David and the CNet crew don't hold much weight here.

Get the 3 together and see for youself in your own home.

So, what are they blind?

How the hell am I going to get all three in my home? Man, you really don't want anything touching the Pioneer performance. Look how you attack me when I said they are coming close, it's like your protecting your beloved tech.

Calm down man, I'm just making an opinion. Your Kuro girlfriend is still safe.

"It matched the PZ85U's black levels to our eye, and while it still wasn't quite as dark as the Pioneer Kuro, the difference was hard to discern even in side-by-side comparisons of the darkest scenes."

Cnet review of the Panasonic PZ800U.He knows what the review says, and what he meant was that the reviews by Katzmeier are sketchy and he wouldn't trust it. The 800 series had blacks of .008-.010 ft. lamberts. The 8G kuros have .004 Foot lamberts. The 9G kuros are .0008 foot lamberts or less or slightly more (depends how long you've used it). We're assuming (as D-Nice can't release the actual MLL on the 12G Panasonics) that the Panasonics have a black level around .005-.006 Foot lamberts.

So, what are they blind?

How the hell am I going to get all three in my home? Man, you really don't want anything touching the Pioneer performance. Look how you attack me when I said they are coming close, it's like your protecting your beloved tech.

Calm down man, I'm just making an opinion. Your Kuro girlfriend is still safe.In case you didn't know, he's owned panasonic displays and provided help to panasonic owners as well as kuro owners. You don't have a need to get defensive about a product that you haven't seen or you haven't seen legitimate numbers on.

So, what are they blind?

How the hell am I going to get all three in my home? Man, you really don't want anything touching the Pioneer performance. Look how you attack me when I said they are coming close, it's like your protecting your beloved tech.

Calm down man, I'm just making an opinion. Your Kuro girlfriend is still safe.Calm down? I'm giving you options on how to verify things for yourself instead of depending on others (including myself). C-Net isn't the place to get real data. If you want real and reliable data beyond what is provided on AVS, HT magazine and Ultimate A/V magazine are much better (minus Scott Wilkinson).

He knows what the review says, and what he meant was that the reviews by Katzmeier are sketchy and he wouldn't trust it. The 800 series had blacks of .008-.010 ft. lamberts. The 8G kuros have .004 Foot lamberts. The 9G kuros are .0008 foot lamberts or less or slightly more (depends how long you've used it).

Again, that is measurements, not real world viewing comparisons.

Measurements are good indicators of how black these displays can get, but your eyes don't lie. If you can't see a big difference then there isn't one.

ercc, I'm still not happy with Panny's decision to Not Make A 42" Model With Good Sound Quality.

As I've said in other posts I think tv manufactures are blowing it in the smaller sizes by not giving us a model that has excellect sound quality at a "Reasonable Price" because a lot of the smaller sizes are going to end up in bed rooms & spare rooms & will never be hooked up to audio systems.

At least they should have had optional speakers that could have been hooked on to the tv for better sound quality. Look at all the "Sound Bars" that other companies have been selling & to me that should be sending Panasonic & other tv manufactures a message. PLEASE DO MORE ABOUT THE SOUND QUALITY ON YOUR TVs.

All you guys are just number hoes.

Look at how low my numbers are. Oh yeah, look at mine they are much lower. Oh yeah, well mine are super duper low, so I win.

That is the war against Samsung, Panasonic and Kuro owners in a nutshell.

Again, that is measurements, not real world viewing comparisons.REAL world viewing comparisons would be in your home environment.

Again, that is measurements, not real world viewing comparisons.

Measurements are good indicators of how black these displays can get, but your eyes don't lie. If you can't see a big difference then there isn't one.If you can't see a big difference then there isn't one??? If you can see a small difference (not a big difference), there still is a difference, and it is noticeable. Measurements can't lie when you have solid numbers favoring one display. That shows that there is a difference that is visible if you can see reasonably well.

Key point: Numbers translate into picture quality.

Calm down? I'm giving you options on how to verify things for yourself instead of depending on others (including myself). C-Net isn't the place to get real data. If you want real and reliable data beyond what is provided on AVS, HT magazine and Ultimate A/V magazine are much better (minus Scott Wilkinson).

I don't just care about measured data. Sorry, what is important is how two, or three displays are compared in a darken room and the differences that can seen by the naked eye first, then all the measured data can come afterwards.

Color accuracy is different, because there is a standard and the only way to find out is by testing the display with equipment. Though, if the colors are really inaccurate the human eye would be able to pick that up.

I don't just use Cnet by the way.

Here is the thing.


Unless the blacks are night and day difference, spending the extra $$$$$$$ makes 0 sense.

Cnet had the two displays side by side, you can't counter attack that. If they were just going by memory than I would agree that Cnet has credibility issues.

If I were to test two pencils, say one had slightly been sharpened more than the other, and if I compared them side by side I can come to a conclusion that one has been used more than the other just by using the naked eye. I don't have to use some kind of measuring device to come to this conclusion.

I don't care about measured data. Sorry, all I care about is how two, or three displays are compared in a darken room and the differences that can seen by the naked eye.

I don't just use Cnet.Oh so you have read my 111FD review which I had 3 displays side by side in my home? Again, that is the best way to evaluatate anything and has absolutely nothing to do with numbers (abet the numbers backup what you will see).

I don't care about measured data. Sorry, all I care about is how two, or three displays are compared in a darken room and the differences that can seen by the naked eye.

I don't just use Cnet.So then why are supporting a display so vehemently that you haven't even seen yet, as compared to displays that have been used and proved. (I'm talking about this quote) It would be ludicrious to believe that the blacks of the G12 Pannys will .not match G8 Kuro Plasmas. I mean the G11 Pannys already came super close. Cnet said, "Even in side by side comparisons it was hard to discern the difference."


Just because Cnet said it was hard to discern a difference doesn't mean it was super close. That could change on a variety of factors.

edit: Here is the thing.

If it's only a small difference, than why the hell would I shell out an extra $1000-2000 for that small difference? We are talking very small now.That is a personal opinion. Only you can decide what you want to buy.

Here is the thing.

If it's only a small difference, than why the hell would I shell out an extra $1000-2000 for that small difference? We are talking very small now.Who exactly are you attempting to prove something to? Buy the panel that suites your needs and wallet and be done with it.

Does 24p cinematic playback mean 72 refresh or 48 refresh flicker TV?

The 24p flicker problem on the 50PZ800U was discussed at great length elsewhere on this forum. Does anyone know if the new V10 models solve the flicker problem?

I'm glad to see that the first neo panels (S1 series) will be available in March. That is much sooner than I expected.

Something got my attention in a article I was reading and it mentioned the "Infinite Black" feature and how it basically shuts off the set in dark scenes. This sounds like the current "Real Black Drive" that causes floating blacks on the current Panny plasma sets, please tell me that they didn't put a feature like this in the sets, and if they did, at least allow us to shut it off. :confused:

And just how many Component cable inputs will these sets have?

Who exactly are you attempting to prove something to? Buy the panel that suites your needs and wallet and be done with it.

I'm just stating my opinion and trying to make this forum a little less robotic.

Oh so you have read my 111FD review which I had 3 displays side by side in my home? Again, that is the best way to evaluatate anything and has absolutely nothing to do with numbers (abet the numbers backup what you will see).

I haven't said anything negative about the way you perform reviews and comparisons.

I'm just saying, if it's a small difference then it shouldn't equal out to a high premium. That is all.

D-Nice, where is your comparison review of a G11 Panny against a G8 Kuro?

Specifically, a Panny PZ800U model vs. a non Elite G8 Kuro.

I can't find it.

" We're assuming (as D-Nice can't release the actual MLL on the 12G Panasonics) that the Panasonics have a black level around .005-.006 Foot lamberts."

Just as I said, the difference between the G8 Kuros at .004FL vs. the new Pannys will not be seen by the naked eye.

However, are you going to tell me you would be able to see the + 1-2 extra fl, because I'm going to have to call bs on that. I understand they won't be 100% equal on a measuring scale, but what counts is what you see and I highly doubt anyone will be able to see a difference.

"
However, are you going to tell me you would be able to see the + 1-2 extra fl, because I'm going to have to call bs on that. I understand they won't be 100% equal on a measuring scale, but what counts is what you see and I highly doubt anyone will be able to see a difference.

I guess that you did not see the Pioneer booth at last years CES when they had a 8/9G Kuro next to a ?G Kuro with .000 Fl.

It was a huge difference.

I am really looking forward to hearing the official MLL of the neo pdps.
I certainly hope its better than what I am hearing so far.
Because if it is what i am hearing, I will not be considering these displays unfortunalty.
I had thought the blacks were supposed to be 9g-like or deeper, I guess that was all just speculation.
But still, I am very happy to hear that they wil be super bright for those "Dynamic" viewers who always seem to go for LCD.
This is a good thing for plasma.:)

I'm just saying, if it's a small difference then it shouldn't equal out to a high premium. That is all.

Isn't that what videophiles do? (pay high premiums for marginal improvements, that is.)

more posts deleted

thread bans next

D-Nice: No one here seems to know whether all of Panasonic's Plasmas will refresh at at 48--a la flicker TV or 72 like Pioneer. Do you know what the answer is?

Panasonic makes some great Blu-Ray players.

It is hard for me to understand why they wouldn't make at least one of their plasma sets that would refresh at 72 so there would be less judder and more performance with their Blu-Ray players.

And it's not like they haven't heard of many people complaining about 48 refresh flicker.

