now???

You prove the point. Rives has nothing to win by coming on the forum and disagreeing with the few unhappy customers. They gain more by the happy customers like you posting here.

Sadly, some of those audiophiliacs don't know what real music actually sounds like,

So audiophiles don't know what real music sounds like huh Queue? Whatever. :rolleyes:

So audiophiles don't know what real music sounds like huh Queue? Whatever. :rolleyes:

Some don't... They confuse their own self-conceived ideals with what actual music sounds like in the flesh and in the studio...

So audiophiles don't know what real music sounds like huh Queue? Whatever. :rolleyes:
I believe that QueueCumber was using the term "audiophiliacs" as a play on the words "audiophile" and "hypochondriacs" to characterize a small group of audiophiles who are so obsessed in their pursuit of perfection that they forget to listen to the music, and hence would not know what a real piano sounds like. I did not take it as a slur on audiophiles in general.

I believe that QueueCumber was using the term "audiophiliacs" as a play on the words "audiophile" and "hypochondriacs" to characterize a small group of audiophiles who are so obsessed in their pursuit of perfection that they forget to listen to the music, and hence would not know what a real piano sounds like. I did not take it as a slur on audiophiles in general.

Bingo

Bingo

Ah... okay. I guess I need to put my glasses on before reading this early in the morning, and before I've had my coffee!

Many of the audiophiles I know are also musicians, and very well know what 'real music' (and pianos) sound like. I am also a musician, and have a piano, and 2 drum sets. So I guess I was a little hypersensitive to the remark!

You misunderstood me, too!!!

Sorry. Your response had not been posted when I made my comments. But you are still invited to Atlanta!!

For what it's worth, I retained Rives to help me with a challenging room (lots of windows, joint use as home theater and two channel, etc.) and was extremely happy with the service.

The final drawings had NO RPG products specified, and by and large did not require significant expenditures with particular vendors.

I've used the design services of two other (unnamed in this post) firms that are highly regarded on this and other AVS Forums, and Rives was on a par with both.

I retained Rives to help me with a challenging room (lots of windows, joint use as home theater and two channel, etc.)
I am interested in what suggestions Rives made with respect to the problem of lots of windows. The right side of my listening/viewing room is comprised almost entirely of floor to ceiling French windows and curtains are not really a viable alternative for me.

Fabric wrapped panels attached to a soundboard type backing on a rolling track ... more mass than curtains. That concept fit my environment well because one third or so of the wall of windows wasn't windows.

In a prior home the (unnamed) designer was working on designing bespoke speakers built into the windows, for a wall of windows on the "screen wall" or the wall the listener was looking at. His alternative was a lift coming out of the garage directly below with soundboard/mass with acoustic treatments attached.

So let me see if I understand this... the acoustic panel, when not in use, would descend down into the garage?

here is more information, partially in response to the Rives post, for those considering engaging Rives.

He was very upset when we made a note on his plan that not having doors would lead to an uncertainty in the low frequency performance of the room.

I wasn't upset with the comment. I just thought it made no sense. And so I asked them to explain it. But it was the Rives Audio person who was upset when I pressed him to explain the comment. Like my Sunday school teacher who similarly resisted my questioning his dogma, Rives Audio didn't want to explain what they meant by this comment. I still don't know what it means to "contain the low frequencies". And they wouldn't answer why "containing low frequencies" was a good thing. In conversation Rives Audio refused to acknowledge that an opening to a large area was functionally similar to absorption. And he also didn't even know (and even argued with me) that the unit of measurement of absorption (a "sabine") is a unit derived from the equivalent absorption of a square meter opening (or sq foot in the US). This "expert" of acoustic design insisted that a sabine was an arbitrary unit of absorption and was not based on an opening of a certain size.

See http://www.acoustics-engineering.com/sabin/wcsabine.htm

If he doesn't know this, it makes me wonder what else he doesn't know.

At each phase the client MUST approve that phase before we go on to the next phase. Once a phase is approved we do not go back to that phase--so the client does have a responsibility to insure they are happy and understand the drawings at each phase before approving. The concept phase contains the acoustical treatment/devices for the room. We always discuss with the client what the devices are. If we design a room that has pre-fabricated devices and you do not want those--you should say at that time--I don't want pre-fabricated material, what other options exist? And we will explore what other options might work. If we have to redo the concept 3, 4, 5 times, we will until it meets the client's approval. So if someone says after we've completed a design "I'm not happy because they used pre-fabricated material." My question would be "Why did you approve your concept plan then?" Without the approval of the client we do not move to final schematics.

I specifically wrote in one of my first emails and stated repeatedly in early phone conversations that I didn't want pre-fabricated materials. I specifically stated, and the Rives person even agreed me with that, with a good plan, I could save money on the costs of materials.

I was floored and furious when I later -- too late -- found out the price of the RPG products.

