Well here is the new super upconverting DVD player Toshiba was talking about.

HD DVD is dead, and here is its DVD replacement from Toshiba.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/news/081508toshiba/

UPDATE:

Here is the first hands on accont of the XD-500E

http://marketnews.ca/news_detail.asp?nid=3994

I think I'll wait for hands-on review by reputable sources. Unless they use HQV, Anchor Bay, or some great chipset, I'm skeptical of Toshiba's claims.

Do I read that right? Toshiba's secret weapons are (1) edge enhancement, (2) a half assed digital 'dynamic contrast' (I have that on my Samsung LCD; it stays in the 'off' position), and some phoney baloney colour 'enhancer'?

Phooey....

"this is not a blu-ray killer." they've changed their tune, i see.
iirc, a few months ago it was supposed to be "as good as blu-ray".

i had my hopes up.:( silly me.:p

oh, i get it now.
they're gonna downplay it before release so when i comes out it'll blow every one and thing away.

sure, right.

What I want to know is if this is the player with the SRT tech:

http://www.soundsthemovie.com/srtflash/SRT%20Demo.html

I'm skeptical

Well Toshiba did a demonstartion of the Toshiba XDE-E500 comparing their $150 DVD player to a $70 unknown brand DVD player (http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1833609,00.html?cnn=yes) and not surprisingly the Time reporters said that there was a "subtle but noticeable sharpening of the image". The XDE technology will be used in upcoming Toshiba DVD players and will be heavily marketed by Toshiba. The Toshiba XDE-E500 was not compared to Blu-ray since it was "not meant to compete with or replace Blu-ray". CNET also saw the Toshiba XDE-E500 demonstration (http://reviews.cnet.com/video-players-and-recorders/toshiba-xd-e500/4505-6463_7-33224998.html?tag=prod.txt.1) and they are hoping to get a review sample sometime this week.

I'd buy one if its upscaling is at least as good as the XA-2.

http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-XD-E500-Upconverting-Extended-Detail/dp/B001D9IWIY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1219097498&sr=8-1

Someone buy one and send it to me, I'll test it against my Oppo 983 and Onkyo HD-805 (XA2). :D

This player will output film content at 1080p24, this is great.

http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/Search.do?c=1&searchType=user&keyword=XD-E500&searchSection=All#availability $149 which is cheaper than Amazon ($179)
http://www.circuitcity.com/IMAGE/product/enlarged600/top/EC.TOP.XDE500.CN.JPG

I'd buy one if its upscaling is at least as good as the XA-2.

http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-XD-E500-Upconverting-Extended-Detail/dp/B001D9IWIY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1219097498&sr=8-1
Someone buy one and send it to me, I'll test it against my Oppo 983 and Onkyo HD-805 (XA2). :D

yep. that's the competition.
if it's at least as good as my hd805 (xa2) i'll go for one.
for 1.5 bennies, i'll try one out and make my own decision.

Not to brag but the facts are here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14163177#post14163177

Not to brag but the facts are here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14163177#post14163177

:confused:
how so?
have you seen the image the new tosh puts out?
the oppo 983 has slightly better pq than the xa2/805 according to those who have compared the three.
and how are you bragging? about what?

i must be missing something. not the first time.

Not to brag but the facts are here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14163177#post14163177


what facts? :confused:

This player will output film content at 1080p24, this is great.

I'm curious as to how well this will work. Even when a DVD is progressively encoded, there are sometimes occasional cadence breaks, especially in older DVDs. Will it just show combing during these breaks like a PC software player does, or will it temporarily switch from 1080p24 to 1080p60 and then back again?

edit: n/m, I see from the Amazon link that it deinterlaces from 480i first instead of using 480p @24fps authored DVDs like the press release seems to indicate.

considering this player adds edge enhancement to sharpen picture, probably would look worse if you have a big screen.

considering this player adds edge enhancement to sharpen picture, probably would look worse if you have a big screen.

It's called "Sharp Mode" so I assume that it can be turned off. I probably won't be buying a player either way though since I already have a VP50Pro video processor for converting DVDs to 1080p24.

considering this player adds edge enhancement to sharpen picture, probably would look worse if you have a big screen.

Edge enhancement does not always look bad. It has gotten a bad name from when it is overdone. I have a projector and 106" screen and usually add a certain level of EE on SD DVD from my Toshiba XA2. The type of Toshiba EE is supposed to be different here as well. "Unlike traditional sharpness control, XDE technology analyzes the entire picture and adds edge enhancement precisely where it's needed."
Let's wait and see from more extensive technical and user reviews.

considering this player adds edge enhancement to sharpen picture, probably would look worse if you have a big screen.

It's called "Sharp Mode" so I assume that it can be turned off. I probably won't be buying a player either way though since I already have a VP50Pro video processor for converting DVDs to 1080p24.


Yes, it can be turned off. Check out more details here.

http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-XD-E500-Upconverting-Extended-Detail/dp/B001D9IWIY/?tag=dvdtown-20

This is not the cell processor version that does super resolution. Super Resolution will not be out this year. If you read how it enhances the image, it doesn't analyze the before and after frames to create extra details. This is just a smarter way to sharpen and create better color. Super resolution takes info from other frames to add detail in the current frame that is not apparent due to low resolution. However, this might be the king of up converters if done right, but super resolution will still be better and BR will obvious be the top.

This is not the cell processor version that does super resolution. Super Resolution will not be out this year. If you read how it enhances the image, it doesn't analyze the before and after frames to create extra details. This is just a smarter way to sharpen and create better color. Super resolution takes info from other frames to add detail in the current frame that is not apparent due to low resolution. However, this might be the king of up converters if done right, but super resolution will still be better and BR will obvious be the top.
Okay, now this is all starting to make more sense to me... and that now explains why it is soooo cheap.

This is not the cell processor version that does super resolution. Super Resolution will not be out this year.Do you have any evidence for either of those statements?


If you read how it enhances the image, it doesn't analyze the before and after frames to create extra details.There is no evidence that the SpursEngine can do multi-frame upscaling in real time (the demo that Toshiba showed at CES 2008 was made with 3:1 non-real time processing (http://crave.cnet.co.uk/laptops/0,39029450,49295004,00.htm)). As such if multi-frame upscaling isn't done that wouldn't necessarily mean that the SpursEngine is not used in the Toshiba XDE-E500.

what facts? :confused:
You guys still don't get it. Why do you think Toshiba added 24Hz SD playback to their best player ever produced with a firmware upgrade several months ago?

Do you think its reasonable that the same people who worked on optimizing HD-DVD were moved on to improved SD playback? Its pretty obvious that this is what occurred. In fact this Toshiba group had the vision and worked on the XA2 to prove their concepts. These guys are very experienced and know what they are doing!
Its a shame that hardly anyone noticed Toshiba's improved PQ work without having to be told so in press releases. But that is to be expected.
The least we can do to make up for our cluelessness is have someone from the press like Kris Deerring of Home Theater magazine interview them. Hint Hint!:)

:rolleyes:

This is obviously the spurs engine unit that people have been expecting for some time that was supposed to debut this year, around this time, at about this price point. It's absurd to think otherwise.

Yes, please tell me how its not, then feel stupid when any number of technical reviews confirm it is. They would not be introducing YET ANOTHER level of tech between conventional regular upconversion and spurs if that were the case.

Have some sense people.

Yes, it can be turned off. Check out more details here.

http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-XD-E500-Upconverting-Extended-Detail/dp/B001D9IWIY/?tag=dvdtown-20

if you turn that sharpness mode off, whats the point of paying 150dollars for the player?

I don't understand these threads. I have a 34inch sony xbr960 crt, and the difference to me is night and day between the formats.

Dont buy retail, buy online, the price difference from preordering is substantial, and walmart and other places will be lowering prices shortly as their purchase price from Warner is dropped in Sept. This will cause other studios to have to meet a lower cost to retailers, resulting in lower prices all around.

the $15 and $20 standard is coming quick.

you're doing yourself a disservice.

I don't understand these threads. I have a 34inch sony xbr960 crt, and the difference to me is night and day between the formats.

Dont buy retail, buy online, the price difference from preordering is substantial, and walmart and other places will be lowering prices shortly as their purchase price from Warner is dropped in Sept. This will cause other studios to have to meet a lower cost to retailers, resulting in lower prices all around.

the $15 and $20 standard is coming quick.

you're doing yourself a disservice.

While there is no doubt Blu Ray is a superior format for video and audio, it is content that is king and DVD's advantage in content is still growing - not shrinking. In that environment, investing in a good DVD player is important. In my opinion Toshiba does not have to make DVD look at good as Blue, as long as it is as good as Apple TV HD or HD on Demand from our cable providers, most folks will be happy. wait a minute, DVD upconverted on my B 200 already looks better than my Cox HD VoD movies :)

what i don't understand and people on a AV forums trying to make excuses to stay in with SD. Why bother getting a ps3/xbox360 when theres PS2 with 100x more games??

what i don't understand and people on a AV forums trying to make excuses to stay in with SD. Why bother getting a ps3/xbox360 when theres PS2 with 100x more games??
Poor comparison. PS2 doesn't have Gears of War, Mass Effect, Uncharted, etc.

With every(?) Blu-Ray also available on DVD, and countless DVDs not yet available on Blu, why shouldn't people want the best out of their collection.

Do you have any evidence for either of those statements?

Yes. By its very definition. Super Resolution is the process of extracting data from mulitple frame to create a high resolution single frame. By looking at the features of the XDE system, it is obvious that it does not contain this ability. So this is definitely not super resolution.

http://www.thedeemon.com/articles/what_is_super_resolution.html


There is no evidence that the SpursEngine can do multi-frame upscaling in real time (the demo that Toshiba showed at CES 2008 was made with 3:1 non-real time processing (http://crave.cnet.co.uk/laptops/0,39029450,49295004,00.htm)). As such if multi-frame upscaling isn't done that wouldn't necessarily mean that the SpursEngine is not used in the Toshiba XDE-E500.

I'm simply going by what is said. I don't think the spur engine is necessary since this XDE is only analyzing 1 frame to create a better image, unlike super resolution that does multi-frame analysis. So putting in a spur engine (PS3 level of power) would be expensive and a waste of processing power.

Poor comparison. PS2 doesn't have Gears of War, Mass Effect, Uncharted, etc.

With every(?) Blu-Ray also available on DVD, and countless DVDs not yet available on Blu, why shouldn't people want the best out of their collection.

I concour. But as a AVS forum, I expect people to want the best sound/pq as possible then I see threads like this and shake my head.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1057499

I concour. But as a AVS forum, I expect people to want the best sound/pq as possible then I see threads like this and shake my head.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1057499

If you owned hundreds of movies on DVD would you throw them away or keep them and buy a player that will show them in the best possible way. Even if you decided to replace them all with Blue Ray you would never be able to find them. Blue Ray is a fine option and I will definitely get one but need an SD player too.

Super Resolution will not be out this year. If you read how it enhances the image, it doesn't analyze the before and after frames to create extra details. This is just a smarter way to sharpen and create better color. Super resolution takes info from other frames to add detail in the current frame that is not apparent due to low resolution. However, this might be the king of up converters if done right, but super resolution will still be better and BR will obvious be the top.That's odd... Toshiba has several fall release LCD models with SRT. link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1057476).

Ordered my XD-E500 yesterday, it shipped today.

Look forward to checking this out - I've still got loads of regular DVDs that I want to watch again, but would like the best upscaling available, since all my displays are HD.

So what's the verdict -is this unit using the Super-Resolution that Toshiba mentioned earlier this year, not?

So what's the verdict -is this unit using the Super-Resolution that Toshiba mentioned earlier this year, not?

it is NOT. Its adding edge enhancement. I believe the super res tech uses the Cell processor which this one lacks.

Ordered my XD-E500 yesterday, it shipped today.

Look forward to checking this out - I've still got loads of regular DVDs that I want to watch again, but would like the best upscaling available, since all my displays are HD.

So what's the verdict -is this unit using the Super-Resolution that Toshiba mentioned earlier this year, not?

Please let us know what you think. I just got my grandparents a 40in lcd but decided not to get them a blu ray player, since they are technophobes and would never pay the premium that bd's command. I am really interested in this player, althought it does seem a little expensive for just a dvd player. Is it twice as good as 70 dollar sony or pioneer. Would a non-vivdeophile like my grandparents be able to see the differece or is it subtle. Also would they be able to handle the machine, from the amazon page it seems to suggest the need for different settings based on the source material.

Also if you could compare the upconversion of the A35 which outputs 1080/24 to the XdE at 1080/24 i would really appreciate it.

So what's the verdict -is this unit using the Super-Resolution that Toshiba mentioned earlier this year, not?

Yes it is.

what i don't understand and people on a AV forums trying to make excuses to stay in with SD. Why bother getting a ps3/xbox360 when theres PS2 with 100x more games??

The reason for this is that SD DVD upconverted can equal or even better the quality of some HD sources (or what people have accepted to be HD). Where I live I get over 20Mbps internet connection and still Cox HD VoD often looks worse than upconverted DVD. So, unless you don't like the SD tag associated with DVD, you're probably going to be able to enjoy it. It reminds me of the people who used to watch Blu Ray movies with their bit rate meters on, and a low bit rate movie was automatically dismissed as being sub standard. So, really, as an AV enthusiast it's about how much you focus on the specs, v. the experience.

The success of the Wii (selling better than both PS3 and xbox combined) shows that people will pick 'entertainment' quality over pure graphics. At some point we reach a point of diminishing returns.

There are a few for whom DVD and Blu Ray is night-and-day. I am guessing these are folks with very large screens or very poor DVD players, or both :)

Yes it is.How did you determine that? I can't find anything that indicates it has SRT.

I'm curious as to how well this will work. Even when a DVD is progressively encoded, there are sometimes occasional cadence breaks, especially in older DVDs. Will it just show combing during these breaks like a PC software player does, or will it temporarily switch from 1080p24 to 1080p60 and then back again?

edit: n/m, I see from the Amazon link that it deinterlaces from 480i first instead of using 480p @24fps authored DVDs like the press release seems to indicate.


AFAIK, there is no such thing as a standard def DVD authored at 480p/24fps. Every DVD is 480i/30 with most film-based ones having the alt_repeat flags in them.

The reason for this is that SD DVD upconverted can equal or even better the quality of some HD sources (or what people have accepted to be HD). Where I live I get over 20Mbps internet connection and still Cox HD VoD often looks worse than upconverted DVD. So, unless you don't like the SD tag associated with DVD, you're probably going to be able to enjoy it. It reminds me of the people who used to watch Blu Ray movies with their bit rate meters on, and a low bit rate movie was automatically dismissed as being sub standard. So, really, as an AV enthusiast it's about how much you focus on the specs, v. the experience.

