monomer'

Good evaluation of the XDE. But, you've got 30 days to make a decision so why not keep it for a couple weeks and view a variety of material?

Granted, I view on a 60" Sony but I've seen no edge artifacts on all but one or two discs. When it happens I agree with you but it's quite rare. My question is; can the condition be caused by file compression on the disc rather than the player? In any case, you've got plenty of time to do a more thorough evaluation.

Anyway, it hasn't cost you $60 for gas. You said you were in town anyway when you bought the XDE. ;)

I like what I've seen so far but I still haven't ruled out returning the XDE and getting a 983.

www.digitaltrends.com


Here's a very positive review from an unbiased source I believe. The reviews of this player reminds me of reviews of King Kong on HD DVD. I thought it was a great transfer while a few others hated it! I have lots of friends who would compare BD and HD DVD to DVD, be disappointed and take the BD and HD DVD players back - it's not a priority for them and they simply don't care enough. I guess every one who has an interest in DVD will have to have a look for themselves.

Good review, although after all the glowing comments about how effective XDE was and how it bested his current "favorite" up-converting player from a "leading manufacturer", to call the XDE technology "questionable" and a list it as a con is very odd and suspicious to me.

IMO and based on my experience with it thus far, the Pros and Cons in the article should have been,

Pros:

• Great picture quality
• 24 frames per second mode
• Very affordable
• XDE technology is a very effective enhancement


Cons:

• Will not replace a Blu-ray player

Doug G... I don't seem to have the choice of turning the sharpness on my Sony PJ 'down' (or de-emphasizing) as its always at minimum (0) anyways. An increase in the sharpness on my Sony also increases noise... not terribly mind you but I don't think it needs added sharpness and so it stays at minimum. So I don't have the ability to reduce the sharpness as you're able to do on your JVC. Actually the added sharpness of the XDE is really quite good, its only the small background details that are bugging me. I know I could probably mitigate that by sitting in the back row (about 16 feet back) but I really want it to look good from both rows of seats. I know I could move the seats back but there is somewhat of a null (in the lower frequencies due to room modes) in the middle, so for the sake of maintaining audio nirvana I have to leave the seating positions as is.

Arkiedan... thanks for the rational on the expense as I've tried to explain it that way to the wife. I actually tried numerous movies last night... many were 'backup copies' with various degrees of compression (some transcoded and some re-encoded) and some with no compression at all... also some were the original manufactured disc (complete with MENUs... AAARRRGGGHH! I hate menus and coming attractions!). Anyway, all showed the ringing at the edges. What I hope everyone understands is that this edge ringing in NOT a problem and really is very minimal to anything in the foreground, essentially it isn't there for all practical purposes. In my particular setup, its only there in the fine little details most especially on moving details in the background. When too many edges get too close together the ringing 'bumps' into each other and that's when it can get a little weird in appearance sometimes. Again, if I were at the recommended viewing distance of 1.5-3X the screen width that would not pose such a big trade-off. The real problem is my particular setup REQUIRES sometimes people will be sitting awfully close to the screen and if your attention is solidly focused on background objects (such as when main characters are approaching the camera, etc) then this will begin to detract somewhat from the full enjoyment of the film. Please keep in mind, I watch the 'movie' and not the 'picture' per se, but if the latter gets in the way of the former then it can be a problem for me and so I would assume a problem for my guests as well.

I believe I've spent enough time with this player to the point where playing with it any longer won't change the facts of my particular situation. I spent a lot of time and money calibrating my system and I will say the color and contrast options do NOT alter any of that in a negative way... I really liked having those options but unfortunately the sharpness (and subsequent edge ringing) cannot be adjusted to 'taste' (what's needed in my particular situation) and so no amount of watching will change that... thus, back it must go. Also I will use this opportunity to take the dogs (2 Golden Retrievers) to the dog park for the day, so yeah, I guess its not a total waste.

You obviously know something that others dont.
I am not trying to insult you, but, you will probably perceive it as so.
The odds are , you have a system in which YOU can not tell the difference between a good DVD player and a bad DVD player, otherwise, the majority of the guys on this thread dont know their SD from a hole in the ground !
I sincereley doubt you have the aptitude to make an unbiased comparison, and, judging from one other person's response to you, I am not alone.
I am going to assume you dont have your system optimized to bring out the positive attributes of the XDE.
I dont own one yet, but, there are many "unscientific" evaluations going on and of course, absolutes that are proclaimed based on their poor testing. So, from my point of view, I ain't placing any merit in your statement.
Thanks
I"m just a beta tester for Oppo, what do I know :rolleyes:

Just because I'm usually too busy in my day to post on this forum specifically doesn't mean I lack base. And why should I have to prove how I feel about something I have sitting infront of me.

Usually I don't put up with players like these, but with all the hype I wanted to check it out. It's not worth the write up.

It's going to wow and dazzle regular folks who lack the trained eye (ie: 85% of people on this board) and the ones who know sharp from edge-enhancement will find this player lack luster.

One more thing is it's overall lack of value. As a DVD player only, which that's all that this is, it's an ok machine, and it's going to, again, wow 85% of this board, 85% of the general population.

It's not any kind of universal player, I'm not even going to bother testing the audio portion of this player it's so minimalistic.

To see the effect of this player is pretty easy: Use component video for the color saturation and boost the sharpness up. That's all this player does but does it with a small hardware chip.

I think what we have here is a DVD player that was purpose-built around a particular chipset.

I believe that generally speaking, when a manufacturer decides to build a DVD player, they work on the specs first (which is often marketing-driven and geared to hit a particular price point). Then they shop around for components that will fit those specs. If the chipset offers a feature that wasn't in the spec, it simply gets ignored.

In the case of the XD-E500, it seems like Toshiba picked the chipset first and built a DVD player to take full advantage of that chipset. This is likely similar to what Oppo does.

...

It's going to wow and dazzle regular folks who lack the trained eye (ie: 85% of people on this board) and the ones who know sharp from edge-enhancement will find this player lack luster.

Well that is actually a pretty ringing endorsement for the player. An 85% wow and dazzle rate is pretty darn good. :)

I really could care less about having a "trained eye". I know what looks good to me and what doesn't. This player has really impressed me on some of the movies I've watched with it. That is the only measuring stick I need.

www.digitaltrends.com


Here's a very positive review from an unbiased source I believe. The reviews of this player reminds me of reviews of King Kong on HD DVD. I thought it was a great transfer while a few others hated it! I have lots of friends who would compare BD and HD DVD to DVD, be disappointed and take the BD and HD DVD players back - it's not a priority for them and they simply don't care enough. I guess every one who has an interest in DVD will have to have a look for themselves.

Well, the Dennis Barker guy seems to be relatively unbiased. Though he did work for Microsoft (http://www.digitaltrends.com/editorial-team) for what it is worth. Probably not much.

And let's not forget that digitaltrends also employs Rob Enderle. RED FLAG!

Remember this gem?
http://news.digitaltrends.com/talk-back/184/wal-mart-names-hd-dvd-the-winner

But the consensus does seem to be that this is a decent player.

I"m just a beta tester for Oppo, what do I know :rolleyes:

It's hard to tell. One has to first weed through the arogance and then get past the lack of substantiating information. What's left isn't much. Your negative response carries no more weight then a positive response of "it looks good to me". Neither adds much to the discussion.

The chipset in play was already identified before your post. There are too many knowledgeable individuals commenting on the differences between what Toshiba is doing and what has been done in the past with the same chipset. Which leads us to a most probable software change to try to impart more intelligent processing (that you of course dispell). Many have tried to bring forth suggestions of possible techniques being used.

If you have something more to add such as your environment, setup, how you attempted to use, specifics on what you didn't like it then it might be more useful for those debating on a purchase. For example, monomer is unsatisfied wth the play back and his feedback was well accepted and appreciated. Taking pot shots at the majority of forum members without substantiating evidence doesn't promote credibility.

Anyone know if there are any discrete power codes for this player? I don't own any other Toshiba gear but a little Googling has indicated that they're not so good with these and much of their gear lacks discrete code capability.

I tried the HD DVD player discrete codes on remotecentral but they don't work.

I"m just a beta tester for Oppo, what do I know :rolleyes:

Just because I'm usually too busy in my day to post on this forum specifically doesn't mean I lack base. And why should I have to prove how I feel about something I have sitting infront of me.

Usually I don't put up with players like these, but with all the hype I wanted to check it out. It's not worth the write up.

It's going to wow and dazzle regular folks who lack the trained eye (ie: 85% of people on this board) and the ones who know sharp from edge-enhancement will find this player lack luster.

LOL. If you're a beta tester for Oppo then you have a natural need to trash the Toshiba. Kinda like a PS3 beta tester evaluating an xbox 360. Take care!

lol. If you're a beta tester for oppo then you have a natural need to trash the toshiba. Kinda like a ps3 beta tester evaluating an xbox 360. Take care!

+1

Welcome to his point, but really?

I watched AVP tonight (Unrated) on BD and ended p comparing it to our copy of the DVD on the XDE. Both the PS3 and the XDE output to my FP a 1080/24P signal.

Interestingly, we had never seen the urated cut so i rented the Bd and we watched it. It only took a second before both me and the wife said "wow" this is why we bought BD. Razor sharp from the opening Fox screens through the menus and to the film. Loved the DTS Master HD tracks too.

However, when we finished it, I got the DVD we own and threw it into the XDE for fun comparisons. No, I am not going to tell you how hard it was to tell the difference. It was easy. What I will tell you is that the XDE made it close enough that I am still mesmerized.

How good is good enough? It depends on you, but this is a fine player for most people. As I said before, maybe purists need not apply, but everyone else will enjoy.

I have a native 720 plasma display (pioneer 6070).

My first question is would I benefit from the features on this player with my display?

Second question is would I be able to pass 480 signal via HDMI?

I have a native 720 plasma display (pioneer 6070).

My first question is would I benefit from the features on this player with my display?

Second question is would I be able to pass 480 signal via HDMI?

On my 768 Plasma I can clearly see benefits. Use the auto setting and let the player output 720P. Activate the sharpness/color/contrast settings as you like them. It is the best standard def PQ I can produce given the units I own.

No 480i output however. I have several Toshiba HDDVD units that output 480i. My Panny panels have great upscalers in them and the PQ is decent. The E500 however beats them.

How big is your plasma?

Uh, well, it would appear that joltdudeuc has shown his true colors.... and that others seem to think the same as I about his "review".
There are intelligent posters on this forum and their content is evident.
My hat is off to those contributors


"Pot Calling the Kettle Black"




As you have no personal basis to defend the XDE, I would refrain from using such inflammatory statements.

joltdudeuc has the player and has expressed displeasure in the picture quality. If you disagree with his statements, ask him questions that will illuminate the reasons behind his claims, rather than delving direct into insults and slander.

Watched WOTW (in its entirety this time) and the anamorphic transfer of the IMAX film Super Speedway last night. While both looked very good (again, for upconverted SD content) I was literally blown away by much of Super Speedway. Stunning transfer and most of the scenes looked better than most of what passes for "HD" in broadcast. Simply amazing. And in 24fps mode there wasn't even so much as a hint of aliasing or shimmering in the seats of the stands of the scene that so many use as a de-interlacing torture test.

I did have a small problem with each disc I think was also mentioned by someone earlier. On both titles, towards the end of the program, the player froze for several seconds - no audio, still video, and then seemed to pick up from where it would have been in time instead of where it had frozen, like several seconds of frames had been dropped. I replayed the section that did this from Super Speedway and it didn't do it again. The disc was also totally clean so I don't think it was a problem with that.

Toshiba was very responsive to my report of the picture shift/transpose problem, so I'm going to report this issue to them as well.

It's hard to tell. One has to first weed through the arogance and then get past the lack of substantiating information. What's left isn't much. Your negative response carries no more weight then a positive response of "it looks good to me". Neither adds much to the discussion.


I misunderstood the purpose of these forums. Obviously you feel the input should be confined to more technical aspects of AV. Those who are unwilling to dig into chipsets, framerates, etc., should stay out of the discussion, at least according to your standards? And, by the way, your response was as arrogant as that of the poster to whom you responded.

There....now you and I both have added nothing to the discussion with these two posts.

arkiedan

I just got the XDE and plan to put it into my set up today. I will compare it with my Pioneer 05 and HD805 as far as SD dvd upconversion is concerned. I am looking forward to giving it some good "play" time today. As you can see my rack is full but I will squeeze it in somewhere. :)

I just got the XDE and plan to put it into my set up today. I will compare it with my Pioneer 05 and HD805 as far as SD dvd upconversion is concerned. I am looking forward to giving it some good "play" time today. As you can see my rack is full but I will squeeze it in somewhere. :)

I also have the 05 and the XDE. I've been going back and forth trying to decide which I prefer. both going to a 1080P 40" Samsung and an HC5500 Mitsubishi FP with Reon HQV (source direct on the 05).

either player can make certain movies look better depending on the content. Monsters Inc looks very good (sharp) on the XDE, but a little softer on the 05.

'Strange days' appeared better (to my eyes) on the 05 than the XDE, more natural and film like.

I have no real control over the HQV settings in the HC5500. I am wondering if it's time to get serious and go source direct from the 05 to a quality upscaler like Anchor Bay's new DVDO Edge.

curious to hear your thoughts on the XDE.

* The color mode DOES do some funky things on these disks and does not yield a realsitic result. Sharpness and Contrast appears to produce the most natural color/BL output..

How are you able to turn on both Sharpness and Contrast at the same time? When I go into the Setup menu, all of the enhancement settings seem to be an either/or decision. If I turn on Contrast, it turns off Sharpness and Color. Likewise, choosing any one of the options will turn off the other two.

What am I missing?

How are you able to turn on both Sharpness and Contrast at the same time? When I go into the Setup menu, all of the enhancement settings seem to be an either/or decision. If I turn on Contrast, it turns off Sharpness and Color. Likewise, choosing any one of the options will turn off the other two.

What am I missing?

I'm playing with the E500 now and I think the choices are as follows:

Off
Sharpness alone
Color + Sharpness
and Contrast + Sharpness

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: Yes, those are the choices. See page 32 of the manual at the top left.

No, but it will output PAL if you put a region 2 disc in it (after making the player region free, of course). My XA2 is also region free but unfortunately will not output PAL and I use a plasma.

The XDE will play a PAL disc, but not output it as PAL. It converts to NTSC and then scales to whatever resolution you choose. There is no 50 Hz frame rate option in the player. If you set resolution to "Auto", it outputs a PAL disc as 480p60.

I'm playing with the E500 now and I think the choices are as follows:

Off
Sharpness alone
Color + Sharpness
and Contrast + Sharpness

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: Yes, those are the choices. See page 32 of the manual at the top left.

OK, so it seems that turning on any enhancement automatically turns on Sharpness. But you can't apply Color and Contrast simultaneously. Is that right?

What's confusing is that if you check the Color or Contrast setting in the menu, it unchecks the Sharpness setting.

OK, so it seems that turning on any enhancement automatically turns on Sharpness. But you can't apply Color and Contrast simultaneously. Is that right?

What's confusing is that if you check the Color or Contrast setting in the menu, it unchecks the Sharpness setting.

I think it was stated you can only choose 2 out of the 3 at any one time.

I tested one of these at work, and after about 15 minutes the picture shifted about 6 inches to the left cutting off and re appearing on the right.

turning the unit off & then back on fixed it, but it would do it again after about another 15 minutes.

is this a fw update or defect?

I was not satisfied with the artificially and overly sharpened image.
I prefer the smoother image that normal DVD upconvert players give as they seem better at burying the flaws inherent with DVD low bit rate encodes better.

OK, so it seems that turning on any enhancement automatically turns on Sharpness. But you can't apply Color and Contrast simultaneously. Is that right?

What's confusing is that if you check the Color or Contrast setting in the menu, it unchecks the Sharpness setting.

I haven't used the menu, I just use the "Pic Mode" button on the remote.

I just purchased the Toshiba XDE500 and was really impressed! I guess you can call me a truly satisfied customer! I'm running out through HDMI to a Samsung LNT4661F, with sound running through a Marantz 5.1 receiver. The image, while not true HD is still nonetheless truly impressive! I love the contrast mode...really gives the image a 3-D like quality! I know it's not perfect. The image quality will vary depending on scenes and there is some artifacts in the shadows but to me this is a massive improvement from my Samsung HD860 and step-up from the Sony DVP-NS700H which is also a truly nice machine. My friend has the Sony hooked up to a Samsung LN40A550 and the image is quite impressive.

I wanted to try the OPPO but the I couldn't justify the prices for an up-converting DVD player. This will suit me and in my opinion really lives up the hype! If Toshiba keeps on improving this tech, and keeping the prices reasonable, Blu-ray could see it's sales seriously cannibalized. I know plenty of people unwilling to give up on their DVD collections and convert everything to Blu-ray. There is a market here for SD DVD owners. Plus there are still plenty of people who are just plain satisfied with SD DVD tech and see no reason to up-grade to Blu-ray at prices 4 times the price of a SD DVD player.

I for one will up-grade to Blu-ray eventually when the prices are more reasonable. For now the Toshiba XDE500 is a excellent stop-gap!!! You know what?! It's just a damn fine player!

I tested one of these at work, and after about 15 minutes the picture shifted about 6 inches to the left cutting off and re appearing on the right.

turning the unit off & then back on fixed it, but it would do it again after about another 15 minutes.

is this a fw update or defect?

Both I and another owner have experienced this problem. I reported it to Toshiba and the issue was immediately escalated to Engineering and they asked me for additional details, so I'm hopeful it will be addressed in a firmware update. I haven't seen it again since then, but in both other reported cases it was jumping around chapters that seemed to cause it.

There's also been a freeze problem experienced by myself and at least one other user. I also reported this to Toshiba and hopefully they take it just as seriously.

Abt has this player for sale for $141.55 using theire LABOR2008 code for 5% discount with free shipping and no sales tax in most states except these:
Illinois - 9.75%
Wisconsin - county sales tax determined by delivery point (5%-6.1%)
Indiana - 7%
Michigan - 6%
http://www.abt.com/product/36286.html?source=pg

Vann's has this player for $139.99 with free shipping and no tax.

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/details/486149095/toshiba-xde500;jsessionid=DEB2C696F4D9705479E524EDEEA0F055.web0

Of course Amazon is tax free and free shipping for $149.99.

Found this review by Bill Cortner on Amazon's users reviews (their 2nd page):

Well my Toshiba SuperUpConverter, re-named "XDE" came in
yesterday [Fedex Next-Day], and needless to say, I wasted
no time getting into some very extensive evaluations.

HARDWARE USED:
Sony KDL-46XBR5, 1080P, 120hz, 24fps, HD Display
Monster Cable 1000HD, 1-meter 10.2 Gbps HDMI cables
Onkyo DV-HD805 HD DVD + UpConverting DVD player [Silicon Optix]
Oppo DV-981HD UpConverting DVD player {Faroudja DCDi]
Toshiba HD-A35 HD DVD + UpConverting DVD player [Anchor Bay]
Toshiba XD-E500 Upconverting DVD player [Cel processor]

WIRING:
All devices were wired with identical HDMi cables,
and the signal path was direct-to-monitor [no switchers]

SOFTWARE:
Identical/twin-copies of the following HD DVD/SD DVD Combi discs...
American Gangster
Bourne Ultimatum
Hot Fuzz
Smokin' Aces

TESTING:
Identical discs were placed in competing players, cued up to
the exact same frame, and then started simultaneously.
Switching between opponents could be conducted at will,
and I frequently chapter-backed to watch a key element,
color, edge, texture, color, or pan/tilt/motion sequence
over and over again [ad nauseum].

I did not conduct these tests by myself.
I dragged my poor brother into this mind-bending,
eye-marathon, and he graciously sat there making his own
observations, with the intention being, that a 2nd opinion
would be rendered/posted for the group's consideration.
Special thanks also to Bruce [my brother] for providing
the 2nd identical/twin combi-discs that were needed to
conduct fair SD DVD to SD DVD as well as HD DVD to SD DVD
hardware performance evaluations.

FRAMING THE RESULTS:
I gave some thought to how I would go about putting into words
precisely what was revealed during this marathon session.
In the end, I decided that a 1-10 scale would be used.
Additionally, I'm going to frame the scale by defining what
a "1" and what a "10" represents, in a way that you can relate to.

1= VHS Tape
3= DVD at 480P, not Upconverted
10= HD DVD or Blu-ray at full 1080P on a full 1080P display

RESULTS:
Oppo DV-981HD UpConverting DVD to 1080P = 5
Toshiba HD-A30 UpConvert DVD to 1080P = 5
Onkyo DV-HD805 UpConvert DVD to 1080P [Reon Edge OFF] = 5.5
Onkyo DV-HD805 UpConvert DVD to 1080P [Reon Edge ON] = 6
Toshiba HD-E500 UpConvert DVD to 1080P = 8 [XDE ON]
Toshiba HD-E500 UpConvert DVD to 1080P = 7.8 [XDE + CONTRAST ON]
Toshiba HD-E500 UpConvert DVD to 1080P = 8.2 [XDE + COLOR MAPPING ON]
Onkyo DV-HD805 HD DVD at 1080P = 9.7 [Reon Edge OFF]
Onkyo DV-HD805 HD DVD at 1080P = 10 [Reon Edge ON]

VERBS, ADVERBS, ADJECTIVES AND WHATNOT:
This industry is so ripe with exaggerated claims, creative
interpretation of the numbers, and outright lies, that I'm
almost afraid to put into words what the preceding numerical
test results [clearly] reveal/indicate. Almost afraid, not... afraid.
[subtle but important difference, as with the numerical ratings].

Let's do this arse-backwards [reviewers always make you read
a lot of verbs, adverbs and whatnot before they generally say
anything even remotely useful, or God-forbid, controversial...
Stated simply, this Toshiba SuperUpConverter, which was renamed
"XDE" absolutely eats/annihilates the Silicon Optix HQV Reon,
and words can not even describe what it does to [formerly]
world-class/award-winning UpConverters like the Oppo DV-981HD
and the ABT-equipped 3rd generation Toshiba HD DVD players.

Look, unlike the big review sites... I have absolutely no axe
to grind here. This isn't my business, it's my hobby, and
I own...
(2) Oppo DV-981HD
(2) Toshiba HD-A35
(4) Onkyo DV-HD805
So it's not like I'm doing what human beings do...
Trying to justify their prior decisions/investments and
convince themselves/others that whatever they own is the
right thing to own... I honestly don't give a crap...
As I said the other day, let the chips fall where they may.

