Most people say set your primary speakers to (small in your AVR)

Does it not seem odd that I would subsitute my LS360s (4) 10" woofers ability to go down cleanly to 20Hz with another branded single 13" subwoofer?

Thank you, for all opinions, on this issue.

Most people say set your primary speakers to (small in your AVR)

Does it not seem odd that I would subsitute my LS360s (4) 10" woofers ability to go down cleanly to 20kHz with another branded single 13" subwoofer?

Thank you, for all opinions, on this issue.

First, an editorial comment, (not directed exclusively at the OP.) I get annoyed when posters list the Model# of their speakers without listing the manufacturer. It's not like we all know every model by every manufacturer. I often have to "Google" the Model# and hope I find the right manufacturer for the speakers, (or receiver or whatever). How hard is it to say "my MacIntosh LS360's?" Now, I happen to know these speakers because I Google'd them once before when I responded to the OP in another thread. However, it would be appreciated if posters could list the manufacturer as well as the Model # of their equipment when asking questions about it. OK, off my editorial high horse. :)

First, the bass is in the lower range of frequencies, (the double-digit "Hz" range, not the 5-digit "kHz" range.) Your speakers actually go *up* cleanly to 20 kHz. However, they are spec'd to go *down* to 29 Hz.
http://www.mcintosh.net.au/ProductDetail.asp?Brand=M&Category=LSPEAK&ProductCode=LS360

Your speakers are a "ported" design. Therefore, they will drop off fairly rapidly below their tuning point, which is most likely slightly above 29 Hz. While this is excellent bass extension for a speaker, it doesn't classify them as "full range", which would be extension to 20 Hz or lower. Therefore, if you send them a full-range signal with content below 29 Hz, (or so) and they can't reproduce it at the same level as all the other sounds, those lowest frequencies will be lost. OTOH, if you redirect them to a subwoofer (or two), capable of reproducing them, they will be reproduced at full volume and impact.

I know you have a JL Audio F113, and you are considering a second one, (highly recommended BTW). Those subs will do a much better job of reproducing the lowest notes. While it's true you have physically "large" speakers, and it may seem counter-intuitive to set them to "small", it is also true that you have audibly better subs. ("Large" and "small" are really inadequate nomenclature for this process. They should really be called "Crossover On" and "Crossover Off". This would remove the ego from the decision making process: "I got big speakers; they should be set to "Large"!) :)

But then you might say, "I'm wasting my woofers!" Well, no... let's say you set the crossovers at 50 Hz. Your woofers will still be reproducing 2 whole octaves of sound, from 50 to 200 Hz, the crossover point in your speakers. Also, by removing the lowest octave, you free them up to do a better job of reproducing those two octaves. In addition, you free up amplifier headroom. By removing the lowest frequencies *before* the amplifiers, your reduce the demands on the amps significantly, (the lowest notes are the most power hungry notes in the audio spectrum.) This extra headroom allows both the amps and the speakers to play louder with less distortion.

More importantly, speaker placement options are improved. If you run your speakers "full range", you need to consider bass response in the placement of the speakers. You may compromise the imaging and soundstage to improve the bass response. By re-routing the bass to the sub woofer(s), you remove that consideration from speaker placement. You are now free to place them in the very best positions for imaging and soundstage. You can then place the subwoofers where they interact best with the room and listening position for bass response.

Of course, all of this *assumes* a pre/pro/receiver with a flexible Bass Management system. A good BM system has multiple crossover points and it allows different crossovers for different speaker sets. The "best" BM systems have adjustable crossover slopes to account for different roll-off's in different types of speakers. Bass Management should be used in any system, short of one with 5 or 7 truly "full-range" speakers. Since there are very few truly "full-range" speakers, and it is often impractical to use 5 or 7 tower speakers, this means BM should be used in virtually *all* systems with less than full-range speakers in all positions.

The nice thing is that it doesn't cost anything to try BM if it's already built into the receiver/pre/pro. It's easy to play around with different crossovers, and you can always go back to the one you like best. Give it a shot.

Craig

Sorry about the manufacturer name void, I did not realize that was important, in the cross, or not to cross my main speakers, issue.

Once again.
That was a Great detailed answer!

Thank You

If I was in your position, I would try running your tower speakers full range along with the subwoofer. If you turn the subs crossover to its lowest setting, 30 Hz, your 3 db down points are 15.8 Hz and 33 Hz as meeasured by Ilkka.