And it's not like refresh at 72 would cost out the wazoo and be impossible for Panasonic to accomplish--that's not unbelievable high-end like Pioneer's blacks--that is an attainable thing that they could accomplish.

I wonder if the reason that no one seems to have an answer to thar question is because they don't know--or maybe that they do know and don't want the answer to be known?

Any Plasma set that claims to have 24p Cinematic playback and then refreshes at 48 instead of 72 is just a fraud.

So what is the answer--has Panasonic entered into the age of Blu-Ray or are they just a fraud?

If all Panasonic plasma sets refresh at 48 or 60 instead of 72 and you don't hear about it here you know that the PR sales plants are doing their job!

it's a huge difference in my opinion because Pioneer uses a single sheet of glass in there Plasma Panels. this gives you less glare and I'm sure there are more advantages of the single sheet of glass Panel that only Pioneer uses. I wonder when Panasonic will have this type of Panel. maybe in 2010?

if I had to bet on it.... Panasonic would had already let us know if they went to 72 or 96 in there 2009 TV's.
So it must be a better version of there 48?

if it's a small difference then it shouldn't equal out to a high premium. That is all.

Panasonics look good as always and had a very nice set up at CES. There are 4 series. The 46" will still be in and a 54" will be added.

X series (release in March)

TC-P37X1
TC-P42X1


S-Series (release in June)

TC-P32S1
TC-P37S1
TC-P46S1
TC-P50S1
TC-P54S1

G Series (release in June)

TC-P32G10
TC-P37G10
TC-P46G10
TC-P50G10
TC-P54G10

V Series (release in June)

TC-P50V10
TC-P54V10
TC-P58V10
TC-P65V10

NeoPDP (not sure of the model number) will only be in 54" this year and that unit is wireless and 5/8" thick and a smokin picture. Release for this unit is in June.

All you guys are just number hoes.

Look at how low my numbers are. Oh yeah, look at mine they are much lower. Oh yeah, well mine are super duper low, so I win.

That is the war against Samsung, Panasonic and Kuro owners in a nutshell.
Dude,
This is AVS; #'s are super important here.
You are certainly allowed an opinion; butt you have nothing too back it up.
You haven't seen the displays; yet you want us all too believe the blacks will be the same or we're all ho's.
That makes no sense & will get you kicked out of the party too boot (p.i.).

This is how it goes here (friendly advice), numbers do count even if most people would/could not tell the difference. Kuro blks are king; even if in a side by side comparison the avg person could not tell the difference.
End of story.

On the other hand, as your trying too point out (your just not winning any points by doing so), most people will be hap, hap, happy w/12G Pana blks.
You are correct about that. However you have no info too back up 12G Panas will be equal too 8G Kuros.
So be happy, that you'll be happy, w/the '09 Pana blks!
Happy New Yr!

There are 4 series...
Thanks for the list.

NeoPDP will only be in 54" this year and that unit is wireless and 5/8" thick and a smokin picture. Release in June On these units.
"Only" a 54" Neo in all of '09???
Which June release series will the Neo be (S, G, or V)?
BIG thanks.

I'm just saying, if it's a small difference then it shouldn't equal out to a high premium. That is all.Key things for you to remember....

What my eyes, wallet and PQ requirements are differs from yours. I can visibly see a difference between the 800u, 8G Kuro and 9G Kuro and I find the 9G Kuro worth the price. Again, that's me.

NeoPDP (not sure of the model number) will only be in 54" this year and that unit is wireless and 5/8" thick and a smokin picture. Release in June On these units.

Just a note: I was scrablin to look at everything and spent a lot of time with Panasonic, Samsung, and Toshiba. Most of this info is correct, but I am human ;)

Just as I said, the difference between the G8 Kuros at .004FL vs. the new Pannys will not be seen by the naked eye.Yes it can.

Can anyone find the video from Robert's 2008 display shootout????

Anyone and everyone who attended tha shootout will tell you that the difference can be seen. And not just in a pitch black room.

D-Nice, where is your comparison review of a G11 Panny against a G8 Kuro?

Specifically, a Panny PZ800U model vs. a non Elite G8 Kuro.

I can't find it.The link is in my signature.

D-Nice: No one here seems to know whether all of Panasonic's Plasmas will refresh at at 48--a la flicker TV or 72 like Pioneer. Do you know what the answer is?

Panasonic makes some great Blu-Ray players.

It is hard for me to understand why they wouldn't make at least one of their plasma sets that would refresh at 72 so there would be less judder and more performance with their Blu-Ray players.

And it's not like they haven't heard of many people complaining about 48 refresh flicker.

And it's not like refresh at 72 would cost out the wazoo and be impossible for Panasonic to accomplish--that's not unbelievable high-end like Pioneer's blacks--that is an attainable thing that they could accomplish.

I wonder if the reason that no one seems to have an answer to thar question is because they don't know--or maybe that they do know and don't want the answer to be known?

Any Plasma set that claims to have 24p Cinematic playback and then refreshes at 48 instead of 72 is just a fraud.

So what is the answer--has Panasonic entered into the age of Blu-Ray or are they just a fraud?The flicker on the sub 58" screen 11G Panasonics was an error on Panasonic's end. It was corrected with the 58" models. As far as I know, and I really haven't asked about this particular item, they will stll have 48Hz playback.

NeoPDP (not sure of the model number) will only be in 54" this year and that unit is wireless and 5/8" thick and a smokin picture. Release for this unit is in June.The Neo PDP modules are in the s thru Z series. The Z series (1" thick model) is the most "advance" NeoPDP.

How does the NeoPDP stack up against the VX100?

How does the NeoPDP stack up against the VX100?Cheaper with similar performance.

Yes it can.

Can anyone find the video from Robert's 2008 display shootout????

Anyone and everyone who attended tha shootout will tell you that the difference can be seen. And not just in a pitch black room.
:confused:

The poster you are responding to used the exact words "new Pannys."

Was the Neo PDP on display at Robert's 2008 shootout?

Cheaper with similar performance.
H_Prestige, happy now? :p

I haven't said anything negative about the way you perform reviews and comparisons.

I'm just saying, if it's a small difference then it shouldn't equal out to a high premium. That is all.No offense, but that is a personal opinion. Some videophiles (not like me) will buy the best thing no matter the price, even if it is marginally better (and I wouldn't consider the 9Gs marginally better than the 8G Pioneers or 11G pannys).

" We're assuming (as D-Nice can't release the actual MLL on the 12G Panasonics) that the Panasonics have a black level around .005-.006 Foot lamberts."

Just as I said, the difference between the G8 Kuros at .004FL vs. the new Pannys will not be seen by the naked eye.

However, are you going to tell me you would be able to see the + 1-2 extra fl, because I'm going to have to call bs on that. I understand they won't be 100% equal on a measuring scale, but what counts is what you see and I highly doubt anyone will be able to see a difference.
Just as you said? If I'm not mistaken you said that you wouldn't believe it if they weren't as deep as the 8G kuros. It would be ludicrious to believe that the blacks of the G12 Pannys will not match G8 Kuro Plasmas. I mean the G11 Pannys already came super close. Cnet said, "Even in side by side comparisons it was hard to discern the difference."

So, if that is the case, then you would think that the G12 Pannys will at the very least match the G8 Kuro blacks. Though, I believe they will go just a hair deeper.You said you said that they will not be seen to the naked eye, but you actually said that it would be crazy for them not to be deeper.

Believe it or not, people can see the difference between .001-2 FL. Think about the 9G kuros that are less than .001 FL. Those you can see an easily noticeable glow on a black screen and on certain content. At CES 08, the ECC had no glow. EVERYBODY there thought it was off, but it wasn't.

H_Prestige, happy now? :p

Eh, VX probably has better blacks still. But I'm sure the new models will be close enough for me, if they are indeed in the .005-.006 range.

NeoPDP (not sure of the model number) will only be in 54" this year and that unit is wireless and 5/8" thick and a smokin picture. Release in June On these units.

Just a note: I was scrablin to look at everything and spent a lot of time with Panasonic, Samsung, and Toshiba. Most of this info is correct, but I am human ;)
"The NeoPDP technology has been utilized in two different plasma displays. A highly efficient 42-inch plasma model that uses 1/3 the energy of the company's 2007 model (the TH-42PZ750SK), and an ultra-thin 50-inch plasma display that provides 1080 lines of resolution in a unit that's only 8.8 mm thick."
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Portable_Blu-ray_Players/CES_2009/3-D/Panasonic/Industry_Trends/Blu-ray_Players/News_From_CES_2009:_Panasonic_Focused_on_High-Def/2387

Man, I bummed.
I thought the two highest level (series) would be all Neo this yr.
The fact that the one & only fifty will be an ultra-slim will mean it will come in at an ultra-price.

More info:
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&itemId=322747&modelNo=Content01072009125323585&surfModel=Content01072009125323585

Did posts #517-520 really need to be posted in a row? Couldn't the point have been served by just one post?

" We're assuming (as D-Nice can't release the actual MLL on the 12G Panasonics) that the Panasonics have a black level around .005-.006 Foot lamberts."

Just as I said, the difference between the G8 Kuros at .004FL vs. the new Pannys will not be seen by the naked eye.

However, are you going to tell me you would be able to see the + 1-2 extra fl, because I'm going to have to call bs on that. I understand they won't be 100% equal on a measuring scale, but what counts is what you see and I highly doubt anyone will be able to see a difference.
With all due respect, I am not at any where near the knowledge level of DNice or some of the other extremely helpful individuals who help those of us who own a plasma panel get the most out of them. As someone who recently had a Panny 800Z and a Pioneer 5020 in his own home I can tell without doing any measurements that the difference in these two panels and their black levels is easy to see to the naked eye. I have no doubt that if you had the opportunity to compare the TVs side-by-side as some of us had you could tell the difference. For most of us as you pointed out, its not all about measurements but finding the panel that offers the best picture. Personally I hope the new Panny's measure up to the Pioneer 8Gs in regards to blacks so I can replace a XBR4 upstairs and get a far better picture at a very competitive price.

