I have seen on this forum where calibrators measure the black levels on the kuros and panny sets and have some special number for it. How much darker on a % basis can they get from where they are at now?

I'm just curious of how darker we will see next year vs this year.

0.00000000000 FL Pioneer has already demoed a 0 FL display (CES 2008), and it should come out january (or something close to that) of 2010 (stupid 18-month product cycle for the 9g/10g transition).

how much more black could it be.....none...none more black :D. sorry - love spinal tap:p

0.00000000000 FL Pioneer has already demoed a 0 FL display (CES 2008), and it should come out january (or something close to that) of 2010 (stupid 18-month product cycle for the 9g/10g transition).

What % is that from the 9G levels?

how much more black could it be.....none...none more black :D. sorry - love spinal tap:p

LOL ..........me too

"smell the glove"

9G Pio's are at 0.001 FL, meaning that the amount of light emitted from a black screen is equal to 1 ten thousandths of a single candle in a dark room

Based on a 9G level of .002fl if the 10G is absolute 0 then that would be 100% better.
Based on what I saw in person there is a definate difference between the 8G and 9G. The 9G after about 10-15 seconds switched to a complete black when there was no active content similar to what we are going to expect on the 10G's with active content

LOL ..........me too

"smell the glove"

"you should've seen the cover they wanted...it wasn't a glove i'll tell you that." lol:p

Based on a 9G level of .002fl if the 10G is absolute 0 then that would be 100% better.
Based on what I saw in person there is a definate difference between the 8G and 9G. The 9G after about 10-15 seconds switched to a complete black when there was no active content similar to what we are going to expect on the 10G's with active content

I was never that great in math, but wouldn't that be considered infintely better rather than 100% better?!

Anyway, regardless, most of this just doesn't really matter. Under most normal viewing conditions there will be the presence of some ambient light, the result of which is that you will not be able to tell the difference between super good almost pure blacks and pure black. And to be honest, I can't wait so that we can get off the whole which set is blackest discussion and focus on many of the other picture attributes which are important as well.

Even with today's sets, unless you are viewing in a totally dark room you aren't going to be able to tell much difference in black levels among the top tier manufacturers. Sure you can measure it, just like you can measure Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) for Amps and say that one Amp has .0001% THD and the other has .00035% THD but no human can ever hear that. Just like no human can tell the difference in black levels if there is any ambient light at all.

Even with today's sets, unless you are viewing in a totally dark room you aren't going to be able to tell much difference in black levels among the top tier manufacturers.Completely false. Get the top manufacturers in a room with a 60 watt lamp and you will STILL see a difference.

And to be honest, I can't wait so that we can get off the whole which set is blackest discussion and focus on many of the other picture attributes which are important as well.

Me too! :eek:

Completely false. Get the top manufacturers in a room with a 60 watt lamp and you will STILL see a difference.

Perhaps you didn't read my quote properly? I said you can't tell much difference. Which I stand by. Regardless, my whole point is that black level is becoming increasingly less and less important to worry about as all of the Plasmas coming out are getting pretty good at this one measurement. You can't really go wrong with any of the new sets in terms of black level. Yes Pioneer is slightly better than Panasonic, yadda yadda, but all sets are pretty damn good now.

Its at the point now where other factors are becoming more of a differentiator, which is great.

the knobber i dont want to make you feel offended or disrespected but i think D-nice credit is more validating then yours, especially how you are saying that "black level less and less important". that is incorrect in so many ways its one of the most important elements that makes a tv look top notch.

what that being said the black level does get reduced if you have extreame ambient light, However no tv (not even lcd) will look great with alot of lighiting.

in regards to the Op well if the tv can produce blacks where you cant tell the frame from the tv then thats a good way of saying how much it can go deeper, or where the center of the tv is super black and the outer edge is not ....

also the measurement on the 9g is after break in and calibrated 0.00066 MIL


Perhaps you didn't read my quote properly? I said you can't tell much difference. Which I stand by. Regardless, my whole point is that black level is becoming increasingly less and less important to worry about as all of the Plasmas coming out are getting pretty good at this one measurement. You can't really go wrong with any of the new sets in terms of black level. Yes Pioneer is slightly better than Panasonic, yadda yadda, but all sets are pretty damn good now.

