Hello,

My wife and I are just now starting to realize that we have all these channels through TWC and watch only a few. So we're considering dropping our TWC for OTA. However, the house we have now does not have a tower or anything, and no chimney. It's a 3 story 100 year old house, with a steep roof. I live in a neighborhood area, with many older, tall trees surrounding my house...some as high as 50'.

I looked at antennaweb and apparently all the stations I need to get are 50-70 miles away. We are in Mansfield, OH and would like to watch stations in Columbus and Cleveland.

I am curious to how elaborate a package I'm going to need to start OTA signal for my HDTV (which has a tuner in it). I've been doing some forum reading here on AVS, and research on antenna's, but I just can't seem to find a thread on 'getting started with OTA'. I know I need a rotator, some sort of amplifier, some sort of device to set the antenna in the air, and about 75' of coax cable. As far as I know, I can just run the OTA source into where TWC source is running into and I'll be alright, but I'm just a little confused.

Is it going to be too much hassle to set this up? Should I just stick with TWC and pay $65+ per month for HD and DVR? I hate to waste money on something I don't utilize :(, but I'm no electrician.

Thanks for any advice or help!

(If this is in the wrong thread, forgive me :()

If you can put up a gable mount would a 5 ft. mast put the antenna above the trees that are between you and the antenna towers or do have stations in different directions? Put your address or zip code in at antennaweb or tvfool and see where your stations are and how far away. You have to consider grounding the antenna to code (especially on a house the age of yours) and first you have to find out if you're in a historic district or not--they usually forbid a tv antenna or any other type. Plus you have to consider the coax run to where the set or sets will be and what type of antenna or antennas you'll need, possibly a rotor or even a pre-amp. Lots to deal with here. ANyway, plotting your address or zip code at tvfool would be a start. State your zip code here and I'm sure someone will know what you need.

Welcome!

In addition to the things bozey pointed out in his excellent advice, you'll need at least one good-sized antenna plus a rotor, since Columbus and Cleveland are in opposite directions. The following link is a terrific resource that's well worth the time even if it does get a bit technical:

Erecting a TV Antenna (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html)

The Mansfield area is kind of hilly or rolling, as I recall. If that's the case, with stations that far away, it can make a big difference whether you're in a relatively high or low spot. Enter your exact location into tvfool.com and see what you get.

I'm in rolling piedmont-type terrain, in a relatively high spot, and I get good reception out to about 75 miles from stations that are at a similar elevation. You can see some pictures of my setup at the link below.

Here is an interesting site.

cancelcable.com (http://www.cancelcable.com/)

It depends on your situation, but OTA can be a good solution, and would certainly pay for it self in 6 months to year. If your antenna doesn't get wrecked by a tree and you waterproof all your connections, it should work great for, well... decades.

If would tend to ignore the rubbish Antennaweb gives you. The listings are so conservative, you could probably get more with rabbit ears. Try TVFool instead. When posting, give us the pre and post-transition results.

Just for fun, I entered just "Mansfield, OH" into tvfool.com. The results showed the main Cleveland stations with signals that should be fairly reliably receivable with a setup like mine (probably comparable to my Columbia SC stations). The Columbus stations, on the other hand, are way down and probably receivable only at night with favorable atmospheric conditions. (A couple of my Charlotte stations are like that... I can get them about 2/3 to 3/4 of nights, this time of year, but not at all during the day.) Toledo stations actually come in stronger than the Columbus stations, although they're further away, because of flatter terrain in that direction.

Again, this probably varies strongly with location within Mansfield. I don't know the precise location that tvfool.com defaulted to with just the city name.

Thanks for all the help everyone, keep it coming!! Looks like I have a bit more research to do. My neighbor has an antenna, I'm going to go over and ask him how his reception is ;) I should have done that first...lol.

It may be easier for me to hire an installer, as I'm afraid of heights :(

From the looks of things, it looks like you gonna want the full "dream system:" combination of a Channel Master 7777 preamp, VHF-Hi yagi, Antennas Direct 91XG UHF antenna and a Channel Master 9251 Rotor.

