Sorry if this is posted in the wrong area, but there are a lot of knowledgeable people in this thread. In terms of PQ, Brightness, Black levels and processing, how do these two panels compare? I really don't want to wait another year for a Neo-PDP. Thanks for your help. I was ready to pull the trigger on the 11UK when I head about the VX100

i have a 9uk, beleive me, get a kuro or one of the neo pdps in 09. you'll be buying again when they come out regardless.

Sorry if this is posted in the wrong area, but there are a lot of knowledgeable people in this thread. In terms of PQ, Brightness, Black levels and processing, how do these two panels compare? I really don't want to wait another year for a Neo-PDP. Thanks for your help. I was ready to pull the trigger on the 11UK when I head about the VX100

Link to the HD Guru early report on the VX100 (http://hdguru.com/panasonic-premiere-th-65vx100-the-new-king-of-flat-panels-exclusive-first-review/276/). According to D-Nice, the black levels are akin to the Kuro 8G.

If you believe its specs it *should* have better black levels.
That said, this panel will be out in January, after CES.
So if you wait, you will also know what is coming...

- Rich

panny has dropped prices to sway the consumer away from the superior product(pioneer) in my honest opinion. when they drop this new tech and have some swagger to work with, dont be surprised if their heel is on the back of your neck along with pioneer.

I think Panasonic is much more concerned with the mainstream LCD and Plasma competition than they are with the higher end products from Pioneer.

Pricing is key. Most consumers expect technology to get better while prices get lower. I believe that we'll see PZ9x and PZ9xx prices decrease below their PZ8x and PZ8xx counterparts, although probably not by much. Going back to the 65" size that started our discussion, I would figure MSRP for a 65" PZ9xx at about $6k vs. today's $7k. We'll see if I am correct.

Now, VX100 prices will remain very high, and VX200 (assuming that's what they will be called) will also. This is where you'll see the proverbial heal on the neck, as you put it.

Anything new on the NEO PDP front? I wonder if we will see any improvements in the remotes such as backlighting. I wonder if the new units wil come without the analog tuner?

I wonder if the new units wil come without the analog tuner?Why would displays that are going to be release after the analog cutoff date have analog tuners????

Because cable cos. that don't go All-Digital will have to maintain Analog Locals for an addtl. three years until 2/12.;)

Because cable cos. that don't go All-Digital will have to maintain Analog Locals for an addtl. three years until 2/12.;)Those individuals would need to get a calbe box :)

Because cable cos. that don't go All-Digital will have to maintain Analog Locals for an addtl. three years until 2/12.;)

Really, that may explain the attrition going on with Comcast here in MA
I figured they would all be gone in 2009 due to the battle with FIOS.

- Rich

Comcast wants be almost all-Digital, Ltd. Basic being the exception, in all markets by about Spring '10. At that point, in each market, since they will not have any other Analog (Expd. Basic), they could drop Analog Ltd. Basic any time they want after that; they would just be keeping it as a customer conveniance.

I am looking to get a 42" Panny entry level for a secondary room at 9 ft. distance, so resolution is not an issue. I am debating getting a PX80U at the great prices offered or waiting for March for the new line. I know by then the entry level would be 1080p, but as I said, not an issue; I am more concerned with panel/stand weight. The current one will be a bit difficult to move around. Does anyone know how much (if any) reduction in weight there will be on the 'regular' (non-Neo) Pannys?

I have been planning to get the new Panasonic 850Z 65" at local BestBuy. But the moment I saw this Neo PDP news, I changed my plan -- wait until next year to get the Neo PDP -- thinner, better image quality, ... why not. It will last longer until SONY's Organic LED display hit 65" and has reasonable price ;)

Why would displays that are going to be release after the analog cutoff date have analog tuners????

EXACTLY!, Most people including me won't need them and I was not implying that I wanted one in a future unit purchase. There should be a small cost savings there. However, there will still be a small minority of people who access low power analog or analog from accross the border who may wish to still have an analog tuner. That would be an irony if a small demand was created in the coming years for an Analog to Digital TV signal converter. Nah, analog will be dead enough, that won't happen..

I have been planning to get the new Panasonic 850Z 65" at local BestBuy. But the moment I saw this Neo PDP news, I changed my plan -- wait until next year to get the Neo PDP -- thinner, better image quality, ... why not. It will last longer until SONY's Organic LED display hit 65" and has reasonable price ;)

When they come out at a premium price and then you find out in another 6 months something better will be out? Waiting game in electronics is pointless.

When they come out at a premium price and then you find out in another 6 months something better will be out? Waiting game in electronics is pointless.

as in the 10g pioneer?:D

When they come out at a premium price and then you find out in another 6 months something better will be out? Waiting game in electronics is pointless.

The waiting game is usually pointless, but when technology is slated to make a jump like is for next year's plasmas (at least those from Japan), there is some justification in waiting. Granted, the NeoPDPs probably won't be here til the 3rd quarter. But even then, it might be worth it if there is not an immediate need to purchase a display today.

Granted, the NeoPDPs probably won't be here til the 3rd quarter.Q2...part of my "the good news comment" :)

Q2...part of my "the good news comment" :)

Uh oh. So what's the bad news? ;)

I've already discussed some of the bad news.

I've already discussed some of the bad news.

Sorry, D-Nice, but I just double-checked this thread. So far, the bad news is

1) no 5-lumen tech on entry level Pannys (which is not surprising)
2) no analog tuners

If that's all the bad news there is, then I guess that's good news to me. ;)

Sorry, D-Nice, but I just double-checked this thread. So far, the bad news is

1) no 5-lumen tech on entry level Pannys (which is not surprising)
2) no analog tuners

If that's all the bad news there is, then I guess that's good news to me. ;)Black levels will not be superior to the 9G Kuros.

Black levels will not be superior to the 9G Kuros.
Ah. That doesn't bother me as long as it's not worse then the 8G Kuros.:eek:

Does that mean that they are on par with the 9Gs then? or maybe somewhere between 8G and 9G Kuros?

5 lumen tech with 9g pio black levels at best? I thought part of the 5 lumen tech was the 0.0fl black levels?

5 lumen tech with 9g pio black levels at best? I thought part of the 5 lumen tech was the 0.0fl black levels?Incorrect.

ECC...aka Pioneer 0fL technology... is NOT going to Panasonic. ECC requires 5 lumen tech but it is NOT exclusive 5 lumen tech.


Don't you think Panasonic would have been touting 0fL if they could achieve it with their version of 5 lumen tech ;)

Black levels will not be superior to the 9G Kuros.

What will they be?

- Rich

Are the 10Gs supposed to be on par with the Panasonics when it comes to peak light output?

Incorrect.

ECC...aka Pioneer 0fL technology... is NOT going to Panasonic. ECC requires 5 lumen tech but it is NOT exclusive 5 lumen tech.


Don't you think Panasonic would have been touting 0fL if they could achieve it with their version of 5 lumen tech ;)

Since ECC requires 5 lumens tech will the brightness of these sets be equilavent to the currents Kuro sets or brighter?

Q2...part of my "the good news comment" :)

So D-Nice, if I don't care about the weight, thickness or energy usage (I don't watch a lot) , as you don't want to talk about the Neopdp, I will ask it this way. What do I not get by buying the VX100 in Q1 vs. the Neo in Q2

Thanks Bob Hanson

So D-Nice, if I don't care about the weight, thickness or energy usage (I don't watch a lot) , as you don't want to talk about the Neopdp, I will ask it this way. What do I not get by buying the VX100 in Q1 vs. the Neo in Q2

Thanks Bob Hanson

It sounds like the neo PDP will be a lighter, thinner, more efficient version of the VX100, and ever so slightly blacker if I had to take a guess at it.

Seems like the neo pdp will not deem a purchase from current 9g pio owners. I think the 10g pio will be the hit of 09 and i am interested to see the pricing for the neo pdp. Pio will be touting performance, panny will be touting aesthetics and moderate improvement in pq. One could say they are of equal values but im more prone to buy a set for its innovation in pq once thought unacheivable in plasma. I knew in time sets would get this thin and now that its here, its really more of a convenience than anything, and i think ill pass for something more near perfection like the 10g elites.

It sounds like the neo PDP will be a lighter, thinner, more efficient version of the VX100, and ever so slightly blacker if I had to take a guess at it.

Yep. And just so things are clear as to what thinner means:

Current 65" VX100 monitor = 3.9" deep
NeoPDP 65" monitor = 1" deep

So the question is, how can the VX100 possibly remain in the lineup once the NeoPDP monitor arrives? It will offer nothing over the NeoPDP. It is for this reason that I expect the NeoPDP monitor to be labeled something like "VX200" and arrive as a direct replacement for the VX100. However, given the timing of the VX100, it seems unlikely that we'll see the replacement in Q2 when the other more conventional NeoPDPs (PZ9xx?) arrive. It doesn't seem to make sense for them to release the VX100 in January and then replace it by June. Instead, the successor could come later, maybe a lot later. Although, on the flip side, the current VX100 just uses the PF11UK chassis and electronics so it probably cost little to develop. Well, that aside from the new panel of course, but with the nearly 40% markup over the PF11UK, presumably that cost will be covered. It also does come with some new features such as the ability to store picture settings profiles but presumably all that R&D will transfer directly to the new display that succeeds it also. So perhaps it could indeed be a short six month model run? Who knows. I will be be watching this all play out with keen interest.

As for BOB HAN, well, do you worry at all about buyer's remorse? If not, the VX100 makes sense if you truly need a display by early next year.

not true.... there are a lot of 9G owners that have a 50" and want a bigger TV.

and you have to wait for them to come out first before you can draw any conclusions.

Seems like the neo pdp will not deem a purchase from current 9g pio owners. I think the 10g pio will be the hit of 09 and i am interested to see the pricing for the neo pdp. Pio will be touting performance, panny will be touting aesthetics and moderate improvement in pq. One could say they are of equal values but im more prone to buy a set for its innovation in pq once thought unacheivable in plasma. I knew in time sets would get this thin and now that its here, its really more of a convenience than anything, and i think ill pass for something more near perfection like the 10g elites.

not true.... there are a lot of 9G owners that have a 50" and want a bigger TV.

and you have to wait for them to come out first before you can draw any conclusions.

im just saying in overall "speculation" in picture quality, it wouldn't make any sense to buy a neo pdp unless you needed something thinner and more energy efficient above anything else, which is rare. i was counting on neo pdp's to be more competitive with the kuros. from what im reading on here its not going to happen. that would allow pioneer to keep the price at a high premium with no one coming close to their pq advancements. to have 5 lumen tech and not release absolute black levels like pioneer is planning on doing is a real dissappointment. they know what to do it just seems they arent doing it.

im just saying in overall "speculation" in picture quality, it wouldn't make any sense to buy a neo pdp unless you needed something thinner and more energy efficient above anything else, which is rare. i was counting on neo pdp's to be more competitive with the kuros. from what im reading on here its not going to happen. that would allow pioneer to keep the price at a high premium with no one coming close to their pq advancements. to have 5 lumen tech and not release absolute black levels like pioneer is planning on doing is a real dissappointment. they know what to do it just seems they arent doing it.

Maybe Panny doesn't know what to do to achieve 0 fl. just yet, even with 5 lumen tech. Pioneer isn't going to give away all it's secrets even though they are working with Panny on the glass.

Yep. And just so things are clear as to what thinner means:

Current 65" VX100 monitor = 3.9" deep
NeoPDP 65" monitor = 1" deep

So the question is, how can the VX100 possibly remain in the lineup once the NeoPDP monitor arrives? It will offer nothing over the NeoPDP. It is for this reason that I expect the NeoPDP monitor to be labeled something like "VX200" and arrive as a direct replacement for the VX100. However, given the timing of the VX100, it seems unlikely that we'll see the replacement in Q2 when the other more conventional NeoPDPs (PZ9xx?) arrive. It doesn't seem to make sense for them to release the VX100 in January and then replace it by June. Instead, the successor could come later, maybe a lot later. Although, on the flip side, the current VX100 just uses the PF11UK chassis and electronics so it probably cost little to develop. Well, that aside from the new panel of course, but with the nearly 40% markup over the PF11UK, presumably that cost will be covered. It also does come with some new features such as the ability to store picture settings profiles but presumably all that R&D will transfer directly to the new display that succeeds it also. So perhaps it could indeed be a short six month model run? Who knows. I will be be watching this all play out with keen interest.

As for BOB HAN, well, do you worry at all about buyer's remorse? If not, the VX100 makes sense if you truly need a display by early next year.


I have waited 3 years to replace my 50" 600U. A lot of improvements have taken place since then. If the Neo was going to have substantially better Blacks, Processing, Brightness and Contrast than the VX100, I would wait. But if the VX100 accomplishes most of the picture improvements of the Neo, then I will pull the trigger. Thickness and weight are not an issue as it will be placed inside an Entertainment cabinet that is designed for 300lbs. Power consumption is not really an issue because with 2 young kids, I spend most of my time coaching sports anyway. No remorse here. The big question I have is who will be able to sell the VX100. Panasonic did not respond to my inquiry. Visual Apex said they doubted they could carry it, others have not heard. If it is one of the forum sponsors, the price should be affordable, if it is only B&M high-end stores, then the price may be out of reach. Thanks for the input.

Black levels will not be superior to the 9G Kuros.

Blacks not as good as 9G Kuros? Glad I picked up a 50pz80u at a killer price.

Black levels will not be superior to the 9G Kuros.

Blacks not as good as 9G Kuros? Glad I picked up a 50pz80u at a killer price.

You've perhaps gotten your facts wrong once or twice before in your day?

Tid-bits.....

Panasonic marketing is attempting to tag the NeoPDPs with a 2,000,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio. I also heard that they are going to claim the native contrast ratio will be the same 60,000:1 as the VX100 or 100,000:1.....with the latter being more probable (marketing, marketing, marketing). Hopefully they will be about to achieve at least half of the 100,000:1 post calibration....hopefully.

Any tidbits on the PZ9xx line-up?

Any tidbits on the PZ9xx line-up?The pz9xx is what he's probably talking about. Unless they signify the neopdps by calling them VX200 or something like that.

Tid-bits.....

Panasonic marketing is attempting to tag the NeoPDPs with a 2,000,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio. I also heard that they are going to claim the native contrast ratio will be the same 60,000:1 as the VX100 or 100,000:1.....with the latter being more probable (marketing, marketing, marketing). Hopefully they will be about to achieve at least half of the 100,000:1 post calibration....hopefully.

Will the lower models next year (non-neopdp) have the same black levels as the vx100? I remember you said those models would be a hybrid of the 800u and vx100 tech.