Down 3 db at 33 Hz might suit your tower speakers just right.

With 4 X 10 inch woofers in your towers, you should be able to crank them pretty hard without damage.

I am not saying that this will necessarily sound best, but I would want to hear it for myself.

You would want to try the crossover at 40, and 50 Hz as well to determine which crossover frequency sounds best to you. Craig is correct in saying it takes a load off your amp/receiver by using a higher crossover. Still, it seems that whatever receiver/pre-pro you are using can handle the demands of your speakers.

In my experience, the differences may not be all that dramatic when you have what are substantially "full range" speakers. This is especially true when you have a very capable sub that will augment from ~30Hz on down with the crossover set to the 30 Hz position on your JL Fathom F113.

Sorry about the manufacturer name void, I did not realize that was important, in the cross, or not to cross my main speakers, issue.
It's just nice to know what speakers we are talking about when we discuss crossovers. The speakers have as much to do with selecting a crossover as the subwoofer.

If I was in your position, I would try running your tower speakers full range along with the subwoofer. If you turn the subs crossover to its lowest setting, 30 Hz, your 3 db down points are 15.8 Hz and 33 Hz as meeasured by Ilkka.

Down 3 db at 33 Hz might suit your tower speakers just right.

With 4 X 10 inch woofers in your towers, you should be able to crank them pretty hard without damage.

I am not saying that this will necessarily sound best, but I would want to hear it for myself.

You would want to try the crossover at 40, and 50 Hz as well to determine which crossover frequency sounds best to you. Craig is correct in saying it takes a load off your amp/receiver by using a higher crossover. Still, it seems that whatever receiver/pre-pro you are using can handle the demands of your speakers.

In my experience, the differences may not be all that dramatic when you have what are substantially "full range" speakers. This is especially true when you have a very capable sub that will augment from ~30Hz on down with the crossover set to the 30 Hz position on your JL Fathom F113.
I understand where you're going here and would suggest the OP try your recommendations. My only caution would be that running speakers with response to 29 Hz as full range may make it sound like *more* bass, but that doesn't necessarily mean *better* bass.

I know well the sound of JL Audio subs; I have a pair of F112's. I would be surprised if the OP got a good "blend" of bass between the ported speakers and the sealed JL's, even using them for separate bands, as you suggest. I honestly believe the best overall sound for him will be speakers set to "Small", (i.e., "Crossover Engaged") and a crossover somewhere between 50 and 80 Hz. This will take the ports out of play and leave the sub(s) to reproduce the deep bass.

As I said before, it's easy to try all this stuff and then go back to the one that sounds best. :)

Craig

If I set my crossover low (circa to 30hz to 40hz) for the Mcintosh LS360's, what happens to my (small) Center Channel and (small) Rear Surround Speakers, sound?

Will not there be a big void, since the do not go as low as my mains??

If you set just the L/R crossovers that low, nothing will happen to the CC and surrounds. Can you set separate crossovers for different speaker sets? What pre/pro/receiver do you have? (Please include the manufacturer as well as the model#.) :)

Craig

If you set just the L/R crossovers that low, nothing will happen to the CC and surrounds. Can you set separate crossovers for different speaker sets? What pre/pro/receiver do you have? (Please include the manufacturer as well as the model#.) :)

Craig

I do not believe I can set separate crossovers.
I currently using a Yamaha 1800,. because of the 1.3HDMI and ability to decode.

Once I get this all figured out, I will be upgrading.

I do not believe I can set separate crossovers.
I currently using a Yamaha 1800,. because of the 1.3HDMI and ability to decode.

Once I get this all figured out, I will be upgrading.

Please check page 80 of your owner's manual. You have 2 choices, you can direct low frequency sounds from ALL of your speakers to the subwoofer, or using a setting called "BOTH", you can redirect the center, surrounds, effects speaker bass to the sub BUT the bass to your main L & R will go to BOTH your subwoofer and your main L & R.

Craig may well be right that you may prefer not to have the bass from say 60 Hz on down going to your towers. Your Yamaha has crossovers at 40 Hz, 60 Hz, 80 Hz, 90 Hz etc etc.

Still, your towers do not crossover until 200 Hz, so you are going to have a combination of ported sound and sealed sound from your sub no matter how you set your crossover up.

