Did I miss a major litigation? I bought a Toshiba RD-XS54 with a 250GB HD about 2 years ago, wondering if this was a good move in contrast to the Pioneer. It works rather well, even for recording HD content which appears noticeably below HD but sufficient for replays. I took a look to see what's available these days and it seems that there are virtually no hard disk video recorders for play with NTSC. I'm wondering if I'm in the twilight zone or yet another ridiculous patent litigation is taking place with everyone claiming that they own a piece of something and everyone gets locked out. Seems like they are very hard to find and even new items - like the old XS34 - is going for several hundred dollars more than when it came out. Has the world gone mad or have I missed something, lol? :D

Just cruise through some of the other threads in this forum. We spend a fair amount of time lamenting this situation and analyzing the causes of it.

Basically, the disappearance of DVD recorders with HDD seems to boil down to:

(1) Increased pressure from the content creators (i.e., Hollywood, TV networks) to prevent copying, and

(2) Lack of interest in burning DVDs by the overall market. Consumers seem to be mainly interested in time-shifting, easily handled by leasing a DVR from their cable or satellite provider, which tends to be easier to use than a standalone DVD recorder.

Interesting and thanks. There is no question that this was done moreso thanks to #1. There aren't many I know who care to spend $10-15 a month buying a simple timeshifting feature from cable when for a few dollars more they can burn their programs to DVD. I did a search for a copyright issue and couldn't find one. I was trying to figure out why someone was trying desperately to get hold of me to buy my unit which was just a sample ad I placed on a test system (for $250!) The guy wouldn't stop emailing and calling... wow... to think this is now a thing of the past. I'm hating American capitalism more each day, especially Hollywood. Most of their lackluster movies deserve to be pirated, lol. This is all so sad.... Long live my PC with program recording built into the software...

I think there are just certain members here (you know who you are!) who are hoarding all of the units in the market in vast closets, and then blaming a dwindle in supply. :p ;) Then when the threshold occurs, they will make a killing on eBay. FEAR FOR YOUR LIVES!

Just cruise through some of the other threads in this forum. We spend a fair amount of time lamenting this situation and analyzing the causes of it.

Basically, the disappearance of DVD recorders with HDD seems to boil down to:

(1) Increased pressure from the content creators (i.e., Hollywood, TV networks) to prevent copying, and

(2) Lack of interest in burning DVDs by the overall market. Consumers seem to be mainly interested in time-shifting, easily handled by leasing a DVR from their cable or satellite provider, which tends to be easier to use than a standalone DVD recorder.

Just curious but how'd you come up with #1. Why would they only go after DVD recorders with hard drives and give a pass to cheaper non hard drive models which at cheaper price points have a better chance to proliferate through the market? Would not sub $100 DVD players sell to a broader audience and thus become a more natural target?

If I had a choice I'd move all my chips to #2.

Yes, I agree that #2 is probably the bigger cause. From what I've read on this forum and seen in the actual offerings in the stores, the non-HDD DVDRs aren't selling so well, either. The more expensive HDD models certainly sold in smaller numbers, hence are the first to go when its time to trim the product lines.

All of this goes back to what I suspect was a misreading by CE mfrs of what consumers were using VCRs for. Turns out most people weren't using their VCRs to record, but to view rented tapes. So the direct replacement for the VCR in the majority of households wasn't the DVD recorder but the DVD player. Satco/cableco DVRs covered a lot of time-shifters needs, leaving a rather small market for DVD recorders.

Bottom line, Slinky, is that if you like your Tosh, take good care of it and keep it running as long as you can. And if you've got the green, consider investing in a Philips 3576 as a back up while you can still get one.

Just curious but how'd you come up with #1. Why would they only go after DVD recorders with hard drives and give a pass to cheaper non hard drive models which at cheaper price points have a better chance to proliferate through the market? Would not sub $100 DVD players sell to a broader audience and thus become a more natural target?LOL, I ask that same question every time the conspiracy advocates come out to play. Not only your point on price and proliferation, but potential threat. Any DVDR with a burner (that would be all of them) is capable of sneaker-netting a video to ones PC where it can be edited, shrunk with DivX and POSTED ON THE INTERNET. So why would Hollywood care one way or another if it had an HDD -- the burner is the real threat.

Yes. Also add to the mix the proliferation of channels as well as OnDemand stuff that was not there in the VCR days. There may be less of a tendency to have to archive locally - i.e. burned DVDs when there is so much content available now with the click of the remote. Cablecos are offering a ton of OnDemand. For those that subscribe to premium channels there are hundreds of choices in real time.

Archiving at home using for example DVD (as well as purchasing DVDs at retail) allowed people to watch what they wanted to watch when they wanted to watch it. Not too long ago this seemed more important IMO. Now with the amount of content available this becomes less of a concern. Now add cheap cableco and satco DVRs to the mix.

This doesn't help the OTA folks though. And they seem to be the most concerned about the lack of this DVD w/HDD technology moving forward. Also throw in the basic cable (no STB cableco customer) I guess.

For me I moved to satellite last year. My STB allows archiving to external HDD's via a USB connection. I've probably got over 400 movies archived by now - and these are all archived in high definition. I have my prized flagship Toshiba XS55 in the mix but in all honesty I use it less as an archiving tool and would probably think twice before I replaced it for its list price of $699 - even if it was available.

I guess time marches on. If I want to off load high def content to DVD the XS55 does an excellent job but the result is still standard definition burned to a DVD. The XS55 remains a great option for family video creation. Excellent machine for custom archiving.

LOL, I ask that same question every time the conspiracy advocates come out to play. Not only your point on price and proliferation, but potential threat. Any DVDR with a burner (that would be all of them) is capable of sneaker-netting a video to ones PC where it can be edited, shrunk with DivX and POSTED ON THE INTERNET. So why would Hollywood care one way or another if it had an HDD -- the burner is the real threat.

This was your idea. I stole it from you. When you first wrote it it made perfect sense. Easy to understand and difficult to refute. I've used it ever since. You get the credit!

(...)There aren't many I know who care to spend $10-15 a month buying a simple timeshifting feature from cable when for a few dollars more they can burn their programs to DVD. (...)

Then you need to widen your circle of acquaintances to get a better statistical sample:D. Trust us on this one, 'twas the cable/satellite dvr that slew the DVD/HDD recorder: there are folks in Appalachia who don't have plumbing but damn well make sure they pay their monthly DiSH DVR bills. doswonk1 nailed it: the DVD *player* was the direct replacement for the VCR. And given we're a nation with huge cable/satellite penetration, making an independent DVD/HDD recorder interface easily with multiple decoder boxes was a trick Japan never pulled off. They came close with the TVGOS system, but it was too little too late: America got used to TiVO boxes and the cable/satellite DVR for timeshifting- they're just SO much easier- point, click, timeshift. There's no way to compete with that kind of proprietary convenience. Toshiba and Pioneer tried to sell DVD/HDD recorders equipped with genuine TiVO a few years ago, and even THOSE bombed! The USA mass market is clearly not the least bit interested in making permanent DVD burns of anything, aside from ripping rental DVDs on their computers.

I think you have some kind of hatred of Tivo. Why do you think the Tivo/DVD recorders bombed? I honestly don't have any evidence they were a great big hit compared to other Tivos, but I see people online looking for them fairly often.

I certainly would have bought one *IF* I could edit the recordings before burning to DVD, and transfer recordings from other Tivos to burn to DVD. Both issues were software issues, the second closer to a technical issue since other Tivos record at rates that don't fit the DVD standards.

It certainly would be more reliable than my XS32. I still use it daily, and really the only big big feature I like is that it does faster-than-realtime play with sound (which I use A LOT). Tivo simplicity and reliability (unplug at ANY MOMENT and you don't hose the system -- XS32 gives big warnings on the screen 'do not unplug or power down' at various points), with the editing feature, would be great.