Also, I know this is sort of unrelated, but what kind of improvements can we expect from LG and Samsung next year? I haven't heard much from them.

Tid-bits.....

Panasonic marketing is attempting to tag the NeoPDPs with a 2,000,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio. I also heard that they are going to claim the native contrast ratio will be the same 60,000:1 as the VX100 or 100,000:1.....with the latter being more probable (marketing, marketing, marketing). Hopefully they will be about to achieve at least half of the 100,000:1 post calibration....hopefully.

Hey D,
It was going to happen sooner or later. :D Man its all Samsung's fault for claiming their LCD's at 1,000,000:1. Panasonic just had to be first to claim the unimaginable. Yep it does wonders for uneducated consumers.

Big question is pricing. What MSRP (ballpark) are we looking at for 50", 58", and 65"?

Chris

You guys keep stroking yourselves about who will have true blacks in 2009, do you guys ever get laid?

The difference in Black levels in 2009 between the two will not be a night and day difference so who cares that one hits .000 FL and one hits .002 FL, or whatever.

It's not going to be noticed in the real world settings.

It's funny how dumb people are to spend an extra $1500+ just for a marginal improvement in black levels. Hahaha, people have too much money to waste.

The difference in Black levels in 2009 between the two will not be a night and day difference so who cares that one hits .000 FL and one hits .002 FL, or whatever.The same people who currently care about the difference in a 0.0008fL black level (9G Kuro) and the other displays.

It's not going to be noticed in the real world settings.That depends on your room lighting.

It's funny how dumb people are to spend an extra $1500+ just for a marginal improvement in black levels. Hahaha, people have too much money to waste.Hahaha, why don't you leave this thread and let those who care continue to want more :)

Hey D,
It was going to happen sooner or later. :D Man its all Samsung's fault for claiming their LCD's at 1,000,000:1. Panasonic just had to be first to claim the unimaginable. Yep it does wonders for uneducated consumers.

Big question is pricing. What MSRP (ballpark) are we looking at for 50", 58", and 65"?

ChrisI don't know anything about the pricing.

The same people who currently care about the difference in a 0.0008fL black level (9G Kuro) and the other displays.

That depends on your room lighting.

Hahaha, why don't you leave this thread and let those who care continue to want more :)

No, because there is no balance in this thread unless someone says it.

Everything must have balance even threads.

I've pretty much been a LCD guy but have been strongly considering going to plasma. I did read somewhere (believe it was in the LCD forums) that the new NEO PDP's from Panasonic still have that flicker issue (assuming its the 24fps that was being refered to). Don't know if that is true but if it is Panasonic needs to get that problem fixed before they release them.

no, because there is no balance in this thread unless someone says it.

Everything must have balance even threads.

well if i wanted to get laid id go to a socials forum. Your in a thread dedicated to this kind of subject matter and you have the gaul to say your promoting balance by telling us to move on with our lives? In this thread?!?! You sir are an idiot. And a bigot.

So does anyone have any info on the normal 09 models? (the upgrades of the pz80/85) What should we expect from the normal sets?

My questions are....

Real black drive, will this be in these units? (or at least have the option to turn it off?)
any idea of the bezel design? (Panasonic has been pretty iffy in the past with this)
any other improvments over the current pz80/85? (black levels, picture noise, phosphor trails....)

I just hope the entry level Panasonic Plasma TV's for 2009 have more accurate colors than 2008.... becaused they missed the ball in 2008!

a red push I believe.

So does anyone have any info on the normal 09 models? (the upgrades of the pz80/85) What should we expect from the normal sets?

My questions are....

Real black drive, will this be in these units? (or at least have the option to turn it off?)
any idea of the bezel design? (Panasonic has been pretty iffy in the past with this)
any other improvments over the current pz80/85? (black levels, picture noise, phosphor trails....)

I just hope the entry level Panasonic Plasma TV's for 2009 have more accurate colors than 2008.... becaused they missed the ball in 2008!

a red push I believe.

My current 42px75 has a terrible green push on everything but the "cool" color temp. (and I have been able to correct the overly cool look the picture has in this mode with some setting tweaks) So it is probably possible to get rid of it with enough work. (even if you have to give up a bit of color accuracy to do so)

Of course with Samsung offering all these menu settings on even their entry level models (which allow for near perfect color calibration), Panasonic really does need to step it up in that area.

[QUOTE]Black levels will not be superior to the 9G Kuros./QUOTE]

Do you know how close they will be?

You guys keep stroking yourselves about who will have true blacks in 2009, do you guys ever get laid?

The difference in Black levels in 2009 between the two will not be a night and day difference so who cares that one hits .000 FL and one hits .002 FL, or whatever.

It's not going to be noticed in the real world settings.

It's funny how dumb people are to spend an extra $1500+ just for a marginal improvement in black levels. Hahaha, people have too much money to waste.IMO my 141 9G Kuro still has a fairly strong minimum luminence during low APL scenes in zero ambient light. I expect that in this environment zero luminence will be a huge improvement. Sorry, I guess I'm one of the "dumb people" :rolleyes:

I guess I'm one of the "dumb people" :rolleyes:
I'm sure that he meant it to be a compliment.:)

I sent Panasonic an email as who would be selling the VX100 in the Seattle area. Panasonic did not contact me, but they had a salesperson from Definitive Audio contact me. They are a very high end custom installer, and usually don't discount. The articles for the VX100 say it will be sold by Custom installers. If companies like the forum sponsors do not sell these, and only ultra high-end stores do, that means they will sell for about MSRP, not 75% of MSRP which puts them at about double of the Pro 11UK. I think that would be very hard to justify. Bob H

well if i wanted to get laid id go to a socials forum. Your in a thread dedicated to this kind of subject matter and you have the gaul to say your promoting balance by telling us to move on with our lives? In this thread?!?! You sir are an idiot. And a bigot.

Lol, great points!

Tid-bits.....

Panasonic marketing is attempting to tag the NeoPDPs with a 2,000,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio. I also heard that they are going to claim the native contrast ratio will be the same 60,000:1 as the VX100 or 100,000:1.....with the latter being more probable (marketing, marketing, marketing). Hopefully they will be about to achieve at least half of the 100,000:1 post calibration....hopefully.
What is your bias? I ask because you always are so pro Pioneer and denigrate Panasonic every chance you get.

The Kuros have fluctuating black levels as documented in several Home Theater reviews which have already been posted. In fact the Pioneers dynamic real world black level is a lot poorer than the static figure (after 15 seconds of no signal) you continuously quote. The whites flucualte by a 3:1 ratio too.
These are tricks being played at both end of the contrast range spectrum.
A pot calling the kettle black?

What will it take get to the bottom and present a balanced perspective to the consumer?
Have an advocate from Panasonic marketing in this forum and let you two slug it out? That would be Damn-Nice!
But in reality all this load here at AVS (watch out for the dump truck backing up now - Biff) will be overcome when the 2009 NeoPDP go on sale.

What is your bias? I ask because you always are so pro Pioneer and denigrate Panasonic every chance you get.

The Kuros have fluctuating black levels as documented in several Home Theater reviews which have already been posted. In fact the Pioneers dynamic real world black level is a lot poorer than the static figure (after 15 seconds of no signal) you continuously quote. The whites flucualte by a 3:1 ratio too.
These are tricks being played at both end of the contrast range spectrum.
A pot calling the kettle black?

What will it take get to the bottom and present a balanced perspective to the consumer?
Have an advocate from Panasonic marketing in this forum and let you two slug it out? That would be Damn-Nice!
But in reality all this load here at AVS (watch out for the dump truck backing up now - Biff) will be overcome when the 2009 NeoPDP go on sale.

Uh oh! Now you have done it. Can someone please pass the popcorn?

The Kuros have fluctuating black levels as documented in several Home Theater reviews which have already been posted. In fact the Pioneers dynamic real world black level is a lot poorer than the static figure (after 15 seconds of no signal) you continuously quote. The whites flucualte by a 3:1 ratio too.


This has been explained ad nauseum, if you don't understand you never will. The black level is elevated when the TV is turned on, a few seconds later it hits it's "regular" black level. If you don't touch anything and leave it on a blank input it will hit absolute black (0fl), as soon as you do anything the whole cycle repeats.

While you are actually viewing content the black level will always stay at the "regular" level which is the level all the reviews and D-Nice have been using for their measurements.

What is your bias? I ask because you always are so pro Pioneer and denigrate Panasonic every chance you get.

The Kuros have fluctuating black levels as documented in several Home Theater reviews which have already been posted. In fact the Pioneers dynamic real world black level is a lot poorer than the static figure (after 15 seconds of no signal) you continuously quote. The whites flucualte by a 3:1 ratio too.
These are tricks being played at both end of the contrast range spectrum.
A pot calling the kettle black?

What will it take get to the bottom and present a balanced perspective to the consumer?
Have an advocate from Panasonic marketing in this forum and let you two slug it out? That would be Damn-Nice!
But in reality all this load here at AVS (watch out for the dump truck backing up now - Biff) will be overcome when the 2009 NeoPDP go on sale.In addition to being our biggest source for pioneer info, he's also our biggest source for panasonic info as well. And if you want him to stop posting pre-release information... You can do that. Believe it or not ALL plasmas have an ABL for the whites. The whites themselves don't fluctuate (at the xy coordinates), but the brightness of them (Y). The whites always remain at .3127 and at .3290 for D-6500 reference (depending on the calibration). One home theater review says that. What about the other reviews that say that their meters can't even measure the black level? In addition, he's quoting the black level BEFORE the 25 second shut off because after that the blacks=0.0000F.

By the way, have you seen how badly the Panasonics fluctuate due to their "real black drive". If you haven't then you'll notice. He isn't biased towards the Pioneers. He's biased towards whatever is best, which at the moment are the pioneers. He as contacts in the industry for both brands, and believe it or not 5-lumen tech (which is what Panasonic calls NEO-PDP) was not developed by panasonic alone. IT was developed by Panasonic, Pioneer, and Hitachi working together. Panasonic is just getting it out more to the average joe.

P.S. If you want to, you can put him on your block list so you can't read his "biased" posts.

P.P.S. Patrick stated it well. The blacks are much higher during start up.

I have the 60" 8G Kuro Elite.

For me to "upgrade" my TV, I would need "absolute black" and/or larger sizes than 60".
70" would be best :)

Will any of this happen in 2009 you think?

Or will I have to wait to 2010?

/Martin

I sent Panasonic an email as who would be selling the VX100 in the Seattle area. Panasonic did not contact me, but they had a salesperson from Definitive Audio contact me. They are a very high end custom installer, and usually don't discount. The articles for the VX100 say it will be sold by Custom installers. If companies like the forum sponsors do not sell these, and only ultra high-end stores do, that means they will sell for about MSRP, not 75% of MSRP which puts them at about double of the Pro 11UK. I think that would be very hard to justify. Bob H

Quite possibly you will be forced into prices near or at MSRP for the VX100, yes.

If you are not dead set on a monitor-only solution, its possible next years PZ9xx will offer much better pricing and equivalent (or perhaps even better in some ways) PQ to the VX100. Of course no one knows yet if this lineup will be where Panasonic decides to go with the NeoPDP tech, but it seems likely unless they plan to add yet another consumer lineup.

Anybody know if the 58" size will trickle down to 9x models as opposed to higher end 9xx models for 2009?

The Kuros have fluctuating black levels as documented in several Home Theater reviews which have already been posted. In fact the Pioneers dynamic real world black level is a lot poorer than the static figure (after 15 seconds of no signal) you continuously quote. The whites flucualte by a 3:1 ratio too.

Whoa I guess I haven't been paying attention. I thought that it was Panasonic that had the fluctuating blacks? If this is the case all plasma do it. I read where XB said his whites fluctuates what was news to me.

This issue is why I don't own a plasma and I would buy a NEO if theres no fluctuation but will these new NEO's have stable blacks and whites?

Anybody know if the 58" size will trickle down to 9x models as opposed to higher end 9xx models for 2009?

It does seem possible. Hopefully, only a 58PZ950U with THX instead of PZ900 and PZ950. Stirs too much confusion.

Chris

Whoa I guess I haven't been paying attention. I thought that it was Panasonic that had the fluctuating blacks? If this is the case all plasma do it. I read where XB said his whites fluctuates what was news to me.

HiFiFun is correct. Pioneer black level has the following cycle(EU model):

"Whenever the Pioneer PDP-LX5090 was powered on from standby, it would display a lighter black level of 0.076 cd/m2 for about 15 seconds, after which the on-screen brightness would drop in 3 quick successions to settle at the plasma's idling luminance. If a completely black screen (e.g. blank input or 0% stimulus test pattern) was held for longer than 45 seconds, the screen would automatically switch off (i.e. achieving zero luminance), and remain so until there's a change in on-screen content, at which point the whole cycle would repeat (meaning that the PDP-LX5090 would behave as if it'd just been powered on from standby, and begin again with 0.076 cd/m2 blacks)."

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PDP-LX5090/Calibration.htm

Black level floating can be seen with real content:

"On some occasions, when I switched from a bright white test pattern to video black, the black level appeared slightly elevated (measured at 0.008 ft-L). After a few seconds, it dropped to the 0.000-ft-L level. After another 15 seconds or so, it would drop further, to total black (judged by eye). Most of the time, the first drop was to the 0.000-ft-L “measured” level. In the 30 to 40 hours I spent watching real program material, however, I only recall seeing that 0.008-ft-L level once or twice."

http://www.hometheatermag.com/plasmadisplays/908piokuro/index3.html

White level floating can be shown with the following measurements(EU model):

http://i36.tinypic.com/2lufe45.png

I don't think that NEO-PDP will solve floating black problem, unless zero reset driving is used. Floating whites are almost certain.

You no longer worth my conversation time. As others have already pointed out, the Kuros don't float black and nor do they float white. If you are attempting to say an ABL circuit causes Kuors to float white, you have hit a new AVS low. ALL plasmas have ABL circuits. They have been there since day 1 and will continue to be there. Just remember ABL circuits will also be in your beloved NeoPDPs :p


One more thing....

The current Panasonics have a startup sequence too (what you claim are floating blacks on the Kuros. The NeoPDPs will also have a startup sequence...so by your definition they will also float black :eek:What is your bias? I ask because you always are so pro Pioneer and denigrate Panasonic every chance you get.

The Kuros have fluctuating black levels as documented in several Home Theater reviews which have already been posted. In fact the Pioneers dynamic real world black level is a lot poorer than the static figure (after 15 seconds of no signal) you continuously quote. The whites flucualte by a 3:1 ratio too.
These are tricks being played at both end of the contrast range spectrum.
A pot calling the kettle black?

