XD-E500 Owners thread. [Text View] - Page 3

reincarnate

09-07-08, 04:10 PM

Here is the first professional review of the Toshiba XDE-500 from the British publication What HI-Fi Sound and Vision:

* For
‘Sharp’ mode offers incredibly detailed pictures; naturally vibrant colours; smooth, stable motion; nice styling
* Against
Sound could do with just a little more refinement

Toshiba's HD-DVD is dead, but the company hasn't given up the fight against Blu-ray.

Although a new DVD player might not sound like the most exciting alternative to Sony's HD format, the XD-E500's onboard eXtended Detail Enhancement (XDE) technology is designed to 'bring standard DVD quality closer to the HD experience'.

While neither the picture nor sound produced here can match HD quality, the 'E500's still a mighty fine DVD player. Watch the brilliant Iron Man and the picture the 'E500 produces is outstanding.

Pin-sharp edge definition
Detail levels are exceptional, while edge definition is pin-sharp and colours are pleasingly vibrant. Fast motion is equally excellent, with minimal judder and ghosting.

This sterling performance has been achieved by combining 1080p upscaling with the XDE tech, which analyses the entire picture on the fly and intelligently enhances edges as needed.

Brilliant sharp edges
There are three XDE modes: 'Sharp' does the edge enhancing, while 'Colour' is intended for bright outdoor scenes and 'Contrast' for dark scenes.

In practice, no-one's going to pause the film to change settings, and we actually found that neither was worth the effort anyway. Stick to 'Sharp' mode, though, and you'll get a DVD picture that might just be the best in class.

Audio is decent too, with the Toshiba producing a dramatic, direct delivery, although some rivals offer a little more in the way of refinement and low-end detail.

So, the XD-E500 might not match Blu-ray, but it's still one of the most accomplished DVD players we've seen, and at a very reasonable price - what could be wrong with that?

http://whathifi.com/Review/Toshiba-XD-E500/

jerryg25

09-07-08, 04:13 PM

The thing i have read so far about the 500 is its lack of adjustments you either like or dislike the settings no in between. The 983 and xa2 are fully ajustable and can be set to personnal preferences and that makes a big difference in how you view a dvd. I agree i dont believe that any upconvert player can match hd disks but i believe they can improve on sd disks. For instances i have the 5th element in sd and superbit and i can see some improvement in quality with the higher bit rate of the superbit. No real ajustments except for off on is my main concern about the 500.

reincarnate

09-07-08, 04:39 PM

More reviews from a German web site using Google to translate:

"I know-I know-The $ 64.000 question ...
Is the SuperUpConverter a "Blu-ray killer"? Is the SuperUpConverter a "Blu-ray killer?
Well, since I don't own a Blu-ray player, I can't really say. Well, since I do not own a Blu-ray player, I can not really say. However, my opinion, based on evaluations of Blu-ray vs HD DVD [using a PS3 and a Toshiba HD-A35 on a 46" Sony XBR5 a few months ago] have left me with the very strong opinion that, assuming the same However, my opinion, based on evaluations of Blu-ray vs. HD DVD [using a PS3 and a Toshiba HD-A35 on a 46 "Sony XBR5 a few months ago] have left me with the very strong opinion that, assuming the same
transfer/encode/film... transfer / encode / film ... There is no visual difference between There is no visual difference between
Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD. Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD. Therefore, extrapolating on that previous Therefore, extrapolating on that previous
test... Test ... I am going to say that, NO, THE TOSHIBA XDE/SuperUpConverter I am going to say that, NO, THE TOSHIBA XDE / SuperUpConverter
IS NOT a BLU-RAY [or HD DVD] KILLER. IS NOT a BLU-RAY [or HD DVD] KILLER.
That being said... That being said ... The Toshiba XD-E500 at all times looked like TRUE HIGH DEFINITION in terms of sharpness and color. The XD-Toshiba E500 at all times looked like TRUE HIGH DEFINITION in terms of sharpness and color. It literally blew me away, and it is without a doubt the very best UpConverter I have ever seen. It literally blew me away, and it is without a doubt the very best UpConverter I have ever seen. This player's radical new approach of analyzing 9 frames of video in real time is a quantum leap forward in upscaling mechanics that deserves some kind of major tech/achievement award. This player's radical new approach of analyzing 9 frames of video in real time is a quantum leap forward in upscaling mechanics that deserves some kind of major tech / achievement award. I want to repeat something to make sure you caught it... I want to repeat something to make sure you caught it ... The Toshiba XD-E500 at all times looked like TRUE HIGH DEFINITION in terms of sharpness and color. The XD-Toshiba E500 at all times looked like TRUE HIGH DEFINITION in terms of sharpness and color.

The bottom-line? The bottom line?
If you own even 149 DVDs? If you own even 149 DVDs? You would have to be crazy not to invest a paltry $149 in a device that will in fact, raise them to a level of performance that would convince anyone that they were watching true HD video. You would have to be crazy not to invest a paltry $ 149 in a device that will in fact, raise them to a level of performance that would convince anyone that they were watching true HD video.

What else can I say other than don't wait for DVD 2.0 which any marketing major will tell you is exactly one year away, and won't produce a picture any better than this! What else can I say other than do not wait for DVD 2.0 which any major marketing will tell you is exactly one year away, and will not produce a picture any better than this! It will just have HDi menu's IF the Blu-ray gravy-train It will just have HDi menu's IF the Blu-ray gravy-train
riding studios decide to support it... riding studios decide to support it ... A very big if guys! A very big if guys!"

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Favforum.no%2Fforum%2Fdvd-cd-spillere-opptakere%2F75984-ny-toshiba-dvd-oppkonverterer-xde-500-a.html&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=de&tl=en

oldcband

09-07-08, 04:55 PM

PFC5

09-07-08, 04:58 PM

Do you really think that picture looks like something you'd see in reality? Honestly?

Do you mean would anyone take a picture like the second one and photoshop it to look like the first? :D

Yeah I think they do this all the time myself.

You've missed the point entirely. What you should want to see is what the photographer intended the photo to look like, not a distorted version of it.

Before or after altering with Photo Shop on the second pic? See that IS the problem. I have never been a big fan of the artsy fartsy effects some directors like to do on movies. The movie 300 is a perfect example. Many love that effect they did on it, but I do not. When I look at a movie, I want it to look like I am really there watching it in person. The only time I could imagine seeing something in person like that is WHILE they are performing eye surgery on me. :lol:

For those people like yourself, who do not want to alter the picture, why do you even watch SD DVD? And if you do, do you watch it in 480i? Whenever you use ANY post processing at all you ARE altering it from the source (as you said you do not like to do). I asked this before but you left that out of your reply. Lets face it, whenever you compare a 480i signal to a 1080p signal there will not be a comparison that can be done fairly. If you are going to go into reviewing SD devices and comparing them to HD then why bother doing a SD device review at all? Just say, all SD devices suck and everyone should only buy BD from now on. :p

Many people do not want to buy into BD yet because of the price for players, BD movie prices (especially catalog titles that cost 3-4x what they cost on SD DVD), and the paltry number of titles on BD right now. There are something like 770 BD titles so far after over 2.3 years, but SD DVD had about 4,000 titles out by that same time frame on SD DVD. I personally think that BD studios are not really behind BD as they like to proclaim since they are putting out about 1/5 the selection of titles compared to SD DVD so far, and that gives me pause to have a 2nd orphaned movie library yet again. The vast selection of SD DVD titles will make many people just WAIT for BD to actually show signs it WANTS to be a mainstream format instead of an enthusiast niche format.

I will say it again. If you think that the second processed picture in the first link (not the Diaz pic) here is bad we have opposite views of what looks good, and suspect you are in the elite minority who think this way:

http://www.digital-digest.com/windvd9_all2hd.html

If YOU think it looks as bad as you stated before, then we clearly have no common ground, and I think you will find the vast majority of the public we not agree with you either IMO. What good is reviewing everything by comparing it to HDM as you will possibly just isolate your reviews to only being relevant to the elitists then. If that is the only demographic you write reviews for, then you should have a disclaimer and hopefully show an example of what you think is bad like you did here so I can remove your review opinions from my consideration process in the future.

That link showing the processed AFTER image is EXACTLY the kind of enhancements I think would improve SD DVD to be better than it has been before. It will not be HD, but this is likely the limit of how good SD DVD could get. If the XDE player tech showed up in a BD player that already had the features/build quality I wanted I would pay more to get that upscaling. I may even go back on my plan to limit myself to only buying more BD players (I have 2 now) going forward but would like that tech in a BD player even more.

reincarnate

09-07-08, 05:08 PM

Many video camera's shoot native at 24Hz progressive. My $900 Canon HV20 camcorder does too, which is why I purchased it.
Film to is both shot and mastered at 24Hz. The extra frames required for 60Hz playback do NOT need to be inserted or recorded on the DVD. Its really just a waste of space.
So Toshiba is really on to something big here playing back DVD's at the same rate they were recorded at. This is a major reason why they look better.
For detailed information see:
http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/24p_in_FCP_nattress.html

reincarnate

09-07-08, 05:15 PM

Do you mean would anyone take a picture like the second one and photoshop it to look like the first? :D

PFC5. Are you a moderator over in the HIGHDEF forum? A bit far from home?

reincarnate

09-07-08, 05:19 PM

What was the reviewers name "Jimmy two times".:D
One should not make fun of cultures they do not understand.
That being said, don't wear jeans when you go overseas either or they will think you are a crass, arrogant, American cowboy. :o

reincarnate

09-07-08, 05:33 PM

This one of the most remarkable mud-slinging threads from those trying to convince standard definition disc owners/collectors to replace their existing collections.
The doctored image distortions and false observations posted here are way over the top and show an absolute amount of desperation.

This gives credence to the surveys which find that people will lie if they think they can get away with it. Probably the same people who don't wash there hands after the bathroom. Both are disgusting behavior.

Contrary to the pure BS hatchet job presented here, Toshiba has no plans to license its XDE technology.
From Consumer Reports:

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/electronics/2008/08/toshibas-new-xd.html?resultPageIndex=1&resultIndex=1&searchTerm=xd-e500

People please stick to the facts and take the high road. This type of behavior hurts the credibility of AVS forum. Thank you :)

av.pallino

09-07-08, 05:51 PM

Right. And Toshiba had plans to call it quits in the high def format war. Right? Never confuse PR with reality. Also, IF Toshiba is licensing 3rd party technology for XDE, they may not be able to license it to others without a broader agreement.

Hey what do I know ;)

PFC5

09-07-08, 05:53 PM

PFC5. Are you a moderator over in the HIGHDEF forum? A bit far from home?

I was a member here before I was a member there. ;)

I didn't know I had to CHOOSE one forum or the other. :D ;)

PFC5

09-07-08, 06:07 PM

larrimore

09-07-08, 06:56 PM

Man, I am gone for a week and this thread gets hijacked by ill will. This stuff has little value here.

You either like this player or don't, but it is not our job to tell either that they are crazy or misinformed or worse just because they are on a different side of the view we have. Period.

That being said, as time has gone on, I like my BH200 more (even better than my Oppo) and the XDE a bit less. However, I am still in the camp that I like this player. I don't care a bit that it is not exactly what is on the disc, I like what it does.

I did go to Circuit City today to buy an external hard drive and return my XDE and the guy I bought it from (I have bought several things from him) said they are sold out of them and people have been coming in and asking specifically for them. So, I am sure the one I returned will be in someone's house tomorrow- it seems that Toshiba is actually marketing this one for a change. And, I will go on record as saying that the marketing is not at all misleading- thise saying that haven't visited a retailer and seen what others say about their upconverters.

Can we all get back to civility now?

ratbones

09-07-08, 07:09 PM

Going to CC this afternoon to pick it up hopefully it upconverts better than my A1.

jarthel

09-07-08, 07:43 PM

does anyone if this player can use 240V mains voltage? I'm from Australia and thinking of buying it from a US shop.

thank you

Steelheart1948

09-07-08, 08:14 PM

I don't want my speakers, my receiver, or my source components to editorialize. This is why I returned the XDE and kept the 981.

av.pallino

09-07-08, 09:02 PM

I don't want my speakers, my receiver, or my source components to editorialize. This is why I returned the XDE and kept the 981.

Your post is really strange, but XDE is post processing. what did you think going in? Sharpening, contrast and color enhancements. How do you think they happen?

It's amazing the kind of backlash this player is getting. LOL. It's basically a DVD player. Nothing more or less. I too prefer my BH 200, but having said that. I have no idea how the BH 200 did in the professional reviews. I never read one :)

J4yDubs

09-07-08, 09:45 PM

I don't want my speakers, my receiver, or my source components to editorialize. This is why I returned the XDE and kept the 981.

In that case, you should get rid of the 981 also. It's an up converter which, by thier very nature, change the source.

John

jarthel

09-07-08, 10:08 PM

In that case, you should get rid of the 981 also. It's an up converter which, by thier very nature, change the source.

John

or you could stick to a CRT TV :D

Ultimateherts

09-07-08, 10:11 PM

or you could stick to a CRT TV :D

And what's wrong with CRT? I own one!

J4yDubs

09-07-08, 10:21 PM

or you could stick to a CRT TV :D

Love my 57" RPTV CRT. :) I'd rather watch DVD at 1080i than 480p though. Even if that means "editorializing" the source. ;)

John

kbgl

09-07-08, 10:30 PM

I think it was reported that the sharpness and other features were unavailable in 720p. Not only are they available in 720p, they are also available in 480p if it is selected by using auto.

On component it only offers 480i, and none of the effects are available. 480p is not an option on component.

The XDE will put out a signal on both component and HDMI at the same time. This could be handy for multiple displays. Leave the setting on HDMI at any resolution, and component still works. It will of course be 480i on the component, while the HDMI setting can be set as desired.

monomer

09-08-08, 12:36 AM

You've missed the point entirely. What you should want to see is what the photographer intended the photo to look like, not a distorted version of it.
Unfortunately and oddly enough, I believe it is you who have missed the point... the point of this player... its not about what any person SHOULD WANT to see but rather they should chose to see it however it pleases them... (that's actually one big reason why they put many of the controls on consumer electronics in the first place... each one of us is part artist). Everyone has their own idea of what looks good to them and that's the way it should be... that is art, all art is purely subjective and never dictated (though that doesn't seem to stop some people from trying to). Josh, step outside of yourself for a moment and re-read your own statement above... need I really say anything more? And I don't believe posting photoshopped comparison pix to attempt to 'sell' one's point of view about this player is really appropriate here... if you wish to illustrate a point about the picture sharpening qualities vs artifacts of this player then at least USE ACTUAL PHOTOS OF SCENES PRODUCED BY THIS PLAYER.

I believe when attempting to evaluate the value of this player's sharpening abilities vs artifacts, it is very important to consider your viewing distance... I'd go so far as to say its the single most critical factor in judging image quality on any up-converting player and probably most especially with this player.

Too many people in this thread appear to be on some crusade or other... to you guys I say, "can it already", the only thing you are really trying to save/protect is your own ego.

btiltman

09-08-08, 12:45 AM

does anyone if this player can use 240V mains voltage? I'm from Australia and thinking of buying it from a US shop.

thank you

I think I read in this thread somewhere that it is very poor at doing PAL so you should check that out first!

elezzar

09-08-08, 02:24 AM

I really love my toshiba A3 for upconverting my dvds. Am I gonna see any difference in picture quality between my A3 and this new toshiba player?

av.pallino

09-08-08, 07:38 AM

One should not make fun of cultures they do not understand.
That being said, don't wear jeans when you go overseas either or they will think you are a crass, arrogant, American cowboy. :o

Obviously it was the translation that was off! If you didn't notice most sentences are repeated. It's not a cultural thing.

av.pallino

09-08-08, 07:41 AM

I really love my toshiba A3 for upconverting my dvds. Am I gonna see any difference in picture quality between my A3 and this new toshiba player?

It's going to be different. Whether you prefer it more is something you'll have to judge. But my guess would be that most people will like what the XDE does.

elezzar

09-08-08, 08:48 AM

It's going to be different. Whether you prefer it more is something you'll have to judge. But my guess would be that most people will like what the XDE does.

Thanks for the reply pallino. I was wondering about that since I'm trying to get a dedicated player just for dvd movies and leave the A3 for hddvd movies only.
I have so many dvds ( and planning to get more ) that this dvd player seems like a no branier for me. I was just asking 'cause I don't want to waste a 150 bucks for a player inferior to the a3 for upconverting dvds.

Goatse

09-08-08, 09:18 AM

Thanks for the reply pallino. I was wondering about that since I'm trying to get a dedicated player just for dvd movies and leave the A3 for hddvd movies only.
I have so many dvds ( and planning to get more ) that this dvd player seems like a no branier for me. I was just asking 'cause I don't want to waste a 150 bucks for a player inferior to the a3 for upconverting dvds.

Try it out and see for yourself. You can always return it, thats what I did. PQ wasn't bad but it wasn't great either, especially with lack of resume, hickups, dvdr issues and aspect problems it wasn't gonna replace the oppo.

av.pallino

09-08-08, 09:39 AM

Given that he uses an A3, the resume function is probably not a big deal. What is the DVR issue? you mean being able to play region encoded disks? I don't believe the A3 does that either!

So compared to an A3 I think it is safe to say operationally the XDE is superior since you don't lose anything you have with the A3.

As for image quality. The processing the XDE does is different from Oppo and other DVD players. It enhances the picture through selective sharpening. I have found this feature until now only in HTPC based software. I like it enough that I now watch all my movies via my HTPC. But the XDE will give you a similar result (except for 4:3 content where the XDE does not have an original aspect ratio option).

Overall, I would not keep an XDE because my current solution offers a similar outcome but with far more user controls. However, not everyone prefers to have an HTPC for their DVD playback. For them, the XDE is something worth looking at.

I wish Toshiba had used a slightly more powerful processor. It would have allowed for more user controls and perhaps had features like resume and keep original aspect ratio.

Amazingly, both of the later features are not complex r expensive to implement. Would have added at most $5 or so to the cost (if not less)!

dsmith901

09-08-08, 09:41 AM

Look, here's a photo of Cameron Diaz, a lovely lady to be sure:

http://www.mindspring.com/~lizap/diaz.jpg

The photo is a little soft. It looks like they defocused it intentionally, but it still looks nice overall. Would you agree with that?

Here's the same photo with too much edge enhancement applied:

http://www.mindspring.com/~lizap/diaz-edgy.jpg

Which version looks better to you? If you prefer the edge enhanced version, then I'm afraid we have no common ground. I think it makes her look terrifying. If you don't, well then there isn't much we can talk about. We just have very different perceptions of what good picture quality should be. So be it.

Now, I'm not saying that the edge enhancement in the XD-E500 is this bad. I'm merely using it to illustrate a point. Too much artificial sharpening is harmful to an image. Even though it may seem to draw out more detail that was harder to see before, the negative side effects (giving the picture an extremely edgy and unnatural appearance) outweigh the benefits. I'm sure the reality of what Cameron Diaz looks like in person falls somewhere between these two examples, but if I had to choose, I'd choose the softer photo.

If you can't agree with that, then that's all there is to this conversation. You're on one side and I'm on the other.

You are quick to be dismissive in your arguments, but consider this. The non-edge enhanced of Ms. Diaz is certainly more pleasing to the eye as I sit about 24" in front of my computer monitor - but if I move back just a few feet the non-enhanced picture begins to look soft and blurry and the enhanced picture begins to look very good and much higher in resolution. At the typical HDTV viewing distance of 8-10 feet the enhanced picture will definitely look better. Try it and you will see that you have just been hoisted by your own petard! :eek:

monomer

09-08-08, 12:29 PM

...The non-edge enhanced of Ms. Diaz is certainly more pleasing to the eye as I sit about 24" in front of my computer monitor - but if I move back just a few feet the non-enhanced picture begins to look soft and blurry and the enhanced picture begins to look very good and much higher in resolution. At the typical HDTV viewing distance of 8-10 feet the enhanced picture will definitely look better...
An excellent observation! (Also one should note that the XDE doesn't sharpen to the exaggerated degree of that photoshopped version example...) And from my own personal observation of the XDE's sharpening ability I'd say that at any viewing distance beyond 2.5X screen width the XDE is a definite hands-down winner... start getting closer and it becomes more of a personal judgement call due to the edge ringing of details.