(I now have Tivos that can transfer to a computer -- but unfortunately none of the programs that will play the recordings will let me EDIT them. They are easily editable on Windows, apparently..)

I think there are just certain members here (you know who you are!) who are hoarding all of the units in the market in vast closets, and then blaming a dwindle in supply. :p ;) Then when the threshold occurs, they will make a killing on eBay. FEAR FOR YOUR LIVES!

Could be. I now have 12 DVD recorders, 10 of them with HDDs.

I think you have some kind of hatred of Tivo. Why do you think the Tivo/DVD recorders bombed?

You misunderstand me: I have no innate dislike of TiVO. I simply don't agree that screwing around with a TiVO and interconnected PCs and external hard drives is an adequate substitute for a single-box DVD/HDD recorder. It suits you and obviously a percentage of other "power users" here, who enjoy having their computers embedded in their home entertainment systems and their libraries stored on hard drives. It just doesn't suit me: I really dig the workflow of transferring direct from HDD to DVD burner within the same remote controlled CE device. To each his own.

The 2003 Pioneer and Toshiba DVD/HDD/TiVO recorders did indeed bomb: if they hadn't they would have been kept in the line and updated. Instead they disappeared from the 2004 lineups and were replaced by TVGOS-equipped recorders in 2005. It is unclear exactly *why* the TiVO/DVD units didn't sell, I'm guessing it was largely price (which was in the $1000 range), possibly caused by exhorbitant TiVO license fees. I think it was also a flawed concept without a market at that price: casual users couldn't justify the cost and gladly sacrificed DVD burning for the far cheaper HDD-only TiVO-branded units, and advanced users wouldn't tolerate the inability to edit the TiVO-scheduled recordings (you were stuck with the commercials forever). Everything on eBay has a cult following, so the brisk sales of these machines second-hand doesn't mean much. Most of the interest is from hard-core TiVO fans who want to get their hands on the embedded "lifetime subscription" these recorders include, thereby avoiding re-ups. Sales of these old Pio and Toshiba units ride a rollercoaster in lockstep with TiVO's offering or retracting of new lifetime subscriptions.

I understand I'm the minority within a minority in that I have no use whatsoever for convenience programming systems: I value direct control over my recorders above any other factor. For me, TiVO and TVGOS just get in my way- I grew up in the age of crude VCRs and prehistoric cable, so I'm fine setting multiple timers and managing all that crap because I covet the DVD as an end product of my aggravation. If I *didn't* want a DVD to archive, I would be right in line with everyone else, renting a TiVO-equipped cable box- they are incredibly convenient for those who are only interested in timeshifting, a consumers dream come true.

See, I'm just the opposite - I mainly have wanted these units to time shift, and that's why all my models have TVGOS (which has always worked perfectly for me).

I like to have the built-in DVD recorder to occasionally save something for posterity. I suppose if I were still watching mainly on an SD display I would be saving stuff to DVD more, but I'm not, and I'd rather watch HD on my TV. Maybe if I had premium movie channels (or TCM or IFC) in HD I'd want stuff from them more often, but I don't have any desire to archive primetime OTA HD television, even though it still looks pretty good in SD. I'm not much into the lame dramas and sitcoms being shown these days, and definitely not into anything remotely resembling reality television.

And anything from my lousy-looking SD Dish channels and OTA subchannels isn't even worth saving to DVD.

(I still do end up using the timers just as much as the TVGOS, though. A lot of the time I have to adjust the recording times when using the grid, or I just end up setting the timer manually altogether, although I do prefer having the HDD recordings automatically titled when at all possible.)

A few years back I had a friend who worked at Best Buy. He said people were returning the HDD models because they were too complicated to use. Obviously this would not be the situation for people on this forum. But there still are folks out there that cannot set the clock on their vcr.

I know people who have had vcrs for years but never recorded anything. They just used them to play rental movies. I can understand why sales of DVD recorders, with or without HDD, may be low. Just my opinion, the majority of people want either a DVD player or a DVR. They are not interested in recording & archiving TV programs. They'll buy a box set of their favorite shows.

Just think about PBS programs where they advertise selling the program that you just watched. Years ago it was only VHS. I used to wonder why would anyone buy a VHS tape of what they just watched. If they had a vcr to play it on that means they could have recorded it in the first place. But there obviously was a market for selling VHS TV shows. A lot of people do not care about recording. They may want the program, but they would rather just buy it.

They may want the program, but they would rather just buy it.Not surprising, if they've got a larger higher-rez display, and they care anything about picture quality (and then there's the constant commercials, bugs, pop-ups and banners they don't have to put up with).

Maybe if I had premium movie channels (or TCM or IFC) in HD I'd want stuff from them more often, but I don't have any desire to archive primetime OTA HD television, even though it still looks pretty good in SD.

That's my situation: I'm a TCM/IFC junkie, plus I'm archiving several HBO and Showtime and F/X series that I haven't had time to watch many episodes of yet. That's why I need the DVDs for storage. Although I think I'm finally hitting a wall with TCM and IFC: I've re-recorded almost everything I previously had on tape, and recently the video quality of TCM on Time Warner Digital cable here in NYC went from decent to total crap, literally overnight. TCM is now unwatchable in New York: forget about recording it. I'm amazed Ted Turner doesn't have watchdogs in each city to make sure the cable vendors don't screw with his pet station- its pretty vile that VH1 looks ten times better than TCM now.:( Unless perhaps Ted agreed to this downgrade to encourage sales of old movies on DVD:mad:.

A few years back I had a friend who worked at Best Buy. He said people were returning the HDD models because they were too complicated to use. Obviously this would not be the situation for people on this forum. But there still are folks out there that cannot set the clock on their vcr.

Just think about PBS programs where they advertise selling the program that you just watched. Years ago it was only VHS. I used to wonder why would anyone buy a VHS tape of what they just watched. If they had a vcr to play it on that means they could have recorded it in the first place. But there obviously was a market for selling VHS TV shows. A lot of people do not care about recording. They may want the program, but they would rather just buy it.
My dad still has the 12:00 flashing on his VCR. He came up with the definitive solution to the issue. No, he didn't figure out how to set the clock, he taped a piece of cardboard over the display so you can't see it blinking.

I just finished a long process of transferring all my archived NOVA episodes to DVD. The earliest ones said that a transcript was available by calling... Then you could get them on Beta videocassette, then Beta or VHS videocassette, then only VHS, and finally DVD. I just had to laugh at the progression. That was late 70s early 80s stuff.
You misunderstand me: I have no innate dislike of TiVO. I simply don't agree that screwing around with a TiVO and interconnected PCs and external hard drives is an adequate substitute for a single-box DVD/HDD recorder. It suits you and obviously a percentage of other "power users" here, who enjoy having their computers embedded in their home entertainment systems and their libraries stored on hard drives. It just doesn't suit me: I really dig the workflow of transferring direct from HDD to DVD burner within the same remote controlled CE device. To each his own.
I'm with you. Sometimes I hear how everything is hooked together in some setups and all I can think of is a Rube-Goldberg device. yes, I'm exaggerating, but that's what it sounds like. The elegance of a single-box solution seems preferable to me. the goal is watching the movie or television show, so the menus and doo-dads, bells and whistles, are minor to me. Just the content please, and the single box works just fine for that, for me. To each his own, if you like the interconnected component setup, great, but don't deny me my single-box solution.

I'll give you my reason. I don't know if others had the same experience and told their friends and family. I had a DVD recorder that just stopped working one day. Wouldn't even play movies on it. After that experience, I am hesitant to go the DVD recorder route again. I want to get a decent life out of things I buy. I hardly had the unit for 2 years and just plain useless paperweight at this point.

Not a big fan of the DVR either as no way to just take the file off the DVR and you are tied to either cable company or a Tivo charge. I would gladly buy a HDD option though. BUt not at an arm & a leg price.