My suggestion was and is that you try using your towers run full range and using the 30 Hz setting on the sub crossover. You may like the way it sounds, you may not. You may like your mains crossed over at 60 Hz along with a similar setting on the sub crossover knob.

Basically, trying to predict how something is going to sound based on the numbers in the owners manuals doesn't always tell you what will sound best to you.

I have an onkyo sr606, and I am in the same situation. The audyssey set up automatically set all my speakers to full range (speakers consist of 4 polk r50 tower, and one polk csi3 center). i dont have my sub yet, so audyssey was run with out a sub, im not sure if audessey would change those settings with the sub present. But I can only change the center channel and surround channels, in terms of crossover, the fronts are grayed out and stay at full band? Any reason why?

Well I played around more with the settings and was able to change the front channel, i have to enable to sub, so for now I will wait for it to arrive and re run audessey.

If I can steer this in a slightly different direction, I have a question I wonder if someone might know.

It does pertain to the small/large speaker setting, and how bass is directed by the processor, specifically in 5.1. My understanding is that there is a dedicated "LFE" track which always goes to the sub. If I set my mains to "large" will my fronts be trying to replicate this subsonic bass? or are they only sent full range sound without LFE channel?
So if I set my speaker to "small" and have my crossover set to 80Hz, the sub is now assuming anything below 80Hz from the mains, in addition to the LFE track? Someone told me that LFE is dedicated from 0 to 120Hz, so 120 is the optimum crossover if your system can handle it. if I have my crossover at 80Hz, is the remainder of the LFE sent to the fronts, cut off and not heard, or all sent to sub in addition to 80Hz and below from the mains?

Sorry for the deluge of questions, and I imagine alot of this is system / reciever dependant. I'm just questioning the general methodology.

In case it matters, my system is Arcam AVR350, PMC TB2+ LCR and Jamos Concert surrounds. sub is SVS PB12 Ultra.

Well I played around more with the settings and was able to change the front channel, i have to enable to sub, so for now I will wait for it to arrive and re run audessey.

Most manufacturers of receivers recommend using the SMALL setting for all speakers and redirecting the bass to your subwoofer. Clearly companies like Denon, Onkyo, Marantz, Yamaha, Pioneer have the resources to try various settings with speakers covering a wide price range.

But there are people who have very very capable speakers for their mains. For example, the Wilson Watt-Puppy, now priced close to $20,000/pair was the most popular speaker over $10,000, (and it still may be the most popular speaker over $10,000 for all I know).

Someone with a pair of Watt-Puppies may be able to integrate the bass at a lower frequency than the 80 Hz that is almost universally recommended.

With all due respect, the Polk R50 is not designed to handle high level deep bass in a surround system using DVDs as the source material.

Still, your towers do not crossover until 200 Hz, so you are going to have a combination of ported sound and sealed sound from your sub no matter how you set your crossover up.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you set the crossover between the speakers and the sub to say, 80 Hz, and the ports on the main speakers are tuned to say, 30 Hz, the signal sent to the speakers will be down about 20 dB at the tuning point of the ports. The ports only contribute sound at the tuning frequency and a few Hz on either side of it. This is what I meant when I said the ports would be "taken out of play". Their output would be at such a reduced volume that the sealed sound would predominate it.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that the "sealed" sound would predominate the "ported" sound.

Craig

If I can steer this in a slightly different direction, I have a question I wonder if someone might know.

It does pertain to the small/large speaker setting, and how bass is directed by the processor, specifically in 5.1. My understanding is that there is a dedicated "LFE" track which always goes to the sub.
If the sub is selected, yes.

If I set my mains to "large" will my fronts be trying to replicate this subsonic bass? or are they only sent full range sound without LFE channel?
If they're set to "large" and the bass to the sub only, they are sent the full range signal.

So if I set my speaker to "small" and have my crossover set to 80Hz, the sub is now assuming anything below 80Hz from the mains, in addition to the LFE track?
Yes.