What will it take get to the bottom and present a balanced perspective to the consumer?
Have an advocate from Panasonic marketing in this forum and let you two slug it out? That would be Damn-Nice!
But in reality all this load here at AVS (watch out for the dump truck backing up now - Biff) will be overcome when the 2009 NeoPDP go on sale.

A panel's startup sequence is not floating blacks Sampo. Don't attempt to jump into the fire with your own nonsense that has been debunked many times throughout the years.

Nothing you just posted defines floating blacks (aka DC restoration).HiFiFun is correct. Pioneer black level has the following cycle(EU model):

"Whenever the Pioneer PDP-LX5090 was powered on from standby, it would display a lighter black level of 0.076 cd/m2 for about 15 seconds, after which the on-screen brightness would drop in 3 quick successions to settle at the plasma's idling luminance. If a completely black screen (e.g. blank input or 0% stimulus test pattern) was held for longer than 45 seconds, the screen would automatically switch off (i.e. achieving zero luminance), and remain so until there's a change in on-screen content, at which point the whole cycle would repeat (meaning that the PDP-LX5090 would behave as if it'd just been powered on from standby, and begin again with 0.076 cd/m2 blacks)."

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PDP-LX5090/Calibration.htm

Black level floating can be seen with real content:

"On some occasions, when I switched from a bright white test pattern to video black, the black level appeared slightly elevated (measured at 0.008 ft-L). After a few seconds, it dropped to the 0.000-ft-L level. After another 15 seconds or so, it would drop further, to total black (judged by eye). Most of the time, the first drop was to the 0.000-ft-L “measured” level. In the 30 to 40 hours I spent watching real program material, however, I only recall seeing that 0.008-ft-L level once or twice."

http://www.hometheatermag.com/plasmadisplays/908piokuro/index3.html

White level floating can be shown with the following measurements(EU model):

http://i36.tinypic.com/2lufe45.png

I don't think that NEO-PDP will solve floating black problem, unless zero reset driving is used. Floating whites are almost certain.

A panal's startup sequence is not floating blacks. Don't attempt to just into the fire with your nonsense that has been debunked many times throught the years.

So Pioneer will begin startup sequence when bright scene is shown? Seems like dynamic contrast, floating blacks, etc to me.

"On some occasions, when I switched from a bright white test pattern to video black, the black level appeared slightly elevated (measured at 0.008 ft-L). After a few seconds, it dropped to the 0.000-ft-L level. After another 15 seconds or so, it would drop further, to total black (judged by eye). Most of the time, the first drop was to the 0.000-ft-L “measured” level. In the 30 to 40 hours I spent watching real program material, however, I only recall seeing that 0.008-ft-L level once or twice."

http://www.hometheatermag.com/plasmadisplays/908piokuro/index3.html

So Pioneer will begin startup sequence when bright scene is shown? Seems like dynamic contrast, floating blacks, etc to me.That entire quote stems from the author stopping a bright white test pattern and then waiting 45 seconds before sending a 0% stimuli pattern to the display. Don't believe me, feel free to email Thomas ;)

I think its odd that this far after the 9g release a floating black problem would suddenly arise. Hell, i bet there would be a dedicated thread for the subject matter. I think these claims are bogus or completely misunderstood. I dont own a kuro so i couldnt tell you first hahd. Just wanted to point that out.

...I read where XB said his whites fluctuates what was news to me...

You don't actually see white levels changing. What I was trying to say is that the brightness of white levels can vary due to how bright a scene is.
A very simple way of displaying is if someone has PC connected, you can simply open up Windows Explorer and resizing it to a very small screen. Doing this will give you a reference white level. If you drag the corner of Windows Explorer and as you increase the size you'll eventually see the white levels decrease in brightness(it's subtle but definitely noticable). And I'm sure this is the ABL which would do this in any plasma. I've no idea what HiFiFun is talking about in floating blacks as I've never seen that on either Pioneer I've owned.

I am loving my week old 5020 and if the blacks can get better I still won't be suffering from buyers remorse. I'll try drinking more to see if they start floating. Just looking forward to finishing the break-in at 7 pm tonight and then its time to watch Dark Knight. Can we get back on track regarding the 12Gs instead of debating the lack of Pioneer and Panasonic's black level performance. DNICE has better things to do with his time. I appreciate the information he has shared about the upcoming Panasonic's as well as the thoughts of others on this forum in regards to the topic of the thread. Before you know someone will start discussing plasma vs. LCD.

i am loving my week old 5020 and if the blacks can get better i still won't be suffering from buyers remorse. I'll try drinking more to see if they start floating. Just looking forward to finishing the break-in at 7 pm tonight and then its time to watch dark knight. can we get back on track regarding the 12gs instead of debating the lack of pioneer and panasonic's black level performance. Dnice has better things to do with his time. I appreciate the information he has shared about the upcoming panasonic's as well as the thoughts of others on this forum in regards to the topic of the thread. Before you know someone will start discussing plasma vs. Lcd.

taking the bolded comments into consideration, why would you want more info on the neo pdp's?

Because its fun to keep up with technology and help friends and family looking to purchase a new TV. Not everyone can afford a Pioneer nor would I always recommend one depending on the circurmstances. I had a Panny 85Z prior to the Kuro, the Panny was a good TV but I was able to buy the Kuro for only a few hundred more before my return window ended. The new Panasonics may be great alternative, who knows what the pricing will be for the next generation Kuros. Maybe I'll be in the market for Panasonic if the economy improves sometime next year to replace an older LCD.

Whoa I guess I haven't been paying attention. I thought that it was Panasonic that had the fluctuating blacks? If this is the case all plasma do it. I read where XB said his whites fluctuates what was news to me.

This issue is why I don't own a plasma and I would buy a NEO if theres no fluctuation but will these new NEO's have stable blacks and whites?
Maybe the current Panasonic's fluctuate too: I don't know. If they do they better fix it in the new NeoPDP design.

Fluctuating Black Reports - Home Theater:
-----------------------------------------
"I did note a black-level oddity that I first saw on the PDP-6020. When I switched quickly from a bright white test pattern to video black, the black level would initially be elevated."
http://hometheatermag.com/plasmadisplays/pioneer_elite_kuro_pro-111fd_plasma_hdtv/index4.html

"On some occasions (the 6020) , when I switched from a bright white test pattern to video black, the black level appeared slightly elevated (measured at 0.008 ft-L). After a few seconds, it dropped to the 0.000-ft-L level. After another 15 seconds or so, it would drop further, to total black (judged by eye). Most of the time, the first drop was to the 0.000-ft-L “measured” level. In the 30 to 40 hours I spent watching real program material, however, I only recall seeing that 0.008-ft-L level once or twice."
http://hometheatermag.com/plasmadisplays/908piokuro/index3.html

Video signal levels are unpredictable. (Please do not rationalize this fact.)
Going from varying degrees of white to black is quite common.
So how much is the black elevated after showing white? What is the real-world contrast ratio? Note this measurement is hard to make as the Kuro goes blacker quickly after just a few seconds. :) But since there are 24-30 video frames/second it last for up to180 frames, which anyone can see.

Real-World Kuro Native Measured Contrast 17.4/0.008 = 2175

White Level Rationalizations
--------------------------
"All plasmas dim their output, to remain within the capabilities of their power supplies, as the average picture brightness level increases. This dimming is not apparent to the eye."
Not apparent My-Arse as any casual Joe (or even Simple Jack) can see the difference even at Best Buy. In fact this is usually one of the first comments. Shame on Tom Norton for making the huge gaffe.
http://hometheatermag.com/plasmadisplays/508piok150/index4.html

Are you serious? I mean, are you REALLY serious? Do you know how silly you sound right about now?

Kuros are well over 60,000:1 (post calibration) for a contrast ratio. You DO NOT measure any plasma's peak white with a full field white window.


Stop filling this thread with your FUD. better yet stick to the damn topic of N2009 Panasonics. Whoops, you don't know jack about that either :p

Maybe the current Panasonic's fluctuate too: I don't know. If they do they better fix it in the new NeoPDP design.

Fluctuating Black Reports - Home Theater:
-----------------------------------------
"I did note a black-level oddity that I first saw on the PDP-6020. When I switched quickly from a bright white test pattern to video black, the black level would initially be elevated."
http://hometheatermag.com/plasmadisplays/pioneer_elite_kuro_pro-111fd_plasma_hdtv/index4.html

"On some occasions (the 6020) , when I switched from a bright white test pattern to video black, the black level appeared slightly elevated (measured at 0.008 ft-L). After a few seconds, it dropped to the 0.000-ft-L level. After another 15 seconds or so, it would drop further, to total black (judged by eye). Most of the time, the first drop was to the 0.000-ft-L “measured” level. In the 30 to 40 hours I spent watching real program material, however, I only recall seeing that 0.008-ft-L level once or twice."
http://hometheatermag.com/plasmadisplays/908piokuro/index3.html

Video signal levels are unpredictable. (Please do not rationalize this fact.)
Going from varying degrees of white to black is quite common.
So how much is the black elevated after showing white? What is the real-world contrast ratio? Note this measurement is hard to make as the Kuro goes blacker quickly after just a few seconds. :) But since there are 24-30 video frames/second it last for up to180 frames, which anyone can see.

Real-World Kuro Native Measured Contrast 17.4/0.008 = 2175

White Level Rationalizations
--------------------------
"All plasmas dim their output, to remain within the capabilities of their power supplies, as the average picture brightness level increases. This dimming is not apparent to the eye."
Not apparent My-Arse as any casual Joe (or even Simple Jack) can see the difference even at Best Buy. In fact this is usually one of the first comments. Shame on Tom Norton for making the huge gaffe.
http://hometheatermag.com/plasmadisplays/508piok150/index4.html

After reading the last page, which has the same information that has already been posted many times on previous pages, something is becoming very clear.

refuses to except that he is out to lunch
posts the same thing over and over again knowing it is bogus
2 pals are here to make current happy buyers angry
Potential buyers will know without a doubt to not listen, and they could care less...it is the current happy owners that have to stick up for the rediculous claims being made.

Maybe if you read the explatation real slow or have a friend read it to you real slow, the understanding part my find its way.

The absolute best advice given....call up or email the reviewer that you quote/misquote 10 times a week and let him explain in his own proffessional terminology.....why what you are posting is nothing close to what he wanted to say. Taking his words out of context and applying some twisted adgenda to it is wearing very thin.

I vote to ban such an instigator that after reviewing this entire thread we can see the ovious motive...no new information...false/proven false facts being regurgitated for no reason except to anger....I will not put myself through anymore rediculous posts.

Give the home theatre mag a call allready...if the source calls you a nut after you won't listen to reason....won't matter you will knowingly spew the same ole junk ...which means you need to be banned AGAIN.

I vote to close this thread. It is a waste of the first page in this forum.

Honestly, some posts here are a disservice to folks who are considering a Panasonic next year. I swear, it seems some folks are paid to be here...

better yet stick to the damn topic of N2009 Panasonics.

no sh*t. I don't post much, because I don't have much to add, but I read a ton of posts, I'm a pharmacist and not a "tech" guy or anything so I can't really tell who's full of BS and who's not, but I am looking to buy a plasma, and have decided to wait for CES and see what comes.

I don't want this thread closed because I'm dying for any info on any of the neopdps (Panny, Pioneer, Hitachi). If it does have to be closed, we need another one for any news.

Next year will be exciting PDPs, so some of y'all need to get over yourselves and just be excited for all the new developments.

After reading the last page, which has the same information that has already been posted many times on previous pages, something is becoming very clear.

Hifi refuses to except that he is out to lunch
Hifi posts the same thing over and over again knowing it is bogus
Hifi and his 2 pals are here to make current happy buyers angry
Potential buyers will know without a doubt to not listen to Hifi and company, and they could care less...it is the current happy owners that have to stick up for the rediculous claims being made.

Maybe if you read the explatation real slow or have a friend read it to you real slow, the understanding part my find its way.

The absolute best advice given....call up or email the reviewer that you quote/misquote 10 times a week and let him explain in his own proffession terma.....why what you are posting is nothing close to reality of what he wanted to say. Taking his words out of context and applying some twisted adgenda to it is wearing very thin.

I vote to ban such an instigator that after reviewing this entire thread we can see the ovious motive...no new information...false/proven false facts being regurgitated for no reason except to anger....I will not put myself through anymore rediculous posts from Hifi...ignore may save me from throwing up.

Give the home theatre mag a call allready...if the source calls you a nut....won't matter you will knowingly spew the same ole junk ...which means you need to be banned AGAIN.

I vote to close this thread. It is a waste of the first page in this forum.

While you advocate banning people, most forums have rules against making 3rd party references to other posters as it's inflammatory and rude. State your point and let it go and stop trolling other posters:)

Hi,

Guys, can't we all be civilised to each other? Unlike many others here, my tech knowledge is quite low to say the least so some of the arguments & topics between various parties are way beyond me but lets just all act respectfully and with some decorum. Whoever is right, take comfort in the fact that you have tried to explain the best you can and just let it go - you can do no more, you are secure in your knowledge and the facts do not change just because a few disagree!

I appreciate it must be quite frustrating when very knowledgeable people disagree or have fundamental differences but I would like to sincerely request if possible, that we simply keep this thread related to to subject matter - news and developments on next years Panasonic G12/NEO-PDP models - hopefully that might diffuse tensions and I might actually learn something! Does anyone know if Panasonic will be bringing out an NEO-PDP models in a 46" screen?

Regards,

Bazzy!

Amen...
It's sad to see what this thread has become from what was an exciting premise.
Information would be great, as bickering and nit-picking has become tiresome.
Read the thread title and respond accordingly if you can, otherwise please spare us the personal agendas.
Thank you

no sh*t. I don't post much, because I don't have much to add, but I read a ton of posts, I'm a pharmacist and not a "tech" guy or anything so I can't really tell who's full of BS and who's not, but I am looking to buy a plasma, and have decided to wait for CES and see what comes.

I don't want this thread closed because I'm dying for any info on any of the neopdps (Panny, Pioneer, Hitachi). If it does have to be closed, we need another one for any news.

Next year will be exciting PDPs, so some of y'all need to get over yourselves and just be excited for all the new developments.

amen!

I paid double the amount for a Pioneer Kuro and I can't show a night and day difference in most real world settings compared to a Panasonic PZ800U. :p

Pioneer 50" Kuro $4,499.99

Panasonic 58" PZ800U $2,799.99

Black levels not a night and day difference.

LMFAO!!!

false info.