Man, I bummed.
I thought the two highest level (series) would be all Neo this yr.
The fact that the one & only fifty will be an ultra-slim will mean it will come in at an ultra-price.

More info:
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&itemId=322747&modelNo=Content01072009125323585&surfModel=Content01072009125323585

Everything is Neo except the X series. That pr is talking about some prototype models.

emgesp,

You need to realize that you are coming at this black level thing from a different angle than many of us here on AVS. Since digital displays first came out they were lacking in black levels enormously. Each year many of us have wanted more and more and what we really expect is perfection. So when something looks exactly the same to an average joe or even a light enthusiast, the difference is obvious to us who spend their time on these boards as a hobby and want more and more each year.

Whether you agree isn't the point, but do realize your idea of what's good/acceptable is probably probably going to differ from those of us who are obsessed over black level perfection.

With all due respect, I am not at any where near the knowledge level of DNice or some of the other extremely helpful individuals who help those of us who own a plasma panel get the most out of them. As someone who recently had a Panny 800Z and a Pioneer 5020 in his own home I can tell without doing any measurements that the difference in these two panels and their black levels is easy to see to the naked eye. I have no doubt that if you had the opportunity to compare the TVs side-by-side as some of us had you could tell the difference. For most of us as you pointed out, its not all about measurements but finding the panel that offers the best picture. Personally I hope the new Panny's measure up to the Pioneer 8Gs in regards to blacks so I can replace a XBR4 upstairs and get a far better picture at a very competitive price.Thank you. This is exactly what I was trying to explain to him.

Panasonic said nearly all Plasma use Neo PDP, But I think that's just PR thing, Neo PDP means '5 Lumen Tech" :) only 54Z1 is using Neo PDP.

not like LED Backlight LCD Production cost is still higher than CCFL, Neo PDP Production cost is actually lower than current PDP model. :)

Panasonics look good as always and had a very nice set up at CES. There are 4 series. The 46" will still be in and a 54" will be added.

X series (release in March)

TC-P37X1
TC-P42X1


S-Series (release in June)

TC-P32S1
TC-P37S1
TC-P46S1
TC-P50S1
TC-P54S1

G Series (release in June)

TC-P32G10
TC-P37G10
TC-P46G10
TC-P50G10
TC-P54G10

V Series (release in June)

TC-P50V10
TC-P54V10
TC-P58V10
TC-P65V10

NeoPDP (not sure of the model number) will only be in 54" this year and that unit is wireless and 5/8" thick and a smokin picture. Release for this unit is in June.

Panasonic said nearly all Plasma use Neo PDP, But I think that's just PR thing, Neo PDP means '5 Lumen Tech" :) only 54V1 is using Neo PDP.

not like LED Backlight LCD Production cost is still higher than CCFL, Neo PDP Production cost is actually lower than current PDP model. :)ALL models in the S-Z series are using "Neo" PDP modules.

Does anyone know if Panasonic has the any of the neo-pdp sets on display at CES, or was it just an announcement? I haven't seen any "impressions" of these TVs in the write-ups I have read.

Thank you. This is exactly what I was trying to explain to him.

The 5020 is a G9 Kuro. I was talking about G8 Kuro Plasmas.

D-Nice: do you think that you could visibly discern more flicker on a 48Hz playback Panasonic versus less flicker on a 72Hz playback Pioneer?

Wait, D-nice which model is a G8 Kuro? I'm talking about the 5080 Kuro. Is that G8?

Isn't a 5020 a G9 model? If so then why did you tell me you have a G8 Kuro and G11 Panny comparison in your signature?

Maybe you made a mistake, because both of your reviews are G9 Pioneers.

You guys keep trying to side track me.

All I'm saying is that the Panasonic Neo PDP black levels will at the very least equal Pioneer's 5080 display. I never said it will equal a 5020.

Though, what I'm hearing from you guys is that the new Panny's black levels will not even match up to G8 Pioneers and that there will be an obvious difference between the two. I still call BS. I wouldn't doubt it's the case with the G9 Pioneers, but come on you really believe that the G8 black levels will still be obviously superior to the new Panny's by the naked eye?

Cheaper with similar performance.

D-Nice, I really don't want to wait until September for a Neo- 65", so if you could buy a 65 11Uk for say $5,500 VS a VX 100 for say $8,000 which would you buy. On a % scale, how much better is the VX100 VS the 11UK, overall Blacks, video processing, picture, etc. Thanks

in a ces full of gimmicky crap (quirky panel designs, completely useless 240 hz and a plethora of internet connectivity come to mind), looking at the spec sheet panasonic has appeared to improve their pq in a number of basic but important areas.

So lets assume the black level will fall just short of the 8g kuro. I think some of you on here must never have seen an 8g, because its black level performance is fantastic, regardless of its date of entry on the market. So here we have these new panasonic displays with excellent blacks without the viewing-angle-killing shenanigans of led lcd, and people are complaining?

I think people are forgetting that panasonic always strives to offer excellent pq while retaining prices to compete with mainline panel manufactuers. This does not mean surpassing the high-end product on the market (pioneer) which is not the area where they are focusing on. They must compete on price with other companies that are their natural competitors, and to reduce prices they must find efficiencies and in turn sell in high volumes. In the best case scenario this translates to excellent, but not the absolute best pq. And from what i have seen that is what they have done for the past few years and will continue to do with these neopdps.

All in all, can't wait to see these sets in action.

+1000

If you can't see a big difference then there isn't one??? If you can see a small difference (not a big difference), there still is a difference, and it is noticeable. Measurements can't lie when you have solid numbers favoring one display. That shows that there is a difference that is visible if you can see reasonably well.

Key point: Numbers translate into picture quality.

Really? This completely reminds me of the days (not too long ago) when amplifier manufacturers competed on Total Harmonic Distortion numbers. One amp would measure .004 THD and the other would be .001. Well, that second one is like 4 times BETTER than the first one, right? You should go spend an extra $1000 on it, right? You gotta get the best. Except of course that no human being (or cat for that matter) could actually hear the difference between the two.

I am NOT saying that no human being alive cannot see the difference between the current Panasonics and the Kuros. But what I am saying is that it is rapidly getting to the point where perceived black levels are so close that unless you are viewing in very low light or dark rooms and really looking, you probably won't be able to tell (or care) about black level differences. Are we there yet? For some of us we are. For others like D-Nice, we are not. Nothing wrong with that.

A friend of mine just spent $2000 on speaker wire. He swears he can hear the difference. I think a coat hanger sounds just as good. More importantly, he is enjoying his system. Which at the end of the day, is all that really matters. Each of us needs to see the sets in person and make our own judgement about black levels and the tradeoff of cost vs that extra .004 of darkness.

Panasonics look good as always and had a very nice set up at CES. There are 4 series. The 46" will still be in and a 54" will be added.

X series (release in March)

TC-P37X1
TC-P42X1


S-Series (release in June)

TC-P32S1
TC-P37S1
TC-P46S1
TC-P50S1
TC-P54S1

G Series (release in June)

TC-P32G10
TC-P37G10
TC-P46G10
TC-P50G10
TC-P54G10

V Series (release in June)

TC-P50V10
TC-P54V10
TC-P58V10
TC-P65V10

NeoPDP (not sure of the model number) will only be in 54" this year and that unit is wireless and 5/8" thick and a smokin picture. Release for this unit is in June.

Wasn't there supposed to be a 65" model in two of the series? You just show the V series 65 inch model here.

Wait, D-nice which model is a G8 Kuro? I'm talking about the 5080 Kuro. Is that G8?

Isn't a 5020 a G9 model? If so then why did you tell me you have a G8 Kuro and G11 Panny comparison in your signature?

Maybe you made a mistake, because both of your reviews are G9 Pioneers.The 5080 is a G8, but in his reviews, D-Nice compares the 6020 or 111 (depending on review) to the PRO-1150 (8G. Same black levels as 5080) and the PZ800U.

You guys keep trying to side track me.

All I'm saying is that the Panasonic Neo PDP black levels will at the very least equal Pioneer's 5080 display. I never said it will equal a 5020.

Though, what I'm hearing from you guys is that the new Panny's black levels will not even match up to G8 Pioneers and that there will be an obvious difference between the two. I still call BS. I wouldn't doubt it's the case with the G9 Pioneers, but come on you really believe that the G8 black levels will still be obviously superior to the new Panny's by the naked eye?There won't be much of an obvious difference, but there probably will be a difference if you look close enough. I'd usually trust the guy with insider sources that is one of the few who has actually seen the official numbers, IMO.

Really? This completely reminds me of the days (not too long ago) when amplifier manufacturers competed on Total Harmonic Distortion numbers. One amp would measure .004 THD and the other would be .001. Well, that second one is like 4 times BETTER than the first one, right? You should go spend an extra $1000 on it, right? You gotta get the best. Except of course that no human being (or cat for that matter) could actually hear the difference between the two.

I am NOT saying that no human being alive cannot see the difference between the current Panasonics and the Kuros. But what I am saying is that it is rapidly getting to the point where perceived black levels are so close that unless you are viewing in very low light or dark rooms and really looking, you probably won't be able to tell (or care) about black level differences. Are we there yet? For some of us we are. For others like D-Nice, we are not. Nothing wrong with that.