Its at the point now where other factors are becoming more of a differentiator, which is great.

Perhaps you didn't read my quote properly? I said you can't tell much difference. Which I stand by. Regardless, my whole point is that black level is becoming increasingly less and less important to worry about as all of the Plasmas coming out are getting pretty good at this one measurement. You can't really go wrong with any of the new sets in terms of black level. Yes Pioneer is slightly better than Panasonic, yadda yadda, but all sets are pretty damn good now.

Its at the point now where other factors are becoming more of a differentiator, which is great.

I think the marketplace affirms this as well :cool:

Perhaps you didn't read my quote properly? I said you can't tell much difference.Have you actually conducted a test like this? I have. And I stand by my comment.

I think the marketplace affirms this as well :cool:The US display market is driven by cheap prices not blacks or true PQ. Why do you think Vizio, Insignia, RCA, and all of the other "economy" brands trump any and every other manufacturer out there?

The US display market is driven by cheap prices not blacks or true PQ.

Truer words have never been spoken.

^^^ For the most part, true. But I would venture to guess that those seeking other than just economy pricing are finding only subtle visible differences among the top brands. These differences include colors and black levels.

^^^ For the most part, true. But I would venture to guess that those seeking other than just economy pricing are finding only subtle visible differences among the top brands. These differences include colors and black levels.Really? So that's why LCDs sell more panels????

^^^ I'm not quite sure what your point is here. LCD's come in more sizes than plasma. Many of them are just as if not more expensive than plasmas of comparable sizes. Some buyers prefer the PQ on LCD. Others prefer them for gaming. There are a quite a few reasons for the higher sales of which I've only listed some.
Can you be specific?

There are a quite a few reasons for the higher sales of which I've only listed some. You've listed none. Price rules the US display market PERIOD. PQ and black levels have nothing to do with it.


Let me know when you can grasp that fact.

0.00000000000 FL Pioneer has already demoed a 0 FL display (CES 2008), and it should come out january (or something close to that) of 2010 (stupid 18-month product cycle for the 9g/10g transition).

Hi,

Is there really going to be a 18 month wait before the G10 Pioneers come out? I just assumed it would be around the same time every year - a few months after shows like CES etc!

Bazzy!

Hi,

Is there really going to be a 18 month wait before the G10 Pioneers come out?Yes

You've listed none. Price rules the US display market PERIOD. PQ and black levels have nothing to do with it.


Let me know when you can grasp that fact.

Well, with your LOUD emphasis on price, it's logical to assume that price was the main or sole reason for your kuro purchase. PQ and black levels had nothing to do with it.
Is that the fact you wish for me to grasp! :cool:

Well, with your LOUD emphasis on price, it's logical to assume that price was the main or sole reason for your kuro purchase. PQ and black levels had nothing to do with it.
Is that the fact you wish for me to grasp! :cool:The US consumer market is driven by price. Since you are stuck on stupid, that means mainstream America cares more about price than they do blacks and/or PQ. I don't classify myself as a member of mainstream America. I'm an enthusiast and want the best PQ period. I don't place a price tag wanting the best. I know you do ;)

Let the masses have their cheap displays, just as long as they don't stop making the good stuff ;) People can try to convince themselves the difference is small all they want, they just don't know what they're missing.

The US display market is driven by cheap prices not blacks or true PQ. Why do you think Vizio, Insignia, RCA, and all of the other "economy" brands trump any and every other manufacturer out there?

I agree. If the market 1 mile from your house is selling gas for 3.89 a gallon, and the market right next to your work is selling it for 3.25 a gallon, which one will Americans choose 98% of the time?

The US consumer market is driven by price. Since you are stuck on stupid, that means mainstream America cares more about price than they do blacks and/or PQ. I don't classify myself as a member of mainstream America. I'm an enthusiast and want the best PQ period. I don't place a price tag wanting the best. I know you do ;)

Really? I find this absurd. Suppose the Pioneer were 100K - still want one at that price?

Of course the US consumer market is, as is every other market in the world, driven by price. Except for the perhaps some uber rich - we always take price into consideration in determining whether it the item, whatever the item (wine, a cars, TVs, are just a few of the many types of products that engender communities of enthusiasts who still consider price a primary factor in their individual decisions) is worth the price asked for it.

And there are many different segments to each market. Pioneer appeals to those on the high end, Vizio to those on the low.

A lot more people eat McDonalds than Chez Panisse? Not cause it's better.

The US consumer market is driven by price. Since you are stuck on stupid, that means mainstream America cares more about price than they do blacks and/or PQ. I don't classify myself as a member of mainstream America. I'm an enthusiast and want the best PQ period. I don't place a price tag wanting the best. I know you do ;)

Ouch. A loud reply and now an insult. Are you trying to hurt my feelings?:eek:

I think most people want the most bang for the buck. Lowest price alone is not the end all otherwise the roads with be full of Yugos!
As with other viewers of their respective plasmas, the shortcomings of your particular set is insignificant compared to other preferred qualities. Welcome back to the mainstream :cool:

Really? I find this absurd. Suppose the Pioneer were 100K - still want one at that price?


The Pio is only 33% more than the next step down 800U. 100K is quite a little overboard unless you price the 800U at $66,000. Some people would pay 100% more for greater PQ. If I had the money, I sure would.

Ouch. A loud reply and now an insult. Are you trying to hurt my feelings?:eek:

I think most people want the most bang for the buck. Lowest price alone is not the end all otherwise the roads with be full of Yugos!
As with other viewers of their respective plasmas, the shortcomings of your particular set is insignificant compared to other preferred qualities. Welcome back to the mainstream :cool:

You really are fighting a losing battle here. I've tried this line of logic before and there are, for lack of a better description, Kuro zealots who have some form of personal identification with a piece of electronic equipment such that they apply a reality distortion field to any criticisms. Most of that is grounded on the objective truth that their display of choice has the lowest idle luminescence.


A material number of these display emit a high frequency buzz. Doesn't matter, we have the best blacks.
A material number of these displays have blotchy application of darkening / anti reflective coating. Doesn't matter, we have the best blacks.
Out of the box, color accuracy and brightness are below several other manufacturers. Doesn't matter, we have the best blacks.
Pioneer has crippled the 2008 Kuro's picture adjustment when compared to last year, thus forcing enthusiasts towards Elites. Doesn't matter, we have the best blacks


Then, there is the argument that everyone would want this particular display, IF they only could afford it. Well, now, doesn't everyone want to feel rich and if you were rich, then certainly you would get a Kuro. So, feel rich and buy one anyway. Such tripe. I have sat this year's Kuro next to nearly every other major brand, Samsung, LG, Panasonic. In a day lit room, I couldn't really tell a difference at all. In a dark room, I could tell some difference. Kuro had slightly better blacks (not numerically...real observations...so don't bother arguing...because it's my perception), Samsung and LG had better colors. Panasonic and LG had better aesthetic designs.

Well, I can afford it. I've bought an Elite RPTV in the past because I could clearly see the difference. This year when I did my evaluations, I found far too many problems with the 2008 Kuro designs to justify a purchase even if it were priced competitively, much less at a premium.

There are many reasons other than price to get a different brand than Pioneer. If you really want the best processing, buy a Runco. It's only 15-20k and if you want the best, money shouldn't matter, right? I helped a friend who truly is stinking rich, put one of these on his wall after returning his second 6020 for buzzing. Sheesh...these Kuros have a nice picture, but the zealotry is just freaking weird.

Screenshot this post because I'm making a prediction. In 36 months, Pioneer will either be priced within 10% of its competitors or will have exited the Plasma market. We've reached the point of diminishing returns when it comes to the whole black issue. At least two manufacturers have 0FL units in testing and all will have them in 12 months.

I love the example cited above about the Total Harmonic Distortion. So, true. It's almost as rich as the guy who tried to sell me a tweeter that could produce sounds I couldn't hear, because it was "the best." The best at producing sound at a frequency beyond human hearing...brilliant...my dog will be impressed!!

*sigh*
rwr

How black would the 10G Kuro be compared to a black hole?

Are there alternative universes where Kuros are blacker than black holes?

You really are fighting a losing battle here. I've tried this line of logic before and there are, for lack of a better description, Kuro zealots who have some form of personal identification with a piece of electronic equipment such that they apply a reality distortion field to any criticisms. Most of that is grounded on the objective truth that their display of choice has the lowest idle luminescence.


A material number of these display emit a high frequency buzz. Doesn't matter, we have the best blacks.
A material number of these displays have blotchy application of darkening / anti reflective coating. Doesn't matter, we have the best blacks.
Out of the box, color accuracy and brightness are below several other manufacturers. Doesn't matter, we have the best blacks.
Pioneer has crippled the 2008 Kuro's picture adjustment when compared to last year, thus forcing enthusiasts towards Elites. Doesn't matter, we have the best blacks


Then, there is the argument that everyone would want this particular display, IF they only could afford it. Well, now, doesn't everyone want to feel rich and if you were rich, then certainly you would get a Kuro. So, feel rich and buy one anyway. Such tripe. I have sat this year's Kuro next to nearly every other major brand, Samsung, LG, Panasonic. In a day lit room, I couldn't really tell a difference at all. In a dark room, I could tell some difference. Kuro had slightly better blacks (not numerically...real observations...so don't bother arguing...because it's my perception), Samsung and LG had better colors. Panasonic and LG had better aesthetic designs.

Well, I can afford it. I've bought an Elite RPTV in the past because I could clearly see the difference. This year when I did my evaluations, I found far too many problems with the 2008 Kuro designs to justify a purchase even if it were priced competitively, much less at a premium.

There are many reasons other than price to get a different brand than Pioneer. If you really want the best processing, buy a Runco. It's only 15-20k and if you want the best, money shouldn't matter, right? I helped a friend who truly is stinking rich, put one of these on his wall after returning his second 6020 for buzzing. Sheesh...these Kuros have a nice picture, but the zealotry is just freaking weird.

Screenshot this post because I'm making a prediction. In 36 months, Pioneer will either be priced within 10% of its competitors or will have exited the Plasma market. We've reached the point of diminishing returns when it comes to the whole black issue. At least two manufacturers have 0FL units in testing and all will have them in 12 months.

I love the example cited above about the Total Harmonic Distortion. So, true. It's almost as rich as the guy who tried to sell me a tweeter that could produce sounds I couldn't hear, because it was "the best." The best at producing sound at a frequency beyond human hearing...brilliant...my dog will be impressed!!

*sigh*
rwr
Wow, how do you know what I'm thinking. Strangly enough you word my thoughts better then I do.

How black would the 10G Kuro be compared to a black hole?

Are there alternative universes where Kuros are blacker than black holes?

That made me laugh a little.

Really? I find this absurd. Suppose the Pioneer were 100K - still want one at that price? Sure would.

Of course the US consumer market is, as is every other market in the world, driven by price.No it isn't. The US market wants it all and demands that it is the cheapest. It doesn't work like that and is the reason we are in the gutter now. Hopefully we as American will wake up care more about quality than price.

Sure would.

No it isn't. The US market wants it all and demands that it is the cheapest. It doesn't work like that and is the reason we are in the gutter now. Hopefully we as American will wake up care more about quality than price.
Fortunately, we have open boarders for egress. Might is suggest you resettle in a country for which you hold less contempt?

To your other point, as someone who holds an advance degree in economics, I'm afraid I have to point out that your statement is patently false. The law of price elasticity (look it up) is universal except in the most micro of circustances.

You, for example have a completely inelastic demand for Kuro. You have developed a lot of knowledge around it and share that knowledge. A good thing, except that you then become the local radical Cleric of Kuro with a Holy War on any other point of view.

America's price elasticity is no different than any other developed country I've studied or visited. Try selling some of the fancy branded table wines gobbled up in this country over in France. They will stick with their local and much cheaper products.

Ever see someone bargain down the price of Paprika in Budapest? I have...the woman was ruthless to save a few pennies.

It's universal. Most items have a high degree of associated price elasticity.

As for America being in the gutter. We have the largest GDP of any country and the lowest unemployment of any developed nation. I suggest you try getting a job in France.

Do we have problems? Sure. Do our politicians seem capable of getting past party vitriol to make it happen? No, and we should fire the lot of them, before they do drag us into the gutter.

Fortunately, we have open boarders for egress. Might is suggest you resettle in a country for which you hold less contempt?

To your other point, as someone who holds an advance degree in economics, I'm afraid I have to point out that your statement is patently false. The law of price elasticity (look it up) is universal except in the most micro of circustances.

You, for example have a completely inelastic demand for Kuro. You have developed a lot of knowledge around it and share that knowledge. A good thing, except that you then become the local radical Cleric of Kuro with a Holy War on any other point of view.

America's price elasticity is no different than any other developed country I've studied or visited. Try selling some of the fancy branded table wines gobbled up in this country over in France. They will stick with their local and much cheaper products.

Ever see someone bargain down the price of Paprika in Budapest? I have...the woman was ruthless to save a few pennies.

It's universal. Most items have a high degree of associated price elasticity.

As for America being in the gutter. We have the largest GDP of any country and the lowest unemployment of any developed nation. I suggest you try getting a job in France.

Do we have problems? Sure. Do our politicians seem capable of getting past party vitriol to make it happen? No, and we should fire the lot of them, before they do drag us into the gutter.Rant with zero substance? Do better or craw back under your rock.

And don't EVER question my patriotism to this country.

We have the largest GDP of any country and the lowest unemployment of any developed nation.

If you want to compare GDP in a fair way, try to compare GDP per capita... There are quite a few countries with bigger GDP per capita than USA.
Regarding unemployment - Japan must be an undeveloped nation then :D

Rant with zero substance? Do better or crawl back under your rock.


+1.
I got about halfway thru that rant and it started to sound like charlie browns teacher to me. Waawaawaa..waawaa.waaa.waaa

Sure would.

No it isn't. The US market wants it all and demands that it is the cheapest. It doesn't work like that and is the reason we are in the gutter now. Hopefully we as American will wake up care more about quality than price.

Yeah, I used to have some respect for your posts because you showed an enthusiasm for the subject and to some degree some accurate inside information. But your understanding of markets is just wrong. In all markets, everywhere, no matter what the product is, no matter what location in the world you are in, if there is competition, then price is a determinative factor. So is quality. But people place a value on what it is worth to them. If there are acceptable alterantives for cheaper - well, a certain segment of the market, again, any market, will gravitate towards the acceptable cheaper alternative. Some, such as yourself, will not. You are highly inelastic. But in discretionary purchase, of which TVs certainly are, that's unusual. Discretionary purchase are, as a rule, highly elastic.

Of course, manufacturers understand this intimately. They will introduce low, medium and high end products (so long as each is profitable) to capture as much of the market as possible. Alternatively, they may decide to focus on one segment only. Pioneer has largely decided to cede lower prices and to compete on quality. Vizio has done the opposite. Samsung and Pansonic battle it out for the middle.

Pioneer gives up on large segments of the market by placing itself at high end of the curve - but it knows that it can't go too high. If it priced it's top quality set at 100K it might sell one - to the only person I've ever encountered who says with a straight face "I don't place a price tag on wanting the best". The rest of the world wants the best (of course we all do), we just do place a price tag on it. . .

Rant with zero substance? Do better or craw back under your rock.

And don't EVER question my patriotism to this country.
LoL...

rant |rant|
verb [ intrans. ]
speak or shout at length in a wild, impassioned way, often without facts or reason

Rants seldom make specific references to economic theory and almost always have personal attacks.

Feel free to use all the CAPS you like, however, I made no mention of patriotism, simply suggested that you might be happier in a place that was not "in the gutter."

Your words not mine. I do not think our country is in the gutter as your statement suggests. In addition, I even let go the fact that you stated our country was in the gutter rather than the economy. Both are incorrect, but had I focused on what you actually said rather than making a kind assumption of what you meant, then that might have been more akin to questioning patriotism.

Lest anyone not have a clear enough mental picture. Gutters are where waste reside. Gutters often provide pathways for fecal matter and decaying plants and animals. I do not see America that way. If my pointing that out makes you feel your patriotism has been called in question, perhaps you should chose your words more carefully. You certainly do when extolling the virtues of Kuros.

So, if you would like to revise your remarks, feel free. Which is in the gutter? The country, it's economy, neither?

If you want to compare GDP in a fair way, try to compare GDP per capita... There are quite a few countries with bigger GDP per capita than USA.
Regarding unemployment - Japan must be an undeveloped nation then :D
Quite true and I considered it, but given that Luxembourg has the highest GDP per Capita, I wasn't sure that was the best measure either.

Your point about Japan is correct however, I hadn't seen their updated figures for 2008; thank you for the correction.

By giving in to the temptation of superlatives (Largest...Lowest), I diluted my own point, which is that, opinions of our resident Kuro expert aside, the empirical facts do not support that "we are in the gutter."

Making any argument based on a superlative is a bad idea, which, incidentally ties back to the main topic, blacks. As I pointed out earlier, Pioneer has pinned its future largely on the superlative that their Kuros are the most black. Heck, the very name evokes it. Uh oh, what happens when they are not, which will happen within 12-18 months. See my previous prediction. They will either change pricing strategies or exit the market.

Yeah, I used to have some respect for your posts because you showed an enthusiasm for the subject and to some degree some accurate inside information. But your understanding of markets is just wrong. In all markets, everywhere, no matter what the product is, no matter what location in the world you are in, if there is competition, then price is a determinative factor. So is quality. But people place a value on what it is worth to them. If there are acceptable alterantives for cheaper - well, a certain segment of the market, again, any market, will gravitate towards the acceptable cheaper alternative. Some, such as yourself, will not. You are highly inelastic. But in discretionary purchase, of which TVs certainly are, that's unusual. Discretionary purchase are, as a rule, highly elastic.

Of course, manufacturers understand this intimately. They will introduce low, medium and high end products (so long as each is profitable) to capture as much of the market as possible. Alternatively, they may decide to focus on one segment only. Pioneer has largely decided to cede lower prices and to compete on quality. Vizio has done the opposite. Samsung and Pansonic battle it out for the middle.

Pioneer gives up on large segments of the market by placing itself at high end of the curve - but it knows that it can't go too high. If it priced it's top quality set at 100K it might sell one - to the only person I've ever encountered who says with a straight face "I don't place a price tag on wanting the best". The rest of the world wants the best (of course we all do), we just do place a price tag on it. . .
Excellent and well reasoned presentation. By the definition of some, a Rant. :-)

The economics of the point you raise is bolstered by Pioneer's need to purchase glass from panasonic. Their niche, based largely on the argument of blackest blacks, cannot support the volume necessary to maintain the economies of scale required to vertically integrate in glass manufacturing. My argument is that the marginally viable economics under which they currently operate will collapse completely when other manufacturers match their brand identifying blacks over the next 12-18 months. When that occurs, they will either shift their pricing / brand equation or fail.