Pioneer 50" 5020 is $2500 or less!

hey you where only off by 2 grand!

Pioneer 50" Kuro $4,499.99

Panasonic 58" PZ800U $2,799.99

Black levels not a night and day difference.

LMFAO!!!

Hi,

Guys, can't we all be civilised to each other? Unlike many others here, my tech knowledge is quite low to say the least so some of the arguments & topics between various parties are way beyond me but lets just all act respectfully and with some decorum. Whoever is right, take comfort in the fact that you have tried to explain the best you can and just let it go - you can do no more, you are secure in your knowledge and the facts do not change just because a few disagree!

I appreciate it must be quite frustrating when very knowledgeable people disagree or have fundamental differences but I would like to sincerely request if possible, that we simply keep this thread related to to subject matter - news and developments on next years Panasonic G12/NEO-PDP models - hopefully that might diffuse tensions and I might actually learn something! Does anyone know if Panasonic will be bringing out an NEO-PDP models in a 46" screen?

Regards,
Bazzy!
I agree.
But its unfortunate when the main source of information is spun by the defacto spokesman for Pioneer. The darker side is someone trusted by Panasonic with proprietary information is leaking it to "D-Nice".

Shockingly he then uses this unreleased Panasonic sales information against them apparently to help falling Pioneer sales. This indicates a sign of desperation and makes one wonder if the partnership between the two companies is already on the rocks.

I wish the exaggerated performance claims would stop as the spin here is out of control. My sole goal is to buy the best display which MUST last for several years, as we live in a new economic world. Since Pioneer is not releasing new technology until December 2009 (according to D-Nice), they are "out of the picture". Panasonic is taking the high road and showing great leadership by introducing new products in a timely manner.
The best 2009 new technology battle will be between the Panasonic NeoPDPs and Samsung LED displays. I expect them both to be winners. :)

let's wait for CES 2009 before we all jump to conclusions. maybe Panasonic will improve there lousy color accuracy for there 2009 entry level plasma TV's

and did D-Nice really say that the 10G will not be out until Dec. 2009?
(i would want his latest updated estimate when they will be out)

I agree.
But its unfortunate when the main source of information is spun by the defacto spokesman for Pioneer. The darker side is someone trusted by Panasonic with proprietary information is leaking it to "D-Nice".

Shockingly he then uses this unreleased Panasonic sales information against them apparently to help falling Pioneer sales. This indicates a sign of desperation and makes one wonder if the partnership between the two companies is already on the rocks.

I wish the exaggerated performance claims would stop as the spin here is out of control. My sole goal is to buy the best display which MUST last for several years, as we live in a new economic world. Since Pioneer is not releasing new technology until December 2009 (according to D-Nice), they are "out of the picture". Panasonic is taking the high road and showing great leadership by introducing new products in a timely manner.
The best 2009 new technology battle will be between the Panasonic NeoPDPs and Samsung LED displays. I expect them both to be winners. :)

I agree.
But its unfortunate when the main source of information is spun by the defacto spokesman for Pioneer. The darker side is someone trusted by Panasonic with proprietary information is leaking it to "D-Nice".

Shockingly he then uses this unreleased Panasonic sales information against them apparently to help falling Pioneer sales. This indicates a sign of desperation and makes one wonder if the partnership between the two companies is already on the rocks.

I wish the exaggerated performance claims would stop as the spin here is out of control. My sole goal is to buy the best display which MUST last for several years, as we live in a new economic world. Since Pioneer is not releasing new technology until December 2009 (according to D-Nice), they are "out of the picture". Panasonic is taking the high road and showing great leadership by introducing new products in a timely manner.
The best 2009 new technology battle will be between the Panasonic NeoPDPs and Samsung LED displays. I expect them both to be winners. :)

you'd be wrong. B- for creative writing though

I agree.
But its unfortunate when the main source of information is spun by the defacto spokesman for Pioneer. The darker side is someone trusted by Panasonic with proprietary information is leaking it to "D-Nice".

Shockingly he then uses this unreleased Panasonic sales information against them apparently to help falling Pioneer sales. This indicates a sign of desperation and makes one wonder if the partnership between the two companies is already on the rocks.

I wish the exaggerated performance claims would stop as the spin here is out of control. My sole goal is to buy the best display which MUST last for several years, as we live in a new economic world. Since Pioneer is not releasing new technology until December 2009 (according to D-Nice), they are "out of the picture". Panasonic is taking the high road and showing great leadership by introducing new products in a timely manner.
The best 2009 new technology battle will be between the Panasonic NeoPDPs and Samsung LED displays. I expect them both to be winners. :)


Hi HifiFun,

Thank you for your comments - as for the content, I respect that is your view and opinion but I have no issues with anyone here whatsoever - may I respectfully suggest that regarding both yours and D-Nice's very intricate level of knowledge on these subject matters, that a different approach may actually be more beneficial and you may find that you actually agree on more things than you disagree on? It would be an fantastic platform upon which to build on and future differences of opinion will be tackled and approached in a different light possibly? You may even become the best of friends!

My take is simple - everyone here (apart from me!) is quite knowledgeable about the deeper technical aspects of things yet at this moment in time, for the vast majority, everything (unless officially confirmed) is pure speculation about what may or may not transpire in the future. Add to that, this is, at the end of the day, just TV's we are talking about, no matter whether they are Pioneer, Panasonic or B&O - it's just a TV which will have a limited life-span before we all rave about the next one coming. Lets all use our higher intelligence and see it as that and not get caught in the trap of making things personal or get into slandering others - I do not care if next years TV was better than anything out of a science fiction movie - there is no way anyone here should (and nor do I genuinely believe anyone here would) compromise theirs or anyone else's character, dignity or honour just for a piece of tech - a human life - yes but a TV? No! There are far greater causes just outside all our windows that we could expend such furtive energy over - besides, letting it go may bring about a peace that may allow other avenues of thought and opinion to prosper! My sincere thanks to all,

Bazzy!

let's wait for CES 2009 before we all jump to conclusions. maybe Panasonic will improve there lousy color accuracy for there 2009 entry level plasma TV's

and did D-Nice really say that the 10G will not be out until Dec. 2009?
(i would want his latest updated estimate when they will be out)

Supposedly, the 10G Kuros will be formally introduced in Rome Italy, May 2009 (as has been the case with all Kuros) and are due around Sept. 2009(probably a bit earlier as that has always been the case with Kuros)....and of course we will see a sneek peek of these panels at ces in jan.


Now my question is; will all 10G Kuros be 0.0 fl ECC panels, or will this tech be reserved for the 2009 Elites/Signatures:confused:

You have one more time to post false information with my name attached to it and I WILL report you to the Mods.

I agree.
But its unfortunate when the main source of information is spun by the defacto spokesman for Pioneer. The darker side is someone trusted by Panasonic with proprietary information is leaking it to "D-Nice".

Shockingly he then uses this unreleased Panasonic sales information against them apparently to help falling Pioneer sales. This indicates a sign of desperation and makes one wonder if the partnership between the two companies is already on the rocks.

I wish the exaggerated performance claims would stop as the spin here is out of control. My sole goal is to buy the best display which MUST last for several years, as we live in a new economic world. Since Pioneer is not releasing new technology until December 2009 (according to D-Nice), they are "out of the picture". Panasonic is taking the high road and showing great leadership by introducing new products in a timely manner.
The best 2009 new technology battle will be between the Panasonic NeoPDPs and Samsung LED displays. I expect them both to be winners. :)

and did D-Nice really say that the 10G will not be out until Dec. 2009? No I did not.

No I did not.


D-Nice, are the datelines in my previous post close to being correct?


and..... :D*sheepish grin*:D....will the ECC Kuro products be limited to the most expensive 10G Kuros only, as is the case with the Neo PDPs (high end only):confused:

Any details on what sizes the 10g Pios will be made in?

are the datelines in my previous post close to being correct?10G Pioneer are tentavly scheduled for the OCt-Nov timeframe with the latter being for the Elites.


and..... :D*sheepish grin*:D....will the ECC Kuro products be limited to the most expensive 10G Kuros only, as is the case with the Neo PDPs (high end only):confused:ECC may not come in 2009 based on the cost of the technology. The blame can be placed solely on the global economy.

If ECC is put on hold, it will be replaced with an even lower minimum luminance level PDP module (compared to the 9Gs)....which will NOT be shared or seen in Panasonic 2009 displays.

Any details on what sizes the 10g Pios will be made in?10G Pioneers will also include LCDs so sizes will range for small to large :)

10G Pioneers will also include LCDs so sizes will range for small to large :)

Can you divulge any info on the plasma sizes? 42" or 46" maybe :D

Can you divulge any info on the plasma sizes? 42" or 46" maybe :DYou will get that information from Pioneer at a later date.

10G Pioneer are tentavly scheduled for the OCt-Nov timeframe with the latter being for the Elites.


ECC may not come in 2009 based on the cost of the technology. The blame can be placed solely on the global economy.

If ECC is put on hold, it will be replaced with an even lower minimum luminance level PDP module (compared to the 9Gs)....which will NOT be shared or seen in Panasonic 2009 displays.

So, to be clear:

Pioneer 10G Kuros will be introduced in May, but will not arrive until Oct at earliest (non Elites)

ECC is the 0.0 fl Pios and might be delayed to 2010-ish

non-ECC 10G Kuros will arrive in 2009 and will have black performance better (:eek:) than, say an Elite 111FD but not quite zero idle luminance, yes?

After the glass (one or two layers?) the panel is all Pioneer tech


Am I close:)

One more general question (for now):

Dolby is making big noise about the performance of their HDR LCD displays


In your opinion, would an ECC Pioneer Plasma be, for all intents and purposes, a High Dynamic Range display, ala dolbyvision:confused:

Put another way, could a dolbyvision LCD panel correctly display an image that would show errors on an ECC because of lack of performance on the Pioneer Panel:confused:

You will get that information from Pioneer at a later date.

Hi,

Pioneer UK have informed me that there is talk of a possible 42" model next year but they made it clear that nothing official has been told even to them. As for a 46" plasma, they did not elucidate at all. They have launched the KRL-46V LCD here so whether they will ever offer a 46" Plasma is anybody's guess! I must admit, I would be as happy as a lark if they did offer a 46" Plasma as I simply cannot fit a 50" Kuro in my enclosure and as good as the Pioneer LCD's may be, I just personally prefer the picture a plasma gives over LCD. This is why I am so interested in next years Panasonic NEO-PDP models and am hoping they come out in a 46" model (and not with the usual ridiculously wide bezels Panasonic seems to love so much!) in the hope that if there is no way I can have a Kuro Plasma, then I at least can have the next best thing rather than be forced over to the LCD side of things.

Am I thinking along the right lines guys? Waiting for or assuming that next years NEO-PDP Panasonic plasma may be a better choice than a LCD, even if it is a Pioneer LCD? Dealers here in the UK say that the SD performance is outstanding but the black levels are more in-line with the G8 plasmas and nowhere near the G9's. That kind of makes the Pioneer LCD's far better than any other out there but for the money, not up to the G9 Plasma by a long shot!

I have looked at dozens of LCD's and have not seen one that impresses me with SD stuff and even on Plasma's, I found the SD on various makes including Panasonic quite lacking when compared to a Kuro Plasma. I am no expert, but just went with what I saw at the time!

Bazzy!

Put another way, could a dolbyvision LCD panel correctly display an image that would show errors on an ECC because of lack of performance on the Pioneer Panel:confused:

Zero idle luminance doesn't equal HDR display. HDR display requires high number of gradation steps and because of human eye limitations, gradation range has to spread on large luminance range. PDP has about 100 cd/m2 luminance, Dolbyvision can easily have 50+ times more brightness and therefore much larger amount of perceivable luminance levels.

http://i31.tinypic.com/nf1q41.png

10G Pioneer are tentavly scheduled...If ECC is put on hold, it will be replaced with an even lower minimum luminance level PDP module (compared to the 9Gs)....which will NOT be shared or seen in Panasonic 2009 displays.

So at minimum some improved black levels and still 5 lumens right????

Sorry to all, I know this is a Panny thread and I'm interested in those as well but no new news yet.

I would appreciate it if the discussion would get back to Panasonic displays and let the Pioneer discussion move to a Pioneer thread.

After reading about Pioneer slumping sales, about how they dropped the ball, about how they are conning the buyers, about how they fool the reviewers, about well you can go through all of hifis rants about how sucky kuros really are....I have some information to share.

From Nov01 to Nov30 guess how many people posted on the elite thread and said yippee I bought a kuro (elite i might add...many more bought 6020s and 5020s)

40 yes FORTY, Hifi would you call 40 new owners in 30 days a bad month. Go search every thread in this site and see who is doing "better"

This is 40 that posted, not sure how many bought and just read the threads. So please stop allready with your bashing. Go count the 3 new owners in XBR8 land for november, or the 7 new A950 owners in Sammy land. Actually more than 7 Sammy owners were on set number 2 in the month of november as people returned there sets for new ones, and 1 returned it for a KURO elite. 40 7000.00 sets speaks for itself. Flagships are meant to be watched, not just wished for. (Sony thread is adamant that XBR8s are just flagship technology, that they don't really want to sell....LOL)

So HIFI bash with opinions, but for you to say that Nov was a bad month for sales........NOT. December new owners is looking like the same amount so far.

Back to the new technology.

After reading about Pioneer slumping sales, about how they dropped the ball, about how they are conning the buyers, about how they fool the reviewers, about well you can go through all of hifis rants about how sucky kuros really are....I have some information to share.

From Nov01 to Nov30 guess how many people posted on the elite thread and said yippee I bought a kuro (elite i might add...many more bought 6020s and 5020s)

40 yes FORTY, Hifi would you call 40 new owners in 30 days a bad month. Go search every thread in this site and see who is doing "better"

This is 40 that posted, not sure how many bought and just read the threads. So please stop allready with your bashing. Go count the 3 new owners in XBR8 land for november, or the 7 new A950 owners in Sammy land. 40 7000.00 sets speaks for itself. Flagships are meant to be watched, not just wished for. (Sony thread is adamant that XBR8s are just flagship technology, that they don't really want to sell....LOL)

So HIFI bash with opinions, but for you to say that Nov was a bad month for sales........NOT. December new owners is looking like the same amount so far.

Back to the new technology.

Now *THATS* a burn:eek:

time to run away from the inevitable fire and brimstone that will arrive in this thread:(

10G Pioneer are tentavly scheduled for the OCt-Nov timeframe with the latter being for the Elites.


ECC may not come in 2009 based on the cost of the technology. The blame can be placed solely on the global economy.