As to why that c/Net guy wrote an op-ed piece [not based on a test]
that went all-out to trash the SuperUpConverter, even going so
far as to suggest that the only thing XDE had to offer was
"edge enhancement"? Frankly, after spending 6 hours [two three
hour sessions with a good night's sleep to rest the eyes in between]
I am truly stunned and perplexed by this c/Net "opinion" [not test]
that is without a doubt, completely at odds with truth/reality.

The problem Toshiba faces here is the fact that the studios,
electronics manufacturers, B&M stores, online retailers, and
MAGAZINES/PRESS that get their income/revenue from advertising
funded by all of the above... are on a do or die mission to
try and convince everyone to buy Blu-ray Disc. Why? Because
DVD mas been around so long that it has matured [begun to stagnate].
For the 1st 9 years, DVD was up up up over every previous year.
But now it's leveled off, and begun heading down.
So to combat this, the studios, retailers and CE manufacturers
have gotten into a blow-em-out-cheap to make it up in volume
mentality that has totally eliminated/eroded the profit from
DVD software and hardware.
This is the REAL reason that the industry wants Blu-ray to succeed.
It's not because they want to give everyone better picture and
sound quality out of the goodness of their hearts...
It's because the are scared sh#tless about the downward trend
in DVD sales, as well as the continuing to erode profit margin
of yesterday's golden-goose... The consumer's beloved DVD.

Blu-ray Disc aims not to put high-definition in your living--room,
nut to put the profit back in sell-through movies [and players].
Blu-ray literally is the studios, retailers and CE manufacturers
wet-dream... An potentially very exciting product that, if adopted
by consumers, could turn into a PROFIT GRAVY TRAIN for all of them...
Thus solving their ever-looming DVD nightmare.

Is it therefore surprising that the preliminary "buzz" on
a new INEXPENSIVE DVD player, than IN FACT actually puts
your standard DVDs in the same [general] league as that
profit gravy train, errrrr Blu-ray Disc... is getting the bum's rush?
My opinion? Expect more similar hatchet jobs.

Back to the SuperUpConverter...
How good is it? OMG! This DVD player is a revelation!
It greatly increases detail, but does not increase noise/artifacts.
It was astonishing, and a little sad to watch this $149 player
produce a picture that mas MUCH more detailed AND much cleaner
than the Silicon Optix equipped Onkyo DV-HD805
Normally when you increase "sharpness", you increase "noise"
But there isn't the slightest hint of that happening with XDE.
Yet it's not only the detail/sharpness that leaps ahead of
any other UpConverter, it's everything! The color for example
looks like you washed tobacco/nicotine off your screen when
going from the Oppo DV-981HD, Toshiba HD-A35 or Onkyo DV-HD805
to the SuperUpConverter. That's the thing... True high-definition
video isn't just sharper, it's also got much better/more crisp color.
But the Toshiba XD-E500 gives you BOTH the sharpness you expect
from high-definition AND that crisp/vivid color!

What about side-effects, artifacts or problems?
Frankly, I got eye-strain trying to find something, anything
that the SuperUpConverter was getting "wrong" that the Silicon
Optix HQV Reon was getting "right" The verdict? Nada.
Whatever artifacts were visible on the XDE device were also
present and visible on the other conventional UpConverters.

I know- I know- The [...] question...
Is the SuperUpConverter a "Blu-ray killer"?
Well, since I don't own a Blu-ray player, I can't really say.
However, my opinion, based on evaluations of Blu-ray vs HD DVD
[using a PS3 and a Toshiba HD-A35 on a 46" Sony XBR5 a few months ago]
have left me with the very strong opinion that, assuming the same
transfer/encode/film... There is no visual difference between
Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD. Therefore, extrapolating on that previous
test... I am going to say that, NO, THE TOSHIBA XDE/SuperUpConverter
IS NOT a BLU-RAY [or HD DVD] KILLER.
That being said... The Toshiba XD-E500 at all times looked
like TRUE HIGH DEFINITION in terms of sharpness and color.
It literally blew me away, and it is without a doubt the
very best UpConverter I have ever seen.
This player's radical new approach of analyzing 9 frames
of video in real time is a quantum leap forward in upscaling
mechanics that deserves some kind of major tech/achievement award.
I want to repeat something to make sure you caught it...
The Toshiba XD-E500 at all times looked
like TRUE HIGH DEFINITION in terms of sharpness and color.

The bottom-line?
If you own even [...] DVDs? You would have to be crazy not
to invest a paltry [...] in a device that will in fact,
raise them to a level of performance that would convince
anyone that they were watching true HD video.
What else can I say other than don't wait for DVD 2.0
which any marketing major will tell you is exactly
one year away, and won't produce a picture any better than this!
It will just have HDi menu's IF the Blu-ray gravy-train
riding studios decide to support it... A very big if guys!

Where was I? Oh yeah...
BUY THIS PLAYER as soon as you can find it for [...] or less...
Do not buy it from Amazon... They are price/gouging and
charging [...] over the manufacturer's list price!
Circuit City offers it with free shipping for [...]
If anyone finds a better deal, please post it here
at TBS because anyone with a decent-sized DVD collection
definitely needs to own one of these DVD dream machines!

-Bill


Sounds impressive by most counts (a few negative reviews here and there but mostly good). I'm getting tempted again :D

Do we know if we can make the player region free and multi zone, is there a code?
Is the power supply: ~ 100V – 240V, 50/60Hz AC?

Do we know if we can make the player region free and multi zone, is there a code?
Is the power supply: ~ 100V – 240V, 50/60Hz AC?

Yes it can easily be made region free. The code is either in this thread or the other E500 thread. Off the top of my head...not sure of the power supply.

Do we know if we can make the player region free and multi zone, is there a code?
If you are looking for a player to sell customers in New Zealand, it will not work in its current design. The player will convert PAL to NTSC. There is no native PAL output.
The XDE will play a PAL disc, but not output it as PAL. It converts to NTSC and then scales to whatever resolution you choose. There is no 50 Hz frame rate option in the player. If you set resolution to "Auto", it outputs a PAL disc as 480p60.
As for Region Unlocking, this has been posted several times in this forum. Here are the instructions:

Eject the tray from the DVD player.
Press "2403960"
Press 9.
Close the tray.
Turn the player Off and back On again. The player should be region unlocked.

Let me get this straight...

- the XDE modes only work with 1080i or 1080p
- 24p only works with 1080p
- 4:3 material is 'unstretched' only for 480p

If this is accurate, then this player was designed mostly for 1080p displays, as you wouldn't want to output 1080i to a 768p display.

Based on what I've seen, DVDs look somewhat better at 768p than 1080p, which is what you would figure since the latter has a greater number of 'interpolated' pixels. It would appear then that Toshiba has simply found a way to improve upconversion for larger displays.

Personally, what I'm looking for is a player that can improve the PQ of my older DVDs, many of which are single-layered and/or have poor encoding. These sorts of discs generally look fine on my old Sony flatscreen tube, but can look horrid on my 32" LCD, even with a good progressive scan player. For people in my position, it would appear that an Oppo is still the best way to go.

Let me get this straight...

- the XDE modes only work with 1080i or 1080p
- 24p only works with 1080p
- 4:3 material is 'unstretched' only for 480p

If this is accurate, then this player was designed mostly for 1080p displays, as you wouldn't want to output 1080i to a 768p display.

Based on what I've seen, DVDs look somewhat better at 768p than 1080p, which is what you would figure since the latter has a greater number of 'interpolated' pixels. It would appear then that Toshiba has simply found a way to improve upconversion for larger displays.

Personally, what I'm looking for is a player that can improve the PQ of my older DVDs, many of which are single-layered and/or have poor encoding. These sorts of discs generally look fine on my old Sony flatscreen tube, but can look horrid on my 32" LCD, even with a good progressive scan player. For people in my position, it would appear that an Oppo is still the best way to go.

Actually, if connected to a native 720 (or 768) display, one can set the player to "auto" via HDMI and it will output 720 with all of the enhancements working. If you set the player to 720 (instead of auto), it will not allow you to use the ennhancements. This will probably be fixed in a FW upgrade as Toshiba is aware of this (I reported it). I have verified that the above is the case on my projector. The signal passed in auto setting is 720P and the enhancements do work.

I think this player does well with older discs. However, if they are non anamorphic or 4X3 native, it will stretch them to fill the screen. I would hope Tosh would address this as well.

If you are looking for a player to sell customers in New Zealand, it will not work in its current design. The player will convert PAL to NTSC. There is no native PAL output.

Furthermore, the PAL-to-NTSC conversion is terrible, perhaps the worst I've ever seen. PAL discs are filled with jaggies, aliasing, and a huge drop in resolution. This player is useless for PAL content.

I tested one of these at work, and after about 15 minutes the picture shifted about 6 inches to the left cutting off and re appearing on the right.

I've had this happen occasionally as well. I believe it's somehow tied to HDMI handshaking. If you switch away from the HDMI input and back, the picture will correct itself.

I did not have any problems with it doing this continually. Once fixed, the disc generally stays fixed for the duration of that sitting. I only experienced the problem at the start of disc playback.

I was not satisfied with the artificially and overly sharpened image.

I agree. I tested this player extensively last night. Anyone who says they don't see edge ringing with the picture enhancements engaged must have too small a screen. All of the enhancements cause a ton of ringing, really visible in the background of shots and around any on-screen text.

Josh Z, while that is true, to me the extra sharpness contributed to the HD-like effect. In A-B comparisons I thought the sharpness improved overall PQ. I hate fuzzy looking PQ. Also, all these algorithms apply optimization techniques to the video, so there has to be some artifacts. All that matters is whether you prefer the trade offs the player does or not.

The XDE lives or dies based on whether you like a more edgy picture or not. WinDVD8 Plus all2HD feature is almost identical to this. If you look around you can find images with mouse overs that show you with and without the post processing. Unfortunately on my mobile device I can't post links.

These types of post processing products are not for the purists in my opinion. They are for folks like me. I am not a videophile. I want to watch a good movie and I'd rather have the grain and fuzziness minimized :)

Josh Z, while that is true, to me the extra sharpness contributed to the HD-like effect. In A-B comparisons I thought the sharpness improved overall PQ. I hate fuzzy looking PQ. Also, all these algorithms apply optimization techniques to the video, so there has to be some artifacts. All that matters is whether you prefer the trade offs the player does or not.

The XDE lives or dies based on whether you like a more edgy picture or not. WinDVD8 Plus all2HD feature is almost identical to this. If you look around you can find images with mouse overs that show you with and without the post processing. Unfortunately on my mobile device I can't post links.

These types of post processing products are not for the purists in my opinion. They are for folks like me. I am not a videophile. I want to watch a good movie and I'd rather have the grain and fuzziness minimized :)

Even with that in mind, I didn't find anything special in the implementation of the "Sharpness" filter in this player that is any better than the edge enhancement filters in countless other upconverting DVD players. The talk that the e.e. filter in this player is more "intelligent" than most e.e. applications and can analyze which edges to most effectively sharpen is pure marketing hype. I didn't experience any of that in action.

The only real advantage this player has over other decent upconverters is the price.

but to me this is a massive improvement from my Samsung HD860 and step-up from the Sony DVP-NS700H which is also a truly nice machine. My friend has the Sony hooked up to a Samsung LN40A550 and the image is quite impressive.


Ok You are the man I need to talk to. I have The same Sony upconverting player and I am trying to find enough evidence to buy the XDE. Would you recommend purchasing the toshiba? I have a 32 inch LCD and i sit about 10 ft from the screen in a very dark room.

Is the difference noticeable? In a good way?

- 24p only works with 1080p

This it not a caveat of the product, as 24Hz output has to be done at 1080p. I have seen external processors which can accept alternative refresh rates (24/48/72Hz) at at lower resolutions, but I I am not aware of any television which can natively support 24Hz at a resolution other than 1080p.

These sorts of discs generally look fine on my old Sony flatscreen tube, but can look horrid on my 32" LCD, even with a good progressive scan player.

CRTs do not have a native output resolution. For this reason, they are champions when it comes to displaying natively standard definition content.

LCDs, especially low end and mid-range products, are notoriously bad for scaling artifacts (poor picture quality). An external scaling product, like a DVD player, should reduce scaling errors which are inherent to your display.

Abt has this player for sale for $141.55 using theire LABOR2008 code for 5% discount with free shipping and no sales tax in most states except these:
Illinois - 9.75%
Wisconsin - county sales tax determined by delivery point (5%-6.1%)
Indiana - 7%
Michigan - 6%
http://www.abt.com/product/36286.html?source=pg

Vann's has this player for $139.99 with free shipping and no tax.

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/details/486149095/toshiba-xde500;jsessionid=DEB2C696F4D9705479E524EDEEA0F055.web0

Of course Amazon is tax free and free shipping for $149.99.

Found this review by Bill Cortner on Amazon's users reviews (their 2nd page):


Sounds impressive by most counts (a few negative reviews here and there but mostly good). I'm getting tempted again :D

I don't know if "Bill" is right about his judgment of the new Toshiba EX500(since I have not seen it), but IMO he is 100% correct about Blu-Ray being hyped hard by all who stand to profit, and the bought-and-paid-for media being quick to slam any hints that Blu-ray is not the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Abt has this player for sale for $141.55 using theire LABOR2008 code for 5% discount with free shipping and no sales tax in most states except these:
Illinois - 9.75%
Wisconsin - county sales tax determined by delivery point (5%-6.1%)
Indiana - 7%
Michigan - 6%
http://www.abt.com/product/36286.html?source=pg

Vann's has this player for $139.99 with free shipping and no tax.

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/details/486149095/toshiba-xde500;jsessionid=DEB2C696F4D9705479E524EDEEA0F055.web0

Of course Amazon is tax free and free shipping for $149.99.

Found this review by Bill Cortner on Amazon's users reviews (their 2nd page):


Sounds impressive by most counts (a few negative reviews here and there but mostly good). I'm getting tempted again :D

I don't know if "Bill" (the reviewer) is right in his judgment of the new Toshiba EX500 (since I have not seen it), but IMO he is 100% correct about Blu-Ray being hyped hard by all who stand to profit, and the bought-and-paid-for media being quick to slam any hints that Blu-ray is not the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Even with that in mind, I didn't find anything special in the implementation of the "Sharpness" filter in this player that is any better than the edge enhancement filters in countless other upconverting DVD players. The talk that the e.e. filter in this player is more "intelligent" than most e.e. applications and can analyze which edges to most effectively sharpen is pure marketing hype. I didn't experience any of that in action.

The only real advantage this player has over other decent upconverters is the price.

I only spent a couple of hours with the player, but given the relatively mediocre hardware there isn't much that can be done here. However, I did notice that the sharpness was applied so that distant objects were less sharpened and I also noticed that the sharpening was applied differently based on the shape of the object. Do I prefer it over my BH200? All things considered, no.

As you said, for the price it is a good player and the implementation is interesting, but the hardware on this player is not capable of more sophisticated post processing. I prefer the PS3 upscaling to the XDE.

Has anyone tested the quality of the s-video output of the XD-E500? I am still running my first and only DVD player, the Toshiba SD-2700 and an old Toshiba Cinema 32" tube TV. S-Video is the best that TV can do. Neither of these units will give up the ghost! But the SD-2700 has a hard time with home grown DVD's and CD's, so the wife is ok with getting a new player. I also have my eye on a new plasma sometime in the future. So I need a DVD player that can provide a good picture on my old TV until I can find some way to replace it with the plasma.

Any cheapo DVD player will have similar Svideo performances. Don't waste your money for a fancy upconverter when you don't have HDTV.

Here's my take on the XDE-500. My Reon HQV DVD player looks better - to me with my equipment. The image is cleaner and I can tweak the PQ using the picture settings to what I consider reference quality SD DVD playback.

That being said I think the XDE is attempting to do something different. It seems to be optimized for improved PQ at what I will call a "typical" viewing distance. It doesn't do so well when somebody is comparing PQ with their nose six inches away from the screen - at least for me. That's why IMO the XDE will not do well on many of the testing criteria that is typical when judging DVD players. I think we are already seeing evidence of this.

When sitting at a "typical" or recommended viewing distance from the screen the tricks that the XDE uses seem to be at their best. Depending on the type of content the settings on the XDE can give the "impression" of a much better picture.

Has anyone tested the quality of the s-video output of the XD-E500? I am still running my first and only DVD player, the Toshiba SD-2700 and an old Toshiba Cinema 32" tube TV. S-Video is the best that TV can do. Neither of these units will give up the ghost! But the SD-2700 has a hard time with home grown DVD's and CD's, so the wife is ok with getting a new player. I also have my eye on a new plasma sometime in the future. So I need a DVD player that can provide a good picture on my old TV until I can find some way to replace it with the plasma.
on other tosh sd players that i've had, s video seems to me to be the cleanest s video of the many brands of dvd players that ive owned.
dont know about this new one tho.

i've had 3 different toshiba sd dvd players and they've all had difficulty playing homegrown -r discs made on my stand alone dvd recorders.
my tosh hd dvd players and all my other brand sd players play them ok.

Here's my take on the XDE-500. My Reon HQV DVD player looks better - to me with my equipment. The image is cleaner and I can tweak the PQ using the picture settings to what I consider reference quality SD DVD playback.

That being said I think the XDE is attempting to do something different. It seems to be optimized for improved PQ at what I will call a "typical" viewing distance. It doesn't do so well when somebody is comparing PQ with their nose six inches away from the screen - at least for me. That's why IMO the XDE will not do well on many of the testing criteria that is typical when judging DVD players. I think we are already seeing evidence of this.

When sitting at a "typical" or recommended viewing distance from the screen the tricks that the XDE uses seem to be at their best. Depending on the type of content the settings on the XDE can give the "impression" of a much better picture.

I believe audio and videophile want a product to reproduce exactly what is on a disk. Most regular people want it to look as pleasing as possbile (i.e. think HD Theatre on your TV).

LCDs, especially low end and mid-range products, are notoriously bad for scaling artifacts (poor picture quality). An external scaling product, like a DVD player, should reduce scaling errors which are inherent to your display.

Artifacts seem to be more of a problem with SD cable than with DVDs, at least on my LCD. My main gripe about DVDs is the sporadic softness of the image. While there's no doubt my LCD reveals more detail than my tube TV, sometimes the overall image looks a bit fuzzy or out of focus, even with good quality sources. This inconsistency in PQ can get really annoying at times, and as far as I can tell, it's simply inherent to the rescaling process, and probably can't be corrected with any upconverting player.

CRTs do not have a native output resolution. For this reason, they are champions when it comes to displaying natively standard definition content.

I agree, and in fact, it's likely that DVDs will always look slightly worse on a HD LCD or plasma than they did on a quality tube TV, which means all this obsessing over 'upconverting' players is probably just a waste of time and effort. While an XDE-500 or Oppo might be useful for 1080p displays, they're not going to make your DVDs look as good as they did on a Sony Trinitron.

However, I did notice that the sharpness was applied so that distant objects were less sharpened

I found the opposite. Ringing was more pronounced in the background of scenes, as if the filter were trying to "sharpen" things that would be harder to see.

Last night, I ran some comparisons against the HD-XA2 with Reon processing. The XDE player was comparable to the XA2 with Mosquito Noise Reduction on and Edge Enhancement at the maximum setting of 2, which I find too strong. The XA2 does better with EE at 1. Unfortunately, there is no way to adjust the intensity of the filter on the XDE.

Last night, I ran some comparisons against the HD-XA2 with Reon processing. The XDE player was comparable to the XA2 with Mosquito Noise Reduction on and Edge Enhancement at the maximum setting of 2, which I find too strong. The XA2 does better with EE at 1. Unfortunately, there is no way to adjust the intensity of the filter on the XDE.

Josh - these findings mirror exactly what Ron and I determined last week at his theater comparing my XDE to his XA2 using a fully calibrated RS1 and 120" screen. We rated the XDE as around a 1.5 using the XA2's 0-2 enhancement scale. We agree it (XDE) was slightly over sharpened and somewhat unnatural, although I would say it would only be distracting to the trained eye. The RS1 has a quite effective sharpness control which defaults to "0" on a scale of -30 to +30, and we found that a setting of around -3 seemed to mitigate this and reduce it to more watchable levels. With the sharpness turned down we felt it was equivalent to the XA2 at the "1" setting. We had the mosquito noise filter disabled on the XA2 in our viewing.

I demo'd scenes from Pirates 3 last night for some family members after dinner and was literally blown away by how good it looked in 24fps with color mode enabled using this superb transfer. Then I turned on the HD tuner and we watched a few minutes of National Treasure and I have to say I didn't find it to generally appear any less natural than the scenes from Pirates 3 using the XDE enhancements. Maybe if I nitpicked I could've found some issues, but it certainly wasn't so obvious that it was immediately apparent to anyone even after several minutes of viewing a true 1080i HD source. Then the wife and I settled down to watch "The Bucket List" and while not a reference quality transfer, I did feel the XDE did a very good job at enhancing the overall viewing experience. Yes, there are times when I might notice elements of a particular scene look artificially enhanced, but for the most part these are brief and I'm willing to look past them considering the features and performance at this price point.

Do you think it's possible to fix these problems with future firmware updates or is it a hardware problem?

I agree. I tested this player extensively last night. Anyone who says they don't see edge ringing with the picture enhancements engaged must have too small a screen. All of the enhancements cause a ton of ringing, really visible in the background of shots and around any on-screen text.
I don't see the ringing. I see a bit of tearing at times but the improvement far outweighs this artifact. Are you using 1:1 pixel mapping?

But this begs the question as to your motivation for being here. Is not your web-site devoted exclusively to and supported by Blu-ray?
Talk about an axe to grind. :(

on other tosh sd players that i've had, s video seems to me to be the cleanest s video of the many brands of dvd players that ive owned.
dont know about this new one tho.

i've had 3 different toshiba sd dvd players and they've all had difficulty playing homegrown -r discs made on my stand alone dvd recorders.
my tosh hd dvd players and all my other brand sd players play them ok.

I had mine temporarily hooked up to my Pio Elite 510 using a BJC 10ft S-video cable and I must say I was extremely impressed with the picture quality. Easily bested the S-video output on my RP91. When I got around to permanently hooking up the component outputs the difference was essentially negligible, but then again I didn't due any A/B or real critical viewing. Its also nice that the unit will output 480i on component while the output mode is set to HDMI which is hooked up to my PJ, don't have to switch output modes or mess with cables based on the device I want to use.

I've had no problems playing DVD-Rs I've made of family videos or events done by other productions (graduations, etc.) thus far.

Reincarnate, maybe Josh is just used to Blu-Ray's (or HD-DVD for that matter) perfect PQ without ringing, that he hates all ringing or Edge-Enhancement.

Just because he disagrees with you does not mean he has an agenda.

