Background

The Squeezebox and I go back a ways. Back in aught-four, I bought the original Squeezebox (reviewed here (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=403013)), and instantly fell in love with it. In aught-five, I considered switching it out for a Roku SoundBridge (review here (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=553516)), but ended up getting a Squeezebox 2 (review (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=555364)) instead.

When you've used a product -- especially a product in a fast-evolving field like this one has been -- for four years, you start to notice a few patterns. Ones that particularly stick out to me are:

1. Proprietary stuff just doesn't last. When I first bought the Squeezebox, there were all sorts of competitors out there with proprietary platforms; most of them are out of the business entirely, and all of those products are basically paperweights, because so much has changed out from underneath them. Even the one proprietary system that I thought was going to take off and become a de facto standard -- Microsoft's PlaysForSure -- got kicked off to the side of the road when Microsoft decided to take up with that Zune stuff.

Meanwhile, the open source software behind the Squeezebox is still going strong, and the product is still relevant all these years later.

2. Slim Devices, and now Logitech, have been amazing about support. When I bought that first Squeezebox in 2004, it was a character-mode display running on SlimServer 5.2. When they upgraded the display to a graphical mode (the Squeezebox G), they sold a cheap upgrade kit to existing Squeezebox users, and my SB1 has that in it. But more importantly, they've kept evolving their server software (now called SqueezeCenter, and on version 7.1), and it has capabilities that I never dreamt of back in those days -- Pandora, last.fm, streaming Rhapsody (at 192kbps, no less!) -- and a vastly better UI.

There aren't a lot of companies that will provide significant, meaningful upgrades to owners of five year old hardware for free. To an extent, this is tied in to the open source model that the Squeezebox is built around, but it's still worth noting: To the extent that hardware permits, every advance they make gets rolled out to all their old customers. That's not very common.

Now the corollary to that is, if the folks at Logitech want to sell new hardware to someone who already owns a Squeezebox, they need to do something awfully impressive to get them to upgrade. I skipped the Squeezebox 3 entirely, for instance, because most of the advances with that were in software, and I got them for free on my Squeezebox 2.

The Duet

Enter the Duet, with its fancy-dancy iPod/Sonos-style remote.

I was skeptical at first. I figured that Slim was just responding to the good press the Sonos stuff had gotten, or that they were trying something gimmicky to get their existing customers to buy a new unit. But, well, I'm a sucker for fancy tech and I had some Amazon gift certificates lying around, so I ordered one up anyway.

The Receiver unit itself is pretty uninteresting -- it's more or less the guts of an SB2/SB3 without the big VFD display; it communicates with the world only through a colored LED on the front. Sound quality through digital is identical; some people say it'll be slightly worse through the analog (it has a different DAC), but I doubt they'd be able to pick out in a blind test.

("Uninteresting" that is, if you're already familiar with the SB2/SB3. Otherwise, it's a fascinating piece of hardware that interacts with SqueezeCenter to allow you to play back your music in any format (transcoded on the server if needed to WAV, FLAC, Ogg, WMA, or MP3, all of which it handles natively) from local storage or from a variety of network services including Pandora, last.fm, and Rhapsody.)

The interesting part of the Duet is the Controller, which looks like a cross between a remote control and an iPod, but is in actual fact a fancy Linux computer. The Controller really is like an elephant, and most people who describe it are one of the blind men describing a single aspect of it. So let's try to take it from various angles:

As a remote control: It's got a big, high-res (240x320), colorful display, hard buttons for volume and playback controls, and then a scrollwheel -- a real scrollwheel, like they used to have on the first-gen iPods, not one of those non-tactical touchpad pseudo-scrollwheels. It's worthless as a general purpose remote -- you can't use it for your Tivo sensibly -- but it's perfectly optimized for the Squeezebox.

As an iPod-style music player: It works like an iPod, more or less, except that it can browse all the music on your computer (I've got a few hundred gigabytes of FLAC files, so even big iPods don't hold all my music), plus it can browse internet radio stations and internet music services like Rhapsody. The Rhapsody integration is nearly magical: I can search for music I don’t own from my bed without a computer, and then play it without ever even downloading it. It's the celestial jukebox made real. It's worth noting too that Squeezeboxes have always had great UI, and the Controller carries on the tradition. Lots of nice little touches and customizations that make it a pleasure, rather than a chore, to use.

As a home automation controller: The Controller can control every Squeezebox in your system. Your Receiver, obviously, but any SB2s or SB1s you may have lying around, any Squeezebox Booms that you've somehow obtained early, even SoftSqueeze (soon to become the more interesting SqueezePlayer, apparently) on the computer. And you can sync them all up or have them play different things, which means you can sit in one room and orchestrate your entire house. Whole-house automation stuff has typically been a multi-thousand-dollar proposition, and Sonos is still priced that way, but you can put together a Squeezebox solution for pennies, comparatively speaking.

As a hardware platform: The Controller really is a piece of general-purpose hardware, running an open source software stack on it, and what's really interesting is that the hardware is being badly underutilized at the moment. Not only do you have the nice controls and big display, you also have three accelerometers (like in the Wiimote), which are you only used now to turn on the light when it moves. You have a speaker, which is used right now just for sound effects. You have a headphone jack, which isn't used at all. You have an IR emitter. You have an SD card slot. The hardware ingredients are there, in short, to turn this into a lot more than it is today. And while I never recommend buying things on potential, Slim/Logitech's track record is such that you can pretty much bet on the Controller being able to do more in a few years than it can do today. (It's hard not to notice that all the ingredients are there to turn it into a Wifi-enabled portable MP3 player, with 16GB of SDHC storage and the ability to hook up to SqueezeNetwork whenever you're in a hotspot.)

The upshot, at any rate, is that the Controller has amazing potential for whole house audio and future utilization -- but even using it just as a simple remote, it's great. The Squeezebox has always had a stellar UI for a device, but fundamentally, being able to see a whole list of items as you can on the Duet is going to provide more feedback than the single-item UI of the Squeezebox Classic's VFD front panel display. And so it is.