If ECC is put on hold, it will be replaced with an even lower minimum luminance level PDP module (compared to the 9Gs)....which will NOT be shared or seen in Panasonic 2009 displays.

you'd think any improvement over the 9g black levels would actually be zero idle luminance. ive read in some reviews of the 9g's having a zero idle luminance. from what ive seen for my self its not the case. what exactly is the idle luminance of the 9g pio?

I agree with Mike.

Larry

false info.

Pioneer 50" 5020 is $2500 or less!

hey you where only off by 2 grand!

Wrong, I'm talking about the Pioneer Kuro Pro-111.

Who cares about the 5020, it's not even in the same league as the Panasonic PZ800U series when it comes to accurate colors. Blacks while a shade darker is not very noticeable in most scenes. Even Cnet agreed most would have a hard time finding differences in the black levels.

To quote Cnet's review about the 50" PZ800U black levels compared to the Pioneer.

"It matched the PZ85U's black levels to our eye, and while it still wasn't quite as dark as the Pioneer Kuro, the difference was hard to discern even in side-by-side comparisons of the darkest scenes."

Wrong, I'm talking about the Pioneer Kuro Pro-111.

Who cares about the 5020, it's not even in the same league as the Panasonic PZ800U series when it comes to accurate colors. Blacks while a shade darker is not very noticeable in most scenes. Even Cnet agreed most would have a hard time finding differences in the black levels.

:p I wouldn't trade a 5020 for an 800U even if someone gave me $1000 along with it. This coming from one of the 5020/6020s harshest critics. Good measurements doesn't always = good picture. Case and point, the display shootout at value electronics. Everyone expected the 800U to come second to the Kuros.. that's not what happened. People complained of a hazy dim dull picture, something that doesn't come up in measurements ;)

Wow at thinking the 800 is superior to the 5020 and is in the "same league as the elite". Just wow.

i would appreciate it if the discussion would get back to panasonic displays and let the pioneer discussion move to a pioneer thread.

+1

that's why this thread is here... we know that Panny for 08 isn't anything to write home about....

we all want to know if the 09 Panny will be worth the wait versus getting a non elite Kuro right now.

Wow at thinking the 800 is superior to the 5020 and is in the "same league as the elite". Just wow.

Problem is, if it is as good as a non elite kuro...so will the price. If the new panny is a kuro elite killer...which I doubt, but it may hold its own against a 6020...the price is not going to be like the panny prices of this year....so you buy now for a good price, or you pay what the going rate is next year, but you won't get a free ride eitherway with pricing.

To quote Cnet's review about the 50" PZ800U black levels compared to the Pioneer.

"It matched the PZ85U's black levels to our eye, and while it still wasn't quite as dark as the Pioneer Kuro, the difference was hard to discern even in side-by-side comparisons of the darkest scenes."

To be fair, this was comparing the 800u to a 8G kuro, not a 9G kuro.

What's your guess on price range of Panosonic's Neo PDP next year?

50" ~$4000 ?
65" ~$8000 ?

what's your guess on price range of panosonic's neo pdp next year?

50" ~$4000 ?
65" ~$8000 ?

thats downright laughable. But at the same time i wouldnt be surprised if it were true. Thats above current pioneer elite prices right now. Especially the 65". Yet these sets dont seem to resemble the performance of the elites atleast from what little weve heard. If im gonna drop that many bones on a new set, its going to be a pio thats for sure.

I wouldn't trade a 5020 for an 800U even if someone gave me $1000 along with it. [...] People complained of a hazy dim dull picture

Wow at thinking the 800 is superior to the 5020 and is in the "same league as the elite". Just wow.

we know that Panny for 08 isn't anything to write home about
Jeez... is the picture quality of the 2008-model Panasonic plasmas really that bad? :(

Jeez... is the picture quality of the 2008-model Panasonic plasmas really that bad? :(

Hi,

No! The PQ on the 2008 Panny's are second only to the Pio's BUT there is quite a distance between them! The Pio's do everything well pretty much and theres really nothing out there that can touch them. I really could live with the 2008 Panny's - on HD they are very good indeed for the money and have very respectable black levels but for me, where they fall apart is on SD material - they just are not good enough by a long shot and whereas on the Pioneer, SD material can look pretty darn good as long as the source is not totally poor.

Maybe next years Panny's might improve things on the SD front but somehow I doubt it - manufacturers (apart from Pioneer) seem to have forgotten that the vast majority of viewing is still SD and will be until HD becomes the de-facto standard!

Bazzy!

thats downright laughable. But at the same time i wouldnt be surprised if it were true. Thats above current pioneer elite prices right now. Especially the 65". Yet these sets dont seem to resemble the performance of the elites atleast from what little weve heard. If im gonna drop that many bones on a new set, its going to be a pio thats for sure.

Expect the NeoPDP to be slightly more than the TH-65VX100 and TH-50VX100 (http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/11/27/panasonic-th-65vx100-and-th-50vx100-plasmas-head-to-europe/).

Chris

Now that is some SERIOUS coin then. :eek:

Expect the NeoPDP to be slightly more than the TH-65VX100 and TH-50VX100 (http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/11/27/panasonic-th-65vx100-and-th-50vx100-plasmas-head-to-europe/).

Chris

Lets hope that's not the case. :eek:

Expect the NeoPDP to be slightly more than the TH-65VX100 and TH-50VX100 (http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/11/27/panasonic-th-65vx100-and-th-50vx100-plasmas-head-to-europe/).

Chris

Panasonic is in finishing stages of its state-of-the-art multi billion dollar plant with production capacity of 1 million 42" NEO-PDPs/month. I don't think that ultra high end or even high end market is that large. :p

Sometimes you gotta believe your own common sense....without real proof. Those prices are unrealistically high.

right...

looks like it will be 2010 before I get my Neo PDP.
(because by then it will be offered in there entry level TV's)

What's your guess on price range of Panosonic's Neo PDP next year?

50" ~$4000 ?
65" ~$8000 ?

The article said 12 grand+ for the 65. I wonder how many 70" LCD's Sony sold at 33 grand+ ? AND they didn't have competition at that size.

Jeez... is the picture quality of the 2008-model Panasonic plasmas really that bad? :(

After owning one yes, and the person I sold it to agrees ;) Everytime we watch a concert or film he's floored by the Kuro. He said I was crazy for buying one at first (and getting rid of the panny) after seeing one he changed his tune.

What's your guess on price range of Panosonic's Neo PDP next year?

50" ~$4000 ?
65" ~$8000 ?

If Panasonic does that they're truly morons. A 50" PDP next year, high end or not, should not retail for more than $3000.

In case anyone hadn't notice the world economy is in a lot of trouble, I wouldn't be surprised if they axed the whole thing and put it off until 2011 or only implemented bits and parts of the new technology. D-Nice already said they aren't going to be exactly what we hoped for.

What's your guess on price range of Panosonic's Neo PDP next year?

50" ~$4000 ?
65" ~$8000 ?

I'd guess that the models with tuners will be at PZ850 MSRP minus 10%.
I'd guess that the models without tuners (1 inch thick) will be at VX100 MSRP.

Expect the NeoPDP to be slightly more than the TH-65VX100 and TH-50VX100 (http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/11/27/panasonic-th-65vx100-and-th-50vx100-plasmas-head-to-europe/).

Chris
Is that what you were told by Pana?
Thanks.

So with CES just a few weeks away, any previews or news yet from Panasonic?

why would panny price them so high, i could get a 60 inch elite for the price of their 50 inch neo pdp, and d-nice already stated that the pannys wont beat out this years pios, not to mention if they improve any next year

also panny is targeting a market that isnt willing to pny up the money to get a pio, that is their business model. for them to change is about as dumb as a company can get, especially in the current economy

why would panny price them so high, i could get a 60 inch elite for the price of their 50 inch neo pdp, and d-nice already stated that the pannys wont beat out this years pios, not to mention if they improve any next year

also panny is targeting a market that isnt willing to pny up the money to get a pio, that is their business model. for them to change is about as dumb as a company can get, especially in the current economy

Because they will position it as being better than the Kuro and companies expect to get returns from their flagship products, not immediately send them to the discount bin

why would panny price them so high, i could get a 60 inch elite for the price of their 50 inch neo pdp, and d-nice already stated that the pannys wont beat out this years pios, not to mention if they improve any next year

also panny is targeting a market that isnt willing to pny up the money to get a pio, that is their business model. for them to change is about as dumb as a company can get, especially in the current economyHe didn't say they wouldn't be better--he just said the 9G kuros would have better black levels. The neopdps "could" (take that with a grain of salt) be better in other categories, even though I don't know how much better they can get in other categories.


Edit- They will have 1080 lines of motion resolution, unlike the 9Gs, which have 900.

I heard Pioneer is closing all its plasma plants and will buy panels from Panasonic, so, doesn't it means that both brands will be very close in quality? Won't the difference be reduced to menus and advanced options


Edit- They will have 1080 lines of motion resolution, unlike the 9Gs, which have 900.

At what speed? To me, more important than increasing the resolution at a certain speed (let's say 8 seconds for a full frame to move in the screen) is to keep it at faster speeds. The G11 reduce the resolution to 700 lines when the object takes about 2 seconds to pass through the screen. It isn't rare to see faster motion.

Pioneer isn't closing it's plasma plants. They are going to be buying the glass for their panels from Panasonic instead of making their own. The glass will be made to Pioneer's specs and all the components/electronics in the set will be Pioneer's exclusively.

Pioneer isn't closing it's plasma plants. They are going to be buying the glass for their panels from Panasonic instead of making their own. The glass will be made to Pioneer's specs and all the components/electronics in the set will be Pioneer's exclusively.

Also, Pioneer's own employees (over 300 from Pioneer's glass plant) are being transferred to this all-new Panny glass plant to insure quality & expertise in the process.

Ok, good to know.

Hi All,

If Panasonic price NEO-PDP plasmas above Pioneer's prices, even without a recession looming, it surely would not make sense - It seems from what D-Nice has intimated that although they may be very good, they will not be better than the current G9's and therefore the impending G10's. Panasonic targets to a mass market and that is their business model - it would be incredibly risky to change it with all the billions of investments they have made recently.

If Panasonic price NEO-PDP's to significantly detract sales from Pioneer's market, it would make sense as they would target mainstream buyers and lure others away from Pioneer whose sales figures do not really pose a threat to them at the best of times. It may be that if they price aggressively enough, they may capture sales from the LCD market which is far more attractive for them. Seeing as the 'standard' PX/PX9xx series will not be NEO-PDP, Panasonic will be offering two distinct sets of products and it will indeed be interesting to see how they price and target markets. Panasonic are the global driving force behind the majority of plasma sales around the world and they have worked very hard for that advantage - I would be very surprised to see them throw that away by becoming uncompetitive - I hope they do not do that!

Bazzy!

I heard Pioneer is closing all its plasma plants and will buy panels from Panasonic, so, doesn't it means that both brands will be very close in quality? Won't the difference be reduced to menus and advanced options



At what speed? To me, more important than increasing the resolution at a certain speed (let's say 8 seconds for a full frame to move in the screen) is to keep it at faster speeds. The G11 reduce the resolution to 700 lines when the object takes about 2 seconds to pass through the screen. It isn't rare to see faster motion.The panel is NOT the only aspect of the display. The driving algorithm helps immensely to get deep blacks, the processing ensures numerous things, and I'm (almost) willing to bet that the filter on the panels will be different next year.

Also, Pioneer's own employees (over 300 from Pioneer's glass plant) are being transferred to this all-new Panny glass plant to insure quality & expertise in the process.

True.

They are now Panasonic employees so they do what Panasonic wants them to do ;)

- Rich

Also, Pioneer's own employees (over 300 from Pioneer's glass plant) are being transferred to this all-new Panny glass plant to insure quality & expertise in the process.
Sounds like, um, "looks" like the best of both worlds!!! :cool:

240Hz Ultra thin LED Backlight LCD is coming! Let's see the price of 12G Neo PDP

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15396690

Who cares about LCD. Besides this is a '09-model Panny plasma thread. :)

Anyway, here is what I want and expect to be announced at CES:

42" 1080p base model. (There will be no 720p models.)

Black level: 0.004fL

MSRP: $1,299.00
Release Date: March 2009

I don't think pricing will be given at CES. From my recollection press releases with pricing used to come out at CES from some manufacturers but the last year or two prices have been omitted.

When does CES start exactly? Does Panasonic usually announce their new stuff on the first day?

Price won't be given out until Q2 released!

I don't think pricing will be given at CES. From my recollection press releases with pricing used to come out at CES from some manufacturers but the last year or two prices have been omitted.

Im hoping to get a 42 (or 46 if lucky) inch neo-pdp plasma for ~$2000 CAD dollars come september 2009. Not sure of my chances of that though. Come CES I guess I will find out a little more. Only a couple more weeks.

Im hoping to get a 42 (or 46 if lucky) inch neo-pdp plasma for ~$2000 CAD dollars come september 2009. Not sure of my chances of that though. Come CES I guess I will find out a little more. Only a couple more weeks.

Hi,

I too was hoping for a 42"/46" NEO-PDP but it seems the smallest size will be 50". It looks like either going with the new standard Panny range in 2009 for 46" screens if they are a leap forward in performance over the current ones, going to a bigger screen or moving to the LCD side where 46" screens are more readily available.

I feel all plasma manufacturers (apart from Panasonic) have dropped the ball by not fully supporting sizes and decent choice of products between 42" & 50" and the LCD market has stormed right in and virtually taken over this sector.

Bazzy!

When does CES start exactly? Does Panasonic usually announce their new stuff on the first day?

Looks like CES is Jan 8th-11th.

Hi,

I too was hoping for a 42"/46" NEO-PDP but it seems the smallest size will be 50". It looks like either going with the new standard Panny range in 2009 for 46" screens if they are a leap forward in performance over the current ones, going to a bigger screen or moving to the LCD side where 46" screens are more readily available.

I feel all plasma manufacturers (apart from Panasonic) have dropped the ball by not fully supporting sizes and decent choice of products between 42" & 50" and the LCD market has stormed right in and virtually taken over this sector.

Bazzy!


I read that 42" Neo's will be available. Apparently the started to attempt to manufacture the 42" Neo as that size would be the hardest to manufacture and the larger sizes would be easier. We should know shortly.

On the other hand, everyone I know that's bought a 42" (after I told them they should go 50") has wished they went 50". They based their 42" size decision relative to the SD television size they had before, not wanting to believe you can sit much much closer to an HD picture than you ever can to an SD picture.

The panel is NOT the only aspect of the display. The driving algorithm helps immensely to get deep blacks, the processing ensures numerous things.