He's just saying that XDE-500 needs to allow users to dial down the "sharpness" to avoid EE on certain tittles in the menu.

Some people and some displays are much more intolerant of EE than others.

Reincarnate, maybe Josh is just used to Blu-Ray's (or HD-DVD for that matter) perfect PQ without ringing, that he hates all ringing or Edge-Enhancement.

Just because he disagrees with you does not mean he has an agenda.

He's just saying that XDE-500 needs to allow users to dial down the "sharpness" to avoid EE on certain tittles in the menu.

Some people and some displays are much more intolerant of EE than others.
The subject here is the performance of the XDE500 player. Josh never disagreed with me. The issue is his obvious (but not-stated) primary priority being to write excellent reviews for his Blu-ray site. Here we disagree about the performance and value judgment of the 500 player.

The key issue is commercial interests are divergent from the interests of the vast majority of consumers.

As evident from reading the posts, those who earn their livelihood from high definition have nothing good so say about the XDE-500. Kris Deering wrote (not to long ago at Secrets) how much enjoyment he got still got from watching SD discs. But now that he is at Home Theater he is totally behind high definition (as stated in his every post to this forum). So too am I, as from an academic point-of-view as the PQ and SQ is better.

However the triple whammy of sour economic times, Blu-ray prices skyrocketing (Warner excluded) and the investment in our large collections of SD discs, gives great pause as to jumping onto the high definition disc bandwagon.

The fact is the Toshiba XDE-500 offers new price and performance SD playback quality. If one reads all the reviews here and Amazon the majority of consumers are quite happy with their XDE-500 players. All for total cost of $150.
Its the right product at the right time.

Those who want to spend many thousands more they are welcome to go with Blu-ray. It’s a matter of priorities in life. While its fun to buy new things, its more important to be content with what you have!

Yesterday I played some Pixar/Japanese animation flicks at 24Hz and loved how stable and clear the picture was. :):):)

For me while the new Toshiba XDE-500 may offer some good performance improving SD-DVD. I would rather pass on it based on Toshiba's behavior after ending the HD war with Sony. While I will not sale my Toshiba HD-A1 and will still continue to enjoy my library of 69 HD-DVD's. I just can not see myself buying any more Toshiba products in the near future. Now you would think that Toshiba would be smart and combine the XDE technology into a Blu-ray player and be the first to market with that combo, just a thought.

Now you would think that Toshiba would be smart and combine the XDE technology into a Blu-ray player and be the first to market with that combo, just a thought.

There isnt much money made into selling BD players, even less in selling DVD players, but there is money for Toshiba with DVD royalities.

Selling BD players with "XDE technology" will not help Toshiba in gathering DVD royalites.

I did some more viewing this weekend with CGI and animation. The XDE really shines in this department. Clear and stable are great descriptive words. However, again I watched a blu ray later and SD just can't compete PQwise with an above average BD. I understand it is not supposed to. I guess it comes down to price. I am not going to rebuy most of my DVD collection so the XDE is good for me. However, new releases will definitely be BD purchases.

I don't see the ringing. I see a bit of tearing at times but the improvement far outweighs this artifact. Are you using 1:1 pixel mapping?

Honestly, I don't know how you could not see ringing. There's tons of it, everywhere. And yes, I'm using 1:1 pixel mapping on a 1080p projector. Every disc I played exhibited ringing in almost every shot.

But this begs the question as to your motivation for being here. Is not your web-site devoted exclusively to and supported by Blu-ray?
Talk about an axe to grind. :(

I don't have an axe to grind. I would only naturally prefer to watch all movies in High Definition, but like most home theater fans in this forum I also still have a large collection of DVDs that are seeing less and less playback time on my screen. If there's a way to improve DVD quality to bring it closer to HD, I certainly want to check that out.

I will certainly admit that I approach any claims of making DVD "near High-Def quality" skeptically. DVD just doesn't have the resolution or detail to compete with real High Definition. But I tried to give the player the benefit of the doubt.

Remember, before Blu-ray hit the scene, I was a DVD reviewer for years. I can tell the difference between good DVD upconversion and poor DVD upconversion. The XD-E500 is a decent upconverter for the $150 price, but it has some serious drawbacks. It does not compete with more expensive DVD players that have better MPEG decoders, better deinterlacing and scaling, and less edge ringing. And the claims that it makes DVD "near High-Def" are frankly absurd.

If Toshiba wants to be serious about XDE, they need to build a player with better MPEG decoder and processing chips, and make the intensity of the picture enhancements adjustable. The "Sharpness" filter is too strong right now. But of course, if they do that, they probably won't hit the $150 price point.

If this is the sort of compromise we're stuck with so that Toshiba can undercut the competition, then XDE is pure marketing gimmick with little substance behind it.

Honestly, I don't know how you could not see ringing. There's tons of it, everywhere. And yes, I'm using 1:1 pixel mapping on a 1080p projector. Every disc I played exhibited ringing in almost every shot.



I don't have an axe to grind. I would only naturally prefer to watch all movies in High Definition, but like most home theater fans in this forum I also still have a large collection of DVDs that are seeing less and less playback time on my screen. If there's a way to improve DVD quality to bring it closer to HD, I certainly want to check that out.

I will certainly admit that I approach any claims of making DVD "near High-Def quality" skeptically. DVD just doesn't have the resolution or detail to compete with real High Definition. But I tried to give the player the benefit of the doubt.

Remember, before Blu-ray hit the scene, I was a DVD reviewer for years. I can tell the difference between good DVD upconversion and poor DVD upconversion. The XD-E500 is a decent upconverter for the $150 price, but it has some serious drawbacks. It does not compete with more expensive DVD players that have better MPEG decoders, better deinterlacing and scaling, and less edge ringing. And the claims that it makes DVD "near High-Def" are frankly absurd.

If Toshiba wants to be serious about XDE, they need to build a player with better MPEG decoder and processing chips, and make the intensity of the picture enhancements adjustable. The "Sharpness" filter is too strong right now. But of course, if they do that, they probably won't hit the $150 price point.

If this is the sort of compromise we're stuck with so that Toshiba can undercut the competition, then XDE is pure marketing gimmick with little substance behind it.

I tend to agree to the extent that Toshiba should have at least used a top tier chip here. Good software does better with better hardware. Simple as that! Here Toshiba has a mid tier product that probably does not even match the upconverting of a PS3 (based on my preference).

That upconverted DVD cannot compete with True HD is however something I do not agree with. For instance, the DVD of many recent movies look as good if not better than the HD version of older movies. So, HOW the movie was shot has a lot of do with what the HD and SD versions will look like.

It's OK to promote your preferred format. But as long as you are clear that you would rather see HD prevail then the agenda is clear for all. I see nothing wrong is preferring one format to prevail. If I had to choose between SD and HD I would certainly prefer HD. Now, IF I had to choose between SD upconverted and HD where the HD version was $10 or $15 more, then I would rather have a choice in formats rather than have one shoved down my throat.

Personally I have no qualms with sales and marketing (that is what we are doing when we make a case for or against something). Even when it is disguised as a technical argument. All is fair in love and war :)

I would only naturally prefer to watch all movies in High Definition, but like most home theater fans in this forum I also still have a large collection of DVDs that are seeing less and less playback time on my screen.
I would naturally prefer to watch all movies in High Definition too. However you get your discs for free. Everyone else does do not. This is a huge $$$ consideration for us!
Are we even talking the same player??? Your comments are the most extreme of anyone here. Regardless of your talking points, I stand just as firm in stating the Toshiba XDE-500 player is a true advance for SD playback. That, dear friend is reality. Remember you need to sit a bit further back for standard definition.:)

BTW many high definition releases are of questionable quality (even content) too. In any event I'd recommend renting first.

Again I'd recommend potential purchasers try the XDE-500 player out for themselves in their own system as both Best Buy and Circuit City have them in stock.

That upconverted DVD cannot compete with True HD is however something I do not agree with. For instance, the DVD of many recent movies look as good if not better than the HD version of older movies. So, HOW the movie was shot has a lot of do with what the HD and SD versions will look like.

You can't compare completely different movies and make assumptions about the format they're released on. With any given movie, the HD version will almost always be better than the SD version, unless there's a serious problem with the HD transfer (which does happen sometimes).

I would naturally prefer to watch all movies in High Definition too. However you get your discs for free. Everyone else does do not. This is a huge $$$ consideration for us!

I buy far more discs than I get for free. I paid for every one of my DVD, HD DVD, and Blu-ray players out of my own pocket. Whether or not I paid for something does not factor into my evaluation of its quality.

Are we even talking the same player??? Your comments are the most extreme of anyone here. Regardless of your talking points I stand firm and stating player is a true advance for SD playback. That, dear friend is reality. Remember you need to sit a bit further back for standard definition.:)

How large is your screen and how far back do you sit?

BTW many high definition releases are of questionable quality (even content) too.

This is just as true with DVD, of course. There are many, many DVDs mastered so poorly that no upconversion processing can ever make them look good.

For my evaluation of this player, I tried to give it as much benefit of the doubt as I could. I focused on well-mastered, film-based movies that should be easier to deinterlace and scale. Again, there was no contest between the upconverted DVD and the real HD.

[QUOTE=Josh Z;14572762]Honestly, I don't know how you could not see ringing. There's tons of it, everywhere. And yes, I'm using 1:1 pixel mapping on a 1080p projector. Every disc I played exhibited ringing in almost every shot.



QUOTE]

Honestly, I don't know where you are getting the ringing. I can say with certainty there is little ringing evident on mine. In fact, I see more ringing on other machines that are "supposedly" the pinnacle of upconversion. If I didn't know you from your previous posts, I would suspect your sharpness is turned up on your display. Weird.

For me while the new Toshiba XDE-500 may offer some good performance improving SD-DVD. I would rather pass on it based on Toshiba's behavior after ending the HD war with Sony. While I will not sale my Toshiba HD-A1 and will still continue to enjoy my library of 69 HD-DVD's. I just can not see myself buying any more Toshiba products in the near future. Now you would think that Toshiba would be smart and combine the XDE technology into a Blu-ray player and be the first to market with that combo, just a thought.

I am not sure what you mean. I, for one, think Toshiba showed class by abandoning a losing format rather than trying to keep the war going even when it was evident they couldn't win and that it would be bad for everyone if they did. So, they don't want to make a BD player. Many CE companies are not making BD players.

I tend to agree to the extent that Toshiba should have at least used a top tier chip here. Good software does better with better hardware. Simple as that! Here Toshiba has a mid tier product that probably does not even match the upconverting of a PS3 (based on my preference).

That upconverted DVD cannot compete with True HD is however something I do not agree with. For instance, the DVD of many recent movies look as good if not better than the HD version of older movies. So, HOW the movie was shot has a lot of do with what the HD and SD versions will look like.

It's OK to promote your preferred format. But as long as you are clear that you would rather see HD prevail then the agenda is clear for all. I see nothing wrong is preferring one format to prevail. If I had to choose between SD and HD I would certainly prefer HD. Now, IF I had to choose between SD upconverted and HD where the HD version was $10 or $15 more, then I would rather have a choice in formats rather than have one shoved down my throat.

Personally I have no qualms with sales and marketing (that is what we are doing when we make a case for or against something). Even when it is disguised as a technical argument. All is fair in love and war :)

Well said!

The machine is already sold out on Amazon. I think that says a lot about how popular SD DVD machines still are...at least the up-converting ones. I also went to a CC near me in Long Island and they were sold out as well.

I was one of the lucky ones to nab one and as stated on this thread and another I am one happy camper. I know it's not perfect but it really works and lives up to the hype.

As for others who wonder if there is still a market for SD up-converting DVD players just look at how fast this machine is selling.

Blu-Ray is great, and I will definitely purchase one when the specs are sorted out and the price drops, but it will be a while before it can saturate the every household. There are just to many people with a large enough DVD collection to give up on. I'm one of them as well.

I buy far more discs than I get for free. I paid for every one of my DVD, HD DVD, and Blu-ray players out of my own pocket. Whether or not I paid for something does not factor into my evaluation of its quality.



How large is your screen and how far back do you sit?



This is just as true with DVD, of course. There are many, many DVDs mastered so poorly that no upconversion processing can ever make them look good.

Again, there was no contest between the upconverted DVD and the real HD.

Unfortunately, that is the truth!

If this is the sort of compromise we're stuck with so that Toshiba can undercut the competition, then XDE is pure marketing gimmick with little substance behind it.

Thank you Josh!


From,

Some guy with no base... lol

This is just as true with DVD, of course. There are many, many DVDs mastered so poorly that no upconversion processing can ever make them look good.

I totally agree, Highlander is one of those titles that I do not think any upconverting player can make look good. I am not doubting that the XDE player does not help improve dvd playback. But I feel that it is more of a gimmick from the stand point that Toshiba is more interested in holding onto DVD royalties than joining in the HD revolution. HD is clearly the future and with companies like Onkyo, Yamaha and others offering Blu-ray players. How can Toshiba sit in the corner screaming we will never ever build a Blu-ray player? Ultimately I feel the XDE technology is just a attempt to hold on to there revenue stream and try to undermine Blu-ray as much as they can, even if it is just a little bit.

I totally agree, Highlander is one of those titles that I do not think any upconverting player can make look good. I am not doubting that the XDE player does not help improve dvd playback. But I feel that it is more of a gimmick from the stand point that Toshiba is more interested in holding onto DVD royalties than joining in the HD revolution. HD is clearly the future and with companies like Onkyo, Yamaha and others offering Blu-ray players. How can Toshiba sit in the corner screaming we will never ever build a Blu-ray player? Ultimately I feel the XDE technology is just a attempt to hold on to there revenue stream and try to undermine Blu-ray as much as they can, even if it is just a little bit.

I'm not convinced that HD is the future...at least in terms of blu-ray. I know several people (friends and family who are blu-ray owners and/or HDTV owners), myself included, who have become lukewarm to blu-ray. Is it worth the cost? Clearly it is to most of the people who post here...but the people who post on this board are not most people. Not to say that it's not great PQ and SQ...which blu-ray certainly offers, but when you're saving for retirement, raising two kids, paying off law school, paying your mortgage, paying for daycare, paying for gas, and paying for a new roof, the $5 and $7.50 dvd bins at Wally-world look pretty damn good.

I've not bought a BD since about May and I really don't plan on getting any..even the ones that would be cool like the Godfather or The Dark Knight.

I don't think it's a problem if blu-ray ends up being a niche gadget; SD dvd is good enough for most; it is after all, a pretty damn good way of watching a movie....i'm home right now getting over knee surgery and watching Lord of the Rings...all three....and I've spent zero time wishing it was out on blu. them is my thoughts.

I'm not convinced that HD is the future...at least in terms of blu-ray. I know several people (friends and family who are blu-ray owners and/or HDTV owners), myself included, who have become lukewarm to blu-ray. Is it worth the cost? Clearly it is to most of the people who post here...but the people who post on this board are not most people. Not to say that it's not great PQ and SQ...which blu-ray certainly offers, but when you're saving for retirement, raising two kids, paying off law school, paying your mortgage, paying for daycare, paying for gas, and paying for a new roof, the $5 and $7.50 dvd bins at Wally-world look pretty damn good.
.

blurays are well worth it. I'm in that group that no longer buys movies but rent them. I have few hundred dvds from back in early 00's, they just sit on the rack collecting dust. Buying movies were one of the biggest waste of my money, least for me. Now with services like Netflix/BB Online whats the point of paying for movies that sits on a rack when your constantly getting new movies?? For 20bux a month I get 3 new movies a week to watch, I only buy if the movie is excellent like Pixar features. Whenever I want to watch a movie again, throw it in the queue.

blurays are well worth it. I'm in that group that no longer buys movies but rent them. I have few hundred dvds from back in early 00's, they just sit on the rack collecting dust. Buying movies were one of the biggest waste of my money, least for me. Now with services like Netflix/BB Online whats the point of paying for movies that sits on a rack when your constantly getting new movies?? For 20bux a month I get 3 new movies a week to watch, I only buy if the movie is excellent like Pixar features. Whenever I want to watch a movie again, throw it in the queue.

I still enjoy buying movies if I suspect I will watch them multiple times, but I also rent quite a bit as well. And I agree. It is still cheaper to rent the movie (whether it be Blu-Ray or HD DVD) than it is to pay $5-7 at the discount DVD bin.

Here's a few more screenshots from the Episode 3 DVD. The first is with sharpness off. The second with it on. Pausing the frames causes aliasing, so I had to take it while the movie was playing (hence not exactly the same frame in each picture). Ignore the blurriness on obi wan's right hand and face since they were moving. Look at obi wan's robe and how much more detail comes out. Also note the window on the ship and the small details that show up with the sharpness on. Anakin's hair also has more detail showing.

These shots were taken from my 720P Mitsubishi HC1500 with the XDE set to Auto (720P).

Now that I've played with the XDE for a day or two, I really like it. No, it doesn't make DVD's look like Blu Ray, and for that matter nothing will. The difference between these two images are subtle, but it really looks great when you see it in motion. Without question, it's the best $150 I've spent in a while. My garbage $50 upscaling philips player doesn't hold a candle to this thing in terms of image quality.

I have no idea how it compares to $400 DVD players, since comparing it to one of those is ridiculous. If you're going to spend that, just get a blu ray player.

EDIT: I added another shot highlighting some of the changes I'm seeing stick out at me when flipping between the shots. Note that AVS forum only allows 1024 x 768 and some of the detail is lost when downscaling the images.

Here's a few more screenshots from the Episode 3 DVD. The first is with sharpness off. The second with it on. Pausing the frames causes aliasing, so I had to take it while the movie was playing (hence not exactly the same frame in each picture). Ignore the blurriness on obi wan's right hand and face since they were moving. Look at obi wan's robe and how much more detail comes out. Also note the window on the ship and the small details that show up with the sharpness on. Anakin's hair also has more detail showing.

These shots were taken from my 720P Mitsubishi HC1500 with the XDE set to Auto (720P).

Now that I've played with the XDE for a day or two, I really like it. No, it doesn't make DVD's look like Blu Ray, and for that matter nothing will. The difference between these two images are subtle, but it really looks great when you see it in motion. Without question, it's the best $150 I've spent in a while. My garbage $50 upscaling philips player doesn't hold a candle to this thing in terms of image quality.

I have no idea how it compares to $400 DVD players, since comparing it to one of those is ridiculous. If you're going to spend that, just get a blu ray player.

EDIT: I added another shot highlighting some of the changes I'm seeing stick out at me when flipping between the shots. Note that AVS forum only allows 1024 x 768 and some of the detail is lost when downscaling the images.

How about using the same frame? you chose one static and one with motion, thats a poor comparison. but it does seem to add a sharoper image on the static backdrop. not bad

Quote from Amazon:
"Engadget is totally hilarious..they really need to clean up that crew over there. A bunch of Sony and Apple fanboys that push their own rants as news. It's ridiculous.

The fact that this is posted on EngadgetHD and is in no way HD news is proof enough how many fanboys work for Engadget. The fact is, they are owned by Warner so it's no wonder they will spit at anything that might even remotely go against Blu-Ray considering that they got their pockets fattened by Sony and in this case it's a natural progression of DVD format. God forbid people are objective about this.

It just shows the amount of brainless people posting their opinions about something that is completely retarded.

This is a DVD player that will provide even better results then the best upscaling players today. Of course, the fear from BDA and BD fanboys is understandable because they would all want people to spend $400-$500+ on unfinished players and $20-$30 old catalog movies.

Unfortunately for them, 3% of the total market has ZERO influence and as discussed many times even here on Amazon discussion forums, Blu-Ray will remain niche until they realize that this greedy and cartel like behavior won't fly. If they have issues understanding this, the reality will kick in soon enough. The sales are absolutely horrible for Blu-Ray and it's only logical for people to push DVD technology to the max still as it generations incomparably more money.

I personally can't remember when was the last time I bought a Blu-Ray disc because the movies they are releasing is complete and utter crap and they cost $20-$30 a pop for old titles. That's completely insane.

There are maybe 5 movies worth really buying this year on Blu-Ray if that. Iron Man, Batman, Hellboy 2, Hulk and I don't know maybe 1 or 2 movies. That's simply pathetic. With that reality, the only way Blu-Ray will be going is down and it's in no way Toshiba's fault. If anything Toshiba is totally smart for not getting on Blu-Ray losing train. They lost money with HD DVD and they won't be losing money with Blu-Ray like others are doing now."

****
I agree. I did a Google of Warner and Engadget and bingo - Warner really does own and run Engadget. As Paul Harvey says: now you know the rest of the story. Another biased-to-no-end review/talking point :o

This is an an SD forum for SD players. The Toshiba ranks up at the top, especially when the cost is considered. If you are not here to discuss first rate playback of standard definition, then move on.

Being so objective fair and balanced and totally ground in science, can I be a moderator? What are the qualifications:cool:

Uh, well, it would appear that joltdudeuc has shown his true colors.... and that others seem to think the same as I about his "review".
There are intelligent posters on this forum and their content is evident.
My hat is off to those contributors
Its not a review. Its my opinion. This player is not worth the review.

For those familiar, how would you say the XD-E500 compares to the PS3's upconversion?
Not really. The PS3 has a softness to it that's hard to describe, but overall is much more natural and "legit" than the XDE. This with NR and other things turns off in the PS3 of course. PS3 is a computational monster, it can do some things no other DVD player to date can do. For instance how it handles anime and the cadences they are encoded with.

Here's a few more screenshots from the Episode 3 DVD. The first is with sharpness off. The second with it on.

The problem with this comparison is that the XDE player has a mediocre MPEG decoder and produces a very soft picture when you turn the enhancements off. The enhancements try to compensate for that by applying artificial sharpening.

Another DVD player with a better MPEG decoder will not be as soft, with or without any "enhancements" applied.

http://www.hdtv-praxis.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&topic_id=2&page_id=554

they complain about excessive ringing as well and say the best image is with the enhancments off.....ouch

deinterlacing is also broken.

We need Kris Deering to look at this player :D

That German review clearly showed worsened Edge-Enhancement on "sharp" mode. Use Google Translate to read it.

We need Kris Deering to look at this player :D
So I would be surprised if it was over 80 to be honest. To be fair, it would have to be tested on the sharp mode, since that's what all the commotion is about.

http://www.hdtv-praxis.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&topic_id=2&page_id=554

they complain about excessive ringing as well and say the best image is with the enhancments off.....ouch

deinterlacing is also broken.
Well, unfortunately that's what players with excessive edge enhancement do. Unfortunately this board seems less enthusiast and more joe-shmoe. :(

http://www.hdtv-praxis.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&topic_id=2&page_id=554

they complain about excessive ringing as well and say the best image is with the enhancments off.....ouch
Like everyone says expect the industry (who live off of new technology) to be dead set against the tide turning back. Standard definition is NOT going to surrender. To them I unabashedly plagiarize and say "Nuts!"

