So, where are all the people insisting this had the SpursEngine/SRT now? ;)

Boy Im really behind on DVD player technology. What the heck is the Spurs engine and srt and when are they coming out? I guess I need to educate myself before rushing out and buying stuff. I keep reading that this Toshiba player is really crap and now I am going to really look at it with a critical eye when I watch it over the weekend. Thank god circuit city has a 30 day return policy. Should I wait for the release of the Spurs engine?

What the heck is the Spurs engine and srt and when are they coming out?

The Spurs Engine is like the Cell chip on the PS3, only less powerful (fewer active cores). But still has lots of processing power. One of the new top-of-the-line laptops by Toshiba has it. And Super-resolution technology extracts additional picture information by looking at a series of frames. NASA has been doing it for a long time with photographs of outer space.

Now, a few months ago, when the Toshiba CEO (http://www.dvdtown.com/news/toshiba-ceo-talks-about-life-after-hd-dvd/5299) said that they were going to improve upconverting "so that consumers won't be able to tell the difference from HD DVD images," what happened?

It happened that some guy you might recognize posted on the dvdtown forum the following comment:

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff334/necessaryorder/dead.jpg

So it was our old friend defunctflesh who floated the idea that Toshiba players would have (a) Cell technology and (b) Super-resolution.

The Spurs Engine is like the Cell chip on the PS3, only less powerful (fewer active cores). But still has lots of processing power. One of the new top-of-the-line laptops by Toshiba has it. And Super-resolution technology extracts additional picture information by looking at a series of frames. NASA has been doing it for a long time with photographs of outer space.

Now, a few months ago, when the Toshiba CEO (http://www.dvdtown.com/news/toshiba-ceo-talks-about-life-after-hd-dvd/5299) said that they were going to improve upconverting "so that consumers won't be able to tell the difference from HD DVD images," what happened?

It happened that some guy you might recognize posted on the dvdtown forum the following comment:

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff334/necessaryorder/dead.jpg

So it was our old friend defunctflesh who floated the idea that Toshiba players would have (a) Cell technology and (b) Super-resolution.

Wow thanks for the info. I really like the PS3 as a dvd and blu ray player and I hope Toshiba comes out with this soon..

The Spurs Engine is like the Cell chip on the PS3, only less powerful (fewer active cores). But still has lots of processing power. One of the new top-of-the-line laptops by Toshiba has it. And Super-resolution technology extracts additional picture information by looking at a series of frames. NASA has been doing it for a long time with photographs of outer space.

Now, a few months ago, when the Toshiba CEO (http://www.dvdtown.com/news/toshiba-ceo-talks-about-life-after-hd-dvd/5299) said that they were going to improve upconverting "so that consumers won't be able to tell the difference from HD DVD images," what happened?

It happened that some guy you might recognize posted on the dvdtown forum the following comment:

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff334/necessaryorder/dead.jpg

So it was our old friend defunctflesh who floated the idea that Toshiba players would have (a) Cell technology and (b) Super-resolution.

It will be interesting to see what Super Upconversion looks like if it does make it to market. With Toshiba batting 0-2 with SED and HD DVD I won't be holding my breath :)

However, friends I have at IBM tell me that they are working on chips that will take lower quality feeds and magically transform them to look like HD. But the work is focused on video on demand type work for set top boxes. So, it does appear that people are investing in 'super upconversion' technologies for mainstream video market and products with these chips will probably start making their way into products soon. I may be wrong, but IBM may have played a role in the whole cell architecture as well (I first heard about it when IBM was working on a processor for the xbox). Wonder what sort of processor the wii uses and if Intel is also working on 'spurs' type chips for consumer products.

It will be interesting to see what Super Upconversion looks like if it does make it to market. With Toshiba batting 0-2 with SED and HD DVD I won't be holding my breath :)

However, friends I have at IBM tell me that they are working on chips that will take lower quality feeds and magically transform them to look like HD. But the work is focused on video on demand type work for set top boxes. So, it does appear that people are investing in 'super upconversion' technologies for mainstream video market and products with these chips will probably start making their way into products soon. I may be wrong, but IBM may have played a role in the whole cell architecture as well (I first heard about it when IBM was working on a processor for the xbox). Wonder what sort of processor the wii uses and if Intel is also working on 'spurs' type chips for consumer products.
None of this seems to bode well for getting Blu-Ray out to the masses quickly... which makes me sad as I then don't forsee BD prices coming down or BD selection ever becoming vast.

So the Cell Procsessor is now the holy grail that Toshiba will be putting in an a new SDVD player? A good amount people think that upconversion for DVD's is ok or bad when used in Sony's PS3(cell processor with all cores active) but now less active cores being used in Toshiba's player it will be better and some how cause people to buy this player and not move to an HD optical disc? I just don't get it...

OK, so I have connected the player and watched one movie plus several scenes from others and......


This does an excellent job. On my 100" screen at 1080/24, it looks great and easily beats the Reon in the Sammy 5000 and my A35 with the ABT chip as well as the Oppo for the untrained eye.

It is definitely doing something interesting. With Color + sharp on, it is close enough to BD or HD DVD that the unwashed masses would probably never upgrade on anything less than said FP system. It is something to do with the color and the edge enhancement that mimics HD discs, but we (AVS MEMBERS) will still notice the difference.

I played Fast and the Furious: Tokyo Drift on combo HD and SD DVD- the only HD release that I have two copies of on combo discs- and my family (wife and two daughters) said that they could not tell the difference easily between the two. Me, OTOH thinks that I can easily tell the difference, but that is me.

The strength shows on on-screen text like titles and subtitles which always look soft on SD but razor sharp on HD or BD. With this player, they look sharp and defined, very HD like. I can tell there is something going on here that the purist in me probably has been taught to not like, but it does look damn good on my ISF calibrated FP system as well as the 50" plasma that hangs behind the drop-down screen (even I am hard pressed to find easily definable differences on this smaller display). I am not a chipset kind of guy, but even if this is not as popular as the Reon, Toshiba is doing something that the average guy will love.

More to come

I played Fast and the Furious: Tokyo Drift on combo HD and SD DVD- the only HD release that I have two copies of on combo discs- and my family (wife and two daughters) said that they could not tell the difference easily between the two. Me, OTOH thinks that I can easily tell the difference, but that is me.

The strength shows on on-screen text like titles and subtitles which always look soft on SD but razor sharp on HD or BD. With this player, they look sharp and defined, very HD like. I can tell there is something going on here that the purist in me probably has been taught to not like, but it does look damn good on my ISF calibrated FP system as well as the 50" plasma that hangs behind the drop-down screen (even I am hard pressed to find easily definable differences on this smaller display). I am not a chipset kind of guy, but even if this is not as popular as the Reon, Toshiba is doing something that the average guy will love.

More to come

that what I thought at first also, but from back to back the oppo has more detail than the XDE. Try Monsters Inc, XDE looks sharp and nice but Oppo is slightly softer but I see fine details the XDE is clearly missing.

Wow, that's quite a review, larrimore.

You said you have a Panasonic FP and a 100" screen. I have an AE900U and a 100" Carada Brilliant White screen. Is that similar to your setup?

If it is, it sounds like you're getting noticable bang for the buck on it with that upconverter.

that what I thought at first also, but from back to back the oppo has more detail than the XDE. Try Monsters Inc, XDE looks sharp and nice but Oppo is slightly softer but I see fine details the XDE is clearly missing.