Below is an actual example of the XDE's sharpening ability... I just copy-n-pasted it from the opening post of this thread (thanks to Goatse)... not sure why one pic is so much lighter than the other as that's not the player doing it ...also though Goatse doesn't state his viewing distance, I'm guessing it is more than 2.5X the screen width.

Sharpness off XDE

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s77/vsmextasy/DSCN0295.jpg

Sharpness

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s77/vsmextasy/DSCN0296.jpg

larrimore

09-08-08, 12:32 PM

cbacklund

09-08-08, 12:47 PM

Josh Z

09-08-08, 12:58 PM

For those of you who have this player, is anyone else seeing some odd picture problems on stationary still images? For example, FBI warning screens have this awful look to them. Kind of like aliasing, but much much worse. Once the menu or movie starts playing, there is no issue, so it seems to be something with stationary screens.

Has anyone else seen this?

When the player is paused, it freezes on a half-resolution interlaced field and scales that to fill the frame. This makes stationary images like menus look terrible. In motion, the problem goes away.

Josh Z

09-08-08, 01:09 PM

I have never been a big fan of the artsy fartsy effects some directors like to do on movies. The movie 300 is a perfect example. Many love that effect they did on it, but I do not. When I look at a movie, I want it to look like I am really there watching it in person. The only time I could imagine seeing something in person like that is WHILE they are performing eye surgery on me. :lol:

This is it in a nutshell. We have entirely different perceptions of what the point and purpose of the home theater hobby should be. I believe that our HT equipment should, to the best of its ability, faithfully represent the movie's original photography as shot by the director and cinematographer. You want your equipment to manipulate and alter the movie's photography to suit your own arbitrary standards for what looks "real" to you, any artistic intent of the filmmakers be damned.

If that's the way it is, so be it. We will not ever see eye to eye on this.

av.pallino

09-08-08, 01:11 PM

Which HTPC Software are you using? (not to hijack the thread, but it can't be worse than some of the talk going on in this thread).

I started out with open source stuff like ffdshow and SeeSaw. But now I use WinDVD9 Plus Blu Ray. Like I said, I prefer the HTPC for DVD since I can resize the image. So on a 60 inch screen from 9 ft, if the DVD is too soft I can size down to get a sharper image.

Also, WinDVD 9 implements Nvidia PureVideo and All2HD, both of which I like.

My HTPC is a Sony VGX-TP1 :)

So technically my BH 200 is a redundant player. But I always use the BH 200 for Blu Ray and on a full screen the BH 200 probably edges out the HTPC, but with the screen resizing, the HTPC is always near HD (or for my my HD all the time :))

Josh Z

09-08-08, 01:14 PM

You are quick to be dismissive in your arguments, but consider this. The non-edge enhanced of Ms. Diaz is certainly more pleasing to the eye as I sit about 24" in front of my computer monitor - but if I move back just a few feet the non-enhanced picture begins to look soft and blurry and the enhanced picture begins to look very good and much higher in resolution. At the typical HDTV viewing distance of 8-10 feet the enhanced picture will definitely look better. Try it and you will see that you have just been hoisted by your own petard! :eek:

Here I thought I was posting on a forum where people cared about maintaining good picture quality on a large HDTV screen. I guess all those people have fled the DVD Players forum.

Indeed, if you watch your movies on a 17" monitor from 10 feet away, you'll never see the artifacts this player adds to a movie picture.

larrimore

09-08-08, 02:11 PM

This is it in a nutshell. We have entirely different perceptions of what the point and purpose of the home theater hobby should be. I believe that our HT equipment should, to the best of its ability, faithfully represent the movie's original photography as shot by the director and cinematographer. You want your equipment to manipulate and alter the movie's photography to suit your own arbitrary standards for what looks "real" to you, any artistic intent of the filmmakers be damned.

If that's the way it is, so be it. We will not ever see eye to eye on this.

Josh

I think I said the same thing in my comments on this player, but I tended toward liking what this player does.
However, I doubt there will ever be agreement on which way is "correct". For example, is it what is on the disc (SD) or the BD or what was on the film which was seen in theaters? Or, to take it a step further, is it what is seen in the all digital theater from a hard drive, or what is seen in the theaters that still use film? Which is actually correct- all are different?

What if the XDE looks closer to me to what I saw in my all digital cinema, but sharper than the film version in the other theater I frequent? I only ask this because I recently watched the same movie in both theaters. First in the digital theater with my daughter and later with my wife and daughter in a theater that uses older equipment. They looked entorely different. Which is "correct"? I have no idea.

I doubt there will ever be agreement.

av.pallino

09-08-08, 02:23 PM

This is it in a nutshell. We have entirely different perceptions of what the point and purpose of the home theater hobby should be. I believe that our HT equipment should, to the best of its ability, faithfully represent the movie's original photography as shot by the director and cinematographer. You want your equipment to manipulate and alter the movie's photography to suit your own arbitrary standards for what looks "real" to you, any artistic intent of the filmmakers be damned.

If that's the way it is, so be it. We will not ever see eye to eye on this.

How does DVD 'accurately' capture the original photography as shot by the director? I wasn't aware movies were shot on DVD! On the one hand you say the Toshiba makes things look soft compared to other players, and then you say you like movies to look soft, then you say the Toshiba is ruining the movie with edge enhancement? How exactly do you know when looking at a DVD, what the original movie looked like? You don't! DVD is not transparent to the master. That is where you need to start your story.

av.pallino

09-08-08, 02:24 PM

Here I thought I was posting on a forum where people cared about maintaining good picture quality on a large HDTV screen. I guess all those people have fled the DVD Players forum.

Indeed, if you watch your movies on a 17" monitor from 10 feet away, you'll never see the artifacts this player adds to a movie picture.

If you're going to be so obnoxious, then you're better off staying away. Perhaps your friends are on bluray.com or somewhere where all the 'cool' people hang out? When you find them, let us know :)

OK we got it. You have a really really big screen. Most of us are watching on smaller screens. I have a 60 inch, 52 inch and 46 inch flat panel displays. My home ofice display is 22 inches. I watch the 60 inch from around 9 ft away, the 22 inch from around 24 inches away. Satisfied :)

LOL.

reincarnate

09-08-08, 03:04 PM

Sharpness off XDE

Deleted crap blurry picture

Sharpness

Deleted crap blurry picture

As I previously stated and Josh repeated: do not make any judgments about this player while in pause mode. The picture loses 50% of the horizontal lines or 50% of the vertical resolution.
If simulating VHS was the goal then you guys have succeeded.
Hopefully our guests are not laughing too much at our stupidity! :o

PooperScooper

09-08-08, 03:07 PM

Josh

I think I said the same thing in my comments on this player, but I tended toward liking what this player does.
However, I doubt there will ever be agreement on which way is "correct". For example, is it what is on the disc (SD) or the BD or what was on the film which was seen in theaters? Or, to take it a step further, is it what is seen in the all digital theater from a hard drive, or what is seen in the theaters that still use film? Which is actually correct- all are different?

What if the XDE looks closer to me to what I saw in my all digital cinema, but sharper than the film version in the other theater I frequent? I only ask this because I recently watched the same movie in both theaters. First in the digital theater with my daughter and later with my wife and daughter in a theater that uses older equipment. They looked entorely different. Which is "correct"? I have no idea.

I doubt there will ever be agreement.You can't assume what you saw in the theater is correct. Focus, print quality/age, etc could be off. Also, I don't know about you, but there's no way I can remember minute details like that for comparison. :) Or put another way, I can't trust my memory for things like this. Many times your memory remembers what you want it to remember.

For the "purists", which I'm one, we have to hope the encoders and disc producers follow the standards in place and put the most accurate image possible on disc. After that we try to buy the equipment we hope will reproduce what is on the digital master being presented to us via the disc and subsequent equipment chain. But this is only one point of view and a minority one.

If anybody likes what this player does - great. But don't get up tight when somebody points out it's flaws wrt accurate reproduction of a SD-DVD. There are ways to measure proper performance and it seems this player doesn't measure up.

larry

txfeinbergs

09-08-08, 03:21 PM

I am thinking of picking up one of these units at Circuit City today. Don't laugh, but can I assume that this upconverting DVD player is better than the XBOX-360 or PS3 at upconverting standard DVDs? (I have been using my game consoles as my standard definition DVD player). Of course I watch on Blu-Ray when available, but a lot of movies obviously aren't on Blu-Ray yet.

I know the XBOX-360 (actually I use the HD-DVD add on) has been knocked in the past for being a bad standard DVD player. Not sure about the PS3.

Thanks for any opinions you have here. Worst case, I can always return the unit if I don't think it is worth the money after playing with it.

acegamer

09-08-08, 03:48 PM

..

...Worst case, I can always return the unit if I don't think it is worth the money after playing with it.

That is the best thing for you to do right there. I have the PS3 and a Toshiba A35 that I have used for regular dvd playback before and I like the results from the E500 more. I have a 110" projection screen setup and I like the extra sharpness from the E500.

cbacklund

09-08-08, 03:50 PM

txfeinbergs

09-08-08, 03:58 PM

Thanks for the feedback guys. I will give it a shot.

av.pallino

09-08-08, 04:20 PM

You're just trying to be obstinate here, and it's becoming very tiring. I have expressed my opinion clearly, but you are going out of your way to misread what I've written and feign confusion. If you believe this somehow puts you in a stronger arguing position, you are wrong.

Let's just pretend for a second that there's a valid point buried somewhere in your rant. Say we have a DVD with a really bad transfer that is inaccurate to the photographic intention of the movie. How is it that you think adding edge enhancement to that bad transfer will make it more faithful?

It might make it more watchable. Of course, we disagree on what constitues more watchable here.

Don't get me wrong. I would love to see everything in HD. But the sad fact is that a lot of content I like to wach is only available on SD now.

I am being obstinate? All I am saying is that since DVD is already compromised from the original film, and was not intended for large screens. Some people may prefer some sort of post processing to 'enhance' the image.

I am not arguing whether the Toshiba is applying too much or too little edge enhancement. It well could be. But I too have found myself liking some sort of post processing on some content.

I find extreme software as bad as extreme edge enhancement. However, I'll take some edge enhancement to reduce softness if possible. Just as you preferred the less soft look of the Oppo over the Toshiba

jerryg25

09-08-08, 04:26 PM

Well i just got my 500 in via ups a couple hours ago and all i can say is wow. As i said in my early post i was just going to watch movies no test disk but i was so impressed by what i saw right out of the box i had to try them. I guess i got the first player that works right because it is spectacular. I own the Oppo 983 and the XA2 viewing on a Sony sxrd 1080p 50 inch tv about 9 feet away. I put the 500 in place of my 983 and did not have to change any adjusments at all. I put in the dve calibration disc and the settings were the same as the 983. I ran the various tests and was surprised how close it matched the 983 in pq. I tried in all modes and looked ok to me. I dont like the contrast mode much it lightens up scenes that should be dark too much. apersonnel preference i suppose. Then i put in the vrs tourcher test disk that came with the 983 and ran the rotating white line for jaggies with the sharp on and off and it looked really good. I looked at all the test that i looked at with both the 983 and the xa2 and it was as good as them. I watched several movies scenes on different disk and they were very good. I guess i got the best player sent out so far because i can not see all the problems that are being said about this player. From what i have viewed so far i would not have bought my 983 if i had seen this first, it is looking that good to me. I do not have any problem with 4:3 output because my tv lets me change aspect ratios and i can put it on that setting to get the original size. So far i am very impressed with this player and unless your tv has problems handling some outputs it is as good as advertised. I am just an average viewer and am not a videophile or audiophile so i dont stare at the picture to look for minor flaws i just watch the movie. This is one really fine player for the money. Granted the other players have alot more gagets to play with but i dont think anyone who just wants to watch movies with surround sound can not go wrong.

PFC5

09-08-08, 04:27 PM

You can't assume what you saw in the theater is correct. Focus, print quality/age, etc could be off. Also, I don't know about you, but there's no way I can remember minute details like that for comparison. :) Or put another way, I can't trust my memory for things like this. Many times your memory remembers what you want it to remember.

For the "purists", which I'm one, we have to hope the encoders and disc producers follow the standards in place and put the most accurate image possible on disc. After that we try to buy the equipment we hope will reproduce what is on the digital master being presented to us via the disc and subsequent equipment chain. But this is only one point of view and a minority one.

If anybody likes what this player does - great. But don't get up tight when somebody points out it's flaws wrt accurate reproduction of a SD-DVD. There are ways to measure proper performance and it seems this player doesn't measure up.

larry

I agree that what "purists" want, and what most people like are usually two different things. Neither is wrong IMO, because this is all subjective opinion anyway. With SD DVD we are not going to get what was in the theater, and it also depends on WHICH theater someone watches it in then also.

Just that fact alone means that we are all just guessing and ANY manipulation of what is on the disc deviates from should be against the "purist" "bylaws" (:D) and therefore they SHOULD be watching it on a studio grade monitor at 480p to get what is on the disc. In reality no one would do this so we are just left with subjective opinion, and it should be kept in that context when reading a review of all equipment especially SD equipment IMO.

I think it was very helpful (to me) that Josh posted this link of an example of what looks bad about the XDE player so i could discount his subjective opinion because it is different from mine on this link comparison he posted:

http://www.digital-digest.com/windvd9_all2hd.html

By doing this he framed his subjective opinion in such a way that I could tell we do not think the same thing about SD DVD improvements. How does it go? "A picture is worth a thousand words". :D

I think pro reviewers like himself do an injustice to SD material/devices when they try to compare them to HDM/devices. Reviewers that what to do that should just limit themselves to say that "This ain't no HD device/material", and limit it to that, or else why bother reviewing ANY SD devices/material at all? If they DO want to compare them all SD material will get a bad review and they should just say "don't buy anything SD anymore". ;)

Neither subjective opinion is correct IMO, since by it's nature it IS subjective.

larrimore

09-08-08, 04:30 PM

For the "purists", which I'm one, we have to hope the encoders and disc producers follow the standards in place and put the most accurate image possible on disc. After that we try to buy the equipment we hope will reproduce what is on the digital master being presented to us via the disc and subsequent equipment chain. But this is only one point of view and a minority one.

larry

larry-

Someone should have told you "hope" is not a strategy. :)

I would recommend against hoping for anything from the disc producers (especially SD DVD), unless we are dealing with Criterion, etc.

But, back to your comment: as I said early in this thread, this player does pleasing things that many may like unless they are a purist. I said it was pleasing like what I remembered about my digital theater- not that the theater is "correct".

Josh Z

09-08-08, 05:31 PM

I agree that what "purists" want, and what most people like are usually two different things. Neither is wrong IMO, because this is all subjective opinion anyway. With SD DVD we are not going to get what was in the theater, and it also depends on WHICH theater someone watches it in then also.

By that logic, anything that a DVD player does to a picture must be good, because there's bound to be somebody who will like it. If Toshiba's next DVD player tints all movies bright pink, well the "purists" may not care for it, but my neice will think it's the greatest thing ever.

Contrary to your claim, DVD player performance is not all subjective. There are numerous objective technical tests that are run to determine how accurately a DVD player renders the data on a DVD disc.

How much detail does it produce with all enhancements turned off?
(Answer: The XD-E500's picture is softer than comparable upconverting DVD players when the enhancements are turned off.)

How well does it deinterlace the video?
(Answer: Deinterlacing performace is quite mediocre. It does well with simple 3:2 cadence, but fails tests for video-based and mixed-source content.)

How much distortion do the enhancements add to the picture?
(Answer: All modes add a considerable amount of undesirable edge ringing. "Color" mode makes all movies look like a cartoon.)

Just that fact alone means that we are all just guessing and ANY manipulation of what is on the disc deviates from should be against the "purist" "bylaws"

As I've said before but people keep ignoring, a little bit of processing is not necessarily a bad thing. The problem is when too much processing is applied and adds unwanted artifacts to the image. The XD-E500 adds unwanted artifacts.

What we "purists" really want is for the DVD image to look as close to the original photography as the DVD format will allow. If a little bit of processing helps achieve that goal, we're all for it. But if the processing is excessive and adds artifacts (such as coating the image in edge ringing), we don't want it.

Steelheart1948

09-08-08, 06:51 PM

+1 Joshua

PFC5

09-08-08, 06:55 PM

By that logic, anything that a DVD player does to a picture must be good, because there's bound to be somebody who will like it. If Toshiba's next DVD player tints all movies bright pink, well the "purists" may not care for it, but my neice will think it's the greatest thing ever.

You are taking it to an extreme that is not based on reality IMO. It sounds more like a straw man argument like that Cameron Diaz extreme example you used earlier.

Contrary to your claim, DVD player performance is not all subjective. There are numerous objective technical tests that are run to determine how accurately a DVD player renders the data on a DVD disc.

I know there are objective tests, but I am curious how such tests will work out with 3D movies when someone comes out with a BD player that offers that. When a player works to subjectively "improve" the picture by using the way the eye works instead of measurements of a machine, I doubt they will fair well either with these machines. ;)

How much detail does it produce with all enhancements turned off?
(Answer: The XD-E500's picture is softer than comparable upconverting DVD players when the enhancements are turned off.)

And if ALL devices are "enhancing" all SD DVDs how do we know WHICH is more accurate to what is on the DISC? ;)

How well does it deinterlace the video?
(Answer: Deinterlacing performace is quite mediocre. It does well with simple 3:2 cadence, but fails tests for video-based and mixed-source content.)

Yes THIS IS relevant for me, but it seems nearly all players in the market have some issues unless you want to pay $400.00+ for a SD DVD player.

How much distortion do the enhancements add to the picture?
(Answer: All modes add a considerable amount of undesirable edge ringing. "Color" mode makes all movies look like a cartoon.)

I am not big on cartoonish pictures either, and I likely would not turn it on IF I bought a player, but that is NOT what example screenshot pics have shown, so I would likely have to see it for myself.

As I've said before but people keep ignoring, a little bit of processing is not necessarily a bad thing. The problem is when too much processing is applied and adds unwanted artifacts to the image. The XD-E500 adds unwanted artifacts.

What we "purists" really want is for the DVD image to look as close to the original photography as the DVD format will allow. If a little bit of processing helps achieve that goal, we're all for it. But if the processing is excessive and adds artifacts (such as coating the image in edge ringing), we don't want it.

But again "excessive" is a subjective point of view now isn't it? I remember before buying a HDTV a friend bought a CRT based RPTV, and at "normal" distances I didn't think it looked very good with SD material. When I went outside and viewed the PQ through his sliding glass doors 20' away), even SD looked amazing with my 20/13 vision. Go figure.

If this player "enhances" SD DVDs so at normal distances, it looks better for most people I think that is great for them. It appears that is what this player does, and since most people (besides forum dwellers) cannot afford (or unwilling to pay for that size) to buy the proper size display for their seating distance, I would say that this player fills that gap for them, and should be viewed in that light.

Again, comparing it to BD/HDM (or SD players costing 2-3x+ more) is the wrong way to do a pro review of this kind of player IMO. If you are going to do that, then just say "Like all SD players under $xxxx.xx this one sucks and you should just buy HDM & players". Then, IMO it would be a more open approach and save a lot of reading for everyone. ;)

Who do you write reviews for? The average consumer or the elitist consumer?

ti-triodes

09-08-08, 07:32 PM

I don't know it this has been discussed through all the arguing in this thread but there have been instances of defective units. A number people over in the Yahoo group who were complaining of mediocre PQ exchanged their units and reported much better results.