A friend of mine just spent $2000 on speaker wire. He swears he can hear the difference. I think a coat hanger sounds just as good. More importantly, he is enjoying his system. Which at the end of the day, is all that really matters. Each of us needs to see the sets in person and make our own judgement about black levels and the tradeoff of cost vs that extra .004 of darkness.

Well you made sense of what I was trying to say. That they are so close that it's a moot point throwing numbers around.

No big deal, but I own a 4280 (8g Kuro) and I used to own an Elite Pro-150FD
(8G Elite Kuro). The black levels and that are great, but I think what really makes
the Pioneers shine is their ansi contrast ratio. The new panasonics are touted
to be plenty brighter and appear to approach 8g blacks. Now, considering those
2 points, I am kinda excited on how the ansi contrast ratio might be on these
panels. Further, part of the niceties of better blacks is more definition to the
actual content. If the ansi CR approaches or even exceeds 8g panels, then
these panels will be absolutely fabulous. Imagine, brighter more defined content
in contrast with pretty deep blacks... now that's something I'd look forward to.

In any case, I've seen the Sharp XS1 panel and for those who are balking at
thin panels and calling them 'gimmicky', well, I gotta say you're absolutely
wrong in my books! It's hard to explain until its in front of you, but for some
reason, knowing your panel is thin seems to have a weird psychological effect
on how you view it. I wouldn't believe what I just said until I saw the TV in
person. Get ready to be amazed is all I gotta say.

Colour me excited to see these new panels. I'm still waiting to get more details
on the 10g Pioneers, but Panasonic has definitely got my attention. :)

ALL models in the S-Z series are using "Neo" PDP modules.

But will all of those models benefit from the Neo tech in them? Will the power consumption be lower for all sizes in all the models that carry them? Will they be brighter in all the models that carry them? I don't really care about the extra features in the step up models so the S series will work just fine (it is still coming in March like the Panny release stated right?)

Chris from CP seems to think differently from everything that has been stated so far about these Neo PDP sets from Panasonic.

Chris from CP seems to think differently from everything that has been stated so far about these Neo PDP sets from Panasonic.

Chris is going by what he heard on the showfloor and it is very, very common for that to differ from the official company line due to poor communication and innaccuracy on the part of the reps and just general corporate disorganization.

That said, the Pansonic press releases have been notoriously buggy in the past, but I suspect that the information on the panasonic.net website is pretty darn accurate.

The 8.8 mm 50" display at the Press Conference was a prototype using Panasonic's future technology "NEO PDP eco" which is different from the 2009 "NEO PDP" technology. The "NEO PDP eco" will combine the "NEO PDP" and Pioneer "KURO" technology.

http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/20090108/ces03_02.jpg

http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/20090108/ces03_04.jpg

http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/20090108/pana1_08.jpg

No big deal, but I own a 4280 (8g Kuro) and I used to own an Elite Pro-150FD
(8G Elite Kuro). The black levels and that are great, but I think what really makes
the Pioneers shine is their ansi contrast ratio. The new panasonics are touted
to be plenty brighter and appear to approach 8g blacks. Now, considering those
2 points, I am kinda excited on how the ansi contrast ratio might be on these
panels. Further, part of the niceties of better blacks is more definition to the
actual content. If the ansi CR approaches or even exceeds 8g panels, then
these panels will be absolutely fabulous. Imagine, brighter more defined content
in contrast with pretty deep blacks... now that's something I'd look forward to.

In any case, I've seen the Sharp XS1 panel and for those who are balking at
thin panels and calling them 'gimmicky', well, I gotta say you're absolutely
wrong in my books! It's hard to explain until its in front of you, but for some
reason, knowing your panel is thin seems to have a weird psychological effect
on how you view it. I wouldn't believe what I just said until I saw the TV in
person. Get ready to be amazed is all I gotta say.

Colour me excited to see these new panels. I'm still waiting to get more details
on the 10g Pioneers, but Panasonic has definitely got my attention. :)

That's what I want to know as well (ansi contrast).

Back to the 2009 Z1. Not sure if the picture has been posted here but here's a glimse:

http://plusd.itmedia.co.jp/lifestyle/articles/0901/08/news075.html

Not sure why we've got two threads on this subject, but anyway I posted this in the other 12G thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1105773). Given some of the discussion perhaps it will be useful.

Since Panasonic hasn't created a feature comparison, I pulled one together from their web site (http://panasonic.net/avc/viera/index.html) and press release (http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/01-07-2009/0004950944&EDATE=). All models have:

VIERA Image Viewer and VIERA Link
AR filter
Game mode
PC input
100,000 hour panel life
600Hz sub-field drive

Following are the features not common to all models.
Z V G S X
RF remote x
Wireless HD x
1" thick x
Swivel base x
BBE ViVA HD3D Sound x x
24P x x
VIERA CAST x x x
Deep Color / x.v.Color x x x
THX x x x ?
NeoPDP x x x x
1080p x x x x
720p x
Digital Cinema Color x
40,000:1 contrast x x x x
30,000:1 contrast x
HDMI inputs 4 4 3 3 3
65" Aug Aug
58" Aug Aug
54" Sum Jun May May
50" Jun Mar Mar Feb
46" Mar Mar
42" Mar Mar Feb
'Sum' means summer. The press release and web site are inconsistent on whether the S1 series has THX.

The "NEO PDP eco" will combine the "NEO PDP" and Pioneer "KURO" technology.

http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/20090108/pana1_08.jpg

Wow, I did not expect to see them reveal the fruits of their alliance with Pioneer in such a blatant fashion.

As good as this year's models look, the Neo PDP ECOs will be that much better and (if this marketing material can believed) should deliver on the prior "promise" of Kuro Technology at Panasonic price.

Wait, D-nice which model is a G8 Kuro? I'm talking about the 5080 Kuro. Is that G8?

Isn't a 5020 a G9 model? If so then why did you tell me you have a G8 Kuro and G11 Panny comparison in your signature?

Maybe you made a mistake, because both of your reviews are G9 Pioneers.Or maybe you are clueless on Pioneer model numbers....

The PRO-1150HD IS A G8 Kuro
The PRO-111FD IS A G9 Kuro
The 50PZ800u IS A G11 Panasonic.

Is that clear enough for you????

Any news on better Picture controls with these new series?

so these neo-pdp's will not have the 48hz flicker problems that I have heard some speaking of correct?

so these neo-pdp's will not have the 48hz flicker problems that I have heard some speaking of correct?

Here is a link to where I posted the info on that.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15506452&highlight=#post15506452

So, when are the Neo PDP Eco's coming out (the ones from the pictures above)?

2010 or?

Any Plasma set that claims to have 24p Cinematic playback and then refreshes at 48 instead of 72 is just a fraud.


That is a pretty uneducated statement.
Is a 96Hz TV also a fraud? Is it 72Hz or bust as far as you're concerned?

No it doesn't have to be 72 but 72 is fast enough to avoid flicker--I don't believe that 48 is fast enough--if it was wopuldn't you see computer monitors refreshing at 48?!

Of course you don't--why--because 48 is TOO SLOW!!!

Now 96 or 120 or 240 are fine--they're perfect multiples of 24 and are fast enough.

I think 72 costs more than 48 and Panasonic is cutting corners at the expense of cost.

Or maybe you are clueless on Pioneer model numbers....

The PRO-1150HD IS A G8 Kuro
The PRO-111FD IS A G9 Kuro
The 50PZ800u IS A G11 Panasonic.

Is that clear enough for you????

You don't have to be so arrogant about it. Also, I find that rhetorical question highly offensive to my intelligence.

Like I said before, you never compared the G8 Kuro blacks to a G11 Panny in your reviews. Yes, you compared both to the 6020, but I did not read any comparison between the 1150 and PZ800U. So, what you told me was a lie. The only thing I read was how superior the 6020's black levels are compared to the two. I'm not trying to compare a G9 Pioneer to a G11 Panny.

Again, the difference between the blacks levels of a G8 Pioneer and a G11 Panny are not night and day. While there is a difference, it's not dramatic in a way that it hits you in the face. The G12 Panny blacks will only be better and bridge the gap between the two.

You go play with your calculator and numbers, as I will be enjoying HD without the anal point of view.

Now now....lets get along children.

Back on to topic though, I was sort of hoping the V series would be available in a 46 inch size as well, but the 50 is the minimum size. Ahh well, looks like the 46 incher in the G series is for me. As long as the price is right. Any idea to when pricing might be released?

No it doesn't have to be 72 but 72 is fast enough to avoid flicker--I don't believe that 48 is fast enough--if it was wopuldn't you see computer monitors refreshing at 48?!

Of course you don't--why--because 48 is TOO SLOW!!!

Now 96 or 120 or 240 are fine--they're perfect multiples of 24 and are fast enough.

I think 72 costs more than 48 and Panasonic is cutting corners at the expense of cost.

It's different for CRT monitors. I see bad flicker on a PC CRT monitor at 60 Hz. The 48 Hz flicker is probably a design flaw, not just due to the refresh rate.

How is it different?

I've heard that 72 is way superior to 48 when it comes to flicker.

Many movie theaters use 48 because 24 would be absolutely ridiculous but most people are aware of flicker in a theater at 48.

when you get to about 60 it is less noticeable and even less so at 72.

Most people with computer monitors aren't aware of an flicker with a refresh rate of 80.

Am I wrong or is indeed flicker discernable at 48 and not at 72?

Any news on better Picture controls with these new series?