True, but the driving algorithm is dependable on the display subfields' mechanism. Panasonic uses 8 subfields and the Kuro uses 14 (i believe), trying the same dithering algorithm the Kuro uses with the Pansonic is useless, because the halftoning method of the kuro takes advantage of the 14 subfield drive mechanism.

So IF both TVs use the same panel, with the same amount of subfields, made equal for both of them, the chance of both using the same algorithm for the subfield drive mechanism is bigger. But i agree with you that one thing does not implicate the other.

True, but the driving algorithm is dependable on the display subfields' mechanism. Panasonic uses 8 subfields and the Kuro uses 14 (i believe), trying the same dithering algorithm the Kuro uses with the Pansonic is useless, because the halftoning method of the kuro takes advantage of the 14 subfield drive mechanism.

So IF both TVs use the same panel, with the same amount of subfields, made equal for both of them, the chance of both using the same algorithm for the subfield drive mechanism is bigger. But i agree with you that one thing does not implicate the other.Subfields are derived from driver software and hardware. It has absolutely nothing to do with the substrate.

Subfields are derived from driver software and hardware. It has absolutely nothing to do with the substrate.

Wait a second, lets try to organize all this. The first thing i asked was about the panel, if both would use the same panel. So by Panel i assume substrate + hardware. I my be wrong about this, but i believe the substrate can't be considered the panel per se.

But anyway, let me check with you since we got to the substrate. So you can actually get any substrate and use any driver hardware on it, without having to check the substrate quality/specs before?

Wait a second, lets try to organize all this. The first thing i asked was about the panel, if both would use the same panel. So by Panel i assume substrate + hardware. I my be wrong about this, but i believe the substrate can't be considered the panel per se.You are correct but let's define the term "panel" for those who do not understand. The true definition of "panel" would be "PDP module"... which is the driver, glass substrate, filter, AR coating, etc.


So you can actually get any substrate and use any driver hardware on it, without having to check the substrate quality/specs before?I never said or implied this.

You are correct but let's define the term "panel" for those who do not understand. The true definition of "panel" would be "PDP module"... which is the driver, glass substrate, filter, AR coating, etc.


I never said or implied this.

Ok thanks! So, i believe i am on the right page...

Don't know why another thread was started.
Looking forward too the 9th!
http://www.panasonic.com/ces2009/

In a few more months we will be able to buy an affordable, entry-level Panny plasma capable of 8G Kuro-level comparable blacks. I don't know about you guys, but that's good enough for me. :D

I can't wait until Panasonic unveils the line-up this Thursday.

In a few more months we will be able to buy an affordable, entry-level Panny plasma capable of 8G Kuro-level comparable blacks. I don't know about you guys, but that's good enough for me. :D

I can't wait until Panasonic unveils the line-up this Thursday.

If they can nail Pioneer IR resistance as well and get a decent price on their 1080p entry level model, they will have a big winner on their hands. (more calibration options would be nice as well)

For some reason though, I don't think it will be quite that good just yet.

In a few more months we will be able to buy an affordable, entry-level Panny plasma capable of 8G Kuro-level comparable blacks. I don't know about you guys, but that's good enough for me. :D

I can't wait until Panasonic unveils the line-up this Thursday.

How do you know this?

True.

They are now Panasonic employees so they do what Panasonic wants them to do ;)

- Rich
Pioneer's Progress with Improving Profitability in its Home Electronics Business
-- Redeploy approximately 200 of product design engineers in the display and audio/video products businesses to growth fields
-- Expect to redeploy around 60% of these engineers during fiscal 2009, with the rest to follow in fiscal 2010

In other words kiss Pioneer home audio and video products goodbye. US companies have done this in the past as they reduce or exit the business. Phillips quit manufacturing display products in North America: now they license their name to tier-three panel manufactures.

http://pioneer.jp/corp/ir/library/announcement/fy2009/pdf/slide_2q09e.pdf

How do you know this?


Well....

Inch for inch Pioneer PDPs are more expensive than the equivalent panny pdp....so that takes care of the "cheap" part of the equasion

D nice, who is as good a source as you are going to get on avsforum, has said the Panny neopdps will have black levels as good as the current 9G Kuros.....so that takes part of the "8G Kuro-level comparable blacks" part of the quote:)

Well....

Inch for inch Pioneer PDPs are more expensive than the equivalent panny pdp....so that takes care of the "cheap" part of the equasion

D nice, who is as good a source as you are going to get on avsforum, has said the Panny neopdps will have black levels as good as the current 9G Kuros.....so that takes part of the "8G Kuro-level comparable blacks" part of the quote:)

Ok, but I was also interested in the 'affordable, entry-level Panny plasma capable of ...' part of your post. How do you know they will be affordable and entry-level?

D nice, who is as good a source as you are going to get on avsforum, has said the Panny neopdps will have black levels as good as the current 9G Kuros.....so that takes part of the "8G Kuro-level comparable blacks" part of the quote:)Ummm, I don't recall saying these exact words :)

Pioneer isn't closing it's plasma plants. They are going to be buying the glass for their panels from Panasonic instead of making their own. The glass will be made to Pioneer's specs and all the components/electronics in the set will be Pioneer's exclusively.
The Pioneer spin at AVS is not what Pioneer itself reports:

Pioneer Progress with Restructuring the Display Business
DPC Yamanashi Plant: Ended production in August 2008
PPD Kagoshima Plant: Scheduled to end production in November 2008
DPC Shizuoka Plant: Scheduled to end production in February 2009
Successively terminate in-house PDP production by March 2009
Pioneer completed the launch of LCD TVs in Europe in August 2008, and
will continue developing proprietary technologies for LCD TVs
Successively roll out Sharp-supplied LCD TVs starting in Europe in August 2008
Negotiations under way in each region with closure planned for the end of
March 2009
<Additional measures>
Closure of U.S. and U.K. PDP production facilities
A special early retirement program has been adopted by DPC Yamanashi Plant, resulting in the retirement of 205 employees as of September 30, 2008
Redeploy PDP production personnel mainly to growth businesses and consider offering an incentive-based early retirement program to certain personnel
DPC Yamanashi Plant: Negotiations under way on the sale of land and buildings
PPD Kagoshima Plant: Reached basic agreement on transfer of plant to
Field Emission Technologies Inc.
DPC Shizuoka Plant: Plans call for converting the plant into a Home
Electronics product manufacturing and aftersales services
center, in conjunction with downsizing operations
Close all PDP plants except Pioneer Display Products Corporation’s Shizuoka Plant after PDP production ends; consider ways to utilize these facilities

Now if anyone wants to argue then do it with Pioneer. Notice that Pioneer uses the clear and simple term "panels" not all the BS terms spewed here.
Their using Sharp LCD panels? :(
Otherwise accept reality. Please? :)

http://pioneer.jp/corp/ir/library/announcement/fy2009/pdf/slide_2q09e.pdf

How do you know this?
It's only logical to me.

I am not talking about the Neo PDPs.

I am talking about Panasonic's '09 'budget' line-up only.

I hope that Panasonic re-vamps their entire menu scheme and adds way more control over their panels. Something similar to the 8G Kuro's with a much more updated look in the menus.

I hope that Panasonic re-vamps their entire menu scheme and adds way more control over their panels. Something similar to the 8G Kuro's with a much more updated look in the menus.

I think we can all agree on that and we will have a hint of what they are doing in a few days.

This waiting is worse then walking the floor at the maternity ward.

I just wish they didn't discontinue the 50" 800U model. I can only handle a 50" screen so if the 2009 models do not interest me I need to buy the 50" 850U model. If they discontinue that I hope they have a 50" screen for < $3,000 that is great when the 2009 models come out.

D-Nice it's only a few more days, can you give us anymore information?

Pleeeeeeese.

Something easy, like what can we expect for <$3,000 in a 50" screen that will be available in the next few months.

if it is only a few days.... why not wait?

by then you will have the whole picture instead of rumors.

I think we can all agree on that and we will have a hint of what they are doing in a few days.

This waiting is worse then walking the floor at the maternity ward.

I just wish they didn't discontinue the 50" 800U model. I can only handle a 50" screen so if the 2009 models do not interest me I need to buy the 50" 850U model. If they discontinue that I hope they have a 50" screen for < $3,000 that is great when the 2009 models come out.

D-Nice it's only a few more days, can you give us anymore information?

Pleeeeeeese.

Something easy, like what can we expect for <$3,000 in a 50" screen that will be available in the next few months.

I think we can all agree on that and we will have a hint of what they are doing in a few days.

This waiting is worse then walking the floor at the maternity ward.

I just wish they didn't discontinue the 50" 800U model. I can only handle a 50" screen so if the 2009 models do not interest me I need to buy the 50" 850U model. If they discontinue that I hope they have a 50" screen for < $3,000 that is great when the 2009 models come out.

D-Nice it's only a few more days, can you give us anymore information?

Pleeeeeeese.

Something easy, like what can we expect for <$3,000 in a 50" screen that will be available in the next few months.

There will be 50 inch Plasma TV's for less than 3K. However, the street price starts high in the spring and goes down by Christmas. As I recall, the street price of the 50PZ800 was in the mid 2K range shortly after release but was down to the $1800 range by Christmas. The range is usually about 25%.

So if you buy a NEOPDP when it is first released, resign yourself to paying a premium. ;)

- Rich

if it is only a few days.... why not wait?

by then you will have the whole picture instead of rumors.

Robby,

I intend to wait not only to see what is out there but also for a couple of reviews on the Panny 2009 models. I was only hoping at this time to get some info to wet my appetite.

Right now I am watching an 18 year old, 27" Toshiba CRT. Nice for it's day and it still has a good picture (??) but I think after 18 years I have received my monies worth.

I have come to realize that waiting is something I will always do with this technology and I always will, like computer chips a few years ago, if I am looking for the best HDTV at an affordable price.

I decided to upgrade when Samsung came out with the DLP's a couple of years ago. So you see I have already been waiting a long time but I don't want to wait anymore.

I am glad I didn't buy a DLP.

Then I started researching the Sammy LCD's and as great as they are I have come to realize that what I really need, and want, is a plasma.

Price, picture etc. Panny is what I can afford and from what I read it has a good bang for the buck. I could afford more but it would really need to WOW me every time I turn it on and all I am looking for is a great picture from a reliable company and something that will last. Panasonic seems to fill all of those requirements.

I am not really sure if any HDTV is worth more then $3,000 to $4,000 so again Panny seems to be it. Kuro is to expensive for me. There needs to be a $$ limit some place and that amount is what I have decided on.

Robby, thanks for the feed back and lets hope that in just a few days we are all shocked and happy at what CES unveils.

Jim

There will be 50 inch Plasma TV's for less than 3K. However, the street price starts high in the spring and goes down by Christmas. As I recall, the street price of the 50PZ800 was in the mid 2K range shortly after release but was down to the $1800 range by Christmas. The range is usually about 25%.

So if you buy a NEOPDP when it is first released, resign yourself to paying a premium. ;)

- Rich

Rich,

I hope your right about the 50 inch plasma for under < $3,000 and if it is a NEOPDP for that price I will be very happy. Everything I have read about the NEOPDP's make them sound as if they will be incredible.

The only reason I will settle for a 50 inch screen is because I live alone and if I want to move the set to a different location a 50 inch screen is easier to move then a 58 inch monster that weighs a lot more. If I wall mount this baby then it is a different story.

NEOPDP's should weigh less so if they have a 58 inch screen that I feel confident I can move to a different location I can buy that. Don't forget the weight is not always the problem the bulk (size) comes into play also.

A 58 inch screen should fit into my entertainment center with room to spare.

I can buy this through the EPP in work so my price range should be okay for the 2009 models. Heck, even the 58 inch 850U last year in the EPP was < $4,000 and that was when they first came out, so there is hope.

I sent Panasonic an e-mail and they said the 2009 models will not hit their web site until some time in April. If that's the case then I have even more time to save up the money.

Well it is only a few more days to find out.

Best wishes,

Jim

I just wish they didn't discontinue the 50" 800U model. I can only handle a 50" screen so if the 2009 models do not interest me I need to buy the 50" 850U model. If they discontinue that I hope they have a 50" screen for < $3,000 that is great when the 2009 models come out.

D-Nice it's only a few more days, can you give us anymore information?

Pleeeeeeese.

Something easy, like what can we expect for <$3,000 in a 50" screen that will be available in the next few months.


Wait is the 50pz800u discontinued??, or just on backorder. Ive been waiting to order it from panasonic and its not available to add to cart. I was told it was backordered and I should check in around mid january.

I dont feel like buying the 850 for an additional $300 if i dont have to.

and when the new 9xx come out, they will be at full price well over the 1600-1900 Im looking at now.

Some cleanup. This thread is for new Panny plasmas. Thanks.

larry

Wait is the 50pz800u discontinued??, or just on backorder. Ive been waiting to order it from panasonic and its not available to add to cart. I was told it was backordered and I should check in around mid january.

I dont feel like buying the 850 for an additional $300 if i dont have to.

and when the new 9xx come out, they will be at full price well over the 1600-1900 Im looking at now.

Well, sorry to tell you but it is not on back order.

I was wondering why I couldn't add it to the cart on the Panasonic web site. So I sent them an e-mail and their reply was that is was in fact discontinued.

There are still some around. I know that the local Circuit City up here had it the other day. I was going to buy it but it was not available for home delivery, just available for a store pick up and that's no good for me.

You can always go into the Panasonic web site and send them an e-mail but you will get the same answer I did.

So check in different web sites or better still go into the thread for the 50pz800u and ask in there if any of the on line dealers still have it available. You may get lucky.

Jim

So what is it being replaced by, or is it now just the 50PX80, 50PZ80, 50PZ85 and 50PZ850?

So what is it being replaced by, or is it now just the 50PX80, 50PZ80, 50PZ85 and 50PZ850?

Sent you a PM.

Well, sorry to tell you but it is not on back order.

I was wondering why I couldn't add it to the cart on the Panasonic web site. So I sent them an e-mail and their reply was that is was in fact discontinued.

There are still some around. I know that the local Circuit City up here had it the other day. I was going to buy it but it was not available for home delivery, just available for a store pick up and that's no good for me.

You can always go into the Panasonic web site and send them an e-mail but you will get the same answer I did.

So check in different web sites or better still go into the thread for the 50pz800u and ask in there if any of the on line dealers still have it available. You may get lucky.

Jim


costco had them on their website today for 10 minutes listed at 1799. i checked 20 mins later and they were gone

costco had them on their website today for 10 minutes listed at 1799. i checked 20 mins later and they were gone


Did you go into the thread for this model and ask in there?