Just think about PBS programs where they advertise selling the program that you just watched. Years ago it was only VHS. I used to wonder why would anyone buy a VHS tape of what they just watched. If they had a vcr to play it on that means they could have recorded it in the first place. But there obviously was a market for selling VHS TV shows. A lot of people do not care about recording. They may want the program, but they would rather just buy it.

At the end of "Click and Clack, The Tappet Brothers" Car Talk PBS radio program they used to say "if you want a cassette tape of this program then you should have put in a cassette one hour ago and pressed record." Then they went on to give ordering information for a cassette. It's probably a CD now.

You misunderstand me: I have no innate dislike of TiVO. I simply don't agree that screwing around with a TiVO and interconnected PCs and external hard drives is an adequate substitute for a single-box DVD/HDD recorder. It suits you and obviously a percentage of other "power users" here, who enjoy having their computers embedded in their home entertainment systems and their libraries stored on hard drives. It just doesn't suit me: I really dig the workflow of transferring direct from HDD to DVD burner within the same remote controlled CE device. To each his own.

The 2003 Pioneer and Toshiba DVD/HDD/TiVO recorders did indeed bomb: if they hadn't they would have been kept in the line and updated. Instead they disappeared from the 2004 lineups and were replaced by TVGOS-equipped recorders in 2005. It is unclear exactly *why* the TiVO/DVD units didn't sell, I'm guessing it was largely price (which was in the $1000 range), possibly caused by exhorbitant TiVO license fees

I guess I was partially misunderstanding you, but you're also partially misunderstanding me.

The reason I became a frequent reader here is precisely because I eventually bought a standalone hard drive/DVD recorder. (I was here long before I bought one.)

The only citation for a price I found in an admittedly quick search was from a forum where someone said $900. BTW, the Pioneer DVR-810HS
has/had Tivo Basic, so you DO NOT pay a monthly fee. (That is a very reduced functionality though. Still in some ways better than VCR-like programming.)

Plus, maybe it's that the manufacturers didn't want to pay Tivo a license (which I am presuming was required), not that they didn't keep making it due to low sales. Tivo Series 1s aren't made anymore either, but I would consider them a hit.

Oh yeah, and I don't really want a computer hooked up to the TV. I am only _experimenting_ with downloading from a Tivo to a computer to make more room on the Tivo to offload stuff from the Tivo, and to be able to (someday) edit it *without losing a generation of loss*.. and download it faster than real time, which obviously playing to a DVD recorder requires.

Currently I still record things from my Tivos to my Toshiba, but that's usually not to then record to DVD. (It's so I can then watch at the faster-than-realtime speed. Sometimes it's just the convenience of setting up the initial recording on the Tivo that leads me to not just record it on the Toshiba in the first place.. other times it's due to already recording something at that time on the Toshiba.)

Just think about PBS programs where they advertise selling the program that you just watched. Years ago it was only VHS. I used to wonder why would anyone buy a VHS tape of what they just watched. If they had a vcr to play it on that means they could have recorded it in the first place. But there obviously was a market for selling VHS TV shows. A lot of people do not care about recording. They may want the program, but they would rather just buy it.

I suspect a major part of that market is institutional libraries. PBS grants blanket "taping rights" to individual instructors for most shows, for use in their classes for a certain period after the broadcast date. But if a school library etc. wants it for their collection, I'm pretty sure they have to buy a copy.

Well, I find it hard to believe that there is NO consumer demand for these items. Apparently someone is willing to give me $500 for the unit since he's dying to get a DVR and I bought it for $650 a few years ago. I really doubt that it's all about people just wanting to spend $15 a month without having to think. Sure there is a market for that but I haven't seen the ENTIRE market dry up like this... I surely wonder about the desire to limit distribution on DVD.

It's not that there is NO demand, it's that it never got the critical mass of demand needed for the CE companies to bother. Everyone is quick to toss around complicated conspiracy theories, but I honestly think Occam's razor is at play. They don't make them because not enough people care. Sure, a few care, and some care a great deal, but unless they're paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for each unit, it's not enough to sustain production.

It's not that there is NO demand, it's that it never got the critical mass of demand needed for the CE companies to bother. Everyone is quick to toss around complicated conspiracy theories, but I honestly think Occam's razor is at play. They don't make them because not enough people care. Sure, a few care, and some care a great deal, but unless they're paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for each unit, it's not enough to sustain production.

So every single manufacturer must not have properly gauged demand and all of them went out together? There were at least Pioneer, Toshiba, Sony, Panasonic that I can recall as well as a few others. You're telling me that ALL of them went in the business and then left completely? If some players left I might believe it. But when all the players leave I begin to think that there must be some force at play. Perhaps someone is hoping that the sale of Blu-ray might pick up as well if you can make it into the only long term large sized storage solution in town? I don't know but someone would have picked up the slack - and I saw no indication from anyone that sales of these units were due to a lack of demand because I didn't see any serious price drop. Additionally, more than one generation were produced. This mass exodus is unusual.

Amusing that my father said it would have been a whole lot easier for him to dump his DV cam to the DVR and burn a DVD. Would have loved to do so and I'm sure plenty of others did too. Again, we're talking about a mass exodus and no sign of a price reduction.

This is a very good point. ;)

Alternatively, maybe it was inadequate use of pretty blue led's on the machines? :p (There's no symbolic message behind this comment. I'm just acknowledging how popular these little blue leds have become in all sorts of CE devices.)

It's not that there is NO demand, it's that it never got the critical mass of demand needed for the CE companies to bother.

In my household there are seventeen Panasonic DVD recorders or combo recorders from the 2005, 2006 and 2007 model years. I seems to me that Panasonic serial numbers may indicate an actual production sequence since the last five or six numbers in the serial numbers, with but two exceptions (both DMR-ES35V models), start with a leading zero. As I indicate only the highest serial number found among the individual Panasonic models found in my household, this should point toward production volumes for these models:

DMR-ES30V (2005) combo recorder, highest number is 007086
DMR-ES40V (2005) combo recorder, highest number is 012690
DMR-ES15 (2006) DVD recorder, highest number is 023078
DMR-ES35V (2006) combo recorder, highest number is 15109
DMR-EZ17K (2007) DVD recorder, highest number is 007653

The number of samples for these models and country of manufacture breaks down so:

(4) DMR-ES30V Malaysia
(1) DMR-ES40V Malaysia
(4) DMR-ES15 China
(6) DMR-ES35V Malaysia
(2) DMR-EZ17K China

Well, don't overlook the fact that it's also getting harder to find anything worth keeping a permanent copy of...LOL.

Slinky, many of us here are stunned and pissed off about the failure of DVD/HDD recorders, because of course we're biased: we have a specific set of needs that they serve, and we are "geeky" enough to deal with their sometimes difficult operation. But the plain bald elephant-in-the-room fact that we all try desperately to pretend isn't true, is quite true: the friggin things were not and are not popular in the USA, they did not and do not sell in enough numbers for mfrs to justify the expense and $ loss of marketing them here.

You need to put this in perspective: there are weird aspects to marketing this device that only apply to this device. It is perceived as *extremely* difficult to use, the price is perceived in excess of its utility to the average consumer, stupid TiVO keeps threatening to sue for royalties because they own a really sketchy vague patent in the USA covering ANY device that timeshifts to a hard drive, and finally the damn things have upwards of a 50% return rate at retail. All of this combined make the units uprofitable and risky to sell here. Do not underestimate that huge return rate: no other product is returned to stores as unwanted to this degree and it just totally kills the minimal profit mfrs can make on these.