(btw, we need TV Fool results for your specific address.

... it looks like you gonna want the full "dream system:" combination of a Channel Master 7777 preamp, VHF-Hi yagi, Antennas Direct 91XG UHF antenna and a Channel Master 9251 Rotor.

+1. Suggested VHF-high antenna: Winegard YA-1713.

Professional installation is a great idea that probably won't cost much more than three months' worth of your current cable bill (for labor, but not materials). In addition to system durability, a pro will know how to ground the antenna to code. Ask about this before you hire. The resulting peace of mind alone would be worth the cost. Not having to spend hours on the roof and/or high on a ladder? Priceless!

Another consideration pertains to your DVR: If the cable company supplied it, it probably cannot be used for OTA reception. Tivo can work with OTA, but Tivo also carries a monthly subscription fee. If you want to avoid that, buy a DVD recorder with a built-in ATSC (digital) tuner. While not quite as convenient as a hard-drive-based DVR, this setup gives you the ability to watch one show and record another at the same time.

From the looks of things, it looks like you gonna want the full "dream system:" combination of a Channel Master 7777 preamp, VHF-Hi yagi, Antennas Direct 91XG UHF antenna and a Channel Master 9251 Rotor.
Examining the TVFool output, one potential issue is that until the analog shutdown, the only relatively strong NBC signal (WKYC-DT) is on low VHF (2.1 on RF channel 3). It moves to 17 in February, but until then an OTA solution would need low VHF as well if NBC programming is needed -- unless they can pull in one of the more distant NBC affiliates listed in the -130s.

The Columbus stations look like they will be a tough "get" based on entering only the city. Toledo actually looks easier to receive.

I have a 91XG and YA-1713 pointed at the Austin stations 60 miles away and the results are terrific.

Ch 2: With a signal level like that, I'd just see what happens with a VHF-Hi yagi.

With less than six months to go, I wouldn't bother trying to get WKYC (Cleveland) either on analog 3 or digital 2. I'd go with a UHF + high-VHF solution, and keep a lifeline basic analog cable subscription until that station gets its new digital signal on the air on ch 17.

I have the same combination of antennas that ziggy29 and Don_M mention. Follow the link in my signature... that page has links to pictures of my setup.

Now that I think of it, I actually do get a watchable (although far from pristine) picture on analog ch 3 with my YA-1713 from about 70 miles, at least at night. I could live with it for a few months if I had to.

With less than six months to go, I wouldn't bother trying to get WKYC (Cleveland) either on analog 3 or digital 2. I'd go with a UHF + high-VHF solution, and keep a lifeline basic analog cable subscription until that station gets its new digital signal on the air on ch 17.
True. I forgot about that option -- that is indeed, IMO, the way to go since the low VHF issue will only be a concern for six more months.

If your HDTV has a QAM tuner, you could always drop the cable subscription to the lowest package, which is usually less than $20 per month. The QAM tuner will receive all local HD, that the cableco carries.

An antenna is always the best possible way to receive local HD. See the local topic for your area, found in the HDTV Locals Forum. Others in your specific area can offer their input for your reception questions.

If your HDTV has a QAM tuner, you could always drop the cable subscription to the lowest package, which is usually less than $20 per month. The QAM tuner will receive all local HD, that the cableco carries.

An antenna is always the best possible way to receive local HD. See the local topic for your area, found in the HDTV Locals Forum. Others in your specific area can offer their input for your reception questions.

So you're saying that if I still use lifeline basic (without a cable box) that I can still see my local channels in HD with a QAM tuner? Even though they're not provided through TWC? I assumed you needed the "digital cable upgrade" through TWC in order to access the hD channels.

TV FOOL results: http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

how do I get a link to them? this one doesn't work :(

Another question, although I think I know the answer: Can a basic DVR unit be used like the TWC DVR? I see DVR's for sale everywhere.

1.) So you're saying that if I still use lifeline basic (without a cable box) that I can still see my local channels in HD with a QAM tuner?