LG as the largest manufacturer (and I actually double checked that superlative) and Matsushita, as the holding company for Panasonic, also has those economies and can therefore make products across the whole quality spectrum. Further, they can use profits from mass sales at the lower end to subsidize the top end of the market PG60s, and PZ850s respectively, thus gaining additional share.

My argument is that the marginally viable economics under which they currently operate will collapse completely when other manufacturers match their brand identifying blacks over the next 12-18 months. When that occurs, they will either shift their pricing / brand equation or fail.


I think you are essentially correct. Pioneer has branded themselves as the "quality" manufacturer. To the extent the other players in the market encroach upon the advantages that Pioneer now holds at lower prices, they will, as you rightly point out, lose market share, or (more likely) adjust to the market reality and close the gap on prices. The only way for them not to do so is to produce something that the other manufactures cannot (brand loyalty and snob appeal won't support the prices they are selling at now). To me, it seems increasingly unlikely given the fact that today's TVs already look remarkably good across the board of all the major manufacturers (a point the Pioneer loyalist seem to miss altogether), and next year's are likely to be even closer. But who knows. I certainly don't know what's coming next, maybe Pioneer does do something to differentiate itself enough from its competitors to hold onto the high end of the curve. . .I doubt it, but maybe. My guess is at some point, they'll adjust and lower prices.

Which is a win for all of us consumers - I don't know why anyone would ever think otherwise. . .

But who knows. I certainly don't know what's coming next, maybe Pioneer does do something to differentiate itself enough from its competitors to hold onto the high end of the curve. . ..

Umm.
I think they already have.

New King of TV's (http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2008/07/pioneer_gen_2_kuro_elite_pro111fd_plasma_reviewed_new_king_o f_tvs_if_you_got_the_ransom-2.html)

Since you are stuck on stupid, that means mainstream America cares more about price than they do blacks and/or PQ. I don't classify myself as a member of mainstream America. I'm an enthusiast and want the best PQ period. I don't place a price tag wanting the best. I know you do ;)

Calling another poster "stupid" just beacause they don't align to your way of thinking....hate it when that happens. Guessing there are equally applied forum rules against this.;)


I don't think the majority of posters here(and lurkers like myself) would be considered "mainstream" in terms of our interest in the best display devices. Mainsteam America walks into a B/M and buys that affordable bright screen that the teenage salesman tells them is their favorite. :) Most here want to make an informed decision which can be difficult with all of the bias being thrown about. But the fact is, the great majority of us here still balance perceived quality against cost....otherwise wouldn't you buy a Runco ??

I for one am really struggling with my purchase....I have things narrowed down, but am not sure if the huge premium is worth it especially with the issues that come with it.

I had some flashbacks to econicmcs when I was reading some of this thread.

Few points:
Screenshot this post because I'm making a prediction. In 36 months, Pioneer will either be priced within 10% of its competitors or will have exited the Plasma market. We've reached the point of diminishing returns when it comes to the whole black issue. At least two manufacturers have 0FL units in testing and all will have them in 12 months.
Anyone who doesn't agree with this statment needs to take off their Kuro Fanboy glasses and take a look at how the world really is.

Rant with zero substance? Do better or craw back under your rock.

And don't EVER question my patriotism to this country.
Your an idiot.

Umm.
I think they already have.



You know, if you'd actually had read what I wrote before spouting off, I might give you a little credit for being something other than a knee-jerk kuro zealot. . .

I'm not sure that it's cause of the blacks that I'm surely going to be buying the
PDP-5080HD even if it's not 1080P it still has a better picture than most 1080P's out there.
Blacks FTW

several infractions here

thread closed