Rives didn't provide any information about the price (or even say anything about how these product suggestions would directly conflict with my specific instructions that the point of a custom plan was to save money on materials.) The RPG prices aren't on their website; life is short, I'm busy, and I paid lots of money to someone else to do the design for me and I trusted that Rives would obey my specific instructions, and the idea that we discussed, that by paying for a good custom plan that I could save money on materials. It turns out that he just ignored those instructions and our discussion about saving money on materials.

I normally do not watch these forums . . . It is unlikely I will follow this thread much longer.

Rives Audio would do well to participate more in these types of forums -- if only for the educational function of being pressed to give reasons and evidence and sensible explanations for comments that they pass off as acoustic advice.

No doubt the readers of this forum benefit from the mini-dissertations of Dennis E. and the helpful practical postings of Ethan W., Bryan P and others, but those guys probably all also benefit from being questioned and forced to consider, discuss and refine their views on this forum. Rives Audio could certainly benefit from some of that.

There are many more problems I had with Rives Audio. To cite just one more, Rives insisted (and rudely, argumentatively, "how-dare-I-question-his-opinion" insisted) that my suggestion to substitute RPG Flatfussors (which I could buy v. cheaply from a source on avsforum) for the more expensive RPG BAD Panels wouldn't work because they had "a different scattering response." Turns out he just made that up. The "scattering response" (a measurement of diffusion) is identical as both products used the same diffusion overlay. The only difference is that Flatfussors only come in fixed size 2x4 panels and BAD Panels are a custom product and you can get them in many shapes, sizes and cloth coverings. And the BAD Panels are much more expensive. So specifying 2x4 RPG BAD Panels, when the RPG Flatfussors are the same product, but cheaper, is a complete waste of money. So, with no consideration for value to the client, Rives Audio of course spec'd 2x4 RPG BAD Panels.

In conversation Rives Audio refused to acknowledge that an opening to a large area was functionally similar to absorption.

As you have read from other posters, it may act as an absorber but not a predictable one and hence provides a huge problem (maybe impossible) for any designer to provide an optimized solution for bass management in the room without acoustically measuring the room first.

It you wanted someone to come to your home and and measure the room (with open doors) so they could better provide the correct solution, a Rives Level I or II was not the answer.

You have certainly made it abundantly clear that you do not like the way Rives dealt with you. And apparently doing all you can to try to insure no one ever uses them again!!

As you have read from other posters, it may act as an absorber but not a predictable one and hence provides a huge problem (maybe impossible) for any designer to provide an optimized solution for bass management in the room without acoustically measuring the room first.



Let's "predict" the effect of a 1x1 opening to an large non reflective area: Maybe the effect would be . . . . approximately one sabine of absorption? That would probably be a good estimate. See http://www.acoustics-engineering.com/sabin/wcsabine.htm ("The unit of sound absorption is square meter, referring to the area of open window. This unit stems from the fact that sound energy travelling toward an open window in a room will not be reflected at all, but completely disappear in the open air outside. The effect would be the same if the open window would be replaced with 100 % absorbing material of the same dimensions")

Much more unpredictable than a simple opening is the effect of various soffits, thickness and layers of drywall, sub placement, listener placement and large absorbent furniture in the room. All that unpredictability doesn't stop people from making intelligent and helpful designs on reasonable assumptions.

And at the end of day, any real "bass management" has to be done with listening/measuring/tweaking in the actual room. Especially moving the sub around. Anyone who says otherwise is kidding you. But that wasn't the issue in this case. The issue (one among many) was the quackery of the purported benefit of "containing low frequencies"; and the rude and pompous insistence that closed doors were essential to "the room sounding right."

I'm just posting information on Rives to warn others -- as a public service. I've learned much from these forums and am just giving back. Hopefully my warnings will save others some money and hassle.

I wasn't upset with the comment. I just thought it made no sense. And so I asked them to explain it. But it was the Rives Audio person who was upset when I pressed him to explain the comment. Like my Sunday school teacher who similarly resisted my questioning his dogma, Rives Audio didn't want to explain what they meant by this comment. I still don't know what it means to "contain the low frequencies".
zmist,

I'm no fan of Rives but at least this aspect of your complaint sure seems to be much ado about nothing. And BTW, I'd assume they were simply telling you that the more openings you have in a room, the more SPL you are going to lose.

As far as the other issues it sounds like there was a break down of communication. You say:

I was floored and furious when I later -- too late -- found out the price of the RPG products.

Did you ever express a budget to them? Did they ask you for one? They may have considered a few RPG diffusers as pretty standard stuff.

I do agree that based on your description of working with them it does not sound like they listened to what you wanted.

zmist,

I'm no fan of Rives but at least this aspect of your complaint sure seems to be much ado about nothing. And BTW, I'd assume they were simply telling you that the more openings you have in a room, the more SPL you are going to lose.

They could have said that, and that would have made sense, but, as I wrote above, that's not what he said at all -- he claimed it was a different problem.

I could have ignored the comment -- but it made me wonder about the rest of the plan -- Did he calculate the rest of the plan based on closed doors or not? Did it matter? I don't know -- he wouldn't say. He was oddly obstinate and refused to give specifics about anything. He seemed simply wanted me to receive his gospel, and not ask any questions.