2.) Another question, although I think I know the answer: Can a basic DVR unit be used like the TWC DVR? I see DVR's for sale everywhere.1.) Yes. They should be passing those along to you. No "upgrade" needed. All you need is the $10. - $15.00 lifeline limited basic.

2.) As far as current models out there, only the Tivo's will let you record and watch in full HD. The Phiips and Magnavox HDD/DVD recorders that are being sold (at Walmart.com and Circuit City.com, etc.) have QAM tuners, but downscale all output to SD.

If you can find a used Sony DHG-HDD500 or 250, or an LG 3410a, those are fee-less, HD DVR's that will work with clear-QAM.

1.) Yes.



Really? No offense or anything, I believe you, but TWC acts like the only way to get HD from them is if you have the digital cable, and pay for a HD DVR box. I just find it shocking...so again, lol, I only have to pay $12 per month for basic local channels, and I'll get them in HD?!!? forgive me, I'm just surprised.

They just want to get you to order more. Don't believe them.

You definitely don't need the DVR model to get them. Even if they were encrypting the digital locals (which anyone rarely ever tries to get away with), you'd only need their HD tuner. They're just trying to upsell you. Threaten to cancel altogether and they'll change their tune real quick. Tell them you're getting Dish Network or something if they refuse to budge and still give you a hard time. I think you can get a locals-only package through them for only $10.00 - $15.00.

LOL. So...should I call and downgrade now then? Can I still keep my DVR? My wife say's she can't give that up.

TWC local lifeline basic for Mansfield: $11.72

Wow, I'm learning so much from this forum , you all rock.

A lot of companies won't let you have DVR service with just limited basic. So I don't know about that. You can fight with them about it and try.

If you and your wife can live with just SD from the DVR, those Philips/Magnavox DVR's I mentioned are as low as $210.00. You'd still be able to watch the full-rez HD through your TV's QAM tuner live (if it has one).

A lot of companies won't let you have DVR service with just limited basic. So I don't know about that. You can fight with them about it and try.

If you and your wife can live with just SD from the DVR, those Philips/Magnavox DVR's I mentioned are as low as $200.00.

eek, nah, we need the HD. Thats the only reason we upgraded to digital, we bought a HD TV and wanted to use it. I just want my local channels in HD, thats it. If I can get away with TWC basic and NOT have to install a antenna, I will be thrilled.

OK, but like I said, it's rare for any company to let you have the DVR with limited-basic-only. That's probably what they meant by you having to have all of that when you inquired.

Might have to consider TiVo, or the Sony or LG used that I mentioned.

Thanks for your help! I really appreciate it!:D

Glad to be able to help.

Alright, Talked to TWC, I can downgrade to basic $12 per month TV and still watch HD. However, I cannot keep my DVR :eek:

What do you all know about TiVo? Is it worth the $13 a month? I've been doing a bit of reading on it, but was wondering what you all thought.

You can often find the TiVoHD cheaper online, and you might want to consider just paying the one-time, lifetime (of the unit) fee, rather than paying monthly. I think you can still pre-pay for 1,2, or 3 years, at a cheaper price than monthly. But I'm not totally sure.

Check www.tivo.com.

eek, nah, we need the HD. Thats the only reason we upgraded to digital, we bought a HD TV and wanted to use it. I just want my local channels in HD, thats it. If I can get away with TWC basic and NOT have to install a antenna, I will be thrilled.

Have you seen what downrezzed SD looks like? As was mentioned this would be only for recordings - watching the TV live you'll still get HD via the TV's tuner. The Philips DVDr/HDD model will probably suffice for everyone but the PQ aficionados.:cool:

Have you seen what downrezzed SD looks like? As was mentioned this would be only for recordings - watching the TV live you'll still get HD via the TV's tuner. The Philips DVDr/HDD model will probably suffice for everyone but the PQ aficionados.:cool:

Actually no I have not seen what downrezzed SD looks like. How is it? Is it better than the SD on TWC? Because if that's the case, then no thank you. :) Rest assured, my wife and I are very picky when it comes to PQ.