The success of the Wii (selling better than both PS3 and xbox combined) shows that people will pick 'entertainment' quality over pure graphics. At some point we reach a point of diminishing returns.

There are a few for whom DVD and Blu Ray is night-and-day. I am guessing these are folks with very large screens or very poor DVD players, or both :)

Well said. Many Videophiles own thousands of SD DVDs, some of which may never even make it to BR.

You guys still don't get it. Why do you think Toshiba added 24Hz SD playback to their best player ever produced with a firmware upgrade several months ago?

Do you think its reasonable that the same people who worked on optimizing HD-DVD were moved on to improved SD playback? Its pretty obvious that this is what occurred. In fact this Toshiba group had the vision and worked on the XA2 to prove their concepts. These guys are very experienced and know what they are doing!
Its a shame that hardly anyone noticed Toshiba's improved PQ work without having to be told so in press releases. But that is to be expected.
The least we can do to make up for our cluelessness is have someone from the press like Kris Deerring of Home Theater magazine interview them. Hint Hint!:)


Still your statements are conjenctures / opinions. Not facts. Still waiting for the facts.

I concour. But as a AVS forum, I expect people to want the best sound/pq as possible then I see threads like this and shake my head.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1057499

Can you please tell me what should I do with my 2,000+ DVD titles? Chuck them all? You want to buy them off me AND give me the blu-ray replacements? :rolleyes:

The below is the first real hands on experience with the XD-E500.



http://marketnews.ca/news_detail.asp?nid=3994


Looks, kind of promising, I just wonder how much edge enhancement is going on.

Apparently there is no doubt its better than Toshiba's standard Upconverter.

They should have had one hooked up against an Oppo.

Yes. By its very definition. Super Resolution is the process of extracting data from mulitple frame to create a high resolution single frame. By looking at the features of the XDE system, it is obvious that it does not contain this ability. So this is definitely not super resolution.What you stated though was that super resolution wasn't coming out this year and what evidence do you have for that? After all there is a lot of evidence that super resolution will be used on other Toshiba products this year. Also the other statement you made is that the SpursEngine is not used in this player and what evidence do you have for that?


I'm simply going by what is said. I don't think the spur engine is necessary since this XDE is only analyzing 1 frame to create a better image, unlike super resolution that does multi-frame analysis. So putting in a spur engine (PS3 level of power) would be expensive and a waste of processing power.I have never seen any evidence that the SpursEngine could do real time multi-frame upscaling. Have you ever heard Toshiba state that it could?

Also in terms of specs the SpursEngine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpursEngine) has 4 SPEs (compared to 7 SPEs for the PS3) and runs at 1.5 GHz (compared to 3.2 GHz for the PS3). That means that in terms of SPE processing it has less than a third of the processing power of the PS3.

The below is the first real hands on experience with the XD-E500.

http://marketnews.ca/news_detail.asp?nid=3994Note that this is based on their impression of a Toshiba demonstration like the one put on for other journalists from CNET and Time last week. The Toshiba representatives compared it to the Toshiba SD-6100 but this time they also decided to compare it to Blu-ray though remember that they got to set everything up with this demonstration. Here is what the author of the article said based on the Toshiba demonstration (unknown 42" Toshiba LCDs, couch 8 feet away, Spider-man 3, Toshiba XDE-E500, and Samsung BD-P1500 player):

From eight feet, the XDE picture looked sharper even than the Blu-ray version, though a discerning viewer could see that there was more real detail (as opposed to edge enhancement) on the Blu-ray Disc. From four feet, the additional resolution of the Blu-ray Disc was obvious; it just looked more realistic in every way.

Though it is nice to see another preview what I really would like to see is an in depth review of the Toshiba XDE-E500 from someone who would really dig into how it compares to other DVD players.

I'm in the same boat as most of you guys. Some LDs I waited God knows how long to show up on DVD much less HDM. Anyway, the only thing stopping me from running out to buy this is my fear that another model will come around Christmas with that new DVD-Download standard. But then $150 is not that much - ah the agony!

I dont know i have the ABT chip in the oppo 983 for scaling, and my flea is a dedicated processor for detail enhancement and noise reduction, I dont see this being better then a dedicated processor that specializes in various types of NR.

That leaves only the color or contrast mode of use but im not sure, my projector already has really punchy colors and I dont need them to get anymore vibrant. And if its a better upscaler then the abt i also will be surprised.


I think what we will see is this will be the best bargain player for 150.

Can you please tell me what should I do with my 2,000+ DVD titles? Chuck them all? You want to buy them off me AND give me the blu-ray replacements? :rolleyes:


look up straw man argument and get back to me.

AFAIK, there is no such thing as a standard def DVD authored at 480p/24fps. Every DVD is 480i/30 with most film-based ones having the alt_repeat flags in them.

Nah, nearly all major studio releases are at least 99% progressive. I've watched many DVDs on my HTPC and re-encoded movies for personal use many times and have seen this for myself. See the "3-2 Pulldown" section here: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html

Like it says, there are many ways to encode film, but using 1 MPEG picture for each film frame is the most common.

...the only thing stopping me from running out to buy this is my fear that another model will come around Christmas with that new DVD-Download standard. But then $150 is not that much - ah the agony!
My thoughts EXACTLY... I think I will wait to hear from some real people who have actual experience with this player to decide if I should jump at it or wait for the next big thing...

Can you please tell me what should I do with my 2,000+ DVD titles? Chuck them all? You want to buy them off me AND give me the blu-ray replacements? :rolleyes:
Hear hear...

Even when I bought 2 or 3 D-Theater players and starting getting tapes for them, I still went and bought a new Denon 3910 because I wanted the best (at the time) from DVDs.

It's still the same today. Even with multiple HD DVD and Bluray players, I STILL want to make the best of DVDs, because the simple fact is that there is much more on DVD than on Bluray, and his will continue to be the case for a long time (despite PR to the contrary). Not to mention my existing investment in my DVD library.

In fact, I would be so bold as to suggest that the true videophile/PQ Junkie-type would want to have the best DVD playback option in his (or her) personal arsenal even if they have Bluray.

If SRT blows previous upscaling tech away, then $150 is nothing to add it to my rack.

And if $150 stops some DVD owners from upgrading to Bluray, then one can only blame the still-too-high price tag of full featured BD players, not improving DVD tech...

IMHO, of course...

"From eight feet, the XDE picture looked sharper even than the Blu-ray version, though a discerning viewer could see that there was more real detail (as opposed to edge enhancement) on the Blu-ray Disc. From four feet, the additional resolution of the Blu-ray Disc was obvious; it just looked more realistic in every way."

This is going to be a VERY big potential problem for Bluray if that is the consensus, because the average viewer who already thinks dvd is good enough will take this tech and run with it.

I personally can most certainly see a difference in Bluray and SD, but a particularly sharp SD DVD (even without the extra detail level) will surely keep average joe away from Bluray's higher overall cost.

"From eight feet, the XDE picture looked sharper even than the Blu-ray version, though a discerning viewer could see that there was more real detail (as opposed to edge enhancement) on the Blu-ray Disc. From four feet, the additional resolution of the Blu-ray Disc was obvious; it just looked more realistic in every way."

This is going to be a VERY big potential problem for Bluray if that is the consensus, because the average viewer who already thinks dvd is good enough will take this tech and run with it.

That would be music to the ears of Toshiba, who stands to benefit the most if DVD continues to be the primary optical media for years to come regardless of whether BD grows or not. Who knows, in the long run Toshiba could even recoup or write-off the money it lost on HD-DVD if this new upscaling technology catches on (or is succesful enough that it can be passed down to Chinese branded DVD players when the economies of scale kick in). Me? I have an HDTV with a Realta HQV on board to decode my 480i DVD's. I'll pass! :)

I'm curious as to how well this will work. Even when a DVD is progressively encoded, there are sometimes occasional cadence breaks, especially in older DVDs. Will it just show combing during these breaks like a PC software player does, or will it temporarily switch from 1080p24 to 1080p60 and then back again?



You don't get combing on the A30/35 when the cadence breaks, at least I've never seen any. What you do get is a horrific stutter. If this one is truly 'smarter,' it may be able to intelligently manufacture frames to hold cadence. Guess we'll just have to see.

I'm very curious to see how this stacks up against the XA2, A30/35, and the Oppo 983. If it can match, or beat, the Oppo, this thing would be a steal at $149.

Okay guys...I am a real sucker for new technology. I tested and returned the Hauupague HDDVR earlier this summer. I own 5 DVHS machines, 5 HDDVD players a PS3 and a 360. I have over 200 BD/HDDVD combined and hundreds of homemade DVHS tapes.

I also despise standard dvds.

But I just had to try this thing so I just put my order in...it will be here Thursday. I will run it through its paces on a variety of screens ( two projectors-92" screen, 50" plasma, 42" plasma).

I do not have a high opinion of upscaling machines. Frankly My Panny panel upscales as well as my XA2. Even so...I can't bring myself to watch most SD DVDs.

But still...would love to be suprised. My wife has a wide variety of standard dvds that I can use.

Sharper than BD without EE halos??? I gotta see this for myself :)

It will be interesting to compare notes with others.

I'm very curious to see how this stacks up against the XA2, A30/35, and the Oppo 983. If it can match, or beat, the Oppo, this thing would be a steal at $149.I am curious to see how the Toshiba XDE-E500 (http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvd/product.asp?model=xd-e500) compares to the OPPO DV-980H (http://www.oppodigital.com/dv980h/default.asp) in terms of both upscaling quality and features.

How did you determine that? I can't find anything that indicates it has SRT.

Stereodude,

Toshiba is being coy about the whole issue. If you read their blurb on amazon they clearly imply that this is the upscaling technology that they have been raving about. Yes it also has uber edge sharpening but they also imply (with their illustration) that the entire process includes frame creation and produces an end product that is "near HD".

I honestly don't think they have anything else in their back pocket ready to be released.

Stereodude,

Toshiba is being coy about the whole issue. If you read their blurb on amazon they clearly imply that this is the upscaling technology that they have been raving about. Yes it also has uber edge sharpening but they also imply (with their illustration) that the entire process includes frame creation and produces an end product that is "near HD".

I honestly don't think they have anything else in their back pocket ready to be released.

It would be incredibly stupid for them to release multiple new ways to upscale. This is indeed spurs engine, it makes zero business sense for it to be anything else.

Review has been updated with a bit more info.

http://marketnews.ca/news_detail.asp?nid=3994

It would be incredibly stupid for them to release multiple new ways to upscale. This is indeed spurs engine, it makes zero business sense for it to be anything else.Ok, but why aren't they calling it SRT? Why are they releasing LCD TVs with SRT? Why do the descriptions of what it's doing not mention gaining detail from adjacent frames?

It would be incredibly stupid for them to release multiple new ways to upscale. This is indeed spurs engine, it makes zero business sense for it to be anything else.

The XDE does NOT have any type of cell chip in it (be it spurs, etc.)

Do you know how I know?

Because Toshiba would be advertising that fact as a selling point, just like they have with the new Qosmio, and just like they will with their new regza TVs.

You don't hide positive marketing features. Instead, you market them.

If this had a spurs chip in it, it would be plastered over every piece of info written about it, as Toshiba would be trumpeting the power of the Cell in the upconversion process.

Do we see that? Nope.

We see Toshiba talking up three customization "filters" if you will, allowed by the following:
xDE uses a chipset with parameters specially developed for Toshiba and a combination of user-controlled picture improvement techniques including upconversion, edge enhancement, and color remapping to deliver a new level of Near HD video quality from Standard DVDs.

http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-XD-E500-Upconverting-Extended-Detail/dp/B001D9IWIY

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Nah, nearly all major studio releases are at least 99% progressive. I've watched many DVDs on my HTPC and re-encoded movies for personal use many times and have seen this for myself. See the "3-2 Pulldown" section here: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html

Like it says, there are many ways to encode film, but using 1 MPEG picture for each film frame is the most common.

I still think I'm correct, i.e. there are no DVDs encoded as progressive.

From your link:

In short, the content on a DVD is interlaced conceptually, and is stored in interlaced sequences. Frames can be marked "progressive" to help compression, but are not always marked that way, even when it would be correct to do so.

I still think I'm correct, i.e. there are no DVDs encoded as progressive.

From your link:

Yeah, and it says right after that "In interlaced sequences, the encoder can either keep the fields separate, or combine them together into one frame, whichever is best for compression purposes."

24 frames obviously compresses better than 60 fields, so this is what is mostly used.

24 frames obviously compresses better than 60 fields, so this is what is mostly used.


So you're still saying that content on 99% of DVDs is stored as 480/24fps???

DVDs are stored as fields, not what you speculate above.

Please read the third paragraph in this link:

http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#3.8

Specifically:

..the video from each film frame is split into two video fields —240 lines in one field, and 240 lines in the other— and encoded as separate fields in the MPEG-2 stream.

Your assumptions about progressive frame storage on SD-DVDs is just incorrect.

Review has been updated with a bit more info.

http://marketnews.ca/news_detail.asp?nid=3994

The Sharp mode activates edge-enhancement and noise-reduction processing after 1080p upconversion. This makes the picture look cleaner and crisper, Toshiba says. The Color mode performs intelligent colour remapping, enhancing blues and greens. The Contrast mode boosts black level in dark scenes, bringing out detail in dark areas.

Edge enhancement, DNR, color manipulation and gamma curve twisting.

Well f*** me with a chainsaw.

So you're still saying that content on 99% of DVDs is stored as 480/24fps???

DVDs are stored as fields, not what you speculate above.

Please read the third paragraph in this link:

http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#3.8

Specifically:



Your assumptions about progressive frame storage on SD-DVDs is just incorrect.That still doesn't change the fact that it's possible to recover the original 480p24 frames from the disc.

That still doesn't change the fact that it's possible to recover the original 480p24 frames from the disc.

I never said it wasn't possible, and of course I know it to be true.

I am taking issue with these statements:

Even when a DVD is progressively encoded, there are sometimes occasional cadence breaks, especially in older DVDs.

This should be stated "Even when a DVD is progressively flagged".

and:

Nah, nearly all major studio releases are at least 99% progressive.

False.

Like it says, there are many ways to encode film, but using 1 MPEG picture for each film frame is the most common.

False.

24 frames obviously compresses better than 60 fields, so this is what is mostly used.

False.

Believe what you want, man. I've seen plenty of DVDs that were flagged as interlaced yet contained a progressive stream (and vice versa) to know that flags don't mean jack as to the actual video encode.