If he calculated anything. I asked to see the calculations, as promised on their website, but he refused to show any to me.

He didn't ask for a budget and I didn't express a budget. But we did specifically discuss that the great benefit of the Rives Audio plan was that by spending $ on detailed custom plans that I could give to my carpenter I would save lots of $ on material costs.

As far as the other issues it sounds like there was a break down of communication.

I'm not sure what a "break down of communication" is.

I requested specific features to be included in the plan, and asked him to explain or revise specific questionable items in the plan and he ignored my requests and gave me a lot of nonsensical jibberish.

Is that a "break down of communication"? (shrug?)

So let me see if I understand this... the acoustic panel, when not in use, would descend down into the garage?


Yes. It was a room over a very large garage. The "screen wall" when not in use was all glass looking up a canyon. The basic concept (not from Rives) for music and theater use was an 8" thick "wall" on a lift at the far end of the garage. It wasn't nearly as hard to engineer as I'd imagined at first blush.

Yes. It was a room over a very large garage. The "screen wall" when not in use was all glass looking up a canyon. The basic concept (not from Rives) for music and theater use was an 8" thick "wall" on a lift at the far end of the garage. It wasn't nearly as hard to engineer as I'd imagined at first blush.

If you've got the space, this sounds like an interesting idea. But what did the floor look like when the unit was 'out of the way'? Also, did it go into a false wall down in garage?

There was a "door" built into a short floor level fixture, sort of like when you hang a retractable screen from a ceiling soffit.

Yes, false wall in gargage, mainly to keep the unit clean and out of the way. I didn't want my Wife leaning bicycles on the thing.

I am a satisfied customer of R. Rives B. I had two rooms designed. One was for movies and one was for music. He met all my expectations- something not easily done. He is a perfectionist and it shows in his work. He does not like to allow unpredictable elements into his designs. He understands acoustic theory and practice very well. I have read Everest's book on acoustics a few times. Rives and I discussed many of the trade offs and choices over several phone calls. He understands the science as well as anyone to whom I have ever talked.

The doorway is a huge unpredictable issue. Changes occur with its size, location, shape, location of speakers, sound frequency, and lateral response of the speakers. No one can account for all of these issues. I can attest to a significant change in my rooms with the door open or closed. In the room with a side door- huge changes occur. In the two channel room with a door at the back of the room only bass is significantly affected.

My opinion on Rives most important design issues are 1. room dimentions (MODES), 2. absorption including low freqencies (decrease reverb increasing intelligibility), 3. diffusion (increase perceived soundstage without losing intelligibility).

I did a 2+ level for both rooms. No RPG products were used-though they were in the design. I talked with RRB and discussed other options. By the way-the hand made options were not much cheaper just more aesthetically pleasing.

Bill

PS. His secretary has a beautiful English accent.

The doorway is a huge unpredictable issue. Changes occur with its size, location, shape, location of speakers, sound frequency, and lateral response of the speakers. No one can account for all of these issues.

Maybe for Rives Audio and other people who don't know what a sabine is, it is a "huge unpredictable issue."

Other points made in this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14726755#post14726755)show that the small bit of variability it may cause is minor compared to other much harder to predict factors -- which nevertheless can be dealt with by reasonable assumptions.

Also see re modes (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14230254#post14230254) and their supposed predictability.

PS. His secretary has a beautiful English accent.

Evidently this impresses some people -- not surprisingly his more satisfied customers.

You're really hung up on the sabine thing. You do realize that when you are looking at the sabine value of the open door you are assuming there is no reflection back at the door, right? Unless your door opens into a meadow or large open area then it is not exactly absorbing all incident energy - there will be some reflected back. If your hallway is say 3 feet wide then lots of sound will bounce back. Point is, it's a variable. Clearly you're not happy with Rives but there's no reason for jerk comments like your last one.

You're really hung up on the sabine thing. You do realize that when you are looking at the sabine value of the open door you are assuming there is no reflection back at the door, right? Unless your door opens into a meadow or large open area then it is not exactly absorbing all incident energy - there will be some reflected back. If your hallway is say 3 feet wide then lots of sound will bounce back. Point is, it's a variable. Clearly you're not happy with Rives but there's no reason for jerk comments like your last one.

That would depend on the shape of the hallway, i.e. - which direction it goes in...

Well that's exactly my point Q, i.e. it's not fully predictable and controllable based on a simple model like that which would be employed in the level 1 or 2 service.

You're really hung up on the sabine thing. You do realize that when you are looking at the sabine value of the open door you are assuming there is no reflection back at the door, right? Unless your door opens into a meadow or large open area then it is not exactly absorbing all incident energy - there will be some reflected back. If your hallway is say 3 feet wide then lots of sound will bounce back. Point is, it's a variable. Clearly you're not happy with Rives but there's no reason for jerk comments like your last one.

I don't care that Rives didn't predict with precision the effect of the open doorway. Rives also didn't predict AT ALL (forget about precision) the acoustic effect of the thickness of my drywall or the size of my soffits or the absorption of the furniture in the room. Those are variables that actually would have more acoustic effect than an open doorway.