Customarily electronics always have sold in the USA for WAY less than they do in Europe and Japan, partly from American price sensitivity and partly from a legacy of "dumping". On average the mfrs make pennies or perhaps a couple bucks on each unit sold in the USA, hoping that the huge size of the market will cumulatively give them unit volume and profits. The margin is razor thin, so if half the units are returned they're so far in to the red it isn't funny. And prices HAVE been dropping like a stone: in 2003 they were $700, in 2004 they were $600, in 2005 $500, then in 2006 they sank to less than $400 at which point they weren't profitable even at 100% sell through. When our gov't demanded every recorder include an ATSC tuner for 2007, it was the straw that broke the camels back and triggered the mass exodus, leaving behind only the VHS/ DVD combos and cheaper DVD-only recorders.

Yes, it is extremely hard to believe that with a population approaching 300 million the USA cannot support this product. But it just doesn't: we love our cable/satellite, and these machines just suck wind at integrating with those services. The popularity of $10 cable-integrated DVR rentals shot up exponentially in the last couple years, they RULE for timeshifting. Period. Everyone who sees one wants one. You may not know anyone who does, and there are plenty of members here who would rather use prehistoric VCRs than pay one penny for a DVR rental, but that is not the mass market.

If you need an absolute final argument, look what happened to Phillips. In 2006, Phillips invested serious money to design the only ATSC DVD/HDD recorder sold in the USA. They flooded the market with them, thinking they'd have a gold mine since all their competitors had left the field. What happened? Status quo: 50% returns and 50% left rotting on the shelf at chain stores, even at the bargain price of $250 which is likely below cost. After two years of spitting into the wind, Phillips announced it will drop the product in 2009. And their supplier Funai reported a 50% drop in profits this year which they directly attribute to zero USA interest in DVD recorders (Funai makes half the DVD recorders sold worldwide). Americans willingly rob banks if they have to in order to keep buying the latest $300 iPod or PSP or Wii, but they consider DVD recorders "too expensive" and "not useful".

I was curious and read some reviews of the Philips unit you mentioned. So what was the real failure? In many respects, Philips put out a unit that sounded like they hadn't ever looked at an HDD recorder before, which doesn't surprise me. It certainly didn't sound like people weren't willing to pay, just that Philips once again didn't really put out a quality product built to enjoy or last.

Regarding TIVO suing for time shifting patents, while it's completely absurd that they invented time shifting, the litigation is another reason why the cost and desire to build HDD recorders perhaps went down. I'm wondering what connection this may have to our all too powerful cable monopolies as well, who would prefer we pay $15 per month for their DVR. I also wonder whether the media manufacturers didn't want to get their cut the same way royalties as a set off for piracy were imposed on the sale of every VHS tape? Now we are starting to talk about legal costs of "the industry" causing a whole new type of pain - and I'm wondering whether Sony did a 180 in the face of its own desire to knock out HD-DVD by flexing its power.

I guess I'm going to stick with my DVR and not sell it, despite being able to get some good dollars for it at this point. It's crazy to think that I can't replace it. Unfortunately the reality of today's America means I'll have fonder memories of the past than the promise of the future. Weird. Never thought that would happen so quickly...

I was curious and read some reviews of the Philips unit you mentioned. So what was the real failure? In many respects, Philips put out a unit that sounded like they hadn't ever looked at an HDD recorder before, which doesn't surprise me. It certainly didn't sound like people weren't willing to pay, just that Philips once again didn't really put out a quality product built to enjoy or last.

I don't particularly care for the Phillips, but it IS actually a fairly good-quality unit, so I don't know where you found such heavily negative reviews. Going back five years, there have always been two classes of DVD/HDD recorder: the more simple meant primarily for timeshifting, and the more complex meant primarily for editing. The bigger Japanese names (Panasonic, Pioneer, Toshiba) had better editing features at a significantly higher price, the second-tier brands (Phillips, LG, Samsung, ILO, etc) had cruder editing but sold an HDD-equipped recorder at very attractive prices. Prior to the Phillips 3575/3576 most Phillips recorders were pretty low-rent, its true. But when they saw an opportunity in 2006 to become the sole supplier of DVD/HDD recorders in the USA, Phillips upped its game and designed those units to be as good as possible at the price point Americans were willing to pay. The better Japanese units never dipped below $450, the 3575 debuted at $300. Considering it includes the ATSC tuner the other makers couldn't be bothered with, that was and is an excellent value-per-dollar.

The hostile reviews come mostly from fans of the higher-end recorders that were pulled from the USA, they are very bitter that those machines are no longer available and fault the Phillips for not being a Panasonic DMR-EH80. This is a little like faulting a Volkswagen GTI for not being a Ferrari: c'mon. The 3575/3576 were designed to appeal to the broadest swath of US consumers who might be wanting a DVD/HDD recorder, which meant they had to come in under $300, had to include an ATSC tuner, and could cut corners with editing features and other niceties as long as they met the price point, were reliable, and had an HDD for easy timeshifting and offload to DVD. Most of the nasty reviews center around glitches in the combo analog/ATSC tuner: this is unfair because *every* recorder or TV with this type of tuner has issues: these tuners are barely out of prototype stage. Also, most of the reported problems are caused by shady cable TV vendors not adhering to standards, not the recorders themselves.

The Phillips 3575/3576 are a failure NOT due to bad design, because they are in fact the ideal units for the segment they target. They are a failure because nobody wants this kind of recorder AT ALL anymore, at any price. Phillips is to be commended for holding out two years longer than every other mfr, and for offering a really compelling price/feature bundle. I personally do not like the machine because it is optimized for timeshifting while I'm a collector- I much prefer the operation and editing methods of Pioneer and I am willing to pay a $100 price premium for the privilege. But the Phillips is a great unit for the great majority of interested people here and it deserves a look before it disappears from stores in six months. Remember, it is the ONLY model with USA digital ATSC tuner- this alone makes it far more useful for timeshifters than any other machine you can buy, all of which will require cable or a clumsy outboard ATSC tuner after February.

I just did a search online for the unit and ended up getting many of the same comments - great picture quality but the remote and recording system was designed as bad if not worse than the old VHS recorders. The remote control is horrendous (apparently no volume controls!), there is no TV Guide (not such a bad thing but...) and recording of programs is just channel and time without the ability to add a title until after the program has recorded. At $250 it's tempting but I'm not sure I care if I can get my PC to record video to HD and then just burn to DVD easily. I've got an ATSC tuner in that one.

Another issue is over the air HDTV - I certainly haven't been able to use it with any real usefulness. Cable is a virtual necessity where I live and you're practically paying for it anyways since you're going to get raped without a double play, e.g. if you want internet, it will cost you without cable and vice versa. As a result, the over the air ATSC tuner becomes less important. I wish there was an easy way to replace what I've got in the XS54, which apparently will cease to function at some point in the future... but which I've never really used. :)

At $250, the Philips seems like a potential maybe while there still are such devices. My hesitation is that Philips products tend to lose their usefulness after just a few months. If they forgot to put a volume button on the remote control, it makes me wonder what else is under the hood. Apparently someone else who owned a Panasonic DVR ripped this one as being everything horrible about DVRs if you've ever owned a good one by a major brand. Still, it seems that they are being sold with high satisfaction at retail outlets - with the exception of manufacturing issues with faulty S-VHS inputs where I saw numerous returns. There is your challenge more than it is an actual lack of demand. At $300-450 a reasonably good DVR (without all the amazing features I have with the Toshiba XS-54) would prevent one from requiring TiVo/cable fees to the tune of $150 per year and also provide the ability to do digital editing, DV cam dumping, and being able to burn to DVD to watch elsewhere later.

Still, it seems that they are being sold with high satisfaction at retail outlets - with the exception of manufacturing issues with faulty S-VHS inputs where I saw numerous returns. There is your challenge more than it is an actual lack of demand.
This "faulty S-Video Input" is a real laugher. You must have read about the person who returned SIX units cuz he couldn't get the S-Video input to work... the manual was "confusing"... when it's much more likely that he didn't know that the S-Video Input has to be set in the Video menu... Composite is the default! :rolleyes:

Wow, this thread is even more depressing than watching current political coverage.