For my part, I have the Duet as my bedside system, feeding a HeadRoom MicroDAC/MicroAmp into Sennheiser HD650 headphones, and it's nearly perfect for the purpose. I can hold the Controller in bed and not have to twist my head to look at a display on my nightstand, like using an iPod. Yet at the same time I have complete access to all my music (and any music I might want to stream from Rhapsody) and top-notch sound quality, neither of which I can get from an iPod. And if I want to use my SB2 on the main stereo system, or the SB1 in the basement, I can just wander around with the Controller and switch which player it's controlling.

If you listen to music, you need a digital music streamer. If you want a digital music streamer, you want a Squeezebox. And if you want a Squeezebox, you want a Duet. Highly recommended.

An interesting review, but I have some comments based on my own Duet ownership experiences.

My main comment would be that, if they ever do enable the controller's on board DAC and headphone port, the battery is unlikely to last the length of a single album - especially if streaming over wifi.

Additionally, the SD card would obviously allow playback of some locally stored music, but getting that SD card in/out requires the battery to be removed and the whole thing to be rebooted. Not ideal.

The scroll wheel may well be like a first-gen iPod but it's sensitivity has a lot to be desired. For example, one full revolution clockwise may scroll down through 5 artists and one revolution counter-clockwise would only go up 3 artists. This unpredictable sensitivity makes it quite hard to navigate.

Additionally, as it physically rotates, it pivots on a axis - kind of like a spinning top. Mine wobbles a bit like a spinning top too and tips over slightly when i press my finger on it. This makes turning the thing through several rotations in a row feel a bit odd and sort of jerky.

I think to claim the controller "iPod/Sonos-style" is an insult to both Apple and Sonos, neither of which would create a product of such low build quality. I'm talking about the Duet's creaky battery cover, ability to attract greasy fingerprints and seconds and it's display that you can't see at all in bright daylight, making it useless outdoors. The only thing this remote really has in common with Sonos is that they both have buttons and a screen and both are used to control a music system.

Negatives aside, though, the receiver is a faiyl good piece of kit. Not as visually appealing as the SB3 in many respects but considerably cheaper too - shown by it's thinner plastics and poorer wireless reception. It represents excellent value to the potential SB3 buyer who doesn't need an on-board display and wants to save a few quid.

Finally, the SqueezeCenter software is very good and it's free. You don't need to buy Squeezebox to use it and it will happy act as a backend to other music players like Winamp or even Sonos if you so desire (although it doesn't add much functionality to the latter). It's a fairly solid piece of software, although a little heavy on hardware requirements. It runs unacceptably slow on my Infrant ReadyNAS, but just fine on any fairly recent 1GHz+ PC. Once running and the long music indexing task is complete it's been very stable in my experience though, just a shame that one needs to leave a PC on 24/7 in order to listen to their own music - although the more usable alternatives raise the budget massively.

Excellent review mkozlows, and you highlight several several important points. Proprietary is bad, as anyone that has IT experience can attest. Compatability with previous hardware generations protects customer investment and the benefit is a loyal customer base. I'm looking forward to the SB Boom, should be shipping soon.

My main comment would be that, if they ever do enable the controller's on board DAC and headphone port, the battery is unlikely to last the length of a single album - especially if streaming over wifi.

Yeah, that'd be a potential problem, but I don't know what they can eke out of that battery. (It's not something I see myself using, honestly, it's just something that sort of stands out as a possibility.)

The scroll wheel may well be like a first-gen iPod but it's sensitivity has a lot to be desired. For example, one full revolution clockwise may scroll down through 5 artists and one revolution counter-clockwise would only go up 3 artists. This unpredictable sensitivity makes it quite hard to navigate.

Well, you understand that it's velocity-sensitive, right? That spinning it quickly will make it go faster than spinning it slowly?

Additionally, as it physically rotates, it pivots on a axis - kind of like a spinning top. Mine wobbles a bit like a spinning top too and tips over slightly when i press my finger on it. This makes turning the thing through several rotations in a row feel a bit odd and sort of jerky.

I haven't noticed that with mine.

I think to claim the controller "iPod/Sonos-style" is an insult to both Apple and Sonos, neither of which would create a product of such low build quality. I'm talking about the Duet's creaky battery cover, ability to attract greasy fingerprints and seconds and it's display that you can't see at all in bright daylight, making it useless outdoors.

Again, that doesn't match my experience. The battery cover is something I've literally never noticed; the screen is great (though I don't use it outside, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were washed out in sunlight -- every other device I have is hard to read in direct sun, so); and yes, it attracts fingerprints, but if you're going to seriously claim that iPods don't, you're insane. Any shiny gloss piece of plastic that you hold will get fingerprints.

Well, you understand that it's velocity-sensitive, right? That spinning it quickly will make it go faster than spinning it slowly?

On mouse drivers they generally call it acceleration, but applying the same force in the opposite direction generally means ending up where you started. I've never managed to achieve this on the SB Controller. Just a little niggle.


yes, it attracts fingerprints, but if you're going to seriously claim that iPods don't, you're insane. Any shiny gloss piece of plastic that you hold will get fingerprints.

My iPod is a stainless steel mini, never seen one finger print in 3 years :)

I agree with mkozlows comments about the scroll wheel. Velocity sensitive controls are great when they are done right, but the Squeezebox wheel does not seemd to have a good algorithm. It starts slow, then speeds up suddenly, and the large letters that appear when you go fast do not keep up with the starting letter of the title. The end result is you have to go back and forwards home in on your selection. Is a shame really, a few hours tweaking the software would do wonders for the functionality.

I agree with mkozlows comments about the scroll wheel. Velocity sensitive controls are great when they are done right, but the Squeezebox wheel does not seemd to have a good algorithm. It starts slow, then speeds up suddenly, and the large letters that appear when you go fast do not keep up with the starting letter of the title. The end result is you have to go back and forwards home in on your selection. Is a shame really, a few hours tweaking the software would do wonders for the functionality.