That's why I said to the untrained eye. I am sure there is something unnatural going on and it may not get the approval of the purists in the group, but there is somehting that Mr and Mrs Average Joe will find appealing. It is definitely, IMHO, an HD machine delayer (if it gets out there for around $99), maybe not a killer. If one cares about the best and I think I do, then HD is where it's at (Blu Ray), but I am going out on a limb here and say that Toshiba has the ability in this software that is doing this stuff to delay a bunch of people's desire for a BD player. And, I might add, that is not really a good thing for most of us who care about the best presentation of movies. It is definitley a keeper for me just to play with- at lest for a while.

My next move is to tweak the settings in the Reon players I have to see if it can come close in the area I was talking about earlier- on screen text. More coming.

Wow, that's quite a review, larrimore.

You said you have a Panasonic FP and a 100" screen. I have an AE900U and a 100" Carada Brilliant White screen. Is that similar to your setup?

If it is, it sounds like you're getting noticable bang for the buck on it with that upconverter.

AE900 at 1080/24P ISF calibrated on a motorized 1.00 gain high contrast white screen. 100" at 12 feet.

And, before the 1080 fanatics scream it has something to do with my lowly 720P projector, save it. I have auditioned 3 1080 PJ's and my calibrated AE900 looks jus as good from my seating distance, that's why I haven't upgraded even though I thought I wanted to. period.

Later I will also hook it up in my bedroom to the 1080/120 Hz display I have (Toshiba) and we'll see how that goes as well.

One more quick comment, and then we are off to watch a couple of movies: I hope the BD and HD fans don't jump on me. I am a big HD (200+ discs) and BD (just under 100) supporter. I am also completely enamored with my PS3's HD downloads, but even if available, I would not buy them. So, I am not trying to change any minds, just reporting what I see. OK?

I just tried this region free hack for a different toshiba dvd player from videohelp.com and it worked and I'm currently watching a region 2 pal disc on the XD-E500.


XXX.videohelp.com/dvdhacks/toshiba-sd570sa/7379


I don't have enough posts yet to post a link so I replaced the www with XXX.




edit: I just checked a region 0 pal disc and a region 4 pal disc and they also both player after using this hack.

-------------------------------------------------
Region code hack posted by Miesepies, May 10 2008:
Found out the below hack from the 5970 works on the 570 too.

This was succesfully done on a SD-570SR (yes, the player listed here is 570SA).

Codefree via remote control:

- open the tray
- type 2403960
- press 9
- close the tray
- turn the player off and back on again

It should now play all regions. Tested with region 1,2 and 3 discs.

I just tried this region free hack for a different toshiba dvd player from videohelp.com and it worked and I'm currently watching a region 2 pal disc on the XD-E500.


XXX.videohelp.com/dvdhacks/toshiba-sd570sa/7379


I don't have enough posts yet to post a link so I replaced the www with XXX.


-------------------------------------------------
Region code hack posted by Miesepies, May 10 2008:
Found out the below hack from the 5970 works on the 570 too.

This was succesfully done on a SD-570SR (yes, the player listed here is 570SA).

Codefree via remote control:

- open the tray
- type 2403960
- press 9
- close the tray
- turn the player off and back on again

It should now play all regions. Tested with region 1,2 and 3 discs.


Thank you!! You just cost me $150. :) I was interested in the player but didn't want to add another DVD player to my component rack unless I could retire my region free Oppo.

I picked one of these up earlier today. And I too am trying to figure out what is going on. When I first hooked it up and gave it a look my first impression was - huh? - what's the big deal. But that was from about a foot away from the screen. From that distance, at least to me, it was pretty obvious that my player with the Reon HQV produced a "cleaner" image.

But then when I backed off a bit and sat at what I would call a "typical" or "recommended" viewing distance I think I saw what the XDE was designed to do - optimize PQ for a typical viewing distance. When using the color option, for example, which seems to goose up the greens and blues the picture appears to gain depth. Which in my mind is an interesting approach. Goose up greens and blues - leave the rest alone and viola the picture doesn't seem to have that flat SD appearance. Has it gained detail? No. It looks more like something HD with a bit of grain in it. It is not like the entire picture is "hot" which would be the result if one simply increased color saturation.

This is just a guess on my part. I haven't had the machine long enough. In any event it is more trickery than anything else. But trickery does work. And if the trickery is nothing more than influencing how the brain processes an image is it really trickery?

More to follow as well.

First, thanks to Ron for having my back while I enjoyed my last day of vacation at the beach with my family! ;)

I don't pretend to be any kind of expert on DVD chipsets, and I'll be dammed if I can find it now, but I specifically remember reading an article on the XDE500 recently where a Toshiba rep confirmed that they developed the XDE technology and it was delivered as a custom chipset used in the player. Perhaps the Zoran part is really just the core engine and the additional processing is done outside this device.

I know the deinterlacing performance is less than can be achieved by other much more expensive solutions like ABT but considering I've been using a straight flag reader (the original Genesis chipset in my RP91) for almost 6 years now without any major problems, I'm not too concerned. I really only watch film-based stuff, not really any video source material where most of the issues tend to crop up. I think these days the flagging is generally pretty consistent on new releases.

I'm also glad to see several others agreeing with my assessment that this thing actually does a very respectable job, even at very large screen sizes. I understand where some folks are coming from, wanting to minimize the processing so as to have the picture appear as natural and film-like as possible. And while below 60" I probably also fall into this camp, once you get above this, un-processed DVD is really stretched beyond its limits. So for me, I'm willing to look past the processing "artificiality" based on the end result my eyes see, and it does appear very good. When a player at this price point compares this favorably to the substantially more expensive XA2 in PQ and also offers 24fps, its a huge bang for the buck and a no brainer if you're looking for your first upconverter or need 24fps capability which are both true in my case. So while I wait a couple years for BD to go mainstream I'll be happy to use this and continue renting and watching my own SD DVDs on it.

Many of you are comparing this thing to $400 DVD players and saying it doesn't hold up. But for those of you who have one, has anyone compared it to a cheap, say $50-$60 upscaling player? I want to upgrade to a better player, but $400 is a bit ridiculous. TIA!

I have had my E500 for 24hrs and have had a chance to watch several DVDs.

I like what it is doing for me. It is not HD as I previously stated. By I agree with Doug..it may be a one-trick pony....but it is a hell of a trick. For the money I am happy with what it can do with standard DVDs.

Anyone figure out how to get 4:3 material to display 4:3? I have setup everything for 4:3 and yet I am getting 4:3 stretched.

Also...I emailed Toshiba and asked if this was using the spurs engine. They replied that this was proprietary information that they were not going to release.

If I knew it would play all my DVD-Rs I believe I would get this player in a heartbeat. So far its been reported by one individual as having definite problems with DVD-Rs... could those who actually own this player comment on the ability of this player to play their personal DVD-Rs as well as commercially manufactured SD-DVDs?

I have been playing DVD-r's all night with no problems. Not one single hiccup yet. I havent tried any commercial dvd's yet.

has anyone compared it to a cheap, say $50-$60 upscaling player? I want to upgrade to a better player, but $400 is a bit ridiculous. TIA!

I'm in the same boat. I'd be willing to go up to $150 for the Toshiba XDE-E500, or $170 for the OPPO DV-980H. I seem to recall hearing the latter may have issues with macroblocking; is this common to all upconverting DVD players, or would the Toshiba be a better choice?

I'm still looking at TVs as well, and I'm leaning towards a 42" Panasonic plasma. But which DVD player do I pair with it?

Took a look at two more old movies. Earth vs Flying Saucers and The V miniseries. In both cases the E500 did a terrific job. In fact, with V the color setting really brings the disk to life. The contrast setting worked really well with E vs FS. The sharpness increase really works well and the previous comments relating it to an unmask filter in photoshop are right on the mark.