Try Crutchfield you will pay more but if that model is what you want you have little choice.

I really feel like this is OS in here so I hope no one gets upset over this.

Jim

From About.Com

CES 2009 Preview: Panasonic wants you to be “Living in Hi-Definition”

"Matsushita Electric Co, Ltd. Is using their Panasonic brand to demonstrate a 103-inch plasma 3DTV and Blu-ray disc player that delivers high def images (1920 x 1080 pixels for both eyes)".

Small comment in here.

http://www.gadgetell.com/tech/comment/ces-2009-preview-panasonic-wants-you-to-be-living-in-hi-definition/"

"Matsushita Electric Co, Ltd. Is using their Panasonic brand to demonstrate a 103-inch plasma 3DTV and Blu-ray disc player that delivers high def images (1920 x 1080 pixels for both eyes)".


That's good their not 1980 x 1080 for one eye! :p

Thanks for your post/link, Jim! :)

Thanks for your post/link, Jim! :)

NP glad to finally be of some help in here.

Only one more day until CES begins.

Here in Holland, many people prefer smaller screens like 32 and 37 inch. I put off buying the 37PX80 last year expecting the 2009 model of the 37 inch to be outfitted with a NEOPDP panel. Will my wait be rewarded?

Here in Holland, many people prefer smaller screens like 32 and 37 inch. I put off buying the 37PX80 last year expecting the 2009 model of the 37 inch to be outfitted with a NEOPDP panel. Will my wait be rewarded?

Highly unlikely, IMHO. NeoPDPs will all be 1080p AFAIK, and I can't imagine they will spend the money to engineer a 37" 1920x1080 panel. Panasonic has been transitioning their 37" flat screen products from plasma to LCD for a while, and I suspect that eventually this will happen in Holland also. Here in the US (and many other regions), the 37" 1024x720 plasma offering was replaced by a 37" 1920x1080 LCD last year.

Here in Holland, many people prefer smaller screens like 32 and 37 inch. I put off buying the 37PX80 last year expecting the 2009 model of the 37 inch to be outfitted with a NEOPDP panel. Will my wait be rewarded?

I am curious why you guys in Holland prefer smaller screen size. Is it the price? I can't imagne it would be that your houses are smaller as you ceiliing height is probably not that different than in North America and wall space is always available.

Highly unlikely, IMHO. NeoPDPs will all be 1080p AFAIK, and I can't imagine they will spend the money to engineer a 37" 1920x1080 panel. Panasonic has been transitioning their 37" flat screen products from plasma to LCD for a while, and I suspect that eventually this will happen in Holland also. Here in the US (and many other regions), the 37" 1024x720 plasma offering was replaced by a 37" 1920x1080 LCD last year.

Panasonic may also transition 40" range to LCD, because the IPS-Alpha company that makes their LCD panels is expanding to make 40" LCDs in Jan 2010.

Only a few hours to go..:)
Panasonics press conference will be held from 3:00pm-3:45pm
in Las Vegas today. I will check cnet for the latest news.

I will check cnet for the latest news.

Where in CNET do you go for the latest updates?

I just looked in there and went to news, nothing to say they will update with news.

Where in CNET do you go for the latest updates?

I just looked in there and went to news, nothing to say they will update with news.

Try the ces page.

http://ces.cnet.com/?tag=TOCleftColumn.0

Panasonic may also transition 40" range to LCD, because the IPS-Alpha company that makes their LCD panels is expanding to make 40" LCDs in Jan 2010.

Possible, but since they already have the capability to manufacture 1920x1080 PDPs in 42" size there may be no compelling reason to do as you suggest.

The new models will employ the dynamic black layer in the VX100 series, correct?

http://i41.tinypic.com/1y7gah.jpg

54", 1" thick, wireless. So much for reliable "inside" info. :rolleyes:

Wow, I guess that must be one of the NeoPDPs?

For all of you as hungry as me about Panasonic's new products (and not willing to travel to CES as I wasn't this year) just check out this link where someone is at the CES 2009 Panasonic Press Conference and is blogging the announcements as they come out. Just keep refreshing your browser to get the latest!

http://www.gadgetell.com/tech/comment/new-Panasonic-products-2009-press-conference/

Wow, I guess that must be one of the NeoPDPs?

"Panasonic Z1, uses NEO PDP panel, it is 1 inch thick. The set top box is wireless. The STB sends the images to the Z1 with no image loss in full 1080p."

PANASONIC DEVELOPS SUPER HIGH-EFFICIENT THIN-PROFILE PLASMA DISPLAYS Prototypes On Display At 2009 International CES

The newly developed NeoPDP technology has been incorporated into two types of PDPs. The first is a super high-efficiency 42-inch PDP that achieves triple luminance efficiency, while reducing the power consumption to 1/3 of the 2007 models*1 yet achieving the same brightness. The second is an ultra-thin 50-inch PDP just 8.8 mm (approximately 1/3 inch) in profile*2. This ultra-thin panel delivers the world's highest moving picture resolution*3 of 1080 lines.

Panasonic continues to refine its base technologies. Employing newly developed materials, such as discharge gas and phosphor for electron generation source has improved discharge efficiency and cell structure. The introduction of a new circuit drive method has cut the electricity loss to one third and enabled low-voltage drive. The triple luminance efficiency technology has reduced the number of components and enabled a higher integration of components. As a result, the technology has been incorporated into a 42-inch Full HD PDP.

Further advancements made to the panel structure and circuit layout have lead to an even thinner profile. While a full HD PDP has a moving picture resolution of more than 900 lines, the newly developed drive technology and materials to shorten the afterglow have attained the world’s highest moving resolution of 1080 lines, realizing precise reproduction of full HD programs of any speed without loss of detail. Panasonic’s new 50-inch HD PDP is just 8.8mm (approximately 1/3 inch) deep, with superb picture quality and thin panel design.

http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&itemId=322747&modelNo=Content01072009125323585&surfModel=Content01072009125323585

Panasonic introduces wireless, 1-inch thick TC-P54Z1 VIERA plasma

http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/07/panasonic-introduces-wireless-1-inch-thick-tc-p54z1-viera-plasm/

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/01/ces09-panaz1-001.jpg

PANASONIC DEVELOPS SUPER HIGH-EFFICIENT THIN-PROFILE PLASMA DISPLAYS Prototypes On Display At 2009 International CES



http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&itemId=322747&modelNo=Content01072009125323585&surfModel=Content01072009125323585Sounds like quicker phosphor is the reason for increased motion resolution.

PANASONIC VIERA Plasma HDTV

Z1 Series

The flagship VIERA plasma in 2009 is the Z1 series, with a revolutionary one inch thin panel design and Wireless HD connectivity to deliver the ultimate sleek, uncluttered HDTV viewing experience. Also included on the VIERA Z1 is VIERA CAST web menu with the new streaming HD movie rental capability via Amazon Video-on-Demand. The Neo PDP design of the VIERA Z1 produces a brighter picture, deeper blacks, improved native contrast ratio (40,000:1) and Full-Time 1080 TV lines of motion resolution. Other Z1 model features include;1080p resolution, a THX Certified Display; an Infinite Black panel; 600Hz Sub-field Drive; and VIERA Linkä, and VIERA Image Viewer for playing back digital still images and AVCHD videos recorded on SD Memory Cards. The Z1 series will be available in the summer of 2009 in the new TC-54Z1, 54-inch class screen size (54” measured diagonally).

V10 Series

The VIERA V10 series are slim, 2-inch thin plasma HDTVs with built-in tuners. The V10 series offer such cutting edge innovations as Digital Cinema Color™ which helps to deliver all movie-essential colors, full THX Display certification, and the VIERA CAST web menu with Amazon Video on Demand services. The Neo PDP design of the V10 series features 1080p resolution; deeper blacks, improved native contrast ratio of 40,000:1; Full-Time 1080 TV lines of motion resolution; an Infinite Black panel; 600Hz Sub-field Drive; VIERA Link, and VIERA Image Viewer for playing back digital still images and AVCHD videos recorded on SD Memory Cards. The V10 series is available in a 65-inch class (64.8” measured diagonally), 58-inch class (58” measured diagonally), 54-inch class (54” measured diagonally), and a 50-inch class (49.9” measured diagonally) screen size. The 50-inch model with one-sheet-of-glass design will be available in May 2009 and the remaining models will be available in the summer of 2009.

G10 Series

The VIERA G10 Plasma series include features like the VIERA CAST web menu, a THX certified Display, and VIERA Image Viewer for playing back digital still images and AVCHD videos recorded on SD Memory Cards. The NEO PDP design of the G10 series also offers 1080p resolution, deeper blacks, improved native contrast ratio of 40,000:1, Full-Time 1080 TV lines of motion resolution, an Infinite Black panel, 600Hz Sub-field Drive, as well as Game Mode and VIERA Link. The G10 series will be available in a 54-inch class (54” measured diagonally), 50-inch class (49.9” measured diagonally), 46-inch class (46” measured diagonally), and 42-inch class (41.6” measured diagonally) screen size. The 42-inch, 46-inch and 50-inch HDTVs will be available in March 2009, while the 54-inch model will be available in May 2009.

S1 Series

The VIERA S1 Plasma series offers a broad range of HDTVs which also represent the first VIERA plasma series to feature the new NEO PDP designs. Key features of the S1 series include Full-Time 1080 TV lines of motion resolution, which eliminate traditional HDTV motion blur. The S1 series also feature THX certified displays together with VIERA Image Viewer. Other features include 1080p resolution; a native contrast ratio of 40,000:1; an Infinite Black panel; 600Hz Sub-field Drive; and a Game Mode. The S1 series will compliment the V10 65” screen size with its own 65-inch class (64.7” measured diagonally) product. Other S1 sizes include a 58-inch class (58” measured diagonally), a 54-inch class (54” measured diagonally), a 50-inch class (49.9” measured diagonally), a 46-inch class (46” measured diagonally), and a 42-inch class (41.6” measured diagonally). The 42-inch, 46-inch and 50-inch HDTVs will be available in March 2009 while the 54-inch will be available in the summer of 2009.

X1 Series

Panasonic’s focus in 2009 continues to be on high definition 1080p HDTVs but the VIERA X1 series represent a line of 720p plasma HDTVs which help Panasonic deliver on its promise to satisfy consumer demands for differing HDTV resolution options. The X1 VIERA HDTVs offer stunning picture performance with a 600Hz Sub-field Drive that delivers razor-sharp motion focus, VIERA Image Viewer for sharing digital photos with friends and family, and VIERA Link control of all compatible A/V home entertainment components via a single remote. The X1 series also feature improved native contrast ratio of 30,000:1, an Infinite Black panel, and a Game Mode. The VIERA X1 plasmas are available in a 50-inch class (49.9” measured diagonally) and 42-inch class (41.6” measured diagonally).

http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&itemId=322752&modelNo=Content01072009012646554&surfModel=Content01072009012646554

Any pictures? I actually like the new naming conventions - they sound like they could be more straightforward - unless it's 42900V10, 50900G10, etc.

Looks like the 65" will remain the same as 2008

I wonder how they suddenly came up with the 54" size. But maybe this makes sense since the sizes seem to go up by 4" except for the 65" size.

42" to 46" = 4"
46" to 50" = 4"
50" to 54" = 4"
54" to 58" = 4"
58" to 65" = 7"

Also I guess the introduction of the 46" and 54" sizes are to temper the previous big price jumps between the 42" and 50" and the 50" and the 58".

But then why isn't there a 62" or 66"?

Also I guess the introduction of the 46" and 54" sizes are to temper the previous big price jumps between the 42" and 50" and the 50" and the 58".

But then why isn't there a 62" or 66"?

?? There was a 46" model last year - it's not a new size.

I just found this panasonic website with pics and more info:

http://panasonic.net/avc/viera/

?? There was a 46" model last year - it's not a new size.

Never said it was a new size. My point was that it was introduced when it was in order to bridge the gap.

Can someone explain to me in what environments someone would absolutely have to have a wireless set top box? Is it mostly an aesthetic concern? ie beng able to mount the display right against the wall or for situations where you might see the back of the display (like in a commercial environment) and you don't want all those ugly wires showing?

What is the target market? I notice it is only provided on the most expensive series right now, but I bet in a few years we'll likely see it as standard on all models.

Never said it was a new size. My point was that it was introduced when it was in order to bridge the gap.

Sorry. Your statement seemed to be referencing the press release. Thought you were implying that the 46" was something new for 2009.

Wow, so the inch-thick models are wireless only. That is somewhat disappointing as I am concerned that, as with past wireless A/V connectivity efforts, there will be too much lag to use them for gaming. If this remains true in this case, it will be a show stopper for me, and I suspect for others also. Even if they display offered just a single hard wired (HDMI) port, that would at least make it viable for attaching game consoles via an AVR.

Edit: Panasonic has a blurb about using the wirelessHD with Video games: http://panasonic.net/avc/viera/us/wireless_hd/more.html#games. It will be interesting to see how well it works in real life.

I just want the 65" version of the neo-pdp. DO they have a 65"????

The pics I saw, from the ces, did not mention what the actual size of the new displays are? Just the thickness; of either the 1" thich or the 0.33 inch thick plasmas.

Which models are not Neo PDP, just the X series?

I noticed the website shows the new LCDs as well, though nothing spectacular.

I just want the 65" version of the neo-pdp. DO they have a 65"????

The pics I saw, from the ces, did not mention what the actual size of the new displays are?

There are two 65" models. Check the other thread started by VFR.

Just the thickness; of either the 1" thich or the 0.33 inch thick plasmas.

The inch thick model comes only in 54" size. The 1/3 inch thick model is just a prototype.

Can someone explain to me in what environments someone would absolutely have to have a wireless set top box? Is it mostly an aesthetic concern? ie beng able to mount the display right against the wall or for situations where you might see the back of the display (like in a commercial environment) and you don't want all those ugly wires showing?

What is the target market? I notice it is only provided on the most expensive series right now, but I bet in a few years we'll likely see it as standard on all models.

Maybe those folks that hang them over the fireplace? Or if you keep your components in a closest, this could give you a little more flexability I guess. I can't see using myself though.

Maybe those folks that hang them over the fireplace? Or if you keep your components in a closest, this could give you a little more flexability I guess. I can't see using myself though.

Yeah, but you still have to run a power cable to the plasma display...

I don't understand why would eliminate the single (thin) HDMI cable when you still need a power cable for your flat panel TV. So much for wall mounting with "interior designer friendly aesthetics":rolleyes:without hacking up your drywall. If you have to cut holes in drywall and fish cables to run the power line, why not run the HDMI cable at the same time? I just don't see how having a big black power cable is OK yet having a thin HDMI cable gets you in trouble with the style police.