Lots of good posts, though. Citibear, I think you nailed it. A bitter pill to swallow, though.

Sigh...I've "stocked up" on recorders, but it's still sad. I do agree though, most of my friends could never deal with all the issues. Crimminy, just finding DVD-R disks that work and are reliable was a PITA. What average consumers will put up with that? And then all the Crappy DRM stuff came along and they started getting "Copy protected" messages when they tried to record their HBO movies and it was all over. They're just not going to struggle with this stuff like the people here in this forum will.

The only good was some great deals for us on recorders as they closed them out. But that's small payment for the pain of seeing this technology die out. The only thing cheering me up right now is my new Roku Netflix Player which is a $99 wonder and shows a possible future path for internet video that's very exciting...but that's far OT from this thread.

Slinky, I feel your pain, bro! It sux what's happened. And there's plenty of blame all around. But I blame the cable companies and the content providers most of all. They made this sh*t so complicated and confusing that they killed the market, IMHO. Anyway...it is what it is.

This "faulty S-Video Input" is a real laugher. You must have read about the person who returned SIX units cuz he couldn't get the S-Video input to work... the manual was "confusing"... when it's much more likely that he didn't know that the S-Video Input has to be set in the Video menu... Composite is the default! :rolleyes:

Hilarious - I was thinking the SAME thing!!!! It is SO unusual that this could happen. It's bizarre that you'd provide an ATSC digital tuner yet composite is the default. Now with regard to the copy protection issue and the pressure put on by the motion picture industry and the powers that be - why is it do you think that virtually no DVR provided component input? Too costly? LOL...

I'm one of those, who will return a product when it doesn't work as expected, and that includes DVD recorders.

While I'm as price-conscious as the next guy and go out of my way for a bargain, I don't mind paying extra $ for a higher-quality unit.
My first DVD recorder was a LiteOn 5005. I returned FOUR of them because of various problems, and finally, after the fifth one broke, I was unable to exchange that one because they were no longer available.
So I replaced the broken DVD drive myself with a $40 burner, and it's been working flawlessly ever since - if you don't count an occasional minor glitch every other month or so. With its simplicity, superb copying quality, ability to burn CDs from old LPs, etc, and its immunity to every possible kind of copy-protection, I cherish this rare, one-of-a-kind toy.

My next DVD recorder was a Pioneer 640, a high-quality HDD unit which simply worked as advertised, so there was no need to return it.
Because I was 100% satisfied with the Pio 640, I bought a Pio 650, and a Pio 550 on close-out a couple of years later.
With even more features than the Pio 640, and much cheaper, no reason to return either one.

Then, because of all the hype on this forum, and its digital tuner, I bought a Philips 3576!...

Well, even getting 70 QAM channels in the clear wasn't reason enough to keep that one. The picture quality from its tuner was simply unacceptable. With one of the Pios and the Philips on the same cable system on a A / B - switch configuration, the picture of the Philips was much softer, with moving wavy lines visible on a dark background, while the same channels on the Pioneer were sharp and clear. In addition, there was a buzzing sound on some channels, and very poor overall picture quality on a few others.
Checking out other people's experiences with that Philips line, I found that I was not the only one with those problems. Of course, the poor layout of its remote, and that cumbersome editing system didn't help either. More than enough reasons to return that 3576.

Did I abandon DVD recorders because of encountering some lemons? - No, I just bought ANOTHER brand-new Pio 650, which I will keep as a spare in case there will be no more after next year. If manufacturers build decent machines, there will always be those who appreciate, buy, and keep their products, except that this time - at least in North America - there seem to be more aggressive forces at work trying to discourage, or downright kill the archiving of home recording.
Give me a Pioneer DVDR with a working ATSC and QAM tuner, and I will buy and keep another couple of units!

Then, because of all the hype on this forum, and its digital tuner, I bought a Philips 3576!...

Well, even getting 70 QAM channels in the clear wasn't reason enough to keep that one. The picture quality from its tuner was simply unacceptable. With one of the Pios and the Philips on the same cable system on a A / B - switch configuration, the picture of the Philips was much softer, with moving wavy lines visible on a dark background, while the same channels on the Pioneer were sharp and clear. In addition, there was a buzzing sound on some channels, and very poor overall picture quality on a few others.
An A-B switch!? WHY?

The Philips has an amplified passthru, and the Pio has an unamplified passthru. Did you try connecting as shown in the System Connection help file (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12298409&postcount=10), first to Philips, on to Pio then on to TV? Or did you connect the Philips directly to the feed and TV to test just the Philips for a defective tuner?

You could have gotten feedback in the switch (esp. if it's electronic) from the amplified Philips passthru circuit, but I guess we'll never know now?

You know, I would even gladly buy one of those international model Panny's or Pio's, if only they only had just one, simple feature on them - IR blasters.

There are a few CECB boxes which can be controlled by them, and at least a couple that I know of (the Channel Master and the Zenith) have exceptionally good PQ for a CECB box (many of them are a bit lackluster and soft. The DTVPal, although it has it's own event timers and by far the best guide out there, has pretty mediocre PQ IMO, especially if you're planning on using it on a larger display. It's also very buggy).

I could easily live with that setup if I had to. In fact, I'm using the CM that way right now with my trusty, old E85H, and it looks and works great.

There's also a Zinwell box out there which has it's own timers which seems to work well enough, for people who don't have recorders with IR blasters.

Sure, it'd be nice to have a (US) working TVGOS in it, but as it is, I find myself adjusting the darned times more often than not these days on most recordings, anyway. Of course, any new recorder would have to have manual clock setting for when the OTA analog cutoff comes, but as far as I know, they all do.

But that's only for ATSC. If you wanted QAM, about the only thing out there with anything resembling a timer is the Samsung DTB-H260F, and that feature isn't very reliable, so the Philips/Magnavox would still be your only option for a (new) standalone recorder (also, no recorder has been ever found to have a code for it's blaster to control the Sammy).

The Pioneer 650s are still around but at around $600 and there don't seem to be any more closeouts. ;) The Toshiba models were a little awkward but the feature set is just ridiculously good. Quality is on par with the Pioneer although I might think the Pio is a tad better without jaggies but I really haven't seen them side by side. For what it's being used for - recording off TV - both the Pio and the Toshiba models are superb.

Here's the catch though - I heard rumors that the Toshiba XS series, the 32 and the 54/55 don't have standard connectors to the hard drive and the DVD drive. I could be wrong and the person opening the unit might have been mistaken. What is it like to replace a drive on a Pioneer model? Anyone do this on the Toshibas? This will be the key in making sure you can keep your investment working... (I do love the DVD-RAM on the Toshiba)

An A-B switch!? WHY?

The Philips has an amplified passthru, and the Pio has an unamplified passthru. Did you try connecting as shown in the System Connection help file (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12298409&postcount=10), first to Philips, on to Pio then on to TV? Or did you connect the Philips directly to the feed and TV to test just the Philips for a defective tuner?

You could have gotten feedback in the switch from the amplified Philips passthru circuit, but I guess we'll never know now?

wajo -- initially, I did have the Philips hooked up straight to the cable outlet, but after exhibiting those tuner problems, I wanted to compare its picture with that of the Pioneer, to rule out a cable problem. I used an A / B switch only later for comparing the picture quality of various channels.
I know you like the Philips a lot, and I'm not trying to discourage other people from purchasing one if it fits their needs. I'm simply justifying my own reasons for returning a machine when it doesn't perform as advertised, which is different from a unit working out of the box, but breaking down later, in which case I would have just replaced it with another one.

wajo -- initially, I did have the Philips hooked up straight to the cable outlet, but after exhibiting those tuner problems, I wanted to compare its picture with that of the Pioneer, to rule out a cable problem. I used an A / B switch only later for comparing the picture quality of various channels.
So, it appeared to have a defective tuner when connected directly to the TV, THEN you decided to put it on an A-B switch AFTER THAT to see what... if the defective tuner would heal itself?