So you actually agree with me then? It's a bit fiddly?

It's a fairly solid piece of software, although a little heavy on hardware requirements. It runs unacceptably slow on my Infrant ReadyNAS...
Probably as a good a place as any, but do they actually have plans to come out with a lesser requirement for software? Or since it's open source game for someone else to come out with?

Reason is, reading I did over at the forums is since I have an HP Mediavault, it's pretty much a no go for me.

Probably as a good a place as any, but do they actually have plans to come out with a lesser requirement for software? Or since it's open source game for someone else to come out with?

Reason is, reading I did over at the forums is since I have an HP Mediavault, it's pretty much a no go for me.

Since the release of SqueezeCenter (7.x) it has only got heavier. You could use the older SlimServer software, but it doesn't support the new hardware.

I don't know of a plan for a light version. Part of the difficulty is the lack of codec support in the device firmware, so many codecs have to be transcoded by the server to a supported codec before playback.

I don't know of a plan for a light version. Part of the difficulty is the lack of codec support in the device firmware, so many codecs have to be transcoded by the server to a supported codec before playback.

Wait, what? It natively supports MP3, FLAC, Ogg, WMA, and PCM. Unless you've ripped everything with iTunes, you're almost certain to be fine (and if you have, you can easily enough convert it with dbPowerAmp or something).

You sound like you have some sort of grudge, frankly.

The Duet transcodes Apple Lossless on the fly, and it's seamless to the user. You would never know it doesn't handle Apple Lossless natively. It's a non-issue.

Wait, what? It natively supports MP3, FLAC, Ogg, WMA, and PCM. Unless you've ripped everything with iTunes, you're almost certain to be fine (and if you have, you can easily enough convert it with dbPowerAmp or something).

You sound like you have some sort of grudge, frankly.

There are 3 lossless compressed codecs. The SB firmware only supports one of them - FLAC.

If you use ALAC or WMAL you have to transcode. To iPod users, ALAC is the only natively supported lossless codec. Likewise for users of Windows Media products.

No grudge, I'm just prepared to admit weaknesses in the product to potential owners.

The Duet transcodes Apple Lossless on the fly, and it's seamless to the user. You would never know it doesn't handle Apple Lossless natively. It's a non-issue.

The Duet doesn't transcode anything on the fly. The Duet is actually just the name of a bundle of 2 products, the SqueezeBox Receiver (SBR) and SqueezeBox Controller (SBC). Neither of them transcode anything on the fly either.

The only thing that transcodes is the SqueezeCenter server software. It's relatively seamless on powerful hardware but on my NAS it's very slow. We're talking maybe 2-3secs before playback commences, compared to near instant for SqueezeBox native codecs like mp3 or FLAC. Hence the reason for my comment above.

A 2-3secs wait when skipping tracks just isn't acceptable to me.

There are 3 lossless compressed codecs. The SB firmware only supports one of them - FLAC.

If you use ALAC or WMAL you have to transcode. To iPod users, ALAC is the only natively supported lossless codec. Likewise for users of Windows Media products.

No grudge, I'm just prepared to admit weaknesses in the product to potential owners.

Okay, except weakness relative to what? ALAC and WMAL are essentially proprietary -- there's not a single product not made by Apple that handles ALAC, nor a single product not running a Microsoft OS that handles WMAL.

About the only format it actually could handle natively but doesn't is AAC. And given how well the transcoding works (if your machine can play it back in real time, it can transcode in real time with no problem), that's such a non-issue.

EDIT: Okay, so I just looked at your user profile and either you work for Sonos or you're just a very, very dedicated fanboy. I don't think you're discussing this in good faith.

EDIT FURTHER: And you know, I'm kinda cheesed off now. Once I realized that you're not a good faith actor and re-read your messages in this thread in their proper context, I feel dirty. All sly little insinuations and innuendos -- first there's "many codecs" it doesn't support natively, and when it turns out that's just the two ultra-proprietary ones you recast to "only supporting one of three lossless codecs," and you make a big fuss about how heavyweight the server is by referring to transcoding one of these two proprietary formats on the only machine underpowered enough to actually have difficulty doing this.

And you did it subtly enough that I didn't even realize at first, and was talking to you like you were a real person who actually had a real opinion, rather than someone whose entire posting history on AVS consists of quiet little putdowns of the Squeezebox and paeans to Sonos. You are corrupting discourse, and that bothers me kind of a lot.

Background

As a home automation controller: The Controller can control every Squeezebox in your system. Your Receiver, obviously, but any SB2s or SB1s you may have lying around, any Squeezebox Booms that you've somehow obtained early, even SoftSqueeze (soon to become the more interesting SqueezePlayer, apparently) on the computer. And you can sync them all up or have them play different things, which means you can sit in one room and orchestrate your entire house. Whole-house automation stuff has typically been a multi-thousand-dollar proposition, and Sonos is still priced that way, but you can put together a Squeezebox solution for pennies, comparatively speaking.

Home Automation?? So now its a Crestron system?? :rolleyes:
This isn't home automation. It isn't even a universal remote. It controls one company's set of products.

Distributed Audio yeah... well sort of... it doesn't accept outside inputs or pass control on to other products so not really but thats alot closer to what it is. I'm not saying its a bad product. It is actually a great product but calling it Home Automation and comparing its limited functionality to multi thousand dollar Home Automation systems is just silly. Not taking sides here Sonos is not Home Automation either. It is limited Dist audio. At least try to stay in the realm of reality.

Okay, except weakness relative to what? ALAC and WMAL are essentially proprietary -- there's not a single product not made by Apple that handles ALAC, nor a single product not running a Microsoft OS that handles WMAL.


You are correct about WMAL support, it's very limited.

ALAC support is very widespread though, due to the open decoders that are available and indeed used within the SqueezeCenter software to transcode. Other products, such as Sonos now you mention it, incorporate native decoding for this codec in the firmware.


About the only format it actually could handle natively but doesn't is AAC. And given how well the transcoding works (if your machine can play it back in real time, it can transcode in real time with no problem), that's such a non-issue.


The iPod is the biggest digital music player in the world. As a result, iTunes is the biggest music manager in the world. Out of the box, it rips music in AAC. If the iTunes user is knowledgable enough to want to change their ripping codec to a compressed lossless format, they would choose Apple Lossless.

Neither of these codecs are supported natively by SqueezeBox but are by other products. They need to be transcoded by the SqueezeCenter server.


EDIT: Okay, so I just looked at your user profile and either you work for Sonos or you're just a very, very dedicated fanboy. I don't think you're discussing this in good faith.


It is fairly well know that I own products from Apple, SqueezeBox and Sonos. This thread is about Squeezebox and, as an owner, I'm in a good position to highlight weaknesses I have found. Some of these obviously come from comparing to other products I own.


EDIT FURTHER: And you know, I'm kinda cheesed off now. Once I realized that you're not a good faith actor and re-read your messages in this thread in their proper context, I feel dirty. All sly little insinuations and innuendos -- first there's "many codecs" it doesn't support natively, and when it turns out that's just the two ultra-proprietary ones you recast to "only supporting one of three lossless codecs," and you make a big fuss about how heavyweight the server is by referring to transcoding one of these two proprietary formats on the only machine underpowered enough to actually have difficulty doing this.


There really is no need to get personal here. For many potential buyers, knowing that it may not run in an acceptable way on their NAS is valuable information. As support for Squeezebox is built into my Infrant ReadyNAS out of the box, I naturally never considered I might have any difficulties using this as a server for my Duet products. But, as an iPod owner (there's just a few of those in the world) I ripped my music using the Apple Lossless codec which just doesn't work well on the Infrant based server. Which requires me to run an additional windows based server 24hrs a day in these days of high energy costs.



And you did it subtly enough that I didn't even realize at first, and was talking to you like you were a real person who actually had a real opinion, rather than someone whose entire posting history on AVS consists of quiet little putdowns of the Squeezebox and paeans to Sonos. You are corrupting discourse, and that bothers me kind of a lot.

This isn't an SB vs. Sonos thread, we already have one of those and I think we should stay on topic. You posted a good informative review and I, as a Duet owner, highlighted some of the quirks of ownership I have experienced. The end result is some good information for potential Duet buyers. Nothing to do with Sonos at all. I even chose to ignore the Sonos comments in your original review.

It is fairly well know that I own products from Apple, SqueezeBox and Sonos. This thread is about Squeezebox and, as an owner, I'm in a good position to highlight weaknesses I have found. Some of these obviously come from comparing to other products I own.



jaffa - I would suggest you send your duet back to Logitech under RMA if your really interested in giving it a fair shake. You post negatives regarding the equipment that many people just don't have. There have been reports about a bad batch of controllers going out, so I am thinking maybe you have one of those.

jaffa - I would suggest you send your duet back to Logitech under RMA if your really interested in giving it a fair shake. You post negatives regarding the equipment that many people just don't have. There have been reports about a bad batch of controllers going out, so I am thinking maybe you have one of those.

Any particular claim I've made that you feel other owners aren't experiencing?

The alleged "bad controllers" won't cause playback on the receiver to break up.

I've tried 3 different wireless access points (buffalo, d-link, cisco) which all function perfectly for other wireless devices but not with Squeezebox.

I've got 4 different SqueezeCentre installs - Infrant Readynas, RipServer, Windows XP client and Windows 2003 server. Some handle the transcoding well, others don't.

I follow the Slim forums daily and could link to numerous people with similar issues to myself. Even very satisfied owners often claim to "not have many issues", they're still acknowledging that they do get problems from time to time.

I'm giving the Duet a very fair comparison. I got openly slated some time back when I posted negative reviews about the pre-release kit I had been exposed to. This was apparently unfair as it wasn't the proper retail version. So I went out and got the retail version and it still had the same problems. I couldn't be fairer.

I don't doubt that their are owners out there who are satisfied with their purchase and feel it represents good value for money. Likewise there are many happy car owners out there in vehicles that they bought cheap to just get them from A to B - which they do, most of the time.

My point is that if you want something that is completely solid and reliable then maybe Squeezebox isn't the best option. It certainly isn't for me.

Any particular claim I've made that you feel other owners aren't experiencing?



Mine wobbles a bit like a spinning top too and tips over slightly when i press my finger on it. This makes turning the thing through several rotations in a row feel a bit odd and sort of jerky.

I think to claim the controller "iPod/Sonos-style" is an insult to both Apple and Sonos, neither of which would create a product of such low build quality. I'm talking about the Duet's creaky battery cover, ability to attract greasy fingerprints and seconds and it's display that you can't see at all in bright daylight, making it useless outdoors. The only thing this remote really has in common with Sonos is that they both have buttons and a screen and both are used to control a music system.


Here are some that I have had no issue whatsoever with and neither has the op. There are many more that you have posted in other threads as well, but I don't have time to dig out all of them.

The OP already confirmed the fingerprint issue.

yes, it attracts fingerprints, but if you're going to seriously claim that iPods don't, you're insane. Any shiny gloss piece of plastic that you hold will get fingerprints.


Here's the creaky battery cover complaint:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45758

You will see the director of product marketing suggested the use of Vaseline :eek:

Here's some discussion about the screen in bright daylight:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49867

And here's the first thread I found about the scroll wheel oddities.

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=48356

The OP already confirmed the fingerprint issue.


Here's the creaky battery cover complaint:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45758

You will see the director of product marketing suggested the use of Vaseline :eek:

Here's some discussion about the screen in bright daylight:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49867

And here's the first thread I found about the scroll wheel oddities.

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=48356

I said the majority of people aren't having your issues and I think your threads proved my point perfectly. Somehow you just managed to hit the worse produced duet out there that has every issue that has had one person on the slim forums has complain about. I would RMA it.

I said the majority of people aren't having your issues and I think your threads proved my point perfectly. Somehow you just managed to hit the worse produced duet out there that has every issue that has had one person on the slim forums has complain about. I would RMA it.

Sadly, due to the favourable exchange rate and lack of UK stock at launch, I grey imported from the US. Returning it to the store isn't really an option.

I certainly don't have every issue reported on those forums though, I would have smashed the thing to pieces if I did.

Sadly, due to the favourable exchange rate and lack of UK stock at launch, I grey imported from the US. Returning it to the store isn't really an option.

I certainly don't have every issue reported on those forums though, I would have smashed the thing to pieces if I did.

I agree that sucks, but at the same time I hope you understand that when your chief complaints are shared by less than a small handful of people its really not fair for you to keep touting them as system flaws. I will wholeheartedly agree that from my reading in the slim forums logitech may have a QC issue, but its not fair to use a unit that they would gladly take back as a return as your basis for comparison. That would be like me going and buying a broken competitor unit off of Ebay and then posting that in my experience their hardware sucks.

I agree that sucks, but at the same time I hope you understand that when your chief complaints are shared by less than a small handful of people its really not fair for you to keep touting them as system flaws. I will wholeheartedly agree that from my reading in the slim forums logitech may have a QC issue, but its not fair to use a unit that they would gladly take back as a return as your basis for comparison. That would be like me going and buying a broken competitor unit off of Ebay and then posting that in my experience their hardware sucks.

1) It isn't the only flawed unit I have seen. Indeed, I only got this retail unit to confirm that the problems I experienced weren't related to pre-release product.

2) Most of problems are not with hardware, it's a software issue. It improved from 7.0.0 to 7.0.1 which shows that the 7.0.0 was terribly buggy.

3) We're talking a lot more than a handful of people. Take this thread "Squeeze Controller Losing Network Connection" - http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45031&highlight=controller+connectivity - 23,000 views and over 250 replies.

A simple search on http://forums.slimdevices.com for "controller connection problems" shows just how widespread the connectivity issues are. Most of the view have literally thousands of reads as people desperately look for a solution to their problems. Considerably more than a handful of people.

Whilst I would gladly take the unit back - it would be for a refund, not a replacement. I have every confidence the unit works as well as it can, hundreds of other owners share my experiences, it's simply not good enough to meet my standards.

1) It isn't the only flawed unit I have seen. Indeed, I only got this retail unit to confirm that the problems I experienced weren't related to pre-release product.

2) Most of problems are not with hardware, it's a software issue. It improved from 7.0.0 to 7.0.1 which shows that the 7.0.0 was terribly buggy.

3) We're talking a lot more than a handful of people. Take this thread "Squeeze Controller Losing Network Connection" - http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45031&highlight=controller+connectivity - 23,000 views and over 250 replies.

A simple search on http://forums.slimdevices.com for "controller connection problems" shows just how widespread the connectivity issues are. Most of the view have literally thousands of reads as people desperately look for a solution to their problems. Considerably more than a handful of people.

Whilst I would gladly take the unit back - it would be for a refund, not a replacement. I have every confidence the unit works as well as it can, hundreds of other owners share my experiences, it's simply not good enough to meet my standards.

And they are on 7.1 now for the software, with 7.2 due out soon...

The controller connection problem seems more widespread, but we weren't talking about that now were we, and they RMA all of them that people have issues. They are not functioning properly (hence my earlier comment about QC)

I still stand by my assertion. You can say what you want, but you haven't and you won't give the Duet a fair shake - You have a faulty unit and, if your running 7.01, you have ancient software. IMO you do not have a valid data point to be using your experience with the Duet and playing it off like every user will have the same issues.

I am very happy with my Squeezebox Duet. I have had none of the problems described in this thread. My controller is high quality construction, the scroll wheel is smooth in operation, even though (as I mentioned before) the velcocity algorithm needs improvement. The battery door does not squeak.

Aside from a few minor niggles, this is a great product. Before I bought this, I would have to search my way through boxes of CDs to find what I wanted to play, (I have over 600 CDs and a lousy filing system). Now any CD in my collection can be played with a scroll and a couple of clicks. I stored my collection as high bit rate mp3s (so I could play them on my portable mp3 player), the sound is great, just as good as the original CD.

The other delight with the squeezebox is internet radio. There is a mindboggling selection from all over the world. Its great to listen to UK radio stations (I am an expat living in the US).

I wrote this to counteract the negative comments. There are some things i would like to see improved, but having used the sqeezebox for about 6 months, I could not go back to CDs and local radio stations.

Okay, except weakness relative to what? ALAC and WMAL are essentially proprietary -- there's not a single product not made by Apple that handles ALAC, nor a single product not running a Microsoft OS that handles WMAL.

About the only format it actually could handle natively but doesn't is AAC. And given how well the transcoding works (if your machine can play it back in real time, it can transcode in real time with no problem), that's such a non-issue.


I have to go with jaffacake on this one, Sonos and even my old Roku units have ALAC (it also has AAC) natively and transcoding does suck (ie is way slower) on most NAS out there for non-native codecs. Slimserver is a nice piece of software, but it is a resource whore (even if it does a hell of a lot of things) ...

The OP may have overlooked the previous but it is an important aspect of media players today.

Yeah, that'd be a potential problem, but I don't know what they can eke out of that battery. (It's not something I see myself using, honestly, it's just something that sort of stands out as a possibility.)


I did some checking because I was actually kind of excited at the possibility of using my controller with my headphones while mowing the lawn...yeah, geeky I know, but why not.

The feature is slated for November this year and the controller has a big battery, so I think it might actually work well (1250mah compared to 500mah for the IPOD touch) Only time will tell for sure though.

Sonos and even my old Roku units have ALAC (it also has AAC) natively and transcoding does suck (ie is way slower) on most NAS out there for non-native codecs. Slimserver is a nice piece of software, but it is a resource whore (even if it does a hell of a lot of things) ...

You're right about ALAC support on Sonos (though I'm not sure about Roku -- are you talking about the Soundbridge? Because it looks from a quick google like that was transcoded serverside with their "Firefly" server), which surprises the heck out of me, given the undocumented and proprietary nature of the format. (Anyone know if they're doing it with official Apple-licensed code, or if they're using that reverse-engineered open source thing? I'd guess the former, if they're advertising it, but everything I've read says that Apple doesn't license out ALAC.)

Distributed Audio yeah... well sort of... it doesn't accept outside inputs or pass control on to other products so not really but thats alot closer to what it is. I'm not saying its a bad product. It is actually a great product but calling it Home Automation and comparing its limited functionality to multi thousand dollar Home Automation systems is just silly. Not taking sides here Sonos is not Home Automation either. It is limited Dist audio. At least try to stay in the realm of reality.

Perhaps I'm using the wrong term, but what I meant was something to let you play and remotely control various zones of music throughout the house. "Distributed audio," then.

And they are on 7.1 now for the software, with 7.2 due out soon...

The controller connection problem seems more widespread, but we weren't talking about that now were we, and they RMA all of them that people have issues. They are not functioning properly (hence my earlier comment about QC)

I still stand by my assertion. You can say what you want, but you haven't and you won't give the Duet a fair shake - You have a faulty unit and, if your running 7.01, you have ancient software. IMO you do not have a valid data point to be using your experience with the Duet and playing it off like every user will have the same issues.

Man, you're in absolute dreamland.

7.1 was released LESS THAN 3 WEEKS AGO. And you call the previous software ancient? We're talking a product that has been on the market for less than 6mths and has had 2 software upgrades yet still doesn't work like it should have done on day one.

If you've run out of constructive arguments, I really can't be bothered with you any more. Live there in your "there's nothing wrong with this product dreamland", I'm done.

I can't offer any more value to this thread. I've made potential buyers aware of what they may get as a result of their buying it and so, when their music stops playing in the middle of a dinner party, they can sit their happy as they made their purchase in the knowledge it would happen and they got what they paid for.

I can't offer any more value to this thread. I've made potential buyers aware of what they may get as a result of their buying it and so, when their music stops playing in the middle of a dinner party, they can sit their happy as they made their purchase in the knowledge it would happen and they got what they paid for.

Woo hoo, end of the world! My music stopped playing, I'm so embarrassed! My music plays just fine, don't be such a freaking drama queen!

You're right about ALAC support on Sonos (though I'm not sure about Roku -- are you talking about the Soundbridge? Because it looks from a quick google like that was transcoded serverside with their "Firefly" server), which surprises the heck out of me, given the undocumented and proprietary nature of the format. (Anyone know if they're doing it with official Apple-licensed code, or if they're using that reverse-engineered open source thing? I'd guess the former, if they're advertising it, but everything I've read says that Apple doesn't license out ALAC.)

They are legit, the Firefly transcoding is for FLAC and OGG, not ALAC. They have native WMA, AAC*, ALAC, MP3, WAV, and AIFF. Roku is one (I think only in the 3rd party market) company that has a DAAP license to stream iTunes directly ...

The Duet doesn't transcode anything on the fly. The Duet is actually just the name of a bundle of 2 products, the SqueezeBox Receiver (SBR) and SqueezeBox Controller (SBC). Neither of them transcode anything on the fly either.


OK, I see where you are coming from, and I get the distinction with the nomenclature, but frankly your correction in this instance seems more like semantics than anything else. You knew what I meant.


The only thing that transcodes is the SqueezeCenter server software. It's relatively seamless on powerful hardware but on my NAS it's very slow. We're talking maybe 2-3secs before playback commences, compared to near instant for SqueezeBox native codecs like mp3 or FLAC. Hence the reason for my comment above.

A 2-3secs wait when skipping tracks just isn't acceptable to me.

Your explanation about older or slower hardware's possibly having difficulty achieving truly seamless transcoding and playback is understood, and it's a good point. Frankly, it sounds like a hardware issue on your server end, not a defect or legitimate gripe about the Duet. My playback is indeed seamless.

Although it's good to discuss potential problems, especially for potential buyers who might be considering the Duet, your complaints and observations about the Duet come across as bitter and nitpicking.

Is the Duet perfect? Of course not. No one should expect it or similar products to be perfect. There is no perfect A/V gear. Most of us enjoy marveling at the cool technology that allows us to get things like high quality streaming audio over a simple device like the Duet, however, and I don't think it's fair to cast the product as one riddled with flaws and defects. It's not. It's a great little device. Don't expect perfection from it or any other consumer electronics device. Your life will be a lot easier and a lot less stressful if you relax and accept that perfection is unattainable and a foolish goal. Enjoy your purchases, or exchange or return them. Don't bash terrific products for insignificant issues you have with them personally. That's not cool.

I still stand by my assertion. You can say what you want, but you haven't and you won't give the Duet a fair shake - You have a faulty unit and, if your running 7.01, you have ancient software. IMO you do not have a valid data point to be using your experience with the Duet and playing it off like every user will have the same issues.
The Duet is a most remarkable accomplishment once you get your home wireless system correctly set up, download the owners manual and read it and call tech support for several important theory of operation questions.

I ended up junking my $179 three year old Linksys SRX400 MIMO wireless router and purchased a new BestBuy $49 Linksys WRT54G2 basic G 54MHz router. This new basic model works much better even though the measured and Duet displayed signal strength was identical. Then I moved the router (and the Ethernet cables in the basement) so that there is only one wall separating the wireless router and the receiver.

It is fantastic to be able to easily, naturally and conveniently scroll in a dark room between 28,000 local FLAC encoded songs and the best sound quality 128Kbps radio stations located throughout the world. The wireless SQ is great! I upgraded to a $15 Hosa 12V 2A supply for improved SQ.