I'm in the same boat. I'd be willing to go up to $150 for the Toshiba XDE-E500, or $170 for the OPPO DV-980H. I seem to recall hearing the latter may have issues with macroblocking; is this common to all upconverting DVD players, or would the Toshiba be a better choice?The 970 and 980 do not have a macroblocking problem. The 971 and 981 do.

Many of you are comparing this thing to $400 DVD players and saying it doesn't hold up. But for those of you who have one, has anyone compared it to a cheap, say $50-$60 upscaling player? I want to upgrade to a better player, but $400 is a bit ridiculous. TIA!

It holds up quite nicely thank you. In fact, I am now convinced after staying up until 2AM watching entire movies that this is quite a player. The Oppo 981 and the Reon players I have do seem to have more detail if you are looking at frozen images and analyzing them and I am also convinced the deinterlacing is better with those two. However, the strength of this player is something to do with the software, not necessarily the chipset. It definitley pumps up the sharpness like some $50 upconverters, but it does it in a way that really looks good (as I said, this is most easily seen from on-screen text which is noticably soft on all other upscalers). Additionally, the color adjustment lends a very pleasing look to movies and bumps the color to a level that approximates that of HD discs. Is it natural? I am not sure. But I can tell you that both of these "tricks" produce a very pleasing viewing experience. I have now been able to spend several hours with it and even compared it to an HD disc presentation of the same movie (Wild Hogs on BD and Fast/Furious Tokyo) and even though there is no comparison, it is one hellova player even against HD and appears to hold up better than the others against the real deal.

Most of us here heap praise or attack based on trying to justify our own purposes, keep that in mind. OTOH, I am probably not going to keep this player so I think I can be somewhat level headed. I have moved too heavily into HD to turn back and there is truly a difference. And, I will keep the Oppo for the SACD and DVD-A playback. However, I could see this player delaying many purchases of HD players during this transition period.

Maybe Toshiba is trying to get one last gig into Sony before the enevitable happens? I am not sure. But, this is definitely a great player for a HD TV without springing for the real thing, yet.

I'm in the same boat. I'd be willing to go up to $150 for the Toshiba XDE-E500, or $170 for the OPPO DV-980H. I seem to recall hearing the latter may have issues with macroblocking; is this common to all upconverting DVD players, or would the Toshiba be a better choice?

I'm still looking at TVs as well, and I'm leaning towards a 42" Panasonic plasma. But which DVD player do I pair with it?

Even though I also have LCDs, the Panny plasma I have is my favorite- good choice.

My opinion is to start with the XDE. It can be picked up at CC and easily returned if it doesn't suffice. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

I just ordered the XDE-E500 form Amazon yesterday. They now have it for $149.00. I'll use it for the SD DVDs as I have a HD DVD player and a Blu-ray player. I just wanted something to make the SD DVDs look better at a reasonably good cost considering how much I paid for the HD DVD and Blu-ray players.

I come from the audio world and your comparison issues are not new to my eyes.
-You dont have a standardized way to test the new Toshiba XDE
-some of you PREFER vivid settings on their sets.(read AVS forum threads elsewhere)
-Some of you are testing on small screens (40") and others on bigger screens. (obviously, the bigger the screen, the bigger the challenge and the more obvious the equipment drawbacks in sharpness may be revealed)
-All you have to do is read how many of you with the bigger screens (such as projection images) of 100" and above "seem" to think the XDE is better.
-many of you may not even be comparing on calibrated units.

Ive seen the arguments before .....only in audio.
There, .....my hearing may not be as good as your hearing
Here, my eyesight and preferences in coloration, sharpness or detail may be different than someone else's.
Cable connections and their quality is a factor, quality and purity of 110v driving your whole system is variable and will affect "noise".

All I can tell you is....YMMV...your mileage may vary.

From MY point of view.... all I really want to know is "how significantly does this unit improve standard DVD images compared to a standard DVD player"
(Uh, is a standard player a non-Oppo etc etc etc etc) : )

We appreciate all comers comments, but this looks like its gonna be an argument similar to "HDDVD is better than BlueRay" or vice versa.

I look forward to reading everyone's comments.....

I'm interested to hear how this player compares with the Panasonic S97 which, for me, has been the benchmark player for several years and that I always end up returning to after trying others.

I come from the audio world and your comparison issues are not new to my eyes.


yeah, they aren't new to our eyes either. why do you think you have some kind of inside line?

I come from the audio world and your comparison issues are not new to my eyes.
-You dont have a standardized way to test the new Toshiba XDE
-some of you PREFER vivid settings on their sets.(read AVS forum threads elsewhere)
-Some of you are testing on small screens (40") and others on bigger screens. (obviously, the bigger the screen, the bigger the challenge and the more obvious the equipment drawbacks in sharpness may be revealed)
-All you have to do is read how many of you with the bigger screens (such as projection images) of 100" and above "seem" to think the XDE is better.
-many of you may not even be comparing on calibrated units.


This matches my impression so far as well. The only people saying the player is great are the ones that match your list above. I bet if you stuck an HQV disc in it wouldn't fair to well and pro reviewers will rip it apart.

This matches my impression so far as well. The only people saying the player is great are the ones that match your list above. I bet if you stuck an HQV disc in it wouldn't fair to well and pro reviewers will rip it apart.

??? I hate Vivid settings on flat panels.

I have a 92" screen.

I have several hundred Blu Rays, HDDVD and DVHS tapes.

I like what the E500 does for 480i DVDS.

Shoot me :)

I like what the E500 does for 480i DVDS.
Aren't most DVDs 480p?

no, all DVDs are encoded at 480i

This matches my impression so far as well. The only people saying the player is great are the ones that match your list above. I bet if you stuck an HQV disc in it wouldn't fair to well and pro reviewers will rip it apart.

You know I have the HQV test disk but Doug and I never tried it. The damn picture looked so good I really didn't care if a test disc didn't fair well. I was just enjoying the movie and that's what counts. I'm used to watching DVD's on my XA2 so to just sit back and enjoy says a lot about this player.

I have the XA2 and I'm sure with noisy DVD's the NR settings would make the XA2 a better player but for $150. The XDE-E500 is a steel.

I'm interested to hear how this player compares with the Panasonic S97 which, for me, has been the benchmark player for several years and that I always end up returning to after trying others.

I agree!

-t

??? I hate Vivid settings on flat panels.

I have a 92" screen.

I have several hundred Blu Rays, HDDVD and DVHS tapes.

I like what the E500 does for 480i DVDS.

Shoot me :)

Hey if you like it then that's all that matters.

no, all DVDs are encoded at 480i

No the DVDs are encoded 24P with pulldownflags, so you could say that the 24P encoding is baked into a 480i signal.

But the filestructure is still 24P. No duplicate frames are encoded.

No the DVDs are encoded 24P with pulldownflags, so you could say that the 24P encoding is baked into a 480i signal.

But the filestructure is still 24P. No duplicate frames are encoded.

Shot @ 480p/24 but it's encoded on the disc @ 480i/60. :)

??? I hate Vivid settings on flat panels.

I have a 92" screen.

I have several hundred Blu Rays, HDDVD and DVHS tapes.

I like what the E500 does for 480i DVDS.

Shoot me :)


Ditto for me except I dont have several hundred Blu rays and instead have over 1,000 DVD-r's. I welcome the improvement (to my eyes) the Toshiba brings to my DVD-R's.

Shot @ 480p/24 but it's encoded on the disc @ 480i/60. :)

That's what I thought.