So, it appeared to have a defective tuner when connected directly to the TV, THEN you decided to put it on an A-B switch AFTER THAT to see what... if the defective tuner would heal itself?

When I first took the 3576 out of the box and hooked it up, I had no idea why the picture was bad. This was my first encounter with a Philips DVD-related product. One way to troubleshoot such a problem is to connect another unit in an identical configuration to see if the second device (in this case a Pioneer) exhibits the same problem - which it didn't.

After that, I hooked up the Philips with a Pioneer via an A / B switch to see just how many channels were sick, and found that only the Philips, but not the Pioneer needed healing.
Since I'm not the only one that has experienced tuner problems with a 3575 / 3576, I came to the conclusion that my unit was beyond healing, and instead qualified for early euthanasia, hence the return to the store were I bought it from.

When I first took the 3576 out of the box and hooked it up, I had no idea why the picture was bad. This was my first encounter with a Philips DVD-related product. One way to troubleshoot such a problem is to connect another unit in an identical configuration to see if the second device (in this case a Pioneer) exhibits the same problem - which it didn't.

After that, I hooked up the Philips with a Pioneer via an A / B switch to see just how many channels were sick, and found that only the Philips, but not the Pioneer needed healing.
Since I'm not the only one that has experienced tuner problems with a 3575 / 3576, I came to the conclusion that my unit was beyond healing, and instead qualified for early euthanasia, hence the return to the store were I bought it from.

Pretty different story from this ONE post of yours after getting your 3576... no further requests for comment or suggestions from other users:

You are right. There does NOT seem to be a way around it. I tried to combine both, an amplified OTA digital channel, and the QAM channels via a reverse splitter; I also tried a 50 ohm potentiometer to attenuate one feed from the other, but as soon as you hook up both feeds (OTA and analog/digital), the OTA channels freezes and then disappears. The 3576 only keeps ONE previously scanned group in memory.

I wasn't even able to "ADD" one OTA channel manually after re-doing the analog/QAM scan. It only let me enter the basic channel #, but not the decimal point, which resulted in the blue screen. So an A/B switch does not seem to be the answer.

There are a few CECB boxes which can be controlled by them, and at least a couple that I know of (the Channel Master and the Zenith) have exceptionally good PQ for a CECB box (many of them are a bit lackluster and soft . . . . I could easily live with that setup if I had to. In fact, I'm using the CM that way right now with my trusty, old E85H, and it looks and works great.I will second that observation. I have the Zenith feeding into my E-85. Although the E-85 won't control the Zenith I can use it for manual one-at-a-time recordings. The resulting PQ when played back on my 50" plasma is very good and sharp. I don't mind watching it at all. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for the analog recordings made by the E-85's tuner. I'm waiting to see what happens between now and the end of the year. If the TR-50 or an equivalent doesn't come out, I'll go the CM-7000 route for the E-85 and give up the TVGOS. PQ has become very important to me in the last month. I won't compromise on that and get a device with an inferior tuner to get a few extra features. That means the DTVPal is off the table for me.

Yup, Kelson, I've been feeding my Panny E-85 from the Zenith and, more recently, the DTVPal, and it's finally really come into its own. The E-85's built-in analog tuner seemed mediocre at best. Before I got the DTV boxes, I used to feed it from my VCR's tuner when I wanted a good picture!

After that, I hooked up the Philips with a Pioneer via an A / B switch to see just how many channels were sick, and found that only the Philips, but not the Pioneer needed healing.It might help if you were to clarify where, in your setup, you installed the A/B switch. Were you switching the cable input between the 2 DVDR's or were you feeding the 2 DVDR's into the A/B and switching their output into a single input on the TV. If the latter, did you split the cable and feed the DVDR's individually, or did you daisy-chain them.

Yup, Kelson, I've been feeding my Panny E-85 from the Zenith and, more recently, the DTVPal, and it's finally really come into its own.I've got a Pal, too, but I'm just keeping that around mainly for if or when they ever get that TVGOS conversion thing working (there's such a difference in PQ with the CM that there's no contest as to which I'd rather use. Sure, the Pal's PSIP guide is the top-of-the-heap, but the CM's is more than good enough for me for a second TV. It's nearly as good, really - just not as fancy). I really don't have another use for it right now, although there's a little TV in another bedroom that rarely ever gets used that I can always pair it with come Feb. (if the TVGOS thing never pans out).

I've also got an older Accurian HD ATSC tuner which can be controlled by all my recorders, but it's 4th generation, and the CM outperforms it considerably.

I probably should've mentioned that the older recorders like the E85H only seem to be able to control the CM and the Pal. It's the newer models, like the EH55/75V which can also control the Zenith and RCA apparently. I'm guessing that the low-end, tunerless Panny DVDR with the IR blaster that's out now, and the most recent LG DVDR's w/the blasters can control all of them, too. Unfortunately, no recent HDD models have that feature that I know of, US or otherwise.

All this talk makes me think I need to keep the Toshiba RD XS54. The TVGOS actually works quite well for the most part (with the exception of all of them occasionally losing the channel settings which aren't stored and is beyond irritating.) The 250GB hard drive is excellent, the dump from DV works well, and it's incredibly neat that it can broadcast your video in a player on the network. It's actually rather remarkable and works quite well when I just want to catch up on a rerun while I work and have the video window on the second monitor... All this talk about work arounds on these other models just makes me realize what a great thing we had while we had it.

It might help if you were to clarify where, in your setup, you installed the A/B switch. Were you switching the cable input between the 2 DVDR's or were you feeding the 2 DVDR's into the A/B and switching their output into a single input on the TV. If the latter, did you split the cable and feed the DVDR's individually, or did you daisy-chain them.

Kelson -- I ran the cable feed to a 900 MHz 2-way splitter, and connected one RF output leg to the Philips, and the other to the Pioneer (the passthru RF outputs of each DVDR were left open).
From each DVDR, I connected their respective composite OUT lines to an A/V switching box, whose output was connected to the TV. Thus, switching between the two DVDRs, with both displaying the same selected channels each time, one could see the obvious difference in picture quality.
I only set this up like this to help me isolate the possible reason for the Philips' poor performance.

Pretty different story from this ONE post of yours after getting your 3576... no further requests for comment or suggestions from other users:

Originally Posted by tac7:
You are right. There does NOT seem to be a way around it. I tried to combine both, an amplified OTA digital channel, and the QAM channels via a reverse splitter; I also tried a 50 ohm potentiometer to attenuate one feed from the other, but as soon as you hook up both feeds (OTA and analog/digital), the OTA channels freezes and then disappears. The 3576 only keeps ONE previously scanned group in memory.

I wasn't even able to "ADD" one OTA channel manually after re-doing the analog/QAM scan. It only let me enter the basic channel #, but not the decimal point, which resulted in the blue screen. So an A/B switch does not seem to be the answer.

wajo -- this reply was in response to a forum member who inquired about the possibility of having the Philips retain both, OTA, and analog/QAM scanned channels in memory, which turned out to be not possible. In this case, the A/B switch was an RF unit, switching between an OTA antenna and the cable feed, being a totally different issue.

While I had the Philips unpacked and hooked up, I obviously checked out a number of other features to familiarize myself with this particular brand. This is when I realized that in addition to the tuner problem, the Philips had other issues, such as an awkward menu and editing system, and a poorly designed remote. OTOH, the "SKIP # # #" feature is something neat I haven't seen in other DVDR brands, which - thanks to your immensely informative and impressive documentation of the 3575 /3576 series - was made known to the average user.