I doubt they predicted anything since I asked for their specific calculations (as they say that they provide on their website) and they refused to provide anything to me.

The important point on the doorway/sabine issue is that Rives insisted on demonstrably false propositions, namely:

1) Failure to "contain low frequencies" would have a bad acoustic effect (note: he didn't just say it is "unpredictable"; he actually predicted, even insisted, that it would be bad acoustically to have an open doorway.)

2) He also insisted that a sabine is an arbitrary unit of absorption and has nothing to do with an equivalent opening.

Such ignorance on these points makes me wonder what else he is ignorant of. (In addition the other things I posted such as insisting that a flatfussor had a different scattering response from a BAD panel).

Further open doorway talk would be more appropriate in the other thread on that topic (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1041340).

If someone wants to pollute the forum with a post entirely about the accent of someone's secretary, they should be prepared for uncharitable replies.

If someone wants to defend Rives, give examples of their specific good work, how they followed your specific instructions, how they saved you money by giving custom plans that your carpenter found helpful and useful and practical instead of just spec'ing expensive retail products; how they demonstrated knowledge of various retail products that were actually good values; how they did something clever that you couldn't have figured out yourself from common knowledge on the internet.

Maybe they do that it level 2 or 3? I don't know. In my level 1 case, they did none of that. The plan was simplistic and pathetic. And even worse, instead of making an effort to fix things, or acknowledging that they made mistakes, or that they didn't follow their terms, they proposed only doing more work for more money.

I suspect their happiest customers are those that do not frequent sites like this and educate themselves and instead are just happy to get a big fancy looking piece of paper that tells them where to hang expensive products.

zmisst,

It sounds like you shouldn't have tried to save money and should have gone with some of the 20k to 60k designers on the market. I'm not sure what you were expecting to get at this price level, realistically speaking of course... You can't seriously expect someone to hand design you specific room treatments at this price level? You claim to have done a lot of research, but I don't think you did, because designs at that level of detail can easily run 40k plus for just the CAD schematics using the top software on the market when they aren't cookie-cutter and are done by MS level professionals who are top experts in their fields...

zmisst,

It sounds like you shouldn't have tried to save money and should have gone with some of the 20k to 60k designers on the market. I'm not sure what you were expecting to get at this price level, realistically speaking of course... You can't seriously expect someone to hand design you specific room treatments at this price level? You claim to have done a lot of research, but I don't think you did, because designs at that level of detail can easily run 40k plus for just the CAD schematics using the top software on the market when they aren't cookie-cutter and are done by MS level professionals who are top experts in their fields...

Is it not 'reasonable' to expect a 'more audibly favorable room' even from an acoustic designer's 'Low Level Service'? I find it almost gobsmacking that the very same people in this forum that balk at $200 cables, defend poor acoustical advice for $1500. And that price doesn't include the additional $5K to $10K in acoustical products from such advice.

Is it not 'reasonable' to expect a 'more audibly favorable room' even from an acoustic designer's 'Low Level Service'? I find it almost gobsmacking that the very same people in this forum that balk at $200 cables, defend poor acoustical advice for $1500. And that price doesn't include the additional $5K to $10K in acoustical products from such advice.

Well, I don't know about you, but compared to what I had before, my room was audibly much better. Perfect? No. Certainly better than if I had tried to do it on my own, knowing next to nothing when I started out the process.

I can understand wanting to DIY with the treatments to save money, but expecting someone to give you designs of each type of treatment is ridiculous at the $1500 Rives price-point, considering the costs in design time. If he was that particular about saving money, he could just go online and figure out how to build the recommended RPG products himself on the online fora for acoustics. I certainly don't think the advice I received was poor for the $2100 I spent, considering the prices offered by other players in the field.

This of course doesn't mean I don't agree with Zmisst on other issues he had with Rives (believe me, I had my own). I'm just pointing out that his expectations for the price range he is playing in are a over the top. Go call some of the top experts in the field and see what they charge per hour, and then ask them how many hours it would likely take to fix a room with only mechanical means (built treatments) if the room doesn't happen to have perfect dimensions right off the bat and if the room doesn't actually match up with the theoretical expectations for the dimensions given. This doesn't include the intial CAD drawings based on computer analysis (which often require major in-room re-working after the fact, because the theoretical and the practical often don't match up extremely well). Non-cookie cutter approaches are going to run you into price ranges significantly higher. Don't trust me on it, call some of the top designers out there... I did.

You quoted me and then talked about cables... You obviously have never read my posts concerning cables. You are barking up the wrong tree with that one. I'm the last person you will find telling people to buy expensive cables. If you are insinuating that people shouldn't have to pay more for better acoustical engineering by drawing a comparison to audio cable properties, that is a fallacious comparison for obvious reasons...

It appears to me that zmisst has more than complaints about Rives. He has some kind of an axe to grind. Could there be some ulterior motive here other than just trying to be a gracious audiophile to warn others of his experience? Sure appears that way to me.

His responses to virtually every note put up (I'm sure this one will be included) border on (or are way past) the irrational. Breath slow and have a glass of wine....you will be much better off.

It appears to me that zmisst has more than complaints about Rives. He has some kind of an axe to grind. Could there be some ulterior motive here other than just trying to be a gracious audiophile to warn others of his experience? Sure appears that way to me.

His responses to virtually every note put up (I'm sure this one will be included) border on (or are way past) the irrational. Breath slow and have a glass of wine....you will be much better off.

I don't know if I would go that far... I do think his expectations are unreasonable at this price level though...

but expecting someone to give you designs of each type of treatment is ridiculous at the $1500 Rives price-point

Except that is exactly what the Rives Audio website states in the description of the Level 1 service: "These have complete assembly drawings (http://www.rivesaudio.com/services/servframe1.html)"

My expectations about the service are based precisely on what is stated on the Rives website about the Level 1 service and what was further specifically communicated in emails and phone calls.

The design work I got from Rives reflected about 30 minutes of drag and drop work. He plotted the room dimensions, dropped some retail panel$ around it, added another plan page with his stock diagrams for his bass trap contraptions (not even customized to my room, and the stock diagrams themselves aren't even very detailed and would still leave the average carpenter scratching their head) and called it a day. It was a cookie cutter plan that took very little thought and involved no helpful customization, no consideration of budget or aesethics and had no non-obvious helpful details and in general completely violated the representations about what the service would include.

I don't know if I would go that far... I do think his expectations are unreasonable at this price level though...

For what I got, I've seen better advice on this forum for free.

Except that is exactly what the Rives Audio website states in the description of the Level 1 service: "These have complete assembly drawings (http://www.rivesaudio.com/services/servframe1.html)"

My expectations about the service are based precisely on what is stated on the Rives website about the Level 1 service and what was further specifically communicated in emails and phone calls.

The design work I got from Rives reflected about 30 minutes of drag and drop work. He plotted the room dimensions, dropped some retail panel$ around it, added another plan page with his stock diagrams for his bass trap contraptions (not even customized to my room, and the stock diagrams themselves aren't even very detailed and would still leave the average carpenter scratching their head) and called it a day. It was a cookie cutter plan that took very little thought and involved no helpful customization, no consideration of budget or aesethics and had no non-obvious helpful details and in general completely violated the representations about what the service would include.

Poor you... Next time spend more money. :p

I still think you probably misunderstood things. Even if you didn't misunderstand, you had opportunities to say something before the design went on to further stages. I was allowed to change things even after a stage had ended (something you aren't supposed to be allowed to do in their charter), but Rives was willing to let me do it anyway...

For what I got, I've seen better advice on this forum for free.

Good then, you obviously know enough to do a room yourself then. So why did you need a consultation? The service is for people who can't figure it out for themselves, or don't have the time. Much like I wouldn't build or maintain my own motorcycle, even though I could with enough time to spare and knowledge.

I'm starting to think audioguy was right and that you both have alterior motives...

Good then, you obviously know enough to do a room yourself then. So why did you need a consultation? The service is for people who can't figure it out for themselves, or don't have the time. Much like I wouldn't build or maintain my own motorcycle, even though I could with enough time to spare and knowledge.

I'm starting to think audioguy was right and that you both have alterior motives...

And what would that be? Don't make accusations that you can't back up. I've told the complete truth about my experience with Rives. No matter how you slice it, $1500 is a lot of money. And like I said before, that didn't include the other $10K in commericial treatments that I bought on his advice. And I'm sorry, but saying I'm expecting too much for $1500 is some of the biggest bunch of crap I've ever heard.

When I mentioned "bass trap contraption" above I was referring to this bass trap soffit design:



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=102619&d=1203481454


Rives Audio spec'd the exact same thing for me. I looked at it with some curiosity. It's a soffit cavity only lined with fiberglass, and then with a board with fiberglass on it hanging at an angle in the middle, suspended. !

This isn't a trick question; I'm genuinely interested, but can anyone explain why this works better than just stuffing the soffit full of insulation and covering it with cloth? Or more specifically, explain why it is sufficiently better that it is worth it to go to the extra trouble?

The more typical bass trap soffit just stuffed with insulation is discussed in this very helpful thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=683042) (which oddly contains a good post on what a sabine is!)

I don't really care enough to keep engaging either one of you anymore... Good luck finding someone to meet your ridiculous expectations at $1500...

I don't really care enough to keep engaging either one of you anymore... Good luck finding someone to meet your ridiculous expectations at $1500...

Well, first off. I'm not looking for someone to do anything for me at the moment. Not for $1500, or any other price. Second, Rives is who sets the price points for his services, and indicates what he is supposed to deliver for that price. I only expected what Rives promised. Nothing more, nothing less. And finally, it's YOU who is getting personal and making false accusations about my motives for posting here. So yes. Please stop engaging in this thread.

I find this thread interesting/funny. I also engaged Rives (Level 2) to design my room (from scratch, over my garage). Fortunately, I was able to do all of the work myself. I got great advice from Richard on everything from building materials, wiring, heating, materials for the shelves, etc. They were always available, and I never had any contentious conversations with anyone. Their plans allowed me to build all of the acoustical treatments with the exception of 4 BAD panels ($800). I haven't called the local dealer yet for the final measurements/tweaking, but even with my admittedly mid-fi setup (saving up money for the good stuff), the bass, detail, imaging, soundstage L-R and F-R is better than anything I've heard in any room (excepting, maybe the Rives dealer). And yes, I also am a musician, and believe I have a realistic basis to judge the sound. I can't really say anything negative about my experience so far. I guess I'm one of the happy 900+ customers Richard was referring to. Back to lurk mode now ;)

Tom

Hmm.. $1500 is a lot of money for some things and very little for others.

Personally, I would look at the cost of good advice as a function of how much money I plan to spend on the room itself along with some factoring in the total cost and sophistication of my equipment.

If I had a system like OB's, I couldn't in good faith hire anyone to consult on my room for $1500 as the cost suggests a low level of detail and sophistication.

Now, if I had a total $10K budget, $1500 is about the limit I would spend on plans and advice

Now if my room budget was $100K, I would skip over any company that offered to meet my spec's for a grand total of $1500. You would have to know that that price would be more commensurate with advice to a low level room design. If he has better more high end equipment and plan to spend a good sum on acoustical work, $1500 would be an unreasonable sum to pay for competent advice.

I don't know what the Rutgar's overall budget is (or what kind of equipment level he has), but if it was in the $10K range, $1500 would be a fair sum to pay in line with his budget.

Hmm.. $1500 is a lot of money for some things and very little for others.

Personally, I would look at the cost of good advice as a function of how much money I plan to spend on the room itself along with some factoring in the total cost and sophistication of my equipment.

If I had a system like OB's, I couldn't in good faith hire anyone to consult on my room for $1500 as the cost suggests a low level of detail and sophistication.

Now, if I had a total $10K budget, $1500 is about the limit I would spend on plans and advice

Now if my room budget was $100K, I would skip over any company that offered to meet my spec's for a grand total of $1500. You would have to know that that price would be more commensurate with advice to a low level room design. If he has better more high end equipment and plan to spend a good sum on acoustical work, $1500 would be an unreasonable sum to pay for competent advice.

I don't know what the Rutgar's overall budget is (or what kind of equipment level he has), but if it was in the $10K range, $1500 would be a fair sum to pay in line with his budget.

I completely agree with that. Queue totally misrepresented what my complaint with Rives is about. It's not about how much money I spent (which was about 12K total including treatments and renovations), but how afterwards, things sounded way worse in the room than they did before I even hired Rives. To me, it's like having a dirty carpet, and hiring someone to clean it, and when they're done, the carpet is even dirtier than before. Same thing when hiring an acoustic adviser. If things sound worse in the room afterwards, then they didn't fulfill their part of the contract. The price paid is completely irrelevant to that.

has any one used these guys? I heard that they are really good but was wondering if any one had experience with them. :confused:

http://keithyates.com/

has any one used these guys? I heard that they are really good but was wondering if any one had experience with them. :confused:

http://keithyates.com/

Very well know and quality designer.

Keith is supposed to be excellent.

He is Elite, best of the best. I have seen some of his work, one of my clients has a room created by him. The Home Theaters and Listening Environments that he creates are amazing. However, perfection comes at a price.

Keith Yates does an excellent job. If Rives Audio meets your budgetary needs, I think you'll find Keith's fees beyond your threshold of pain.

Since this thread has been revived, I'll just comment that I've been moving my speakers around in my Rives-designed room and have found what I think is the "best" position in terms of compromises in the room. The spikes have been put on the speakers and fine-tuning of the system has begun.

In retrospect, I think it was worth the money spent for Rives. I doubt anyone else would've come to Canada in person for much cheaper and the end result is very pleasing to me and my family in terms of cosmetics and satisfactory to me for the audio portion. It's not a perfect room but the limitations in room height precluded building a perfect room.
I never ended up getting them out for the third visit because I have no intentions of moving the speakers again anyway and can live with the sound as is. I'd just be paying them to drink my wine, listen to my tunes, and take a few measurements.

The best rooms I have EVER heard were done by this group, Performance Acoustics Labs. Both of the rooms that I heard were previously done by Rives, and I can attest, they sounded horrible. Both were TOTALLY ripped out (tens of thousands of dollars wasted), and redone by PAL.

They are amongst the best rooms many have ever heard.

http://www.performanceacousticslabs.com/PAL/Home-Acoustics_Listening_Rooms.html

There was a dealer in Chicago (Ultimate Audio I think) that had a Rives level 3 room which then changed to a Swedish designed one, I wonder if this is the company? Probably not. I see that the company is owned by Harmonic Resolution Systems. I heard one of their prefab room "systems" locally. It cost either 20k or 40k and was quite mediocre imho. A lot of money for stuff you just hang on the walls. Might have been worth it if it performed like you'd expect for the cost but it didn't.
I'd love to "hear" a Keith Yates room...one day.

There was a dealer in Chicago (Ultimate Audio I think) that had a Rives level 3 room which then changed to a Swedish designed one, I wonder if this is the company? Probably not. I see that the company is owned by Harmonic Resolution Systems. I heard one of their prefab room "systems" locally. It cost either 20k or 40k and was quite mediocre imho. A lot of money for stuff you just hang on the walls. Might have been worth it if it performed like you'd expect for the cost but it didn't.
I'd love to "hear" a Keith Yates room...one day.

We had two Rives level 3 rooms at Ultimate Audio Video which we eventually had redesigned by Svanå Miljö Teknik in Sweden. They did the design work and supplied the acoustical treatment products. One of the rooms can be viewed on the home page of their sight, http://diffusor.com/. These rooms are now designed and built through Performance Acoustics Labs (PAL) in the US.

Based on conversation with Mike Latvis of PAL, they have not supplied any prefab systems, nor designed any rooms in Canada yet.

I can safely say that I am very familiar with the acoustic measurements and sonic performance of two PAL rooms. They are spactacular! I cannot recommend them highly enough.

Ah, thanks Ron. I thought I'd read somewhere (Jeff Fritz's thread)that you were part of the Chicago dealership before going to Blue Smoke.

I guess I won't get to hear your Chicago rooms after all. I'd be interested in your candid opinion on Rives and other rooms - perhaps someday in person. The forums are probably not the best place to get into this.

When I mentioned "bass trap contraption" above I was referring to this bass trap soffit design:



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=102619&d=1203481454


Rives Audio spec'd the exact same thing for me. I looked at it with some curiosity. It's a soffit cavity only lined with fiberglass, and then with a board with fiberglass on it hanging at an angle in the middle, suspended. !

This isn't a trick question; I'm genuinely interested, but can anyone explain why this works better than just stuffing the soffit full of insulation and covering it with cloth? Or more specifically, explain why it is sufficiently better that it is worth it to go to the extra trouble?

The more typical bass trap soffit just stuffed with insulation is discussed in this very helpful thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=683042) (which oddly contains a good post on what a sabine is!)

just wanted to ask one more time for anyone to explain this rube goldberg design of a bass trap.

any thoughts on the bass trap above?

any thoughts on the bass trap above?

I have one.
Since there was no A/B on only doing that soffit bass trap it's hard to say how much it adds to the room.
Any specific questions?

Mike

Addendum:
You can barely see my soffit trap in this pic: link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17372184#post17372184).
My HT is on the newest AVS "HT Revealed" DVD so it should show it better.
(I have yet to view the DVD)

Since this thread has been revived I'll add an update. I have a Rives level 3 room. I never did get the 3rd part (the calibration) done by Rives. I had thought there were some issues with the room and that they wouldn't be solved by calibration alone and felt that would be a waste of money.

I just had Adam Pelz do an audio calibration and I can say that it is remarkable what he was able to do without changing any of the structure of the room. If I started off at 60% satisfaction with my fairly expensive gear and the Rives room then I got up to about 90% satisfaction by the time the calibration was complete. Best money I've spent in a long time. I'll post more details later in the audio calibration thread...

Since this thread has been revived I'll add an update. I have a Rives level 3 room. I never did get the 3rd part (the calibration) done by Rives. I had thought there were some issues with the room and that they wouldn't be solved by calibration alone and felt that would be a waste of money.

I just had Adam Pelz do an audio calibration and I can say that it is remarkable what he was able to do without changing any of the structure of the room. If I started off at 60% satisfaction with my fairly expensive gear and the Rives room then I got up to about 90% satisfaction by the time the calibration was complete. Best money I've spent in a long time. I'll post more details later in the audio calibration thread...

Cool.
Please post a link from this thread to the other thread(s) when you add.
Thanks,

Mike

I just had Adam Pelz do an audio calibration and I can say that it is remarkable what he was able to do without changing any of the structure of the room. If I started off at 60% satisfaction with my fairly expensive gear and the Rives room then I got up to about 90% satisfaction by the time the calibration was complete. Best money I've spent in a long time. I'll post more details later in the audio calibration thread...

How much and where is he?

How much and where is he?

His name is Adam Pelz and he posts here occasionally (do a search). He lives in Atlanta but travels extensively (even up here to the Great White North!) I'll leave the "how much" to discuss with him. It's certainly reasonable for what he does and can achieve.

When I get a chance I'll post more details.

I also have a Rives room (Level 1+ or something like that) and while much of the sonics are OK, there is an upper mid-range glare that makes 2 channel un-listenable at times. I have taken the measurements that Rives asked for, sent them to him and he tells me it is not the room. But given I have tried 4 pair of speakers, 3 pre-amps, 2 dacs, 3 cd players and 3 amps (and untold combination of interconnects, speaker wires and power cords) and continue to have the same problem, the room is the only other possible source of the problem. I have been trying to isolate this problem for 2+ years !!!

Since I live in Atlanta, I fairly recently had Dennis Erskine (who brought Adam Pelz with him) come and take a look/listen and give me a proposal to fix my problem. I have yet to hear anything from them but anxiously await.

As an aside, Rives did my last room and from 100hz up, it was the best room I have ever heard before or since. This time, not so good!

I also have a Rives room (Level 1+ or something like that) and while much of the sonics are OK, there is an upper mid-range glare that makes 2 channel un-listenable at times. I have taken the measurements that Rives asked for, sent them to him and he tells me it is not the room. But given I have tried 4 pair of speakers, 3 pre-amps, 2 dacs, 3 cd players and 3 amps (and untold combination of interconnects, speaker wires and power cords) and continue to have the same problem, the room is the only other possible source of the problem. I have been trying to isolate this problem for 2+ years !!!

Since I live in Atlanta, I fairly recently had Dennis Erskine (who brought Adam Pelz with him) come and take a look/listen and give me a proposal to fix my problem. I have yet to hear anything from them but anxiously await.

As an aside, Rives did my last room and from 100hz up, it was the best room I have ever heard before or since. This time, not so good!

I'll PM you later...

zmisst:

I had the same Rives designed soffit designs. They were a pain in the rear end to construct. Initially I only had a few of the trap locations opened but when I decided to open them all up (the fronts of the unused traps were covered in drywall) I ended up stuffing them all (including the oiginal ones) with the left over 703 that I had. I spent a lot of time reading and researching on soffit traps and the entire universe (less Rives) recommends stuffing them. I specifically paid attention to Ethan Whiner of Real Traps.

I have no way to compare them. My rear corner traps are done the exact same way but they are 8 feet tall.

I once asked Richard about his approach versus everyone elses and he said something to the effect that his approach covered more of the bass frequencies (or something like that).

As an aside Real Traps says there is no such thing as too much bass traping and given I had 4 subs, I was never sure why Rives only had me open about 15% of all of the available soffit traps.

Oh Well !!

I just checked out the PAL website. LOTS of diffusion and very little visible absorption.

Cool.
Please post a link from this thread to the other thread(s) when you add.
Thanks,

Mike

Here it is:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=19051493#post19051493

Some background:

Some time ago, Rives designed and built a room for a friend (Level 3) that turned out superb. He had just bought some land and was designing a house from the ground up and wanted a new listening room. Rives designed a room within a room and the results were/are spectacular.

As a result of his experience, I contracted Rives to do a level 1 or 1+ or something (don't recall at this time) and the results from 100Hz was the best room I have ever heard. It was an already existing theater/two channel room. The thing, however, I thought quite odd was that he had me build soffits that were not bass traps. The response below 100Hz was no better than before I made the changes and were it not for some very serious digital room correction, would have been unlistenable.

I sold that house, bought another and again contracted Rives to design a new room only this time, it was an almost blank space (studded walls in an unfinished basement).

Once the room was completed it became quickly obvious that something was amiss. There was an upper mid range glare that made listening to music impossible. To eliminate all variables, I tried 4 different pair of speakers, 3 amps, 2 DACS, three preamps, all kinds of cables, power conditioners, etc including moving the speakers to the other end of the room. Nothing helped.

When it became obvious that it had to be the room I contacted Richard and I got the first of many “it can't be the room” responses. I had another acoustical engineering company come in and they said it was the room. The speaker designer came in, and he said it was the room. A local company who sells acoustical products (GIK) said it was the room. And every time I mentioned this to Richard, he commented: "It can't be the room".

Both GIK and Mark Seaton seemed to think it was the ceiling and when I mentioned this to Richard, I got the response: “we’ve used this ceiling hundreds of times and there has never been an issue”.

So no matter what overwhelming evidence I provided that the room was in fact the problem, Richard refused to agree. During this 3-year period, he was in Atlanta twice for CEDIA and refused to come by to listen. All I would get was “It’s not the room and it’s not the ceiling”.

Well guess what? Through the data available on AVS and other sites and incredible on-site assistance from GIK, we have fixed the problem. It was the room and it was the ceiling.

The fact that the room sounded horrible is not my primary problem here. What I find totally and completely unacceptable was his refusal to even admit the possibility that the room was the issue when all of the evidence demonstrated otherwise. I could go on but I won’t. I wasn’t even looking for free. But since he designed the room, I felt (and still do) that he should have owned up and helped me find the problem. He did send me his test equipment which I used and sent him the files and he again said” “it’s not the room”!!

While I am sure Rives has lots and lots of satisfied customers, Richard’s approach to (no)Customer Service is unacceptable.

Knowing what I know now, I would never consider him for anything other than a level three (and given his approach to customer service, probably not even then). There is more than enough information and resources available to anyone who cares to look at places like GIK, Real Traps, AVS, HomeTheater Shack and no telling how many other places to not need to rely on a company such as Rives for a project the scope of mine.

If I were to ever have another room designed by someone, I would insist on a customer satisfaction clause.

Buyer Beware !!!

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