That'd be nice as well. Panasonic has rather basic picture controls like the Pioneer xx20 series.

How is it different?

I've heard that 72 is way superior to 48 when it comes to flicker.

How are you comparing 72 to 48 with a flat panel TV? I don't know any that will let you do both. You certainly can't compare a Pioneer at 72 Hz to a Panasonic at 48Hz.

A CRT monitor at 60 Hz has bad flicker - I used to have to set my PC monitor to 85Hz. An LCD has no flicker at 60Hz.

How is it different?

I've heard that 72 is way superior to 48 when it comes to flicker.

Many movie theaters use 48 because 24 would be absolutely ridiculous but most people are aware of flicker in a theater at 48.

when you get to about 60 it is less noticeable and even less so at 72.

Most people with computer monitors aren't aware of an flicker with a refresh rate of 80.

Am I wrong or is indeed flicker discernable at 48 and not at 72?

Flicker susceptibility is a very individual thing. Many people don't notice it at all. Correctly implemented, 48 should not flicker or judder (much). Hitachi uses a 48 refresh rate and the review at Sound & Vision found that it did not flicker or judder like the smaller Pannys.

How is it different?
Duty Cyle in the answer to that question. With regards to flicker and displays think of duty cycle essentially meaning what percentage of each frame period is black.

For CRT each frame is displayed for about 10% of the frame period meaning 90% of the time is black

For Plasma each frame is displayed for about 35-50% of the frame period meaning 50-65% of the time is black.

Also, CRT scan line by line while Plasma strobe all pixels at once (or in the case of Pioneer they strobe sections of the screen at once)

xrox: So all things being equal would the same Panasonic Plasma have any advantage at refreshing at 48 or 72?

If indeed there is not discernable flicker at 48 then I guess it wouldn't matter if it refrshed at 72 or 96 or any higher multiple?

Everyone would agree that there would be flicker at 24--movie theaters go at least 48.

How does LCD differ? What advantage is there to 120 refresh or 240 refresh with LCD?

Why did Panasonic get it wrong last year?

I wonder if there are any perceptable differences regarding flicker among all the different sets of different manufacturers that use 48?

Why did Pioneer choose to make its sets capable of refreshing at 72? Did they see any advantage of 72 refresh over 48 refresh?

D-Nice: Do you know why Pioneer chose 72?

Anyone else out there feel free to chime in.

xrox: So all things being equal would the same Panasonic Plasma have any advantage at refreshing at 48 or 72? The main advantage is time. At 48Hz the plasma has more time to do PWM meaning more grayscale or more brightness or anything that takes more time.

If indeed there is not discernable flicker at 48 then I guess it wouldn't matter if it refrshed at 72 or 96 or any higher multiple? Everyone would agree that there would be flicker at 24--movie theaters go at least 48. How does LCD differ? What advantage is there to 120 refresh or 240 refresh with LCD?If the duty cycle is 100% meaning no black like an LCD, then you can refresh at any number without flicker (even 24 or less).But this causes blur. Low duty cycle is why PDP and CRT have less blur. 120Hz and 240Hz try to reduce blur by reducing how long each frame period is.


Why did Panasonic get it wrong last year?Unknown, I would speculate they had too short a duty cycle for such a low frame rate. The fix woul be to spread the light generation across the 48Hz time period so the duty cycle would become longer.

Why did Pioneer choose to make its sets capable of refreshing at 72? Did they see any advantage of 72 refresh over 48 refresh?Probably to avoid flicker while still reducing judder. Pioneer also had the highest efficiency and shortest discharge delay making them more capable of doing 72Hz.

So, when are the Neo PDP Eco's coming out (the ones from the pictures above)?

2010 or?

See a couple page back, post #528 from Cleveland: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15502109&postcount=528

More Feature Comparison from spa: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15497673&postcount=130

Like I said before, you never compared the G8 Kuro blacks to a G11 Panny in your reviews. Yes, you compared both to the 6020, but I did not read any comparison between the 1150 and PZ800U. So, what you told me was a lie. The only thing I read was how superior the 6020's black levels are compared to the two. I'm not trying to compare a G9 Pioneer to a G11 Panny.Read the review. I specifically talked about the difference in black levels between the 1150HD and 800u.

Again, the difference between the blacks levels of a G8 Pioneer and a G11 Panny are not night and day.Exactly what do you have to provide (from your own experience) to back up your claim?

While there is a difference, it's not dramatic in a way that it hits you in the face.Spoken like someone who has never seen the two side by side in there home.

The G12 Panny blacks will only be better and bridge the gap between the two.Your right. The G11s will bridge the gap between the G11 Panasonics, 550/650/760 Samsungs and 8G Pioneers. Nothing more and nothing less.

You go play with your calculator and numbers, as I will be enjoying HD without the anal point of view.Nah, I'll go watch my 111FD with 53fL of light output (post calibration) :)

You don't have to be so arrogant about it. Also, I find that rhetorical question highly offensive to my intelligence.

Like I said before, you never compared the G8 Kuro blacks to a G11 Panny in your reviews. Yes, you compared both to the 6020, but I did not read any comparison between the 1150 and PZ800U. So, what you told me was a lie. The only thing I read was how superior the 6020's black levels are compared to the two. I'm not trying to compare a G9 Pioneer to a G11 Panny.

Again, the difference between the blacks levels of a G8 Pioneer and a G11 Panny are not night and day. While there is a difference, it's not dramatic in a way that it hits you in the face. The G12 Panny blacks will only be better and bridge the gap between the two.

You go play with your calculator and numbers, as I will be enjoying HD without the anal point of view.In the 6020 review he compares the black levels when he saysBlack levels on the 6020FD made the
PZ800u’s blacks (measured @ 0.008fL) look like a dark shade of gray. The top and bottom bars
literally disappeared into the 6020FD’s screen. In comparison, I could always make out the bars
on the 50PZ800u, but their luminance was subtle and much improved over previous Panasonic
generations.

Black bars again
disappeared into the background of the 6020FDs panel, unlike the very, very slight luminance on
the 1150HD (measured @ 0.004fL).

If you read it carefully, it implies that you could pretty easily tell the difference of the 1150 compared to the PZ800U. He had them side by side for who knows how long. I think he knows what the black level on each can do.

Edit: In addition (at the time of the review before controlcal gave us grayscale calibration on the 50/6020), the numbers for the pz800u are better for grayscale and color points, but the 6020 just has this "creamy smoothness". Just because you think he does, doesn't mean that he always agrees with the numbers.

Edit 2: Below, agreed. In that shootout, a 5010 (8G) was compared to a PRO-111FD, A 50PZ800U, an A550 plasma, an LG PGG60, and a toshiba LCD. The consensus was basically PRO-111FD, 5010, A550 (some people had a550 and 5010 switched), PZ800U, PG60, and then the LCD.

Edit 3: If you want to watch it, watch it HERE (http://www.mogulus.com/soso), even though the quality isn't the greatest, it is there.

In the 6020 review he compares the black levels when he says

If you read it carefully, it implies that you could pretty easily tell the difference of the 1150 compared to the PZ800U. He had them side by side for who knows how long. I think he knows what the black level on each can do.Since he loves to only rely on what he sees online instead of his own eyes, where is the video from Roberts display shootout? It will give him all of the proof he needs to see there is a visible difference.

If I were to test two pencils, say one had slightly been sharpened more than the other, and if I compared them side by side I can come to a conclusion that one has been used more than the other just by using the naked eye. I don't have to use some kind of measuring device to come to this conclusion.
Yeah but if you test pencil brand A and pencil brand B and see that A writes sharper than B, then it must be so, right? Well, like you say - not if one was just sharpened more than the other one right before the test started. Comparing two TVs is a very complex business and depends greatly on the settings used and the viewing area. Just because one person can't see much of a difference between two TVs with a specific set of settings in a specific environment, doesn't mean that the TVs look the same in all environments and with every different combination of settings.

Look--most people couldn't tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi--I could always tell the difference.

The truth of the matter is that Pioneer blacks aren't perfect--everyone else plain out SUCKS!

And people with REAL eyes can see it--the ones that don't can't tell Coke from Pepsi--they deserve inferiority!

It seems to me that Panasonic just wants to be the second best to Pioneer--as long as they're better than everyone else out there they're not going to kill themselves trying to make up the gap.

You won't see Panasonic really get serious about performance unless you see an LCD like the Sony XBR8 get cheap--that's when they'll care.

I could care less about the styling or how thin the Panasonics are--and no they don't have to be as great as Pioneers--they're a lower cost choice.

If they really are FLICKER free and if they're BRIGHTER at a lower cost--that makes up for deficiencies in the blacks if you plan to spend less.

I think that they are sensitive to being put out of buisness by LCDs--that can happen even with LCDs being INFERIOR.

But the thinness thing reminds me of a similiar thing that happned with watches.

Remember super thin watches?

That fad died about like super thin neck ties.

What is disturbing to me isn't all the future bells and whistles or performance or lack of performance--what is disturbing to me is NO EFFORT at making a reasonably priced 65 or 70-inch Plasma.

What that tells me is that maybe it costs REAL money to produce large plasmas and as long as LCD tops out at 55-inches for the best Sony XBR8 and it costs out the wazoo--the manufacturers think--why not make alot of MARGIN on 60 or 65-inch Plasmas?

That to me is short sighted. LCD won't always be expensive in larger sizes--though to be sure the best quality LCD will be expensive--the point is--don't allow LCD any chance at getting anyone to even consider large size LCD.

The cheap crowd who wanted size up til now would buy rear projection CRT or SXRD or D'ILA or large DLP.