Shot @ 480p/24 but it's encoded on the disc @ 480i/60. :)

No, it looks like 480/60i due to the pulldownflags, but the encode itself is 480/24P (23,976)

So its 480/24P encode that is baked into a 480/60i stream.

If the studios encode 60i they have to create extra frames that they spend encoding bits on.

So encode 24P is more effective. Thats why I do that myself for NTSC DVD. And I doubt the authoring companys dont know that you can do this.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine#DVDs

If you don't have the physical player in front of you to review it then its all speculation. Until then I will go by these reviews and so far its A++++++ for the XDE DVD player.:)

AMAZON.COM XDE DVD Player Reviews:How good is it? OMG! This DVD player is a revelation!
It greatly increases detail, but does not increase noise/artifacts.
It was astonishing, and a little sad to watch this $149 player
produce a picture that mas MUCH more detailed AND much cleaner
than the Silicon Optix equipped Onkyo DV-HD805
Normally when you increase "sharpness", you increase "noise"
But there isn't the slightest hint of that happening with XDE.
Yet it's not only the detail/sharpness that leaps ahead of
any other UpConverter, it's everything! The color for example
looks like you washed tobacco/nicotine off your screen when
going from the Oppo DV-981HD, Toshiba HD-A35 or Onkyo DV-HD805
to the SuperUpConverter. That's the thing... True high-definition
video isn't just sharper, it's also got much better/more crisp color.
But the Toshiba XD-E500 gives you BOTH the sharpness you expect
from high-definition AND that crisp/vivid color!

What about side-effects, artifacts or problems?
Frankly, I got eye-strain trying to find something, anything
that the SuperUpConverter was getting "wrong" that the Silicon
Optix HQV Reon was getting "right" The verdict? Nada.
Whatever artifacts were visible on the XDE device were also
present and visible on the other conventional UpConverters.

This player keeps up with Blu-Ray in Picture Quality period. Most Blu-Ray titles may look sharper and cleaner due to is being Hi Def, but if you do not own a Blu-Ray player, you are not missing out on anything; this is why this XDE DVD player is a really great cost effective alternative.
It really is one of the best up-converting DVD players around and much better than DVD up-converting on a Blu-Ray player. The price would have been better if it was bellow $100 but when you can buy DVD's for as low as $5 to $10 and make them look almost as good as Hi Def, why not.

I highly recommend this player to everybody. I would stay away from Blu-Ray just until they can iron out there profile problems and high price. Currently Blu-Ray has 3 different profile versions of the player in the market which is only causing consumer confusion. One disc’s features can play in one player where as it won’t play in others. Complete Nonsense. HD DVD never had this problem and was the founder for true PIP, Interactive menus, Internet Connectivity in all players etc.
But until then this player is the best thing to ever hit DVD. Anybody with a library of DVD movies must get this player and people that are planning on building a new DVD library around their newly purchased HDTV should also get this player to maximise their HDTV’s potential.

DVD movies played on a XDE DVD player looks wild on an HDTV and much cleaner on an old CRT Tube TV for those that do not yet own an HDTV.

Did I buy one? Hell Ya, did I recommend it to everybody I know? Hell Ya, Are they going to go out and buy one too? Hell Ya.
http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B001D9IWIY/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

Is this player already locally available in Canada?

Not sure about Canada, just online I think?

Dang! I really want to buy this player locally so if I'm not happy with the quality I can return it (although I currently have zero intention to return it).

Same here. I wonder if Best Buy Canada and/or Future Shop will carry next week? I don't find them on the website.

I guess once I'm back in Toronto I have to ask my contact at Toshiba. I'm hardly in contact with him anymore :(

those reviews are written by Toshiba. It looks nothing like a hidef, plus with out critial viewing you can't even tell them apart from other dvd players.

Goatse, I can't remember for sure, have you bought this player yet?

Will love to know when they are going to be released here.

The two reviews I posted earlier off Amazon do seem kind of bias. I don't think anything can make DVD look better than Blu-Ray or HD DVD, but it can come competitively close IMO. I have an enormous amount of DVD's and there is no way I am re-buying them in any format. This is why this player could be a great asset to me and millions more.

Just can't wait to see it for myself :D

Goatse, I can't remember for sure, have you bought this player yet?

yes, but it was returned yesterday. Pretty disappointed by its performance and functionality. It loses small detail for medium ones, has green 2dollar clock display and a 150dollar dvd player that can't resume play.

those reviews are written by Toshiba. It looks nothing like a hidef, plus with out critial viewing you can't even tell them apart from other dvd players.

Don't blame this on Toshiba, but rather on some potentially very biased former HD DVD supporters. The longer version of the first review has already been posted here. From some comments I've read here there seems be some left over hostility from the format war surfacing so it's hard to trust anyone's opinion. I'll get one when I can and have a look for myself!

those reviews are written by Toshiba...
Don't blame this on Toshiba, but rather on some potentially very biased former HD DVD supporters...


It seems if someone writes a positive review of this player then you guys dismiss it as shenanigans by Toshiba or disgruntled HD DVD fans... you realize for you guys Toshiba and this player can never win at anything... you will just write it off as being 'fixed' or 'manipulated' or 'orchestrated' by Toshiba or their supporters. It's called "cognitive dissonance" and your solution to relieve this mental dissonance is to disbelieve anything that hints that Toshiba might possibly have a good product. Your bias is obvious to any unbiased person reading your postings just by the 'pretzel logic' you are using to justify your stance against Toshiba and this player. However everyone is entitled to their opinion and your opinions (both of you guys) have been duly noted.

Don't blame this on Toshiba, but rather on some potentially very biased former HD DVD supporters. The longer version of the first review has already been posted here. From some comments I've read here there seems be some left over hostility from the format war surfacing so it's hard to trust anyone's opinion. I'll get one when I can and have a look for myself!
Actually from what I'm hearing so far, this player is only as good as the XA2 when the sharpess is turned on. Since I have the XA2, I'll stick with it. If this player were better, I would buy it. Plus this isn't Toshiba's real new tech yet anyway.

Actually from what I'm hearing so far, this player is only as good as the XA2 when the sharpess is turned on. Since I have the XA2, I'll stick with it. If this player were better, I would buy it. Plus this isn't Toshiba's real new tech yet anyway.

I have the XA2 and I am not getting rid of it. It's not better than an XA2. But for $150 this player is pretty darn good. It is also less sharp when compared to the XA2 without the sharp feature turned on. The sharp feature looks similar to the edge enhancement on the XA2 but the image is very clean and smooth and if you have a 24p display its even better. You get a good picture and 24p playback for $150. That's a pretty good deal if you are on a budget. It was good enough that I could live with it and I have owned my XA2 for a year and a half and enjoy very good DVD playback so my eye is used to seeing a good picture. I was pleased with what I saw with the XDE. We never tried any concert DVD's shot in 60i so it may and probably will fail in that regard when compared to the Reon processing but for movies its well worth $150. It may also not fair well with older DVD's that have poor encodes so noise may be more noticed. At least with the XA2 you get mosquito noise reduction and random noise reduction to make poor DVD's look good. The XDE doesn't have any of that. I only had the chance to watch a couple movies on the XDE. I'm sure Doug will watch a few movies in the coming weeks and post what he is seeing.

I have the RS1 as you do. And 24fps on DVDs looks like crap(as they are encoded at 60hz). Does the XDE do that better? Are the edge enhancment and noide reduction settings on a latter firmware for the XA2? I'm keeping mine at 2.6 so the 24fps doesn't make AVC movies look like crap(plus it does not skip anything at all, and I'd hate to jinx that).