Rest assured, my wife and I are very picky when it comes to PQ.

Then why do you have digital cable, rather than OTA :)

Rest assured, my wife and I are very picky when it comes to PQ.
Well, then you'll have to pay for that. You may want to browse the HD recorder threads for a QAM capable unit.

Then why do you have digital cable, rather than OTA :)

noted ;)

Honestly? I'm lazy, afraid of heights, and don't want to put down a $400 investment towards OTA equipment. I'm so torn!

noted ;)

Honestly? I'm lazy, afraid of heights, and don't want to put down a $400 investment towards OTA equipment. I'm so torn!

Actually, what I did was take baby steps to make sure OTA was going to be a feasible solution before blowing a lot of cash up front. First I just bought a 91XG and temporarily mounted it on a T-post in the back yard which is part of a dog run. I ran 50' of RG-6 into the house and checked the signal. Only 4' above the ground, once aimed right I was very happy with the picture; with very little height and crude aiming I was getting signals into the 60s. Total investment (so far): about $80.

Next I bought wall mounts to put it on the side of the garage and a couple of masts. I hung the 91XG on the mast (about 13' AGL), aimed and locked to the Austin locals. Great picture, mostly in the 80s and low 90s on the signal strength meter of my D* HR20-700. Total investment so far: $120.

Next I bought a YA-1713, a UVSJ, a few more feet of RG-6 and the hardware to ground the mast. I tested the YA-1713 on analog channel 7 (the current digital 56 on our Fox affiliate is going back to 7 in February) and secured it a couple feet below the 91XG and combined signals with the UVSJ. Total investment so far: $210.

Finally (so far) I purchased an HDP-269 preamp to get ready for splitting the line into three runs to the house (not done yet). I actually don't need any preamp to one line, but I think I will when I split the signal. I had to go with the HDP-269 because I have one very strong full-power signal about 8 miles away and anything else caused overload. Total so far: $270 over the course of about 2 1/2 months.

Next (eventually) will be the three-way splitter and running two more lines into the house. I'm fortunate that I don't need a rotor since all the stations I'm after are in the same direction on the same tower farm. That's just replacing a grounding block with a splitter, running the ground through the splitter to the ground rod and running two more lines into the house -- probably another $25 in parts. Total (for me), about $300.

I would have likely been reluctant to spend this all at once in case the experiment failed. But once the first low-cost "test" succeeded, I was motivated to slowly build on it, a little at a time, until I get the ultimate setup I want to have -- a strong OTA picture on all Austin locals in three rooms. And at that point, my two year commitment may be close to over so I'll have the ability to decide how much longer I want to pay $70-80 a month. Once I have a OTA HD DVR in place, between that, Netflix and our Wii, I think our TV would be able to provide us with enough entertainment without blowing nearly a grand a year for programming.

Honestly? I'm lazy, afraid of heights, and don't want to put down a $400 investment towards OTA equipment. I'm so torn!
This is the problem with many consumer financial decisions - few people take the time to do the overall math and instead go for the easy choice - "lower monthly payment". :rolleyes:

This is the problem with many consumer financial decisions - few people take the time to do the overall math and instead go for the easy choice - "lower monthly payment". :rolleyes:

:D I hear ya. I need to some more research, I am by no means decided yet. Going to ask my neighbor tomorrow how his reception is. Thanks for all the help everyone.

wrong place for this question, but how do I post TVFOOL results?

how do I post TVFOOL results?

ON the TVFool results page, click the "Save image" link to save the table on your computer. It's in the form of a PNG image.

When you post a message here, in the "Additional Options" section there's a "Manage Attachments" button. Click that, and use the popup window to select and upload the PNG file.

Ok, here are my TVFOOL results...
First two are Pre-Transition, second are Post-Transition.
Thanks for your assistance jtbell

Going to ask my neighbor tomorrow how his reception is.
Very good idea - no better info that someone else in the area.

Very good idea - no better info that someone else in the area.

Just talked to him. He hasn't used his antenna in a few years :(

Is this a decent antenna?