Well other than Mitsubishi--all of that is being shut down.

Those people don't want to go from 65-inch cheap rear projection to out the wazoo for large plasma or LCD.

Plasma manufacturers might get away with it for one year--I think that next year they really do need to consider larger sizes.

70-inches might be the largest you could go in Plasma without getting to a ridiculous price point.

I hope we see it next year from Panasonic and Pioneer--but more than that I hope that the lower priced plasma manufacturers--such as Vizio--will produce larger lowerpriced plasma for all those joe six packs who are coming from rear projection.

Get them started on plasma--even a cheap one without the greatest performance and they might stay with plasma.

If they migrate to LCD--regardless of LCD being inferior--they will be brand and technology loyal like many of the sad souls that we hear from all the time here at the forum.

Look--most people couldn't tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi--I could always tell the difference.

The truth of the matter is that Pioneer blacks aren't perfect--everyone else plain out SUCKS!

And people with REAL eyes can see it--the ones that don't can't tell Coke from Pepsi--they deserve inferiority!

It seems to me that Panasonic just wants to be the second best to Pioneer--as long as they're better than everyone else out there they're not going to kill themselves trying to make up the gap.

You won't see Panasonic really get serious about performance unless you see an LCD like the Sony XBR8 get cheap--that's when they'll care.

I could care less about the styling or how thin the Panasonics are--and no they don't have to be as great as Pioneers--they're a lower cost choice.

If they really are FLICKER free and if they're BRIGHTER at a lower cost--that makes up for deficiencies in the blacks if you plan to spend less.

I think that they are sensitive to being put out of buisness by LCDs--that can happen even with LCDs being INFERIOR.

But the thinness thing reminds me of a similiar thing that happned with watches.

Remember super thin watches?

That fad died about like super thin neck ties.

What is disturbing to me isn't all the future bells and whistles or performance or lack of performance--what is disturbing to me is NO EFFORT at making a reasonably priced 65 or 70-inch Plasma.

What that tells me is that maybe it costs REAL money to produce large plasmas and as long as LCD tops out at 55-inches for the best Sony XBR8 and it costs out the wazoo--the manufacturers think--why not make alot of MARGIN on 60 or 65-inch Plasmas?

That to me is short sighted. LCD won't always be expensive in larger sizes--though to be sure the best quality LCD will be expensive--the point is--don't allow LCD any chance at getting anyone to even consider large size LCD.

The cheap crowd who wanted size up til now would buy rear projection CRT or SXRD or D'ILA or large DLP.

Well other than Mitsubishi--all of that is being shut down.

Those people don't want to go from 65-inch cheap rear projection to out the wazoo for large plasma or LCD.

Plasma manufacturers might get away with it for one year--I think that next year they really do need to consider larger sizes.

70-inches might be the largest you could go in Plasma without getting to a ridiculous price point.

I hope we see it next year from Panasonic and Pioneer--but more than that I hope that the lower priced plasma manufacturers--such as Vizio--will produce larger lowerpriced plasma for all those joe six packs who are coming from rear projection.

Get them started on plasma--even a cheap one without the greatest performance and they might stay with plasma.

If they migrate to LCD--regardless of LCD being inferior--they will be brand and technology loyal like many of the sad souls that we hear from all the time here at the forum.


Amen. 46", next 54"... lovely...how about throwing a knock out punch on the 58+ crowd before larger LCD's drop below 3K. Beta always had a better picture than VHS.

Though I think the window for bringing Joe Six Pack RP on-board has already been missed. Tell me you don't know a few mullets that have already thrown down on a mediocre (at best) Front Projector and economy screen. LOL sorry to digress OT but Artwoods "Joe Six Pack RP/DLP" busted me up.

Look--most people couldn't tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi--I could always tell the difference.

The truth of the matter is that Pioneer blacks aren't perfect--everyone else plain out SUCKS!

And people with REAL eyes can see it--the ones that don't can't tell Coke from Pepsi--they deserve inferiority!



Ahhh...where to start?!

Its nice to live in a real simple world isn't? No shades of gray, so to speak!

Here's a shocking thought for you...what if people COULD see the difference in black levels between the sets and yet...thought they were close enough?!

Or...that they were good eoungh because other factors (yes there other factors to consider when buying a TV!) matter more in the aggregate then just black level? Shocking I know! Things like price, size, brightness, power consumption, etc...


If they really are FLICKER free and if they're BRIGHTER at a lower cost--that makes up for deficiencies in the blacks if you plan to spend less.


Hmmm...interesting! Seems like you just said the exact same thing I was saying and contradicted yourself in the process. Neat. You say above that they are inferior...but in fact they may be SUPERIOR to Pioneer because they deliver a level of performance at a price point that Pioneer can't touch. Its just a matter of what you are trying to measure. Absolute performance in a vacum (A la the black level obsessives of the world) or performance per dollar. Performance per dollar, Panasonic is clearly superior.


But the thinness thing reminds me of a similiar thing that happned with watches.

Remember super thin watches?

That fad died about like super thin neck ties.


Seriously?! It boggles that you are comparing a fashion trend with actual performance and installation benefits. Yes, there is decreasing utility in thinness, but there is obviously a very real world benefit to having a 1" thick TV vs a 2 foot thick TV. How much is that worth? Who knows? But thats what markets are for, to determine design winners and price point winners.


What is disturbing to me isn't all the future bells and whistles or performance or lack of performance--what is disturbing to me is NO EFFORT at making a reasonably priced 65 or 70-inch Plasma.

What that tells me is that maybe it costs REAL money to produce large plasmas and as long as LCD tops out at 55-inches for the best Sony XBR8 and it costs out the wazoo--the manufacturers think--why not make alot of MARGIN on 60 or 65-inch Plasmas?


There you go again, contradicting yourself in the same paragraph! Kind of amusing, but take a look at what you said. Do you really honestly believe that Panasonic has not spent millions of dollars trying to get the costs down and maintain profit margins on their higher end TVs (or all their TVs for that matter)? Of course they have. You then go on to answer your own question and state that it costs REAL money to make them.

Don't you think their marketing and sales people have spent years studying the market? I'm sure they have figured out that the low end of the market is very price sensitive and the sensitivity to prices goes down as the cost and size go up. In other words, people that are willing to spend $6000 for a TV are less sensitive to whether it costs $5900 or $6900 then people willing to spend $1500 for a TV would be to a similar price difference. This is basic econmic theory.

In fact, you should be happy that Panasonic can charge more and still sell their higher end models, because otherwise they would have to make up that profit on the rest of the line. One of the reasons they can afford to compete at the low end is because they probably make a large portion of their overall profits from their larger models.


Plasma manufacturers might get away with it for one year--I think that next year they really do need to consider larger sizes.


If they can "get away with it" that is called smart business. You make your profits and compete where you can. It may indeed be the case that cheap LCDs eventually move into the 65" space and take away all Plasma sales. If so there is nothing anyone can do about it. If one technology has an inherit price advantage its going to win every time. Now, what might happen is that LCD ends up with like 95% of the market and some niche Plasma maker stays alive selling high end performance Plasmas to the other 5% of the market. Kind of like audiophiles who still pay $10,000 for record players and $50,000 for mono amplifiers.

Or it could be that there is a break through in cost efficiency and Plasma is able to hold on to the high end. Most likely from my view point is that some new technology comes along and crushes both of them eventually. Its also quite possible that LCD technology could evolve to get as good or better than Plasma. No one really knows. The important thing is not which technology, its what quality picture you get at what price point. The technology is irrelevant, unless you own stock in an LCD backlight manufacturer.

So, when are the Neo PDP Eco's coming out (the ones from the pictures above)?

2010 or?

No one knows for sure. 2010 is reasonable guess.

The Knobler: It WOULD "shock" me if "MOST" people COULD see a difference in black levels between a Panasonic Plasma and a Pioneer Plasma.

Why do I say that?

"MOST" people don't see a difference in black levels between a Panasonic Plasma--a Pioneer plasma--and LCD models that are cheap and have bad black levels!

You want to test that statement?

Go outside of any Wal-Mart or Best Buy and ask everyone who comes out the door that looked at TVs who they thought had the best black levels.

All of those "MOST" people won't tell you that a Kuro had the best black levels.

So SEE--"MOST" people really don't know!

So for "MOST" it doesn't comes down to them KNOWING that one has better blacks and saying to themselves: "Given that I KNOW that one set has better blacks and that I KNOW that another set has slightly LESS blacks that that is only one component in my purchase decision".

"MOST" people who look at sets really don't have a clue!

Go back and tell the Panasonic and LCD marketing and PR plant departments of other manufacturers that yes--I do indeed know what I am talking about--and trying to disparage me by saying that I am insulting the public's lack of buying savy is a tactic that has been used here before and simply won't work!

The tactic never has been used by people who have been here a long time and for some reason it always comes from people with post counts under 200--wonder why that is?

Some of the more intelligent of the public--ones that have posted here and fashion themselves as being knowledgeable about video even think that the better LCDs have better black levels than Kuros and have purchased accordingly.

Even if you gave them a side by side demonstration and pointed it out to them with a large pointer they'd swear that they don't see it!

My point is that given all of that--Panasonic isn't striving to come close to Pioneer in that level of performance.

It isn't all that matters when one buys a TV--but it is a more important parameter of picture quality than other factors.

Contradiction PRESUPPOSES that one is not able to walk and chew gum at the same time or that one is not capable of comprehending two separate truths at one time.