I have the RS1 as you do. And 24fps on DVDs looks like crap(as they are encoded at 60hz). Does the XDE do that better? Are the edge enhancment and noide reduction settings on a latter firmware for the XA2? I'm keeping mine at 2.6 so the 24fps doesn't make AVC movies look like crap(plus it does not skip anything at all, and I'd hate to jinx that).

Some older DVD's didn't have the correct flags set during the encode and they do skip and seem to miss frames. Audio lip sync goes way out of wack too. Most newer DVD's I have watched so far look great on my XA2 using 24p. I am using 2.7 firmware on my XA2. I also use a Lumagen HDQ and that looks great set to 24p out. I have not tried those DVD's that don't look good at 24p while using the Lumagen 24p out and the XA2 set to 60i. You got me thinking. I'll give it a try with Austin Powers when I get a chance.

The edge enhancement and NR settings have been on the XA2 since day one. Press the picture button and all the settings will pop up.

It seems if someone writes a positive review of this player then you guys dismiss it as shenanigans by Toshiba or disgruntled HD DVD fans... you realize for you guys Toshiba and this player can never win at anything... you will just write it off as being 'fixed' or 'manipulated' or 'orchestrated' by Toshiba or their supporters. It's called "cognitive dissonance" and your solution to relieve this mental dissonance is to disbelieve anything that hints that Toshiba might possibly have a good product. Your bias is obvious to any unbiased person reading your postings just by the 'pretzel logic' you are using to justify your stance against Toshiba and this player. However everyone is entitled to their opinion and your opinions (both of you guys) have been duly noted.

I'm obviously not dismissing it since I said I'll have a look myself. To set the record straight I supported HD DVD, although I've owned both for quite some time, The first review noted above was written by the guy who runs an HD DVD site for poor losers (I too thought Sony was very nasty in the way it fought the format war, but it's time to move on) and if you reread his review you'll see just how over the top it is - nobody here has said anything like this about the XDE, even though they might think it's a great player. If this thing is any good I'll keep it, but where is Toshiba's SRT player promised by all the hypsters?

What we really need is an objective review of this player. I would love to know how it compares to the XA2 & to Oppo players. I would also like to know how it does on the HQV test disk. Kris Dearing where are you. I would hope that you get a chance to review this player.

No the DVDs are encoded 24P with pulldownflags, so you could say that the 24P encoding is baked into a 480i signal.

But the filestructure is still 24P. No duplicate frames are encoded.

Good gravy...here we go again!

If DVD is encoded at 24p, that WHAT exactly are you FLAGGING?? DVDs are encoded on the disc in 480i. Period. End of discussion.

The simple fact is that because the source is 24p, there is all the information necessary to re-contruct the original full frame. Your DVD encoding software is accepting a 24p file but I absolutely promise you that it is breaking that down to 60i when it's writing it to the disc. Otherwise, the disc wouldn't play in a regular DVD player.

What we really need is an objective review of this player. I would love to know how it compares to the XA2 & to Oppo players. I would also like to know how it does on the HQV test disk. Kris Dearing where are you. I would hope that you get a chance to review this player.

Um, have you actually read any of this thread? Ron and I did a direct comparison to his XA2 using his RS1 on a 120" screen. Nothing about this player is hiding at that screen size. Same 110V power, same room, same PJ, same DVD disc, same sets of eyes. We may not be "professional" reviewers, but both of us have enough A/V knowledge and critical viewing experience to know what's good and what's not. The notion that it's only good if a professional reviewer says so is naive and foolish. (Hell, if that were true I'd still have a Sampo 34" widescreen TV based on Gary Merson's review but as is so frequently the case, he got a perfect "review sample" and I got the regular flawed Joe Public version.) Neither of us has a dog in any fight - Ron's perfectly happy using his XA2 to upconvert his SD DVDs and I don't need this player to replace my RP91/iScan HD combo which does a perfectly adequate job. I bought it at a local CC exactly so I could return it if was nothing more than smoke and mirrors. But that's not the case based on our viewing session. We've already said its not equal to the XA2, but darn close, and for the price it fills a void for many like me wanting good 1080p PQ and 24fps in a basic player.

Sure the deinterlacing performance isn't the best, and it may fall apart running all kinds of problematic footage from a test disc, but who cares unless you sit around watching test discs all day? I almost didn't buy my RP91 since I got caught up this very same dilemma until an ISF tech told me to forget about all those edge cases and just get it since it'll work fine with 98% of the stuff you play - and he was dead on. Its all about compromises and for me the 24fps output, very good 1080p up-conversion, and price outweighs even the minor issues I've encountered so far. (See my most recent post on the owners thread.) For someone looking for a budget player with decent up-conversion and 24fps to use for watching movies 95% of the time, this is just what the doctor ordered.

Um, have you actually read any of this thread? Ron and I did a direct comparison to his XA2 using his RS1 on a 120" screen. Nothing about this player is hiding at that screen size. Same 110V power, same room, same PJ, same DVD disc, same sets of eyes. We may not be "professional" reviewers, but both of us have enough A/V knowledge and critical viewing experience to know what's good and what's not. The notion that it's only good if a professional reviewer says so is naive and foolish. (Hell, if that were true I'd still have a Sampo 34" widescreen TV based on Gary Merson's review but as is so frequently the case, he got a perfect "review sample" and I got the regular flawed Joe Public version.) Neither of us has a dog in any fight - Ron's perfectly happy using his XA2 to upconvert his SD DVDs and I don't need this player to replace my RP91/iScan HD combo which does a perfectly adequate job. I bought it at a local CC exactly so I could return it if was nothing more than smoke and mirrors. But that's not the case based on our viewing session. We've already said its not equal to the XA2, but darn close, and for the price it fills a void for many like me wanting good 1080p PQ and 24fps in a basic player.

Sure the deinterlacing performance isn't the best, and it may fall apart running all kinds of problematic footage from a test disc, but who cares unless you sit around watching test discs all day? I almost didn't buy my RP91 since I got caught up this very same dilemma until an ISF tech told me to forget about all those edge cases and just get it since it'll work fine with 98% of the stuff you play - and he was dead on. Its all about compromises and for me the 24fps output, very good 1080p up-conversion, and price outweighs even the minor issues I've encountered so far. (See my most recent post on the owners thread.) For someone looking for a budget player with decent up-conversion and 24fps to use for watching movies 95% of the time, this is just what the doctor ordered.

You're talking my language! I'm surprised there's someone posting here with a little common sense - amazing - nice post.

Good gravy...here we go again!

If DVD is encoded at 24p, that WHAT exactly are you FLAGGING?? DVDs are encoded on the disc in 480i. Period. End of discussion.

The simple fact is that because the source is 24p, there is all the information necessary to re-contruct the original full frame. Your DVD encoding software is accepting a 24p file but I absolutely promise you that it is breaking that down to 60i when it's writing it to the disc. Otherwise, the disc wouldn't play in a regular DVD player.

Its as you say except that that process is done in the player and not before the encode, unless they have a 60i master of a 24P source. But the reason why the studios wanted 24P encoding in DVDs were because it more effective to encode.

I have done 24P encodes on DVD myself, by encode it 24P with pulldownflags the authoring software accepts the encode, as the pulldown flags makes it compatible with the 60i stream. But there is not a single duplicate frame that I have wasted bits on.

I made one error...the DVD is encoded as two interlaced fields but I made one wrong reference to 60i. You are correct in that there are no extra FIELDS encoded. But it is absolutely 480i and not p.

Otherwise, 480p DVD players would not require deinterlacing for film-based material. Neither would pulldown flags be necessary because what would they indicate? What would you flag?

I made one error...the DVD is encoded as two interlaced fields but I made one wrong reference to 60i. You are correct in that there are no extra FIELDS encoded. But it is absolutely 480i and not p.

Otherwise, 480p DVD players would not require deinterlacing for film-based material. Neither would pulldown flags be necessary because what would they indicate? What would you flag?

Im not sure you can send 480/24P signal from a DVD player, since i dont think its a standard format. So the player still needs to convert the encode. But if you upscale and output 1080/24P the player can skip the flags and just take the 24P encode. But in most other cases were you dont send 24P or 48i you still need to use the flags in the conversion.

But every player can decode a 24P encode if you just have flags that matches the movie to the timeline(60i). Just like PAL uses 25P but with a 50i timeline.


Here is a better link on the subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p#24p_on_DVD

And some more explanation

http://blogs.msdn.com/ptorr/archive/2006/03/15/HDFacts.aspx

I made one error...the DVD is encoded as two interlaced fields but I made one wrong reference to 60i. You are correct in that there are no extra FIELDS encoded. But it is absolutely 480i and not p.

You'd better tell Sonic that, since their Scenarist DVD authoring software (THE de-facto industry standard, FYI) allows 23.976 progressive streams to be authored to DVDs without re-encoding.

Otherwise, 480p DVD players would not require deinterlacing for film-based material. Neither would pulldown flags be necessary because what would they indicate? What would you flag?

The MPEG decoder chip in all standalone DVD players must first decode to 480i since they are required to provide output in that format in order to support legacy TVs. Perhaps a day will come when they are no longer required to do so (possibly for new Blu-ray players), but I doubt if there's much money to be made in engineering new DVD MPEG decoders nowadays.

Also if player wont accept 24P encodes (only 48i)

This program wouldnt work.

http://neuron2.net/dgpulldown/dgpulldown.html

Sorry but you guys have a fundamental misunderstanding. You are certainly not alone though...that Wikipedia page is also in error (hardly the first Wikipedia error, of course).

Even that second link that MovieSwede provides contains contradictory information:HD DVD encodes audio and video in Program Streams and uses field syntax with 30 frame per second timing to represent both 30 fps interlace and 24 fps progressive content. “Missing fields” for 24P content are replaced by “repeat field flags”, the same as DVD-Video.

Note the bolding that I added. FIELD SYTANX means INTERLACED VIDEO. The word "field" does not apply in any way to progressive video or progressive encoding.

Here's but one credible site that supports what I'm saying. I can find lots more if you really want:

http://www.oppodigital.com/Getting-Most-out-of-DVD-on-HDTV-Display.html
Since DVD video is stored on disc in an interlaced format, in order to view this material on a progressive scan screen the separate fields must first be combined into whole frames through a process called deinterlacing.

These displays have super upconversion so maybe a dvd player later on.
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JohnnyG

HD DVD encodes audio and video in Program Streams and uses field syntax with 30 frame per second timing to represent both 30 fps interlace and 24 fps progressive content. “Missing fields” for 24P content are replaced by “repeat field flags”, the same as DVD-Video.

Is what I been talking about, its a 24P encode but with a 60i timeline.

You can take a 24P encode and add flags and the signal gets compatible with DVD. Without reencoding.

You also can remove the pulldown in the computer and have a true 24P encode without reencode.

All this is only possible if the movie is encoded 24P.

Also if you encode interlace you get alot of problem with the GOP if the you break the image sequense (that would be the case if the encode is anything but 24P alt 48i)

And you also have 4:2:0 colrosampling that behavs differently if you have interlace or progressive encoding.

finally, isnt it strange the the encoding software gives you option to encode the material progressive or interlace? If it only encodes the material interlace anyway? Does authoring software companys lies when they market their program as "encode 24P DVD"
And why would they not use progressive encoding for DVD when you only have benefits and zero disadvantages.


EDIT
As for the link you posted, they really should check out their info
Take the example of a DVD movie that was originally produced and released on 35mm film for theatrical release. Film-based motion pictures are photographed at a rate of 24 picture frames per second (fps). When the film is scanned into video to be released on DVD, the publisher has to convert 24 film frames into 60 interlaced video fields because the DVD must produce a rate of 30 frames per second in order to be displayed on a television.

They dont have to convert their master for 60i before they encode their DVD.


http://digitalcontentproducer.com/newsletters/Shooting_HVX200_for_DVD051006/

finally, isnt it strange the the encoding software gives you option to encode the material progressive or interlace?
No, it isn't strange at all and you are misunderstanding the result of this option. If selected, it will write only the necessary FIELDS and add the necessary FIELD repeat flags.

No, it isn't strange at all and you are misunderstanding the result of this option. If selected, it will write only the necessary FIELDS and add the necessary FIELD repeat flags.

Then comes the question, when I encode PAL DVDs I can encode with either 25P or 50i. Why would they let me choose if its interlace anyway?

Choosing 50p will add field flags that a deinterlacer will use to re-assemble the full frame. More importantly, choosing Interlace likely adds a bit of convolution filtering to reduce the appearance of interlace flicker/twitter. This will lead to a more pleasant looking interlaced image but a softer, less detailed image when de-interlaced.

Choosing 50p will add field flags that a deinterlacer will use to re-assemble the full frame. More importantly, choosing Interlace likely adds a bit of convolution filtering to reduce the appearance of interlace flicker/twitter. This will lead to a more pleasant looking interlaced image but a softer, less detailed image when de-interlaced.

Usually the mesures against interlace flicker has been done in the camera already. So I dont think the encoders will lower quality even more. But I have the option to do that in my programs despite if I choose to encode 25P or 50i.

But if it were as you say that the flags are there for the deinterlacer, how come that you can take a progressive encode and add flags and suddenly it becommes compatible?

Also since HD DVD uses the same tech as DVD with pulldown flags, how come that Warner manage to port HD DVD encodes (24P + pulldown) to BD (24P) without reencode?



This is what pulldown flags really do
http://www.afterdawn.com/glossary/terms/pulldown.cfm

Geez...yet another reference to some obscure website?

They are WRONG. Pulldown flags indicate to a decoder what FIELDS should be repeated. How do you flag a FIELD in a progressive image? Answer: you can't!

Riddle me this - why did it take so long for progressive scan DVD players to come to market? Why didn't the very first player offer progressive output? Why does EVERY SINGLE progressive scan DVD player use a chip that DEINTERLACES? Why is the intelligence of the deinterlacer important? If the image is stored in progressive format, how does the 3:2 cadence get messed up on some DVD movies that causes a deinterlacer to trip up (or intelligently switch to a non-flags based detetection method)?

Here's a far more credible source for you:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html

Note this quote: "But sources which are truly progressive in nature are hard to come by right now. Movies on DVD are decoded by the player as interlaced fields. All of the film's original frames are there, but they are just divided into "halves"."

Also since HD DVD uses the same tech as DVD with pulldown flags, how come that Warner manage to port HD DVD encodes (24P + pulldown) to BD (24P) without reencode?]

HD DVD and BD encodes are not put on their respective discs in the same way. See
http://blogs.msdn.com/ptorr/archive/2006/03/15/HDFacts.aspx for "Extra Geeky Info".


HD DVD encodes audio and video in Program Streams and uses field syntax with 30 frame per second timing to represent both 30 fps interlace and 24 fps progressive content. “Missing fields” for 24P content are replaced by “repeat field flags”, the same as DVD-Video. Decoders can ignore the “flags” to output P24 or use them to output 30i. Blu-ray encodes audio and video in Transport Streams and has the option to use frame syntax to encode 24fps content with 24fps timing.



See also: http://www.answers.com/topic/hd-dvd

Both HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc support the 24p (traditional movie) frame rate, but technical implementations of this mode are different among the two formats. Blu-ray Disc supports 24p with its native timing, while HD DVD uses 60i timing for 24p (encoded progressively, replacing missing fields with "repeat field flags"). Decoders can ignore the “flags” to output 24p.[52] There is no impact on picture resolution or storage space as a result of this, as the HD DVD format uses the exact same video information—it simply adds notational overhead.

HD DVD and BD encodes are not put on their respective discs in the same way.

Of course not in the same way since BD uses 24P timeline and HD DVD uses 60i timeline.

But microsoft developed a tool so they could port their 24P with flags to 24P (no flags) without reencode.

And the only way of doing this would be that the encode was 24P from start.


And there is no point of encoding 24P as 48i since you just have to take even and odd lines of the 24P encode and there you have 48i.

Note this quote: "But sources which are truly progressive in nature are hard to come by right now. Movies on DVD are decoded by the player as interlaced fields. All of the film's original frames are there, but they are just divided into "halves"."

Well if you dissmiss every source that proves you differently, its hard to prove anything, but even your own link doesnt prove your statement.

Since it writes "decodes" as interlace fields, im talking about encode.

And if you are right how can people add pulldown flags to an progressive encode and it works on every DVD player out there?

The link you gave answered your own question why there is problems with DVD deinterlacing if the source was 24P

What Can Go Wrong

Flag Reading vs. Cadence Reading

Before we get into specific problems, be aware that progressive DVD players can be divided into two basic types: flag-reading and cadence reading. Flag-reading players use the flags embedded in the MPEG stream to make decisions about what deinterlacing algorithm to use. Cadence-reading players ignore the flags, and analyze the content of the frames as they come out of the MPEG decoder to figure out which algorithms to use.

Flag-reading players have two major difficulties: they are often tripped up by errors in the MPEG stream, where the flags are not correct, and they drop to video mode if the encoding is non-standard, even on good film material. They generally have no way of doing 3-2 pulldown detection other than looking for the alternating "repeat_first_field" flag, so if it's missing, the film mode won't kick in, and you end up seeing the video-mode deinterlacing. This is watchable, but the main reason to get a progressive DVD player is to get film-mode deinterlacing. You can get video-mode deinterlacing from the deinterlacer in the TV. In general, we marked a test "fail" if the player went to video mode on material that was sourced from film.

Actually from what I'm hearing so far, this player is only as good as the XA2 when the sharpess is turned on. Since I have the XA2, I'll stick with it. If this player were better, I would buy it. Plus this isn't Toshiba's real new tech yet anyway.
From what I’ve been reading and from what I’ve seen on the internet, turning up the Sharpness on any HDTV or players like the XA2 does not give you the same effect as the new XDE.

The XDE sharpens around the object within the picture where as anything else just sharpens the whole picture in a general fashion. It just seems like the XDE targets individual objects in the video and sharpens them so they look cleaner. It’s not High Def but much better than DVD in general.

Anything that can make DVD look a little better (Better than the plain up-converting DVD players etc.) is a PLUS for everybody.

Toshiba is not playing games here, they’ve released a product which does indeed give you a better viewing experience. They’ve never claimed its High Def or a Blu-Ray killer just an alternative for people that have DVD’s.

And all CE companies are to be blamed for telling people that 1080p up-converting is Near HD Quality, its not even close and will never be close unless the SD DVD was mastered for that purpose.

Blu-Ray backers are just agitated that the XDE may slow down Blu-Ray adoption. Who said Blu-Ray was the replacement of DVD? Nobody knows at this time. Right now DVD is the leader in Movie Home Entertainment Period. Toshiba wants to tap into that market just like all other CE companies have been doing with up-convert DVD players.

Wake Up People ;)

MovieSwede, if you can ENCODE 24P, then why does every single DVD chipset in existance decode FIELDS and then re-interleave them to make progressive frames? Why don't any of them DECODE 24P?

Quite honestly, I'm surprised that this "DVD is progressive scan" falicy still exists after so many years. It was beaten to death in early 2000 when progressive scan players first started coming to market (note that I was a member of AVS 7 years before you were!)

Quite honestly, I'm surprised that this "DVD is progressive scan" falicy still exists after so many years. It was beaten to death in the early 90s when progressive scan players first started coming to market (note that I was a member of AVS 7 years before you were!)

pardon the...ah...'nitpik', but i thought dvd players didnt come out 'til '97.
which seems to me to be late-ish '90s.:confused:

Oops! I meant early 2000. Aging the technology is one thing, but aging myself is entirely another :D

I have corrected the post.

MovieSwede, if you can ENCODE 24P, then why does every single DVD chipset in existance decode FIELDS and then re-interleave them to make progressive frames? Why don't any of them DECODE 24P?

Quite honestly, I'm surprised that this "DVD is progressive scan" falicy still exists after so many years. It was beaten to death in early 2000 when progressive scan players first started coming to market (note that I was a member of AVS 7 years before you were!)

I think you just have mixed up what happens in encoding. Yes the movie is delivered in an interlace program stream (60i), but the encode is progressive with pulldownflags added so it will be compatible with 60i stream that is what DVD players accepts. And this is not something that was beaten to death in early 2000, for us that encodes DVD.

And please answer this question, if what you say is true, how come you can take a progressive encoding and add pulldown flag in post and suddenly its playable in every DVD out there? Without an reencoding taking place?

Good gravy...here we go again!

If DVD is encoded at 24p, that WHAT exactly are you FLAGGING?? DVDs are encoded on the disc in 480i. Period. End of discussion.

The simple fact is that because the source is 24p, there is all the information necessary to re-contruct the original full frame. Your DVD encoding software is accepting a 24p file but I absolutely promise you that it is breaking that down to 60i when it's writing it to the disc. Otherwise, the disc wouldn't play in a regular DVD player.

I agree the original 24 progressively captured film frames can be indentified and extracted from the encode. For a number of years I've used a VP to extract the original "film" frames from 480i DVD output then processes to a mutiple of 24 output.

D

I have been considering buying this player when it becomes available in the UK in a month or so, however I'm somewhat put off by the fact that it doesn't seem to be able to display 4:3 material at 1080p (and other upscaled resolutions). Does anyone know if Toshiba plan to remedy this?
Thanks in advance.

i don't understand who this is for. people who aren't knowledged or don't care about PQ will be buying the $20 DVD players and people who do know HD and want a higher resolution will be springing a little more for BD players and not buying a high priced player for a dying format (when BD players upconvert anyway). i mean, if you're an Oppo person you already have a better one, too.

just confounding.

i don't understand who this is for. people who aren't knowledged or don't care about PQ will be buying the $20 DVD players and people who do know HD and want a higher resolution will be springing a little more for BD players and not buying a high priced player for a dying format (when BD players upconvert anyway). i mean, if you're an Oppo person you already have a better one, too.

just confounding.

this player is for people like me:

1. owns about 2,000 DVD - most of which won't be released on Blu-ray for years to come.
2. refuses to spend (in Canada) about $500 for an Oppo where a blu-ray player is only $350
3. refuses to use Blu-ray internal upscaler because their upscaling capability are abysmal.

this player is NOT for people who are:
1. own less than 100 DVDs
2. who already own an Oppo
3. snobs who thinks if it's not blu-ray it's not worth watching.

this player is for people like me:

1. owns about 2,000 DVD - most of which won't be released on Blu-ray for years to come.
2. refuses to spend (in Canada) about $500 for an Oppo where a blu-ray player is only $350
3. refuses to use Blu-ray internal upscaler because their upscaling capability are abysmal.

this player is NOT for people who are:
1. own less than 100 DVDs
2. who already own an Oppo
3. snobs who thinks if it's not blu-ray it's not worth watching.

Wow $500 for an Oppo 980 ?

I own lost of DVD's(R1+R2), Blu-ray and HD DVD. I enjoy all the formats and as you say content is king. That said I also want a player that gets the basics right such as deinterlacing as this is as important (more so IMO) than upscaling which happens in the display anyway. If it gets the first wrong no amount of upscaling will resolve the issues.

D

i don't understand who this is for. people who aren't knowledged or don't care about PQ will be buying the $20 DVD players and people who do know HD and want a higher resolution will be springing a little more for BD players and not buying a high priced player for a dying format (when BD players upconvert anyway). i mean, if you're an Oppo person you already have a better one, too.

just confounding.
It's also for people who think Blu-Ray is temporary format at best.

It's also for people who think Blu-Ray is temporary format at best.

may be the case, but DVD is even more temporary.

and not all BD player upscaling is abysmal. source direct to a good panel like a Kuro is better than most upscalers can do anyway.

and not all BD player upscaling is abysmal. source direct to a good panel like a Kuro is better than most upscalers can do anyway.

uhmmm, source direct = no upscaling done by the bd player.

PS: not a single decent BD player can upscale properly. The best BD player that can upscale is Samsung BD-P1200 and we all know how bad of a BD player it is.

uhmmm, source direct = no upscaling done by the bd player.

PS: not a single decent BD player can upscale properly. The best BD player that can upscale is Samsung BD-P1200 and we all know how bad of a BD player it is.

speak for yourself, the Pio-51 upscales VERY well, and Source Direct does indeed mean no upscaling - which is great if you have a good panel since it'll upscale better than any DVD/BD player will. not all players do Source Direct though.

Brian, I do won the 51fd and to my eyes the upscaling is just so-so. Nowhere near my XA2.

i don't understand who this is for. people who aren't knowledged or don't care about PQ will be buying the $20 DVD players and people who do know HD and want a higher resolution will be springing a little more for BD players and not buying a high priced player for a dying format (when BD players upconvert anyway). i mean, if you're an Oppo person you already have a better one, too.

just confounding.

I'm a little confounded by your rational! You consider $300 for a BD player just a "little" more than $20 for a DVD player? That "dying" format has many, many times the content as BD does and the content is not only much, much more accessible, but also much, much, much cheaper! I have two BD players and a dual drive in my HTPC, but seldom buy BD and there's nothing local to rent on BD. DVD on the other hand is everywhere and very inexpensive and looks great on my 52" Samsung LCD - in fact some DVDs look pretty good on my G90 front projector on a 92" diagonal screen. Some may wish that DVD would just go away, but with BD companies making upconverting DVD players and advertising them as HD and then selling them for next to nothing and BD studios selling DVD to Wal-Mart so it can basically give them away - well, I just don't see DVD "dying" anytime soon since BD CE companies and studios are still supporting it big time!

I'm a little confounded by your rational! You consider $300 for a BD player just a "little" more than $20 for a DVD player? That "dying" format has many, many times the content as BD does and the content is not only much, much more accessible, but also much, much, much cheaper! I have two BD players and a dual drive in my HTPC, but seldom buy BD and there's nothing local to rent on BD. DVD on the other hand is everywhere and very inexpensive and looks great on my 52" Samsung LCD - in fact some DVDs look pretty good on my G90 front projector on a 92" diagonal screen. Some may wish that DVD would just go away, but with BD companies making upconverting DVD players and advertising them as HD and then selling them for next to nothing and BD studios selling DVD to Wal-Mart so it can basically give them away - well, I just don't see DVD "dying" anytime soon since BD CE companies and studios are still supporting it big time!

i said a little more than the $150 for the Toshiba, not a little more than $20. My blockbuster has around 50 BD titles on top of all new releases in BD - and blockbuster online will get them to you anywhere in the country. Any Best Buy will carry most titles to buy. It really can't be that scarce.

to each his own, i just personally think it's "polishing a turd" so to speak.

and about the 51FD, the source direct to a Pio panel is wonderful. i understand not everyone can get one of those though.

speak for yourself, the Pio-51 upscales VERY well, and Source Direct does indeed mean no upscaling - which is great if you have a good panel since it'll upscale better than any DVD/BD player will. not all players do Source Direct though.

I too have the Pioneer PRO 151FD. Every DVD player in my house does a better job upscaling SD DVD than the TV. For those with an Oppo or Reon based solution, it won't even be close!

Brian, I do won the 51fd and to my eyes the upscaling is just so-so. Nowhere near my XA2.

A friend of mine with an XA2 just got his BD51 yesterday and said pretty much the same thing. Although he said he felt if he'd never seen his XA2 (or my XD-E500) upscale SD DVD, it would probably be good enough to use for that. But no 24fps output for SD DVD, though, unlike the Toshibas. This was on a 120" screen using a fully cal'd RS1.

Brian, I do won the 51fd and to my eyes the upscaling is just so-so. Nowhere near my XA2.

I'll third that.

I own or have owned Pioneer 410, XA1, A2, A35, Onkyo 805, Oppo 983 and now Pioneer 51. The 51 does a decent job but I would never say it's in the same league as my 805 and Oppo 983. They are so much cleaner. I would put the 51 along with the XA1/A2 probably slightly behind the Pioneer 410 and A35, but that is going by memory.

Throw in an old, really crappy quality DVD and see just how bad it looks compared to an XA2. Trainspotting is a great example, horrible PQ.

I too have the Pioneer PRO 151FD. Every DVD player in my house does a better job upscaling SD DVD than the TV. For those with an Oppo or Reon based solution, it won't even be close!

you're running source direct to the TV with no processing and it looks unlike the original transfer? i'm not talking about adding edge enhancement etc to make it look "sharper" - i'm talking about true to the original.

if so, that's surprising. i find my older DVD's look much better source direct.

i said a little more than the $150 for the Toshiba, not a little more than $20. My blockbuster has around 50 BD titles on top of all new releases in BD - and blockbuster online will get them to you anywhere in the country. Any Best Buy will carry most titles to buy. It really can't be that scarce.

to each his own, i just personally think it's "polishing a turd" so to speak.

and about the 51FD, the source direct to a Pio panel is wonderful. i understand not everyone can get one of those though.

I'd rather watch "polished turd" as opposed to "turd" when there is no better version of the "turd" out there. Really, thej product is not for you, we get it. :rolleyes:

you're running source direct to the TV with no processing and it looks unlike the original transfer? i'm not talking about adding edge enhancement etc to make it look "sharper" - i'm talking about true to the original.

if so, that's surprising. i find my older DVD's look much better source direct.

Only hope for older DVDS is to resize to a smaller screen :)

that's really not true. my older dvd's can look very watchable w/source direct.

you keep touting this "source direct" thing. The signal is still upconverted by the TV (as opposed to the player). Hence making it to still be "polished turd". One method the "turd" is polished by the DVD player, your method it's polished by th TV.

with an upconverter, it is processed twice. this gives way to more artifacting. with source direct it is only upconverted once, by the final display. a lot of players can do this. i'm not saying the Toshiba won't be good, i'm just saying there are more practical all in one solutions. i'll stop arguing this now, clearly it's just my opinion in the crowd.

I'm not arguing, I'm just trying to get your logic. Once you input 1080 signal to the Pioneer panel, no further processing is done by the panel. So why do you think it's done twice when the processing is done in the player?