Who else is having a good time here?:cool:

The problem with this comparison is that the XDE player has a mediocre MPEG decoder and produces a very soft picture when you turn the enhancements off. The enhancements try to compensate for that by applying artificial sharpening.

Another DVD player with a better MPEG decoder will not be as soft, with or without any "enhancements" applied.

Which SD player do you feel does a good job?(I'm looking to buy a dedicated SD player, but unless it does real well I'm better off getting one that passes 480i over HDMI unaltered and let my Kuro do a decent job of it)
I hate any artificial enhancements, EE and DNR...if that makes a difference.

Oppo 983H is best (Mediatek MPEG decoder, ABT scaling, ABT deinterlacing), but will cost you dearly $399 (free shipping at Amazon). It has DivX, SACD, DVD-A, USB, and region free also.

Like everyone says expect the industry (who live off of new technology) to be dead set against the tide turning back. Standard definition is NOT going to surrender. To them I unabashedly plagiarize and say "Nuts!"

Who else is having a good time here?:cool:

HuH? and i thought it was about movie playback quality......
that reads like, "please let me stick my head in the sand"

Huey....So, the next best would be a player that uses the same set-up?(any less expensive ones that do?--like under $300 shipped)

The problem with this comparison is that the XDE player has a mediocre MPEG decoder and produces a very soft picture when you turn the enhancements off. The enhancements try to compensate for that by applying artificial sharpening.

Another DVD player with a better MPEG decoder will not be as soft, with or without any "enhancements" applied.

Couldn't agree more, Toshiba were demonstrating this player at IFA... the display which had the "Processing Off" card under it looked better than the one with the "enhancement" modes turned on, but even then the deinterlacing was very poor. Given the hype that's surrounded "XDE", I couldn't help but chuckle.

Well, unfortunately that's what players with excessive edge enhancement do. Unfortunately this board seems less enthusiast and more joe-shmoe. :(

Always comes to comments like that, doesn't it? A damned shame that a half dozen children can cruise a thread and destroy it's intent. The German website, like you, is hardly unbiased.

The XDE looks great on my 60A3000 Sony. It's a keeper! But, then, I don't have your golden eyes (or your arrogance.)

Attached is the upper third of the Thx frequency response test pattern with sharpness OFF and then with sharpness ON.

The two pictures are best viewed in rapid succession with Windows photo viewer as the OFF setting is much less white and fuzzier.

Again and again, the XDE-500 has the best high-end frequency response, contrast and detail I've ever seen. Note that the red-herring of ringing in absent. Science guys.
The is an area which the player is mediocre, which I already pointed out. Does anyone else know or care what this is?;)


Sharp OFF attached

Sharp ON attached

Always comes to comments like that, doesn't it? A damned shame that a half dozen children can cruise a thread and destroy it's intent. The German website, like you, is hardly unbiased.

The XDE looks great on my 60A3000 Sony. It's a keeper! But, then, I don't have your golden eyes (or your arrogance.)

of course, you have added nothing to the discussion with your mature comments here:rolleyes:

Sharp ON attached

but if you look at the thick white lines with sharp on, they are now an awfull mess(and very blurry by the way, that cant be right?). must be the science. with sharp off the image is pretty soft lookin, is it really that bad?

To be fair, if you tell me which disc that pattern is on i will test it on a HQV based player and a Anchor bay based one and see if they look the same.

Always comes to comments like that, doesn't it? A damned shame that a half dozen children can cruise a thread and destroy it's intent. The German website, like you, is hardly unbiased.

The XDE looks great on my 60A3000 Sony. It's a keeper! But, then, I don't have your golden eyes (or your arrogance.)
Arrogance??

Because I'm not willing to jump on the bandwagon? Thanks for insult.

It's fake, and that's about it.

but if you look at the thick white lines with sharp on, they are now an awfull mess. must be the science. with sharp off the image is pretty soft lookin, is it really that bad?
You are not making any sense out of a simple frequency response chart. To a casual observer they are almost identical. So obviously you are up to no good here. Please stop the scorched earth tactics.

Are you an Toshiba XDE-500 owner? I see from your previous posts that your interest is in SIM2 and Meridian projectors with prices of $30,000 to $180,000 dollars. So we have a weird set of posts here folks from a knowledgeable member on some type of crazy mission. Simply amazing

The Toshiba XDE-500 must be gaining a lot of consumer acceptance for so many people to be upset over a $150 Dvd player! Most remarkable.

Also I recommend the $12 Monoprice (an AVS forum sponsor) HDMI cables even if some magazines now claim they (well at least their advertisers) can see a difference compared to the $300 ones. :)

Always comes to comments like that, doesn't it? A damned shame that a half dozen children can cruise a thread and destroy it's intent. The German website, like you, is hardly unbiased.

The XDE looks great on my 60A3000 Sony. It's a keeper! But, then, I don't have your golden eyes (or your arrogance.)

I bet you have the contrast cranked, live color on, color all the way up and detail enhancer to high also. I don't need every movie to look like a Micheal Bay film.

Attached is the upper third of the Thx frequency response test pattern with sharpness OFF and then with sharpness ON.

The two pictures are best viewed in rapid succession with Windows photo viewer as the OFF setting is much less white and fuzzier.

Again and again, the XDE-500 has the best high-end frequency response, contrast and detail I've ever seen. Note that the red-herring of ringing in absent. Science guys.
The is an area which the player is mediocre, which I already pointed out. Does anyone else know or care what this is?;)


Sharp OFF attached
This looks like you took a picture of your computer screen with your Nikon Camera... That's not going to look good at all.

Sharp ON attached
This is a much less compressed, note the size of the file.

Also, could this be a "print screen" version instead of a photo from your Nikon Camera?

Could you please do this again, this time with more control over the testing procedure?

Well to me it looks like the people that actually own these things seem to like them. What's wrong with that.

It also looks to me like there are some that don't own these things and don't like them. I guess there is nothing wrong with that as well but why waste your time here. If I don't like root beer soda based on what I've read I don't waste my time running around telling everybody who likes root beer soda they are wrong.

I own one of the XDE players. Not bad. It does some tricks that in my opinion work pretty good. It's priced at $150 which isn't bad and the price will be going down - my guess.

I also own a Reon HQV based player. I like it better. But it wasn't sold at mass market for $150 either.

No DVD player should ever be compared to high definition - so hopefully this one won't be. This player seems to be nothing more than an upscaling DVD player. Some of the angst in this thread is puzzling.

You are not making any sense out of a simple frequency response chart. To a casual observer they are almost identical. So obviously you are up to no good here. Please stop the scorched earth tactics.

Are you an Toshiba XDE-500 owner? I see from your previous posts that your interest is in SIM2 and Meridian projectors with prices of $30,000 to $180,000 dollars. So we have a weird set of posts here folks from a knowledgeable member on some type of crazy mission. Simply amazing

The Toshiba XDE-500 must be gaining a lot of consumer acceptance for so many people to be upset over a $150 Dvd player! Most remarkable.

Also I recommend the $12 Monoprice (an AVS forum sponsor) HDMI cables even if some magazines now claim they (well at least their advertisers) can see a difference compared to the $300 ones. :)

quite possibly the most stupid response i have ever read on this forum.
Seems like you have an agenda with these personnel attacks. You actually went looking at post history in an attempt to discredit? so sad. I kow you can go off on one from reading your post in the projector forums but a new low:rolleyes:.

How about you just tell me where to get the same test pattern so i can do a comparison?
if the $150 XDE really is the bees knees then it can have a place in my rack (cant get one in the UK until october so its pre purchase homework time).
I have alot of SD DVDs and would always be interested in getting the best from them, so lets cut the crap and get down to real evidence so i can make an informed decision before a purchase.

So far its a mixed bag with OP having images that looked better on the oppo that was more money.

As for mass consumer acceptance, well we will see, as going by some of the rubbish people buy as dvd players this cant be any worse thats for sure.

Well, unfortunately that's what players with excessive edge enhancement do. Unfortunately this board seems less enthusiast and more joe-shmoe. :(

If Blu Ray wants to focus just on the enthusiasts that's fine. The whole premise is whether joeschmo will buy into Blu Ray or simply ignore it as an over priced product with limited content compared to DVD. What we are seeing perhaps is the Blu Ray supporters trying their best to go on the offensive against anything that is remotely pro DVD.

but the bottomline is that even Blu Ray manufacturers are seeing the light. That DVD is how most people will be watching movies at home. It all started with adding upconverting on the PS3 and the fact that no standalone player that does DVD upconversion poorly will sell well. End of story.

Joeschmo is smart enough to understand that the DVD v Blu Ray side by side demos running on the demo disk are flat out deceptive. No DVD I have seen looks that hazy!

How about you just tell me where to get the same test pattern so i can do a comparison?

Its the widely distributed Thx frequency response pattern which has been available for years on many top quality SD discs. I used The Incredible's. You may also do a Google search for Thx Optimizer or just go to the nice writeup by Shane:
http://www.hometheatermag.com/advicefromtheexperts/407cali/


http://www.hometheatermag.com/images/bgimages/407cali.6.jpg

What we are seeing perhaps is the Blu Ray supporters trying their best to go on the offensive against anything that is remotely pro DVD.

This would make sense if the forum combined DVD and Blu-Ray/HD DVD talk. It does not. This post, and all posters, are under the DVD Players (Standard Definition) forum, and know very well that the limits of the conversation are about the abilities of SD DVD-Video playback.

There are three groups which always emerge in these kind of discussions:

The Converts: People who like what the XDE is doing to their standard definition discs. User may be less than discriminating, or prefer the enhancements which give their DVDs more "pop" and "wow".

The Old Guard: People who have been DVD enthusiasts for years, and find the quality of the XDE to be poor or below that of competitive products. These people tend to be the ones who do not like enhancements; who prefer their picture looking as close to the original DVD mastering as possible.

The New Guard: People who promote Blu-Ray/HD DVD as much as possible, however, they have a vested interest in their DVD collection. These people are still looking to squeeze the most out of their DVD collection.

It is disingenuous to assume that all those who do not like the XDE have obvious agendas of conflicts of interest. In the end, the quality of the picture is in the eye of the beholder; the eye of a subjective mind.

VERY well said and I'd have to say I fit almost perfectly into the "new guard".
I love HD media and hope it succeeds in a physical disc format.(not streaming inferiority)
But I also have a ton of SD-DVD's and would like them to look their best.
Again, well put Neuromancer.

Sharp ON attached

Look at the word "Lucasfilm" at the bottom of that screen shot you attached. There is clearly ringing around the letters. It's hard to see in this dark image, but it's there.

You say you took this frame from the THX Optimizer section of The Incredibles? On that very same disc, go to the main menu. Ringing around every letter in the text with any of the enhancements on. The ringing goes away when you turn the enhancements off. This is unmissable. If you're not seeing it, you are deliberately trying not to see it.

Well to me it looks like the people that actually own these things seem to like them. What's wrong with that.

It also looks to me like there are some that don't own these things and don't like them. I guess there is nothing wrong with that as well but why waste your time here. If I don't like root beer soda based on what I've read I don't waste my time running around telling everybody who likes root beer soda they are wrong.

There's nothing wrong with liking this player. For $150, it's a fairly decent upconverter. What it is not, however, is the second coming of DVD. The player has some serious shortcomings and can in no way be considered a serious threat to real High Definition content. If you're fine with that, then by all means enjoy it.

There's nothing wrong with liking this player. For $150, it's a fairly decent upconverter. What it is not, however, is the second coming of DVD. The player has some serious shortcomings and can in no way be considered a serious threat to real High Definition content. If you're fine with that, then by all means enjoy it.

A serious threat to high definition? You're kidding right? If you ever thought that needed a clarification then you are spending too much time reading posts in forums like this - and others.

It is an upconverting DVD player that makes marketing claims similar to that of all CE manufacturers. Even the CE manufacturers that manufacture Blu-ray players make similar claims when it comes to their upconverting DVD players.

I wish I had a nickle for every upconverting DVD player that contained the words "near HD" or "1080p" output on the box.

Here's an interesting one. I call it the "resolution doubler". I wonder if it adds detail. :rolleyes::

Watch your favorite movies with this DVD player which features [...] technology for maximum resolution and enhanced detail and sharpness.

1080p video output gives you an HDTV-compliant picture with roughly twice the resolution of progressive-scan DVD players

Enhanced detail and sharpness. Sound familiar?

From here: It's a Sony (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8731241&type=product&id=1201307506837)

Panasonic makes fantastic claims too. So does Samsung, LG, Pioneer and the list goes on....and on. Just add Toshiba to the list. It is not a list exclusive to Toshiba.

What is the average Joe supposed to think.

nextoo...josh clearly said it is not a threat to real HD. I think you misunderstood him.

nextoo...josh clearly said it is not a threat to real HD. I think you misunderstood him.

I was responding to this:

The player has some serious shortcomings and can in no way be considered a serious threat to real High Definition content.

Huh? Like no kidding.

How about this DVD upconverter. Sounds pretty good:

Hey, just because you've just purchased a huge, flat-panel HDTV, that doesn't mean that you can't enjoy all of your favorite DVD movies in hi def. While DVDs do contain 480i standard-definition content, your DVPNS700H has a cool trick up its sleeve — 1080p upscaling via HDMI. Video processing technology upscales DVD video content to 1080p, the highest resolution currently available. So, not only will you still be enjoying your favorite DVDs, you'll be seeing every scene in 1080p high definition. In addition, powerful video and audio digital-to-analog converters deliver clear and precise video and audio content reproduction for a dynamic home-video experience

From Vann's. An authorized Sony reseller. From here: It's a Sony - Again (http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/486767909/sony-dvp-ns700h)

These fantastic claims are ubiquitous. They all claim near HD etc. Increased detail. Increased sharpness. Regardless of the CE. Why is this Toshiba so offensive?

Cnet's review of the XDE is posted:
http://reviews.cnet.com/video-players-and-recorders/toshiba-xd-e500/4505-6463_7-33224998.html?tag=mncol;lst

They give it a 3.0 out of 5.0 stars
They say it is solid upscaling player but pricey and recommend you disable the XDE features to get the best performance (kinda ironic and seems to be inline what Josh Z and Goatse and several others stated).

Here is a quick summary:
The good:
Solid DVD playback performance with extended definition (XDE) disabled; can play DivX, MP3, and WMA files burned on CDs and DVDs; can output DVD in 24 frames per second.

The bad:
Expensive for a DVD player; XDE picture controls are best left off for the most-accurate picture; lacks features such as SACD playback and a USB port found on competing Oppo models; poor aspect ratio control on nonanamorphic DVDs.

The bottom line:
The Toshiba XD-E500's XDE picture enhancements don't live up to the hype. While it's a solid upscaling DVD player, its high price makes it a hard sell.

Specifications:
Sound output mode: Stereo; Weight: 3.5 lbs; Surround sound effects: 3D Surround; See full specs

Price range: $139.98 - $149.99

Here is another review from Digital trends:

http://reviews.digitaltrends.com/review/5531-27663-1/toshiba-xd-e500-review-testing-and-conclusion

They seemed to like it more than the Cnet review and stated that it compared favorably to a well know upconverting dvd player ( I am assuming an Oppo as they scored both the xd-e500 and oppo 981 an 8.5).

Quote:
"How did they compare (xde picture modes) with one of my favorite DVD player (from a leading upconverting DVD manufacturer)? Quite favorably! I was able to place key scenes side-by-side so that I could easily judge image quality, and I have to say the images portrayed on the XD-E500 were somewhat sharper, clearer, and did offer more contrast than this leading upconverting DVD player model. Is the Toshiba XD-E500 worth the price? Absolutely!"

This seems to be inline with several other who have posted saying they liked the xde picture. To each his own..

I have been using this player for a few days now. I will say that I prefer it to my PS3 when it comes to up converting standard dvd. I by no means feel that it is a threat to BD.
If I were going to return the 500 for any reason it would be for its improper handling of 4:3 content. I have hundreds of classics and I don't want to watch them "stretched to fit". Any feeling on whether Toshiba can fix this issue with a firmware upgrade?

I read the CNET review as well. Seems about right. Although I think the sharpness/color/contrast controls will appeal to the average consumer more than any reviewer may realize.

Here's something I found interesting from the review:

Finally, we took a look at Serenity and the XD-E500 did a good job with the action-packed sci-fi flick. We compared it directly with the Oppo DV-983H, and while the DV-983H definitely did a better job, but the difference was minor, as it often is when comparing upscaling DVD players.


At least as far as PQ was concerned the difference was "minor"? The 983H sells for $399. Granted the 983H has an expanded feature set but the way the CNET review reads it gave me the impression of a backhanded slap on the 983H.

I have been using this player for a few days now. I will say that I prefer it to my PS3 when it comes to up converting standard dvd. I by no means feel that it is a threat to BD.
If I were going to return the 500 for any reason it would be for its improper handling of 4:3 content. I have hundreds of classics and I don't want to watch them "stretched to fit". Any feeling on whether Toshiba can fix this issue with a firmware upgrade?

If you want to watch 4:3 content correctly I read that it is possible if you set the output to 480p. Not sure if it works and it defeats the purpose of the player but again I did pick this up from a post on here.

http://reviews.cnet.com/video-player...?tag=mncol;lst

They give it a 3.0 out of 5.0 stars
They say it is solid upscaling player but pricey and recommend you disable the XDE features to get the best performance (kinda ironic and seems to be inline what Josh Z and Goatse and several others stated).

Here is a quick summary:

Quote:
The good:
Solid DVD playback performance with extended definition (XDE) disabled; can play DivX, MP3, and WMA files burned on CDs and DVDs; can output DVD in 24 frames per second.

The bad:
Expensive for a DVD player; XDE picture controls are best left off for the most-accurate picture; lacks features such as SACD playback and a USB port found on competing Oppo models; poor aspect ratio control on nonanamorphic DVDs.

The bottom line:
The Toshiba XD-E500's XDE picture enhancements don't live up to the hype. While it's a solid upscaling DVD player, its high price makes it a hard sell.

Specifications:
Sound output mode: Stereo; Weight: 3.5 lbs; Surround sound effects: 3D Surround; See full specs

Price range: $139.98 - $149.99

This review sums up the player perfectly. After playing with it for 5 days now, it's going back tomorrow for the above mentioned reasons, as well as not being able to use 1080p with my old 4:3 movies.

I'm not convinced that HD is the future...at least in terms of blu-ray. I know several people (friends and family who are blu-ray owners and/or HDTV owners), myself included, who have become lukewarm to blu-ray. Is it worth the cost? Clearly it is to most of the people who post here...but the people who post on this board are not most people. Not to say that it's not great PQ and SQ...which blu-ray certainly offers, but when you're saving for retirement, raising two kids, paying off law school, paying your mortgage, paying for daycare, paying for gas, and paying for a new roof, the $5 and $7.50 dvd bins at Wally-world look pretty damn good.

I've not bought a BD since about May and I really don't plan on getting any..even the ones that would be cool like the Godfather or The Dark Knight.

I don't think it's a problem if blu-ray ends up being a niche gadget; SD dvd is good enough for most; it is after all, a pretty damn good way of watching a movie....i'm home right now getting over knee surgery and watching Lord of the Rings...all three....and I've spent zero time wishing it was out on blu. them is my thoughts.

Hi partner:)..Called you that bec this is exactly my view. ;)..I started out with hddvd and bought up to 167 titles, then I bought a ps3. I bought bluray movies left and right during 2007 bec of lots of buy one get one and I have the additional ten percent discount on amazon. I ended up with 350 or more bluray titles. I have over 600 standard dvds. After my cute daughter:D was born this year I also stop buying bluray discs and suddenly dvd is good enough for me because of the price. I became realistic and became selective on blu titles. Recently amazon had a dvd sale: 3 titles for 10 dollars, Alien quadrilogy for 25 dollars on gold box now. I mean how can you beat that. I know one can rent but Im a collector and where I live right now, I have no access for rentals.

I recently bought an oppo 980 bec I just wanna get the best for my dvds with the best priced player. I get really excited watching these dvds getting better and better with pq. I bought the 980 one week apart from the XDE's release which made me so mad:D..Patience is indeed a virtue. I'm still getting this XDE player.;) You are right saying there are so much more people with this kind of mentality/view on "where to spend their money more wisely" Everything is so much more expensive now starting with gas.

Here is another review from Digital trends:

http://reviews.digitaltrends.com/review/5531-27663-1/toshiba-xd-e500-review-testing-and-conclusion

They seemed to like it more than the Cnet review and stated that it compared favorably to a well know upconverting dvd player ( I am assuming an Oppo as they scored both the xd-e500 and oppo 981 an 8.5).

Quote:
"How did they compare (xde picture modes) with one of my favorite DVD player (from a leading upconverting DVD manufacturer)? Quite favorably! I was able to place key scenes side-by-side so that I could easily judge image quality, and I have to say the images portrayed on the XD-E500 were somewhat sharper, clearer, and did offer more contrast than this leading upconverting DVD player model. Is the Toshiba XD-E500 worth the price? Absolutely!"

This seems to be inline with several other who have posted saying they liked the xde picture. To each his own..


Yup to each his own alright. I like sharp picture, thats why I bought the 980 over the 981 bec they say the 980 has a sharper picture. Notice cnet also says that the oppo980 is also expensive and can get others at a cheaper price. Cant wait to buy this toshiba;)

http://www.hdtv-praxis.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&topic_id=2&page_id=554

they complain about excessive ringing as well and say the best image is with the enhancments off.....ouch

deinterlacing is also broken.

Human translation of the concluding remarks:


To sum up, we were expecting a lot more. With the XD-E500KE, Toshiba offers a standard DVD player that does what it's meant to do – play DVDs. If you're looking for a standard DVD player, and the ordinary deinterlacing isn't distracting, then you can go for it; if you want a hidef player, you should buy a Blu-ray player. Any comparison with an HD player is quite unrealistic, especially considering that for instance Toshiba showed with the XE1 [XA2] HD DVD player where was the top level regarding DVD upscaling and picture quality.

Customers looking for an HD experience with the XD-E500 are bound to be disappointed, if you excuse our blunt words. We can only recommend Toshiba that they should forget as soon as possible that they lost the HD DVD vs Blu-ray war, and that they launch a Blu-ray player. Otherwise they are only damaging themselves. Toshiba can do it, we are sure about it. We'll have a detailed test of the device soon.

Grubert, I dont really understand what their point is?

You should buy BD player because the XE1(XA2) was top level in terms of DVD upscaling?

There is always a market for DVD upscaling player, as long as people have large collection, BD players cost more and is not as easy to use for the avarage consumer (startup time etc).

But if this Toshiba is the one they should buy, is of course a different question.

Grubert, I dont really understand what their point is?



I think their point is: what we have here is a severe case of the emperor's new clothes. ;)

whole point is that if you like oversharpend and over saturated picture, you don't have to pay 150dollars to do so. Pick up a cheap 80dollar player and let your tv do the enhancing.

I am dubious about any CNet reviews on audio/video, and that HDTV site is clearly biased toward Blu-Ray also. Sony was willing to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to win the format war, so you can bet a few million more in the hands of the media to thwart anything else that stands in the way of a total BD victory is not out of the question. I found the screen shots provided earlier in this forum more convincing than the obvious PR from those media whores. That said, at this point I am more likely to invest my $150 toward a purchase of the DVDO Edge than toward any DVD (or BD) player.

whole point is that if you like oversharpend and over saturated picture, you don't have to pay 150dollars to do so. Pick up a cheap 80dollar player and let your tv do the enhancing.


That depends on how they sharpen, if its just edgeenhancment over the entire picture, then you can get away with just add sharpness to your display, but if its using EE on selected areas on the frame, its something else, that you cant replicate in your home.

I am dubious about any CNet reviews on audio/video, and that HDTV site is clearly biased toward Blu-Ray also.

False. Just look hdtv praxis's review of the Toshiba E1 ("recommended buy" and the XE1 ("reference class"):
http://www.hdtv-praxis.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&topic_id=21&page_id=253&ppart=7#section7
http://www.hdtv-praxis.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&topic_id=21&page_id=289&ppart=7#section7

They were much harder on the Panasonic BD10:
http://www.hdtv-praxis.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&topic_id=21&page_id=274&ppart=7#section7

Sony was willing to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to win the format war, so you can bet a few million more in the hands of the media to thwart anything else that stands in the way of a total BD victory is not out of the question.

People living in glass houses...

Toshiba paid Paramount and Dreamworks (the studios themselves have admitted that) for exclusive support, so you can bet a few million more in the hands of the media to spoil BD's adoption and/or extend DVD's life is not out of the question. :rolleyes:

I found the screen shots provided earlier in this forum more convincing than the obvious PR from those media whores.

What about these screenshots?

http://www.hdtv-praxis.de/tests/DVD_Player2008/XDE/nichtscharf.jpg
Processing off

http://www.hdtv-praxis.de/tests/DVD_Player2008/XDE/doppelkontur.jpg
"Sharp" mode on

That depends on how they sharpen, if its just edgeenhancment over the entire picture, then you can get away with just add sharpness to your display, but if its using EE on selected areas on the frame, its something else, that you cant replicate in your home.

Pretty much all tvs have some sort of detail enchancement with out the use of traditional shapness. On my Sony, I can use the "detail enhancer" to full and achieve the color by using "live color" and contrast for "dark detail".

Gotta love that Edge Enhancement (ringing) on "sharp" mode. Tosh. should allow end-user to adjust the level of sharpness boost to customize one's preferences. Some displays and screen sizes show EE better than others (LCD > DLP > plasma > CRT).

It is an upconverting DVD player that makes marketing claims similar to that of all CE manufacturers. Even the CE manufacturers that manufacture Blu-ray players make similar claims when it comes to their upconverting DVD players.

I wish I had a nickle for every upconverting DVD player that contained the words "near HD" or "1080p" output on the box.

Here's an interesting one. I call it the "resolution doubler". I wonder if it adds detail. :rolleyes::

Enhanced detail and sharpness. Sound familiar?

From here: It's a Sony (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8731241&type=product&id=1201307506837)

Panasonic makes fantastic claims too. So does Samsung, LG, Pioneer and the list goes on....and on. Just add Toshiba to the list. It is not a list exclusive to Toshiba.

You're right, those other manufacturers make similar ridiculous claims. The difference is that people, including many in this thread, seem to be believing Toshiba's claims.

What about these screenshots?

http://www.hdtv-praxis.de/tests/DVD_Player2008/XDE/nichtscharf.jpg
Processing off

http://www.hdtv-praxis.de/tests/DVD_Player2008/XDE/doppelkontur.jpg
"Sharp" mode on

This is exactly what I see on every disc in this player.

You're right, those other manufacturers make similar ridiculous claims. The difference is that people, including many in this thread, seem to be believing Toshiba's claims.It's the easiest thing in the world, isn't it, to pi$$ on others. Why don't members here let people decide for themselves, instead of persisting to take the "easy" route? :rolleyes:

Oh, and HAMMERING on it, over and over and over... and over again! Give it up already!

It's the easiest thing in the world, isn't it, to pi$$ on others. Why don't members here let people decide for themselves, instead of persisting to take the "easy" route? :rolleyes:

Oh, and HAMMERING on it, over and over and over... and over again! Give it up already!

What is the point of this post? What I am trying to do is give people information about both the player's strengths and weaknesses so that they can make an informed decision about whether it's worth the purchase price.

$150 is not a big investment, and if people are willing to live with some edge ringing then this player may still be worth a purchase.

However, some people here are trying to pretend that this player has no negative attributes, has no edge enhancement artifacts at all, and produces a beautiful picture indistinguishable from real High Definition from any DVD. Those claims are patently false, and do no good for anyone.

I agree... this isn't a necessarily a bad player but its misleading consumers and overcharging for a dvd player that's essentially adding artificial sharpening and color saturation boost. More marketing hype than anything. I'd have no problem with this player if Toshiba wasn't having a press conference taunting its HD like performance.

However, some people here are trying to pretend that this player has no negative attributes, has no edge enhancement artifacts at all, and produces a beautiful picture indistinguishable from real High Definition from any DVD. Those claims are patently false, and do no good for anyone.

You got to help me out here Josh and refer me to a post number in this thread where someone has said it (XDE) ".. produces a beautiful picture INDISTINGUISHABLE from real High Definition from ANY DVD." Even the most glowing and biased review I've read yet has still said - BD it isn't! There's a real problem showing its ugly head in this thread.

However, some people here are trying to pretend that this player has no negative attributes, has no edge enhancement artifacts at all, and produces a beautiful picture indistinguishable from real High Definition from any DVD. Those claims are patently false, and do no good for anyone.

Talk about a strawman :rolleyes:

Alright, how about reincarnate's post that claims: "Again and again, the XDE-500 has the best high-end frequency response, contrast and detail I've ever seen. Note that the red-herring of ringing in absent."

The very screenshot he posted to prove his claim has ringing visible in it.

Alright, how about reincarnate's post that claims: "Again and again, the XDE-500 has the best high-end frequency response, contrast and detail I've ever seen. Note that the red-herring of ringing in absent."

The very screenshot he posted to prove his claim has ringing visible in it.
Exactly! I see it in the increased contrast (improved frequency response). Especially in the deeper blacks slits between the brighter whites.

Josh this is a good example of how to earn respect and place a value of the many unbiased professionals in the industry. If your getting paid to review then your reputation must be everything.
I enjoyed reading the completely unbiased views in the Industry Insider thread over in the software media forum. I mean even Roger Dressler of Dolby labs says there is not much of a difference between 448kbs standard definition Dolby and uncompressed 96KHz 24 bit PCM. If we are to believe what Mr. Dressler states as true, then its one more excellent reason to stick with the Toshiba XDE-500 and standard definition discs! :cool:
Thank you for your efforts here to educate us consumers.

Thx guidelines for seating distances for standard and high definition sources. You want to sit a bit further back for standard definition:

http://s3.carltonbale.com/distance_chart_small.png


http://www.thx.com/home/setup/display.html

It's the easiest thing in the world, isn't it, to pi$$ on others. Why don't members here let people decide for themselves, instead of persisting to take the "easy" route? :rolleyes:

Oh, and HAMMERING on it, over and over and over... and over again! Give it up already!
We're doing folks a favor: STAY AWAY!

This is exactly what I see on every disc in this player.
Josh I see your pics,

If you go up too close to any highly compressed source you will see many artifacts. If you sit at the industry recommended distance they largely disappear.
That being said, I see very irritating blocks of image data quite frequently with HD sources especially when their is fast motion or transitions. Noise and image breakup is disgusting.

The MPEG outline here is innocuous and is naturally filtered out from being seen, again by sitting at the recommended seating distance. Don't you agree that we should following Thx and SMPTE recommendations when reviewing?

Thank you for the balanced approach you take. BTW are any classic movies coming out in Blu-ray? I know there has been but a trickle, but I miss do miss the great films from the 50's and 60's like The Ten Commandments or Samson and Delila...

Its the widely distributed Thx frequency response pattern which has been available for years on many top quality SD discs. I used The Incredible's. You may also do a Google search for Thx Optimizer or just go to the nice writeup by Shane:
http://www.hometheatermag.com/advicefromtheexperts/407cali/


http://www.hometheatermag.com/images/bgimages/407cali.6.jpg

thankyou, thats good of you.

Alright, how about reincarnate's post that claims: "Again and again, the XDE-500 has the best high-end frequency response, contrast and detail I've ever seen. Note that the red-herring of ringing in absent."

The very screenshot he posted to prove his claim has ringing visible in it.

The question is how distracting is that going to be from normal viewing distances for normal content. For instances, Grubert's image is not even of a real movie frame! We're talking about optimizing the picture here, so there are going to be trade-offs. When you add edge enhancement, you get ringing. That is just a fact. The smaller the object you apply this enhancement to the more noticeable it will be. Since based on the display you are using, there is a minimum width that the sharpening requires. A good algorithm will avoid applying sharpening for some types of objects. From what I know, Toshiba is essentially using the same enhancement algorithm that Corel uses (which in turn is based on Nivdia's PureVideo algorithm). Some of these algorithms are already available even in open source products like ffdshow. So, what Toshiba is doing is probably tweaking a set of known algorithms.

As for mpeg-2 decoding. This is a commodity product. There isn't much difference between decoders. Now, deinterlacing and scaling are challenging. For scaling the XDE is very similar to PC software such as a All2HD. But given their relatively low end chip, I can see deinterlacing being a problem.

Do I prefer the SD performance of the XDE to my BH 200 (I haven't seen an XA-2 in action). No. But do I prefer it to my Oppo 970? Yes. When I bought it around 3 years ago, the 970 cost me around $200 (if I recall correctly). In all cases, these players make my DVD look pretty good - even on a 60 inch screen from 9 feet away. However, recently I have started using my HTPC for DVD since it allows we to reduce the screen size to around 42 inches to watch DVD, which from 9 ft I find is ideal. So I ended up with a 60 inch screen for Blu Ray or Apple HD, or 42 inches for SD DVD.

Based on my requirements, I would probably not buy the XDE. But I know lots of people for whom it would be an excellent buy.

We're doing folks a favor: STAY AWAY!

Shouldn't you be on Bluray.com? :confused:

However, some people here are trying to pretend that this player has no negative attributes, has no edge enhancement artifacts at all, and produces a beautiful picture indistinguishable from real High Definition from any DVD. Those claims are patently false, and do no good for anyone.

Where are you coming up with this nonsense. I mean seriously. You seem to be intent on fighting windmills.

This is an upconverting DVD player. Nothing more. Why are you constantly trying to compare it to high definition. I have seen very little of this comparision in this thread - if any at all.

There is not one claim that has been made by Toshiba concerning this player that has not been made by another CE concerning their upconverting DVD player.

Everybody seemed to blow a gasket when Toshiba said this player would breathe new life into existing DVD discs. Where's the harm in that.

Here from the Sonystyle site:

Your DVD collection never looked this good. Play the DVDs you love, upscaled to beautiful 1080p resolution with this sleek black 1080p upscaling DVD player.

Breathe new life into your DVD collection with the black DVP-NS700H upscaling DVD player. Enjoy your favorite DVDs, now upscaled to 1080p beauty via the HDMI™ connection. Plus, with BRAVIA® Sync, you can easily power on and synch the inputs of compatible Sony AV devices connected to the players via HDMI for hassle-free enjoyment.

From here: It's a Sony (http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665393601)

Here's this from Panasonic and their upconverter. Right from the Panasonic site:

HD-Quality Images

The DVD-S54 features a 1080p up-conversion function that converts standard definition (720 x 480 pixels) images from DVD sources to high-definition (1920 x 1080 pixels) quality images. And with the addition of HDMI 1.3 with Deep Color to our DVD players, the up-converted signals deliver vivid, sharp and exceptionally detailed images.

Deep Color?

Vivid, sharp and exceptionally detailed images??? Huh? Sound familiar? Kind of like improved sharpness, color and contrast?

From Here: Panasonic "Ideas for Upconverters" (http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/shop/Video/DVD-Recorders-Players/model.DVD-S54K_11002_7000000000000005702)

They all do it. There is nothing Toshiba is claiming that hasn't been said before - many times. This is just another upconverting DVD player. Making the same claims as any other CE does.

Shouldn't you be on Bluray.com? :confused:


No kidding.

Has anybody checked to see if they've started trolling the other threads in this DVD Players (Standard Definition) forum?

They seem to be coming out of the woodwork.

Shouldn't you be on Bluray.com? :confused:
No kidding.

Has anybody checked to see if they've started trolling the other threads in this DVD Players (Standard Definition) forum?

You have the ability to do this yourself, but since you asked, I will oblige you. joltdudeuc has posted many times in the OPPO specific owner threads, specifically as he has noted several times that he is an OPPO Beta tester.

So no, he is not trolling the DVD Forums.

So he is an Oppo beta tester. So he comes here and bashes Toshiba, the Oppo's main competitor, just as expected.
I'm confused as I don't know which one is more amusing: the politics and lobbying here at AVS forum or in the presidential race.

All I know for certainty is if I went over to the Blu-ray forum and stated:
"We're doing folks a favor: SAVE YOUR MONEY AND STAY AWAY!"
that I'd get an instant infraction. But that is the way life is. It's a test which makes you grow in experiencing human nature firsthand.
Thank you everyone for sharing how you really feel! :)

No kidding.

Has anybody checked to see if they've started trolling the other threads in this DVD Players (Standard Definition) forum?

They seem to be coming out of the woodwork.

No, only a relative few keep pounding away. They're usually pretty relentless but when the XDE doesn't go away they will. You'd think they'd make their point and leave but they'll stay as long as someone disagrees with them. Rather pointless, searching endlessly for ways to say, "I don't like it." Take the joltdudeuc comment, "We're doing folks a favor: STAY AWAY!" Silly little boy.

I started to run some comparisons (with my Pentax DSLR and a tripod) between the XDE and a friends Oppo but concluded there really is no point, given the vehemence of these few. The bottom-line is I like the images from the XDE and no, Goatse, I don't crank up the contrast, etc., etc., on my Sony. If anything I'm a color minimalist and excess edge enhancement annoys me too. I just don't see it like a few of you do. Heck, I see more edge halo/edge artifacts on far too many disks.

As for Blu Ray or HD DVD, I have both, a Panasonice BD30 and a Toshiba A35, so I can and do appreciate HD. Given a really good quality SD (Apocalypto as an example) the XDE can get very close to HD and do it better than competively-priced players and better than several costing far more. I also said in an earlier post I was leaning toward the Oppo 983 but, frankly, I think I'll stay with the XDE for now (although I might order one, just to compare to the XDE.)

arkiedan

So he is an Oppo beta tester. So he comes here and bashes Toshiba, the Oppo's main competitor, just as expected.
I'm confused as I don't know which one is more amusing: the politics and lobbying here at AVS forum or in the presidential race.

All I know for certainty is if I went over to the Blu-ray forum and stated:
"We're doing folks a favor: SAVE YOUR MONEY AND STAY AWAY!"
that I'd get an instant infraction. But that is the way life is. It's a test which makes you grow in experiencing human nature firsthand.
Thank you everyone for sharing how you really feel! :)
Here is the problem, reincarnate, joltdudeuc has never posted in the BD Forums. I have seen a post in the Toshiba HD-A2 forums (since it was requested that we check his post history), but never in the BD Forums.

Beyond this, his statements are not "stay away from the DVD standard". His statements are particular to staying away from the "Toshiba XD-E5000". He does not like the XDE. He is warning people to stay away from the XDE. That is his prerogative.

Being an OPPO beta tester, or even an owner of another competitive product, does not preclude you determining if a product meets your expectations. joltdudeuc, must like the OP of this thread, are owners of the Toshiba XD-E5000. Through their experience with the player, they determined that the product was not right for them. It is well within their rights to post dissenting comments, even if they return the player, as they have had direct experience with the player.

Not agreeing with their statements is fine, but trolling their comments is a completely different, vindictive matter. If you do not like what they say, just let their comments disappear into another page. Out of sight, out of mind.

If you go up too close to any highly compressed source you will see many artifacts.

Listen, let's all take a step back here for a second. There's no need for any of us to fight over this.

We will both concede that highly compressed sources such as DVD will have artifacts. Applying additional processing such as edge enhancement will add additional artifacts. The questions are:

1) How severe are the artifacts?
2) Are they distracting during normal movie playback?
3) How does this player fare compared to other upconverting DVD players?

My answers are that this player adds quite a bit of edge ringing that I do indeed find very distracting during regular playback at my normal seating distance. In comparison to other upconverting DVD players, the ringing is more severe and is not adjustable. The XD-E500's only real advantage is its price.

BTW are any classic movies coming out in Blu-ray? I know there has been but a trickle, but I miss do miss the great films from the 50's and 60's like The Ten Commandments or Samson and Delila...

The lack of classic films is a real problem with Blu-ray. I wrote an article on that subject for Home Theater last month. That's one of the main reasons I'd like to find a way to get better performance out of my DVD collection. Unfortunately, I just don't find the XD-E500 to live up to the hype surrounding it.

Here is the problem, reincarnate, joltdudeuc has never posted in the BD Forums. I have seen a post in the Toshiba HD-A2 forums (since it was requested that we check his post history), but never in the BD Forums.

Beyond this, his statements are not "stay away from the DVD standard". His statements are particular to staying away from the "Toshiba XD-E5000". He does not like the XDE. He is warning people to stay away from the XDE. That is his purgative.

Being an OPPO beta tester, or even an owner of another competitive product, does not preclude you determining if a product meets your expectations. joltdudeuc, must like the OP of this thread, are owners of the Toshiba XD-E5000. Through their experience with the player, they determined that the product was not right for them. It is well within their rights to post dissenting comments, even if they return the player, as they have had direct experience with the player.

Not agreeing with their statements is fine, but trolling their comments is a completely different, vindictive matter. If you do not like what they say, just let their comments disappear into another page. Out of sight, out of mind.

Well I'm not trying to be pajoritive here but did you not just fall victim to what you just advised against? Specifically this closing comment:

Not agreeing with their statements is fine, but trolling their comments is a completely different, vindictive matter. If you do not like what they say, just let their comments disappear into another page. Out of sight, out of mind.

You obviously did not agree with a statement. And chose to comment on it. What about the "If you do not like what they say, just let their comments disappear into another page. Out of sight, out of mind"

Regardless. Not important.

Just pointing out something that confused me. Like perhaps there may be different standards for various posters that I may not be aware of.

I started to run some comparisons (with my Pentax DSLR and a tripod) between the XDE and a friends Oppo but concluded there really is no point, given the vehemence of these few. The bottom-line is I like the images from the XDE and no, Goatse, I don't crank up the contrast, etc., etc., on my Sony.
arkiedan
I agree. Too much sharping is just as bad as not enough.

Virtually every Sony LCD flat panel I've seen has too much sharpening and false outlining. Its not a simple matter of turning down the sharpness either. Contrast this to the old SXRD (remember that?) RP's were the exact opposite in being too soft.
This is one large reason why Samsung has surpassed Sony in both flat panel market share and picture quality. Their 650 model offers remarkable PQ for the price too, as both Consumer Reports and AVS members agree with this assessment.

Here from the current Ultimate AV Sony review:
"The 52W4100 model has a much lower effective black level and displays much sharper detail on DVDs.
The other obvious comparison is with the Samsung LN52A750, which lists for $200 more than the 52W4100. The Samsung achieves a slightly lower black level, and it has slightly better 120Hz frame interpolation—that is, it exhibits fewer artifacts in problematic material. ... The video quality is better, too."

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/808sonykdl52/index5.html

After all do we want the best playback system for the Toshiba XDE-500 player and extensive SD collections? :)

I think we are at the point in High Definition maturity cycle where we need to start stressing the importance of careful system matching. Its a well known concept in high-end audio.

So here goes: If you are satisfied with the clarity, sharpness and detail of SD discs with your current player, then there is no benefit to upgrading.

If you are not satisfied with the clarity, sharpness and detail of SD discs with your current player, then give the Toshiba XDE-500 player a chance.

If you don't know if you are satisfied with the clarity, sharpness and detail of SD discs with your current player, then give the Toshiba XDE-500 player a chance.

Again BB and CC currently sell this player with no restocking fee. Only you and your family can ultimately decide.

Tip: set your display to 1:1 pixel mapping at 1920*1080 for best performance :)

I agree. Too much sharping is just as bad as not enough.

Virtually every Sony LCD flat panel I've seen has too much sharpening and false outlining. Its not a simple matter of turning down the sharpness either. Contrast this to the old SXRD (remember that?) RP's were the exact opposite in being too soft.
This is one large reason why Samsung has surpassed Sony in both flat panel market share and picture quality. Their 650 model offers remarkable PQ for the price too, as both Consumer Reports and AVS members agree with this assessment.

Here from the current Ultimate AV Sony review:
"The 52W4100 model has a much lower effective black level and displays much sharper detail on DVDs.
The other obvious comparison is with the Samsung LN52A750, which lists for $200 more than the 52W4100. The Samsung achieves a slightly lower black level, and it has slightly better 120Hz frame interpolation—that is, it exhibits fewer artifacts in problematic material. ... The video quality is better, too."

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/808sonykdl52/index5.html

After all do we want the best playback system for the Toshiba XDE-500 player and extensive SD collections? :)

Oops! I should have said my Sony is one of the last of their RPs, the 60A3000, a set that is much heralded for it's excellent colors and uniformly bright screen, even out of the box. Soft? Uh uh. Razor sharp, as long as it's being fed a good 1080 signal (lousy with a 480 source.) After a year of ownership it still impresses me.

Most images from the XDE through this set are excellent (not meant to offend those who disagree!) I just watched Eastwood's Letters from Iwo Jima today, a film with very good iq. Frankly, it was close enough to HD for me.

arkiedan

Well I'm not trying to be pajoritive here but did you not just fall victim to what you just advised against? Specifically this closing comment:
The key word in my argument is "trolling". If you do not have something intelligent or important to the conversation, or attack someone directly with false information, presumed assumptions or sarcasm, then you are simply trolling. It is at this point that we should take a conscientious decision just to ignore the offending comment and just move on.

In regard to my post, I am not falling victim to my own statements. This is partly because I am playing the Devil's Advocate (to defend someone who is not here), partly because the purpose of my post was to be informational, and partly due to my desire to prevent people from pandering to wholesale defamation of character.

Just pointing out something that confused me. Like perhaps there may be different standards for various posters that I may not be aware of.

This is precisely why this is an open forum. It is a place of discourse. The more voices you hear, the higher the probability that you will be able to make a decisive decision that aligns with your own personal tastes.

Shouldn't you be on Bluray.com? :confused:

Good grief :rolleyes:

That is his purgative.


Some Freudian slip this!:D (Unless, of course, you meant to imply something other than prerogative);)

I blame automatic spell checkers and my inability to proof read before posting. Edited.

Sorry but if someone is a beta tester for a competing product/company I fail to see how this is not relevant to whether you believe their put down of a competing product/company.

I am not saying this person's assessment is wrong about this player, but come on. Would people just accept a beta tester for Toshiba SD DVD players, giving a bad review of Sony's SD DVD players and not have doubt about whether this was an unbiased review?

Sorry but if someone is a beta tester for a competing product/company I fail to see how this is not relevant to whether you believe their put down of a competing product/company.

You are presuming a conflict of interest arises from Beta participation. The Beta program does not require that you use the player beyond the actual hardware testing phase. Software updates are provided before public release, but again, it is not required that Beta tester actually test these software updates.

You are presuming bias because he is a Beta tester. You have no actual proof of this bias. They are not paid for services, are not required to post on the forums, and are not prohibited from using other brand products. The soul purposes of performing an external Beta Test is to get as many hands on the player as possible. The more combinations of use, the more likely it is you will find errors which can be ironed out before a product is released. It is not a means of procuring an army of "followers" who will blindly defend your product.

Could his comments have been more detailed and less heated? Yes. Do his comments bespeak of bias? I do not think so. I think a lot of people are chasing Windmills, trying to find faults where they are not. A lot of these post sickeningly cry wolf.

Would people just accept a beta tester for Toshiba SD DVD players, giving a bad review of Sony's SD DVD players and not have doubt about whether this was an unbiased review?

We accept Kris Deering, and it is well known that he works closely with companies such as Marantz and OPPO to ensure that the quality of their product is the highest it can be. If you preclude statements from people who have had early hands on with a product, or are current owners of competing products, you are purposefully blinding yourself.

Shouldn't you be on Bluray.com? :confused:
why? That technology hasn't matured yet at all. not yet DL, and many movie companies are doing what they did with DVDs are still making bad transfers with lots of noise/grain. Ever watch Stargate on DVD? Watch is bluray, it's not much better. Was great in the theaters, then again, most films are.

Bluray is an infant. This player is +10 saturation and +5 sharpness, ie: nothing special. I'm sending mine back friday, then I'll leave you guys in your bliss... :)

I would like to start hearing some constructive opinions about the XD-E500 instead of all this bickering. I was going to give my opinions this past weekend but ran out of time. Maybe next weekend. Is it alright to compare the XD-E500 with blu-ray? I only have one movie in both SD and HD formats.

So he is an Oppo beta tester. So he comes here and bashes Toshiba, the Oppo's main competitor, just as expected.
I'm confused as I don't know which one is more amusing: the politics and lobbying here at AVS forum or in the presidential race.

All I know for certainty is if I went over to the Blu-ray forum and stated:
"We're doing folks a favor: SAVE YOUR MONEY AND STAY AWAY!"
that I'd get an instant infraction. But that is the way life is. It's a test which makes you grow in experiencing human nature firsthand.
Thank you everyone for sharing how you really feel! :)
So what if I help out Oppo with their testing?!

Toshiba isn't their main competitor, EVERYONE is. They are a pretty small player in the DVD player market.

I love my PS3's up conversion... oh no, I must be "jumping ship" :rolleyes:

Also, I do, for now, own this player. This isn't the "I love my XDE thread" :rolleyes:

im a newbie here but i gotta ask.... . how in the heck can you have any idea what will be displayed on a 50 inch HDTV going by a 10 inch diag pic in a forum (taken with god knows what camera/web cam) on the internet ?????
even if those pics were taken with a 10 megapixle camera it has been very heavly compressed to be displayed in the forum thread here . so are the defects/short commings the result of the player......or.......a crap load of compression to show it on line ?

not trying to argue , just asking .

im a newbie here but i gotta ask.... . how in the heck can you have any idea what will be displayed on a 50 inch HDTV going by a 10 inch diag pic in a forum (taken with god knows what camera/web cam) on the internet ?????
even if those pics were taken with a 10 megapixle camera it has been very heavly compressed to be displayed in the forum thread here . so are the defects/short commings the result of the player......or.......a crap load of compression to show it on line ?

not trying to argue , just asking .

I was going to compare with pictures because we do the best we can with what we have.

This is exactly what I see on every disc in this player.

Perhaps some displays need to have their sharpness level turned down or set to zero to allow the XE500 to do it's thing without the display mucking it up? Anyway, screen shot comparisons like this can be manipulated to show whatever you want them to, but whereas the OP does not appear to have an agenda, you clearly do.

Perhaps some displays need to have their sharpness level turned down or set to zero to allow the XE500 to do it's thing without the display mucking it up?

Do you really think I'm the sort of person who'd be too dumb to know how to use the sharpness control in my projector? :rolleyes:

It's set at 0, by the way.

Anyway, screen shot comparisons like this can be manipulated to show whatever you want them to, but whereas the OP does not appear to have an agenda, you clearly do.

My only agenda is to fairly evaluate both the strengths and weaknesses of this player.

posts removed: you may be asked to leave the thread if there is more

all I know that ps3 to my eyes sucks at upconversion, picture looks very soft and yes I did try all kinds of picture tweaks. My Sony changer does a significat better job than my ps3, the picture looks sharper but I still can't stand the the picture quality of my sd collection on my 52" lcd tv compared to that of my mom's 50" 720 Panny plasma which looks stunning. Now I wonder if this new Toshiba will bring new life to my extensive sd collection.

im a newbie here but i gotta ask.... . how in the heck can you have any idea what will be displayed on a 50 inch HDTV going by a 10 inch diag pic in a forum (taken with god knows what camera/web cam) on the internet ?????
even if those pics were taken with a 10 megapixle camera it has been very heavly compressed to be displayed in the forum thread here . so are the defects/short commings the result of the player......or.......a crap load of compression to show it on line ?

not trying to argue , just asking .
Good questions. I’m heavily into 12M pixel cameras (Nikon D300) and know how difficult it is to maintain top quality. But there are exceptions.

The frequency response photos I earlier submitted were NOT ever compressed. They were screen captures with only the small pertinent area being displayed/captured with zoom set to 1:1 mapping. I did reduce the color to only two to be able to fit it under the AVS limit of 500KB.

Lastly the pictures were captured in 14 bit lossless RAW format. So what were submitted were perfect (assuming AVS uploads are not compressed).

You should see my full 12M pixel pictures processed with the same Bibble Professional software. It took me a few months to get all the settings correct without losing quality or oversharping. Just one box or setting being off would ruined the picture quality. I use two new Samsung HD240T 1920*1200 monitors (3840*1200 total rez) to span across my desktop.

all I know that ps3 to my eyes sucks at upconversion, picture looks very soft and yes I did try all kinds of picture tweaks. My Sony changer does a significat better job than my ps3, the picture looks sharper but I still can't stand the the picture quality of my sd collection on my 52" lcd tv compared to that of my mom's 50" 720 Panny plasma which looks stunning. Now I wonder if this new Toshiba will bring new life to my extensive sd collection.

While this is not a screenshot of XDE in action. It is of ALL2HD, a selective sharpening algorithm that is almost identical to XDE in the end result. I don't believe you can get this type of sharpening with a TV sharpness adjustment or contrast adjust.

http://www.digital-digest.com/windvd9_all2hd.html

You'll have to keep your mouse on the image to launch the ALL2HD image and then you can A-B them to see what happens. This particular implementation is in WinDVD9 (which I use). If you keep the mouse on the image you will see the ALL2HD effect (sharpening) and if you take your mouse off you will see the regular image.

Some may like the before and some may prefer the after. But that is what selective image enhancement does. Sharpening is applied differently to different objects in the frame.

That is an interesting comparison.

A couple of notes though:

1)I can't call that selective sharpening, as after scanning the entire picture, the entire picture is equally "enhanced" with the ALL2HD effect. Its not like it only effects part of the picture, like it supposedly does.

2)Although obviously looking more sharp, if you look closely you can see halos on just that one screen shot, and the halos are obstructing detail, so in fact again, you are losing detail.

3)The effect does "appear" to be enhanced thats for sure, and it is a good example of what EE can do, and no doubt A LOT of folks will love the outcome, if thats what the XDE-500 does.

The ALL2HD doesn't look "natural" to me.

larry

The ALL2HD doesn't look "natural" to me.

larry

That is exactly the point. Some will like it, others will not. Any sort of post processing will have it's fans and it's detractors. We should recognize that people have different preferences in what they like. Some may contend that shaving is not 'natural' as well :)

That is an interesting comparison.

A couple of notes though:

1)I can't call that selective sharpening, as after scanning the entire picture, the entire picture is equally "enhanced" with the ALL2HD effect. Its not like it only effects part of the picture, like it supposedly does.

2)Although obviously looking more sharp, if you look closely you can see halos on just that one screen shot, and the halos are obstructing detail, so in fact again, you are losing detail.

3)The effect does "appear" to be enhanced thats for sure, and it is a good example of what EE can do, and no doubt A LOT of folks will love the outcome, if thats what the XDE-500 does.
I agree. The car and window frames are some of the easiest to see this in.

It's definitely an overall improvement in sharpness, but now lacks an "authenticity" to it. It reminds me of extra sharpened DIVX for some reason. Definitely an increase in noise where there was a lack of noise previous, but sharpening usually does this anyways, so I guess that should be a given.

That is an interesting comparison.

A couple of notes though:

1)I can't call that selective sharpening, as after scanning the entire picture, the entire picture is equally "enhanced" with the ALL2HD effect. Its not like it only effects part of the picture, like it supposedly does.

2)Although obviously looking more sharp, if you look closely you can see halos on just that one screen shot, and the halos are obstructing detail, so in fact again, you are losing detail.

3)The effect does "appear" to be enhanced thats for sure, and it is a good example of what EE can do, and no doubt A LOT of folks will love the outcome, if thats what the XDE-500 does.

This is a work in progress. I trick is to add edge enhancement only in certain areas and to sharpen the image selectively to get a more HD look. Will it ever look like full HD. No. Will it result in loss of some detail. Absolutely. That is just how it works. But we'll see these types of algorithms get better as there is going to be more more low res content (i.e. YouTube etc) that people want to look at on their large screen TVs.

While this is not a screenshot of XDE in action. It is of ALL2HD, a selective sharpening algorithm that is almost identical to XDE in the end result.
Were is the proof/documentation/evidence is there that Toshiba has uses or licensees this technology?
From the NXP ALL2HD press releases, Google searches indicate their market is for cell phones or teeny-weeny displays.

Its ridiculous to assume Toshiba uses this crude form of sharpening. Further I never purchase Corel products either because there's always better.

So what is the real motive here? An attempt of guilt by association?
Gotta love this Science forum.

BTW, does anyone know when the other market leaders will be introducing 24p film standard-definition playback? The rumor mill says they're lining up to license it from Toshiba. Toshiba was granted a patent the same day Microsoft received theirs for the Up/Down keys on our computers.

While this is not a screenshot of XDE in action. It is of ALL2HD, a selective sharpening algorithm that is almost identical to XDE in the end result. I don't believe you can get this type of sharpening with a TV sharpness adjustment or contrast adjust.

http://www.digital-digest.com/windvd9_all2hd.html

You'll have to keep your mouse on the image to launch the ALL2HD image and then you can A-B them to see what happens. This particular implementation is in WinDVD9 (which I use). If you keep the mouse on the image you will see the ALL2HD effect (sharpening) and if you take your mouse off you will see the regular image.

Some may like the before and some may prefer the after. But that is what selective image enhancement does. Sharpening is applied differently to different objects in the frame.

Thanks for the example. If the XDE can do this then I'm in. Some may not like it, but for me it's a huge improvement! To each his or her own.

Were is the proof/documentation/evidence is there that Toshiba has uses or licensees this technology?
From the NXP ALL2HD press releases, Google searches indicate their market is for cell phones or teeny-weeny displays.

Its ridiculous to assume Toshiba uses this crude form of sharpening. Further I never purchase Corel products either because there's always better.

So what is the real motive here? An attempt of guilt by association?
Gotta love this Science forum.

BTW, does anyone know when the other market leaders will be introducing 24p film standard-definition playback? The rumor mill says they're lining up to license it from Toshiba. Toshiba was granted a patent the same day Microsoft received theirs for the Up/Down keys on our computers.

The screenshot I provided is from ALL2HD in WinDVD9, which most certainly isn't designed for tiny weeny screens, nor is it crude! WinDVD was purchased by Corel and has been licensed by Sony, even in their 3K HTPC line. Besides that, it has superior implementation for DVD playback (in my opinion) than what is currently on the XDE!

Just some quick comments.

I purchased the XD-E500 and will keep it. I was looking for an NTSC/PAL player with HDMI. There are some artifacts with some PAL discs but they are probably not as bad as my other players which are a cheap Cyberhome and a modified JVC. "True Lies" looks quite good from Germany. HDMI alone gives most or all DVD's a little more sharpness anyway over a component connection and I was looking for that additional sharpness. I have a HD-A2 and a BD10A but only use them for HD discs.

I do notice an increase in sharpness on my Philips 37PF9631D which is 1366x768 and not a 1080p system with a 1080i input. However, I actually get a more dramatic effect from turning on Pixel Plus 2 HD on my Philips LCD. It seems the XD-E500 just adds to the sharpness though on some discs I turn down the TV's sharpness setting from halfway to zero because of too much edge enhancement. I can't say they interfere so I'll probably use both. The algorithms are probably different and I also turn down the sharpness on some HD discs too so it probably isn't unique to the XD-E500.

Personally, I won't buy anything but Philips because of Pixel Plus or its later version Perfect Pixel Engine or whatever they call it now. It's been criticized for making film look like video but it really makes DVD's look great in my opinion. It also works on HD sources. I don't know what it does to the images used for calibration but the entire image looks much sharper and much more three dimensional to me. Maybe I could see a bigger difference on a 1080p24 system?

And by the way ALL2HD used in WINDVD9 is probably a derivative of Pixel Plus
and I believe NXP was or is owned by Philips too.

JGD

I did a very interesting comparison earlier this evening. I have a 1080i DVHS recording of The Right Stuff (from HDNET Movies) and I have the special Edition DVD. Decided to cue them up together ( DVD in the E500). I could in real time switch back and forth instantly.

I have never experienced this...but the E500 playback provided better PQ than the DVHS copy. The HDNET transfer is awful. Still...HD is so superior to SD that I was quite shocked by the outcome.

I continue to be amazed at the PQ from the E500. I have 20/20 vision...and at 7-8 feet from a 50" plasma...I cannot see the alleged EE ringing. I honestly just can't see it. The PQ from this machine is phenominal for what it is...an SD machine.

The screenshot I provided is from ALL2HD in WinDVD9, which most certainly isn't designed for tiny weeny screens, nor is it crude!

I think what we have here is just a profound difference in what each of us defines as "good picture quality". If you can look at the 'after' image of your ALL2HD comparison and say that the results are not crude, then we are at a total impasse.

http://www.digital-digest.com/windvd9_all2hd.html

To be sure, the 'before' image in that example is excessively soft. However, the 'after' image is extremely edgy and "electronic" looking, with all film-like qualities sapped completely away.

I've got to be honest, I find it rather shocking that there are still people posting on AVSForum of all places who would argue that they want more edge enhancement in their picture quality this late in the DVD life cycle. Many of us have been fighting for years to eliminate those sort of artifacts.

I think what we have here is just a profound difference in what each of us defines as "good picture quality". If you can look at the 'after' image of your ALL2HD comparison and say that the results are not crude, then we are at a total impasse.

http://www.digital-digest.com/windvd9_all2hd.html

To be sure, the 'before' image in that example is excessively soft. However, the 'after' image is extremely edgy and "electronic" looking, with all film-like qualities sapped completely away.

I've got to be honest, I find it rather shocking that there are still people posting on AVSForum of all places who would argue that they want more edge enhancement in their picture quality this late in the DVD life cycle. Many of us have been fighting for years to eliminate those sort of artifacts.

Let me tell you why you should not be shocked.

First, the name of this forum is Audio-Visual-Science Forum.

Second, Audio and Visual are essentially sensory experiences.

Being that Audio and Visual are sensory experiences that each one of us enjoy differently, it makes sense that we should be able to customize it to our liking.

I am not saying that the movie should have any processing applied to it. Here we are talking about post processing. Something that you can use if you like or turn off if you don't. Post processing is a completely legitimate feature to have. That is what Toshiba is offering here.

Now, to make blanket statements that only 'your' way is the right way is not only being elitist, but also shows a complete lack of respect for others preferences that don't match yours.

I agree, don't mess with the original film, but let people apply post processing as they see fit. What you find crude, I find enhanced. What you find true and 'film like' I often find less enjoyable. So in my house who wins? You admonition here or my preference? :D

You may not like the application of the science. But that science is being applied is undeniable and is very much legitimate in this forum - AV-Science forum.

The minority of the "viewing" public (and AVS members) strive to produce on their display exactly what was encoded on the disc. Being part of the majority or minority is fine. However, when talking about "performance" the criteria needs to be understood for a meaningful discussion. The latter is what usually doesn't happen. That's why bickering can occur. :) Everybody has a different idea of what "looks good". Test patterns and torture clips don't lie, not to mention a properly calibrated display that performs well.

larry

The minority of the "viewing" public (and AVS members) strive to produce on their display exactly what was encoded on the disc. Being part of the majority or minority is fine. However, when talking about "performance" the criteria needs to be understood for a meaningful discussion. The latter is what usually doesn't happen. That's why bickering can occur. :) Everybody has a different idea of what "looks good". Test patterns and torture clips don't lie, not to mention a properly calibrated display that performs well.

larry

I have no problems in accepting your argument. A good player should be able to reproduce a disk as it was encoded. By all accounts the Toshiba player with post processing turned off does just that.

Now, it ALSO has the ability to turn on post processing features for those who want it. Not for 'everyone' only those who want it.

To say, that Toshiba should 'not have' provided this option, is being an elitist in the worst possible way. They are not forcing you to use that feature.

Also, if someone says, I like what the effect is doing for me, we have to agree that it is their personal choice. It is not like they are refuting the law of gravity or claiming the earth is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth.

In a nutshell, I will take post processing in a player than DNR applied to the movie itself. If I want to turn on post processing then I want others to respect that choice. Simple as that. Is that too much to ask?

I think what we have here is just a profound difference in what each of us defines as "good picture quality". If you can look at the 'after' image of your ALL2HD comparison and say that the results are not crude, then we are at a total impasse.

http://www.digital-digest.com/windvd9_all2hd.html

To be sure, the 'before' image in that example is excessively soft. However, the 'after' image is extremely edgy and "electronic" looking, with all film-like qualities sapped completely away.

I've got to be honest, I find it rather shocking that there are still people posting on AVSForum of all places who would argue that they want more edge enhancement in their picture quality this late in the DVD life cycle. Many of us have been fighting for years to eliminate those sort of artifacts.

So it must look blurry to be "film like"?

I found it to look much better myself so if you think this example is bad, then the weight I put on your "review" of the XDE player just dropped quite a bit to next to zero weight. I now see that you would rather have a blurry "film like" picture than a sharp picture which would be an improvement given the source. Being allowed to provide this if someone wants is fine, and for those like yourself that want their SD DVDs to look blurry and "film like" that is fine too.

Thank you for giving me YOUR definition with an actual example of WHY/WHAT you didn't like the XDE, as I now see we look at things VERY differently and if I was in the market for another upscaler, I would likely try this now, where I would not have before. :D

While I may not personally purchase this product. I still feel that there is a need for a player that can upconvert dvd's and do it well. It sounds like the XD-E500 does a good job at upconverting and edge enhancement. So as far as a SD player goes the Toshiba could very well offer everything many people could want in a SD-DVD player. The only thing I have to wonder about is, would Toshiba have released this player if HD-DVD won the format war?

While I may not personally purchase this product. I still feel that there is a need for a player that can upconvert dvd's and do it well. It sounds like the XD-E500 does a good job at upconverting and edge enhancement. So as far as a SD player goes the Toshiba could very well offer everything many people could want in a SD-DVD player. The only thing I have to wonder about is, would Toshiba have released this player if HD-DVD won the format war?

Quite possibly they would not have released it, but what difference does that make when you yourself said many would probably like what t his player does?

That kind of questioning is part of the problem with the wide ranging reviews we have been seeing I think. It seems to drawn along the old format war battle lines which to me is crazy, and was crazy even BEFORE the war was over . If people continue to do this, then what good is ANY review buy someone unless we KNOW where they stood in the war? This is not directed at you BTW, just a general statement about people on these forums. ;)

I think everyone needs to forget the format war and just look at products with blinders on to where we stood in the war. If we don't, these kinds of forums will become useless to get any real info on products IMO. These forums serve too great a function for consumers for any of us to let that happen. Again, IMHO.

Here is another review:

http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/reviews/i...id=103690&pn=1

A couple of quotes from the above:

"In some cases, the Toshiba XD-E500 clearly performed better on the test DVDs than the PlayStation 3. It often provided a greater range of detail in dark scenes, and the sharpness setting made images slightly more crisp. But in other scenes, the difference in image quality was negligible."

"Also, the Toshiba XD-E500 puts out a great DVD image, even with all the special settings turned off; although, overall we preferred to leave the sharp control on."

"However, at no time were we convinced we were watching anything but standard DVD, even in the case of 'The Dark'. The Toshiba XD-E500 delivers an extremely solid upconverted DVD image, but nothing that rivals the richness of Blu-ray."


Cross posted from AVforums.com

Quite possibly they would not have released it, but what difference does that make when you yourself said many would probably like what t his player does?

That kind of questioning is part of the problem with the wide ranging reviews we have been seeing I think. It seems to drawn along the old format war battle lines which to me is crazy, and was crazy even BEFORE the war was over . If people continue to do this, then what good is ANY review buy someone unless we KNOW where they stood in the war? This is not directed at you BTW, just a general statement about people on these forums. ;)

I think everyone needs to forget the format war and just look at products with blinders on to where we stood in the war. If we don't, these kinds of forums will become useless to get any real info on products IMO. These forums serve too great a function for consumers for any of us to let that happen. Again, IMHO.

Excellent post! It seems Toshiba was putting out good upconverting players even with HD DVD. I recall their ads referring to DVD upconversion even with their HD DVD players. If I recollect correctly.

So it must look blurry to be "film like"?

Except he never said that. IMO, he just insuated that he preferred the image to not have post processing that added edge enhancement to the displayed image. He referenced that the example provided was "Soft", that is all.

I view the XDE post processing as similar to adding post processing (e.g., THX) to audio. Depending on the image you are start with, to some it may improve and to others it may not. Some may use it all the time while others will find its usage sparingly or not at all.

Personally, the XDE has flaws in other areas that would prevent me from trying it out, but my guess is that I would probably prefer no edge enhancement at all. I will tinker with my setup to get it the way I like it but I don't want to tinker with things on a disk to disk basis.

In a nutshell, I will take post processing in a player than DNR applied to the movie itself. If I want to turn on post processing then I want others to respect that choice. Simple as that. Is that too much to ask?

which is fine, but DNR (and EE on many titles)has already been applied to most dvds, so it is rather a mute point.

Except he never said that. IMO, he just insuated that he preferred the image to not have post processing that added edge enhancement to the displayed image. He referenced that the example provided was "Soft", that is all.

I view the XDE post processing as similar to adding post processing (e.g., THX) to audio. Depending on the image you are start with, to some it may improve and to others it may not. Some may use it all the time while others will find its usage sparingly or not at all.

Personally, the XDE has flaws in other areas that would prevent me from trying it out, but my guess is that I would probably prefer no edge enhancement at all. I will tinker with my setup to get it the way I like it but I don't want to tinker with things on a disk to disk basis.

But in that link he showed as an example of what the XDE player does, the before pic sure looked blurry in comparison. Soft and blurry are just measured in degrees really.

Is everyone that doesn't like post processing, just sending a 480p signal to their displays if they want it as it is on the disc? Upscaling alone IS post processing by itself, and even using a REON/REALTA chip is doing post processing also. So when people say they want it to look like the source material, they should only send 480p then right? Because THAT is what it is (less the p though). The point is to be critical, if people want it to be as it is in the source they shouldn't be even upscaling it and not using a HDTV displays to view it either, never mind using a high end video processing chip at all right?

I am happy he qualified what he views as over processing and thanked him since now I know what he thinks is over processing and how that compares to what I think is over processing. I didn't know we were that far apart. That link cleared that up for me. ;)

But in that link he showed as an example of what the XDE player does, the before pic sure looked blurry in comparison. Soft and blurry are just measured in degrees really.

Is everyone that doesn't like post processing, just sending a 480p signal to their displays if they want it as it is on the disc? Upscaling alone IS post processing by itself, and even using a REON/REALTA chip is doing post processing also. So when people say they want it to look like the source material, they should only send 480p then right? Because THAT is what it is (less the p though). The point is to be critical, if people want it to be as it is in the source they shouldn't be even upscaling it and not using a HDTV displays to view it either, never mind using a high end video processing chip at all right?

I am happy he qualified what he views as over processing and thanked him since now I know what he thinks is over processing and how that compares to what I think is over processing. I didn't know we were that far apart. That link cleared that up for me. ;)

I believe the link was originally provided by av.pallino as an example of what ALL2HD can do to an image, Josh was just re-referencing it in his reply. Also, it has not been verified how the XDE does it's post processing. From what I gathered in the posts that link is not a capture of an XDE image but just an example of what av.pallino believed they could be doing.

I think most are specifically referencing edge enhancement as the feature they do not like in post processing not deinterasing or upscaling. The fact is, excessive edge enhancement imprinted on images has been an issue on large displays for sometime, so regardless of how intelligently implemented it has a negative context for many.

I can see where an intelligent implementation could be useful if it could be dialed in by the user for a specific disk. Just "On" and "Off" is not enough control for the variety of quality of the disk available. This could be just a first take on something that may get additional improvements down the road.

Is everyone that doesn't like post processing, just sending a 480p signal to their displays if they want it as it is on the disc? Upscaling alone IS post processing by itself, and even using a REON/REALTA chip is doing post processing also. So when people say they want it to look like the source material, they should only send 480p then right? Because THAT is what it is (less the p though). The point is to be critical, if people want it to be as it is in the source they shouldn't be even upscaling it and not using a HDTV displays to view it either, never mind using a high end video processing chip at all right?

This is an excellent point. Do the people calling for a picture that's closest to the source as possible up-convert their DVD's? If so, you're breaking your own rule.

I find it hard to believe people are arguing against picture enhancements in an up converting DVD player thread. If you're against that, then why in the world would you be in this thread? Or do we now need to qualify it (enhancements) with levels? If so, we're right smack dab in the middle of the subjective opinion that others have talked about. You're subjective opinion is no more or less valid than someone else's. It's impossible to be right or wrong. We've already strayed from the original source, so purist need not apply.

John

I believe the link was originally provided by av.pallino as an example of what ALL2HD can do to an image, Josh was just re-referencing it in his reply. Also, it has not been verified how the XDE does it's post processing. From what I gathered in the posts that link is not a capture of an XDE image but just an example of what av.pallino believed they could be doing.

I think most are specifically referencing edge enhancement as the feature they do not like in post processing not deinterasing or upscaling. The fact is, excessive edge enhancement imprinted on images has been an issue on large displays for sometime, so regardless of how intelligently implemented it has a negative context for many.

I can see where an intelligent implementation could be useful if it could be dialed in by the user for a specific disk. Just "On" and "Off" is not enough control for the variety of quality of the disk available. This could be just a first take on something that may get additional improvements down the road.

Here is what Josh said:

I think what we have here is just a profound difference in what each of us defines as "good picture quality". If you can look at the 'after' image of your ALL2HD comparison and say that the results are not crude, then we are at a total impasse.

http://www.digital-digest.com/windvd9_all2hd.html

To be sure, the 'before' image in that example is excessively soft. However, the 'after' image is extremely edgy and "electronic" looking, with all film-like qualities sapped completely away.

I've got to be honest, I find it rather shocking that there are still people posting on AVSForum of all places who would argue that they want more edge enhancement in their picture quality this late in the DVD life cycle. Many of us have been fighting for years to eliminate those sort of artifacts.

I understand that this is NOT what the XDE does, but his statements make it clear he "HATES" that "enhanced" picture in the comparison link he posted. It doesn't matter if he originally posted it, but that he used it for his comparison of good and bad.

I personally think the after processing looked much better, but maybe on a 130" screen he would be right about it not looking good, but what percentage of people are using FP in the world in their homes?

Lets face it, he blasted this player in his review of it, and I was previously relying on HIS "review" of it based on his rep and when he posted that post I originally replied to (and re-quoted again here), it changed my perception of how little I could rely on his review afterwards. WHY? Because I think that after pic looked much much better with MY eyes.

If he wants a "film-like" look that is soft (as SD DVD IS), and as HE said he prefers, then that is HIS choice, and he is entitled to have it, but in this case, I completely disagree with him. It just tells me I cannot rely on his reviews going forward and will not read then for at least the PQ part as we see things differently. If he thinks I am blind then so be it, but I know what I like and he doesn't. Apparently he doesn't know what most people probably like and wants to change it by blasting products that provide the kind of look they might like so he gets want he likes from the studios.

Quite possibly they would not have released it, but what difference does that make when you yourself said many would probably like what t his player does?


You are correct I am not denying that Toshiba could have a good size market for this player. Now as far as my HT goes I do not have a need for the player. I also really do not wish to buy anything from Toshiba for the foreseeable future. Just based on there behavor towards Blu-ray after they decided to throw in the towel. I do not like how Toshiba is acting like the little child that just got there cookie taken from them.

I was pretty much format neutral and purchased titles on both formats during the format war. I favored Blu-ray but would have kept buying HD-DVD if it had won. For me I am focusing on HD Blu-ray movies and I do not watch many of my SD-DVD anymore. I still enjoy them from time to time but I am slowly replacing them with HD versions when available. I am also currently in the middle of a HT overhaul which means I do not have money to spend on non vital equipment. So for me it is not worth it to buy another DVD player, as I already have a Denon DVD-2200 and a Sony DVP-S9000 ES.

Toshiba pushing this player does not help acceptance of HD. While this player has a place in the market it would have been nice if Toshiba would play nice with the other CE manufacturers. And help promote the format that the industry is trying to make successful.

Here is what Josh said:
I understand that this is NOT what the XDE does, but his statements make it clear he "HATES" that "enhanced" picture in the comparison link he posted. It doesn't matter if he originally posted it, but that he used it for his comparison of good and bad.

I personally think the after processing looked much better, but maybe on a 130" screen he would be right about it not looking good, but what percentage of people are using FP in the world in their homes?

Lets face it, he blasted this player in his review of it, and I was previously relying on HIS "review" of it based on his rep and when he posted that post I originally replied to (and re-quoted again here), it changed my perception of how little I could rely on his review afterwards. WHY? Because I think that after pic looked much much better with MY eyes.

If he wants a "film-like" look that is soft (as SD DVD IS), and as HE said he prefers, then that is HIS choice, and he is entitled to have it, but in this case, I completely disagree with him. It just tells me I cannot rely on his reviews going forward and will not read then for at least the PQ part as we see things differently. If he thinks I am blind then so be it, but I know what I like and he doesn't. Apparently he doesn't know what most people probably like and wants to change it by blasting products that provide the kind of look they might like so he gets want he likes from the studios.

Well...all I can say is that relying on any one person's review is probably a mistake anyway. There are many knowledgeable folks that have provided feedback in this thread. Some like, it some don't. His so called "blasting" of the product just balances out some of the over the top glowing reviews, IMO.

A film like image does not have to be soft. There are many very well mastered disks that are not soft and do not have artifically added sharpness. I guess the question is what do you do with the others? Do you enhance it with extra sharpness that can add halo's or leave it soft with no ringing. It depends on your setup and preference.

End result, it is very subjective. There is no right and wrong. It is just what works for each viewer. Just a note: there are quite a few on this forum with very large projection screens and they also need to hear reviews of how this might not be a good things in their setups.

You are correct I am not denying that Toshiba could have a good size market for this player. Now as far as my HT goes I do not have a need for the player. I also really do not wish to buy anything from Toshiba for the foreseeable future. Just based on there behavor towards Blu-ray after they decided to throw in the towel. I do not like how Toshiba is acting like the little child that just got there cookie taken from them.

I was pretty much format neutral and purchased titles on both formats during the format war. I favored Blu-ray but would have kept buying HD-DVD if it had won. For me I am focusing on HD Blu-ray movies and I do not watch many of my SD-DVD anymore. I still enjoy them from time to time but I am slowly replacing them with HD versions when available. I am also currently in the middle of a HT overhaul which means I do not have money to spend on non vital equipment. So for me it is not worth it to buy another DVD player, as I already have a Denon DVD-2200 and a Sony DVP-S9000 ES.

Toshiba pushing this player does not help acceptance of HD. While this player has a place in the market it would have been nice if Toshiba would play nice with the other CE manufacturers. And help promote the format that the industry is trying to make successful.

I can understand not buying equipment that you have limited need for. I basically feel the same way about not needing another (8th) SD DVD player, and except for kids movies only buy HDM now. When BD players get cheap enough for me to replace ALL my bedroom SD DVD players, my laptops, and my 2 car SD DVD players, THEN I will buy the kids movies on BD, unless the studios start including a SD DVD copy on kids movies instead the BS digital copy that requires new equipment anyway.

So what I am getting is that you DO still carry on the format war grudge because Toshiba doesn't help the BDA squash Toshiba's large SD DVD revenue stream by promoting BD over SD DVD?

They are a corporation that answers to stockholders and if they did what you want, those making the decisions would likely be fired pretty quick. How would you feel as a large Toshiba stockholder if they did that?

I do not begrudge either side from doing what they are doing since it is just business. I have owned both formats since 2006, so I was a dual format owner, but i wouldn't necessarily call myself neutral back then. I had my preference but who cares now? We have what we have now and that is all we have for HDM, until the next thing comes. ;)

Well...all I can say is that relying on any one person's review is probably a mistake anyway. There are many knowledgeable folks that have provided feedback in this thread. Some like, it some don't. His so called "blasting" of the product just balances out some of the over the top glowing reviews, IMO.

A film like image does not have to be soft. There are many very well mastered disks that are not soft and do not have artifically added sharpness. I guess the question is what do you do with the others? Do you enhance it with extra sharpness that can add halo's or leave it soft with no ringing. It depends on your setup and preference.

End result, it is very subjective. There is no right and wrong. It is just what works for each viewer. Just a note: there are quite a few on this forum with very large projection screens and they also need to hear reviews of how this might not be a good things in their setups.

Sure it is likely a mistake, but I was not relying on just his review/opinion, but certainly I "previously" put more wait on HIS review thinking he would be a better resource than both format war sides playing tit for tat with the reviews. Once I saw an example of what he considers good versus bad that changed it and what I posted about.

Lets face it, SD DVD will almost always come up "soft", at the least, compared to a HDM source, except for a couple of doozies that came out on both HD formats, so it is not a fair comparison IMO, to base a SD DVD player review on how it compares to a HDM source. Who could call that fair? If pro reviewers do that from here on out their reviews will be utterly useless going forward IMO. Do pro reviewers trade in objectivity to promote the next great format, or do they keep it all in perspective?

If a car review says all cars under $30,000.00 are junk when reviewed because they do not compare to a $80,000.00 BMW or Lexus, should we even read their reviews anymore? I am not saying that Josh went that far, but I am just making a point.

I agree in the end, it IS all subjective and should be treated as such and nothing right or wrong, but objective reviews need to remain "in class" or they are useless. If pro reviewers want to promote a format, then they should just add a line at the end saying "this ain't no HD (or BD now) player, but...."

So what I am getting is that you DO still carry on the format war grudge because Toshiba doesn't help the BDA squash Toshiba's large SD DVD revenue stream by promoting BD over SD DVD?

I do not think Toshiba has anything to worry about there revenue stream drying up anytime soon. Even if Blu-ray was to take over a decent part of the market SD-DVD's will be around for some time to come. How ever like many other formats SD-DVD will die some day and Toshiba will loose that revenue sooner or later, it is just a matter of time. Maybe around that time the next format comes around after Blu-ray, maybe Toshiba will be in line for that revenue and maybe it will be Sony or Panasonic or some other company?

I do not think Toshiba has anything to worry about there revenue stream drying up anytime soon. Even if Blu-ray was to take over a decent part of the market SD-DVD's will be around for some time to come. How ever like many other formats SD-DVD will die some day and Toshiba will loose that revenue sooner or later, it is just a matter of time. Maybe around that time the next format comes around after Blu-ray, maybe Toshiba will be in line for that revenue and maybe it will be Sony or Panasonic or some other company?

Right but name ONE company that would HELP remove their revenue stream which is something like $1 Billion a year? Would you quit your job and stop working for the "team" despite needing money to survive?

All I am saying is that corporations are not going to cut off a large Billion dollar annual revenue stream (like the SD DVD royalties) for nothing. Expecting them to do such is setting yourself up for disappointment IMO.

I could understand if they screwed you on warranty support or something but to not stop trying to hold onto such a large annual income base because you do not want it to hurt your future format of choice seems like a poor reason IMO.

If the BD format is that dependent on Toshiba to survive or flourish, then the format has more problems than anyone thought. If you think it will not matter, then where is the beef then? :confused:

I could understand if they screwed you on warranty support or something but to not stop trying to hold onto such a large annual income base because you do not want it to hurt your future format of choice seems like a poor reason IMO.

I look at it from the stand point of not wanting to support Toshiba because IMHO they are making things as difficult as possible on all CE manufacturers. While Toshiba is the one that pulled the plug sooner than they wanted to they also are refusing to actually help unify the end of the format war by joining every other CE company that is going Blu. I guess that because to me Toshiba is trying to do as much as they can to keep Blu-ray from being widely accepted by extending the life of DVD. Now granted all companies are in it for the money and I can not blame Toshiba for wanting to make a profit. I just have not liked what I see from Toshiba as a company and would rather buy better products from other companies. Will it matter if I do not buy the player? No but I also do not see any reason to buy there product. There are plenty of other companies working to help make Blu-ray successful and making products that offer better performance than Toshiba. If HD-DVD had won the war and had most CE companies backing them and the majority of the studios as well. I would fell the same with Sony, especially if they acted the same way Toshiba is now.


There where a few things I remember reading about with Toshiba that made me not want to spend money on there product and it honestly was not about them not building a Blu-ray player. I am sitting here trying to remember what they where and dam, I can not remember what they where. :o


Now as far as the new Toshiba SD-DVD player goes, if one is in the market for a DVD player with the newest technology and is not looking to get into HD. Then Toshiba's new DVD player would most likely be a great addition to there HT. I do not want to make it sound as if Toshiba's new player is not good or that it should not be sold. Like I said before that it sounds like it offers quite a bit and for someone looking to get something for SD-DVD the XD-E500 for the money sounds like a winner. But for me I am concentrating on a 1080 HD HT, with SD-DVD's, HD-DVD's, Blu-ray and HD content from Direct TV. Until the next newest and greatest thing comes along I have to center everything around HD Blu-ray playback and the XD-E500 does not fit into my plans.

I say good for Toshiba! If it can reinvigorate DVD then more competition for BD! I bought into BD when it had 2 for 1 sales. I haven't seen any of these at BB for some time so I haven't bought any more Blu-Rays - they are just too damn expensive. Hopefully Toshiba has a Resolution + (SRT) player up its sleeve that will really scare the crap out of the BDA so it'll have to get serious about pricing. Competition makes for a better product and better pricing so my hat's off to Toshiba. Why should the BDA get a free ride?

Anyway, I like the "enhanced" example and if you think I'm blind, what do I care. Some people here really need to get over themselves - so it's my way or the highway - well, have a nice lonely life.

Hi, I had to post my thoughts after reading all the negative "opinions" from people who have never seen this dvd player in action.
I have to see things for myself , so I went to Circuit city and took one home , if I didn't like it I would just return it.
I don't own a Blue ray , but I've had HD service at home for two years, and I've been editing hd video for about three years.(Sometimes paid hobby). So I know what hd looks like.
This is a dvd player , so of course doesn't have the resolution that an hd player has. But dvds look great. Depending of the quality of the movie it can look almost look hd , and that to me is YES ,good enough. I've test it with a lot of movies,and I like it very much.(no problems with DVD_Rs BTW).
About the sharp mode , for anyone who is trying it, if the movie looks like it has too much sharpness, don't turn of sharp mode.Instead , lower your sharpness setting on your tv. (on one movie I went minus 10 on my tv to get what I considered the best). And don't believe what you see in a photo.I tried it and what you see when paused is NOT the same as when the movie is playing. This are supposed to be moving pictures anyway.

Thanks for posting this. I may end up checking it out now.

I look at it from the stand point of not wanting to support Toshiba because IMHO they are making things as difficult as possible on all CE manufacturers. While Toshiba is the one that pulled the plug sooner than they wanted to they also are refusing to actually help unify the end of the format war by joining every other CE company that is going Blu. I guess that because to me Toshiba is trying to do as much as they can to keep Blu-ray from being widely accepted by extending the life of DVD. Now granted all companies are in it for the money and I can not blame Toshiba for wanting to make a profit. I just have not liked what I see from Toshiba as a company and would rather buy better products from other companies. Will it matter if I do not buy the player? No but I also do not see any reason to buy there product. There are plenty of other companies working to help make Blu-ray successful and making products that offer better performance than Toshiba. If HD-DVD had won the war and had most CE companies backing them and the majority of the studios as well. I would fell the same with Sony, especially if they acted the same way Toshiba is now.


There where a few things I remember reading about with Toshiba that made me not want to spend money on there product and it honestly was not about them not building a Blu-ray player. I am sitting here trying to remember what they where and dam, I can not remember what they where. :o


Now as far as the new Toshiba SD-DVD player goes, if one is in the market for a DVD player with the newest technology and is not looking to get into HD. Then Toshiba's new DVD player would most likely be a great addition to there HT. I do not want to make it sound as if Toshiba's new player is not good or that it should not be sold. Like I said before that it sounds like it offers quite a bit and for someone looking to get something for SD-DVD the XD-E500 for the money sounds like a winner. But for me I am concentrating on a 1080 HD HT, with SD-DVD's, HD-DVD's, Blu-ray and HD content from Direct TV. Until the next newest and greatest thing comes along I have to center everything around HD Blu-ray playback and the XD-E500 does not fit into my plans.

You do understand that Toshiba is a company on to itself, and is not going to fall behind a product when it believes it had a better product. As for Blueray be successful, they'll have to do that on their own. If Toshiba was trying to undermind Blueray they would have come out with a HD player not an SD one. To me other than the sound advantage I don't see where Blueray has done much to convert customers. They still don't have 2.0 players out (not that it will add much to product). Many of the advances they made came because of HD DVD, and without it who knows what will happen. I now own a Blueray, but am please that I now have a player that makes my orig dvds look good enough that I don't need to buy Blueray disk. I will buy the ones that are blockbusters but to pay twice as much for movies that are based on drama, plot or story line when better audio really won't matter, would be a waste of money to me.

We're here to talk about the player, not Toshiba. Let's get back on track.

Also, somebody mentioned sending 480p from the player for no upconversion. Yes, the player won't do it, but your display will. There are no 720x480 digital displays so the image needs to be scaled and (possibly) colorspace converted - which is upconversion. Getting this player for 480p doesn't make much sense because the Zoran deinterlacer is tier 2 (or 3). The Mediatek solutions from Oppo deinterlace better. The Silicon Optix and ABT solutions are on top.

larry

Thank god for return policies. I'll take a look for myself and decide whether or not to keep it based on how I like it. IMO, the comments posted on this thread are entertaining, but that's about it. I did find the linked comparisons of SD and "enhanced" educational and interesting enough to inspire me to try out this player - so thanks for those.