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5000835

It would be a good start - I would also recommend the rotator. Also place as high as you safely can. You may also need a good preamp.

Looks like you can pick up all the future stations with the Channel Master 4228. I have one in my attic and pick up stations 60 miles away with a 1500 foot mountain range between them. However, I live in a new subdivision where there are no trees.

Don't get the wal-mart antenna!

Go with the setup (91XG/10 element Yagi/rotor/CM 7777 pre-amp) I mentioned earlier. Just get it done right the first time.

Don't get the wal-mart antenna!

Go with the setup (91XG/10 element Yagi/rotor/CM 7777 pre-amp) I mentioned earlier. Just get it done right the first time.

Why would you suggest a preamp unless you know that the op needs one?

Go with the setup (91XG/10 element Yagi/rotor/CM 7777 pre-amp) I mentioned earlier. Just get it done right the first time.

I agree, except for the pre-amp. He's got (or will have) some low-power stations and translators right next door, almost. I'm worried that those signals will overload a CM 7777. A pre-amp with more resistance to overload, like the Winegard HDP-269 (not sure I've got the model number right) would probably be more suitable. The tradeoff is less gain (amplification), but that might not matter if he's not going to split the antenna signal several ways like I do.

Why would you suggest a preamp unless you know that the op needs one?

The key column in the tvfool list is the Rx(dBm) column, which gives the predicted signal strength. Note the numbers are all negative. dBm is a logarithmic scale, so going down 3 dBm cuts the signal in half, 6 dBm cuts it in 1/4, etc.

I use the 91XG / YA-1713 / 7777 combination myself. I can get stable reception most of the time (day and night) down to about -100 dBm. The next station down on my tvfool list jumps down to about -109 dBm, and I can get it (and lower stations) only occasionally at night, and not at all during the day.

In order for mujo to get all the major networks from Cleveland, he needs to get down to about -106 dBm (CBS), which means he needs all the help he can get. I'd tell him to go with a 7777 myself, if it weren't for those nearby stations.

I use the 91XG / YA-1713 / 7777 combination myself. I can get stable reception most of the time (day and night) down to about -100 dBm. The next station down on my tvfool list jumps down to about -109 dBm, and I can get it (and lower stations) only occasionally at night, and not at all during the day.

In order for mujo to get all the major networks from Cleveland, he needs to get down to about -106 dBm (CBS), which means he needs all the help he can get. I'd tell him to go with a 7777 myself, if it weren't for those nearby stations.
It's really interesting, because the stations I point my set up toward are in the -102 to -108 dBm range, and even before I added an HDP-269 they were coming in rock solid 24 hours a day. And with the preamp they all come in as if the towers were 6 miles away instead of 60. I guess as useful as the TVFool output is, it can't fully account for all variables in terrain and such.

I agree, except for the pre-amp. He's got (or will have) some low-power stations and translators right next door, almost. I'm worried that those signals will overload a CM 7777. A pre-amp with more resistance to overload, like the Winegard HDP-269 (not sure I've got the model number right) would probably be more suitable. The tradeoff is less gain (amplification), but that might not matter if he's not going to split the antenna signal several ways like I do.



The key column in the tvfool list is the Rx(dBm) column, which gives the predicted signal strength. Note the numbers are all negative. dBm is a logarithmic scale, so going down 3 dBm cuts the signal in half, 6 dBm cuts it in 1/4, etc.

I use the 91XG / YA-1713 / 7777 combination myself. I can get stable reception most of the time (day and night) down to about -100 dBm. The next station down on my tvfool list jumps down to about -109 dBm, and I can get it (and lower stations) only occasionally at night, and not at all during the day.

In order for mujo to get all the major networks from Cleveland, he needs to get down to about -106 dBm (CBS), which means he needs all the help he can get. I'd tell him to go with a 7777 myself, if it weren't for those nearby stations.

Thank you for the explanation. That's interesting. I do not have a preamp and my CM4228 is in my attic and I get 80 - 90 signal strength on stations that are -118 and -119. I even pull high 70's on a -129. I can't imagine what a preamp would do.