Perhaps Toshiba's QC has not been too good on these early units?

reincarnate

09-08-08, 07:34 PM

reincarnate

09-08-08, 07:54 PM

Josh,
I almost forgot to ask but when was the last time your web sites and the Home Theater magazine you write for, reviewed ANY common DVD players?
I see high definition players reviewed constantly. So why all the sudden immense interest in this inexpensive Toshiba? Is there something very important going on here that I just don't understand? :(

To me its just a no-brainer purchase to obtain unique and SOTA 24p playback. Something so simple, yet so complicated :confused:

Lastly could you put your affiliations back-on your posts as I wanted to reference them too. Thank you! :)

lexicon1

09-08-08, 11:06 PM

jarthel

09-08-08, 11:47 PM

I was quite active in audiophile (mostly DIY amps) and it seems the same argument all over again. hahahhahaha

Is there a such as right or wrong when it comes to something as video? It's not like some snake-oil product I regularly see in audio forums (audioasylum and etc).

jarthel

09-08-08, 11:49 PM

during film/tv show editing, don't the studio messes up the original video as well to make it look good? if you want gold standard, try to get hold of the master copies. no editing/post-processing at all.

Star56

09-09-08, 03:07 AM

ratbones

09-09-08, 04:58 AM

I'm sold a great up-converter!

PooperScooper

09-09-08, 07:22 AM

Boys , Boys, Boys....
Larrimore hit the nail on the head.
NONE of you know what your gold standard is.....because you have never seen the gold standard. Is it the movie theatre ? Is it the screen the director looks thru while he is filming the movie ?
Does the film editor know what the picture is supposed to look like while he cuts scenes out?
As mentioned in a previous post, I come from the audio area and I guarantee you, no one there knows what the Original songs sounded like.
I am sure you have tone controls on your audio set up-is it allowed to tweak them? Some of you have bloated subwoofers and love the sound.
Some of you think your bass should punch you in the chest. BUT, does that mean it is felt in the back seat of a stadium or the front seat of a concert hall? Which is "right"
Uh, what is the gold standard ?
Bottom line, adjust your screen so they are pleasing to each of you and screw the rest of those that you have somehow given the authority to tell you what the hell you should be admiring in a picture. Dont let those blow-hard "purists tell you what you need to like.
Dont let those wine snobs tell you what you shouldnt or should be drinking .Drink what you like to drink.
Watch your pix the way you choose.
Great entertainment reading these posts.
What a great thread
Nobody here, that I've seen, is telling anybody what to like. Personal preferences are never wrong. What some people are trying to tell folks is that this player does not reproduce what's on the disc as well as some other players. The disc is the closest thing we have to the real source. If it's not very good - more the norm than not - then we're out of luck. Changing what's on the disc doesn't get closer to the source but it might get closer to somebody's preference. When a disc is mastered well, this player will not reproduce it as well as other players. It can't. The Zoran video processor is subpar compared to some other video processors.

larry

londor

09-09-08, 07:28 AM

My first dvd player was a Toshiba SD-K741. My dad got me as a gift at Costco about 5 or so years ago. After much use I realized there wasnt anything I disliked about it. Thats surprising since I didnt choose the brand/model since it was a gift.
The remote was small and buttons laid out that made mistakes rare.
The disc tray was solid. I had an early cd-rom player eat a disc so I know this is a critical design point. It was built well.
What i really liked though was hit Stop and I could go to the bathroom,go to the store, leave town for 6 months even. It would start playing right where i left it. Yea a resume feature. But it was getting tired...

So a few months ago I went to get a new player. With the confidence Toshiba had instilled in me I didnt do any reviewing like I always do.
So i bought a SD-6100 upconverting player. Wooh this is gonna be nice.
Right? uh well only for Toshibas profiteering wizards.
The HUGE remote with frequently used buttons placed all over sucks. (I use the one from my old player now)
The disc tray advertised this was made as crappy as Toshiba could.
I mean it doesnt even try to fake looking like quality was bottomed out.
It looks and performs like CRAP.
I hit the OPEN button on the player.. hmm didnt open. hit it again. press hard. Ok there it goes.
But not to worry! a few weeks later and the disc tray would start closing by itself. Yay! There goes my $20 dvd mauled by the disc tray.

Good stuff!!
It wouldnt matter if this blah blah player did the dishes and my laundry.
Toshiba is CRAP. They got me on this player but lost a customer forever.
Brilliant business model Toshiba.

How is it that a player 5+ years old has a resume feature and this new one doesnt? I find that to be scandolous. But glaringly obvious of lets build it CHEAP CHEAP.
My sisters LG player- i took the disc OUT of the player and put it back in and it resumed where it was!!!! I couldnt believe it.
Maybe she will sell it to me..

acegamer

09-09-08, 07:54 AM

....
Bottom line, adjust your screen so they are pleasing to each of you and screw the rest of those that you have somehow given the authority to tell you what the hell you should be admiring in a picture. Dont let those blow-hard "purists tell you what you need to like....

Exactly. As long as was what you see on the screen is pleasing to your eye nothing else matters. It's interesting to read all of the posts of people trying to convince others that what they see as a negative or positive for this player should also apply to everyone else. The bottom line is that each of us knows what we like and what we don't like. Very interesting discussions going on here, but I really hope that no one on either side of the debate group actually thinks that they have any shot of "winning" the argument.

lujan

09-09-08, 08:43 AM

...

So a few months ago I went to get a new player. With the confidence Toshiba had instilled in me I didnt do any reviewing like I always do.
So i bought a SD-6100 upconverting player. Wooh this is gonna be nice.
Right? uh well only for Toshibas profiteering wizards.
The HUGE remote with frequently used buttons placed all over sucks. (I use the one from my old player now)
The disc tray advertised this was made as crappy as Toshiba could.
I mean it doesnt even try to fake looking like quality was bottomed out.
It looks and performs like CRAP.
I hit the OPEN button on the player.. hmm didnt open. hit it again. press hard. Ok there it goes.
But not to worry! a few weeks later and the disc tray would start closing by itself. Yay! There goes my $20 dvd mauled by the disc tray.

...

That's strange, I think you just got a lemon. Every Toshiba I've purchased has worked fine. Only the Zenith (now LG) was a piece of crap for me. It only lasted about one year and then gave out.

lexicon1

09-09-08, 09:57 AM

\
\ What some people are trying to tell folks is that this player does not reproduce what's on the disc as well as some other players. The disc is the closest thing we have to the real source. If it's not very good - more the norm than not - then we're out of luck. Changing what's on the disc doesn't get closer to the source but it might get closer to somebody's preference. When a disc is mastered well, this player will not reproduce it as well as other players. It can't. The Zoran video processor is subpar compared to some other video processors.

larry
Pooper,
The picture from SD IS the real source.
The picture from BluRay IS the real source.
The picture from HD IS the real source.
Many PREFER HD or BluRay. Which is more real ?

The XDE is an attempt by Toshiba to "enhance" the picture characteristics in such a way that "many" people like it.
Some think it approaches or is closer to a BluRay or HD than traditional SD.

Uh, what happens when a Next Generation Player does a better job than BluRay or HD........, will people say it is more real than BluRay or HD?
Ultimately, some of you will bash the new format or what it does.

Regarding the Zoran chip, I assume they picked a chip which did the job they intended. Why put a V8 in a small car when a 4 cylinder engine will get you to your destination (assuming that is ALL that is important to you).
To bash the Zoran chip because it is a Zoran doesent make sense. Toshiba could have picked any chip, but the Zoran did what they intended on this player.

kbgl

09-09-08, 10:00 AM

Nobody here, that I've seen, is telling anybody what to like. Personal preferences are never wrong. What some people are trying to tell folks is that this player does not reproduce what's on the disc as well as some other players. The disc is the closest thing we have to the real source. If it's not very good - more the norm than not - then we're out of luck. Changing what's on the disc doesn't get closer to the source but it might get closer to somebody's preference. When a disc is mastered well, this player will not reproduce it as well as other players. It can't. The Zoran video processor is subpar compared to some other video processors.

larry

Larry. Have you actually seen this player? Your a MOD right, but are you stating it's less than stellar without even seeing it personally?

Josh Z

09-09-08, 10:30 AM

But again "excessive" is a subjective point of view now isn't it?

No. You can measure how much ringing the player adds to the image. The XD-E500 adds a lot more ringing than comparable upconverting DVD players.

Edge ringing is always a bad thing. Edge ringing is an unnatural electronic artifact that does not belong in a video image. You may think that ringing "enhances" detail by making the picture sharper, but in fact it destroys detail by overlapping on top of real picture information. The more ringing you add, the more detail you obscure. The larger your screen, the more obvious this will be to you.

Who do you write reviews for? The average consumer or the elitist consumer?

I write for consumers who care about maintaining the best picture quality possible on a large home theater screen. If you don't fall into that category, I have to wonder why you're posting on AVSForum.

PooperScooper

09-09-08, 11:07 AM

Larry. Have you actually seen this player? Your a MOD right, but are you stating it's less than stellar without even seeing it personally? It has a Zoran deinterlacer, it's capabilities are already known.

The other thing I forgot to mention. Many people don't know what some of the video problems look like that some players produce or can't filter out. That can be a good thing. :) I didn't know about EE, CUE, ICP and other things until I came here.

larry

PooperScooper

09-09-08, 11:23 AM

\

Pooper,
The picture from SD IS the real source.
The picture from BluRay IS the real source.
The picture from HD IS the real source.
Many PREFER HD or BluRay. Which is more real ?
You're saying what I did. I was replying to you saying the film or what the director saw is the source.

The XDE is an attempt by Toshiba to "enhance" the picture characteristics in such a way that "many" people like it.
Some think it approaches or is closer to a BluRay or HD than traditional SD. That's fine if you don't mind modifying video bits and guessing what looks better. I have no problem with that. If people like it that's all that matters. It goes back to what I said earlier. With no common understood criteria for measurement, what's good to one may be bad for somebody else. It's all subjective. Video performance can be measured.

Uh, what happens when a Next Generation Player does a better job than BluRay or HD........, will people say it is more real than BluRay or HD?
Ultimately, some of you will bash the new format or what it does.Next gen SD player? Or next gen format? If the former, nothing can be done to make a 720x480 source look like a 1920x1080 source made from the same master with proper encoding.

Regarding the Zoran chip, I assume they picked a chip which did the job they intended. Why put a V8 in a small car when a 4 cylinder engine will get you to your destination (assuming that is ALL that is important to you).
To bash the Zoran chip because it is a Zoran doesent make sense. Toshiba could have picked any chip, but the Zoran did what they intended on this player. They picked the chip because it was the right price point. Otherwise, no player would have ever been made without the older Faroudja or Silicon Image deinterlacers years ago or now the ABT or Silicon Optix solutions.

larry

Deja Vu

09-09-08, 11:35 AM

Boys , Boys, Boys....
Larrimore hit the nail on the head.
NONE of you know what your gold standard is.....because you have never seen the gold standard. Is it the movie theatre ? Is it the screen the director looks thru while he is filming the movie ?
Does the film editor know what the picture is supposed to look like while he cuts scenes out?
As mentioned in a previous post, I come from the audio area and I guarantee you, no one there knows what the Original songs sounded like.
I am sure you have tone controls on your audio set up-is it allowed to tweak them? Some of you have bloated subwoofers and love the sound.
Some of you think your bass should punch you in the chest. BUT, does that mean it is felt in the back seat of a stadium or the front seat of a concert hall? Which is "right"
Uh, what is the gold standard ?
Bottom line, adjust your screen so they are pleasing to each of you and screw the rest of those that you have somehow given the authority to tell you what the hell you should be admiring in a picture. Dont let those blow-hard "purists tell you what you need to like.
Dont let those wine snobs tell you what you shouldnt or should be drinking .Drink what you like to drink.
Watch your pix the way you choose.
Great entertainment reading these posts.
What a great thread

Yup! This post is pretty much right on the money I'd say. The so-called purists are no more than religious fanatics, IMO - we're right and everyone who doesn't agree is wrong and goes to hell to watch DVDs on an XDE player for eternity. :D

kbgl

09-09-08, 12:09 PM

So... sight unseen, you have an opinion on its picture quality.

Does this Zoran deinterlacer ruin the 1080i output too? No need to deinterlace for a 1080i signal is there?

Could the improvement from 24fps possibly outweigh the deinterlacers shortcomings?

It has a Zoran deinterlacer, it's capabilities are already known.

The other thing I forgot to mention. Many people don't know what some of the video problems look like that some players produce or can't filter out. That can be a good thing. :) I didn't know about EE, CUE, ICP and other things until I came here.

larry

larrimore

09-09-08, 12:16 PM

It sounds more and more like the political parties and less and less like AVS. :)

That being said, even though I like this player, I have also been a purist for most of my time in this hobby. It all started when I bought the Video Essentials Laser Disc and continued on. I still remember the part about sharpness that went something like "reduce the sharpness to its lowest point and leave it there." "It may look soft and blurry for awhile, but you'll get used to it and start seeing more detail later."

I still live by that for the most part. However, I did connect this player and I do like what it does. Why does that make any of us a target?

briankmonkey

09-09-08, 12:42 PM

Video

http://www.avforums.com/tv/index.php?videoid=62

"Phil Hinton brings us his last report from the IFA show floor. We take a look at the XDE DVD player from Toshiba, Samsung's world first TVs and their new BD-P2500 Blu-ray player, and finish with the PG7000 plasma from LG as well as a new projector and Blu-ray player from the company"

monomer

09-09-08, 12:44 PM

Larry. Have you actually seen this player? Your a MOD right, but are you stating it's less than stellar without even seeing it personally?
If you read carefully you will see there seems to be several people on both sides of some argument about what it is we are suppose to like or not like about this player that have yet to even see one of these players in action. It would be nice if it were possible to limit an owner's thread to JUST OWNERS of the player being discussed and those people truly interested in asking questions from those who've actually purchased the player in question. Its just plain nutz what going on in this thread... I feel sorry for those readers who are actually trying to learn something about this player, all they are getting out of reading this thread is mostly esoteric philosophical rants about what everyone should want to prefer when watching a movie and then get to see comparison pictures that were NOT taken from this player... this thread's fast becoming an ego-fest and nothing more.

PFC5

09-09-08, 01:34 PM

No. You can measure how much ringing the player adds to the image. The XD-E500 adds a lot more ringing than comparable upconverting DVD players.

You used the term "excessive" which I stated is relative to each individual viewing it, but that means all devices do this as an implication.

Ok. You can measure it. Care to provide these measurements? Tell me the measurement for the XDE ringing in an absolute measurement, and the absolute measurement for the ringing with the comparably street priced Oppo please. Are you using a metric measurement or English measurement? :D

Edge ringing is always a bad thing. Edge ringing is an unnatural electronic artifact that does not belong in a video image. You may think that ringing "enhances" detail by making the picture sharper, but in fact it destroys detail by overlapping on top of real picture information. The more ringing you add, the more detail you obscure. The larger your screen, the more obvious this will be to you.

Believe it or not I DO understand this, but if the picture is so blurry that such overlapping detail cannot be seen then so what it it makes what you CAN see seem sharper?

I write for consumers who care about maintaining the best picture quality possible on a large home theater screen. If you don't fall into that category, I have to wonder why you're posting on AVSForum.

I have a 50" Panasonic 1080p plasma viewed at 8.5 feet with 20/13 vision. ;) With my vision that would be the equivalent of approximately a 68" screen from 8,5 feet away. Does that meet YOUR criteria for YOU to allow me to post here?

It is exactly this kind of BS statement that really bugs me about this site. Can we get a ruling from the Mods that AVS is not for average folks looking to learn more about all this stuff and that AVS is just for the elitists like Josh here?

I am sure 90% of the people who come here or post here are average people and will be offended by such a statement. I know I was.

av.pallino

09-09-08, 01:38 PM

No. You can measure how much ringing the player adds to the image. The XD-E500 adds a lot more ringing than comparable upconverting DVD players.

Edge ringing is always a bad thing. Edge ringing is an unnatural electronic artifact that does not belong in a video image. You may think that ringing "enhances" detail by making the picture sharper, but in fact it destroys detail by overlapping on top of real picture information. The more ringing you add, the more detail you obscure. The larger your screen, the more obvious this will be to you.

I write for consumers who care about maintaining the best picture quality possible on a large home theater screen. If you don't fall into that category, I have to wonder why you're posting on AVSForum.

Science as I see it is the application of technology to solve a specific problem. However, not everyone has to buy into that direction. Different technologies appeal to different people. So, AV Science forum does not have to appeal to only one type of person. For instance if I came up with technology that made youtube video look DVD like, would it be fair to discuss it here. Sure!

I find it strange that we put enthusiasts or what science means into a box that we create. The real world just does not work that way.

The message is clear. IF if are against artificial sharpening, then the XDE is not for you. The whole premise behind enhancement is to 'improve' visually what was encoded on the DVD. IF you already like the way DVD looks, why would you want an XDE player in the first place?

Am I missing some important insight or logic here?

Doug G

09-09-08, 01:39 PM

I've been sitting on the sidelines for a while since posting my initial impressions of this player and couple follow ups but after reading all the hoopla I had to make a few comments.

I certainly know what excessive edge ringing looks like and I just don't see it. Several other people who've evaluated on large (>100") screens also agree. Interesting that there seem to be reports of "bad" units. I tried to find these reports on Yahoo but not only was the forum impossible to find, but when I did find a seemingly relevant one you can't even read the posts without being a member?! (wtf?) Exactly why I don't use "Yoohoo" for anything anymore.....

As for the player in non-sharp mode being the "softest" as compared with several other players, if you've spent the effort to produce an "intelligent" sharpening solution, why would you want any sharpening filters enabled in the decoder at all? You wouldn't. What you'd want is the raw material to achieve the best result. Other players, even those with sharpness controls, likely employ some pre-filtering for sharpness to maintain a minimum level of performance in this area. Toshiba doesn't need to do this since not only would it increase error in their XDE algorithm, but most won't ever run the player without the feature enabled. (If they would, why did they just spend 2-3x what another decent upconverter costs?)

As other have mentioned, many DVDs already contain ringing or excessive sharpening on the disc! Spider-man is a great example of this. Go to the chapter at the end of the movie when they're at the cemetery - the amount of ringing around some of the dark overcoats against the overcast sky is truly disgusting. In particular, the Goblins son (can't remember his name) in the scene just before he leaves. This ringing appeared even with sharpness mode turned off. It was just as visible. Sorry, not an XDE artifact. SD DVD has its limitations but some seem unwilling to consider this when commenting on the resulting PQ with XDE enabled. Alchemy anyone?

The photo used by that German publication, IMO, was already over sharpened (and overly contrasty) to begin with so of course any further sharpening, no matter how intelligent, is going to make it look worse. That said, I don't think it was nearly as bad as they made it out to be. So even if it was actual video (and not still frame) its not a very good comparison. That test was clearly designed to see how well a player maintained those picture characteristics, not enhance them.

The comments by that guy from the Eurpoean electronics show were far too harsh. Odd that the demo seemed to be less than optimal. Maybe they had displays that didn't support 24fps mode? PQ settings not properly calibrated on the displays? Silly, I know. If the player were outputting 60p (or forbid 60i) than some judder would be evident, although I'm not sure this could be confused with dropping frames (or maybe it could be to an inexperienced viewer.) Overall I found the comments so negative and diametrically opposed to my own experience that I'm discounting them entirely. Begs the question behind the motivation for such a ripping review, though.

Regarding some comments that the colors appear "cartoonish" in Color mode, I don't see this at all. I think the Color mode does a fairly good job of approximating the HD color space and giving some hues extra "pop" while not affecting skin tones or overtly tinting neutral shades. I leave my player in Color mode quite happily. Most consumer displays should not be run at the settings determined thru the color bar patterns since they don't have NTSC compliant color decoders. Because of the over-aggresive saturations and color push, I've backed off the color control on both my Elite RPTV and RS1x so that flesh tones look natural while still retaining good overall color. At this setting, the saturation level using the color bars appear incorrectly set. Funny, however, that the Color mode restored the blue color bars to their perfect balance. This achieves the result of brilliantly colored greens and blues, not "cartooniosh" IMO, while still retaining natural looking warm tones like yellows and reds. Very effective enhancement, IMO.