Hi, I had to post my thoughts after reading all the negative "opinions" from people who have never seen this dvd player in action.
I have to see things for myself , so I went to Circuit city and took one home , if I didn't like it I would just return it.
I don't own a Blue ray , but I've had HD service at home for two years, and I've been editing hd video for about three years.(Sometimes paid hobby). So I know what hd looks like.
This is a dvd player , so of course doesn't have the resolution that an hd player has. But dvds look great. Depending of the quality of the movie it can look almost look hd , and that to me is YES ,good enough. I've test it with a lot of movies,and I like it very much.(no problems with DVD_Rs BTW).
About the sharp mode , for anyone who is trying it, if the movie looks like it has too much sharpness, don't turn of sharp mode.Instead , lower your sharpness setting on your tv. (on one movie I went minus 10 on my tv to get what I considered the best). And don't believe what you see in a photo.I tried it and what you see when paused is NOT the same as when the movie is playing. This are supposed to be moving pictures anyway.

Good observation. Turn down sharpness on the display since the way the player is different than the display.

This player is certainly worth looking at. I have found that my own yard stick for excellence often difers with reviewers.

We're here to talk about the player, not Toshiba. Let's get back on track.

Also, somebody mentioned sending 480p from the player for no upconversion. Yes, the player won't do it, but your display will. There are no 720x480 digital displays so the image needs to be scaled and (possibly) colorspace converted - which is upconversion. Getting this player for 480p doesn't make much sense because the Zoran deinterlacer is tier 2 (or 3). The Mediatek solutions from Oppo deinterlace better. The Silicon Optix and ABT solutions are on top.

larry

Thanks for bringing up the player, I was about to ask where to go to discuss actually using it, I got mine yesterday and it looked very good on my 62" 720p Mits. Just a little better than the Zenith/LG 318DB upscalers that I have been using. Didn't have much time to work with it but I have a 55" RP CRT and it didn't get a picture at all on any of the settings. Used "auto" on the 720p.

I have no problems in accepting your argument. A good player should be able to reproduce a disk as it was encoded. By all accounts the Toshiba player with post processing turned off does just that.

Except that it doesn't. The player's MPEG decoder is quite mediocre and produces a very soft image without the enhancements, softer than other comparable upconverting DVD players (such as the Oppo 980H). The enhancements are needed to compensate for the softness, but Toshiba has dialed them in too strongly.

Except that it doesn't. The player's MPEG decoder is quite mediocre and produces a very soft image without the enhancements, softer than other comparable upconverting DVD players (such as the Oppo 980H). The enhancements are needed to compensate for the softness, but Toshiba has dialed them in too strongly.

How do you know that the Oppo is reproducing the image as it was endoded and not enhancing it? Just because the image is soft does not mean it was not encoded that way. Or am I missing something here?

Also from what I know, Mediatek is a vanilla mpeg 2 decoder. I think you're confusing deinterlacing and scaling with the decoding function.

How do you know that the Oppo is reproducing the image as it was endoded and not enhancing it? Just because the image is soft does not mean it was not encoded that way. Or am I missing something here?

I compared the XD-E500 against 5 different DVD players. With enhancements off, it produced the softest picture of all of them.

Also from what I know, Mediatek is a vanilla mpeg 2 decoder.

Which would make Zoran what, artificial vanilla?

I think you're confusing deinterlacing and scaling with the decoding function.

My 980H is set for 480i output, no deinterlacing or scaling performed by the player.

I compared the XD-E500 against 5 different DVD players. With enhancements off, it produced the softest picture of all of them.



Which would make Zoran what, artificial vanilla?



My 980H is set for 480i output, no deinterlacing or scaling performed by the player.

If what you say is true then Toshiba made a big mistake. mpeg2 decoders can be had for free. The way decoders work is that either they decode correctly or incorrectly. If Toshiba is using a decoder that is adding artificial sharpness to the image then that is a basic design flaw. Once again, you can get products that handle mpeg-2 decoding perfectly for free! So, IF what you say is true, Toshiba engineers are clueless since mpeg-2 decoding could not have been a cost saving feature since it is practically free! Hence my emphasis on the IF. I find it hard to believe.....

However, your 'artificial vanilla' comment does raise a possibility. Most mpeg-2 decoders I have seen also have the ability to turn on deblocking and deringing algorithms. By default they are turned off. If you turn these on, the effect will indeed be to add softness to the image. Perhaps Toshiba is turning these on in the mpeg 2 decoding (which means it is not true untouched 480i) and then applying their XDE post processing on top of that. Still, it does not change the fact that selecting a good mpeg 2 decoder is the problem. The decoding of mpeg 2 is never the problem. Not in 2008!

So does this player have ability to save a place in a dvd using a remote command to return to next time you put the disc in as do most other dvd players?The feature is great when you are viewing a multidisc series.I realize if you just shut down the player it doesnt save where you left off but does it have this save feature button on the remote?

I never understand why a company would choose Zoran which is flag-based MPEG decoder (Samsung, Toshiba, and JVC for example). Zoran has ALWAYS been regarded as pretty weak chipset. Mediatek would have been much better although with a softer MPEG decoder the enhancements would seem more drastic and special.

If you like enhancements at the DVD player level, the cheap Phillips 5982, 5990/5992 ($40-60 each) can adjust contrast, brightness, color saturation, and sharpness with Mediatek chipset and 1080p60 support.

I compared the XD-E500 against 5 different DVD players. With enhancements off, it produced the softest picture of all of them.



Which would make Zoran what, artificial vanilla?



My 980H is set for 480i output, no deinterlacing or scaling performed by the player.

Your posts seem to indicate an inate dislike for this player. It seems to have hurt you at an emotional level. Why?

I tried this player out on Thursday and Friday and it went back today.

The sharpness was too pronounced for my taste and it was similar to the sharpness setting I once tried in a Denon 1920 DVD player but with a bit lower noise. The other settings were subtle and I had mixed feelings about them. To be fair it did put out a better picture than any DVD player I have owned.

I suppose the truth is after a restricted diet of HD DVDs and Blu ray (I watch very little on TV and have just 9 or ten DVDs left) it is simply too little too late and overpriced. Had toshiba come out with this a couple of years ago before I got into HD then I most likely would have been more exited with its performance. Toshiba should have put out the SRT player instead as I suspect it would have faired a bit better in terms of picture quality.

Your posts seem to indicate an inate dislike for this player. It seems to have hurt you at an emotional level. Why?

Stop being ridiculous. I've never said I hated this player. I simply think it's overrated and does not do what it claims to do (make DVDs look "near high-def").

You, on the other hand, seem to be personally hurt by any criticism of the player. Why is that?

Here's what it boils down to: If you like the over-sharpened, extremely edge enhanced look with thick halos in every frame, then you'll love this player. If you don't, you won't.

If that's really what you want, by all means enjoy it. However, there's no need to get upset or personally offended when people who don't like that look point out these qualities as drawbacks. Because to us they very much are drawbacks.

I am not innately opposed to all sharpening or post-processing, but I do object to them when they're overdone. The XD-E500 is very overdone. The edge enhancement is too strong and there's no way to turn it down. Toshiba would have been better served to make the setting adjustable. But they didn't. It's edge enhancement to the maximum at all times.

I find that a significant flaw, and I know a lot of other people will too. So you'll just have to forgive me for voicing a counter opinion to your continual claims that the XD-E500 is the end-all/be-all, greatest DVD player of all time. :rolleyes:

If he wants a "film-like" look that is soft (as SD DVD IS), and as HE said he prefers, then that is HIS choice, and he is entitled to have it, but in this case, I completely disagree with him. It just tells me I cannot rely on his reviews going forward and will not read then for at least the PQ part as we see things differently. If he thinks I am blind then so be it, but I know what I like and he doesn't. Apparently he doesn't know what most people probably like and wants to change it by blasting products that provide the kind of look they might like so he gets want he likes from the studios.

Look, here's a photo of Cameron Diaz, a lovely lady to be sure:

http://www.mindspring.com/~lizap/diaz.jpg

The photo is a little soft. It looks like they defocused it intentionally, but it still looks nice overall. Would you agree with that?

Here's the same photo with too much edge enhancement applied:

http://www.mindspring.com/~lizap/diaz-edgy.jpg

Which version looks better to you? If you prefer the edge enhanced version, then I'm afraid we have no common ground. I think it makes her look terrifying. If you don't, well then there isn't much we can talk about. We just have very different perceptions of what good picture quality should be. So be it.

Now, I'm not saying that the edge enhancement in the XD-E500 is this bad. I'm merely using it to illustrate a point. Too much artificial sharpening is harmful to an image. Even though it may seem to draw out more detail that was harder to see before, the negative side effects (giving the picture an extremely edgy and unnatural appearance) outweigh the benefits. I'm sure the reality of what Cameron Diaz looks like in person falls somewhere between these two examples, but if I had to choose, I'd choose the softer photo.

If you can't agree with that, then that's all there is to this conversation. You're on one side and I'm on the other.

Josh, you claimed that you prefered the before all2HD to the after effect. The screeshot I provided was a closer example of what the XDE does v. what you have put here.

I did not deliberately mutilate a picture to prove my point!

A side effect of being on AVS has made me rethink the whole idea of buying a magazine to read the reviews by so called experts.

At this point I am better of going by my own judgment and by what the 'man on the street' says.

Certainly an eye opening experience (excuse the pun :))

Feedback from IFA re Tosh XDE500

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7675813&postcount=1

D

Feedback from IFA re Tosh XDE500


D

"A complete and utter disaster"

Strong words. Maybe too strong? Something like, "Really doesn't live up to the claims in my opinion" would probably have been more appropriate.

A review based on science, huh? :rolleyes:

i think it would make the most sense to pitch it against a non-upconverting progessive player (letting a more-generic tv scaler do the work) as well as a basic upvonverting dvd player (such as the faroudja chips in many of the newer denon avrs or the next level up chip in the HK avrs). I think this would give it a much better baseline to compare it to. and i agree with the general consensus here,@ 80$ this thing would wipe the floor clean of the other 'upconverting' dvd players; but at it's current price i cannot justify an outdated technology; in two-three years of use dvd's may be obsolete, hell in 5 years bluray may even be...

A review based on science, huh? :rolleyes:

It's feedback based on viewing at the IFA CE event. I don't think Toshiba would allow him to run test routines on their booth. That said given the nature of the event I would have thought Tosh would want to show the players at their best.

More detailed feedback here including some objective test and image results.

http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hdtv-praxis.de%2Fmodules.php%3Fop%3Dmodload%26name%3DPagEd%26file %3Dindex%26topic_id%3D2%26page_id%3D554&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=de&tl=en

D

I find it hard to believe people are arguing against picture enhancements in an up converting DVD player thread. If you're against that, then why in the world would you be in this thread? Or do we now need to qualify it (enhancements) with levels?
John

Its pretty simple (for me anyway).

Enhancements that bring the dvd image closer to the original are wanted. (Smooth image more like film, colors accurate to the original film etc)

Enhancements that distort the image (high edge enhancement, enhanced coloring etc) are not wanted.

Its pretty simple (for me anyway).

Enhancements that bring the dvd image closer to the original are wanted. (Smooth image more like film, colors accurate to the original film etc)

Enhancements that distort the image (high edge enhancement, enhanced coloring etc) are not wanted.

Sure but its not that simple. Heck even you say "high" edge enhancement.

So that means you do want some edge enhancement, so you do want some "distort" of the image.

For what it's worth, I've seen Cameron Diaz up close several times over the last few months and she looks much closer to the second, lower photo than the first.

I'm just saying...

Look, here's a photo of Cameron Diaz, a lovely lady to be sure:

http://www.mindspring.com/~lizap/diaz.jpg

The photo is a little soft. It looks like they defocused it intentionally, but it still looks nice overall. Would you agree with that?

Here's the same photo with too much edge enhancement applied:

http://www.mindspring.com/~lizap/diaz-edgy.jpg

Which version looks better to you? If you prefer the edge enhanced version, then I'm afraid we have no common ground. I think it makes her look terrifying. If you don't, well then there isn't much we can talk about. We just have very different perceptions of what good picture quality should be. So be it.

Now, I'm not saying that the edge enhancement in the XD-E500 is this bad. I'm merely using it to illustrate a point. Too much artificial sharpening is harmful to an image. Even though it may seem to draw out more detail that was harder to see before, the negative side effects (giving the picture an extremely edgy and unnatural appearance) outweigh the benefits. I'm sure the reality of what Cameron Diaz looks like in person falls somewhere between these two examples, but if I had to choose, I'd choose the softer photo.

If you can't agree with that, then that's all there is to this conversation. You're on one side and I'm on the other.

If the second picture of her is what she REALLY looks like, then that is what I want to see. As neither of us know what picture is closest to reality we have no basis to discuss this picture. I have NEVER seen any screen shots of the XDE that do that much to the picture, so I do not know WHY you chose to use something that is NOT representative of the difference we are talking about. Even your own words posted say the XDE does do this much sharpening, so please try to get more realistic pictures for the comparison.

I went by that link you reposted earlier when you said the before picture looked much better and YOU said the after was basically a butchered picture. I didn't see that and if you really did see it that way like you posted before, then we are not even in the same state for which looks better. You have every right to not like that previous link comparison (not the Cameron Diaz one), and buy you saying the after processing pic looked bad, I just realized that I could not use your "subjective opinion" to determine if it is a decent player or not because we see it differently.

Previously I apparently put too much wait on your opinion and based that weight of your opinion of this player from reading your reviews before. After you provided your opinion of that linked comparison, I realize we are almost on different ends of this issue because I thought the after pic in that link looked much better myself.

I appreciate you giving your opinion on that link so I could judge what your words should mean to me in regards to this player. No offence, but I now know I cannot give hardly any weight to your subjective opinion of the XDE player based on the opposite sides we are on with that linked phote comparison.

Naturally that second Diaz photo looks bad but is that is what she looks like in person, then I want to see it as close as I can to what the subject would look like if i saw it in person, with my own eyes.

The XDE500 is available to order in the UK but it is priced at £130 (~ $240). Does it perform as well as other players around $240 in terms of deinterlacing, audio output options, supported formats i.e. solid basics ?

D

Sure but its not that simple. Heck even you say "high" edge enhancement.

So that means you do want some edge enhancement, so you do want some "distort" of the image.


No, you have presumed incorrectly.

High = is noticable (Draws attention to itself)

Low = not noticable (its either Low or Not there)

Picture quality depends on resolution , size of the display and viewing distance.
Blue Ray 2 feet from the screen would look bad.I just finished watching I AM LEGEND on the xde and it looked fantastic.42" panasonic plasma at about 11 feet from it. At less than 8 feet I can see some artifacts and closer than that it doesn't look so good anymore. But like I said before, from 11 feet I did not feel like needing blue ray at all.
Sharpness on the tv at minus 9.
Of course this is a well encoded movie. The ones that look bad just look bad.
I'm very happy with the xde.

Look, here's a photo of Cameron Diaz, a lovely lady to be sure:

http://www.mindspring.com/~lizap/diaz.jpg

The photo is a little soft. It looks like they defocused it intentionally, but it still looks nice overall. Would you agree with that?

Here's the same photo with too much edge enhancement applied:

http://www.mindspring.com/~lizap/diaz-edgy.jpg

Which version looks better to you? If you prefer the edge enhanced version, then I'm afraid we have no common ground. I think it makes her look terrifying. If you don't, well then there isn't much we can talk about. We just have very different perceptions of what good picture quality should be. So be it.

Now, I'm not saying that the edge enhancement in the XD-E500 is this bad. I'm merely using it to illustrate a point. Too much artificial sharpening is harmful to an image. Even though it may seem to draw out more detail that was harder to see before, the negative side effects (giving the picture an extremely edgy and unnatural appearance) outweigh the benefits. I'm sure the reality of what Cameron Diaz looks like in person falls somewhere between these two examples, but if I had to choose, I'd choose the softer photo.

If you can't agree with that, then that's all there is to this conversation. You're on one side and I'm on the other.

The picture I'm seeing from the Toshiba looks nothing like that. How did you make it look that bad ?

Okay - I just picked one of these up from Circuit City last night to try it out.

Are the nay-sayers here reacting to this after actually seeing it? YES - it does add some edge enhancement, YES - it toys with the original picture a bit, but I'll tell you what - on my 110" screen, with the Color/Sharp mode on - the picture is absolutely great.

Switching back and forth between "off" and "color/sharp" looks like someone removed vaseline from the lens.

I think this is a great player for $150. I've owned an Oppo before (the first one without an HDMI port - it was a while ago) And i think this beats it.

I am curious to see a 980 or 981 (I would love to see the 983, which I'm SURE beats the E500) but I'd be really surprised if the 980/981 beat out this picture.

Anyone sitting on the fence, I'd recommend buying one of these - I'm pretty impressed.

It beats the pants off my blu-ray player for upconverting DVD's (BD30).

Just thought of something else - the opening scene of "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" is a good test for me with the opening credits. They are outlined with very subtle lines - and usually with a bad player you an see jaggies on these credits. My BD30 was horrible. The E500 smooths out these lines substantially. With the color/sharp mode on you can see a bit of edge enhancement but it sharpens them up even more and adds more vibrancy/detail to the picture. Again, my screen is 110" (1.85) in 2.35:1 mode it's - i dunno - about 130"? never measured - and even at 2.35:1 the picture here is noticeably better than any upconverting player I've ever owned...

Also - the sample of Cameron Diaz above is a great example of over sharpening. Don't let this misrepresentation of sharpening sway you from this player. It's absolutely untrue as to what I'm seeing with the sharpening on.

After reading some of the comments here I just can't wait to buy one of these (with a return policy, of course) and see for myself. One thing's for sure - we can only agree that we disagree! It just shows you how differently people see the world and that's why anyone claiming that they're right about something is using the "wrong" approach. Rather than digging in our heels, maybe we could learn something - just a thought.

For what it's worth, I've seen Cameron Diaz up close several times over the last few months and she looks much closer to the second, lower photo than the first.

I'm just saying...

I suspected as much. :D

The picture I'm seeing from the Toshiba looks nothing like that. How did you make it look that bad ?

It would be nice if you bothered to read what I wrote. Why don't you try doing that now?

If the second picture of her is what she REALLY looks like, then that is what I want to see.

Do you really think that picture looks like something you'd see in reality? Honestly?

Naturally that second Diaz photo looks bad but is that is what she looks like in person, then I want to see it as close as I can to what the subject would look like if i saw it in person, with my own eyes.

You've missed the point entirely. What you should want to see is what the photographer intended the photo to look like, not a distorted version of it.

Josh, you claimed that you prefered the before all2HD to the after effect. The screeshot I provided was a closer example of what the XDE does v. what you have put here.

The example I posted was exaggerated to demonstrate a point, and I said so in the original post. The point was what artificial sharpening does at its absolute worst.

Nevertheless, there seem to be people here who say they prefer the edge enhanced Cameron Diaz photo, even though I went out of my way to make it as hideously distorted as I could.

That being the case, there's really nothing I can do here any longer. If you like the edge enhanced look, no matter how excessive it may be, I'm never going to convince you otherwise. So go ahead and enjoy the player.

I hope there may be some people reading this thread who maybe aren't posting, who understand what I'm trying to explain. Despite marketing claims to the contrary, the XDE player does not create any real picture detail from a DVD source. All it does is apply heavy edge enhancement, which many of us in the videophile community have been fighting against for years. If, like me, you think that's a bad idea, then this player is not worth purchasing.

The example I posted was exaggerated to demonstrate a point, and I said so in the original post. The point was what artificial sharpening does at its absolute worst.

Nevertheless, there seem to be people here who say they prefer the edge enhanced Cameron Diaz photo, even though I went out of my way to make it as hideously distorted as I could.

That being the case, there's really nothing I can do here any longer. If you like the edge enhanced look, no matter how excessive it may be, I'm never going to convince you otherwise. So go ahead and enjoy the player.

I hope there may be some people reading this thread who maybe aren't posting, who understand what I'm trying to explain. Despite marketing claims to the contrary, the XDE player does not create any real picture detail from a DVD source. All it does is apply heavy edge enhancement, which many of us in the videophile community have been fighting against for years. If, like me, you think that's a bad idea, then this player is not worth purchasing.

Yes Josh - we got it - you don't like this Toshiba player for whatever reasons. That's your privilege. You've explained yourself - maybe even a bit over the top with the doctored up Cameron photos. If you want a crowd to applaud you for this assessment, this does not appear to be the right place.
Personally, I look forward to trying out this player - it sounds very promising and potentially a great way to extend the life of my sd-dvd's by enhancing their performance when viewed on my 1080p TV. :cool:

Everyone got it. Too much unsharp mask=bad, soft focus image=good

"What you should want to see"

Thanks for explaining.

"So go ahead and enjoy the player"

Thanks, Josh.

arkiedan

The example I posted was exaggerated to demonstrate a point, and I said so in the original post. The point was what artificial sharpening does at its absolute worst.

Nevertheless, there seem to be people here who say they prefer the edge enhanced Cameron Diaz photo, even though I went out of my way to make it as hideously distorted as I could.

That being the case, there's really nothing I can do here any longer. If you like the edge enhanced look, no matter how excessive it may be, I'm never going to convince you otherwise. So go ahead and enjoy the player.

I hope there may be some people reading this thread who maybe aren't posting, who understand what I'm trying to explain. Despite marketing claims to the contrary, the XDE player does not create any real picture detail from a DVD source. All it does is apply heavy edge enhancement, which many of us in the videophile community have been fighting against for years. If, like me, you think that's a bad idea, then this player is not worth purchasing.

I am confused why you would counter my realistic comparison screenshots, with a butchered one of your own. The screenshot I put was not doctored in any way.

Nevertheless, there seem to be people here who say they prefer the edge enhanced Cameron Diaz photo, even though I went out of my way to make it as hideously distorted as I could.



I think someone said that if that is what Diaz really looked like, then they would prefer the second picture and not the first where she may have been touched up by a make-up artist. And I think the poster was being facetious.

I think the second picture looks hideous, but as you qualified, you had gone out of your way to make it so.

I am on the fence on this one but the debate seems to be crystallizing into pro-post processing and anti-post processing crowd. I am still not sure why post-processing (used intelligently) or DNR for that matter, should make the viewing experience less enjoyable rather than more. After all, Carmen Diaz, to use your example, has been 'processed' before putting her in front of the camera, purely to make her look more pleasing to the viewer. Wouldn't your 'purist' logic also demand that she be presented 'warts and all' to the viewing public? In which case, she may very well look a bit like your second picture?

So, if the actors are 'processed' before they are put in front of the camera, what is wrong with doing some processing afterward to maximize the picture quality?

Just my 2 cents

My 500 is due here tomorrow on ups and i am anxious to see for myself how it looks. My main player is an Oppo 983 with my bedroom player being an XA2 so i know what a good sd upconvert picture looks like. I have several calibration disks but i think i will just watch a couple of my favorite movies and compare that way so as to give my view of how the 500 picture looks to an average viewer who has hddvd movies and quality upconverters. Will post when i have seen real life viewing of dvd movies.