It is quite possible to hold that Pioneer has superior performance while at the same time being able to say that other factors might make a Panasonic a better value for people who would not have performance as their sole criteria in making a purchase.

What's so hard to understand about that?

And there is a difference between "performance per dollar" and "bang for the buck".

Take cars for example--you put a powerful engine into an inexpensive car--it might have alot of "bang for the buck"--it might not necessarily have more "performance per dollar" if nothing else was improved about it.

"PERFORMANCE" at least picture quality wise involves more than BLACK LEVELS and while it's true that a Panasonic set might be BRIGHTER it still doesn't have as good a signal processing as a Pioneer set has.

So I would challenge the notion that Panasonic as "better performance per dollar".

That doesn't mean that it doesn't have "better bang for the buck" or might not be a better value purchase for people who take other factors into consideration such as stying or even power consumption.

And I don't know what's so hard to understand about super thin watches.

No one would challenge the notion that there is utility to a one inch set over a two foot thick set.

I believe that people with a modicum of intelligence might be able to comprehend that maybe just maybe that there may not be a big difference between a two or three or even 4-inch panel compared to a one inch panel.

I'm not saying that there is no difference--I am saying that one could make an argument that a thinner dress watch would have advantages over a thick one--but since they are so insignificant--who cares?

And YES--the same sales tactics used to sell THIN watches stylistically are being used to try to sell thin displays.

An NO--markets don't determine design winners--they might determine what designs people want to buy or what designs they think look better--but they don't DEFINE art!

If that was the case then art auctions would define art! How ludicrous!

An NO--I'm not happy if Panasonic makes a very LARGE margin on large size panels at the expense of small panels.

Why?

Because as trends clearly indicate--Plasma technology will not win versus LCD at small sizes--but it can win at larger sizes because it simply costs MORE to manufacture LARGE LCDs and it costs MORE to manufacture SMALL Plasmas.

Plasmas over the long run aren't going to be able to hold onto the 42-inch range.

They can hold onto 50-inches and above--but more than price--in the long run they will have to significantly increase performance--not because they aren't already better than LCD--they are--but because the "MOST" people who I have spoken of before won't be able to even tell their superiority.

And please spare me about their buisness people knowing price points.

Yes it is BAD BUISNESS if you make a short term--say one year--margin if that means that long term you will lose buishness!

Haven't we already seen that in our economy?

Course ultimately with the bean counters at all electronics companies it doesn't come down to making a profit over the long term--it's can I make a killing now regardless of whether it hurts me in the long term?

So yes it is DUMB to "get away with it" and not "smart buisness" if making great margins of larger plasmas would allow LCD to get more larger size sales--they don't have to be 60 or 65-inch--even if it makes the "MOST" people choose 52-inch or 55-inch LCDs when they upgrade rather than Plasma then that is DUMB!

And what do I define as DUMB?

It doesn't only have to be from a buisness viewpoint--the last time I checked this was an enthusiast's forum.

If LCD totally took over the world and made 10 TRILLION dollars and there was no plasma sold even if it could perform better--that would be a BAD THING!

Just like it was a bad thing from a car enthusiast's point of view regardless of how many 1974 Mustang IIs were sold!

If there was one thing I would like to get people to understand here that never is by some people--it is whatever the market decides--no matter how much money they make--and EVEN no matter how many people are happy with the products that the market makes--that has nothing to do with great picture quality just like it doesn't with art!

And money made and performance are not equivalent either.

And it is POSSIBLE for all the maunfacturers that we post about here with all their buisness acumen to make DUMB CHOICES!

They can make dumb buisness choices even if viewed soley from a buisness viewpoint.

Not making larger plasmas is DUMB! Making FLICKER TVS is dumb!

And anyone who doesn't think so is...entitled to their opinion?

See I am open minded!

:eek:

dAMn Art

D-Nice--I posted those comments not knowing that the new Panasonic sets were significantly brighter--I'm glad you informed me of that--but I do think that most of what I said still holds true.

Maybe the current economy is affecting the decision to not make bigger plasmas than 60 or 65-inches.

You seem to know more than most of the bozos around here.

What are the chances that Pioneer will ever produce a plasma set larger than 60-inches?

Some time during calendar year 2010 do you think that we will see a plasma set from Pioneer or Panasonic larger than 65-inches and smaller than 80-inches?

What are the chances that Pioneer will ever produce a plasma set larger than 60-inches?High, high, high :)

Some time during calendar year 2010 do you think that we will see a plasma set from Pioneer or Panasonic larger than 65-inches and smaller than 80-inches?They're already spec'ed. The problem is the world economy. There is no reason to make such sizes if noone can afford them.

What are the chances that Pioneer will ever produce a plasma set larger than 60-inches?


High, high, high :)

They're already spec'ed. The problem is the world economy. There is no reason to make such sizes if noone can afford them.

What are the chances of a greater than 65" in 2009?

- Rich

What are the chances of a greater than 65" in 2009?

- RichNext to nill.

High, high, high :)

They're already spec'ed. The problem is the world economy. There is no reason to make such sizes if noone can afford them.

I like the first part about High, and yes they have a sale with me unless there is no difference in picture quality.

Arr who am I kidding they have a sale. :D

BIG thanks too just about everyone for straighting me out bout how many releases the "Neo line in '09" (hey that rhymes).
------------------------------------
And thanks too Steve as well for the spa feature comparison chart.

Next to nill.

Got it. I will set my sights on a 65, then.
Hopefully, Pioneer will maintain the single sheet of glass, 72Hz (or other flicker free rate).

Thanks.

- Rich

You go play with your calculator and numbers, as I will be enjoying HD without the anal point of view.
Your totally anal bout posting the Pana blks are the same as a Kuro w/o ever having see the display! :p
Enjoy "UR" anal view!

You guys are asking D-Nice questions like he's one of those Magic 8 Ball's or something.

D-nice, from now on, you can only answer with the following:

● As I see it, yes
● Ask again later
● Better not tell you now
● Cannot predict now
● Concentrate and ask again
● Don't count on it
● It is certain
● It is decidedly so
● Most likely
● My reply is no
● My sources say no
● Outlook good
● Outlook not so good
● Reply hazy, try again
● Signs point to yes
● Very doubtful
● Without a doubt
● Yes
● Yes - definitely
● You may rely on it

:D

The main advantage is time. At 48Hz the plasma has more time to do PWM meaning more grayscale or more brightness or anything that takes more time.

If the duty cycle is 100% meaning no black like an LCD, then you can refresh at any number without flicker (even 24 or less).But this causes blur. Low duty cycle is why PDP and CRT have less blur. 120Hz and 240Hz try to reduce blur by reducing how long each frame period is.


Unknown, I would speculate they had too short a duty cycle for such a low frame rate. The fix woul be to spread the light generation across the 48Hz time period so the duty cycle would become longer.

Probably to avoid flicker while still reducing judder. Pioneer also had the highest efficiency and shortest discharge delay making them more capable of doing 72Hz.
Now THIS is the type of post I come too AVS for!
Even if someone doesn't know, they say so.
Not someone who's against #'s (wonder what numbers have ever done too him?) & calculators (how can someone be against something that gives us more time; too enjoy movies even?).
------------------
Last year, that was the BIG concern for me (& others): "flicker".
Super glad that's been addressed.
--------------------------------
Thought it might take 120 Hz too get this right; glad that is not the case (hope so anyway).
Might SD playback also be improved?
Or, would that still all be on the scaler?
------------------
Yeah, I posted days ago bout the two threads.
Guess I'll just have too go check that out as well!
-----------------------------------------------
Looks like nothing BIG in the way of throwing the Panas off track from a tech standpoint.

Glad I waited!

The Knobler: It WOULD "shock" me if "MOST" people COULD see a difference in black levels between a Panasonic Plasma and a Pioneer Plasma.

Why do I say that?

"MOST" people don't see a difference in black levels between a Panasonic Plasma--a Pioneer plasma--and LCD models that are cheap and have bad black levels!

You want to test that statement?

Go outside of any Wal-Mart or Best Buy and ask everyone who comes out the door that looked at TVs who they thought had the best black levels.

All of those "MOST" people won't tell you that a Kuro had the best black levels.

So SEE--"MOST" people really don't know!

So for "MOST" it doesn't comes down to them KNOWING that one has better blacks and saying to themselves: "Given that I KNOW that one set has better blacks and that I KNOW that another set has slightly LESS blacks that that is only one component in my purchase decision".

"MOST" people who look at sets really don't have a clue!

Go back and tell the Panasonic and LCD marketing and PR plant departments of other manufacturers that yes--I do indeed know what I am talking about--and trying to disparage me by saying that I am insulting the public's lack of buying savy is a tactic that has been used here before and simply won't work!

The tactic never has been used by people who have been here a long time and for some reason it always comes from people with post counts under 200--wonder why that is?

Some of the more intelligent of the public--ones that have posted here and fashion themselves as being knowledgeable about video even think that the better LCDs have better black levels than Kuros and have purchased accordingly.

Even if you gave them a side by side demonstration and pointed it out to them with a large pointer they'd swear that they don't see it!

My point is that given all of that--Panasonic isn't striving to come close to Pioneer in that level of performance.

It isn't all that matters when one buys a TV--but it is a more important parameter of picture quality than other factors.

Contradiction PRESUPPOSES that one is not able to walk and chew gum at the same time or that one is not capable of comprehending two separate truths at one time.

It is quite possible to hold that Pioneer has superior performance while at the same time being able to say that other factors might make a Panasonic a better value for people who would not have performance as their sole criteria in making a purchase.

What's so hard to understand about that?

And there is a difference between "performance per dollar" and "bang for the buck".

Take cars for example--you put a powerful engine into an inexpensive car--it might have alot of "bang for the buck"--it might not necessarily have more "performance per dollar" if nothing else was improved about it.

"PERFORMANCE" at least picture quality wise involves more than BLACK LEVELS and while it's true that a Panasonic set might be BRIGHTER it still doesn't have as good a signal processing as a Pioneer set has.

So I would challenge the notion that Panasonic as "better performance per dollar".

That doesn't mean that it doesn't have "better bang for the buck" or might not be a better value purchase for people who take other factors into consideration such as stying or even power consumption.

And I don't know what's so hard to understand about super thin watches.

No one would challenge the notion that there is utility to a one inch set over a two foot thick set.

I believe that people with a modicum of intelligence might be able to comprehend that maybe just maybe that there may not be a big difference between a two or three or even 4-inch panel compared to a one inch panel.

I'm not saying that there is no difference--I am saying that one could make an argument that a thinner dress watch would have advantages over a thick one--but since they are so insignificant--who cares?

And YES--the same sales tactics used to sell THIN watches stylistically are being used to try to sell thin displays.

An NO--markets don't determine design winners--they might determine what designs people want to buy or what designs they think look better--but they don't DEFINE art!

If that was the case then art auctions would define art! How ludicrous!

An NO--I'm not happy if Panasonic makes a very LARGE margin on large size panels at the expense of small panels.

Why?

Because as trends clearly indicate--Plasma technology will not win versus LCD at small sizes--but it can win at larger sizes because it simply costs MORE to manufacture LARGE LCDs and it costs MORE to manufacture SMALL Plasmas.

Plasmas over the long run aren't going to be able to hold onto the 42-inch range.

They can hold onto 50-inches and above--but more than price--in the long run they will have to significantly increase performance--not because they aren't already better than LCD--they are--but because the "MOST" people who I have spoken of before won't be able to even tell their superiority.

And please spare me about their buisness people knowing price points.

Yes it is BAD BUISNESS if you make a short term--say one year--margin if that means that long term you will lose buishness!

Haven't we already seen that in our economy?

Course ultimately with the bean counters at all electronics companies it doesn't come down to making a profit over the long term--it's can I make a killing now regardless of whether it hurts me in the long term?

So yes it is DUMB to "get away with it" and not "smart buisness" if making great margins of larger plasmas would allow LCD to get more larger size sales--they don't have to be 60 or 65-inch--even if it makes the "MOST" people choose 52-inch or 55-inch LCDs when they upgrade rather than Plasma then that is DUMB!

And what do I define as DUMB?

It doesn't only have to be from a buisness viewpoint--the last time I checked this was an enthusiast's forum.

If LCD totally took over the world and made 10 TRILLION dollars and there was no plasma sold even if it could perform better--that would be a BAD THING!

Just like it was a bad thing from a car enthusiast's point of view regardless of how many 1974 Mustang IIs were sold!

If there was one thing I would like to get people to understand here that never is by some people--it is whatever the market decides--no matter how much money they make--and EVEN no matter how many people are happy with the products that the market makes--that has nothing to do with great picture quality just like it doesn't with art!

And money made and performance are not equivalent either.

And it is POSSIBLE for all the maunfacturers that we post about here with all their buisness acumen to make DUMB CHOICES!

They can make dumb buisness choices even if viewed soley from a buisness viewpoint.

Not making larger plasmas is DUMB! Making FLICKER TVS is dumb!

And anyone who doesn't think so is...entitled to their opinion?

See I am open minded!

This post would be a great introduction for a class on logic. Class, please identify all logical errors in this post and explain the different kinds of errors in depth.

But I have neither the time nor desire to do that.

Rock on my friend!

Got it. I will set my sights on a 65, then.
Hopefully, Pioneer will maintain the single sheet of glass, 72Hz (or other flicker free rate).

Thanks.

- Rich

Rich, I take it from this post that you expect to see a 65" Pioneer model this year, is that correct?

Do you have any information to support that? I may have missed the posts on that, could be worth waiting for if true.

Rich, I take it from this post that you expect to see a 65" Pioneer model this year, is that correct?

Do you have any information to support that? I may have missed the posts on that, could be worth waiting for if true.

I do, but because it makes sense to offer sizes from the Panasonic family and because D-Nice said it is very likely to have a 60+ panel. That does not leave much else ;)

- Rich

I do, but because it makes sense to offer sizes from the Panasonic family and because D-Nice said it is very likely to have a 60+ panel. That does not leave much else ;)

- Rich

When will they be announcing their sizes and lineups? October?

When will they be announcing their sizes and lineups? October?The same time they normally do....May.

When do you think pricing (msrp) will be released by Panasonic regarding there televisions?

When do you think pricing (msrp) will be released by Panasonic regarding there televisions?

Should be soon.

Thanks,
Chris

My blacks are bigger-scratch that-blacker than your blacks. Heck I'd just be happy if Panny could give us a friggen swivel stand on all models instead of just the V.

The Z1 series looks very nice. I'm thinking about buying this one or the new Samsungs 8 plasma series.

Shame there's only a 54-inch class model. Any words on other sizes?

Heck I'd just be happy if Panny could give us a friggen swivel stand on all models instead of just the V.

The V series is what I am interested in.

Will all of the sets in the V series had a swivel stand?

I am about to make my first HDTV purchase, going from a 36" wega. I am not sure if I should wait till I can see the new 54" V series or just pull the trigger on a 50" 800u. Where I live I was only able to see the 800u at bestbuy, and am a bit concerned about the 24p issues. If I was able to see this in action it would help my decision. I have gone so long without HD if I have to wait a few more months I guess it wont kill me....

I am about to make my first HDTV purchase, going from a 36" wega. I am not sure if I should wait till I can see the new 54" V series or just pull the trigger on a 50" 800u. Where I live I was only able to see the 800u at bestbuy, and am a bit concerned about the 24p issues. If I was able to see this in action it would help my decision. I have gone so long without HD if I have to wait a few more months I guess it wont kill me....

Wait, that's what i'm gonna do.

Did we lose the '08's Studio Ref Mode/Pro Setting too THX only on the '09 highend models?

Did we lose the '08's Studio Ref Mode/Pro Setting too THX only on the '09 highend models?

Not at all. The V and Z should have Studio Ref Mode Pro Settings.

Chris

I am about to make my first HDTV purchase, going from a 36" wega. I am not sure if I should wait till I can see the new 54" V series or just pull the trigger on a 50" 800u. Where I live I was only able to see the 800u at bestbuy, and am a bit concerned about the 24p issues. If I was able to see this in action it would help my decision. I have gone so long without HD if I have to wait a few more months I guess it wont kill me....

The flicker in the 800u set is kind of the deal breaker. Why bother with it? Just get the 85u set instead.

Not at all. The V and Z should have Studio Ref Mode Pro Settings.

Chris
"Should have" or they do?
BIG thanks.

The V series is both, the OLD 850 AND 800 according to the Panasonic guy at CES.

In the future my copy and paste should read like this:

-V series has 5120 shades of gradation instead of 4096 like the S Series. 24P playback. THX mode. Different speakers. 1 Extra HDMI. Studio Ref Mode. Pro Settings. RS232C input. VieraCast (Internet). V series "has" the THX mode and still adds a wider color gamut (Digital Cinema Color)

Chris - Any information on the Pro Settings? Have they added any new options?

My blacks are bigger-scratch that-blacker than your blacks. Heck I'd just be happy if Panny could give us a friggen swivel stand on all models instead of just the V.
Sorry for the mis-post it the Z-series(most expensive) that has the swivel stand.

It's early, it's not review, and it's CNet, but FWIW:

1-13-09
quote:

"Absent any announcements by Pioneer (which will come in late spring, most likely), Panasonic's G10 series is probably the surest bet for Editors' Choice of any TV I saw at the show. That's why I awarded it Best of CES in the TV category. In case you're wondering, however, all of the Neo PDP panels, including the least-expensive S1, share the same basic picture-quality specs...."

Chris,
BIG thanks; as I was calling you out & you came though.
Hope the G10 Panas come though for you sales wise as well.
Have a GREAT '09!

No reply required

If only Panasonic released their 58 inch sets at the same time as the rest of their line-up, I've realized that a 50 inch set won't be a big enough upgrade for me, but the new Neo's seem to be eliminating the green phosphor trails that bug me, so that is a huge bonus in my book, but the 58 inch sets won't be out for at least 6 months at the earliest.

So to put it simply, I am torn as to what I should do, my 42inch 720p Panasonic is looking real small right now.

Yeah I've recently gone to a 32 samsung that was in my bedroom to get me by until the 54" sets are released. I just hope the 54"ers are priced reasonably i.e. 2k and under.

I'm really looking forward to getting the 42-inch G10 as soon as it comes out.

I've been waiting since 2007 for the right video display to come along and this one definitely seems like it's it.

I can't wait to use my PS3 with this baby at night with the lights off.

I'm prepared to be impressed with the picture quality, especially the black levels.

seems like the new pannys have been posted

http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/shop/Televisions/VIERA-Plasma-HDTVs.list.75003_11002_7000000000000005702

I was waiting for them to post the Z V G S X models
but it seems like they now have different models
TC-P50X1
TC-P50S1
TC-P50G10
TC-P50C1
TC-P50U1

seems like the X1 and C1 are 720p plasmas, what is the U series?

may might be a long time to wait, instead of getting the 50pz850u now.

It's probably best to just let this thread remain dead. All recent 2009 Panasonic plasma discussion is here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15893032