Kelson -- I ran the cable feed to a 900 MHz 2-way splitter, and connected one RF output leg to the Philips, and the other to the Pioneer (the passthru RF outputs of each DVDR were left open).
From each DVDR, I connected their respective composite OUT lines to an A/V switching box, whose output was connected to the TV. Thus, switching between the two DVDRs, with both displaying the same selected channels each time, one could see the obvious difference in picture quality.
I only set this up like this to help me isolate the possible reason for the Philips' poor performance.Thanks. Pretty straight forward and simple. I used an almost identical setup when I was comparing the PQ of a pair of CECB's (Zenith DTT900 and Digital Stream DTX9900). Fast switching makes differences in PQ immediately evident.

All this talk makes me think I need to keep the Toshiba RD XS54.

Umm... yeah.

A lot of us who have responded to your initial post may have lost track of which DVR you own. Your Toshiba is probably one of the most worshipped and adored recorders ever made, which is why you've received offers to sell it at pretty much the price you paid for it years ago. A *working* Toshiba RD-XS54 is worth its weight in gold to some people, because there has been nothing like it on the market since it was discontinued.

BUT- and its a big but depending on your usage patterns- it is getting older by the minute and the achilles heel for all these vintage Toshibas is reliability of the burner and eventual hard drive corruption. Also, the overall quality of blank media slid into the toilet after these were discontinued, and their burners are not equipped with proper strategies to handle such crap media, causing many problems for owners who make a lot of DVDs (the vintage Toshibas fail to burn a lot of the newer media). For the $500 you have been offered for your Toshiba, you can easily get an equivalent new Pioneer 460 from Canada which should carry you a few years longer than the Toshiba in terms of modern blank DVD compatability. There would, however, be a sacrifice in features: Toshiba had an exclusive with certain obscure recording options like anamorphic widescreen override, thumbnails for individual chapters as well as titles, custom background screens for menus, etc. If you make extensive use of these features, then keep the Toshiba and stock up on blank discs that work well with it. If not, you might benefit by swapping to a new Pioneer.

Toshibas ARE repairable, but it takes some effort to do it yourself and the results are not always worth it. There are several excellent threads here that cover Toshiba DVD/HDD repair options. In brief, the burners cause the most grief and DIY burner swaps are a compromise at best. If the burner goes dead, the best option is to have Toshiba replace it using their flat-fee repair service (about $130). The hard drives are more easily replaced by the user, just follow the procedures outlined in the related AVS threads. Note each Toshiba model has slightly different requirements, be sure to follow the suggestions for your exact unit.

Until recently, several other brands such as Pioneer had more flexible DIY repair options than Toshiba: with a bit of trickery and the right tools you could replace the burner with off-the-shelf computer drives. But since 2006, many recorders have opted for very peculiar burner designs which have no comparable cheap off-the-shelf replacements. So burner repairs are now a bitch for almost all of us, requiring mfr service to be of any real use. Luckily the newer Pioneer and Panasonic and Phillips burners seem to be a bit more durable than the older models, so its a wash. The hard drives remain user replaceable on most units, you just need to buy one with the correct connector (EIDE or SATA) and sometimes a specific size, also do some setup programming with the recorder remote or front panel buttons.

A lot of us who have responded to your initial post may have lost track of which DVR you own.Nah, not me. I was aware the whole time. Because that model uses an IR blaster too, that's why I brought up the idea - so he didn't feel the need to replace it just because it was lacking a digital tuner, and I wanted to stress it's versatility. I don't think anybody really forgot so much as they were just adding to that idea.

If he wanted to conserve the Toshiba and just use a 3576 at his main TV for time shifting (maybe after the TVGOS goes kaput), he could put the Toshiba at a second set and just use it for stuff he wants to edit or otherwise fiddle with (and transfer). That would make good sense, but I certainly wouldn't give the Toshiba away - it's too valuable.

25 years from now, we will find this Tosh 54 sitting all shiny and preserved in a secluded garage, just like when we discover a completely restored GTO muscle car just sitting eternally-parked in somebody's garage! :D I wonder if it will be celebrated one day and be put in a museum exhibit for ancient consumer video hardware...

25 years from now, we will find this Tosh 54 sitting all shiny and preserved in a secluded garage, just like when we discover a completely restored GTO muscle car just sitting eternally-parked in somebody's garage! :D I wonder if it will be celebrated one day and be put in a museum exhibit for ancient consumer video hardware...More likely the electronics recycling bin. How many people are yearning for a Sony Walkman portable cassette player? In 25 years these will be just as primitive.

I think there is more to it than just being primitive. When something reaches its pinnacle and an evolutionary dead-end, together, it is not unusual that it will be seen as a notable punctuation in the timeline. While I offered the gto comparison in jest, I do acknowledge a certain relevance to the comparison. Perhaps, it may not be worthy of a glass case in a museum, but I would not discount that the few remaining owners of these machines will heartily covet them far longer than their functionality would justify. ;)

If something better came along, I'd have no problem getting rid of the ones I have.

I just don't see that happening right now. Even with the TR-50 you can't edit (and the Sony and LG DVR's).

Maybe someday.

Umm... yeah. A lot of us who have responded to your initial post may have lost track of which DVR you own. Your Toshiba is probably one of the most worshipped and adored recorders ever made, which is why you've received offers to sell it at pretty much the price you paid for it years ago. A *working* Toshiba RD-XS54 is worth its weight in gold to some people, because there has been nothing like it on the market since it was discontinued.

This explains why the person who called was manic. Just *had* to have it. I had put up a post about thinking of upgrading and boom, that was it. He tracked me down. Other than a couple of quirks, a bunch fixed with the firmware, it's a remarkable piece of equipment. When I had more time I could watch programs I recorded on my PC across the room with the network in the little remote and even control the unit. And that's not even talking about the bulky manual that came with it. A true second generation and refinement of this model would have been a true TiVo killer. I have used it to transfer all my DV tapes and a good number of VHS tapes. The output features for burning to DVD are also good. The TVGOS works pretty well and it's great to search for programs and just hit "do it!" to record them. The ability to record high quality music with lower quality video is also sweet. Man... I think you're making me realize how much I'd miss it!!!

BUT- and its a big but depending on your usage patterns- it is getting older by the minute and the achilles heel for all these vintage Toshibas is reliability of the burner and eventual hard drive corruption...If you make extensive use of these features, then keep the Toshiba and stock up on blank discs that work well with it. If not, you might benefit by swapping to a new Pioneer.
I agree although I don't think that the Pio 460 will replace the TVGOS, which is nice. If it's just the hard drive corruption, if that could be replaced, essentially it's still the same machine sans the DVD burner, which I'd hope to replace although still not lose the convenience of time shifting. I'm not sure about exporting data but last I remember this simply wasn't possible. Regarding the other features, I do record HD material and being able to burn it in widescreen format is so sweet.

Toshibas ARE repairable, but it takes some effort to do it yourself and the results are not always worth it. There are several excellent threads here that cover Toshiba DVD/HDD repair options. In brief, the burners cause the most grief and DIY burner swaps are a compromise at best. If the burner goes dead, the best option is to have Toshiba replace it using their flat-fee repair service (about $130). The hard drives are more easily replaced by the user, just follow the procedures outlined in the related AVS threads. Note each Toshiba model has slightly different requirements, be sure to follow the suggestions for your exact unit....The hard drives remain user replaceable on most units, you just need to buy one with the correct connector (EIDE or SATA) and sometimes a specific size, also do some setup programming with the recorder remote or front panel buttons.
This is what worries me. Thank you for telling me about the flat fee repair service which sounds like it would be perfect should I have problems. I looked at some of the other threads but it almost seemed as though replacement - at least of the burner - was all but impossible given different leads and connections, at least in one instance. I'm just glad that the HDD is replaceable, which is very key - without that, the DVR is essentially dead. I only use good DVD media and so far, for the most part, it has worked well and with few errors. On occasion it will spit out disks as not good media but I remember the Pio I had too did that as well.