For those who are having setup issues buy the $49 Linksys Router and place it next to the controller and your computer. Put everything in the same room and then call tech support.

Its extremely important is to understand the three different types of setup for the receiver and the hand held controller: receiver and controller wireless (best SQ) , bridged and hybrid as explained in the owners manual. Do this instead than reading the mostly crap posts here. Call Slimdevices tech support to be walked through the setup once.

Understand what the slow and fast flashing red light on the receiver means. Read some of this in the appendix of the owners manual. Otherwise you will never be able to figure out what the hell is going on.

I wish the plastic battery cover case were thicker as it squeaks. Life's still a bitch? :)

Although it's good to discuss potential problems, especially for potential buyers who might be considering the Duet, your complaints and observations about the Duet come across as bitter and nitpicking.

Yeah, typical... you don't like what he said so you dismiss it as "bitter and nitpicking". Looking at his original post I see nothing which I wouldn't expect to see in a good magazine review. It's only because some squeezebox fanboys got worked up about him daring to suggest it wasn't the most perfect thing on God's earth, and challenged him on his statements that he has been forced to explain himself. In every case he has come up with a perfectly good explanation for his comments. So he's telling the truth but you still want to brand him as having a grudge? When someone gets this defensive about their favorite product I have to wonder what they are trying to hide.

In every case he has come up with a perfectly good explanation for his comments.

Yeah, he has a unit that would be taken back by Logitech, but he did a grey import so he is stuck with it. That is a perfect explanation.

Yeah, typical... you don't like what he said so you dismiss it as "bitter and nitpicking". Looking at his original post I see nothing which I wouldn't expect to see in a good magazine review. It's only because some squeezebox fanboys got worked up about him daring to suggest it wasn't the most perfect thing on God's earth, and challenged him on his statements that he has been forced to explain himself. In every case he has come up with a perfectly good explanation for his comments. So he's telling the truth but you still want to brand him as having a grudge? When someone gets this defensive about their favorite product I have to wonder what they are trying to hide.

That woiuld describe your very first post on this forum. :rolleyes:



Yes, and we've seen a ton of it on this thread, from you!

You're so full of crap. And you've got the cheek to come on here, spout half-truths, and claim Sonos are the ones spreading FUD.

Kettle, pot... you know the rest.

Of, course, judging by your sig, it's in your job description to downplay your product's weaknesses and slag off the competition. Given that, and the very high percentage of marketing BS in your answers, I find it very hard to take anything you post seriously.

You accuse Sonos of spreading FUD, and yet I don't see them on any of the forums raking muck in the way you do.

That woiuld describe your very first post on this forum. :rolleyes:

And it was in response to a Logitech representative claiming that Sonos were spreading lies about squeezbox when he was the one who was publicly spreading criticism and making snide remarks about Sonos. From what I hear, he also has the ear of a number of squeezebox fans on various forums who act as his mouthpiece. What is on this thread is someone giving a fair critique of the system being savaged for no good reason.

When someone makes false and unsubstantiated accusations they deserve a roasting. When someone posts a truthfull review they dont.

When someone makes false and unsubstantiated accusations they deserve a roasting. When someone posts a truthfull review they dont.

So if I bought a gray market Sonos and had a Zone player go bad on me while I was away on vacation, 3 weeks after buying the unit then started posting that "In my experience" Sonos is garbage, can't get it to connect to my network or other players etc... you would consider that a truthful review?

Yeah, typical... you don't like what he said so you dismiss it as "bitter and nitpicking". Looking at his original post I see nothing which I wouldn't expect to see in a good magazine review. It's only because some squeezebox fanboys got worked up about him daring to suggest it wasn't the most perfect thing on God's earth, and challenged him on his statements that he has been forced to explain himself. In every case he has come up with a perfectly good explanation for his comments. So he's telling the truth but you still want to brand him as having a grudge? When someone gets this defensive about their favorite product I have to wonder what they are trying to hide.

Typical? Typical what? Fanboy? You can't substantiate that accusation. I challenge you to find other posts of mine that demonstrate I'm a fanboy of any product, including the Duet. In another thread, I wrote about my difficulties in getting it set up to connect with my network, but unfortunately that post got lost with the week's worth of posts that disappeared on this forum earlier this month.

Anyway, I stand by my opinion that jaffacake is nitpicking. You say look at his first post in this thread? OK, fine, let's look at his first post:

jaffacake wrote:
The scroll wheel may well be like a first-gen iPod but it's sensitivity has a lot to be desired. For example, one full revolution clockwise may scroll down through 5 artists and one revolution counter-clockwise would only go up 3 artists. This unpredictable sensitivity makes it quite hard to navigate.

Additionally, as it physically rotates, it pivots on a axis - kind of like a spinning top. Mine wobbles a bit like a spinning top too and tips over slightly when i press my finger on it. This makes turning the thing through several rotations in a row feel a bit odd and sort of jerky.

I think to claim the controller "iPod/Sonos-style" is an insult to both Apple and Sonos, neither of which would create a product of such low build quality. I'm talking about the Duet's creaky battery cover, ability to attract greasy fingerprints and seconds and it's display that you can't see at all in bright daylight, making it useless outdoors. The only thing this remote really has in common with Sonos is that they both have buttons and a screen and both are used to control a music system.


(emphasis mine)

Creaky battery cover, ability to attract fingerprints, and you can't see it in bright daylight? You think those are fair criticisms? Furthermore, how often do you see magazine reviews in which they claim a comparison is an insult "to both Apple and Sonos" or some other competitor?

As for the daylight thing, well, this is an indoor product. Who the hell uses the thing in bright daylight? A better question is what kind of consumer holds up products to impossibly high standards like that? That would be like my buying a laptop and reviewing it on the basis of its shorting out while diving to 60 feet with it. Jaffacake lost most of his credibility with me in this thread critiquing the product with that remark, as I found it ridiculous, frankly.