Believe what you want, man. I've seen plenty of DVDs that were flagged as interlaced yet contained a progressive stream (and vice versa) to know that flags don't mean jack as to the actual video encode.

It doesn't matter what your HTPC is reporting to you. The argument you are making is fundamently incorrect as part of the DVD standards. This was pointed out not only in the link you provided to me, but also in a very technical DVD FAQ that I linked above.

All DVDs are encoded as interlaced fields, regardless of the original source content. Embedded progressive flags, or cadence detection, is what we use to determine the orginal 24fps frame.

All DVDs are encoded as interlaced fields, regardless of the original source content. Embedded progressive flags, or cadence detection, is what we use to determine the orginal 24fps frame.Now this I will definitely take exception to. I can and have authored a fully compliant (per the authoring tool) DVD-9 using a 480p30 mpeg-2 file (that I compressed so I know it's really progressive). It plays back fine, but does not have interlaced mpeg-2 content on the disc.

Ok, but why aren't they calling it SRT? Why are they releasing LCD TVs with SRT? Why do the descriptions of what it's doing not mention gaining detail from adjacent frames?

The XDE does NOT have any type of cell chip in it (be it spurs, etc.)
Do you know how I know?

Because Toshiba would be advertising that fact as a selling point, just like they have with the new Qosmio, and just like they will with their new regza TVs.
You don't hide positive marketing features. Instead, you market them.

If this had a spurs chip in it, it would be plastered over every piece of info written about it, as Toshiba would be trumpeting the power of the Cell in the upconversion process.
Do we see that? Nope.

We see Toshiba talking up three customization "filters" if you will, allowed by the following:
http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-XD-E500-Upconverting-Extended-Detail/dp/B001D9IWIY
Sorry to burst your bubble.
perhaps this is just version '1' or 'a' of a spurs eng. player, and players with 'improved' spurs hardware/fw are yet to come. which would be expected.

perhaps this is just version '1' or 'a' of a spurs eng. player, and players with 'improved' spurs hardware/fw are yet to come. which would be expected.

Well, if it was version "1" or "a", that would still imply that it had a version "1" or "a'" spurs chip. Which would still count as....a spurs chip!

Which would be advertised accordingly.

But it is not being advertised...at all.

This is contrary to how Toshiba has advertised their new Qosmio, which DOES have a spurs chip:
Toshiba Quad–Core HD Processor

With a show of hands our new Quad Core HD Processor wins the award for coolest new technology. Use hand gesture controls to start, pause and rewind your entertainment. Upscale your DVDs from standard– to high-definition. Find your favorite parts of movies with face indexing. And take advantage of real–time video encoding to speed downloads from your camcorder.

Lights! Camera! Action! (And now, faster editing and sharper images too!) All thanks to the new Toshiba Quad Core HD Processor in select Qosmio® G55 laptops, featuring revolutionary Cell architecture. What’s in it for you? Video editing in a faction of the normal time. DVDs “upscaled” to high-definition. Plus, Gesture Control, Face Navigation and more. Yes, the future is here. And smart Toshiba technology puts it right at your fingertips.


http://explore.toshiba.com/laptops/qosmio/G50

Tell me again why they would not be advertising the hell out of the spurs chip if it was in the xDE???

Now this I will definitely take exception to. I can and have authored a fully compliant (per the authoring tool) DVD-9 using a 480p30 mpeg-2 file (that I compressed so I know it's really progressive). It plays back fine, but does not have interlaced mpeg-2 content on the disc.

I believe you. I should have stated "all commercially made DVDs are encoded with interlaced fields".

jd213 indicated that 99% of all major studio releases are encoded progressively. This is what I am taking exception to.

I seem to remember Joe Kane wanted to author the original SD DVD of DVE at 24fps, but couldn't get that to work.

[QUOTE=bt12483
Tell me again why they would not be advertising the hell out of the spurs chip if it was in the xDE???[/QUOTE]

i definitely agree about the advertising. i would think they'd really be pushing that point.

LOL... from toshibas own mouth

http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvd/product.asp?model=XD-E500

"Viewing 24 frames per second requires content created in 480p / 24 frames/sec and an HD display capable of accepting a 1080p/24 Hz signal."

Since that does NOT exist whats the point?

Well, the (film based) DVD content was created at 480/24p, it's just stored in interlaced fields. Their player will either have to read the progressive flags, or have really really good cadence detection.

The XDE does NOT have any type of cell chip in it (be it spurs, etc.)

Do you know how I know?

Because Toshiba would be advertising that fact as a selling point, just like they have with the new Qosmio, and just like they will with their new regza TVs.

You don't hide positive marketing features. Instead, you market them.

If this had a spurs chip in it, it would be plastered over every piece of info written about it, as Toshiba would be trumpeting the power of the Cell in the upconversion process.

Do we see that? Nope.

We see Toshiba talking up three customization "filters" if you will, allowed by the following:

http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-XD-E500-Upconverting-Extended-Detail/dp/B001D9IWIY

Sorry to burst your bubble.

I can't believe you actually tried to use an Amazon description to prove your point.

The spurs engine WAS created for Toshiba, specifically.

I can't believe you actually tried to use an Amazon description to prove your point.

Wow.

Do you know who provided the Amazon description, wiseguy?
http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff334/necessaryorder/proof.jpg

Oh, and here is the OFFICIAL Toshiba spec sheet:
http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/tacpassets-images/models/xd-e500/docs/xd-e500_spec.pdf
http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff334/necessaryorder/spec.jpg

Please, show me where there is ANY reference made to the spurs chip.

The spurs engine WAS created for Toshiba, specifically.

Yeah, for the Qosmio G55 and graphics boards (at least thus far).

Please, since YOU are sooo certain the XDE has the spurs chip. PROVE IT.

Please show us all Toshiba documentation that references the xde having the spurs chip. Similar to how they advertise the G55 as having the spurs chip, shown below (from here (http://explore.toshiba.com/laptops/qosmio/G50/G55-Q802)):
http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff334/necessaryorder/cell.jpg

There is no parallel description in the XDE spec sheet because the XDE DOES NOT have the spurs chip!

Put up or shut up. Your turn.

:rolleyes:

This is obviously the spurs engine unit that people have been expecting for some time that was supposed to debut this year, around this time, at about this price point. It's absurd to think otherwise.

Yes, please tell me how its not, then feel stupid when any number of technical reviews confirm it is. They would not be introducing YET ANOTHER level of tech between conventional regular upconversion and spurs if that were the case.

Have some sense people.

You are going to eat these words my friend. None of Toshiba's own documentation supports your little theory.

On the contrast, the G55, which IS known to have the spurs chip, fully discloses as much.

So why the distinction?

If the XDE had spurs, Toshiba would have said so since it would be a HUGE selling point.

The fact that they haven't means that it does not.

Please find us some official literature (like the G55 spec sheet above) that supports your claim.


WHile you are searching for some proof of your claim, care to comment on this comment from CNET:
Since then, we've heard various rumors about Toshiba developing a super-upscaling DVD player using a Cell processor, and all other kinds of wild speculation.

Monday morning, Toshiba officially announced its new DVD upconversion technology called XDE, as well as the first DVD player to feature the technology, the XD-E500, which is available now with a suggested retail price of $150.
http://reviews.cnet.com/video-players-and-recorders/toshiba-xd-e500/4505-6463_7-33224998.html?hhTest=1

My guess is spurs engine dvd player would be alot more than 150dollars considering it would need a CPU, GPU and memory.

My guess from the description of what this thing does is that maybe they had a couple hundred thousand REON chips lying around after the HD DVD production lines went down and decided to put them to use in an up converting DVD player which will introduce the "XDE" brand to the public and get a player into the stores now, while they finish getting an SRT DVD stand-alone player finalized.

My guess from the description of what this thing does is that maybe they had a couple hundred thousand REON chips lying around after the HD DVD production lines went down and decided to put them to use in...

Now that makes perfect sense. Surely they had purchasing commitments for some of the key components of HD DVD so what better way to honor those than to actually use them?

Now that makes perfect sense. Surely they had purchasing commitments for some of the key components of HD DVD so what better way to honor those than to actually use them?

$150 for a Reon based upscaler would be a tremendous value. I am not sure Silicon Optix would like that either.

Someone buy it and crack it open already! :mad:

My guess from the description of what this thing does is that maybe they had a couple hundred thousand REON chips lying around after the HD DVD production lines went down and decided to put them to use in an up converting DVD player which will introduce the "XDE" brand to the public and get a player into the stores now, while they finish getting an SRT DVD stand-alone player finalized.

i sort of wondered about something like that my self.
good way to get rid of them and recoup a little cash.

I believe you. I should have stated "all commercially made DVDs are encoded with interlaced fields".

jd213 indicated that 99% of all major studio releases are encoded progressively. This is what I am taking exception to.

I seem to remember Joe Kane wanted to author the original SD DVD of DVE at 24fps, but couldn't get that to work.

The proper way to encode a DVD for a filmbased source.

Is to encode the movie in 23,976P with pulldown flags.

To encode the movie interlace is ineffective and not recommendable.


Many confuses that the pulldown flags makes the encode look like its 480/59,96i but in reality the encode is 480/23,976P with pulldown flags.

The proper way to encode a DVD for a filmbased source.

Is to encode the movie in 23,976P with pulldown flags.

To encode the movie interlace is ineffective and not recommendable.


Many confuses that the pulldown flags makes the encode look like its 480/59,96i but in reality the encode is 480/23,976P with pulldown flags.

It's stored 480i/60 on the disc. :)
Cheers.

My guess from the description of what this thing does is that maybe they had a couple hundred thousand REON chips lying around after the HD DVD production lines went down and decided to put them to use in an up converting DVD player which will introduce the "XDE" brand to the public and get a player into the stores now, while they finish getting an SRT DVD stand-alone player finalized.

That could be exactly what happened

Think about it, they are claiming a contrast and sharpness and color filter for the new DVD upconverter.

Well, the Reon players have Edge Enhancement, Just punch it to level 2.

The Reon players have an in player contrast setting, Just punch it way up.

And fianally the Reon players have a color enhancer, Just punch it way up.

I wonder if Toshiba just basically used the Reon chip, and changed the way the settings look in the player???????

Also I wouldn't be surprised if the 4th generation HD DVD bodies that Toshiba was working on before they cancelled HD DVD, look a lot like the XD-E500's.

That could be exactly what happened

Think about it, they are claiming a contrast and sharpness and color filter for the new DVD upconverter.

Well, the Reon players have Edge Enhancement, Just punch it to level 2.

The Reon players have an in player contrast setting, Just punch it way up.

And fianally the Reon players have a color enhancer, Just punch it way up.

I wonder if Toshiba just basically used the Reon chip, and changed the way the settings look in the player???????

Also I wouldn't be surprised if the 4th generation HD DVD bodies that Toshiba was working on before they cancelled HD DVD, look a lot like the XD-E500's.

If they did just use the Reon chip that's a patented chip and I would think they would have to acknowledge that in the specs as the XA2 did. I don't think that's what it is unless they modified the technology by agreement with the manufacturer and further agreed they didn't have to acknowledge the source design. But the original Reon chip? I don't think so.

REON was only used in the XA2 which was no longer being made anymore...so I doubt these are just extra chips.

I do agree on the body style...if anyone remembers that slide from CES 2008 it looks very familiar...

That could be exactly what happened

Think about it, they are claiming a contrast and sharpness and color filter for the new DVD upconverter.

Well, the Reon players have Edge Enhancement, Just punch it to level 2.

The Reon players have an in player contrast setting, Just punch it way up.

And fianally the Reon players have a color enhancer, Just punch it way up.

I wonder if Toshiba just basically used the Reon chip, and changed the way the settings look in the player???????

Also I wouldn't be surprised if the 4th generation HD DVD bodies that Toshiba was working on before they cancelled HD DVD, look a lot like the XD-E500's.

My guess from the description of what this thing does is that maybe they had a couple hundred thousand REON chips lying around after the HD DVD production lines went down and decided to put them to use in an up converting DVD player which will introduce the "XDE" brand to the public and get a player into the stores now, while they finish getting an SRT DVD stand-alone player finalized.Now that makes perfect sense. Surely they had purchasing commitments for some of the key components of HD DVD so what better way to honor those than to actually use them?That could be exactly what happened

Think about it, they are claiming a contrast and sharpness and color filter for the new DVD upconverter.

Well, the Reon players have Edge Enhancement, Just punch it to level 2.

The Reon players have an in player contrast setting, Just punch it way up.

And fianally the Reon players have a color enhancer, Just punch it way up.

I wonder if Toshiba just basically used the Reon chip, and changed the way the settings look in the player???????Does anyone have any evidence that there were "a couple hundred thousand REON chips lying around"? After all production on the HD-XA2 ended long before the HD DVD production lines stopped so that looks to me like some very unlikely speculation. Also is there any evidence that a well known upscaling chip is used in the Toshiba XDE-E500? Toshiba was happy to advertise the upscaling chips they used in their HD DVD players (Reon for the HD-XA2 and various Anchor Bay chips for the rest) but so far the only thing I have seen advertised for the Toshiba XDE-E500 is XDE.

don't you think if they had buncha reon chips laying around it would have gone in to the A35 and not discontinued with the XA2?

I don't think Toshiba could afford to release a $150 Reon-based player -- at $250-300 maybe, but not at $150.

I just read a review by Bill Cortner of the Toshiba XDE500 DVD player (he may be somewhat biased since he supported HD DVD). He rates VHS at a 1 out of 10, DVD (480p not upconverted) at 3 and Blu-Ray at 10. He gives the best upconverters on the market a 6 out of 10 and the XDE gets an 8.2 out of 10! He says it isn't a Blu-Ray killer, but anyone with a DVD collection needs one of these things. Apparently it completely demolished his Silicon Optix equipped Onkyo DVHD805. According to him the XDE500 is much sharper and also produces much better and crisper colour. He claims it looks like true HD in terms of sharpness and colour. Anyway, I'll definitely be looking into one or two of these players - the price is right if it's as good as some are saying. Someone on another forum got permission from him to post the review in its entirety and that's where I saw it.

I just read a review by Bill Cortner of the Toshiba XDE500 DVD player (he may be somewhat biased since he supported HD DVD). He rates VHS at a 1 out of 10, DVD (480p not upconverted) at 3 and Blu-Ray at 10. He gives the best upconverters on the market a 6 out of 10 and the XDE gets an 8.2 out of 10! He says it isn't a Blu-Ray killer, but anyone with a DVD collection needs one of these things. Apparently it completely demolished his Silicon Optix equipped Onkyo DVHD805. According to him the XDE500 is much sharper and also produces much better and crisper colour. He claims it looks like true HD in terms of sharpness and colour. Anyway, I'll definitely be looking into one or two of these players - the price is right if it's as good as some are saying. Someone on another forum got permission from him to post the review in its entirety and that's where I saw it.

Where can we read his review? What forum?

John

Where can we read his review? What forum?

John

See

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=783296

He raves about this thing

"Stated simply, this Toshiba SuperUpConverter, which was renamed "XDE" absolutely eats/annihilates the Silicon Optix HQV Reon, and words can not even describe what it does to [formerly] world-class/award-winning UpConverters like the Oppo DV-981HD
and the ABT-equipped 3rd generation Toshiba HD DVD players.

Look, unlike the big review sites... I have absolutely no axe to grind here. This isn't my business, it's my hobby, and I own...

(2) Oppo DV-981HD
(2) Toshiba HD-A35
(4) Onkyo DV-HD805"


"Back to the SuperUpConverter...
How good is it? OMG! This DVD player is a revelation! It greatly increases detail, but does not increase noise/artifacts. It was astonishing, and a little sad to watch this $149 player produce a picture that mas MUCH more detailed AND much cleaner than the Silicon Optix equipped Onkyo DV-HD805
Normally when you increase "sharpness", you increase "noise" But there isn't the slightest hint of that happening with XDE. Yet it's not only the detail/sharpness that leaps ahead of any other UpConverter, it's everything! The color for example looks like you washed tobacco/nicotine off your screen when going from the Oppo DV-981HD, Toshiba HD-A35 or Onkyo DV-HD805
to the SuperUpConverter. That's the thing... True high-definition video isn't just sharper, it's also got much better/more crisp color. But the Toshiba XD-E500 gives you BOTH the sharpness you expect from high-definition AND that crisp/vivid color!

What about side-effects, artifacts or problems? Frankly, I got eye-strain trying to find something, anything that the SuperUpConverter was getting "wrong" that the Silicon Optix HQV Reon was getting "right" The verdict? Nada. Whatever artifacts were visible on the XDE device were also
present and visible on the other conventional UpConverters."

"The Toshiba XD-E500 at all times looked like TRUE HIGH DEFINITION in terms of sharpness and color. It literally blew me away, and it is without a doubt the very best UpConverter I have ever seen. This player's radical new approach of analyzing 9 frames of video in real time is a quantum leap forward in upscaling mechanics that deserves some kind of major tech/achievement award. I want to repeat something to make sure you caught it... The Toshiba XD-E500 at all times looked like TRUE HIGH DEFINITION in terms of sharpness and color."



Mine will arrive Later Today...I can't wait!

He raves about this thing

"Stated simply, this Toshiba SuperUpConverter, which was renamed "XDE" absolutely eats/annihilates the Silicon Optix HQV Reon, and words can not even describe what it does to [formerly] world-class/award-winning UpConverters like the Oppo DV-981HD
and the ABT-equipped 3rd generation Toshiba HD DVD players.

Look, unlike the big review sites... I have absolutely no axe to grind here. This isn't my business, it's my hobby, and I own...

(2) Oppo DV-981HD
(2) Toshiba HD-A35
(4) Onkyo DV-HD805"


"Back to the SuperUpConverter...
How good is it? OMG! This DVD player is a revelation! It greatly increases detail, but does not increase noise/artifacts. It was astonishing, and a little sad to watch this $149 player produce a picture that mas MUCH more detailed AND much cleaner than the Silicon Optix equipped Onkyo DV-HD805
Normally when you increase "sharpness", you increase "noise" But there isn't the slightest hint of that happening with XDE. Yet it's not only the detail/sharpness that leaps ahead of any other UpConverter, it's everything! The color for example looks like you washed tobacco/nicotine off your screen when going from the Oppo DV-981HD, Toshiba HD-A35 or Onkyo DV-HD805
to the SuperUpConverter. That's the thing... True high-definition video isn't just sharper, it's also got much better/more crisp color. But the Toshiba XD-E500 gives you BOTH the sharpness you expect from high-definition AND that crisp/vivid color!

What about side-effects, artifacts or problems? Frankly, I got eye-strain trying to find something, anything that the SuperUpConverter was getting "wrong" that the Silicon Optix HQV Reon was getting "right" The verdict? Nada. Whatever artifacts were visible on the XDE device were also
present and visible on the other conventional UpConverters."

"The Toshiba XD-E500 at all times looked like TRUE HIGH DEFINITION in terms of sharpness and color. It literally blew me away, and it is without a doubt the very best UpConverter I have ever seen. This player's radical new approach of analyzing 9 frames of video in real time is a quantum leap forward in upscaling mechanics that deserves some kind of major tech/achievement award. I want to repeat something to make sure you caught it... The Toshiba XD-E500 at all times looked like TRUE HIGH DEFINITION in terms of sharpness and color."



Mine will arrive Later Today...I can't wait!

I look forward to reading your results and opinions on this player. I just purchased an OPPO 983 for my Kuro, and have been very impressed. He tested the Toshiba against a 981, but if you have the same opinion he does of this players performance, I may just have to pick one up.

John

This is absolutely Spurs. Anyone who thinks Toshiba has multiple tiers of these things coming to market is out of their minds. The single person across the net generating the "its not spurs!" BS is that guy de@dmeat, who apparently has no life.

(this is how bad this guy is, I posted his name with an A instead of a @, and the avsforum site automatically edited it into *'s)

See

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=783296

Thanks for the forum thread. Based on the review I placed my order at J&R using Windows Live Cashback. J&R has a 12% discount. [currently on back order]

Subtotal: $149.00
UPS Ground: $10.43

Total: $159.43

So a bit over $140 out of pocket. Rockin' good deal!

This is absolutely Spurs. Anyone who thinks Toshiba has multiple tiers of these things coming to market is out of their minds. The single person across the net generating the "its not spurs!" BS is that guy de@dmeat, who apparently has no life.

(this is how bad this guy is, I posted his name with an A instead of a @, and the avsforum site automatically edited it into *'s)

Cortner's review suggest that you are correct. If performance is as good as he suggests Toshiba may have quietly revolutionized DVD PQ playback.

Then again....I tend to be skeptical. I am NO fan of 480i DVDs. I have the gold box signature edition of Gladiator, reputed to be perhaps the finest 480i PQ DVD. I am at best marginally satisfied with the PQ on my 50" plasma (via XA2). On my 92" screen it does not make the grade.

So I am going into this with a skewed perspective. If the E500 can produce a convincing pseudo-HD experience....I will be thrilled. I have the Indiana Jones boxed set from few years back...again reputed to be excellent in the PQ department...but inadequate to me. If the E500 takes them to a near HD level...I will be impressed. I am also going to compare the Gattica superbit on the E500 to the BD version.

Should be fun. I have a long day of meetings and an eight week old beautiful daughter to play with. But late tomorrow night I will dig in and do some comparisons.

I just read a review by Bill Cortner of the Toshiba XDE500 DVD player (he may be somewhat biased since he supported HD DVD). He rates VHS at a 1 out of 10, DVD (480p not upconverted) at 3 and Blu-Ray at 10. He gives the best upconverters on the market a 6 out of 10 and the XDE gets an 8.2 out of 10!Personally speaking I think his "review" comes off sounding like an advertisement:

Well my Toshiba SuperUpConverter, re-named "XDE" came in yesterday [Fedex Next-Day], and needless to say, I wasted no time getting into some very extensive evaluations.
...
Stated simply, this Toshiba SuperUpConverter, which was renamed "XDE" absolutely eats/annihilates the Silicon Optix HQV Reon
...
Where was I? Oh yeah...
BUY THIS PLAYER as soon as you can find it for $149 or less...
...
If anyone finds a better deal, please post it here at TBS because anyone with a decent-sized DVD collection definitely needs to own one of these DVD dream machines!


Someone on another forum got permission from him to post the review in its entirety and that's where I saw it.Bill Cortner runs a Yahoo group called thebombshelter (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/thebombshelter/) which is a HD DVD, DVD, and Laserdisc forum that was created by/for HD DVD fans.

someone buy it and crack it open already! :mad:
:d :d :d :d :d

It's stored 480i/60 on the disc. :)
Cheers.

What disc?

I encode myself (thoose rare times I have to do NTSC) 480/24P. Its part of the standard. You just have to add the pulldown flags so the stream gets read like 480/60i since every player out there must send the movie as 480/60i with the analoge cables.

But that doesnt take away the fact that the encode itself is 480/24P.

It's only $149, how has nobody bought one yet? :(

Don't make me do it guys, I can't afford it right now! :p

Someone buy one!

This is absolutely Spurs. Anyone who thinks Toshiba has multiple tiers of these things coming to market is out of their minds. The single person across the net generating the "its not spurs!" BS is that guy de@dmeat, who apparently has no life.

(this is how bad this guy is, I posted his name with an A instead of a @, and the avsforum site automatically edited it into *'s)

This is absolutely NOT spurs, as I described here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=14484673&postcount=80

And for anyone to apply any credible weight into this Bill Cortner guy is amazing. Of course he is going to claim Toshiba's newest venture is the greatest thing ever. Why wouldn't he? The guy runs a thread for HD DVD "format war veterans"...

He injected pure speculation (9 frames into 1) into his "review", which is simply not factual. Therefore the whole thing goes down the tubes.

As far as deadme@t is concerned, he is the one that started all of the super upconversion rumors.

The reason he is backpedaling now is because he said super resolution in DVD players was coming this year, well...apparently Toshiba thought different, as all we have is the XDE, which is a normal upconverter with some "fancy" settings. So Deadme@t has a little egg on his face because, big surprise, his little prediction was DEAD wrong. So, he had to attempt to save face (if that is possible) and say that now super resolution will be in the XDE2 players next year, since the current XDEs don't have it. Got it now?

Here is his comment from engadgets xde hands on:
Deadme@t @ Aug 19th 2008 3:30PM
The bad news.

It is not a Super Upconversion(960p native video out of DVD) player.

The good news.

Super Upconversion is still coming, in Toshiba ZF REGZA HDTV sets this fall and in XDE2 players next year.
http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/19/eyes-on-toshibas-new-xd-e500-upconverting-dvd-player/

Deadme@t is the biggest Toshiba shill on the net. He is going to make anything Toshiba look golden any chance he can get. His latest capitulation was more of a stalling tactic since his previous prediction was wrong. But you will notice he hopped right back on the Toshiba train and made his next fabled prediction (xde2 next year). The guy invents things as he goes along.

Please get yours facts straight for once.

.....

He injected pure speculation (9 frames into 1) into his "review", which is simply not factual. Therefore the whole thing goes down the tubes.

......

I'm really looking forward to hearing other actual user impressions of what the player can do with SD material. The injection of speculation into how the player is doing what it is doing does not matter to me. All I care about is the final result. If the thing really does make the kind of improvement that he claimed then I'm on board with it. This is the only first hand comparison not being run by Toshiba that I have read so far, so there is nothing to contrast it against yet. Until there are additional first hand user reports to compare it with, then I will give it the benefit of the doubt and be optimistic that it really does make a big difference.

If it does turn out to work as good as he claims, then I hope that a region-free hack comes out for it also, because I really don't want to add another dvd player into my equipment rack without retiring my 10 year old Oppo that I've still got hooked up for it's region free ability.

I'm really looking forward to hearing other actual user impressions of what the player can do with SD material. The injection of speculation into how the player is doing what it is doing does not matter to me. All I care about is the final result. If the thing really does make the kind of improvement that he claimed then I'm on board with it. This is the only first hand comparison not being run by Toshiba that I have read so far, so there is nothing to contrast it against yet. Until there are additional first hand user reports to compare it with, then I will give it the benefit of the doubt and be optimistic that it really does make a big difference.

If it does turn out to work as good as he claims, then I hope that a region-free hack comes out for it also, because I really don't want to add another dvd player into my equipment rack without retiring my 10 year old Oppo that I've still got hooked up for it's region free ability.

It may very well indeed produce a nice picture. So by all means, check one out.

But any improved PQ won't be as a result of the Cell chip, since the XDE does not have one in it.

I am just trying to separate fact from fiction here.

If Cortner's review is accurate does it really matter if this DVD player is an SRT player? I really don't care how manufacturers can make DVD look "significantly" better, only that they can!

Well my local CC just got them in stock, I'll pick it up after work. If its good as what they claim, guess i can sell my oppo.

What model Oppo will you be comparing?

It will be interesting to see how this thing deinterlaces. I see Secrets has a new DVD reviewer, Adrian Wittenberg. I don't recall him posting here. It will be interesting to see this player run through the tests. Although the last player reviewed was in April...

larry

http://www.circuitcity.com/IMAGE/product/enlarged600/top/EC.TOP.XDE500.CN.JPG
I was sure that this unit was going to be a DVD/8-track player combo, but I guess budget restraints axed the 8-track. If I'm going to buy an antique, I want a real antique. This unit is a waste of time and money. I'm sure that just before the last buggy whip company went out of business, they made the best ones. Well, Toshiba doesn't make the best ones. (Hint) Are they going after the Oppo market share? If I were in charge at Toshiba and wanted back in the big game, I would have introduced a 400 disc Blu-ray changer with every conceivable technology available today and firmware upgradable. That's how you get even for the HD-DVD boondoogle.

Well my local CC just got them in stock, I'll pick it up after work. If its good as what they claim, guess i can sell my oppo.

Thanks for the tip, my local CC stores are showing stock also. You can order online and have it waiting for you at the store, which is what I just did.

Also, it looks like Amazon has reduced their price to $150…

I just found another review by someone calling himself Iloveblu. Here's a summary. It took him fifteen minutes to figure out how to turn it on. When he did get it to accept a disc it immediately froze! After spending an hour rebooting it he finally got it to work. On a scale of one to ten he gave it a rating of 0.5, just slightly worse than VHS and slightly better than having sex with his wife. :D

It seems clear to me that based on the price this is NOT the Cell based SRT player. That said, I'm not ready to lay out considerably more dough for a BD player with stabililty issues and poor SD DVD upconversion so at this price I can't resist. I just ordered one from my local CC and will pick up later today. If its performance is no better than my current RP91(component)/iScan HD combo to my RS1x (at 104") it goes back. But I can't resist the urge to have the 24fps capability which the iScan HD lacks.

I may be able to stop by to demo it at a fellow AVS'ers on the way back. He also has a RS1 (120") and uses an XA2 for SD DVD upconversion, so we could do a few A/B comparos. If he's around and we can spend an hour or so doing it, I'll post impressions.

It seems clear to me that based on the price this is NOT the Cell based SRT player. That said, I'm not ready to lay out considerably more dough for a BD player with stabililty issues and poor SD DVD upconversion so at this price I can't resist. .

PS3 has been the most trouble free dvd player I've ever owned, also does excellent upconversion. Including the Oppo, also its the cheapest.

I just found another review by someone calling himself Iloveblu. Here's a summary. It took him fifteen minutes to figure out how to turn it on. When he did get it to accept a disc it immediately froze! After spending an hour rebooting it he finally got it to work. On a scale of one to ten he gave it a rating of 0.5, just slightly worse than VHS and slightly better than having sex with his wife. :D
:p:p:p

This is absolutely NOT spurs, as I described here:
[

So with all the telling us what its not, how about tell us what it IS, since you have the inside line apparently. Theres absolutely no reason for this to be anything other than spurs. Toshiba creating multiple high end skus for dvd playback is absurd in this market regardless of how much they hate bluray. I don't know why you think spurs is going to be a significantly higher priced unit, or create magically better images than what is being discussed here.

What disc?

I encode myself (thoose rare times I have to do NTSC) 480/24P. Its part of the standard. You just have to add the pulldown flags so the stream gets read like 480/60i since every player out there must send the movie as 480/60i with the analoge cables.

But that doesnt take away the fact that the encode itself is 480/24P.

Yeah, it's quite trivial to import a 23.976 fps MPEG-2 stream into Scenarist so long as the flags are in place. Those who'd like to learn more should check out Doom9.

well, with a 108" screen, i've gotta see if this xde thingy will really beat the onkyo hd805 (which i have and love)/xa2 image. dont have a oppo 983 so i cant compare it to xde.

i'll pick one up next week i hope.
temporarily low on sheckels after buying all these other players/accessories this last month.

keep them reviews coming, folks.:D

So with all the telling us what its not, how about tell us what it IS, since you have the inside line apparently. Theres absolutely no reason for this to be anything other than spurs. Toshiba creating multiple high end skus for dvd playback is absurd in this market regardless of how much they hate bluray. I don't know why you think spurs is going to be a significantly higher priced unit, or create magically better images than what is being discussed here.

I don't have any inside line.

I already posted what TOSHIBA has made available to the public.

Download the XDE spec sheet - there is NO reference of cell/spurs ,because it doesn't have cell/spurs.

Download the G55 spec sheet - there IS a reference to cell/spurs, because IT HAS cell/spurs.

Is that not simple enough proof, from the source no less?

I don't have any inside line.

I already posted what TOSHIBA has made available to the public.

Download the XDE spec sheet - there is NO reference of cell/spurs ,because it doesn't have cell/spurs.

Download the G55 spec sheet - there IS a reference to cell/spurs, because IT HAS cell/spurs.

Is that not simple enough proof, from the source no less?

but, imo, not 100% conclusive. which i would like to see.

but, imo, not 100% conclusive. which i would like to see.

its common sense really, Cell processor, GPU and memory is gonna cost heck of alot more than 150 to make a profit.

but, imo, not 100% conclusive. which i would like to see.I think you'll have a long wait if you're expecting Toshiba to roll out a specsheet that says, Spurs Engine - No SRT - No Cell Processor - No

its common sense really, Cell processor, GPU and memory is gonna cost heck of alot more than 150 to make a profit.

Theres no PPC Cell in spurs. Theres no GPU in spurs.

Theres no PPC Cell in spurs. Theres no GPU in spurs.

"Toshiba have taken the Cell CPU usually found in a Sony PS3 and put it into a concept Qosmio G45 laptop, giving the machine a total of six processors (the original Core 2 Duo is still there, plus the four 1.5GHz synergistic processing elements in the Cell) and the ability to perform high-complexity visual tasks in real-time. The system is then able to upscale 640 x 480 video to 1080p via heavy-duty image processing in a mere three hours (whereas a normal Core 2 Duo machine would take 24), use the onboard webcam to recognise and translate hand gestures to control the laptop, and even trawl through stacks of video identifying common faces and building playlists from recurring actors."

I think you'll have a long wait if you're expecting Toshiba to roll out a specsheet that says, Spurs Engine - No SRT - No Cell Processor - No
maybe.
but i wont lose any sleep over it. not that big a deal to me.:)
it is only a hobby. i think.

"Toshiba have taken the Cell CPU usually found in a Sony PS3 and put it into a concept Qosmio G45 laptop, giving the machine a total of six processors (the original Core 2 Duo is still there, plus the four 1.5GHz synergistic processing elements in the Cell) and the ability to perform high-complexity visual tasks in real-time. The system is then able to upscale 640 x 480 video to 1080p via heavy-duty image processing in a mere three hours (whereas a normal Core 2 Duo machine would take 24), use the onboard webcam to recognise and translate hand gestures to control the laptop, and even trawl through stacks of video identifying common faces and building playlists from recurring actors."

badly written. It is not a cell, its 4 SPEs at 1.5ghz.

maybe you need it directly from Toshiba?
http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2008_04/pr0801.htm

Its based on the cell. I'm not gonna argue with you. Tell you one thing, cell based processor is way more complected and expensive then your average reon processor.

I don't have any inside line.

I already posted what TOSHIBA has made available to the public.

Download the XDE spec sheet - there is NO reference of cell/spurs ,because it doesn't have cell/spurs.

Download the G55 spec sheet - there IS a reference to cell/spurs, because IT HAS cell/spurs.

Is that not simple enough proof, from the source no less?

Cell and Spurs are NOT the same thing. Cell is generally referencing the PPC core with the SPEs as a unit, you could (and I and other do) occasionally reference the PPC Core by itself as Cell too (altho thats probably a bad and confusing habit).

Spurs is 4 SPEs only, at 1.5ghz, half the speed of their PS3 counterparts. They depend on an external processor (the laptop CPU) for instructions.

I am very interested in seeing this machine up close.

Its based on the cell. I'm not gonna argue with you. Tell you one thing, cell based processor is way more complected and expensive then your average reon processor.

http://xtreview.com/addcomment-id-4818-view-Toshiba-SpursEngine-SE1000.html
"Cost of test copy spursEngine SE1000 is 95 dollars"

I'm willing to bet that cost has dropped to something more reasonable with integration and development time vs. an add in card.

But whatever. I could be completely off base, but I doubt it. The cost is right, the features are right, the reported performance is right. Someone will rip one apart before long and eventually identify the spurs if its there.

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=783296
Excerpt from above link:

"I am going to say that, NO, THE TOSHIBA XDE/SuperUpConverter
IS NOT a BLU-RAY [or HD DVD] KILLER.
That being said... The Toshiba XD-E500 at all times looked like TRUE HIGH DEFINITION in terms of sharpness and color. It literally blew me away, and it is without a doubt the very best UpConverter I have ever seen."

I keep reading this phrase in various places that the XD-E500 is "not a blu ray killer". It may not kill blu ray when it comes to AQ and PQ, but if the XD-E500 PQ improvement is enough to keep people from buying into blu ray, would this not make it a blu ray killer? The quote below from a Warner exec. seems to show he has concerns about upconverters affecting the sales of blu ray.

http://www.tvpredictions.com/blusales061708.htm

Excerpt from link:

“Upconverters, we think, are a huge problem,” said Warner Home Video President Ron Sanders. “Those houses (that buy an upconverter) are out of the market for several years.”

At what point did the media miss the fact that Toshiba's Spursengine could not do SRT in real-time?

Also, if the Spursengine can't do it, how are they possibly going to release a DVD player at a competitive price point that can do SRT in real time? Do they plan on implementing the algorithm in an ASIC to increase speed and reduce cost?

Why all the confusion for so many months? Is this pattern of secrecy and obfuscation something intrinsic to the way Asian consumer electronics companies do business, or is it simply that the language barrier scrambles the facts?

I keep reading this phrase in various places that the XD-E500 is "not a blu ray killer". It may not kill blu ray when it comes to AQ and PQ, but if the XD-E500 PQ improvement is enough to keep people from buying into blu ray, would this not make it a blu ray killer?

If people can get most of the experience from something like this player (lets throw a random number in there like 85%) , I really doubt Bluray will go anywhere. Of course Toshiba would have to market the thing effectively, which they have already shown they are almost incapable of doing.

The consumer might have been blind to what bluray was 6 months ago or a year ago, but in general I don't think they are now. They just can't afford it at the moment.

Then again, if the economy continues to worsen in the long term, bluray will be nothing but 'the rich niche' for a very long time. Laser Disc 2.0 is a realistic scenario, in which case I personally would be like almost everyone else, happy with cheap movies, at that 85% of quality, regardless of missing things like lossless audio.

At what point did the media miss the fact that Toshiba's Spursengine could not do SRT in real-time?

Also, if the Spursengine can't do it, how are they possibly going to release a DVD player at a competitive price point that can do SRT in real time? Do they plan on implementing the algorithm in an ASIC to increase speed and reduce cost?

Why all the confusion for so many months? Is this pattern of secrecy and obfuscation something intrinsic to the way Asian consumer electronics companies do business, or is it simply that the language barrier scrambles the facts?

Perhaps its not doing the whole '9 frame integration' thing, which is probably where the huge performance hit comes in.

The consumer might have been blind to what bluray was 6 months ago or a year ago, but in general I don't think they are now. They just can't afford it at the moment.


http://broadcastengineering.com/hdtv/hdtvs-hd-confusion/


""About one-quarter of households in the United States have at least one TV set capable of receiving HD programming — essentially double the penetration of HDTV of two years ago, according to new research from Leichtman Research Group.

The research presented in the Leichtman report “HDTV 2007: Consumer Awareness, Interest and Ownership” also reveals confusion about HD.

Among the findings:

-More than 75 percent of HDTV owners believe they are watching HD programming, but Leichtman estimates that 20 percent actually are not.
Leichtman estimates that about 53 percent of all HD households are actually watching HD programming from a multichannel video provider (cable, DBS or a telco) and about 4 percent are watching HD programming via over-the-air broadcast.
-Forty-one percent of HDTV owners said that they were told how to receive HD programming when they purchased their set.
-Forty percent of HDTV owners and more than 20 percent of all adults believe that their household currently has an HD DVD player, which is much larger than the total number of HD DVD players sold to date.
-The mean annual income of HDTV households is 27 percent above average.
Of those watching HD programming, the reported mean amount of TV viewing time spent watching programs on HD channels was 45 percent.
-Seventeen percent of all households plan to purchase a new TV set in the next 12 months, and 47 percent of this group expects to spend more than $1000 on a TV set.

The findings are based on a survey of 1300 households throughout the United States.""


The above info is a little dated (Nov 07) but if only 25% of households have a HDTV, people are going to have to buy the more expensive HDTV before buying a blu ray player. If they buy the blu ray player first, of course, they will not experience it's full potential. Everything is already in place for the XD-E500, it "should" be an easy sell for Toshiba.

Well the Spurs engine creates additional pixels intelligently by looking ahead. The XDE doesn't do that at all, it adds edge enhancement.

If people can get most of the experience from something like this player (lets throw a random number in there like 85%) , I really doubt Bluray will go anywhere. Of course Toshiba would have to market the thing effectively, which they have already shown they are almost incapable of doing.

The consumer might have been blind to what bluray was 6 months ago or a year ago, but in general I don't think they are now. They just can't afford it at the moment.

Then again, if the economy continues to worsen in the long term, bluray will be nothing but 'the rich niche' for a very long time. Laser Disc 2.0 is a realistic scenario, in which case I personally would be like almost everyone else, happy with cheap movies, at that 85% of quality, regardless of missing things like lossless audio.

The Panasonic BD30 is $299 at Amazon right now. The Funai BD players can be found for $259 (with an HDMI cable). Prices will continue to drop for Blu-Ray players as more and more CE's get on board.

Is that too expensive for most folks? Maybe. But I would agrue that Toshiba may have a hard time getting those same people to drop $149 on a DVD player that do not want to drop $200+ on a Blu-Ray player. Especially when other upconverting players advertise "HD quality", "1080p", etc and they sell those players for well under half the price of the XDE.

If somebody is not educated enough to know what Blu-Ray is, I doubt they will know the difference between XDE and other upconverting players. I see XDE going after the Oppo market. Which is also niche.

I am interested is seeing reviews on this player and more feedback from end users here at AVS. This player has definitely peaked my interest, but the thought of applying heavy noise reduction and color boosting/contrast boosting also makes me wonder how good this player can really be...

Is that too expensive for most folks? Maybe. But I would agrue that Toshiba may have a hard time getting those same people to drop $149 on a DVD player that do not want to drop $200+ on a Blu-Ray player.

DVDs big appeal isn't just the cost of players, which at $40 and $60 is wonderful, but the cost of media. Look at Walmart, whole dump bins full of movies for $5. Racks of movies for $7.50, $9, and newish titles for $13.

Bluray won't hit that media market for a long time. I'll agree that Toshiba's battle is uphill in differentiating themselves from other upconverters if this tech is actually as good as the single raving review makes it out to be. I will also say that $100 is probably the top end price for the average joe market, so price needs a bit of an adjustment (but that would happen with time anyway).

The money that would have powered bluray to quicker market penetration is now going into the gas tank instead :(

The Panasonic BD30 is $299 at Amazon right now. The Funai BD players can be found for $259 (with an HDMI cable). Prices will continue to drop for Blu-Ray players as more and more CE's get on board.

Is that too expensive for most folks? Maybe. But I would agrue that Toshiba may have a hard time getting those same people to drop $149 on a DVD player that do not want to drop $200+ on a Blu-Ray player. Especially when other upconverting players advertise "HD quality", "1080p", etc and they sell those players for well under half the price of the XDE.

If somebody is not educated enough to know what Blu-Ray is, I doubt they will know the difference between XDE and other upconverting players. I see XDE going after the Oppo market. Which is also niche.

I am interested is seeing reviews on this player and more feedback from end users here at AVS. This player has definitely peaked my interest, but the thought of applying heavy noise reduction and color boosting/contrast boosting also makes me wonder how good this player can really be...

i'm not sure education has anything to do with it. a buddy of mine had a bs in mech. eng. from mit andhis law degree from duquesne.
he had never heard of blu-ray 'til last month when visiting me and we played a movie on my bd player thru the pj.
some folks just arent into ht, sd/hd tv, etc.

exposure to the right advertising might be more pertainent.

Cell and Spurs are NOT the same thing. Cell is generally referencing the PPC core with the SPEs as a unit, you could (and I and other do) occasionally reference the PPC Core by itself as Cell too (altho thats probably a bad and confusing habit).

Spurs is 4 SPEs only, at 1.5ghz, half the speed of their PS3 counterparts. They depend on an external processor (the laptop CPU) for instructions.

I know this.

I put the "cell/spurs" reference in to cover all my bases with people that may not. Let alone the fact that we do not know exactly what Toshiba would have put inside the fabled "super resolution" player.

Regardless, the essence remains the same...the cell chip, in whatever form (8/4 SPEs) IS NOT IN THE XDE.

http://krisabel.ctv.ca/blog/_archives/2008/8/20/3847175.html

He was upset at how the demo was conducted, but still said "From my preview yesterday I can tell you that the XDE-500 certainly does offer an improvement over existing upconverting players and that the technology itself has shown an astonishing range for improvement."

Yeah, it's quite trivial to import a 23.976 fps MPEG-2 stream into Scenarist so long as the flags are in place. Those who'd like to learn more should check out Doom9.

This is just getting sillier and sillier. If you were actually putting 480p on a DVD disc, what the heck would you need flags for? What exactly would you be flagging? THINK about it!

The quote below from a Warner exec. seems to show he has concerns about upconverters affecting the sales of blu ray.

http://www.tvpredictions.com/blusales061708.htm

Excerpt from link:

“Upconverters, we think, are a huge problem,” said Warner Home Video President Ron Sanders. “Those houses (that buy an upconverter) are out of the market for several years.”

Count me among them. I'm happy to wait until BD becomes cheaper, more reliable, and with a larger catalog. Until then, I'm looking to stay mainly with DVDs which are much more readily available and priced right, nevermind the ones in the collection I currently own.

RE: the first picture in that story from the link Deja Vu posted, I sure hope the author got it wrong. To me, the images from left to right seem to be Blu-ray, std up-convert, XDE. Is it me, or does anyone think the rightmost image looks better than the center one? Clearly has greater detail in the face with better contrast and more shadow detail. And this seems to make sense, it would be silly to place the XDE picture immediately next to the BD one, that would only emphasize its shortcomings.

Actually, now that I go back and look at the images more closely, the background of the center image does seem to be more similar to the BD on the left side. While there does seem to be more detail in the face of the center image, its seems comparatively washed out and slightly less sharp overall. The image on the right does appear to have more depth and be "sharper" but I can see it lacks some of the finer details of the center image in both the fore and backgrounds.

Then again, trying to make these judgments from a couple 200x100 pixel images captured with who knows what is probably pointless. It could be that what most would clearly consider as excessive EE makes the rightmost appear most natural in this severely down-res'd image.

Is it me, or does anyone think the rightmost image looks better than the center one? Clearly has greater detail in the face with better contrast and more shadow detail.

It's not just you. I was thinking the same thing. Perhaps it's a trick of the camera however, it's not really the best photo to analyze.

No offense to Doug, but trying to evaluate anything whatsoever from that photo seems a bit ridiculous. I saw another forum where they were analyzing that screenshot and arguing that the pic on the right looks better than the blu ray on the left, and the xde was the worst of the bunch.

That picture is horrible for any type of comparison whatsoever.
1. It's extremely low resolution. For that type of comparison to work from a screenshot, we would need a high res picture to closely check out the detail in the three frames.

2. For screenshots like this to work, you would also need a dark room with a camera on a tripod. The other forum I saw they were complaining that the middle XDE pic was turning blacks to gray. Seriously? If you just look at the pic you can see the middle picture is partially washed out from the lighting, flash, etc. It's not indicative whatsoever of the pic the XDE may (or may not) be capable of.

I'm as excited as everyone here to see what this thing really is capable of, but using that screenshot to determine anything regarding performance is nothing short of asinine.

FWIW, I stopped by Best Buy during lunch and they said they had no idea if they would even be carrying the unit, so I'm stuck waiting to try one out. I'm hesitant of ordering one online, in case I want to return it.

It's not just you. I was thinking the same thing. Perhaps it's a trick of the camera however, it's not really the best photo to analyze.

Yeah, I just revised my comments after spending a bit more time looking at them. I also agree it probably comes down to the camera and reduced image size.

cbacklund - I'm with ya brother! Pointless to draw conclusions from those shots. Guess I'll have to wait until tonight. I'll be bringing the unit to a fellow AVSer's place to compare the upconversion quality to his XA2 on his 120" screen. Then, assuming it doesn't look absolutely horrible at that size, I'll connect it up at home to compare to my current RP91(YPbPr)/iScan HD setup on my 104" screen. BTW, I got mine at CC this morning.

Yeah, I just revised my comments after spending a bit more time looking at them. I also agree it probably comes down to the camera and reduced image size.

cbacklund - I'm with ya brother! Pointless to draw conclusions from those shots. Guess I'll have to wait until tonight. I'll be bringing the unit to a fellow AVSer's place to compare the upconversion quality to his XA2 on his 120" screen. BTW, I got mine at CC this morning.

Wait a minute. You have one? I assume you haven't hooked it up like a 8 year old on Christmas morning since you haven't posted any first impressions!

CC has them in stock and I'm just about to bite. There are too many dvd that will not be out on BD anytime soon...Star Wars for example.

Yeah, I just revised my comments after spending a bit more time looking at them. I also agree it probably comes down to the camera and reduced image size.

cbacklund - I'm with ya brother! Pointless to draw conclusions from those shots. Guess I'll have to wait until tonight. I'll be bringing the unit to a fellow AVSer's place to compare the upconversion quality to his XA2 on his 120" screen. Then, assuming it doesn't look absolutely horrible at that size, I'll connect it up at home to compare to my current RP91(YPbPr)/iScan HD setup on my 104" screen. BTW, I got mine at CC this morning.
I will be looking forward to your results, since I have a cheap philips upconverting player on hour 100" screen, and it looks like crap. I recently upgraded from an Infocus 4805, and that player looked fine on the SD projector, but since going hi def, it just isn't cutting it. If this player does some good things for a large picture, they'll have my $150 right away.

My CC has them in stock now. I think I'm going to go get one.

btw crutchfield has them in stock also.

I'm looking forward to hear people's impressions on this unit. If the impressions are positive, I may get it and probably compare it to my Oppo DV-983H.

However, I really need to know if they are better than the A35. It's pretty darn good.

Could the first person to actually get one of these please start a new owner's thread and this one can be left for bickering about spurs, cells, etc. ;)

having a feeling Circuit city is gonna have many of those in the openbox section in a week. if people here are saying they can't see the difference between bluray and SD, will the same people see a huge difference?

Could the first person to actually get one of these please start a new owner's thread and this one can be left for bickering about spurs, cells, etc. ;)
It's funny because I've been on 3 other forums about this player, and all 3 have the same lame argument of whether or not this is spursengine/cell based. There's more speculation going on about that than the actual player and what it does!

having a feeling Circuit city is gonna have many of those in the openbox section in a week. if people here are saying they can't see the difference between bluray and SD, will the same people see a huge difference?


Were you still going to buy one of these? Which Oppo will you be comparing it to, and what is your display?

Were you still going to buy one of these? Which Oppo will you be comparing it to, and what is your display?

I have a 60inch sxrd. Have a ps3, 980h and a hd-a2. As for SD, ps3 looks the best to me and blu ray is like a night and day difference from SD. I am curious about the XDE, i can always sell the oppo if its good or return the toshiba.

Wait a minute. You have one? I assume you haven't hooked it up like a 8 year old on Christmas morning since you haven't posted any first impressions!

Sorry, in stealth mode with the wife! :D Besides, I can't get total light control in my media room during the day. I promise to post a full comparison against the XA2 based on tonights demo at said friends house.

If this looks almost as good as an Oppo 983H (or better!) I'll be really glad I laid down for it considering it also has 24fps which is huge for use with my RS1x.

I have a 60inch sxrd. Have a ps3, 980h and a hd-a2. As for SD, ps3 looks the best to me and blu ray is like a night and day difference from SD. I am curious about the XDE, i can always sell the oppo if its good or return the toshiba.

Sorry, in stealth mode with the wife! :D Besides, I can't get total light control in my media room during the day. I promise to post a full comparison against the XA2 based on tonights demo at said friends house.

If this looks almost as good as an Oppo 983H (or better!) I'll be really glad I laid down for it considering it also has 24fps which is huge for use with my RS1x.

I await both of your reports :)

I am getting one today at CC. I am going to hook it up to my 1080p projector (Panasonic ae2000 on 92 inch screen). I currently have the oppo 971 and PS3 that I use for DVD playback. I'll post my impressions although I usually dont see a much of a difference in picture quaility between DVD players I have owned in the past. The PS3 and OPPo look comparable to me on dvd playback so it is going to take a lot for me to notice a difference. If I dont see it I am returning it. I also have many different DVD-R's and will report how well the player handles them.

I am getting one today at CC. I am going to hook it up to my 1080p projector (Panasonic ae2000 on 92 inch screen). I currently have the oppo 971 and PS3 that I use for DVD playback. I'll post my impressions although I usually dont see a much of a difference in picture quaility between DVD players I have owned in the past. The PS3 and OPPo look comparable to me on dvd playback so it is going to take a lot for me to notice a difference. If I dont see it I am returning it.

Test Gladiator, it should give some input.

Will somebody please check to see if it resume play feature so you can watch part of a DVD on one day and then start up where you left off the next? Toshiba doesn't seem to have the owner's manual available on their Web site, so I can't look it up.

Test something video-based, i.e. a concert DVD. Something that will show jaggies and aliasing.

Test Porn! ;-)

The manual is now available on the Toshiba Canada site:

http://support.toshiba.ca/support/ceg/manuals/

Select "2008" and "DVD players."

Picture settings are pretty basic.

And operating power consumption is listed as 12W. Considering the Spursengine was announced (http://news.softpedia.com/news/Toshiba-039-s-SpursEngine-Inspired-by-PlayStation-3-039-s-Cell-Processors-82833.shtml) to draw 10 to 20W, I think that pretty much rules it out.

Will somebody please check to see if it resume play feature so you can watch part of a DVD on one day and then start up where you left off the next? Toshiba doesn't seem to have the owner's manual available on their Web site, so I can't look it up.

It does not have a resume play feature.

Test Porn! ;-)

Do we have to dignify this clintonian classless joke?
Thank you

The manual is now available on the Toshiba Canada site:

The picture control features are weak. And aspect control is limited, to non-existant.

It does not have a resume play feature.

If you look on page 17 of the manual that Grubert pointed us to, you will see that it does have a resume feature. However, it does not say if the resume position is saved when you turn off the player.

Do you already have a player?

If you look on page 17 of the manual that Grubert pointed us to, you will see that it does have a resume feature. However, it does not say if the resume position is saved when you turn off the player.

Do you already have a player?

I have the player and it does not support resume after you turn it off.

I'm going to post my mini-review in about 5 minutes.

I have the player and it does not support resume after you turn it off.

I'm going to post my mini-review in about 5 minutes.
Awesome -- looking forward to a first-hand report.

I have the player and it does not support resume after you turn it off.

I'm going to post my mini-review in about 5 minutes.

That's great. Can you pop the cover and take a pic?

I'm looking forward to hear people's impressions on this unit. If the impressions are positive, I may get it and probably compare it to my Oppo DV-983H.

Please do, I have the 983 and would love to hear your comparison results.

John

Yeah, I just revised my comments after spending a bit more time looking at them. I also agree it probably comes down to the camera and reduced image size.

cbacklund - I'm with ya brother! Pointless to draw conclusions from those shots. Guess I'll have to wait until tonight. I'll be bringing the unit to a fellow AVSer's place to compare the upconversion quality to his XA2 on his 120" screen. Then, assuming it doesn't look absolutely horrible at that size, I'll connect it up at home to compare to my current RP91(YPbPr)/iScan HD setup on my 104" screen. BTW, I got mine at CC this morning.

I'm very interested to hear how the XDE stacks up against the XA2 as well.

It's funny because I've been on 3 other forums about this player, and all 3 have the same lame argument of whether or not this is spursengine/cell based. There's more speculation going on about that than the actual player and what it does!

Yeah, I guess the byline is that IF there is a way to further improve DVD via post processing then the game changes. The spursengine or it's big brother the cell are powerful processors that we are just touching the surface with. However, it will come down to how the software is implemented as well and there is potentially a lot of improvements to be made there. A close friend of mine works at IBM where he is researching such stuff.

Just got done playing with mine. I’m no video expert, so I cannot do a professional type review, but here are my impressions:

I have a 60” Sony SXRD and I used LOTR: Fellowship. The opening scene, with Frodo in the Shire reading his book as Gandalf arrives. The color mode, which brings out the greens and blues, really shines on this scene. It makes the “normal” view mode look dull. However, I should note that with my TV in “Vivid mode” combined with the XDE color mode, it looks to be a little too much. I tired each of them independently and the XDE’s color mode is a little bit more subdued than SXRD’s vivid mode. I guess it’s a matter of preference, but my girlfriend thought the vivid mode on the TV was a bit too much, she liked the XDE better (although, she still doesn’t understand why I needed yet another DVD player).

The next scene is a shot of a bridge and watermill. This is where the contrast mode is very noticeable. With film paused, switching from “contrast + sharp” mode to “normal” mode looks like the camera is being unfocused. Very impressive. The sharp mode by itself did a very minor, but noticeable picture improvement.

So, I guess it all comes down to your TV’s color capabilities. If my SRXD didn’t already have vivid mode, I’d be hailing this as a revolutionary product. However, I’m sure most HDTVs have different color modes and I can only guess as to how effective they are. I can say the XDE’s color mode is really good.

Finally, I do have an extra copy of the movie and I did pop it into my PS3, which is hooked up to the same TV. The PS3 did a great job with the up-converting (as expected) however it could not compete with XDE’s color enhancements. But I did I pick a scene was very heavy with greens.

For the average user, this will make their DVD collection look better, in some cases, a lot better. However, if you already have a good up-converter and an HDTV with good color processing, then you probably don’t need this device.

I highly doubt this is the spurs engine. Again, the real plus of this player is the color capabilities, not the resolution capabilities.

Just my impression, I am hardly an expert. I can’t wait to read other impressions.

Hmm, well one problem I see with this player then is the constant changing of the settings then.

You can have Sharp and Contrast, or Sharp and Color, but you can't have all 3 on at one time huh?

So basically depending on the movie, you'll be constantly changing the settings.

A bright movie would do better with color on, but a dark movie would do better with contrast on, right?

So, if you don't want to see what's actually on the disc but some tweaked artificial version then get this DVD player?

Hmm, well one problem I see with this player then is the constant changing of the settings then.

You can have Sharp and Contrast, or Sharp and Color, but you can't have all 3 on at one time huh?

So basically depending on the movie, you'll be constantly changing the settings.

A bright movie would do better with color on, but a dark movie would do better with contrast on, right?

Here are the modes:

Normal
Sharp
Color + Sharp
Contrast + Sharp

And you have to cycle them in order. You are absolutely correct and I almost put that in my review. An intelligent processor that could automatically switch between color and contrast modes would have made this even better.

I took a few screenshots with my digital camera and they came out terrible. This one at least shows the color difference. And if you look at the tree, you can see the enhanced resolution in color mode.

http://82.165.184.171/modes.jpg

Okay I picked this player up... Quick impressions, I don't really see much improvement, if at all. However it seems to have a handshake problem with my AVR with audio dropouts. This player chokes on backups, unlike the oppo. I'm watching a movie as i'm typing this. BTW the green display looks goofy and doesn't match any electronics I've ever seen, pretty much all electronics is either blue or amber. WTF were they thinking?

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s77/vsmextasy/DSCN0284.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s77/vsmextasy/DSCN0285.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s77/vsmextasy/DSCN0286.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s77/vsmextasy/DSCN0288.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s77/vsmextasy/DSCN0289.jpg

[QUOTE=Goatse;14495851]Okay I picked this player up... Quick impressions, I don't really see much improvement, if at all. However it seems to have a handshake problem with my AVR with audio dropouts. This player chokes on backups, unlike the oppo. I'm watching a movie as i'm typing this. BTW the green display looks goofy and doesn't match any electronics I've ever seen, pretty much all electronics is either blue or amber. WTF were they thinking?


Sounds like my 983 is safe :)

John

I would like to hear about results with more typical DVD's that are less than stellar.

Like many collectors, I have a huge number of DVD's that were made years ago. Many of these are out of print and unlikely to appear again in any format.

One could argue that the consumer should just buy a new version (if available) but if I am going to do that, why not go all-out and buy it on Blu-ray?

Moreover, if this is a great technology for salvaging one's old and not so great DVD's, why not incorporate it into a Blu-ray player for discriminating users?

So: can someone please try some marginal DVD's and report back the results? How about the infamous unmodified Star Wars done from the LD transfer as an example?

I would like to hear about results with more typical DVD's that are less than stellar.

Like many collectors, I have a huge number of DVD's that were made years ago. Many of these are out of print and unlikely to appear again in any format.


I tried the old Jurassic park. It looked awful, pretty much a mess. Picture does look smoother because its adding NR and sharpness at the same time, I'm sure to some that looks good but by sacrificing small details.
With no resume, hdmi issues and even though picture is slightly sharper than the Oppo, this player is going back. Features and user friendly oppo is better suited for me but I can see why XDE would look good to others.

I would like to hear about results with more typical DVD's that are less than stellar.

Like many collectors, I have a huge number of DVD's that were made years ago. Many of these are out of print and unlikely to appear again in any format.

One could argue that the consumer should just buy a new version (if available) but if I am going to do that, why not go all-out and buy it on Blu-ray?

Moreover, if this is a great technology for salvaging one's old and not so great DVD's, why not incorporate it into a Blu-ray player for discriminating users?

So: can someone please try some marginal DVD's and report back the results? How about the infamous unmodified Star Wars done from the LD transfer as an example?

A little off your request, but that is one thing I love about the OPPO 983, it makes not so stellar DVDs look much better and palatable.

John

Okay I picked this player up... Quick impressions, I don't really see much improvement, if at all.Would you mind taking a picture of each of the four modes of the XDE player along with one of the Oppo playing the same scene of a movie?


This player chokes on backups, unlike the oppo.Was it with DVD-R, DVD+R, or both?

I tried the old Jurassic park. It looked awful, pretty much a mess. Picture does look smoother because its adding NR and sharpness at the same time, I'm sure to some that looks good but by sacrificing small details.
With no resume, hdmi issues and even though picture is slightly sharper than the Oppo, this player is going back. Features and user friendly oppo is better suited for me but I can see why XDE would look good to others.

Thanks for the report.

Actually, the old Jurassic Park is a lot better as a DVD than many of the older disks that I have. How about the original Somewhere in Time (terrible mosquito noise), original Mary Poppins (banding and macro-blocking like you have never seen), original South Pacific (non-anamorphic blur), the only Sorcerer (noisy, dusty, etc.) ?

waiting and anticipating the review from doug- of how this machine fares with a projector and big screen!

I took a few screenshots with my digital camera and they came out terrible. This one at least shows the color difference. And if you look at the tree, you can see the enhanced resolution in color mode.

http://82.165.184.171/modes.jpg

Hey this looks promising to my eyes. Wish picture were bigger though

Very interested to hear Dougs report, as I also use the RS1 projector. PQ improvement is always exciting, but I hope there's no real improvment here. I already use the Tosh XA2 for SD, PS3 for BD and Oppo 971 for other region PAL movies. This would just add yet another device to the rack, eliminating nothing. If they would just make a fully featured BD player with Reon or better upscaling and a region free hack, I'd be in heaven.

LOL ... Looks like my FFDshow setup is safe. Besides I can post on here while my PC is playing a DVD at the same time. So far, non of the up sampling DVD players can do that.:D It's not really a fair comparison considering the PC has around $1500 dollars worth of dedicated equipment in it, but, I already own it.

The enhanced picture look very promising. Sharpness, colors, It's actually looking very good. No way I would want to play movies on an ordinary DVD player. Normal mode looks pretty dim to me. I would rather pick up this new Toshiba for DVDs than buying any other ordinary brand.:)

The one that is interesting for me, is not the improvments the player have on its own, but the ability of the player detect certain areas of different scenes and applys the filter to that area.

I think this is an area we can have much more evolution. Even better if a player could find compression artifacts and mask them.

I took a few screenshots with my digital camera and they came out terrible. This one at least shows the color difference. And if you look at the tree, you can see the enhanced resolution in color mode.

http://82.165.184.171/modes.jpg
Under the admittedly limited value of a screen shot on a website, it does look promising to me too.

However, I'd love to see the frame on the right from the XDE with the Color + Sharp Mode (as shown now) next to the same frame from a regular, non-XDE upconverting DVD player to see how an XDE player upconversion compares to the upconversion that's out there already.

Skeptical consumer that I am, maybe the Normal mode on the XDE starts out with less color and sharpness than your regular run-of-the-mill $60 upconverting player on the market today in order to impress us with the improvement when we switch to Color + Sharp Mode...

Could you do that for us, cdzie1?

Under the admittedly limited value of a screen shot on a website, it does look promising to me too.


Skeptical consumer that I am, maybe the Normal mode on the XDE starts out with less color and sharpness than your regular run-of-the-mill $60 upconverting player on the market today in order to impress us with the improvement when we switch to Color + Sharp Mode...

Could you do that for us, cdzie1?

Actually the E500 with the enchancements set to off produces PQ very similar to PS3 in 480p mode. I had the exact same conspiracy thoughts and check to be sure the unenhanced E500 wasn't dumbed down to produce a bigger perceptual difference.

Having said that...I think the Sharp+Contrast setting is superior to the others. The added contrast increases the perceived level of detail...without blowing out the colors.

How do you select

sharp+contrast
sharp+color

I bought mine last night and didn't have much time to set up since my wife wanted to watch content rather than me saying, Is this better?

I posted my comments from a viewing session at a fellow AVSer's using his RS1 and 120" screen over in the XDE500 owners thread. Overall, impressive considering the price and 24fps output. Compares extremely well to the XA2. I'll be keeping mine.

I see some nitpicking in the owners thread on aliasing of single hair strands in still shots, but I didn't see anything like this during motion video that I found to be obvious or distracting.

Two different perspective I guess. What I'm seeing is a DNR, sharpness, color and saturation cranked.

It doesn't seem this player is for people who want to see what's actually on the disc vs changing things to personal preferences of what looks good.

larry

It doesn't seem this player is for people who want to see what's actually on the disc vs changing things to personal preferences of what looks good.

larry

Welcome to the age of photoshopped magazine covers, Autotuned singers, silicone implants and lime-green Shire forests. ;)

It doesn't seem this player is for people who want to see what's actually on the disc vs changing things to personal preferences of what looks good.

larry


this is exactly what the player does. No different than some recent blu rays that got DNR'd. AVS cried foul, J6P thinks it looks cleaner and sharper.

It doesn't seem this player is for people who want to see what's actually on the disc vs changing things to personal preferences of what looks good.

larry

I think with DVD so much has been done the image before it reaches our display, that some extra tweaks will not matter if it looks better.

DVD isnt true to the source from the beginning.

I posted my comments from a viewing session at a fellow AVSer's using his RS1 and 120" screen over in the XDE500 owners thread. Overall, impressive considering the price and 24fps output. Compares extremely well to the XA2. I'll be keeping mine.

I see some nitpicking in the owners thread on aliasing of single hair strands in still shots, but I didn't see anything like this during motion video that I found to be obvious or distracting.

Hey everyone! I am the guy with the XA2 and RS1. Doug and I spent a few hours watching WOTW and The first POTC and I was very impressed by this little player. In WOTW the picture can be grainy in some scenes and I thought the XDE500 exaggerated the grain a little bit more when compared to the XA2. That was when we first started watching and once we turned on the edge enhancement to 1 on the XA2 the image looked about the same. I had the idea to reduce the sharpness on the RS1 a little bit while sharpness was turned on in the player and then the picture really began to shine. Later we moved on to POTC and we watched more than half the movie on the XDE500 and I couldn't see any artifacts that stood out. I could live very happily with this player for SD DVD if my new Pioneer 51FD (if it every arrives) isn't any good with SD DVD's and my XA2 craps out. All the dark scenes were nice and clean free of noise and naturally sharp especially with POTC. The picture was very smooth using 24p output. I wish Toshiba would build a Bluray player. They would probably blow away the competition.

Ron

I am going to pick one of these up at my local CC at lunch and I'll take it through its paces tonight and let you know my thouhgts. I have a boatload of players to compare, including the PS-3, Samsung Dual HD player with Reon, LG BH200, HDa35 with ABT and an Oppo 981. I'll try it on my 100" screen with my Panny projector and we'll see. IMHO, it is going to have to be really good to beat out the BH200 and the Reon, but I am hopeful.

I really don't need it, but I could use it somewhere.

I am not a screen shot guy, but maybe I'll pull out the tripod this weekend as well.

I am not a screen shot guy, but maybe I'll pull out the tripod this weekend as well.

A pic of the insides would be most useful. ;)

I plan on keeping mine. I hooked it up to my Panasonic Ae2000 (1080p) and Samsung SPH-710 (720p). I spent about 2 hours playing with it trying various DVD-R's. It did not have a problem playing any of the DVD-R's. I want to spend a little more time with it before I reach any conclusions however some quick observations:

Pros

1) It really does sharpen the picture. I put in some discs and forwarded to specific scenes that I remember as being soft/blurry and liked how the Toshiba sharpened them. The picture difference is noticeable. I purchased two Oppos (970 &971) based on all the great reviews they have received. In all honesty I have never noticed a real difference between them and my PS3. I am not a vidoephile and dont feeeze frame pictures and look at strands of hair so maybe thats why I have never really noticed a difference.

Cons

1) I have two HDMI swithers. I couldnt get either of them to pass a signal to my projectors. I had to hook the toshiba directly to the projector to get it to work.

2) Remote sucks. I have the dvd player behind me facing the opposite direction and had a hard time getting it to respond to the remote. I had to literally get up, go dehind the couch and stand directly in front of the player to get it to respond. I have my PS3 and Oppo 971 set up in a similar position and the PS3 remote works great while the Oppo remote works a little better than the toshiba.

3) I noticed towards the end of my viewing session I started to get a headache. I dont know if it had anything to do with the picture or if it was a random headache. (I rarely get headaches). Ill get a better idea after some additional viewing sessions.

4) I put in DVD essentials and couldnt get the blacker than black bar to appear. I am not a video expert so I dont know if this is significant or not. I also noticed on some of the test patterns that show the thin black bars against white background that the black bars got much darker when I turned the sharpen mode on.

5) Sharpen mode only works in 1080i or 1080p mode. I would have prefered to send a 720p signal to my samsung but not a big deal. The picture looks nice in 1080i which I guess is all that matters. I use my samsung primarily for dvd viewing and since I cant get the Toshiba to work with my switcher (has two outputs) I will only be able to use it on my Samsung. It would have been nice to have the option to run in through my Panny at 1080p 24hz.

Overall I like what the toshiba does to the picture. I need to spend more time with it however my initial impressions are positive.

A pic of the insides would be most useful. ;)

If I make the call to keep it, which I will make quicky- I'll be happy to do so.

I plan on keeping mine. I hooked it up to my Panasonic Ae2000 (1080p) and Samsung SPH-710 (720p). I spent about 2 hours playing with it trying various DVD-R's. It did not have a problem playing any of the DVD-R's. I want to spend a little more time with it before I reach any conclusions however some quick observations:

Pros

1) It really does sharpen the picture. I put in some discs and forwarded to specific scenes that I remember as being soft/blurry and liked how the Toshiba sharpened them. The picture difference is noticeable. I purchased two Oppos (970 &971) based on all the great reviews they have received. In all honesty I have never noticed a real difference between them and my PS3. I am not a vidoephile and dont feeeze frame pictures and look at strands of hair so maybe thats why I have never really noticed a difference.

Cons

1) I have two HDMI swithers. I couldnt get either of them to pass a signal to my projectors. I had to hook the toshiba directly to the projector to get it to work.

2) Remote sucks. I have the dvd player behind me facing the opposite direction and had a hard time getting it to respond to the remote. I had to literally get up, go dehind the couch and stand directly in front of the player to get it to respond. I have my PS3 and Oppo 971 set up in a similar position and the PS3 remote works great while the Oppo remote works a little better than the toshiba.

3) I noticed towards the end of my viewing session I started to get a headache. I dont know if it had anything to do with the picture or if it was a random headache. (I rarely get headaches). Ill get a better idea after some additional viewing sessions.

4) I put in DVD essentials and couldnt get the blacker than black bar to appear. I am not a video expert so I dont know if this is significant or not. I also noticed on some of the test patterns that show the thin black bars against white background that the black bars got much darker when I turned the sharpen mode on.

5) Sharpen mode only works in 1080i or 1080p mode. I would have prefered to send a 720p signal to my samsung but not a big deal. The picture looks nice in 1080i which I guess is all that matters. I use my samsung primarily for dvd viewing and since I cant get the Toshiba to work with my switcher (has two outputs) I will only be able to use it on my Samsung. It would have been nice to have the option to run in through my Panny at 1080p 24hz.

Overall I like what the toshiba does to the picture. I need to spend more time with it however my initial impressions are positive.


MR2- I think the sharpness is the only issue I have with any of my upconverters (although they are all quality machines) is that the good ones seem a bit soft at times. I am spoiled by HD and BD, but if this machine does eliminate my softness argument, I can see it staying in my system.

MR2- I think the sharpness is the only issue I have with any of my upconverters (although they are all quality machines) is that the good ones seem a bit soft at times. I am spoiled by HD and BD, but if this machine does eliminate my softness argument, I can see it staying in my system.

Larrimore,

I noticed your from Northern Virginia. Did you get your player at Baileys Crossroads? All the other Circuit citys near me did not have them in stock and now Baileys Crossroad is sold out. When I picked mine up last night the guy in front of me was also picking one up. I guess it is a hot item. My wife was initially mad at me for purchasing one without telling her first. I am glad I did it now.

I took a few screenshots with my digital camera and they came out terrible. This one at least shows the color difference. And if you look at the tree, you can see the enhanced resolution in color mode.

http://82.165.184.171/modes.jpg

The tree bark seems to be more detailed to me, how about others? Do you see the same additional clarity on the tree bark?

Perhaps its not doing the whole '9 frame integration' thing, which is probably where the huge performance hit comes in.

That's my point. If you are not looking at multiple frames, you aren't doing SRT.

I think it is very possible that this has been misinterpreted all along. Perhaps the XD-E500 IS Toshiba's BD killer (not competitive in performance, just good enough to delay the adoption of BD until it is overtaken by downloads and VOD). The SRT thing is non-real-time on the Qosmio laptop. Perhaps, the media saw the SRT demo and incorrectly assumed that this was the tech that Toshiba was putting into its new upconverter.

A pic of the insides would be most useful. ;)

http://82.165.184.171/inside.jpg

ns.
I use my samsung primarily for dvd viewing and since I cant get the Toshiba to work with my switcher (has two outputs) I will only be able to use it on my Samsung. It would have been nice to have the option to run in through my Panny at 1080p 24hz.


thank you for your review.
which hdmi switcher(s) are you using?
i have the latest m'price 4x2 hdmi switcher connecting my 3 hdm players (incl 2 hd dvd) to the pj and a flat panel. so far, it all works.
the 4th input slot is open for ? an xde maybe.

thank you for your review.
which hdmi switcher(s) are you using?
i have the latest m'price 4x2 hdmi switcher connecting my 3 hdm players (incl 2 hd dvd) to the pj and a flat panel. so far, it all works.
the 4th input slot is open for ? an xde maybe.

I am using the 4x2 monoprice switcher (purchased a month ago) and also have a Terk 3x1. If you can get it to work with your switcher let me know however I had no luck with either one. I tried outputting in 720p, 1080i 1080p and nothing worked. I dont know if it has anything to do with outputting in sharpen mode. I am going to turn it off and try running it again through my switchers to see if it works.

http://82.165.184.171/inside.jpg

Awesome. But we cant see the letters on all of the chips to figure out what chips this player has.

I am using the 4x2 monoprice switcher (purchased a month ago) and also have a Terk 3x1.

if my switcher didnt pass the xdes hdmi, i'd have to return xde as i only have one hdmi (actually dvi with adapter cable) input on pj.

but i think it's worth a try.

Awesome. But we cant see the letters on all of the chips to figure out what chips this player has.

It looks like the main chipset is a Zoran chipset. Zoran makes DVD chipsets. I would guess that Toshiba is using this. I don't think those other chips are a SpursEngine as they are all pretty small. But I would like to get some closer pictures of that board.

this is exactly what the player does. No different than some recent blu rays that got DNR'd. AVS cried foul, J6P thinks it looks cleaner and sharper.

What kind of elitist nonsense is this? If you want to be a museum keeper so be it but some of the rest of us just want what looks good to us. If something less than perfect can be made to look better, I welcome it. There is no sacrilege to cleaning things up a bit with newer technology... if you wish to keep it all original, warts and all, then that's all good too... just don't bad mouth anyone for preferring to see it cleaner and sharper. BTW, the opinions of a small number of AVS posters do not equate with the larger AVS forum in crying some foul has been committed... that too is quite elitist in thinking. Speaking for myself I think I just may be getting one of these players based upon the reviews so far and the pics posted (in both threads)...

The latest Zoran chipset for DVD player is Vaddis 888.

Key Features
# HDMI1.0 supporting HDCP, direct connectivity to HDTV
# Full DVD-Audio support: CPPM, MLP/LPCM, Audio Watermarking
# SACD2.0 including HD-JPEG
# DivX versions 3.x, 4.x, and 5.1, XviD full-D1 support (with QPEL and GMC support)
# MPEG-4 720x480 @ 30fps (with QPEL and GMC support)
# Single Pixel Processing (SPP) Progressive Scan Video Output
# Interlaced or progressive Digital Video out
# Accelerated JPEG decoding, simultaneous JPEG and MP3 decoding for slide show
# Supports JPEGXtreme to enable high-resolution image display
# Direct interface to FLASH memory cards (Secure Digital, Memory stick, Compact Flash, Smart Media and XD) Proprietary video post processing filters for improving quality of low bit rate MPEG streams
# Integrated S/PDIF receiver
# Supports: DVD-Video, DVD-Audio, DVD-RW, DVD+RW, CVD, SuperVCD, VideoCD, DVCD, Audio CD, Kodak
# PictureCD, Dolby Digital, Pro Logic, Pro Logic II, DTS, MPEG 5.1, HDCD, WMAAudio Decoding ZoranZoom™ and panning
# Image Enhancement: Sharpness and Brightness Adjustments and Gamma correction
# 8+2 Channels and S/PDIF Audio Outputs
# Virtual Surround Sound, 3D Headphones, Music Modes Enhanced Karaoke
# Flexible support for OPUs and mechanisms with superior playbility
# Embedded NTSC/PAL encoder w/six 14bit video DACs up to 165Mhz sampling rate
# Software compatible with Vaddis family
# On-Screen Display (OSD) processor with up to 256 entries of 24-bit YUV color palette and 3-bit transparency
# Interfaces for front panel and IR remote I/O
# External Flash/ROM/Peripheral Interfaces
# Supports 32, 64 and 128-Mbit SDRAM configurations
# 256-pin LQFP Package for ZR36886 and ZR36888
# 208-pin LQFP Package for ZR36882
# Enables system power consumption of less than 1W in standby mode

http://82.165.184.171/inside.jpg

Thanks. What is the labeling on the Zoran chips and the other three big chips?

So by those specs, it can play DVD-A, SACD and DivX?

What kind of elitist nonsense is this? I you want to be a museum keeper so be it but some of the rest of us just want what looks good to us. If something less than perfect can be made to look better, I welcome it. There is no sacrilege to cleaning things up a bit with newer technology... if you wish to keep it all original, warts and all, then that's all good too... just don't bad mouth anyone for preferring to see it cleaner and sharper. BTW, the opinions of a small number of AVS posters do not equate with the larger AVS forum in crying a foul has been committed... that too is quite elitist in thinking. Speaking for myself I think I just may be getting one of these players based upon the reviews so far and the pics posted (in both threads)...


I can 110% tell you that it doesn't improve the picture. Increasing edge enhancement and adding DNR loses fine details so how is it cleaner and sharper?? Does it look better at first?? yes. It doesn't improve the picture. Its not adding any new details or pixals, its just adding EE to already exsisting details which by killing all smaller details.

The tree bark seems to be more detailed to me, how about others? Do you see the same additional clarity on the tree bark?

It could easily be noise your seeing, way too small picture to tell.

Thanks. What is the labeling on the Zoran chips and the other three big chips?

I'm too lazy to open it back up again, but it looks like the Vaddis chip is a 966.

http://82.165.184.171/inside2.jpg

I'm too lazy to open it back up again, but it looks like the Vaddis chip is a 966.

That's the same chip Toshiba used a while ago on the 2006 SD270E (I'm not sure of the model number in the US:

http://www.videohelp.com/dvdplayers?chipset=Zoran%20Vaddis%20966


http://82.165.184.171/inside2.jpg

With what resolution did you take the pic?

That's disappointing that it uses crappy Zoran chipset and merely crank up sharpness, noise reduction, color saturation, and contrast. Certainly not worth $150 price tag. Maybe at $99 or less.

http://www.zoran.com/print.php?id_article=227
It would appear Samsung has been building players with this chipset for over a year now...
Yet it appears the chip is even older than that (going back to Jan 2007)... http://www.eetimes.com/press_releases/bizwire/showPressRelease.jhtml?articleID=569445&CompanyId=2
So I'm assuming what's new must be specific to its implementation and manipulation of the features? so where or what is the upscaler chip used in this player?

Unfortunately, Samsung is not well-respected for DVD players. They make great displays but their DVD players are crappy.

Unfortunately, Samsung is not well-respected for DVD players. They make great displays but their DVD players are crappy.

And it seems like they have continued that tradition with their Blu-Ray players. Unless you get lucky and get one that works..

I can 110% tell you that it doesn't improve the picture. Increasing edge enhancement and adding DNR loses fine details so how is it cleaner and sharper?? Does it look better at first?? yes. It doesn't improve the picture. Its not adding any new details or pixals, its just adding EE to already exsisting details which by killing all smaller details.

Hmmm interesting. I guess I am going to have to give it some more viewing time and look at things a little closer before I reach any conclusions. My initial impressions were positive but they can change with more viewing time. I generally hate any form of Edge Enhancement or DNR. I dont understand why people are complaining about the price. The OPPO 983 is going for
$399. I almost ordered the 983 but then decided I would rather get another PS3 for the same price. I always felt the Oppo 971 was a little on the soft side and in a way prefer the PS3 for DVD playback. I know the 983 is different from the 971 however I purchased the 971 based on all the reviews and never could figure out why all the hype. Can someone tell me how the 983 compares to the Toshiba and maybe put some screen shots up from both machines?

And it seems like they have continued that tradition with their Blu-Ray players. Unless you get lucky and get one that works..
Guess I was one of the lucky ones you speak of... after 2 months my BD-P1500 has been great... "knock-on-wood" (actually even better in many ways that my Sony S350). I better be careful here though 'cause often the moment I begin to praise something it falls apart...

Hmmm interesting. I guess I am going to have to give it some more viewing time and look at things a little closer before I reach any conclusions. My initial impressions were positive but they can change with more viewing time. I generally hate any form of Edge Enhancement or DNR. I dont understand why people are complaining about the price. The OPPO 983 is going for
$399. I almost ordered the 983 but then decided I would rather get another PS3 for the same price. I always felt the Oppo 971 was a little on the soft side and in a way prefer the PS3 for DVD playback. I know the 983 is different from the 971 however I purchased the 971 based on all the reviews and never could figure out why all the hype. Can someone tell me how the 983 compares to the Toshiba and maybe put some screen shots up from both machines?
Uh, I was assuming his response was talking about using EE and DNR to clean up older, noisier and softer movies for transfer to Blu-Ray as that was the comment I quoted and then 'tagged' him for... but since this is all in the Toshiba thread... I don't really know maybe he was back to referring to the Tosh.

Larrimore,

I noticed your from Northern Virginia. Did you get your player at Baileys Crossroads? All the other Circuit citys near me did not have them in stock and now Baileys Crossroad is sold out. When I picked mine up last night the guy in front of me was also picking one up. I guess it is a hot item. My wife was initially mad at me for purchasing one without telling her first. I am glad I did it now.

Leesburg. Sterling apparently has them as well. I picked it up at lunch time.

Yeh I got mine at bailyscross roads. I'll be returning mine tonite or morrow, should be able to pick it up openbox.

Uh, I was assuming his response was talking about using EE and DNR to clean up older, noisier and softer movies for transfer to Blu-Ray as that was the comment I quoted and then 'tagged' him for... but since this is all in the Toshiba thread... I don't really know maybe he was back to referring to the Tosh.


Sorry. I guess I should have read the entire earlier post. I thought he was referring to the Toshiba that was adding EE and DNR to improve the picture.

Sorry. I guess I should have read the entire earlier post. I thought he was referring to the Toshiba that was adding EE and DNR to improve the picture.

He very well might have been... I don't actually know.

Anyone know if this player will do PAL-to-NTSC conversion and if it can be made region free (like the Philips, Yamaha, etc. by punching in a code)
Oh, and pillar-boxing of 4:3 content?

yes the XDE500 is adding mucho DNR, then adding EE to make the picture appear cleaner and sharper. Like recent new line Blurays which does the same thing. To some this looks good and I can totally understand that. I however want the picture too not be processed from the original.

yes the XDE500 is adding mucho DNR, then adding EE to make the picture appear cleaner and sharper. Like recent new line Blurays which does the same thing. To some this looks good and I can totally understand that. I however want the picture too not be processed from the original.

Now this I understand... thanks for your opinion/review (in the other thread).

I think it was introduced in 2006. Zoran has been used on Arcam flagship player. Though the performance varies greatly with the implementation. Looking at secrets it appears one year a 2k Arcam player is personal favorite then the next a personal disappointment. It's failings will be the same as any flag reading player, it will probably have problems with alt flags, YC Delay and passing below black. I own the XDE500 and the more I watch it the more I feel like it's a gimmick player that Kris or Sandy will find turning to dust when tested. Too bad for Toshiba, Great for Oppo, Denon and the schizoid BD players out there. Toshiba should bite the bullet and stay with Reon/Realta chipsets.

Yeh I got mine at bailyscross roads. I'll be returning mine tonite or morrow, should be able to pick it up openbox.

Hey were you the asian guy in front of me that picked one up at around 8pm on Thursday? I dont think Ill pick the one you are returning up. Didnt you say yours was choking up on backups? Mine hasnt had any problem yet and if it had any problems playing my backups it would definitely go back. I notice you have the 983. Is it much better than the PS3 and Toshiba at playback? I wish they sold the 983 in a store so I could test one out.

yeh that was me. I think the dvdr issue is with the Zoran, the Samsung player I had did the same thing. Random freezes and if I FF, it would choke.

yeh that was me. I think the dvdr issue is with the Zoran, the Samsung player I had did the same thing. Random freezes and if I FF, it would choke.

lol are you serious or kidding:) lol.....anyway I am going to really put it to work this weekend and see if my opinion changes. If any of my discs start freezing I am gonna return mine also.

So, where are all the people insisting this had the SpursEngine/SRT now? ;)