Someone told me that LFE is dedicated from 0 to 120Hz, so 120 is the optimum crossover if your system can handle it.
Incorrect. The LFE has it's own separate filter. This is not a crossover. It sets the upper cutoff frequency of the LFE channel *only*. It should always be set to 120 Hz. Otherwise you are discarding any LFE signal above it's setting, (i.e., if you set the LFE filter to 80 Hz, you are discarding the signal from 80 to 120 Hz in the LFE channel). The "crossovers" affect the speakers and the subwoofer. The crossover setting determines the frequency above which the signal is sent to the speakers and below which the signal is sent to the sub. The optimal crossover point depends on the speakers, their ability to reproduce low frequencies and their interaction with the room at low frequencies. The crossovers have "slopes" which phase out the signal at a certain level. Some reduce the signal by 12 dB per octave, some by 24 dB per octave. In some processors the slopes are adjustable for different kinds of speakers.

if I have my crossover at 80Hz, is the remainder of the LFE sent to the fronts, cut off and not heard, or all sent to sub in addition to 80Hz and below from the mains?
Anything below the crossover point is filter out of the speaker's signal, combined with the LFE signal and sent to the sub.

Sorry for the deluge of questions, and I imagine alot of this is system / reciever dependant. I'm just questioning the general methodology.

In case it matters, my system is Arcam AVR350, PMC TB2+ LCR and Jamos Concert surrounds. sub is SVS PB12 Ultra.
According to the website, your front speakers have, "Phenomenal Bass Response down to 40 Hz.", but they don't quote the -3 dB point. I would start with an 80 Hz crossover for the fronts. There are 6 different lines of Jamo Concert Surrounds, so I can't help you there. Check you speakers for the -3 dB point on the low end of their stated frequency response. Start with a crossover slightly above it.

Hope this helps.

Craig

I too, would like to know if i should run my fronts set to small or large. I have PSB Stratus Silveri's for fronts and have a Paradigm DSP-3400 sub.


Stratus Silveri Tower Specifications
Frequency Range
On Axis @ 0° ±1.5dB 40-20,000 Hz
On Axis @ 0° ±3dB 35-21,000 Hz
Off Axis @ 30° ±1.5dB 40-10,000 Hz
Lf Cutoff -10dB 26 Hz
Sensitivity
1w (2.83V) @ 1m, IEC-filtered Pink Noise, C-weighted
Anechoic Chamber 89 dB
Typical Listening Room 91 dB
Impedence
Nominal 4 Ohms
Minimum 4 Ohms
Input Power
RMS, Clipping < 10% of the Time
Recommended 15-250 Watts
Program 200 Watts

I do not believe I can set separate crossovers.
I currently using a Yamaha 1800,. because of the 1.3HDMI and ability to decode.
Please tell me you're not running those great MacIntosh speakers off the power amps in the Yammie receiver!?! :eek:
Once I get this all figured out, I will be upgrading.
Sooooon! :D:D:D

Craig

I too, would like to know if i should run my fronts set to small or large. I have PSB Stratus Silveri's for fronts and have a Paradigm DSP-3400 sub.


Stratus Silveri Tower Specifications
Frequency Range
On Axis @ 0° ±1.5dB 40-20,000 Hz
On Axis @ 0° ±3dB 35-21,000 Hz
Off Axis @ 30° ±1.5dB 40-10,000 Hz
Lf Cutoff -10dB 26 Hz
Sensitivity
1w (2.83V) @ 1m, IEC-filtered Pink Noise, C-weighted
Anechoic Chamber 89 dB
Typical Listening Room 91 dB
Impedence
Nominal 4 Ohms
Minimum 4 Ohms
Input Power
RMS, Clipping < 10% of the Time
Recommended 15-250 Watts
Program 200 Watts

Yes, they should be set to "Small". It is often recommended to use a crossover one octave higher than the - 3dB point of the speakers. In your case one octave above 35 Hz is 70 Hz. I would start with an 80 Hz crossover. Try it and see how you like it. Then try 50, 60, 70 and 90, and anything you can set in between. Stick with the one that sounds the best.

Here is some relevant advice I gave to someone in a previous thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14467956#post14467956

Craig

I have an onkyo sr606, and I am in the same situation. The audyssey set up automatically set all my speakers to full range (speakers consist of 4 polk r50 tower, and one polk csi3 center). i dont have my sub yet, so audyssey was run with out a sub, im not sure if audessey would change those settings with the sub present. But I can only change the center channel and surround channels, in terms of crossover, the fronts are grayed out and stay at full band? Any reason why?
If you have no sub, the bass from the "small" channels can only be redirected to the L/R's. When you enable the sub, even if it's not really there, you will be sending bass to a speaker that doesn't exist. IOW, you'll be discarding it. Until you get your sub, leave the L/R's set to "large" and the other speakers set to "small". This will re-direct the LFE channel and the bass from the "small" channels to the L/R's.