MPEG-2 decoders/deinterlacers for DVD applications are a commodity item now, like it or not. Sure that means they lack some high end features, but it also means they achieve 90% of the reference performance goals for a substantially lower price point than that same performance would have cost only a few years ago. But that's what happens when technology fully matures. The PQ from the component output, and especially the S-video output, of the XDE is visibly better than my trusty old Panny RP91 which was one of the first players to use 10-bit 54Mhz output and has a top notch MPEG decoder and discrete analog output section that was considered reference quality for many years, not to mention nearly 4x as expensive as an XD-E500 when new. But technology improves continually and as it becomes more mainstream, designing it into SoC ASICs to replace all those discrete components simply reduces costs even further. Sure the Zoran deinterlacer is a flag reader, but its performance is certainly acceptable with properly flagged DVDs and these are the rule and not the exception today. Video material is where all the effort in properly deinterlacing goes! But it also adds substantial complexity and cost. Those looking for top notch video deinterlacing have other options in the marketplace. But that's not who makers of commodity electronics (e.g. mass-produced DVD players) market or price their products to. Right or wrong, commodity products are designed for the masses, not the "enthusiast" crowd no matter how desirable the features or performance they want may be. But there are also manufacturers that cater to that same enthusiast crowd. Because those products exist doesn't make "mainstream" products bad. Toshiba built a basic, cost-sensitive product that still includes desirable features like 24fps, raises the bar on upconversion with XDE technology, and allows folks to continue enjoying and buying regular DVDs, a technology in which they have a vested interest. Now that's good business, not like trying to force technology down peoples throats. Yet there are many who seem to have an axe to grind that this business strategy somehow holds back their "Blu-ray dreams". While it may have some impact, the far greater concern for them should be that immature, overpriced products with a severely limited availability of software may just turn out to be unviable in these days of economic stagnation and soaring energy and food prices, no matter how admittedly superior the performance is.

In closing, none of us who find this players features very effective have ever said it was or represented it as a "Blu-Ray killer", never mind a viable alternative to HD. We've merely stated we find it does a very nice job, not without some faults, of making existing DVDs look very, very good. Yet some still seem to have an axe to grind and continually return to bash or even give appearances of willful misrepresentation of its capabilities. Heck, I fully concede that any HD medium done properly will look and sound significantly better than any post-processed SD DVD but that doesn't make Blu-ray any more viable a product for me than it already isn't. So I'll continue buying and renting DVDs and enjoying them on my XD-E500, probably for several years to come, as will many others. And Toshiba knows this. Even if their decision were partially rooted in some kind of sour grapes, if they can still make a decent business in yesterdays technology, who's to say they shouldn't? Amazing how some feel Toshiba should be required to carry the Blu-ray torch after the HD-DVD defeat rather than fully exercise their corporate right to choose whatever path they like including fully exploiting their interest in DVD. If they can also get a two-fer of sticking it to Blu-ray, even for a short while, than I'm sure they see that as a bonus. (Before you ask, no I have never been nor am I now an owner of any kind of HD technology other than a simple OTA HD receiver so hopefully that makes me as unbiased as is humanly possible in this matter! ;) )

To others reading this thread and thinking about trying one of these, I say don't be discouraged by all the naysayers - by all means go buy one for yourself and find out! I don't think you'll be disappointed!

kbgl

09-09-08, 01:46 PM

Excellent post Doug G

There are ways to measure proper performance and it seems this player doesn't measure up.

larry

So... Are you saying that you have seen measurements for the XDE?

Could you give us a link to them?

I thought not.

dazzerxxx

09-09-08, 02:14 PM

Excellent post Doug G

So... Are you saying that you have seen measurements for the XDE?

Could you give us a link to them?

I thought not.

This review is a little more indepth (although only an initial test) than most and includes some objective test material and images of the results.

http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hdtv-praxis.de%2Fmodules.php%3Fop%3Dmodload%26name%3DPagEd%26file %3Dindex%26topic_id%3D2%26page_id%3D554&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=de&tl=en

D

av.pallino

09-09-08, 02:26 PM

This review is a little more indepth (although only an initial test) than most and includes some objective test material and images of the results.

http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hdtv-praxis.de%2Fmodules.php%3Fop%3Dmodload%26name%3DPagEd%26file %3Dindex%26topic_id%3D2%26page_id%3D554&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=de&tl=en

D

The reviewer was images on pause. Perhaps he was unaware that the player removes half the resolution on pause and hence the extra artifacts. Also, some of the artifacts like the menu options and other text based content is to be expected on any product of this kind. The enhancements are designed for movie/film like content. Not for reading text.

Overall, a combination of:

1. Used paused mode to illustrate artifacts

2. Using text type images to show artifacts

Makes me believe the reviewer was looking for a reason to fail the player. I have watched several parts of movies on the XDE now and I have never found the image to look as obviously flawed as on these supposed screen captures. For me, that is perhaps the most frustrating part. Where my own experience with this player and this type of technology is so different from what a few are reporting.

briankmonkey

09-09-08, 02:29 PM

av.pallino

09-09-08, 02:47 PM

Funky tearing artifacts. I've seen similar when using interpolation on high settings on 120hz sets during some content.. Just read the conclusion as well, not very favorable.
http://www.hdtv-praxis.de/tests/DVD_Player2008/XDE/progressive2.jpg

par for the course. You can always get others to do your dirty job for you :)

IF the end result looked anything even close to this in real life, not one person in this world would buy this product! Who in their right mind would buy a product that shows double lines for everything.

My suspicions fall on the usual culprits here of the other optical disk based format. But when you go this far, you kinda lose credibility ;)

These images are very close to being deceptive. The purpose is not to review the product, but to show it in poor light. Nothing I have seen even comes close to these images here.

dazzerxxx

09-09-08, 02:47 PM

The reviewer was images on pause.

Does it state in the review that the deintelacing test images are paused (I know the fuit images are paused as can been seen on screen) for the deinteralcing test ?

Maybe an email to the review site will clear it up.

D

dazzerxxx

09-09-08, 02:54 PM

My suspicions fall on the usual culprits here of the other optical disk based format. But when you go this far, you kinda lose credibility ;)

Interestingly Phil Hinton comments based on the IFA event in the video posted above were followed up with the comment below. Looks like marketing/spin is at play all around....

I have to say that when upscaling and video processing is done right on a DVD deck, then it can be an excellent addition to your system.
However what you have to keep in your minds after my video rant, is that all I had to go on was what Toshiba were showing us on a show floor. The units were locked away so I couldn't get my hands on and check anything for myself.

But going on their PR hype, which was constant, and what I was also seeing on screen and examining in detail, the results were insulting to anyone who expects a picture with very little artificial artefacts, edge enhancement, colour bleed or cadenece error (or FRC errors.) With what Toshiba were demonstrating on this machine and the garbage of the PR material, I couldn't do anything but tell you guys exactly what I was seeing and giving it to you honestly along with my opinion (for what that's worth).

It was also quite interesting exchanging notes after I had filmed our piece with other UK press who were there, and at a further event a few days after IFA. Almost everyone of them were mentioning they had seen the issues, that I describe in my video piece.

So in context of what I was reporting, it was that the XDE player looked bad on the stand, it was clearly adding in artefacts and the PR being pushed was claiming it was better than HD. On what was seen on the show floor along with their PR nonsense I couldn't honestly describe it anything but a disaster in hype over substance.

However, as I always stress, the real proof will be in testing and evaluation of a production sample for review, which I intend on doing soon. It may be, as is the case with most products shown in a public show, that everything is turned on to maximum. It may be that there are some good points to be found and that the player can be set up to provide a half decent image. But one thing I won't be taking on board is the silly PR nonsense, which looks to have claimed some victims already.

D

briankmonkey

09-09-08, 02:56 PM

Thanks dazzerxxx, I couldn't check out the audio at work so you saved me a rewatch tonight.

par for the course. You can always get others to do your dirty job for you :)

IF the end result looked anything even close to this in real life, not one person in this world would buy this product! Who in their right mind would buy a product that shows double lines for everything.

My suspicions fall on the usual culprits here of the other optical disk based format. But when you go this far, you kinda lose credibility ;)

These images are very close to being deceptive. The purpose is not to review the product, but to show it in poor light. Nothing I have seen even comes close to these images here.

What other examples from this person to back up your claims of "Par for the course"?

Josh Z

09-09-08, 02:58 PM

You used the term "excessive" which I stated is relative to each individual viewing it, but that means all devices do this as an implication.

It means that devices that employ electronic sharpening filters will add ringing. Ringing is a side effect of electronic sharpening.

Not all DVD players add ringing, because not all DVD players add artificial sharpening.

Believe it or not I DO understand this, but if the picture is so blurry that such overlapping detail cannot be seen then so what it it makes what you CAN see seem sharper?

But the picture is not really "sharper". It's just edgier. The edginess only makes it seem superficially sharper if you're viewing on a small screen and don't know what to look for. The larger the viewing screen, the more the electronic halos surrounding edges in the frame stand out.

Go back to that over-sharpened photo of Cameron Diaz. Look at the bright halo around the top of her dress. Look at the halo around her shoulder. Neither of those are present in the unsharpened photo.

http://www.mindspring.com/~lizap/diaz-edgy.jpg

You've been arguing that you want movies to look more "real". When was the last time you looked at someone in real life and saw a bright halo around their shoulder or clothes?

Look also at her hair and especially her eyelashes. Do you notice how what were once well made-up eyelashes are now scary tarantula eyes? The detail is so small that you can't make out each individual halo, but they add an unnatural highlight to each lash that shouldn't be there.

You're not actually seeing a sharper picture. You're just seeing an edgier one.

The same type of unnatural highlights are present in the "All2HD" comparison that was posted previously.

I have a 50" Panasonic 1080p plasma viewed at 8.5 feet with 20/13 vision. ;) With my vision that would be the equivalent of approximately a 68" screen from 8,5 feet away. Does that meet YOUR criteria for YOU to allow me to post here?

It's not your equipment that I take issue with. It's your "I don't want to learn" attitude.

It is exactly this kind of BS statement that really bugs me about this site. Can we get a ruling from the Mods that AVS is not for average folks looking to learn more about all this stuff and that AVS is just for the elitists like Josh here?

I am sure 90% of the people who come here or post here are average people and will be offended by such a statement. I know I was.

You've already made it clear that you're not here to "learn" anything. You've already decided that you know everything you need to know, and people more experienced and knowlegable about the subject than yourself can shove off.

av.pallino

09-09-08, 03:02 PM

Thanks dazzerxxx, I couldn't check out the audio at work so you saved me a rewatch tonight.

What other examples from this person to back up your claims of "Par for the course"?

Toshiba never claimed that XDE was better than HD as Phil Hinton claims! He is clearly setting up a strawman and then beating up on it. I'd say that is par for the course. If anything, that paragraph shows he was predisposed to disliking the Toshiba. What more do we want. I also have my own experience to go by. Which 'actually' leads me to question his motives more than anything else!

dazzerxxx

09-09-08, 03:08 PM

briankmonkey

09-09-08, 03:09 PM

Toshiba never claimed that XDE was better than HD as Phil Hinton claims! He is clearly setting up a strawman and then beating up on it. I'd say that is par for the course. If anything, that paragraph shows he was predisposed to disliking the Toshiba. What more do we want. I also have my own experience to go by. Which 'actually' leads me to question his motives more than anything else!

You didn't quote that when you said "Par for the course", you quoted me when I had posted a picture from an entirely different article from HDTV Praxis. Was that simply another mistake or do you have an answer in regards to the post you actually quoted?

In regards to that article with Phil Hinton it shows he didn't agree with Toshiba's hype at the event. Did you attend that event and follow him around so you know exactly what they may or may not have said in his presence?

He has his experiences just like you have yours, if he knew you and cared he could just as easily question your motivation.

av.pallino

09-09-08, 03:17 PM

It means that devices that employ electronic sharpening filters will add ringing. Ringing is a side effect of electronic sharpening.

Not all DVD players add ringing, because not all DVD players add artificial sharpening.

But the picture is not really "sharper". It's just edgier. The edginess only makes it seem superficially sharper if you're viewing on a small screen and don't know what to look for. The larger the viewing screen, the more the electronic halos surrounding edges in the frame stand out.

Go back to that over-sharpened photo of Cameron Diaz. Look at the bright halo around the top of her dress. Look at the halo around her shoulder. Neither of those are present in the unsharpened photo.

http://www.mindspring.com/~lizap/diaz-edgy.jpg

You've been arguing that you want movies to look more "real". When was the last time you looked at someone in real life and saw a bright halo around their shoulder or clothes?

Look also at her hair and especially her eyelashes. Do you notice how what were once well made-up eyelashes are now scary tarantula eyes? The detail is so small that you can't make out each individual halo, but they add an unnatural highlight to each lash that shouldn't be there.

You're not actually seeing a sharper picture. You're just seeing an edgier one.

The same type of unnatural highlights are present in the "All2HD" comparison that was posted previously.

It's not your equipment that I take issue with. It's your "I don't want to learn" attitude.

You've already made it clear that you're not here to "learn" anything. You've already decided that you know everything you need to know, and people more experienced and knowlegable about the subject than yourself can shove off.

Josh, did you ever consider that you too could be the 'learner' instead of the 'teacher'?

I understand what you are saying. Extreme edge enhancement is not good since you lose details while artificially creating a more 'HD like' image. That HD Like image is a perception since it is not really HD. That as lovers of film it is our duty to watch movies as they were encoded. It is not the place of a player to add softness or sharpness to the image.

Yet. You are not open to the idea that many of the other non XDE players could be adding their own sharpness in the decoding process. Just because the player is outputting 480i does not mean that it has not processed the image. In fact, you just don't know whether it is the Toshiba decoder that is adding extra softness in the XDE mode, or that the other decoders are adding slight sharpness to the image. it appears you yourself liked the sharper image of the other DVD up-scaling products.

XDE is a product that is designed to appeal to users who prefer the trade off of a sharper v. softer image. Simple as that. What is troubling however, is the images of people supposedly reviewing this product, showing butchered images that look nothing like what I have experienced with this player - ever!

So, my next question is why? Why would someone go out of their way to show this product in a light that does not reflect what it looks like in the real world? I am at a loss here. IF anyone thinks that what Phil Hinton or the guy from IFA has posted as representative of this players performance needs to understand the meaning of the word - F-U-D.

Cyrano

09-09-08, 03:18 PM

Edge ringing is always a bad thing. Edge ringing is an unnatural electronic artifact that does not belong in a video image. You may think that ringing "enhances" detail by making the picture sharper, but in fact it destroys detail by overlapping on top of real picture information. The more ringing you add, the more detail you obscure. The larger your screen, the more obvious this will be to you.

Yes. Screen at 100" and sitting ten feet away Edge ringing is very annoying.

I write for consumers who care about maintaining the best picture quality possible on a large home theater screen.

Check out Home Theater Magazine. Josh's articles (and reviews) are full of facts and useful info. Kris Deering (an occasional AVS contributor) also writes for HTM.

av.pallino

09-09-08, 03:27 PM

You didn't quote that when you said "Par for the course", you quoted me when I had posted a picture from an entirely different article from HDTV Praxis. Was that simply another mistake or do you have an answer in regards to the post you actually quoted?

In regards to that article with Phil Hinton it shows he didn't agree with Toshiba's hype at the event. Did you attend that event and follow him around so you know exactly what they may or may not have said in his presence?

He has his experiences just like you have yours, if he knew you and cared he could just as easily question your motivation.

I was indeed referring to your blurry image of the arrow. That is not at all representative of what the Toshiba does while watching a movie. You'd be dizzy if that is how it worked :rolleyes:

Also, I don't need to be at the event to figure out that Phil Hinton is essentially setting up a strawman. I am not so naive. Toshiba is not stupid enough to claim that XDE is better than HD! In fact, Phil made that up to beat them up later with it. After all, "Didn't Toshiba say XDE was better than HD? See, it falls short. This product is a failure...." Toshiba went out of their way to say XDE is not designed to compete with Blu Ray.

I'd love to meet him. But one thing would be clear. My compensation nor my employers compensation is not tied to the AV industry in any way. I am not trying to promote anything to anyone. In fact, I seldom if ever try to push any product that I own unless someone asks me for my experience.

In this case, with this player. I find there seems to be a misunderstanding of what the player does and my own experience with it is fundamentally different from some of the butchered images I see being attributed to it on the web. Not fair, I say! Hence, I am fighting it as an ordinary consumer. Not someone with an agenda.

I watch movies in all formats. I have no problem with that. But I am not a promoter or someone planted to spread viral marketing on the web.

av.pallino

09-09-08, 03:33 PM

Yes. Screen at 100" and sitting ten feet away Edge ringing is very annoying.

Check out Home Theater Magazine. Josh's articles (and reviews) are full of facts and useful info. Kris Deering (an occasional AVS contributor) also writes for HTM.

OK. But it is up to each consumer to decide what works for them. What if they don't have a 100 inch screen?

briankmonkey

09-09-08, 03:33 PM

I was indeed referring to your blurry image of the arrow. That is not at all representative of what the Toshiba does while watching a movie. You'd be dizzy if that is how it worked :rolleyes:

Also, I don't need to be at the event to figure out that Phil Hinton is essentially setting up a strawman. I am not so naive. Toshiba is not stupid enough to claim that XDE is better than HD! In fact, Phil made that up to beat them up later with it. After all, "Didn't Toshiba say XDE was better than HD? See, it falls short. This product is a failure...." Toshiba went out of their way to say XDE is not designed to compete with Blu Ray.

I'd love to meet him. But one thing would be clear. My compensation nor my employers compensation is not tied to the AV industry in any way. I am not trying to promote anything to anyone. In fact, I seldom if ever try to push any product that I own unless someone asks me for my experience.

In this case, with this player. I find there seems to be a misunderstanding of what the player does and my own experience with it is fundamentally different from some of the butchered images I see being attributed to it on the web. Not fair, I say! Hence, I am fighting it as an ordinary consumer. Not someone with an agenda.

I watch movies in all formats. I have no problem with that. But I am not a promoter or someone planted to spread viral marketing on the web.

Your post simply doesn't make sense then. You said Par for the course.. Meaning there should be more examples, you've provide no other articles from them to make such a claim.

No, you don't need to be at the event if you simply wish to speculate that he is lying and full of FUD. You can preach until the till the cows come home.

In fact, Phil made that up to beat them up later with it.

You haven't presented any facts whatsoever to back up your claims.
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g24/bouwerieboy/catInTinfoil.jpg

And really, I don't care if you work Pro Bono or not.

dazzerxxx

09-09-08, 03:37 PM

What if they don't have a 100 inch screen?

I guess the ringing artefacts will look worse if the screen is bigger than 100".

D

PFC5

09-09-08, 04:12 PM

It means that devices that employ electronic sharpening filters will add ringing. Ringing is a side effect of electronic sharpening.

Not all DVD players add ringing, because not all DVD players add artificial sharpening.

First. Lets make it clear YOU doctored this picture to make it look as bad as possible (per your own previous statements) and this is NOT what the player actually does and this is NOT from this player. You really should be stating that every time you post it or refer to it, so people do not get the impression I believe you MAY be trying to make buy even creating this. But lets give you the benefit of the doubt and would you kindly be sure to state that disclaimer so people are NOT confused and assume this is the output of this player?

So HOW do ALL these upscalers turn 345,600 (720x480) pixels into 2,073,600 (1920x1080) pixels? Clearly they ARE adding something to do this no? ;)

But the picture is not really "sharper". It's just edgier. The edginess only makes it seem superficially sharper if you're viewing on a small screen and don't know what to look for. The larger the viewing screen, the more the electronic halos surrounding edges in the frame stand out.

Go back to that over-sharpened photo of Cameron Diaz. Look at the bright halo around the top of her dress. Look at the halo around her shoulder. Neither of those are present in the unsharpened photo.