My desire was to consider swapping this one out for a Pioneer 560 or 660 or the one which has PAL/NTSC world playback. But you lose the TVGOS from what I understand and I also question how well it works in the US since it was designed to work in Europe first. The price tag is also $600 for those and I'm not sure it's worth the price at this point. The Philips was an idea for $250 but it seems that it is such a hassle that it really isn't worth it. The old Pioneers were a better bet and carried a decent price tag of around 400. These go for around that or up to 500+ but the 560 doesn't have Ethernet, which I guess could be a big deal - but at $130 extra... hmmm... all these choices. The new pioneers DO have some neat new features as well... decisions....

Thanks SO much for helping me think about this decision. It's hard to believe that there is such a decision to be made and I'm hoping, like many of you, to avoid the obsolescence.

Since we're being so exhaustive (or should I say exhausting;)) with this discussion, you should bear in mind that the TVGOS feature ought not be an overly-weighted part of your decision whether to keep the Toshiba or replace it. All of the existing DVD recorders with TVGOS require an analog pilot signal from cable or OTA in order to load the schedule data every night. But it is becoming more and more clear from member reports and statements issued by broadcasters that this whole analog TVGOS arrangement is going bye-bye once the country switches to ATSC-only next February. There is endless chatter about promised workarounds but every industry promise is contradicted by a fuggedaboudit statement the next day. Enjoy the TVGOS while it lasts, but know it will not last much longer as an available feature of the unit. Other than recently discontinued Panasonics, no other DVD/HDD makes have included the TVGOS feature since 2005, so don't hold that lack against any possible replacement DVR. (The TVGOS company has developed a new ATSC-based digital system but this would only be of use installed on new yet-to-be-released recorders: it isn't backwards compatible with the old non-ATSC recorders like your Toshiba.)

Toshiba's have the $130.00 flat fee repair service? I didn't know that. As far as I knew, only Panasonic had it.

By the way, I think the Philips can record music (with and without video), too. And the Pio's have that "jukebox" feature where you can transfer your CD's right to the hard drive.

The TVGOS may still work with cable after February, as long as your cableco is still passing the analog data. But who knows how long that'll last. As they're taking the digital local signals now and converting them to analog, they're stripping the signal out and not bothering to replace it in a lot of areas.

If you want to still use the free TVGOS service, the TR-50, if it ever really materializes, looks like the only thing coming up that will have it. You could pair that with a recorder for offloading. But it's only ATSC - no QAM. There are various setups you could use for ATSC, but for QAM, the best solution is the Philips or Magnavox.

There may very well be some recorders with the ATSC-based TVGOS coming up in the future, but none are in sight yet. And who knows if there'll even be any HDD models around anymore.

I'm really tempted to order one of those new Maggie's myself from Walmart.com and at least try it out, because there isn't much in the way of reviews yet, and I know a lot of people are really anxious to hear some. It sounds like it could be slightly improved from even the 3576H, at least in some ways.

As long as you are getting good lifespan out of it, the $130 is kind of like the retro-active maintenance plan, eh? ;) (I hope I don't have to use it for a while, though)

As long as you are getting good lifespan out of it, the $130 is kind of like the retro-active maintenance plan, eh? ;) (I hope I don't have to use it for a while, though)

Actually, a better deal than most extended service plans: you pay for it if you need it, and if you happen to be lucky enough to have a recorder that runs for years and years without breaking down, you save the $$$.

Well, that is exactly the perk I was hinting at! ;)

The Toshiba flat fee burner repair I referred to earlier is not as "officially" promoted and supported as Panasonics is (actually, even Panasonic denies it exists to half the folks who call in.) I just happened to see it mentioned several times recently on various forums by Toshiba owners as well as a couple Pioneer owners who claim these firms will "match" the Panasonic repair program if you pester them about it firmly enough. Perhaps someone who has recently repaired their Toshiba can chime in here with their experience?

The Toshiba flat fee burner repair I referred to earlier is not as "officially" promoted and supported as Panasonics is (actually, even Panasonic denies it exists to half the folks who call in.) I just happened to see it mentioned several times recently on various forums by Toshiba owners as well as a couple Pioneer owners who claim these firms will "match" the Panasonic repair program if you pester them about it firmly enough. Perhaps someone who has recently repaired their Toshiba can chime in here with their experience?

this was 2 years ago...
i had to replace the drive unit in my tosh dr2 recorder (a dvdr-not a dvr. dvrs are stbs-set top boxes with a hard drive-afaik and iirc).
i sent it to 'tops' in lowell, ma with a money order for $140-had it back a week later. i'm guessing the $140 was a flat fee.
i feel these particular machines (i have 2) are worth repairing and hanging onto.

next time however, i will open it up, check for dirty spindle, etc and clean the area.
(idea-thanks to 'digido') before i spend $.

I read yesterday of a new Pioneer with BluRay DVD burner, VHS, and a 320GB HDD being released Oct 1...man, was I excited...until I read the rest of the story and found out it was being released in Japan...something we'll never see in the US

The article I read said that a US release date had not been set... yet. Maybe there's hope! Also, hope for a VHSless model? :D

Pioneer really must be losing its collective mind: a BluRay/HDD/VHS combo for the Japanese market? Are they nuts? Who the hell in Japan has even soiled their elitist hands on lowly VHS since 1997?

There's absolutely no point to this design unless they're hoping to amortize it with sales to North Americans, who fixedly refuse to buy a DVD recorder unless it has a VHS deck glued to it. So maybe we'll get lucky after all. Then again, given Pioneers partnership with Sony to co-market the same DVD/HDD units since 2006, this machine is likely 90% Sony and 10% Pioneer. We'll have to wait and see...

Anybody have a link to the article?

It's Panasonic. Not Pioneer.

And there are models without the VHS. Here:

Panasonic BR Recorder (http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/08/25/panasonic-intros-dmr-br360v-blu-ray-vhs-combo-player/)

Reminds me of this machine (http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/betamaxhd.html).:rolleyes:

Here's an even more curious statement from a news release on this Panasonic item:

"The VHS deck is for dubbing movies to Blu-ray, DVD or the HDD, and will not be able to actually play VHS movies, according to Japanese media reports". Huh? That statement should send Jack Valenti turning over in his urn.

Complete article here: http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/Panasonic-launches-Blu-ray-player-with-VHS.html

(...)"The VHS deck is for dubbing movies to Blu-ray, DVD or the HDD, and will not be able to actually play VHS movies, according to Japanese media reports". (...)

Panasonic, Pioneer or whoever: I still really don't get this VHS thing at all. AFAIK, no one has even seen a VHS tape in Japan since the day DVD recorders went on sale. They were outlawed or used for landfill or something. Introducing a new hi-def recorder in Japan with built-in VHS player makes about as much sense as Apple introducing a new iPod with a built-in cassette walkman for Japan-only. Here in the USA, yeah, the VHS part is still a selling point for many consumers. But in Japan? Doesn't compute, unless this all points to a global unit designed to be marketed everywhere. Cross your fingers.

Here's an even more curious statement from a news release on this Panasonic item:

"The VHS deck is for dubbing movies to Blu-ray, DVD or the HDD, and will not be able to actually play VHS movies, according to Japanese media reports". Huh? That statement should send Jack Valenti turning over in his urn.

Might I suggest that this was a typo of sorts, and what it really meant to say was that the VHS deck cannot record, but only playback. If you change the phrase from:


...VHS deck is for dubbing movies to Blu-ray, DVD or the HDD, and will not be able to actually play VHS movies

to

...VHS deck is for dubbing movies to Blu-ray, DVD or the HDD, and will not be able to actually record VHS movies

It then makes at least some sense. I of course don't know if I'm right, but at least this is what I suspect happened. I don't know anyone who would buy a Blu-Ray disk and then dub the contents to a VHS tape.:eek:

Maybe the VHS side is actually D-VHS! :eek: