Hey, AVS gang..

Simple question - I know that SD DVD PQ will be 'better' using an Oppo 983 rather than a streamer like the TVIX 6500..

BUT.."HOW" much better? Will the PQ be noticeably "WOW!" better, or would it take someone with a real ability to notice subtle differences to know that the movie is being shown via an Oppo vs. a TVIX 6500?

I'm torn between sticking with a pile of discs and buying an Oppo, or going with a TIVX 6500 and clearing up my shelves..(plus, the whole concept of a media server is way cool to me as a tinkerer..)

Thanx..

- B

If you want to do more than just play DVD's like playing other digital content, OPPO is
not the right choice and buying both is overkill unless you are an absolute quality freak.
Though you can see the difference, I don't agree it is "all that much" in general on TV's
up to 42". Higher, it will become more noticeable like using Beamers and project meters
of images up a wall or screen.

Thanks..Hi-Jack..

I should have probably mentioned this is for a dedicated HT..projecting an image from a Sony PJ to a 110'' diag 16:9 screen..

How well would the TVIX handle that type of scenario compared to the Oppo?

Also - how's the UI for Music on the TVIX? I thought I'd read on the forums that it's not very easy/fast to navigate MP3s and that it's ultimately best at streaming vids?

Thx..

- B

Oppo will do a significant better job than TViX in upscaling SD content like DVD's and Xvid / Divx (much due to the faroudja chip and superior scaler inside) but the same limits apply that OPPO can only handle half the formats Dvico can...

if you don't need the formats OPPO can't handle, go grab it. otherwise, look at the NMT's and TviX... They really aren't that bad in doing this, just not as good...

Thanks..my main motivation for wanting a TVIX or NMT is convenience (love the idea of having a 'video jukebox' vs. piles of discs), but also don't want to 'significantly' compromise PQ, either, for my new 110'' PJ display.

My main use would be ripping SD DVDs (today), and Blu-Ray (future). Download formats aren't as important to me as I don't pull much content from the 'net.

I haven't had a chance to do as much research yet as I'd like to..but wonder..is the TVIX fairly common in dedicated HTs? Or is it more a 'living room' convenience?

Also - how's the MP3 browsing experience? I heard that it's slow and hard to navigate large #s of MP3s?

Thanks for your help!

- B

Oppo will do a significant better job than TViX in upscaling SD content like DVD's and Xvid / Divx (much due to the faroudja chip and superior scaler inside)
We're talking about projectors here and not about your everyday stupid plasma/LCD display. And the better projectors are really good in terms of video processing. Because of that IMHO it's not very important how good the source device is with deinterlacing/scaling. What is much more important is if the source device is able at all to output the video in its purest form - which is 480i60 for DVDs. The Oppos can do that, which is a major factor on why they are so popular around here. I believe neither the NMTs nor TViXs can output 480i60. Which is probably the main reason why they fall short of the Oppo for DVD playback image quality.

if you don't need the formats OPPO can't handle, go grab it. otherwise, look at the NMT's and TviX... They really aren't that bad in doing this, just not as good...
I'm really wondering why neither NMTs nor TViXs support 480i60 output. It shouldn't be that hard to implement and would result in a signifcant image quality improvement - provided you have a good projector.

I am using the Tvix 6500 with a Sanyo PLV Z2000 and 136 dia 2.05 screen in my dedicated theater room. The picture is fantastic! Output is 1080p and my projector loves it.

I use a DVDO iscan hd+ for playing normal dvds, and the picture is as good or somethimes better, depending on the movie, with the Tvix than the scaler.

Definite wow factor having over 800 movies loaded too!

Just my 2 cents, picture quality can be just in the Eye of the beholder.

You are outdated madshi... :-) The A-100 upcoming firmware is having 480p60 on both HDMI and Component which you probably did not know and it plays a hell of a lot more formats and has a lot more options than OPPO for less money... Why would one need to buy a 200$ DVD player with Faroudja chip and such if it is not being used eventually since their HT can do the job equa or better? The start of this thread by the way was comparing TViX vs OppO and HT use was not mentioned... that came later... Anyway... who cares...

I also fail to see why the TViX or whatever unit cannot be set to 720 or 1080p and still have the image enhanced... 480p60 is better but sometimes overrated, don't you think?

Unfortunately, as it seems the newer (and improved) models A-110 and B-110 have no 480p60 on board because of concentration around TV Standards and not PC standards (CEA standards) omitting the VESA standards to be same as DVD/BD players. (Feedback courtesy of Syabas).

PS: The next A-100 release will have 480p60... In a few days this should be released unless serious bugs are found... ?

You are outdated madshi... :-)
No, I'm not. I talked about 480i60 and not about 480p60. These are two totally different things. When using 480p60 output the source device has already done violence to the source material. At least deinterlacing was done, maybe also some scaling (because of overscan). An untouched 480i60 output would be much better.

I also fail to see why the TViX or whatever unit cannot be set to 720 or 1080p and still have the image enhanced... 480p60 is better but sometimes overrated, don't you think?
That depends on the source device. You know, if the display has a higher resolution than 480p then somebody needs to do the upscaling. In the end the device which has the best upscaling quality in the display chain should do this. It can be the display, or the receiver, or the source device or an external video processor. If the display is bad, the TViX may have better upscaling quality. But it depends A LOT on the display. The TViX will lose against a Pioneer Kuro in upscaling quality. It will also lose against virtually all better projectors - by a mile against some. Because of that it would be crucial to have 480i60 output enabled by TViX and NMT. But it seems that TViX and NMT don't care about image quality that much. Having one more feature box checked in their marketing checklist seems to be more important to them.

Unfortunately, as it seems the newer (and improved) models A-110 and B-110 have no 480p60 on board because of concentration around TV Standards and not PC standards (CEA standards) omitting the VESA standards to be same as DVD/BD players. (Feedback courtesy of Syabas).
That's an extremely stupid decision. And it doesn't make any sense, either.

480i60 and 480p60 are the most basic *TV* standards available. PCs are not using such resolutions for ages. If Syabas really wanted to concentrate on TV standards, then 480i60 and 480p60 should be the first they implement!

You know what? Can you recommend to Syabas and TViX to hire a good ISF calibrator? I think that would help a lot in bringing image quality up to speed. If they could get Joe Kane that would be awesome. But probable he'd be too expensive. Any good ISF guy would do the trick, I think. And I can bet with you that the first thing the ISF guy will ask for is a native untouched "pure" 480i60 output mode.

I am using the Tvix 6500 with a Sanyo PLV Z2000 and 136 dia 2.05 screen in my dedicated theater room. The picture is fantastic! Output is 1080p and my projector loves it.

I use a DVDO iscan hd+ for playing normal dvds, and the picture is as good or somethimes better, depending on the movie, with the Tvix than the scaler.
Which DVD player are you using, how do you have it connected to the iScan and to which output mode have you set the DVD player?

I guess the TViX is not that bad with properly flagged DVD content. Things might get difficult if you play DVD content with bad flags, though. Also the iScan HD+ doesn't have the best quality upscaling available (Reon, Realta, Gennum and Lumagen should all beat the iScan). But in theory it should at least be better than the TViX.

Hi

I got the oppo 983, a dvico 6500 and I use a Mitsubishi HC6000 projector.

Both oppo and dvico are useful in my config :
-the oppo has the best possible quality for sd dvd, SACD, DVD Audio
-the dvico for hd contents and MP3 music via my lan.

I LOVE the combination oppo/mitsu. The oppo upscaling work is amazing, wonderful, in every means.

Dvico's picture is less perfect, but very good too.

I guess someone may use only the Dvico for both SD and HD without problems and having a good image. So you can save the money for buying DVD's to burn, it can be some bucks...

Is the difference between good and perfect worth the price of the oppo ? I guess it is over to you to see...

Another point is Audio : the dvico is quite poor on that part, and the oppo offers very good reading of CDs, SACDs and DVD Audio. Are you audiophile too ? Then the oppo is a killer in performance/price ratio.

Regards

You know what? Can you recommend to Syabas and TViX to hire a good ISF calibrator? I think that would help a lot in bringing image quality up to speed. If they could get Joe Kane that would be awesome. But probable he'd be too expensive. Any good ISF guy would do the trick, I think. And I can bet with you that the first thing the ISF guy will ask for is a native untouched "pure" 480i60 output mode.


I've done that and Dvico doesn't care, i have been talking with them loads of times and they don't listen at all.

I have mentioned the customized output resolutions and support of 768p out of the Tvix, i have brought up tons of recommendations but they won't listen.

I have 1080p MKV files with 800p and sometimes 850p because i cropped the black borders out of the bluray movies.

In the Tvix you can't output the resolution of the source which is a BIG drawback which means in my case i output in 720p which means first the Tvix needs to downscale 800p to 720p, then my Crystalio scaler needs to upscale from 720p to 768p.

Why are Dvico so ignorant, there are thousands of users that would love this support.

If the movie is 800p the Tvix shall output 800p, if it's 720p it will output 720p etc etc....

I guess Dvico doesn't understand there are tons of videophiles using their products.

Thx Madshi... Now i'm confused if Syabas will add both 408i60 and p60 but we'll see soon enough. I thought there was something about HDMI not supporting these officially or something. I know the request launched was to offer "native" output of DVD's stored on the hard drive so if they done it rightm 480i60 must be supported...

If DViCo will add these, dunno... They have so many things to fix already...
We'll give it a try anyway... :-)

I would already be happy if the normal resolutions worked more stable... pffff.... Maybe we should join forces and make a serious recommendation to all brands together and whoever delivers will sell the most... As for the special resolutions, supporting any resolution would be great but according to some could trigger issues when the reolsutions are not exactly as they are supposed to be... Don't remember the whole technical stuff, i'm more into "customer" use than pro use...

That should keep them busy listening if we do :-)

I got the oppo 983, a dvico 6500 and I use a Mitsubishi HC6000 projector.

[...]

I LOVE the combination oppo/mitsu. The oppo upscaling work is amazing, wonderful, in every means.
Doesn't the HC6000 have a Reon built in? Shouldn't the Reon have even better upscaling quality compared to the Oppo? Have you tried setting the Oppo to 480i60 output and let the HC6000 do the upsampling work?

I've done that and Dvico doesn't care, i have been talking with them loads of times and they don't listen at all.
:(

I have mentioned the customized output resolutions and support of 768p out of the Tvix, i have brought up tons of recommendations but they won't listen.

I have 1080p MKV files with 800p and sometimes 850p because i cropped the black borders out of the bluray movies.

In the Tvix you can't output the resolution of the source which is a BIG drawback which means in my case i output in 720p which means first the Tvix needs to downscale 800p to 720p, then my Crystalio scaler needs to upscale from 720p to 768p.
I would love to have absolutely native output. But somehow I doubt that we will ever see that. Us guys with external scalers are special and there are not so many of us. I rather doubt that many receivers or displays would understand odd resolutions like somethingx800p. So although I'd love to have the source device output always natively, I accept that it's unlikely we'll ever get such a media player - unless we build it ourselves...

I'd already be happy if they offered native output for the most common formats. That's 480i60 for NTSC DVDs, 576i50 for PAL DVDs, 1080i60 for NTSC broadcasts, 1080i50 for PAL broadcasts and 1080p24 for HD DVD and Blu-Ray content. Now let them output all that natively without doing any violence to the source content and furthermore let them automatically switch between these output formats - and then I'd be mostly satisfied...

Thx Madshi... Now i'm confused if Syabas will add both 408i60 and p60 but we'll see soon enough. I thought there was something about HDMI not supporting these officially or something.
480i60 if output as such would be under the minimum HDMI transfer rate or something like that. However, there is an official solution for that which is called something like "pixel doubling". Basically every pixel is sent twice. That fixes the problem. Most newer displays and projectors understand this format and some DVD players (e.g. Oppo) output it.

I know the request launched was to offer "native" output of DVD's stored on the hard drive so if they done it rightm 480i60 must be supported...
Yes - that's exactly what we want. *Native* output is the key. Without deinterlacing, without scaling, without applying overscan or noise reduction or sharpening or color manipulations. That would be lovely!

I would already be happy if the normal resolutions worked more stable... pffff....
That doesn't sound so good... :(

Maybe we should join forces and make a serious recommendation to all brands together and whoever delivers will sell the most...
Yes, why not? Sounds very good to me! :)

Doesn't the HC6000 have a Reon built in? Shouldn't the Reon have even better upscaling quality compared to the Oppo? Have you tried setting the Oppo to 480i60 output and let the HC6000 do the upsampling work?

Talking only about Video :
You're right about the Reon HQV, and I did the comparison with test patterns. They are very similar, but I've found the Anchor Bay of the oppo a bit better (less moiré and better in fast moving scenes, better accuracy in dark details), so I usually let the oppo do the job. I dont say the Reon is bad, but the oppo is a bit better for me.

In fact Ive bought the HC6000 before the oppo, so I got double upscaling function, but if it were possible, knowing what I know now, I've choosen an HC6000 without uspcaling chip (it seems the HC4600 does that) so saving a few bucks.

To save money and getting a performing system, an HC4600 projector with an NMT or Dvico TviX should be a very good choice, with a good calibration of the source. With a good PC in the house, you can even use the NMT over LAN without any internal hard disk (that's what I do and no stuttering at all, even in full HD). With an achieved firmware, an NMT or TviX may be a real good source.

For Audio : you need a good (SACD and DVD Audio able) CD player if you're audiophile, MP3 sounds manytimes very 'foggy/dusty' (not clear) to my ears.

Regards

Originally Posted by madshi
I'd already be happy if they offered native output for the most common formats. That's 480i60 for NTSC DVDs, 576i50 for PAL DVDs, 1080i60 for NTSC broadcasts, 1080i50 for PAL broadcasts and 1080p24 for HD DVD and Blu-Ray content. Now let them output all that natively without doing any violence to the source content and furthermore let them automatically switch between these output formats - and then I'd be mostly satisfied...


Madshi,

If the Sigma chip outputs 480i60 signal, would it not have to use component color space rather than RGB in order for scalers to negotiate EDID?

Do you know if any of the Blu-Ray players on the market that use the Sigma chip can output DVD at 480i60?

Talking only about Video :
You're right about the Reon HQV, and I did the comparison with test patterns. They are very similar, but I've found the Anchor Bay of the oppo a bit better (less moiré and better in fast moving scenes, better accuracy in dark details), so I usually let the oppo do the job. I dont say the Reon is bad, but the oppo is a bit better for me.
Ah, that makes sense. I was not aware of that the Oppo had an Anchor Bay chip inside.

If the Sigma chip outputs 480i60 signal, would it not have to use component color space rather than RGB in order for scalers to negotiate EDID?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDID

As far as I can see the color space is not specified per resolution in the EDID, but it's specified as a general capability of the monitor/display. So whether 480i60 is supported or not should have nothing to do with RGB vs YCbCr.

Of course YCbCr output would be preferred because that's the way the movies are stored on the disc. If the media player outputs RGB, that's strictly spoken not "native output", anymore, cause the media player would already do YCbCr -> RGB conversion, which is a lossy process.

Do you know if any of the Blu-Ray players on the market that use the Sigma chip can output DVD at 480i60?
I don't know. I've never been interested in Blu-Ray standalone players because I have both HD DVDs and Blu-Rays and I like to remux them and change/add audio tracks. That's why I'm interested in media players like the TViXs and NMTs...