And 3D movies are not REALLY 3D movies but they trick the eyes to seeing it as 3D don't they?

Do we even KNOW what the unretouched photo looks like? Wouldn't THAT be relevant to which is closer to REALITY?

http://www.mindspring.com/~lizap/diaz-edgy.jpg

You've been arguing that you want movies to look more "real". When was the last time you looked at someone in real life and saw a bright halo around their shoulder or clothes?

Look also at her hair and especially her eyelashes. Do you notice how what were once well made-up eyelashes are now scary tarantula eyes? The detail is so small that you can't make out each individual halo, but they add an unnatural highlight to each lash that shouldn't be there.

You're not actually seeing a sharper picture. You're just seeing an edgier one.

Again. It is a matter of perception at the proper viewing distance. Clearly you DO know that you need to be further away with SD images compared to HD images, so it stands to reason that IF you are looking at this from the same distance as you do for HD then this could show the flaws more. They are there with HD also when you move twice as close to it than the recommended distance too. Keep in mind that MANY people are watching a 32" HDTV from 12+ feet away in their living rooms, so that "edgy" picture looks more clear/sharp just like 3D which is not true 3D looks like 3D with 3D glasses on and a movie made to use those glasses.

The same type of unnatural highlights are present in the "All2HD" comparison that was posted previously.

And again this IS the basis of my getting involved with all this, since i look at that picture and I think it looks MUCH better myself. I bet 80-90% of the people that look at that example would think the second image looks better too. YOU however seem to think subjective opinions do not matter and it is all about "purist" opinion only as the correct answer. There is no correct answer as it is in the eye of the beholder that matters. ;)

BTW, where are those actual measurements YOU stated you had that show this "excessive" ringing? Please no more pictures of it. I want the actual measurements you stated you have for this. You know, like in actual inches, millimeters, etc. Are you getting them since you did say you actually had measurements?

It's not your equipment that I take issue with. It's your "I don't want to learn" attitude.

You've already made it clear that you're not here to "learn" anything. You've already decided that you know everything you need to know, and people more experienced and knowlegable about the subject than yourself can shove off.

That is patently FALSE. I am always willing to learn and it is WHY I come to forums still. If what you say is true there would be no need for me to come here now would there? ;) I come here to continue to learn, not be insulted because I disagree with a subjective opinion, or ask more questions about said opinion.

What I have an issue with is someone who thinks THEY have nothing to learn and that anyone who disagrees with THEIR subjective opinions, is either wrong, or have no place in reading/posting here in this forum. It is that kind of arrogance that turns people off when people act like snobs and question why people who disagree with them even come here to AVS.

If people like YOU want everyone else who doesn't agree with your "expert" "OPINION" to go elsewhere, this place would be dead and all there would be is the sound of crickets chirping. I am pretty sure AVS does not want people to leave that do not fit YOUR criteria, as then the advertisers will go elsewhere also.

What will be your review of a 3D BD player be like if/when they come, as I have no doubt with the current instruments used to "measure" improper images, they would not do such a player justice since NONE of those instruments work like a human eye sees. Will you make allowances for this, or will you pan those players also? I think the same (to a lesser extent) should be afforded to what a player designed to trick human eyes to see more than what is actually in the material being played. I do not feel that was taken into account with this player, but should have been noted as such IMHO. ;)

I don't want to fight about this and when you said that the all2HD image looked bad is when I realized what YOU think looks bad, I think IS an improvement. I always liked your reviews I read and valued your judgment in the past. Heck I think I have even defended your position on reviews in the past on forums. :lol:

I even thanked you for providing that so I could see what YOU didn't like, to base whether I would like it or not. Are you right and I am wrong? I don't think EITHER of us are right or wrong. We just have opposite subjective opinions on it. I hate peanut butter but love chocolate, and you may feel the opposite. It doesn't make EITHER of us right, nor neither of us wrong.

reincarnate

09-09-08, 04:20 PM

Toshiba never claimed that XDE was better than HD as Phil Hinton claims!
At least Toshiba never claimed that it was as good as Blu-ray discs.
However Blu-ray is getting hit from all sides now with both fiber-optic cable, coaxial cable and satellite companies all claiming 1080p performance. Blu-ray Disc Association isn't the only one ringing-like-a-bell. :)
Here is a rather funny logo from Josh's employer, Home Theater Magaizine. At least co-worker Mark Fleischmann has a sense of humor about all the fur-flying:
http://www.hometheatermag.com/images/newsart/090208bda.jpg

http://www.hometheatermag.com/news/090208bda/

Psst: can AVS forum make up a little smilies knock-off of this pouting face? Just sharpen it up a bit and sheel be right mate!

av.pallino

09-09-08, 04:25 PM

Your post simply doesn't make sense then. You said Par for the course.. Meaning there should be more examples, you've provide no other articles from them to make such a claim.

No, you don't need to be at the event if you simply wish to speculate that he is lying and full of FUD. You can preach until the till the cows come home.

You haven't presented any facts whatsoever to back up your claims.
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g24/bouwerieboy/catInTinfoil.jpg

And really, I don't care if you work Pro Bono or not.

I trust you have used an XDE player. Right? Just curious what your experience with it was? Looking through this thread, I could not find it :confused:

markrubin

09-09-08, 04:39 PM

if you guys keep bickering you will be asked to leave the thread

emthree

09-09-08, 05:19 PM

if you guys keep bickering you will be asked to leave the thread

Please Mods. This is fascinating discussion, and so far has remained civil. I think it is getting to the crux of the matter, i.e. do the objective tests reported on still images from a player accurately reflect the subjective viewing experience of a 'moving' picture on the same player? So, please, don't lock anyone out; yet:-)

av.pallino

09-09-08, 05:29 PM

Please Mods. This is fascinating discussion, and so far has remained civil. I think it is getting to the crux of the matter, i.e. do the objective tests reported on still images from a player accurately reflect the subjective viewing experience of a 'moving' picture on the same player? So, please, don't lock anyone out; yet:-)

I think it has already been clarified that images taken with the Toshiba when it in pause mode reduces the resolution of the image. It is not what you are seeing when the video is in movement. So, any objective measurement of the player in pause is not right. Even Josh does not dispute that.

dazzerxxx

09-09-08, 05:32 PM

Please Mods. This is fascinating discussion, and so far has remained civil. I think it is getting to the crux of the matter, i.e. do the objective tests reported on still images from a player accurately reflect the subjective viewing experience of a 'moving' picture on the same player? So, please, don't lock anyone out; yet:-)

The question to be verified is are the deinterlacing test images taken from a "Paused" screen shot or just a shot of the screen. The easiest way to avoid pages of speculation and conspiricy theory is email the website that did the review for a definative answer. :)

D

Mr2Spyder

09-09-08, 05:34 PM

Geez.....It is obvious that this player is altering the picture! People keep freeze framing screenshots and zeroing in on specific details and pointing out halos & imperfections. How many people freeze frame a movie and look at the screen with a microscope. DVD picture unaltered is crappy to begin with when compared to HD&Blu Ray. I own two Oppos and have been watching "pure" dvd pictures for awhile and as an alternative welcome something that can appear (to my unprofessionally trained eyes) to make DVD's appear more detailed.

dazzerxxx

09-09-08, 05:34 PM

I think it has already been clarified that images taken with the Toshiba when it in pause mode reduces the resolution of the image. It is not what you are seeing when the video is in movement. So, any objective measurement of the player in pause is not right. Even Josh does not dispute that.

But we don't know if the images of the deinterlacing test in the German review are taken using a paused screen. Lets wait and see what the review site has to say on the subject.

D

Josh Z

09-09-08, 05:35 PM

Does this Zoran deinterlacer ruin the 1080i output too? No need to deinterlace for a 1080i signal is there?

When a DVD player upconverts a 480i image to 1080i, it has to deinterlace the video, scale it, then reinterlace it. There is no way to avoid the deinterlacing step. The scaling process is based on whole video frames, not interlaced fields.

av.pallino

09-09-08, 05:43 PM

But we don't know if the images of the deinterlacing test in the German review are taken using a paused screen. Lets wait and see what the review site has to say on the subject.

D

The images I saw on that link clear show 'pause' on the screen! It's right there on their screen shots :eek:

Take a look for yourself :)

http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hdtv-praxis.de%2Fmodules.php%3Fop%3Dmodload%26name%3DPagEd%26file %3Dindex%26topic_id%3D2%26page_id%3D554&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=de&tl=en

av.pallino

09-09-08, 05:46 PM

The question to be verified is are the deinterlacing test images taken from a "Paused" screen shot or just a shot of the screen. The easiest way to avoid pages of speculation and conspiricy theory is email the website that did the review for a definative answer. :)

D

http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hdtv-praxis.de%2Fmodules.php%3Fop%3Dmodload%26name%3DPagEd%26file %3Dindex%26topic_id%3D2%26page_id%3D554&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=de&tl=en

See if you can spot the pause on the screen shots of the still images :)

dazzerxxx

09-09-08, 05:50 PM

dazzerxxx

09-09-08, 05:51 PM

http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hdtv-praxis.de%2Fmodules.php%3Fop%3Dmodload%26name%3DPagEd%26file %3Dindex%26topic_id%3D2%26page_id%3D554&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=de&tl=en

See if you can spot the pause on the screen shots of the still images :)

I can't see any "pause" on the deinterlacing test patterns hence why I suggest asking the review site. :)

D

briankmonkey

09-09-08, 05:57 PM

if you guys keep bickering you will be asked to leave the thread

Thank you Mark. Personal attacks in response to simple questions aren't appreciated and don't serve any purpose.

av.pallino

09-09-08, 05:57 PM

ack_bk

09-09-08, 06:03 PM

dazzerxxx

09-09-08, 06:06 PM

Ah, I see what you mean. The problem is that those interlaced images are so bad, that if the product really did that to each image, it would be totally unwatchable. So, given that I have seen this player in action now, I cannot reconcile myself to their images.

Furthermore, does it not raise any concern for you that the reviewer would put paused images when it is clearly not indicative of the players performance? I don't know how many images they cherry picked to come up with these.

If you really think that what they did is fine, then I'll defer to an expert like Josh since he knows how products are reviewed and presented. Perhaps it is a common practice and I wasn't aware of it till now.

I don't wish to make assumptions and have emailed the site - redaktion@hdtv-praxis.de <redaktion@hdtv-praxis.de> to ask the question.

The reviewer also gives a subjective opinion to support the objective test. I also trust the feedback of Phil Hinton based on past experience. Here's the conclusion from the German site translated by a human (Grubert) rather than google -

"To sum up, we were expecting a lot more. With the XD-E500KE, Toshiba offers a standard DVD player that does what it's meant to do – play DVDs. If you're looking for a standard DVD player, and the ordinary deinterlacing isn't distracting, then you can go for it; if you want a hidef player, you should buy a Blu-ray player. Any comparison with an HD player is quite unrealistic, especially considering that for instance Toshiba showed with the XE1 [XA2] HD DVD player where was the top level regarding DVD upscaling and picture quality.

Customers looking for an HD experience with the XD-E500 are bound to be disappointed, if you excuse our blunt words. We can only recommend Toshiba that they should forget as soon as possible that they lost the HD DVD vs Blu-ray war, and that they launch a Blu-ray player. Otherwise they are only damaging themselves. Toshiba can do it, we are sure about it. We'll have a detailed test of the device soon."

D

arkiedan

09-09-08, 06:53 PM

Dropped by my local Best Buy to try and see this player in action (local Circuit City carries them, but there is no way to demo them) and they did not have any. Just checked the Best Buy website and they do not list the XDE there either. For those of you that bought one at a local B&M, where did you pick it up at and was there a demo running?

Circuit City has an unconditional 30-day return policy. Take it home and try it in your own environment. I did and that's why I'm keeping it. Hey! If you don't like it return it.

You can listen to both sides here and it'll just make you crazy. TRY IT YOURSELF!

PFC5

09-09-08, 06:53 PM

I don't wish to make assumptions and have emailed the site - redaktion@hdtv-praxis.de <redaktion@hdtv-praxis.de> to ask the question.

The reviewer also gives a subjective opinion to support the objective test. I also trust the feedback of Phil Hinton based on past experience. Here's the conclusion from the German site translated by a human (Grubert) rather than google -

"To sum up, we were expecting a lot more. With the XD-E500KE, Toshiba offers a standard DVD player that does what it's meant to do – play DVDs. If you're looking for a standard DVD player, and the ordinary deinterlacing isn't distracting, then you can go for it; if you want a hidef player, you should buy a Blu-ray player. Any comparison with an HD player is quite unrealistic, especially considering that for instance Toshiba showed with the XE1 [XA2] HD DVD player where was the top level regarding DVD upscaling and picture quality.

Customers looking for an HD experience with the XD-E500 are bound to be disappointed, if you excuse our blunt words. We can only recommend Toshiba that they should forget as soon as possible that they lost the HD DVD vs Blu-ray war, and that they launch a Blu-ray player. Otherwise they are only damaging themselves. Toshiba can do it, we are sure about it. We'll have a detailed test of the device soon."

D

Thanks for the translation!

That sounds like a commercial for BD players to me and not a review of a SD DVD player. :p

Is this how ALL SD DVD player reviews will be done in the future? If so what is the point of doing them when ZERO SD players will compare to a BD player?

arkiedan

09-09-08, 07:03 PM

Thank you Mark. Personal attacks in response to simple questions aren't appreciated and don't serve any purpose.

What, those 14,000+ posts give you immunity? I believe Mark was also talking to you.

This thing is out of control and going nowhere. It long ago stopped serving any useful purpose.

dazzerxxx

09-09-08, 07:20 PM

Thanks for the translation!

That sounds like a commercial for BD players to me and not a review of a SD DVD player. :p

Is this how ALL SD DVD player reviews will be done in the future? If so what is the point of doing them when ZERO SD players will compare to a BD player?

I don't know but given Phil's comments about Tosh PR at IFA in Germany and those comments from a German web site perhaps that's what Tosh PR was pushing in Germany.

I don't think anyone expects it to be as good or better than HD but the German site is the first that I'm aware of to post information about how the XDE500 performs in tems of deinterlacing etc. rather than just subjective opinion.

D

briankmonkey

09-09-08, 07:24 PM

What, those 14,000+ posts give you immunity?

Of course not.

I believe Mark was also talking to you.

I'm sure he was as I was responding to the BS and personal attacks. Clearly he doesn't want any of it period (hence why my response to the BS was deleted as well). It's in my nature to call out BS when somebody lies about me. Same goes for purposely stating what I now believe to be false information. I asked for proof to give benefit of the dobut, none was provided but instead I received personal attack instead.

This thing is out of control and going nowhere. It long ago stopped serving any useful purpose.

If you feel that way you are free to stop participating ;) Personally I'm enjoying reading the different reviews that people have been bringing to the table.

edit: I wouldn't be surprised if your post and my response was deleted as well.

nineteen70

09-09-08, 08:14 PM

I will say this I have found many reviews about this player being an excellent choice for the average joe. I for one don't have one and won't buy one because I believe in VOD but it's nice to see Toshiba come back after HD DVD and I am a owner of 2 HD players and my A3 upconverts nicely. If anyone bought the XDE enjoy it because thats what its all about getting the most out of your money. To those who really don't like it much that's o.k as well because you have a right to your own opinion plus it good to agree to disagree but not argue. Like I said heard a lot of good things about the XDE.

reincarnate

09-09-08, 08:51 PM

Please Mods. This is fascinating discussion, and so far has remained civil. I think it is getting to the crux of the matter, i.e. do the objective tests reported on still images from a player accurately reflect the subjective viewing experience of a 'moving' picture on the same player? So, please, don't lock anyone out; yet:-)
I agree. You can assume that least were all not idiots here. :)
That being said, I've been single stepping through American Gangster looking for ringing for the last three hours and I'm only half way through. Then the doorbell rang and scared the hell out of me as I though Josh was right for a second, but then I remembered I'm supposed to see the ringing, not hear it! Oh well stupid me. :eek:
But I'm still taking my time. I mean I don't want to report anything here which is not accurate after all.

monomer

09-09-08, 09:22 PM

Yes. Screen at 100" and sitting ten feet away Edge ringing is very annoying...

True, but have you tried viewing it from 20 feet away?... you may just be very surprised at what you don't see. At that distance I think you will find you can no longer discern the edge ringing that seems so annoyingly apparent when viewed up close yet you will find that the increased sharpness is still readily apparent. Many people view their TVs from a similar ratio of 'distance-to-screen width' and so for them this player is amazing in what it appears to be doing, sharpening the picture without any apparent visual artifacts. Its certainly true that adding 'apparent' sharpness which is not there in the original source material (regardless of how its done) creates artifacts but if you are viewing from a far enough distance the artifacts are not really noticeable, so... when a tree falls in the forest does it make a sound if no one is there to hear it? ...is there really any edge ringing if you are not close enough to see it? No one's saying the XDE does not create edge ringing artifacts as all one need do is walk up close to the screen and it'll reach out and bite you on the nose... however if you back up enough it effectively becomes a non-issue as it disappears... the amazing trick is that the apparent sharpness seems to remain.

Oh, and I believe those who find the sort of discourse that has hi-jacked this XD-E500 Owners thread entertaining or enlightening is probably not aware that it is cluttering up this OWNER'S thread to the point of making it useless to anyone actually wanting to know something about this player. So please why not give the bickering its own thread and leave this one to those truly interested in learning about the XDE.

Cyrano

09-09-08, 10:18 PM

True, but have you tried viewing it from 20 feet away?... you may just be very surprised at what you don't see. At that distance I think you will find you can no longer discern the edge ringing that seems so annoyingly apparent when viewed up close yet you will find that the increased sharpness is still readily apparent. Many people view their TVs from a similar ratio of 'distance-to-screen width' and so for them this player is amazing it what it appears to do, sharpen the picture without apparent visual artifacts. Its certainly true that adding 'apparent' sharpness which is not there in the original source material (regardless of how its done) creates artifacts but if you are viewing from a far enough distance the artifacts are not really noticeable, so... when a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound if no one is there to hear it? ...is there any edge ringing if you are not close enough to see it? No one's saying the XDE does not create edge ringing artifacts as all one need do is walk up close to the screen and it'll reach out and bite you on the nose... however if you back up enough it effectively becomes a non-issue as it disappears... the amazing trick is that the sharpness seems to remain.

Interesting points.
I'm pretty happy with my ($40) Philips 5990. Before that my Bravo D1 had a better non edge ring to it. And before that my Panny RP62 looked quite good. (I really liked its faroudja) They died and the Philips does me well until I make the move to BD.

But this talk about the XDE does make me want to see what it does on my display (Optoma HD70). I can sit as far as 15 feet from the screen (room size is 17X13); but the best PQ (and no SDE) is 10 feet for me. I'd hate to have to move further back due to artifacts caused by the player and not present on the media used for viewing (BD or DVD). Seems counterproductive.

I like the BIG show. :cool:

elezzar

09-09-08, 10:47 PM

Guys, after reading so much in this thread about this new upscaling dvd player I'm thinking about getting one. I'm not buying any more blu-ray software at the moment 'cause the new releases are to expensive for me and I have like a collection of 800 dvds that I can watch in great quality with this toshiba. The thing is that I'm only renting blu-ray for the time being and buying a lot of used reg dvds for cheap at my local video store. 4 movies for 20 bucks isn't bad of a deal. The question is: am I gonna see a better upconversion than my a3 on a 110 screen ? I have a sony aw10 .

monomer

09-09-08, 11:02 PM

As I previously stated and Josh repeated: do not make any judgments about this player while in pause mode. The picture loses 50% of the horizontal lines or 50% of the vertical resolution.
If simulating VHS was the goal then you guys have succeeded.
Hopefully our guests are not laughing too much at our stupidity! :o

That posting of mine was a feable attempt at trying and get this thread back on track and the reason for my including the OP's stills taken of the XDE's playback was meant to point out the huge exaggeration the Carmen Diaz photoshopped pic's were compared to what the actual XDE does as far as sharpening. I was attempting to undo the great disservice the ridiculous Diaz pix caused and felt I was putting things back into perspective.

kbgl

09-09-08, 11:08 PM

Here's a screenshot that is actually from the XDE. It is paused by the projector, not the player. The sharp setting is engaged.

monomer

09-09-08, 11:32 PM

How big is your screen and how far back are your pictures being taken from? BTW, its nice to actually see some pics that are taken from the XDE for a change.

kbgl

09-09-08, 11:42 PM

How big is your screen and how far back are your pictures being taken from? BTW, its nice to actually see some pics that are taken from the XDE for a change.

Pictures were taken 9 feet from an approximately 70" to 78" 4:3 picture.

monomer

09-09-08, 11:57 PM

Pictures were taken 9 feet from an approximately 70" to 78" 4:3 picture.
Appears you are approx at about a 1.5X screen width... the minimum recommended viewing distance. That's pretty good. I was still seeing edge ringing in the details at that distance (ratio-wise) however I find it very hard to see the ringing in your pix (though I do see a very minor amount) and this is on a 24" 1080p monitor in which your pix occupies a small portion of. My problem was that I have a 96" diag screen (84" wide) and my first row of seating is ~9-10ft back and that was simply too close. However in the second row of seating (~16-17ft back) it was much more tolerable and easy to understand why many people like the XDE. Since I wasn't able to move the first row of seats back (due to audio related issues) sadly I ended up returning my unit to CC. Had I been able to move the screen another 5-6ft back the XDE would have been a definite keeper. Thanks for the pix.

PFC5

09-10-08, 02:02 AM

Pictures were taken 9 feet from an approximately 70" to 78" 4:3 picture.

Are you connected via HDMI? Did you set the output to "AUTO"? From what I have been reading, the player does not do any of those 3 effects/processing if you do not use HDMI, AND have the player output set to AUTO, or set the output to 1080i or 1080p.

Did you check to see if there was a difference with 480 material, or did you send it at 1080i and let the FP scale it down?

Thanks for the pics as it is nice to get back to REAL pics produced by the player instead of doctored pics.

tommy_smith

09-10-08, 04:19 AM

Contrary to your claim, DVD player performance is not all subjective. There are numerous objective technical tests that are run to determine how accurately a DVD player renders the data on a DVD disc.

How much detail does it produce with all enhancements turned off?
(Answer: The XD-E500's picture is softer than comparable upconverting DVD players when the enhancements are turned off.)

How well does it deinterlace the video?
(Answer: Deinterlacing performace is quite mediocre. It does well with simple 3:2 cadence, but fails tests for video-based and mixed-source content.)

Hi Josh,

I agree with your views on sharpness enhancements but could you tell us how you tested the deinterlacer performance? I don't think there has been much discussion about this on this thread yet. Unlike other features, you can't turn off the deinterlacer, and so this is a higher concern for me. I guess from your remarks that the deinterlacer is not as good as the Oppo983. Which specific tests does this player fail?

Thanks

reincarnate

09-10-08, 07:16 AM

That posting of mine was a feable attempt at trying and get this thread back on track and the reason for my including the OP's stills taken of the XDE's playback was meant to point out the huge exaggeration the Carmen Diaz photoshopped pic's were compared to what the actual XDE does as far as sharpening. I was attempting to undo the great disservice the ridiculous Diaz pix caused and felt I was putting things back into perspective.
The is no question that many in the industry are out to slay this Toshiba (and in turn all standard definition/DVD playback).
I usually work alone in correcting industry distortions motivated in the name of profitability. Just like any other consumer I want the best performance for my dollar.
The optimal Blu-ray/DVD player would have just two jacks: HDMI for video and audio and an Ethernet port for firmware updates and optional media streaming.

The resurgence of $2000 Blu-ray players and ever increasing disc prices from the major Japanese companies (Denon, Sony and Pioneer) will do the industry far more harm than this $150 consumers-choice Toshiba. They know it too, which must be terrifying.

Thank you for the assistance.

dazzerxxx

09-10-08, 08:17 AM

The images I saw on that link clear show 'pause' on the screen! It's right there on their screen shots :eek:

Take a look for yourself :)

http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hdtv-praxis.de%2Fmodules.php%3Fop%3Dmodload%26name%3DPagEd%26file %3Dindex%26topic_id%3D2%26page_id%3D554&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=de&tl=en

To avoid pages of speculation about the deinterlacing shots (not to be confused with the images of the fruit etc) being/not being "paused" I emailed the review site for clarification. Here's the answer (emphasis mine)-

" >
> From: "Redaktion HDTV-PRAXIS" <redaktion@hdtv-praxis.de>
> Date: 2008/09/10 Wed AM 11:25:33 GMT
> Subject: AW: Toshiba XDE500 short review question
>

> all pictures of the deinterlacing tests are taken in motion . It looks on the
> screen exactly how the pictures look. The deinterlacing of this player is
> very bad and a shame. We talk to Toshiba, he knows the problem but he ship
> the product with the bad deinterlacing to the market. So, perhaps Toshiba
> works on a new firmware, but Toshiba can not agree a new firmware at this
> time. It is a shame! Each customer can check the bad deinterlacing by
> himself - he need only a testdisk. So, you can see the bad deinterlacing
> also with the most DVDs, when you look on letters on the screen.
>
> See here:
>
> http://vimeo.com/1633292
>
> "

D

Deja Vu

09-10-08, 08:28 AM

dazzerxxx

09-10-08, 08:55 AM

I just looked at KBGLs photos and the lettering looks just fine! So what gives! Either the European XDE is very different from the North American one or Reincarnate may have a point about a deliberate attempt to trash this player - I am a little suspicious!

Is the lettering in those images generated by the player/display or processed material from a DVD ? I've no idea if that makes a differerence but the images on the sites I've seen have been based on disc material not player/display generated text/graphics. :)

The Euro spec players will also need to process PAL film material which does not use 3:2 cadence.

D

joed32

09-10-08, 09:03 AM

No. You can measure how much ringing the player adds to the image. The XD-E500 adds a lot more ringing than comparable upconverting DVD players.

Edge ringing is always a bad thing. Edge ringing is an unnatural electronic artifact that does not belong in a video image. You may think that ringing "enhances" detail by making the picture sharper, but in fact it destroys detail by overlapping on top of real picture information. The more ringing you add, the more detail you obscure. The larger your screen, the more obvious this will be to you.

I write for consumers who care about maintaining the best picture quality possible on a large home theater screen. If you don't fall into that category, I have to wonder why you're posting on AVSForum.

We are posting in the SD section about an SD player, do we not belong here because we're not talking about Hi Def? I like to watch old movies, many of them are even black and white. You can only enjoy movies in HD and there is nothing wrong with that. If you count HD titles compared to SD titles then there are thousands of great films that I can enjoy but you can't watch because of the PQ. You care most of all about "maintaining the best picture quality possible on a large home theater screen" and that's a fine thing. I want to watch movies on an SD player and enjoy them for what they are.

kbgl

09-10-08, 09:04 AM

Are you connected via HDMI? Did you set the output to "AUTO"? From what I have been reading, the player does not do any of those 3 effects/processing if you do not use HDMI, AND have the player output set to AUTO, or set the output to 1080i or 1080p.

Did you check to see if there was a difference with 480 material, or did you send it at 1080i and let the FP scale it down?

Thanks for the pics as it is nice to get back to REAL pics produced by the player instead of doctored pics.

Connection is HDMI, and I used auto. My projector is 16:9 480p native, so the XDE auto selected 480p. I tried it at 1080i, 1080p as well. I believe that the 480p looks better, but I've not spent a great deal of time going back and forth.

kbgl

09-10-08, 09:08 AM

Is the letteing in those images generated by the player or processed material from a DVD ? I've no idea if that makes a differerence but the images on the sites I've seen have been based on disc material not player generated text/graphics. :)

The Euro spec players will also need to process PAL film material which does not use 3:2 cadence.

D

That's a very good point. I should have realized that text is generated by the projector!

I will edit my post.

Grubert

09-10-08, 09:25 AM

The optimal Blu-ray/DVD player would have just two jacks: HDMI for video and audio and an Ethernet port for firmware updates and optional media streaming.

You just described the PS3. :D

Doug G

09-10-08, 09:40 AM

kbgls pics are purely 480p mode, so they don't show any of the XDE enhancements. I'd take pics myself if I owned a decent digital camera, but I don't! (Still using my film-based 35mm SLR....but planning a EOS 5D MkII upgrade next year!)

That video linked above was almost certainly produced as video so using it to gauge overall deinterlacing performance might be misleading. Now, I just happened to pull out Gladiator last night to do about 30 minutes of critical viewing prior to Fringe coming on, and I definitely recalled seeing what I would describe as a subtle "shimmer" effect visible during some of the opening text which slowly comes forward towards the screen. So I just went and put it back in and set the player to Pscan mode so I could allow it to deinterlace over the component connection to my Elite RPTV since I'm not turning the PJ on for a 10 minute test. Well, the text shimmering or breakup or whatever you want to call it wasn't nearly as bad as the video linked above, but it was there. When I disabled the Pscan mode and replayed the opening section letting the excellent Elite deinterlacer take over, it was virtually eliminated. The difference was subtle, I'd say. However, when I went to the credits at the end, that's when the difference was very marked. Letting the XDE deinterlace (again 480p over component) the text definitely displayed interlaced mode artifacts. Letting the Elite take over completely eliminated these and the text was solid and clear. I repeated the test quickly with SW1 using both the opening text roll and closing credits and the results were similar. Not quite as noticeable on the larger text in the opening roll, but still there and easily visible in the smaller text portions of the end credits. I have to say, I was surprised to see such poor performance. I have no idea if the flagging on either of these somewhat older releases is an issue, particularly during the credits, but nevertheless for film based content in a 2008 model progressive DVD player, I expect better than this. I need to do a little more digging, but unless I find some really bad issue with the flags, I think I'll have to raise this issue with Toshiba and I'd encourage others too, as well. Maybe we can get a fix in the form of new firmware if enough folks make an issue out of it.

What this doesn't really jive with is that I use the player exclusively in 1080p/24F mode with my projector, and in that mode at a large size any deinterlacing artifacts should be very apparent and I just don't recall seeing any that were immediately recognizeable as such. All that's really been readily apparent to me is when it dropped to video mode at chapter breaks a few times due to improper flagging - this is very obvious when it happens since motion gets uber-juddery.

One other thing to mention, while I have found the color mode to be quite useful, I definitely found it to adversely affect the opening scenes of Gladiator during the battle in the Germanian forest. The dusky, foggy, overcast, gray picture composition in those scenes became way too artificial looking due to the boosting of the blue content in all the gray hues which comprised most of the picture. I wouldn't say it was exactly like turning the color temp way up, but it was close due to all the grays which became somewhat bluish as a result. I decided it was better turned off, so I've realized I need to probably stay away from this mode in movies which have lots of darker scenes. On the other hand, sitting 11-12' away from my 104" screen, I didn't see any appreciably obvious or distracting ringing with sharp mode enabled.

kbgl

09-10-08, 09:55 AM

Grubert

09-10-08, 10:48 AM

Another review, this time by dvdtown's Henning Molbaek, of "Say no to Blu-ray" (http://www.dvdtown.com/news/dont-get-the-blues---say-no-to-blu-ray/4407) fame :D

http://www.dvdtown.com/news/review-toshiba-xde-upscaling-1080p-dvd-player/5908

Conclusion:

In the end, at $149.99 the Toshiba XD-E500 upconverting player is hard to place and hard to recommend. While it does a good job upscaling SD DVDs, some people will find the "Sharp" feature "too much" and too unnatural and will prefer the job done by the Playstation 3, Toshiba XA2, or their like, which also deliver a very good and natural image. Additionally, a person should take into consideration that quality Blu-ray players are starting to enter the $250-$300 price range, and they often give you decent scaling along with Blu-ray playback.

Therefore, while some people will find the "Sharp" feature an improvement, the question is whether it is a clear enough advantage to justify paying $149.99. My answer is no, but your opinion could be different if you can't get things sharp enough already. It really is one of those products you have to see before buying.

The XD-E500 is not a miracle for standard-definition content, but it´s not a complete waste, either. It is somewhat in between, which keeps us interested in the upcoming upscaling products that will feature a powerful cell processor but also make this generation fall short of a true recommendation.

Doug G

09-10-08, 11:24 AM

XDE enhancements do work on 480p selected by auto!

Oh, ok, thanks for the clarification! I knew it would work at 720p in Auto mode but thought it was limited to the HD resolutions only. So you can see a visible difference at 480 mode when you toggle sharp mode on/off? I imagine its a lot more subtle than in 1080p mode.

av.pallino

09-10-08, 11:56 AM

Another review, this time by dvdtown's Henning Molbaek, of "Say no to Blu-ray" (http://www.dvdtown.com/news/dont-get-the-blues---say-no-to-blu-ray/4407) fame :D

http://www.dvdtown.com/news/review-toshiba-xde-upscaling-1080p-dvd-player/5908

Conclusion:

I tend to agree with this review based on experience. Like I said, personally I prefer the LG BH 200 upscaling. The PS3 while running hot and in some cases loud, is also an excellent choice. But both cost much more than the XDE.

However, of the current entry level Blu Ray player only the $399 Samsung 1500 has impressed me. I've looked at the Panny 30, the Sharp and Sony S300 and S350. While it may be worth the extra $200 to get Blu Ray. But be warned, most of these, particularly the Panny are probably only as good as the cheapest upscaling DVD players I have seen.

I also agree with this review to the extent, while Toshiba has an interesting algorithm with their XDE and 24 fps upscaling. Going to such a low end processor really hurt them here. Of course just my opinion.

A spurs engine based solution will clearly have better performance. If anything they probably used this to test the market.

In any case I highly doubt that AV purists will ever be on board with a player that applies aggressive post processing to enhance the image. This type of product is for those who would consider buying the $5.99 DVD to the $ 29.99 Blu Ray. Folks like myself :)

If you're already in love in Blu Ray and are not interested in DVD, this sort of product is not going to do it for you. Ever! So, if you're here on the SD thread, there is only one reason. Because it is highly unlikely you would have bought this product. Or am I missing something?

arkiedan

09-10-08, 12:03 PM

Another review, this time by dvdtown's Henning Molbaek, of "Say no to Blu-ray" (http://www.dvdtown.com/news/dont-get-the-blues---say-no-to-blu-ray/4407) fame :D

http://www.dvdtown.com/news/review-toshiba-xde-upscaling-1080p-dvd-player/5908

Conclusion:

I thought it was a fair and balanced review. This paragraph seems to answer some of my own thoughts and questions after far too many hours of playing good and bad disks on the XDE:

"It was clear from the start that the player did, indeed, make the picture sharper and less fuzzy. This was very clear on the 150" projected image that makes it hard to hide any change to an image. Switching among the three players, it was obvious that the XDE was sharper and more detailed than the other players (XA2 and PS3), but it was not a night-and-day improvement by any means. Another problem also started to emerge as I tested various discs. Depending on how good the transfer was, the result of the "Sharp" feature varied. This feature can't quite see the difference between compression artifacts and details in an image. This sometimes resulted in a worse image than if you simply switched it off. In some images it also created a "halo effect" around the edges--a kind of unnatural line around sharp edges that can be visible when you sharpen an image too much."

I've also noticed the XDE reading compression artifacts and increasing the problem, resulting in a terrible image on some disks. The writer's explanation seems quite plausible.

With a well-executed disk the output at 1080P24 is terrific and, as with any other player, a bad disk is not worth viewing.

Someone said (about the XDE), "You can't polish a turd." I contend he was right, but only in that you can't clean up a crummy sd disk and that goes for any upscaling player out there.

reincarnate

09-10-08, 12:23 PM

You just described the PS3. :D
I own two of them. The PS3 is the only Blu-ray disc player which has stood the test of time and not been rendered obsolete within six months of introduction.

In fact the PS3 is one of the greatest A/V components of all time. Its designer got canned by Sony brass even though its saved the company.
Its SACD playback is without equal yet the industry will not review its audio capability because there is no money in it for them. (But there sure is with $2K players). I can't say anything about CD playback cause I stream audio using the Logitech Duet (another ground breaking, easy to use, inexpensive, great sounding product.)
The PS3 SD playback is pretty good too in actual viewing. Lets see if Sony bows to market pressure and adds 24Hz DVD playback. That would blow some wind out of Toshiba sails but renew interest in quality DVD playback! :cool:

kbgl

09-10-08, 12:26 PM

Oh, ok, thanks for the clarification! I knew it would work at 720p in Auto mode but thought it was limited to the HD resolutions only. So you can see a visible difference at 480 mode when you toggle sharp mode on/off? I imagine its a lot more subtle than in 1080p mode.

The effect is subtle to my eye at either output resolution. The IN72 is known to have a slightly soft image that cannot be corrected by increasing the sharpness with the projector. On more click on the projector sharpness results in easily visible edge enhancement problems. What the XDE sharpness does in my setup is almost hard to spot. In other words, it's a good subtle improvement, but if someone else controled the remote, and asked is it on or off, it would be hard to tell for sure without seeing it change.

reincarnate

09-10-08, 12:35 PM

The effect is subtle to my eye at either output resolution. The IN72 is known to have a slightly soft image that cannot be corrected by increasing the sharpness with the projector. On more click on the projector sharpness results in easily visible edge enhancement problems. What the XDE sharpness does in my setup is almost hard to spot. In other words, it's a good subtle improvement, but if someone else controlled the remote, and asked is it on or off, it would be hard to tell for sure without seeing it change.
Toshiba offers an unique and integrated solution in that it selectively make use of the extra pixels when upscaling from 740*480 (DVD resolution) to 1920*1080p resolution.
Unfortunately these benefits are not available at lessor resolutions. The good news is that you are an honest and accurate observer.

av.pallino

09-10-08, 12:43 PM

I own two of them. The PS3 is the only Blu-ray disc player which has stood the test of time and not been rendered obsolete within six months of introduction.

In fact the PS3 is one of the greatest A/V components of all time. Its designer got canned by Sony brass even though its saved the company.
Its SACD playback is without equal yet the industry will not review its audio capability because there is no money in it for them. (But there sure is with $2K players). I can't say anything about CD playback cause I stream audio using the Logitech Duet (another ground breaking, easy to use, inexpensive, great sounding product.)
The PS3 SD playback is pretty good too in actual viewing. Lets see if Sony bows to market pressure and adds 24Hz DVD playback. That would blow some wind out of Toshiba sails but renew interest in quality DVD playback! :cool:

From what I know Ken designed a product that would sell for $799 or in that range. That was the great miscalculation. The technology is great and so is the implementation, but the price point at which it is selling makes it a tough product to make money off of.

Also, the PS3 in some ways is similar to Microsoft Vista. We compare Vista to XP just as folks will compare PS3 to PS2. I believe in the last gen PS2 had something like 2/3 console share. It is now down to 1/3 with the PS3.

So, IF I price a Mercedes E series car the same as a Honda Accord, it is obvious that the Mercedes will seem the best value. But I bet the business guy will get canned!

The PS3 is the best value in CE. Period. As a consumer the financial decisions are moot. I just wanted to point out that Ken didn't leave because the PS3 was seen as deficient technically.

The way I see it, the PS3 is an awesome platform that sony has to break into the integreted home entertainment market. It is fully future proof and the cell processor isn't close to reaching it's limit. A pity they sold the chip to Toshiba - some would say a deal driven partly due to the format war. Everyone got a little. Who got more, only time will tell

Isn't it a little ironic that the PS3 was a core part of Blu Ray winning, and now the cell provides the best chance for DVD to hit back :)

dazzerxxx

09-10-08, 12:56 PM

I In any case I highly doubt that AV purists will ever be on board with a player that applies aggressive post processing to enhance the image. This type of product is for those who would consider buying the $5.99 DVD to the $ 29.99 Blu Ray. Folks like myself :)

If you're already in love in Blu Ray and are not interested in DVD, this sort of product is not going to do it for you. Ever! So, if you're here on the SD thread, there is only one reason. Because it is highly unlikely you would have bought this product. Or am I missing something?

I have Blu-ray, HD DVD and SD DVD. I enjoy all the formats and still buy SD DVD from around the world. That doesn't mean I don't care about how the image looks even with SD DVD so any product claiming to imporve things is of interest to me on any format.

I'm not sure wanting basic things like good deinterlacing etc makes someone a purist rather than just an AV enthusiast. Also I'm not sure why attempting to establish what a product does well and not so well causes such emotion and innuendo amongst posters. :)

D

briankmonkey

09-10-08, 01:30 PM

av.pallino

09-10-08, 01:33 PM

Well said.

What has been your experience with this player?

Josh Z

09-10-08, 03:24 PM

I agree with your views on sharpness enhancements but could you tell us how you tested the deinterlacer performance? I don't think there has been much discussion about this on this thread yet. Unlike other features, you can't turn off the deinterlacer, and so this is a higher concern for me. I guess from your remarks that the deinterlacer is not as good as the Oppo983. Which specific tests does this player fail?

There are test discs to measure deinterlacing performance. The most popular is the HQV Benchmark (http://www.hqv.com/benchmark.cfm). I also have a test DVD created by Stacey Spears and Don Muncil of the Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/) site.

The XD-E500 passes the most basic 3:2 cadence test, and does acceptably on the waving flag test, but fails most of the jaggie tests. It also fails tests for mixed-source content (e.g. video-generated titles on top of a film-based movie) and pretty much any video cadence outside of basic 3:2.

What this means is that the player's deinterlacing is adequate for well-mastered, film-based movies. But if you watch video-based or mixed-source content, jaggie artifacts will be prominent.

In terms of "real world" content, much anime programming is authored using non-standard cadences. It's very common for original Japanese titles to be replaced by video-generated English text that runs at a difference cadence than the animation beneath it. This is a significant deinterlacing challenge.

Josh Z

09-10-08, 03:29 PM

PFC5

09-10-08, 04:03 PM

There are test discs to measure deinterlacing performance. The most popular is the HQV Benchmark (http://www.hqv.com/benchmark.cfm). I also have a test DVD created by Stacey Spears and Don Muncil of the Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/) site.

The XD-E500 passes the most basic 3:2 cadence test, and does acceptably on the waving flag test, but fails most of the jaggie tests. It also fails tests for mixed-source content (e.g. video-generated titles on top of a film-based movie) and pretty much any video cadence outside of basic 3:2.

What this means is that the player's deinterlacing is adequate for well-mastered, film-based movies. But if you watch video-based or mixed-source content, jaggie artifacts will be prominent.

In terms of "real world" content, much anime programming is authored using non-standard cadences. It's very common for original Japanese titles to be replaced by video-generated English text that runs at a difference cadence than the animation beneath it. This is a significant deinterlacing challenge.

So there is no absolute measurement but just visual result based measurement right? We cannot measure the increased ringing using the sharp feature of the player with ruler measurements?

I have never watched Anime and personally have no interest in it, but I know some (few?) do, so for them this would not be the player for those who watch such content. That could explain that swinging pendulum arrow picture from Germany shown then right?

How does this player do with Video based animation like The Incredibles, and other such content?

PFC5

09-10-08, 04:08 PM

In my experience, most people that buy big-screen TVs do so because they want to watch a big picture. Telling them that the picture from this player only looks good if they move their seat back twice as far as they normally sit from the TV is damning the product with faint praise.

Phrased that way I agree that it makes no sense to movie the seats. I think he was saying that many/most people are further and sometimes much further than the recommended viewing distance for the screen size viewed. In those such instances this player COULD create the illusion of a sharper more detailed picture that many might find pleasing.

One constant issue with recommended viewing distances is that the distances for SD material compare to HD material is different. In the real world of an awful lot (vast majority of) content available being still in SD, people really should have their seats on rails to move closer for HD and further away for SD material, but I cannot see many people doing that. :lol:

briankmonkey

09-10-08, 04:15 PM

Doug G

09-10-08, 04:34 PM

The XD-E500 passes the most basic 3:2 cadence test, and does acceptably on the waving flag test, but fails most of the jaggie tests. It also fails tests for mixed-source content (e.g. video-generated titles on top of a film-based movie) and pretty much any video cadence outside of basic 3:2.

What this means is that the player's deinterlacing is adequate for well-mastered, film-based movies. But if you watch video-based or mixed-source content, jaggie artifacts will be prominent.

I wonder if this explains what I'm seeing with scrolling text, then? This would make sense if the credits were different from the theater release and/or subsequently edited and put on the disc using video mode with no or incorrect flags. That would explain why the very capable deinterlacer in my Elite RPTV handles them so well and the player fails miserably. This would also explain why I've never seen any really egregious jaggies on filmed text or objects during any of the movies I've watched in 1080p/24F mode if the flags were good. But the opening titles I'd expect to be purely film based. I guess the difference was much less noticeable, so maybe that was just my eyes playing tricks on me. I'll have to do some more detailed tests tonight and follow up.

As a brief aside, I noted the Secrets Guide listed Spider-Man as having 136 3:2 cadence breaks and also errors on chapter points, yet I only recall seeing 1 or maybe 2 obvious problems due to these, and both were fleeting at best.

What kind of experiences are others having with layer change speed? I haven't noticed they're distracting at all thus far. Actually, I think I've even only detected it on 1 disc out of the last 5-6 I've watched!

Josh Z

09-10-08, 05:26 PM

So there is no absolute measurement but just visual result based measurement right? We cannot measure the increased ringing using the sharp feature of the player with ruler measurements?

You are confusing two different issues. My last post was referring to deinterlacing tests, not to edge ringing.

In any case, if I told you that a halo was 10 cm thick (I just made that number up), that number would only be relevant to you if you have the exact same size screen that I do. Also, the intensity of the halos will vary from shot to shot depending on the content of the image. So you'd have to be looking at the exact same thing I am on the exact same size screen.

If my wife hadn't recently lost our digital camera, I'd try to take photos off my screen showing the difference in halo size between this player a comparable model. The XD-E500's issues with freeze frames not being real frames would probably complicate that, however.

I have never watched Anime and personally have no interest in it, but I know some (few?) do, so for them this would not be the player for those who watch such content.

The player's inability to pillarbox 4:3 or non-anamorphic aspect ratio content also makes it useless for anything other than anamorphic 16:9 DVDs.

How does this player do with Video based animation like The Incredibles, and other such content?

The Incredibles was made for theatrical release at the standard 24 fps rate. The DVD has a solid 3:2 cadence. There shouldn't be any deinterlacing issues there.

reincarnate

09-10-08, 05:43 PM

There are test discs to measure deinterlacing performance. The most popular is the HQV Benchmark (http://www.hqv.com/benchmark.cfm). I also have a test DVD created by Stacey Spears and Don Muncil of the Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/) site.

The XD-E500 passes the most basic 3:2 cadence test, and does acceptably on the waving flag test, but fails most of the jaggie tests. It also fails tests for mixed-source content (e.g. video-generated titles on top of a film-based movie) and pretty much any video cadence outside of basic 3:2.

What this means is that the player's deinterlacing is adequate for well-mastered, film-based movies. But if you watch video-based or mixed-source content, jaggie artifacts will be prominent.

In terms of "real world" content, much anime programming is authored using non-standard cadences. It's very common for original Japanese titles to be replaced by video-generated English text that runs at a difference cadence than the animation beneath it. This is a significant deinterlacing challenge.
Well, post which contains some helpful information. Nice. The failing of the diagonal test is the area which the player offers mediocre performance as I stated over a week ago...
Now were down to just rare and non-standard foreign titles. Maybe we should buy the $3500 Denon player to reproduce these weirdly mastered titles properly? I mean I also watch flag waving constantly too.
In other words were being led astray again. Remember this play is superior to ALL other players even the $3500 Denon which cannot output films at their native rate - both shot and mastered at 24Hz.

dazzerxxx

09-10-08, 05:44 PM

Also, if you want good deinterlacing, it is more important to see what the end result looks like. Who watches a film thinking about deinterlacing? I know some watch with abit rate meter on. But that is besides the point.

If this reviewer was so holy, how come the screen captures are of paused images. What was he trying to prove? That the player was terrible? Given that, we are to expect his deinterlacng tests were kosher? Please.....

It's really very simple that poor deinterlacing affects the end result and you don't need a meter to see the artefacts it can cause. That last thing I want to be bothered by are deinterlacing arftects when watching a movies. :)

Just in case you missed the earlier post (#643) the German reveiw site confirmed the images of the deinterlacing tests were in motion not paused (emphasis mine) -

" > From: "Redaktion HDTV-PRAXIS" <redaktion@hdtv-praxis.de>
> Date: 2008/09/10 Wed AM 11:25:33 GMT
> Subject: AW: Toshiba XDE500 short review question
>
> all pictures of the deinterlacing tests are taken in motion . It looks on the
> screen exactly how the pictures look. The deinterlacing of this player is
> very bad and a shame. We talk to Toshiba, he knows the problem but he "

D

av.pallino

09-10-08, 05:44 PM

"people really should have their seats on rails to move closer for HD and further away for SD material"

LOL, I get that already with my couch on my hardwood floor when the stoppers come out after cleaning ;)

Or as I do, I resize the image on my screen since I use an HTPC. That's one reason why I seldom use standalone players for DVD anymore, although the LG BH 200 is outstanding as an up-converting solution and the Toshiba XDE probably the sharpest and most close to HD that I have seen any SD DVD look on a full screen.

I have noticed jaggies on text, but text is not the main content that I am focusing on. For me, the main problem with the XDE is it's inability to handle 4:3 content (which includes a lot of my daughters movies), which unfortunately even the BH 200 does not do well.

One thing that good up-converting has achieved for many people, even those who own HD formats, is that price now matters. I will pick an SD DVD for $9.99 over a $24.99 Blu Ray disk any day of the week for 99% of titles. At my Best Buy, the gap is usually much more. Would I buy Ice Age on Blu Ray? Sure! But not when I can get the DVD for $12.99 and the Blu Ray is $ 34.99 in the same store. Can't justify it.

IF I had to choose between giving up Blu Ray playback or DVD on my set up. I would give up Blu Ray. Hence, for me a good DVD solution is very important. For HD I already have Apple TV and Cable. I can live with that since the costs are minimal.

Now IF my experience with Blu Ray rentals with Netflix was good, it may have been a different story. But after long waits on anything I wanted to watch and seldom getting more than 2 disks shipped in any week, it was just not worth it. Usually on the weekends I had nothing from them. They would show up on Monday and Wednesdays and I'd mail them in on Thursday or so and nothing.....until the following week. Funny thing is even IF I mailed my disk on Tuesday, I would be really really lucky to get the next one on Saturday. And my Blockbuster which is a couple of miles away costs as much to rent as Apple TV and the selection is a LOT worse.

nextoo

09-10-08, 05:47 PM

I believe the XDE will pillarbox 4:3 material if set at 480p. Defeats the purpose a bit but far from "useless".

av.pallino

09-10-08, 05:50 PM

It's realy very simple that poor deinterlacing affects the end result. You don't need a meter to see the artefacts it can cause. That last thing I want to be bothered by are deinterlacing arftects when watching a movies. :)

Just in case you missed the earlier post the German reveiw site confirmed the images of the deintelacing tests were in motion not paused (emphasis mine). -
" > From: "Redaktion HDTV-PRAXIS" <redaktion@hdtv-praxis.de>
> Date: 2008/09/10 Wed AM 11:25:33 GMT
> Subject: AW: Toshiba XDE500 short review question
>
> all pictures of the deinterlacing tests are taken in motion . It looks on the
> screen exactly how the pictures look. The deinterlacing of this player is
> very bad and a shame. We talk to Toshiba, he knows the problem but he "

D

I read that. But EVERY image they have on their site is a poor one. Since they took the de-interlacing tests in motion, how about the overall results?

I can see where you are coming from and what you want to see. That is certainly your prerogative here. But I have seen this player in action and there is not tearing of the image as those tests show. So, something is different between my experience and what they are reporting. Now, is the deinterlacing perfect on this player? Absolutely not! The limitations of the Zoran are well known. This is not a great deinterlacer. And I too agree they should have used a better processor. However, having said that, the end result is pretty good. I know you don't want to hear that part. OK. I get it. This player is not for you. I am sure it is not for your friends either. You have no interest in seeing an actual image or even commenting on it other than the deinterlacing images :)

nextoo

09-10-08, 06:21 PM

What exactly does pillarboxing 4:3 mean?

I'm sure I have my terms wrong but it was my understanding that the XDE will display 4:3 content in its correct aspect ratio - meaning it will not stretch it to fill the 16x9 screen - when set at 480p.

I returned my XDE so I can't personally test it but I did pick this up in one of the forums.

By the way I thought the XDE did a great job. I decided to stay with a reon HQV based machine but for the price I thought the XDE performed as advertised.

bruceames

09-10-08, 07:58 PM

Phrased that way I agree that it makes no sense to movie the seats. I think he was saying that many/most people are further and sometimes much further than the recommended viewing distance for the screen size viewed. In those such instances this player COULD create the illusion of a sharper more detailed picture that many might find pleasing.

One constant issue with recommended viewing distances is that the distances for SD material compare to HD material is different. In the real world of an awful lot (vast majority of) content available being still in SD, people really should have their seats on rails to move closer for HD and further away for SD material, but I cannot see many people doing that. :lol:

From what I've been reading and my own experience, I think the ideal screen size to viewing distance ratio for this player is between 1.5:1 and 2.5:1. Edge enhancement will create ringing, which largely disappears to the naked eye when you move outside 1.5:1 ratio. However most front projector owners I think sit inside this ratio so they will notice it more and thus be less satisfied with the player. Sitting 10 feet away from a 100 inch screen is like sitting 4 feet away from my 50" plasma. I doubt hardly any plat panel owners sit that close to their display. It would be interesting to have a poll which could try to correlate player satisfaction to the owner's distance/screen size ratio setup.

PFC5

09-10-08, 08:23 PM

From what I've been reading and my own experience, I think the ideal screen size to viewing distance ratio for this player is between 1.5:1 and 2.5:1. Edge enhancement will create ringing, which largely disappears to the naked eye when you move outside 1.5:1 ratio. However most front projector owners I think sit inside this ratio so they will notice it more and thus be less satisfied with the player. Sitting 10 feet away from a 100 inch screen is like sitting 4 feet away from my 50" plasma. I doubt hardly any plat panel owners sit that close to their display. It would be interesting to have a poll which could try to correlate player satisfaction to the owner's distance/screen size ratio setup.

I believe you are correct about the screen size/viewing distance ratio being a big part of whether someone might like this player or not. Most average people do not have FP systems and in fact from reading/helping people figure out which display to buy, most people want to get screen sizes that are much smaller than they should be to even resolve the HD resolutions from their viewing distances planned.

I think THIS would be likely the majority of people just getting into HDTVs now and the market this player is targeting.

nextoo

09-10-08, 08:30 PM

It will show a 4:3 picture with black bars on the sides like my screen shots. Are you saying that stretching it full width, and cutting off the top and bottom is what some are after?

I have no idea what "some" are after.

I posted that the XDE will display the correct 4:3 aspect ratio with 4:3 content if set to 480p. I read posts in this thread that stated that the way the XDE handled 4:3 content (stretching it on a 16x9 screen) was a deal breaker. The XDE was "useless" as a result of this.

I simply pointed out that when set to 480p it was my understanding that the XDE handles 4:3 content properly - meaning the correct 4:3 aspect ratio which is a pillarboxed image on a 16x9 screen. A pillarboxed image (black bars on the left and right side of a 16x9 screen) is the correct way to display 4:3 content - this is a good thing.

J4yDubs

09-10-08, 09:45 PM

How many people freeze frame a movie and look at the screen with a microscope.
Have you been reading the same AVS as I have? :D

I remember having this argument back in 2002. :p

John

Josh Z

09-10-08, 09:48 PM

Well, post which contains some helpful information. Nice. The failing of the diagonal test is the area which the player offers mediocre performance as I stated over a week ago...
Now were down to just rare and non-standard foreign titles.

I'm not just talking about "rare and non-standard foreign titles". I only used anime as an example of a typical deinterlacing challenge. Anime content is very popular, and it's quite likely that there will be owners of this player expecting to watch their anime titles on it. However, that is not the only deinterlacing challenge a DVD player will face. It's just a common one.

The XDE player trips up on any video-based or mixed-source content. Now, maybe you only watch big-budget Hollywood movies from major studios and absolutely nothing else. For you, poor deinterlacing performance may not seem very important. However, do not confuse your limited needs with those of everyone else. Most viewers like to watch a variety of content on DVD, and a decent DVD player needs to be versatile enough to handle that. The XD-E500 is not.

Maybe we should buy the $3500 Denon player to reproduce these weirdly mastered titles properly?

It doesn't require a $3,500 player to have good deinterlacing. There are players in the same price range as the XD-E500 that handle this function properly.

Remember this play is superior to ALL other players even the $3500 Denon which cannot output films at their native rate - both shot and mastered at 24Hz.

The 24 fps output option is just one function on the player. In itself, that doesn't make up for other failings. I'd rather see a ringing-free image at 60 Hz than an image covered in ringing at 24 fps.

pastmaster1993

09-10-08, 10:25 PM

I have a simple question, how does this player stand up against other upconverting players in the $70.00 to $199.00 range. I don't care if it's not true HD but are there others in that range that are better?

Thanks, Dave

av.pallino

09-11-08, 07:26 AM

I'm not just talking about "rare and non-standard foreign titles". I only used anime as an example of a typical deinterlacing challenge. Anime content is very popular, and it's quite likely that there will be owners of this player expecting to watch their anime titles on it. However, that is not the only deinterlacing challenge a DVD player will face. It's just a common one.

The XDE player trips up on any video-based or mixed-source content. Now, maybe you only watch big-budget Hollywood movies from major studios and absolutely nothing else. For you, poor deinterlacing performance may not seem very important. However, do not confuse your limited needs with those of everyone else. Most viewers like to watch a variety of content on DVD, and a decent DVD player needs to be versatile enough to handle that. The XD-E500 is not.

It doesn't require a $3,500 player to have good deinterlacing. There are players in the same price range as the XD-E500 that handle this function properly.

The 24 fps output option is just one function on the player. In itself, that doesn't make up for other failings. I'd rather see a ringing-free image at 60 Hz than an image covered in ringing at 24 fps.

In a nutshell. Movies made for the theatre will look excellent on this player. XDE will have an advantage over other similar players. For other types of content XDE is not the appropriate solution.

tommy_smith

09-11-08, 09:25 AM

There are test discs to measure deinterlacing performance. The most popular is the HQV Benchmark. I also have a test DVD created by Stacey Spears and Don Muncil of the Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity] site.

The XD-E500 passes the most basic 3:2 cadence test, and does acceptably on the waving flag test, but fails most of the jaggie tests. It also fails tests for mixed-source content (e.g. video-generated titles on top of a film-based movie) and pretty much any video cadence outside of basic 3:2.

What this means is that the player's deinterlacing is adequate for well-mastered, film-based movies. But if you watch video-based or mixed-source content, jaggie artifacts will be prominent.

In terms of "real world" content, much anime programming is authored using non-standard cadences. It's very common for original Japanese titles to be replaced by video-generated English text that runs at a difference cadence than the animation beneath it. This is a significant deinterlacing challenge.

I have the HQV benchmark disc and I am surprised by your observations. I looked at the sequence of various film cadences (the one with two guys in the pub). I assume that if you don't see the cups jumping up and down, that means the player has detected the film cadence. The XDE seemed okay to me for this test. The test disc also has the mixed material test (the last test) where scrolling text appears on the screen. The text looked smooth enough to me and did not look like the "fail" mode they show for comparison. I guess the jaggies tests may be a big subjective but at least the first two should be pretty clear. Am I missing something here?