When you get the sub, re-run Audyssey. If it still sets the mains to "large", *then* reset them to "small".

Craig

Please tell me you're not running those great MacIntosh speakers off the power amps in the Yammie receiver!?! :eek:

Craig

I have Mcintosh 501's and plan to buy more, once I figure everything out.
I like them a lot! Some MAC stuff, not so much...but,
My MAC 1700 has worked for 36 years!


I am a 2 channel guy, crossing over to home theater.

Reading this thread got me thinking about my current setup and if it is configured correctly. Any help would be appreciated.

I have a Denon 3805 which is powering Martin Logan Source fronts, along with an ML Matinee center, ML Abyss sub and some cheap bookshelf rears.

Settings:
Front Speakers set to Large
Subwoofer Mode = LFE + Main
Crossover = 60hz

Should I set the speakers to small or not? I'm under the impression that with my current settings the front speakers play everything above 60hz and the sub takes care of anything below that. What changes if the speakers are set to small?

Thanks

Reading this thread got me thinking about my current setup and if it is configured correctly. Any help would be appreciated.

I have a Denon 3805 which is powering Martin Logan Source fronts, along with an ML Matinee center, ML Abyss sub and some cheap bookshelf rears.

Settings:
Front Speakers set to Large
Subwoofer Mode = LFE + Main
Crossover = 60hz

Should I set the speakers to small or not? I'm under the impression that with my current settings the front speakers play everything above 60hz and the sub takes care of anything below that. What changes if the speakers are set to small?

Thanks
Your ML Source's have a frequency response of 42 Hz to 22 kHz:
http://www.us.martinlogan.com/specs/source.html
They're a ported speaker, so they'll roll-off their output pretty rapidly below 42 Hz. Even with some room gain, they won't be doing much below about 30 Hz in-room. So, if you send them a "full-range" 20 Hz signal, the lowest part of the signal won't be reproduced. It will be lost, never to be heard. :( Seems a shame doesn't it? That lowest half octave is a lot of fun!

However, if you invoke the crossover, (i.e., set them to "small"), you can re-route that deep bass to your subwoofer, which is a much more capable speaker of reproducing it. Now you've retrieved the deep bass and sent it to the correct speaker, *PLUS* you've freed up the Sources to do what they do best... throw up that beautiful, distortion free soundstage. Seems like a win/win to me.

I would try an 80 Hz crossover first. Then play around with other crossovers until you find the one that provides the smoothest bass and the best blend between the sub and the speakers. (I presume you are already crossing the Matinee and the surrounds at some point above their -3 dB point).

Craig

Well the 606 doesnt have a setting for small, just full band, or the actual cross over points. so for my fronts and rear for the time being will stay as full band until my a3-300 shows up. But what should i set my center csi3 to? Im guessing 80hz? Any suggestions?

Your ML Source's have a frequency response of 42 Hz to 22 kHz:
http://www.us.martinlogan.com/specs/source.html
They're a ported speaker, so they'll roll-off their output pretty rapidly below 42 Hz. Even with some room gain, they won't be doing much below about 30 Hz in-room. So, if you send them a "full-range" 20 Hz signal, the lowest part of the signal won't be reproduced. It will be lost, never to be heard. :( Seems a shame doesn't it? That lowest half octave is a lot of fun!

However, if you invoke the crossover, (i.e., set them to "small"), you can re-route that deep bass to your subwoofer, which is a much more capable speaker of reproducing it. Now you've retrieved the deep bass and sent it to the correct speaker, *PLUS* you've freed up the Sources to do what they do best... throw up that beautiful, distortion free soundstage. Seems like a win/win to me.


I would try an 80 Hz crossover first. Then play around with other crossovers until you find the one that provides the smoothest bass and the best blend between the sub and the speakers. (I presume you are already crossing the Matinee and the surrounds at some point above their -3 dB point).

Craig

Thanks for the input. So basically what you're saying is if the speakers are set to small, the receiver only sends frequencies above the subwoofer crossover to the speaker. If they were set to large, than it sends the full range to the speaker, but lets the sub come in at the crossover point?

Thanks for the input. So basically what you're saying is if the speakers are set to small, the receiver only sends frequencies above the subwoofer crossover to the speaker. If they were set to large, than it sends the full range to the speaker, but lets the sub come in at the crossover point?
The crossovers affect both the speakers and the subwoofer. In speakers set to "small", frequencies above the crossover, get sent to the speakers while frequencies below the crossover get sent to the sub. All the frequencies below the crossovers of all speakers set to "small" get combined with the LFE channel to form the "total" subwoofer signal.

If the fronts are set to "large" and all the other speakers are set to "small", the fronts will receive the "full range" signal for their channel. The rest of the speakers will get whatever is above their crossover for their channel and anything below the crossover gets combined with the LFE channel and goes to the subwoofer.

When the fronts are sent a full range signal, the bass in the front channels is not re-routed to the sub. This is why, if the front speakers are not really "full range" that bass is lost.

Is that as clear as mud now? :D

Craig

The crossovers affect both the speakers and the subwoofer. In speakers set to "small", frequencies above the crossover, get sent to the speakers while frequencies below the crossover get sent to the sub. All the frequencies below the crossovers of all speakers set to "small" get combined with the LFE channel to form the "total" subwoofer signal.

If the fronts are set to "large" and all the other speakers are set to "small", the fronts will receive the "full range" signal for their channel. The rest of the speakers will get whatever is above their crossover for their channel and anything below the crossover gets combined with the LFE channel and goes to the subwoofer.

When the fronts are sent a full range signal, the bass in the front channels is not re-routed to the sub. This is why, if the front speakers are not really "full range" that bass is lost.

Is that as clear as mud now? :D

Craig

That is clear as glass actually. I understood most of the crossover stuff before but never had a clear description of what small and large settings exactly did. Thanks alot.

Craig: In speakers set to "small", frequencies above the crossover, get sent to the speakers while frequencies below the crossover get sent to the sub. All the frequencies below the crossovers of all speakers set to "small" get combined with the LFE channel to form the "total" subwoofer signal"

This is the toughest to swallow as a newbie. Expensive Full range speaker designed and balance to play full range and we relieve them of their duties below at 80hz or below, to play into possibly just one 13.5 inch subwoofer. It defies newbie logic.

Then for music, if one likes seemless melding, and for Home Theater you like heavy LFE, to shake things up. You could spend all of your time adjusting the sub settings per source or worst yet, every song.

What about setting your AVR(yam 1800) to (both) instead of just to (sub).
Then the mains (Large) receive full signals, and the sub receives the below crossover signal? Then I have 3 speakers working on the low end all across the Front of the room.

I tried this for 30 seconds and the sound, sounded thick/bloated.
So before I spend hours adjusting, I thought I would post this question to find out if this is even a viable option to explore??

Thanks

What about setting your AVR(yam 1800) to (both) instead of just to (sub).
Then the mains (Large) receive full signals, and the sub receives the below crossover signal? Then I have 3 speakers working on the low end all across the Front of the room.

I tried this for 30 seconds and the sound, sounded thick/bloated.
So before I spend hours adjusting, I thought I would post this question to find out if this is even a viable option to explore??

Thanks
From my first post in this thread:

More importantly, speaker placement options are improved. If you run your speakers "full range", you need to consider bass response in the placement of the speakers. You may compromise the imaging and soundstage to improve the bass response. By re-routing the bass to the sub woofer(s), you remove that consideration from speaker placement. You are now free to place them in the very best positions for imaging and soundstage. You can then place the subwoofers where they interact best with the room and listening position for bass response.

Also, when you add the full range signal to the mains, you should recalibrate the system. However, even recalibrated, I too find most of these systems
to overemphasized the bass. There is one forum member that I know of who has 7 "full-range" towers plus a subwoofer for LFE. His username is otk. You could search for him and ask him how he manages all that bass output.

Craig

Someone is going to have tell me what all this talk about calibration is all about. I've read many times on this site that you set the x-over to 80 in the receiver, turn the phase to 0, set the x-over on the sub to it's highest setting and the gain to half and your done. What else is there to do?? I'm not trying to sound ignorant, i really don't know what else to do.

I'd still just run the sub cross as low as possible and set them to small. :)

Even 60hz will give awesome use to the 10" low end drivers.

Someone is going to have tell me what all this talk about calibration is all about. I've read many times on this site that you set the x-over to 80 in the receiver, turn the phase to 0, set the x-over on the sub to it's highest setting and the gain to half and your done. What else is there to do?? I'm not trying to sound ignorant, i really don't know what else to do.

What crossover you set is dependent on the frequency response of your speaker. Like Craig said a good starting point is one octave above your speakers -3b point.

The phase helps to integrate the sub with your mains. If your AVR has audessey or another type of auto-EQ leave the phase at 0 and run audessey. The distance it sets for the sub will take care of the phase.

One popular way to adjust phase if your AVR doesnt have this feature is by crossing the speaker wires on the fronts (wiring them out of phase) and playing a test tone at your crossover frequency. With your SPL meter ($50 RadioShack) measure the test tone at your main listening position while someone plays with the phase knob. When you get your lowest reading, switch the cables back and your sub and mains should be in phase.

I have no idea why they recommend switching the wires and measuring the lowest reading instead of leaving them and using the highest reading. But smarter people them me probably figured this out.

You should also calibrate all your speakers to 75db at the listening position with an SPL meter. Use the pink noise from the receiver. Some people like to set the sub a few dbs higher than the rest of the speakers. If the AVR doesnt have that, you will have to get the pinknoise from a disc or something. Someone on this forum created a nice DIY audio test dvd. and it's free. Search for it, it should come up.

Thats pretty much all that has to be done besides experimenting with placement. If you feel like going all out, you can download RoomEQwizard or something like that to fine tune things even more.

Thanks.

I feel silly for just using the mic set up on my Yamaha RX-V1800. I'll give it a try this weekend.

I am not too familiar with Yamaha receivers. but I believe yours come with YPAO which should take care of mainly everything I listed. For most people this would be fine. I would personally still purchase an SPL meter to go through everything, I know with audessey on my Onkyo, I do not like the crossover settings it chooses for my speakers. I would definitely double check all of its settings.

I am not too familiar with Yamaha receivers. but I believe yours come with YPAO which should take care of mainly everything I listed. For most people this would be fine. I would personally still purchase an SPL meter to go through everything, I know with audessey on my Onkyo, I do not like the crossover settings it chooses for my speakers. I would definitely double check all of its settings.
I previously had a Yammie with YPAO (RX-V4600) and I currently have an Onkyo (Onkyo Pro PR-SC885P) with Audyssey MultEQ XT, so I would like to comment on both.

First, YPAO does a great job of speaker sizes, levels and distances. I don't think you *need* an SPL meter to re-check the values of the trim settings. I'm not sure what cutoff point Yamaha uses for "large" vs "small", but I always reset them them to "small/80 Hz" anyway. The one thing I *don't* like about YPAO is the EQ settings. I never found any that I like better than not having them engaged. They all added a "phasey" indistinct nature to the sound. I shut them off and just used the EQ bypass.

Audyssey is a whole different animal. Where YPAO only measures on at one location and only EQ's for that one location in the frequency domain, Audyssey measures multiple locations, and EQ's over a broad spatial area in both the frequency *and* the time domains. It not only flattens the frequency response over multiple seats, it reduces ringing and overhang in the room. Bass in particular goes from loose and sloppy to clean and tight.

It does sometimes get crossover settings wrong. However, this is not "Audyssey's" fault. Audyssey simply measures the in-room -3 dB point of the speaker and reports it to the receiver/pre/pro. The manufacturer of the receiver/pre/pro decides what frequency to use for the cutoff of "large" vs. "small". Onkyo uses 80 Hz. IOW *any* speaker with response below 80 Hz is set to "large" at Onkyo's direction. Clearly, this is inappropriate. Audyssey actually recommends that speakers be set to "small" with an appropriate crossover. They are trying to get the numbskulls at Onkyo to change this. Denon has already done so and uses 40 Hz, which is better, but still sets many speakers to "large" which should be "small".

In any event, no matter what automatic room correction system one uses, a knowledge of what it is doing and what is *best* will allow the end user to optimize the results.

Craig

If i move it behind the sofa, how should i turn the sub. It is a Paradigm DSP-3400 14" front dual ported. There is a wall 3' on either side and 4' behind the sofa.