The creaky battery cover is certainly disputable, as probably most of us (including me) do not have such a problem, and the fingerprints thing is just plain nitpicking. As has been pointed out in this thread, anything dark and shiny and plastic or with a screen that comes into contact with fingers is going to get fingerprints on it. Any 10-year-old could tell you that. No one needs to read a "review" of a product to understand that, and it is a criticism which is hardly unique to the Duet controller.

Anyway, you're wrong about my dismissing what he said. I even told him he had a good point. I did criticize some of his comments as bitter and nitpicking, and again, I stand by those criticisms. You accuse me of being defensive, but your accusation is without merit. I took jaffacake to task for having ridiculous expectations about a consumer product, and for trashing the product based on his perhaps getting a defective unit, but not bothering to return it. That's not a problem with the product; that's laziness on his part, or something he risked not being able to do when he bought it on the gray market. I didn't take personal offense at what jaffacake wrote, and I didn't write anything which indicated I did. If I had, you might be able to label me defensive. You can't do so credibly in this instance, however.

My Duet has been running very well for me. That said I did run into a couple early adopter bugs that were quickly addressed by the development team. I was frustrated enough the first 3 weeks that I looked at the sonos and quickly realized it wouldn't work with my WMA Lossless library. Now I'm glad it didn't support WMA Lossless, I love the duet and so does everyone that comes over to my house.

I fortunately didn't have any network issues, I have a good router(DIR-655) and keep it up to date with the latest firmware.

I've been following a few of these threads and it's clear that jaffacake's real purpose is make the sonos look like a god send and to make the slim products look like crap.

My main comment would be that, if they ever do enable the controller's on board DAC and headphone port, the battery is unlikely to last the length of a single album - especially if streaming over wifi.


I wanted to update this thread in case anyone was interested in this portion of the discussion. I have actually been listening to my SB Controller for about 2 hours now streaming Pandora over my wifi connectoin while walking around the house and I still have lots of battery life left. I haven't run it down completely, but I am guessing 4-5 hours is not going to be out of the question. I am not sure if it matters, but I am driving a set of Shure in ear headphones.

Jonno

How did you do that? I thought the headphone jack was not supported by the software. Do you have to do something to enable the feature?

I wanted to update this thread in case anyone was interested in this portion of the discussion. I have actually been listening to my SB Controller for about 2 hours now streaming Pandora over my wifi connectoin while walking around the house and I still have lots of battery life left. I haven't run it down completely, but I am guessing 4-5 hours is not going to be out of the question. I am not sure if it matters, but I am driving a set of Shure in ear headphones.

Yes, some of us are still interested. Thanks for the update. I'm curious as to how you are doing that too. Are you in a beta program or something? I checked Logitech's support site and it says SqueezeCenter 7.2.1 is the still current version, which is what I have had for a month.

(Oh, and I wish jaffacake would please stay out of this thread unless he has something constructive to offer. I'm sick of his SB sucks nonsense).

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Nightly_Builds gets the latest version. Of course, a beta so things may go wrong.

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Nightly_Builds gets the latest version. Of course, a beta so things may go wrong.

You don't need beta code for things to go wrong, SB sucks :D

(come on, you asked for that)

I am using the nightly builds, have been since 7.3 came available and I will give you my feedback on that. If it is something your interested in just check out the beta section on the slim forums.

I have found it to be extremely stable. Every once and a while a new feature doesn't work, but for the most part everything has been perfect for me. There have been some people reporting that one of the controller firmware versions wouldn't connect to squeezenetwork, but I haven't used SN in a while, so I can't say.

I don't update every night - I usually only update when they add a new feature that I want.

I have found Slim devices to be EXTREMELY responsive if you take an active role in helping them test the new releases. They are very open to ideas and developers are implementing the suggestions of the community on how stuff should work.

7.3 overall overcomes some of the major talking points as well. It now sync's all internet radio, doesn't restart tracks when adding or removing boxes to a sync group, streams Rhapsody to an unlimited number of synced players, enables the controller headphone out, allows crossfading and gapless play while synced and a few other things I forget. I have been extremely happy with it.

I am using the nightly builds, have been since 7.3 came available and I will give you my feedback on that. If it is something your interested in just check out the beta section on the slim forums.

I have found it to be extremely stable. Every once and a while a new feature doesn't work, but for the most part everything has been perfect for me. There have been some people reporting that one of the controller firmware versions wouldn't connect to squeezenetwork, but I haven't used SN in a while, so I can't say.

I don't update every night - I usually only update when they add a new feature that I want.

I have found Slim devices to be EXTREMELY responsive if you take an active role in helping them test the new releases. They are very open to ideas and developers are implementing the suggestions of the community on how stuff should work.

7.3 overall overcomes some of the major talking points as well. It now sync's all internet radio, doesn't restart tracks when adding or removing boxes to a sync group, streams Rhapsody to an unlimited number of synced players, enables the controller headphone out, allows crossfading and gapless play while synced and a few other things I forget. I have been extremely happy with it.

Good to hear about all the improvements. Do you know when 7.3 is supposed to be officially released?

You don't need beta code for things to go wrong,

Agreed.

SB sucks :D

(come on, you asked for that)

No, I didn't.

At first I took the comment seriously. But then I realised that bit was a response to Will, who almost invited you to say it.

Good to hear about all the improvements. Do you know when 7.3 is supposed to be officially released?

It is tentative for the first part of December - here is a list of all the changes too.

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/SoftwareRoadmap#v7.3

But then I realised that bit was a response to Will, who almost invited you to say it.

Oh, is jaffacake like Gazoo? He just appears out of nowhere to make some smart-ass remark and be annoying in general, especially if you mention his name?

Oh, is jaffacake like Gazoo? He just appears out of nowhere to make some smart-ass remark and be annoying in general, especially if you mention his name?

be quiet dumb dumb :D

be quiet dumb dumb :D

That's hysterical! BTW, wasn't it the Great Gazoo?

CD

smart-ass remark

smart-ass remarkplonk the putz.