Color me unimpressed with the Z1.:p

Yeah, but you still have to run a power cable to the plasma display...

I don't understand why would eliminate the single (thin) HDMI cable when you still need a power cable for your flat panel TV. So much for wall mounting with "interior designer friendly aesthetics":rolleyes:without hacking up your drywall. If you have to cut holes in drywall and fish cables to run the power line, why not run the HDMI cable at the same time? I just don't see how having a big black power cable is OK yet having a thin HDMI cable gets you in trouble with the style police.

I see your point, but consider that the power line can just be run down the wall to the fuse box basement while that HDMI cable would have to be run to wherever you wish to the place the media box and all the components you wish to plug into it. By having the connection wireless, you could place everything in a closet across the room for example, without worrying about how to getting the HDMI line there.

As I mentioned above, my big concern with the WirelessHD tech is lag for games. Panasonic has an interesting spin on this on their website:

"The wireless system's high speed makes game playing more fun, because there's hardly any time lag between button pressing and screen movement."

Gee, so games will now be more fun because there is hardly any lag time? :rolleyes: Wow, and to think we have to suffer with today's situation where (on a good display, anyway) there is imperceptible lag time.

Does having 1080 lines of motion resolution mean there is no phosphor lag?

Are the new Panasonic plasmas going to refresh at 72 or will they remain at 48-flicker TV?

Does anyone have any idea on what these will cost?

Even a ball park figure for the 50 inch screens or larger?

Cheaper or more expensive then last years top models?

Well, at 40K:1 Contrast ratio (native) they're around Pioneer 9G levels I believe. Still, I hoped it would be better.
Gotta love that 1" design, though. I was looking into a Pioneer 141, but this would do if the cost is right. :)

Well, at 40K:1 Contrast ratio (native) they're around Pioneer 9G levels I believe. Still, I hoped it would be better.
Gotta love that 1" design, though. I was looking into a Pioneer 141, but this would do if the cost is right. :)

the 2008 models of panasonic where rated at 30000:1 native contrast but mesured was between 3000 and 4000 to 1, so 40000:1 is a letdown. 9g kuros where between 30000 and 40000 to 1 measured. i would expect at minimum 60000:1

anyway this year ces seems to focus more about the thickness of tv than the image quality...boring

yes i said the same thing where's the image quality, iam disappointed

yes i said the same thing where's the image quality

http://i42.tinypic.com/2viqedt.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/2viqedt.jpg


For those of us lacking technical knowledge (and interpretation) what does this mean?

the 2008 models of panasonic where rated at 30000:1 native contrast but mesured was between 3000 and 4000 to 1, so 40000:1 is a letdown. 9g kuros where between 30000 and 40000 to 1 measured. i would expect at minimum 60000:1

anyway this year ces seems to focus more about the thickness of tv than the image quality...boring

They introduced a new panel technology - since every tech has tradeoffs, they probably weren't able to boost contrast ratio that much in this first round of Neo PDPs.

"The flagship VIERA plasma in 2009 is the Z1 series, with a revolutionary one inch thin panel design and Wireless HD connectivity to deliver the ultimate sleek, uncluttered HDTV viewing experience"

Will these panels also have an Ethernet connection? I'm not sure if wireless connectivity is the best approach to use to support streaming video/audio applications with; given the ~25% hit w/download speeds that are incurred when using a wireless versus a wired network connection.

Will these panels also have an Ethernet connection? I'm not sure if wireless connectivity is the best approach to use to support streaming video/audio applications with; given the ~25% hit w/download speeds that are incurred when using a wireless versus a wired network connection.

WirelessHD isn't for streaming video in the typical sense. This is a cable replacement technology, and is designed to support the bandwidth required for 1080p video. Bandwidth is much higher than your typical wireless networking technology, even 802.11n. Here's some info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WirelessHD

So it sounds like the differences between G10 and V10 are that V10 is 2 inches thick, has a 65" model, and has the one pane of glass design. 65" V10 sounds like it's the one for me. While Z1 looks cool, I don't see the point of wireless hdmi. I don't want to find the room for another set top box. I'm happy to hide cables behind my tv and not worry about the potential drawbacks of wireless connections. Z1 might be good for wall-mounting, but that's not for me.

Sounds like quicker phosphor is the reason for increased motion resolution.

So it sounds like the differences between G10 and V10 are that V10 is 2 inches thick, has a 65" model, and has the one pane of glass design. 65" V10 sounds like it's the one for me. While Z1 looks cool, I don't see the point of wireless hdmi. I don't want to find the room for another set top box. I'm happy to hide cables behind my tv and not worry about the potential drawbacks of wireless connections. Z1 might be good for wall-mounting, but that's not for me.

I am not sure that the 65 V10 is one sheet of glass.
The last line of the V10 announcement reads
The 50-inch model with one-sheet-of-glass design will be available in May 2009 and the remaining models will be available in the summer of 2009.

Does that mean the others are not one-sheet of glass or that the 50 is available first and they are all one-sheet of glass?

- Rich

Panasonic officially premieres Z1 wireless HDTV

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadgethd.com/media/2009/01/ces09-panaz1-001.jpg
(http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/01/08/panasonic-officially-premieres-z1-wireless-hdtv/)

Chris

For those of us lacking technical knowledge (and interpretation) what does this mean?Picture shows the driving waveform (how the plasma pixels are driven). The bottom waveforms (2 of them overlapping) are for the sustain electrodes (on top). The presence of the triangle shaped peak indicates it is the reset pulse. Interesting there is only one of them similar to Pioneer CLEAR driving. I wonder if this is new or they have been doing this for a while now. The top waveform is the column electrode (address electrode on bottom) that addresses the pixels (turns them on and off).

I don't see what is new other than the use of one reset pulse. Note that this is good evidence that these panels are not infinite black since they still use a reset pulse.

Does 24p cinematic playback mean 72 refresh or 48 refresh flicker TV?

ok,
Which models are neo-pdps and are they 5-lumen tech?

ok,
Which models are neo-pdps and are they 5-lumen tech?The ones with the "eco" label.

Going to go against some people here and say I am pretty impressed with panny's lineup. Solid combination of features on each line, a guaranteed improved contrast on every set over what was already one of the best performers in the business there (the pz800u), and thinner design to draw some hype.

In a CES full of gimmicky crap (quirky panel designs, completely useless 240 hz and a plethora of internet connectivity come to mind), looking at the spec sheet panasonic has appeared to improve their PQ in a number of basic but important areas.

People here wishing they were going to get pioneer elite-151 performance out of a panasonic this year are being disingenous. Its not that the panasonics are bad, its that the 111/151 is so good. This display with its nearly perfect black will remain the benchmark this year, and it will carry the highest price. Panasonic will not compete with it, nor are they expecting to.

They will offer the Z1 series for a similar price but its proposition will not include the same level of PQ, but rather offer other benefits such as an amazingly thin panel and raised peak brightness that will appeal to a different type of buyer. Yes they will have very good blacks as well, but they will not be matching the 9G pioneer. If they did, it would be quite the engineering feat and panny could charge double for the line. Pioneer would be pretty screwed too.

So lets assume the black level will fall just short of the 8G kuro. I think some of you on here must never have seen an 8G, because its black level performance is fantastic, regardless of its date of entry on the market. So here we have these new panasonic displays with excellent blacks without the viewing-angle-killing shenanigans of Led lcd, and people are complaining?

I think people are forgetting that panasonic always strives to offer excellent PQ while retaining prices to compete with mainline panel manufactuers. This does not mean surpassing the high-end product on the market (pioneer) which is not the area where they are focusing on. They must compete on price with other companies that are their natural competitors, and to reduce prices they must find efficiencies and in turn sell in high volumes. In the best case scenario this translates to excellent, but not the absolute best PQ. And from what I have seen that is what they have done for the past few years and will continue to do with these neoPDPs.

All in all, can't wait to see these sets in action.

The ones with the "eco" label.

Which series please? Only the Z and V series (respectively 1 and 2 inches)?
So what means Neo pdp then if the sets are not 5lm/W? It's quite ambiguous ...

Very well said.
Going to go against some people here and say I am pretty impressed with panny's lineup. Solid combination of features on each line, a guaranteed improved contrast on every set over what was already one of the best performers in the business there (the pz800u), and thinner design to draw some hype.

In a CES full of gimmicky crap (quirky panel designs, completely useless 240 hz and a plethora of internet connectivity come to mind), looking at the spec sheet panasonic has appeared to improve their PQ in a number of basic but important areas.

People here wishing they were going to get pioneer elite-151 performance out of a panasonic this year are being disingenous. Its not that the panasonics are bad, its that the 111/151 is so good. This display with its nearly perfect black will remain the benchmark this year, and it will carry the highest price. Panasonic will not compete with it, nor are they expecting to.

They will offer the Z1 series for a similar price but its proposition will not include the same level of PQ, but rather offer other benefits such as an amazingly thin panel and raised peak brightness that will appeal to a different type of buyer. Yes they will have very good blacks as well, but they will not be matching the 9G pioneer. If they did, it would be quite the engineering feat and panny could charge double for the line. Pioneer would be pretty screwed too.

So lets assume the black level will fall just short of the 8G kuro. I think some of you on here must never have seen an 8G, because its black level performance is fantastic, regardless of its date of entry on the market. So here we have these new panasonic displays with excellent blacks without the viewing-angle-killing shenanigans of Led lcd, and people are complaining?

I think people are forgetting that panasonic always strives to offer excellent PQ while retaining prices to compete with mainline panel manufactuers. This does not mean surpassing the high-end product on the market (pioneer) which is not the area where they are focusing on. They must compete on price with other companies that are their natural competitors, and to reduce prices they must find efficiencies and in turn sell in high volumes. In the best case scenario this translates to excellent, but not the absolute best PQ. And from what I have seen that is what they have done for the past few years and will continue to do with these neoPDPs.

All in all, can't wait to see these sets in action.

It would be ludicrious to believe that the blacks of the G12 Pannys will not match G8 Kuro Plasmas. I mean the G11 Pannys already came super close. Cnet said, "Even in side by side comparisons it was hard to discern the difference."

So, if that is the case, then you would think that the G12 Pannys will at the very least match the G8 Kuro blacks. Though, I believe they will go just a hair deeper.

Which series please? Only the Z and V series (respectively 1 and 2 inches)?
So what means Neo pdp then if the sets are not 5lm/W? It's quite ambiguous ...

I'm curious about this as well.

It would be ludicrious to believe that the blacks of the G12 Pannys will not match G8 Kuro Plasmas. I mean the G11 Pannys already came super close. Cnet said, "Even in side by side comparisons it was hard to discern the difference."

So, if that is the case, then you would think that the G12 Pannys will at the very least match the G8 Kuro blacks. Though, I believe they will go just a hair deeper.

We already know that on paper they won't match the 8G. But it seems they could be close enough such that those who want Kuro blacks from Panny will be satisfied.

Which series please? Only the Z and V series (respectively 1 and 2 inches)?
So what means Neo pdp then if the sets are not 5lm/W? It's quite ambiguous ...
Z through S

But it seems they could be close enough such that those who want Kuro blacks from Panny will be satisfied.And this is all that will matter to the majority of people.

We already know that on paper they won't match the 8G. But it seems they could be close enough such that those who want Kuro blacks from Panny will be satisfied.

It will be so close that any difference will not be picked up by the naked eye. I'm guessing black level measurements using testing equipment will tell another story, but that isn't of concern to me. All that matters is what you see, and not what some egghead with some testing equipment reads.

I'm still rocking a G9 58" Panny plasma and I'm still satisfied with the pq. Yeah, the blacks are more blue/gray in dark scenes, but it's still an acceptable picture.

It will be a nice upgrade when I buy one of the new G12 Pannys.

It will be so close that any difference will not be picked up by the naked eye.Can you visually tell a difference between a 10G Panasonic and 11G Panasonic? Can you visually tell a difference between a 8G Kuro and 9G Kuro? If you can say yes to either one of those, then you will be able to see the difference between a 11G Panasonic, a 12G Panasonics and a 8G Kuro. If you said no to anything above, get a 11G Panasonic and be done with it.

I am going to counter D-Nice's response of ercc's comments. It was very well said! Another thing to point out is that "something has to give". Its very difficult to have the deepest black levels and performance at their price point.

Panasonic can easily compete among the Kuro's, but that is not the market they want to go up against. Take for examples, Vizio's model of distribution. Their business proposition is based soley on Sam's and Costco (family market). They don't have the best performing flat panels, but they are affordable! People who shop at Sam's and Costco are everyday families, that don't care about color saturation, black levels, calibration, and accuracy.

Chris

Can you visually tell a difference between a 10G Panasonic and 11G Panasonic? Can you visually tell a difference between a 8G Kuro and 9G Kuro? If you can say yes to either one of those, then you will be able to see the difference between a 11G Panasonic, a 12G Panasonics and a 8G Kuro. If you said no to anything above, get a 11G Panasonic and be done with it.

Cnet said that it was very hard to discern the difference between G11 Panny and G8 Kuro. So, my guess is that the G12 Panasonic plasmas will match the G8 Kuros, or at least come so close that any difference would have to be measured using testing equipment and not the human eye.

I am going to counter D-Nice's response of ercc's comments. It was very well said! Another thing to point out is that "something has to give". Its very difficult to have the deepest black levels and performance at their price point.

Panasonic can easily compete among the Kuro's, but that is not the market they want to go up against. Take for examples, Vizio's model of distribution. Their business proposition is based soley on Sam's and Costco (family market). They don't have the best performing flat panels, but they are affordable! People who shop at Sam's and Costco are everyday families, that don't care about color saturation, black levels, calibration, and accuracy.

ChrisYou are correct Chris. Panasonic is trying to ensure that PDPs survive the 3rd tier PDP manufacturers and the cheap LCDs. Panasonic has a huge investment in PDPs and isn't about to loss market share to satisfy videophiles.

Cnet said that it was very hard to discern the difference between G11 Panny and G8 Kuro.David and the CNet crew don't hold much weight here.

So, my guess is that the G12 Panasonic plasmas will match the G8 Kuros, or at least come so close that any difference would have to be measured using testing equipment and not the human eye.Get the 3 together and see for youself in your own home.

"It matched the PZ85U's black levels to our eye, and while it still wasn't quite as dark as the Pioneer Kuro, the difference was hard to discern even in side-by-side comparisons of the darkest scenes."

Cnet review of the Panasonic PZ800U.