PooperScooper

09-11-08, 10:07 AM

I have the HQV benchmark disc and I am surprised by your observations. I looked at the sequence of various film cadences (the one with two guys in the pub). I assume that if you don't see the cups jumping up and down, that means the player has detected the film cadence. The XDE seemed okay to me for this test. The test disc also has the mixed material test (the last test) where scrolling text appears on the screen. The text looked smooth enough to me and did not look like the "fail" mode they show for comparison. I guess the jaggies tests may be a big subjective but at least the first two should be pretty clear. Am I missing something here?

How does it do on the race track clip? (That's on the HQV disc, isn't it?)

larry

av.pallino

09-11-08, 10:16 AM

I have Blu-ray, HD DVD and SD DVD. I enjoy all the formats and still buy SD DVD from around the world. That doesn't mean I don't care about how the image looks even with SD DVD so any product claiming to imporve things is of interest to me on any format.

I'm not sure wanting basic things like good deinterlacing etc makes someone a purist rather than just an AV enthusiast. Also I'm not sure why attempting to establish what a product does well and not so well causes such emotion and innuendo amongst posters. :)

D

To give you the benefit of the doubt (why not :)). You do realize if you take motion pictures with a low shutter speed you'll get the results the German posted. Right?

First, ask yourself are you trying to find an objective review of this product, or are you here to find fault with it? The intention is everything, because you'll be able to find dirt on almost anything if you dig deep enough (that is why Google is so great :))

Doug G

09-11-08, 10:56 AM

I pulled out Minority Report last night and watched most of it in 480p mode over the component outputs to my Elite. I specifically chose this film due to all the text and graphics which is constantly in motion (billboards, the pre-crime workstation, etc.) I didn't see even the slightest hint of a jaggy edge or shimmering artifacts on any of the moving text or graphical objects during the film. It seems reasonable that movie credits on DVD releases would need to be updated from the theatrical release, and that this would be done in a video environment. I think this is likely the cause of the issues I saw on Gladiator and SW1 credit rolls yesterday. Again, I've never seen anything that obvious that was a consistent problem during the actual movie.

Is anyone else experiencing 1-2 audio and video dropouts? Several discs I've played seemed to do this towards the end of the movie, always within the last 15 minutes or so. Wondering if it could be a firmware glitch or possibly a drive or other HW problem. Player is well ventilated and cool to the touch even after being on for 2 hours. The first few times it happened a rewind/replay wasn't able to reproduce, but last night in a section of Minority Report it was consistent. I didn't see any obvious scratches or marks on the disc. I gave it a quick wipe anyway and when I put it back in now that section played fine. (The scene where Anderton's wife is tying Lamar's bowtie.) I'm really skeptical that I wiped anything away since I didn't see anything to begin with. Very interested to hear if others have seen this.

How does it do on the race track clip?

I have on loan from Ron the anamorphic version Super Speedway and did watch it on the RS1 in 1080p/24 mode about a week ago. No moire or jaggies evident in the stands that I detected.

In a nutshell. Movies made for the theater will look excellent on this player. XDE will have an advantage over other similar players. For other types of content XDE is not the appropriate solution.

Well said. If you almost exclusively watch theatrical film based DVDs, want very good upconversion, and 24fps output for a reasonable price, this player is for you. On the other hand if you have lots of video based or 4:3 discs, this player isn't for you due to the average deinterlacing capabilities.

Josh Z

09-11-08, 11:24 AM

How does it do on the race track clip? (That's on the HQV disc, isn't it?)

It has aliasing for about a full second before it locks into the cadence. I'd consider that "average". Not good, not terrible, just average. Personally, I hope for "good" from the DVD players I buy. :)

Josh Z

09-11-08, 11:28 AM

I have the HQV benchmark disc and I am surprised by your observations. I looked at the sequence of various film cadences (the one with two guys in the pub). I assume that if you don't see the cups jumping up and down, that means the player has detected the film cadence. The XDE seemed okay to me for this test. The test disc also has the mixed material test (the last test) where scrolling text appears on the screen. The text looked smooth enough to me and did not look like the "fail" mode they show for comparison. I guess the jaggies tests may be a big subjective but at least the first two should be pretty clear. Am I missing something here?

On the scrolling text test, the "fail" example the disc demonstrates is a little misleading. The next time you try it, don't just look at the text, but also at the strings of the guitar. A good deinterlacer will reproduce both the text and the strings without jaggies. The XD-E500's deinterlacer locks onto the text and ignores the strings.

av.pallino

09-11-08, 12:09 PM

Yikes! :eek:

Anyone still want to deny that the "Sharpness" mode adds a lot of ringing?

The test pattern looks terrible. However, how does that translate to an actual movie image? I haven't seen anything that shows that level of ringing in the movies. Remember we are talking about a product that is optimizing. Adding sharpness is also adding ringing. Now, the question is what it is doing to an image you see on the screen.

I will agree. That if this sort of ringing shows up in a moving frame, the product will be unwatchable without 3-D glasses :D

No doubt the de-interlacer on this chip isn't close to being top tier. That was a mistake in my opinion as well.

bruceames

09-11-08, 12:16 PM

Yikes! :eek:

Anyone still want to deny that the "Sharpness" mode adds a lot of ringing?

Sure, if you get close enough. This player has limits, and viewed from a reasonable distance the ringing disappears to the naked eye. I don't see it on my 50" plasma from 8 feet away (and I'm not blind, thank you). For those who need to watch from real close or have a huge screen, I guess this player is not for you (at least in sharp mode). IMO that portraying the player's PQ deficiences as 'normal' from a very abnormal viewing distance is very misleading.

JohnnyG

09-11-08, 12:25 PM

One constant issue with recommended viewing distances is that the distances for SD material compare to HD material is different. ...people really should have their seats on rails to move closer for HD and further away for SD material, but I cannot see many people doing that. :lol:

Though your comments are still valid, the recommended viewing distance for SD was based on how far away you need to sit so as not to notice the interlaced line structure of a 480i display. For HD, the recommendation is based on the image filling a certain percentage of your field of vision

Since SD material is rarely displayed at 480i today - almost always being upconverted to HD resolution, the old formulas go out the window and as far as I know, there is no "official" recommendation for seating distance when viewing SD material upconverted to HD although 5x the picture height is mentioned often enough (the recommendation for HD is 3.3x the picture height)

acegamer

09-11-08, 12:27 PM

...

Is anyone else experiencing 1-2 audio and video dropouts? Several discs I've played seemed to do this towards the end of the movie, always within the last 15 minutes or so. .....

I have experienced the same thing on a few of my discs. I've watch several movies with no problems but on a few of them the movie would freeze for a second or two. It also normally happended towards the end of the movie. I had one movie, The Notebook, that froze and would not continue beyond a certain point at all. I think that it may have been a difficult disc layer change point because I put the movie in another dvd player and it also had a hiccup at the same chapter but managed to play on through it. That's the only movie that has done that though and I've watched at least 10 movies on it so far.

I am still really pleased with the image quality of the player, even on my big projection screen.

Doug G

09-11-08, 01:04 PM

Anyone still want to deny that the "Sharpness" mode adds a lot of ringing?

There's plenty of ringing in the first image.

I don't own a DSLR, but I will try to get my hands on a digital camera which is better than my 2MP Canon Elph point-n-shoot and take some photos using a tripod of the Avia sharpness pattern at 1080p, from my viewing distance, head on to the screen, and post the raw images. Might take a few days to do this depending on how long it takes me to borrow a decent digital camera. Unfortunately the RS1x lacks a freeze mode but if I can find some relatively static images that don't change during normal play, I'll try to take some before and after pics of those scenes, as well. My experience with the XDE sharpness mode has been much more akin to the mouse-over SW pics posted earlier in this thread.

dazzerxxx

09-11-08, 01:19 PM

To give you the benefit of the doubt (why not :)). You do realize if you take motion pictures with a low shutter speed you'll get the results the German posted. Right?

First, ask yourself are you trying to find an objective review of this product, or are you here to find fault with it? The intention is everything, because you'll be able to find dirt on almost anything if you dig deep enough (that is why Google is so great :))

I'd like to know both its faults and strengths. According to the reviewer those images are indicative of what he observed on screen. Can the US model support PAL DVD ? :(

D

Doug G

09-11-08, 01:37 PM

kbgl - I removed the GI-GO comment from my post above after realizing that it could be any additional processing being used to display on your PJ that might be the cause. Based on the first picture I'd say that your sharpness might be set a little too high in the unit, and that's caused some of the ringing that's evident. The image on the Avia disc is clean.

I have no objection to the pictures being up, but I tend to think for most who have 720p or 1080p displays they may not be as relevant as using those resolutions. I admit that I haven't followed your process very closely after reading that your display was only 480p as I kind of felt it didn't apply to me. So you're feeding 1080p to the PJ and using a 1:1 pixel mode to display just the central part of the image? That might be reasonable. I also agree that the distance you are from the extrapolated picture size you figured (150") is kinda close and may also exaggerate somewhat compared to what would normally be seen at an appropriate viewing distance.

Doug G

09-11-08, 01:41 PM

The sharpness pattern can be photographed without pausing. Can you play a jpeg image on the XDE?

Yes, I realize this. I meant other screen images from actual movies like the SW pics poster earlier. I'll have to try to find some scenes where there's no movement for a few seconds.

I also wholeheartedly agree with your statement that no one should be judging overall PQ from anything being posted here. They're only useful in a relative manner to draw general (not definitive) comparisons.

av.pallino

09-11-08, 01:48 PM

I'd like to know both its faults and strengths. According to the reviewer those images are indicative of what he observed on screen. Can the US model support PAL DVD ? :(

D

Another mistake by Toshiba. Poor PAL implementation.

Overall, the XDE in it's current form is not a total DVD solution and in that regard I agree with Josh. If I only had to live with one DVD Player, not sure the XDE would work for me either. But it has it's uses and is not close to the disaster the German site portrays it as.

Josh Z

09-11-08, 02:03 PM

I'd like to know both its faults and strengths. According to the reviewer those images are indicative of what he observed on screen. Can the US model support PAL DVD ? :(

The US model can easily be made region free and will play PAL discs, however it forcibly converts them to NTSC before scaling. The PAL-to-NTSC conversion is terrible. Every PAL disc I played was filled with jaggies and aliasing.

Doug G

09-11-08, 03:33 PM

kbgl - I just remembered my next door neighbor recently bought a new Nikon DSLR so I'm hoping to borrow it. Not sure I'll get the PJ turned on tonight, we'll see. I hate to turn it on for less than 2-3 hours at a stretch, which can be tough on weekdays, since it makes me feel like I'm unnecessarily using up my lamp. Its not the hours, but number of strikes that generally determines how long it will last so I like to maximize each viewing session as much as possible. Sometimes I'll even watch stuff I wouldn't ordinarily just so I don't feel guilty about turning it off too early! Amazing the things a $300 light bulb will make you do, eh?

I completely understand re: the sharpness setting. I dare not even try my P&S since the field of view is so wide I'd have to be about 4' from the screen to get it to fit edge to edge! What white balance mode to people find is most accurate/effective for taking these kinds of shots?

Definitely this weekend I should have a chance to do this.

BTW, I don't have DVE, only Avia......

p.s. Hey I just noticed you said the *exact* same thing I did in that quote above! ;)

Deja Vu

09-11-08, 10:15 PM

We need some more screen shots of the XDE in action where the projector can freeze the image. The screenshots I've seen so far of actual images from a movie look O.K. - no noticeable ringing, but a few more pictures with sharpness on and then off would be helpful. A few seconds go by and lo and behold my request was answered! I don't see ringing problems, but maybe I'm blind - might be a slight halo in front of Heath Ledger's forehead in the first photo or am I imagining things (or caused by the camera?)?

monomer

09-12-08, 01:51 AM

Though not really that noticeable, if you look at that first picture the guy on the left from the forehead on down, nose, chin etc. you can see the edge ringing. Darker profiles against a lighter background really show-up the edge ringing. But if you notice how much sharper the image is, I think its worth it.

dazzerxxx

09-12-08, 02:40 AM

Sharpness on
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/sharp_1080p.jpg

Sharpness off
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/off-1.jpg

Haven't studied them in much detail but look at the guys hair on the left hand side of the image between the sharpness on/off shots. Are the photos of the DVD at the same time stamp ?

D

acegamer

09-12-08, 07:23 AM

Haven't studied them in much detail but look at the guys hair on the left hand side of the image between the sharpness on/off shots. Are the photos of the DVD at the same time stamp ?

D

The position of the guy on the right in the photograph changes so the time stamps are different.

kbgl

09-12-08, 09:05 AM

Haven't studied them in much detail but look at the guys hair on the left hand side of the image between the sharpness on/off shots. Are the photos of the DVD at the same time stamp ?

D

Since I pause with my projector, the movie continues to play while I take a picture. I tried to take some shots that were close to the same, but it's harder to do than it looks.

Doug G

09-12-08, 11:06 AM

kbgl - Nice shots. I think even these photos show that there's no appreciable ringing evident in normal viewing. I, too, noticed that one area in the first shot of Ledger's dark profile against the light background, but I'm not convinced it wouldn't have looked any different with sharp mode turned off. Areas of extremely high contrast like this are simply prone to ringing just by their very nature.

I will try to borrow a decent camera this weekend, and post some shots in 1080p/24 mode using my RS1x. I'll do my bet to get similar shots with XDE on and off so comparisons are easy. If anyone knows how to make those mouse-over shots, can you PM me?

I ran the deinterlacing mode tests last night in 480i/p modes using the component output to my Pio Elite 510. for those who may not know, this HDTV actually exhibited the best performance for deinterlacing in the initial Secrets P-Scan shootout. Its a shame the later Pio DVD players weren't able to realize the same (or even a close) level of performance. Its one of the main reasons I had no issues buying a RP91 which used the original Genesis flag-reading deinterlacer - any problems and I could simply change output to 480i and let the set work its magic. I used the widescreen version of Super Speedway (ch. 6) and the original version of Gladiator (DTS version, ch. 12.) The results were as follows:

1) Super Speedway ch. 6, car going by empty stands - I replayed this about 30 times constantly switching back and forth and there was not even the slightest picture difference in which device did the deinterlacing - no moire, no jaggies, no artifacts of any kind. I also didn't see any 1s delay as Josh indicated above, but then again I was using the actual DVD and playing from 5 seconds before this scene. If the clip on the test disc starts right at the point where the stands are visible, I can see how it might take a second or so to lock in. I'm assuming this clip is on the HQV disc and that's what he used. (I don't own nor have I ever even seen it so I don't know.)

2) Gladiator ch 12, beginning and end Rome flyover sequences - First the flyover at the end of ch. 12. It should be noted that most progressive DVD players, even some high end ones, fail this test. I haven't located exactly what the issue with this part of the DVD is but it has to be either incorrect or missing flags, or mixed/video mode editing issues. On this, the Elite outperformed the XDE handily. Using the XDE, jaggies were clearly visible on the diagonal roof edges. Also, the roof in the lower right corner exhibit some moire, although I didn't see this in other roofs. Interlaced mode artifacts were also visible on the top edge of the stadium as the pan proceeded. The Elite showed none of these artifacts. There's another flyover at the beginning of ch. 12 that I also used and here the results were a bit more mixed. Using the XDE, it almost always (4/5) got things right during the high altitude flyover, but then fell to pieces during the subsequent pans of the bird statue and building, as well as the pan down at the start of the parade. All the buildings showed jaggies at the edges of the rooftops. The Elite was exactly the opposite! It couldn't lock on during the high altitude flyover as evidenced by jaggies on the rooftop edges, but as soon as the clouds parted and the downward pan of the bird statue/building begin it locked into film mode and was perfect for the remainder of these scenes.

IMO, these results confirm what has already been said, this is a player with acceptable deinterlacing performance for film based material. Sure, its possible to get better deinterlacing performance through high end players or external video processors, but usually at a substantial increase in cost. For me, eliminating the 2-3% of problems I may see and which are clearly the exception and not the rule in film based DVDs can't even begin to be justified at the huge increase in cost (Think 983 at 3x the price the XDE can be had for on some web sites now.) I know my XDE ain't perfect, but I'll be keeping it. The price/performance considering the XDE and 24p just can't be beat for my application.

Josh Z

09-12-08, 11:20 AM

1) Super Speedway ch. 6, car going by empty stands - I replayed this about 30 times constantly switching back and forth and there was not even the slightest picture difference in which device did the deinterlacing - no moire, no jaggies, no artifacts of any kind. I also didn't see any 1s delay as Josh indicated above, but then again I was using the actual DVD and playing from 5 seconds before this scene. If the clip on the test disc starts right at the point where the stands are visible, I can see how it might take a second or so to lock in. I'm assuming this clip is on the HQV disc and that's what he used. (I don't own nor have I ever even seen it so I don't know.)

Yes, I was using the clip on the HQV disc, and it starts with the stands visible.

PooperScooper

09-12-08, 11:42 AM

IMO, these results confirm what has already been said, this is a player with acceptable deinterlacing performance for film based material. Sure, its possible to get better deinterlacing performance through high end players or external video processors, but usually at a substantial increase in cost. For me, eliminating the 2-3% of problems I may see and which are clearly the exception and not the rule in film based DVDs can't even begin to be justified at the huge increase in cost (Think 983 at 3x the price the XDE can be had for on some web sites now.) I know my XDE ain't perfect, but I'll be keeping it. The price/performance considering the XDE and 24p just can't be beat for my application.
Doug,
If you have DVE, go to the first Snell and Wilcox test pattern (the one with the red and blue triangles in the center of the left half). What do the sides of the triangles look like? If you don't have DVE, nevermind. :) Josh, I bet you have it.

larry

kbgl

09-12-08, 01:01 PM

Here's an enlargement of photo 1

No_U-Turn

09-12-08, 02:04 PM

Here's an enlargement of photo 1

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/ENLARGEMENT1.jpg

My first question would be: Maybe it is already on the DVD? Some dvds do have edge-enhancement. ;)

kbgl

09-12-08, 02:51 PM

It looks like it could even be something in the background. Either way, it's pretty minor.

Deja Vu

09-12-08, 03:57 PM

A few seconds go by and lo and behold my request was answered! I don't see ringing problems, but maybe I'm blind - might be a slight halo in front of Heath Ledger's forehead in the first photo or am I imagining things (or caused by the camera?)?

Looks like I wasn't imagining this EE! It could easily have been on this disc and the sharpening the XDE does just makes it a little more visible. It might also be an edge that is part of the background. I suspect it is EE that was originally on the disc. I'm looking forward to the RS1 screenshots!

Josh Z

09-12-08, 04:08 PM

It looks like it could even be something in the background. Either way, it's pretty minor.

It is neither part of the background nor minor. Instead of looking where the arrow is pointing, look at the giant honking halo around the tip of his nose.

kbgl

09-12-08, 04:09 PM

I will take more pictures of that scene or something similar.

jerryg25

09-12-08, 04:14 PM

kbgl

09-12-08, 04:17 PM

It is neither part of the background nor minor. Instead of looking where the arrow is pointing, look at the giant honking halo around the tip of his nose.

OK... At least now I know what your looking at as a flaw. I see it in the enlargement, but I can't believe anyone would see it in the actual picture at anything approaching a "normal" distance. I'll get better pictures.

hitchfan

09-12-08, 04:47 PM

I like this player for regular dvd playing but it is poor at playing backup dvds. I had several that would not load that played fine on my 983 and Sony. I tried the same disks on my toshiba a30 and had the same results as the 500. It appears that Toshiba players in general do not like burned dvds.

Jerry, I always noticed on earlier Toshiba DVD player cartons that DVD+R was never listed as a compatible format for playback on them. DVD-R was listed, but not DVD+R. I have loads of DVD+R backups so I never seriously considered buying a Toshiba for that reason alone.

I e-mailed Toshiba about this recently and their response was that all current Toshiba DVD players are compatible with DVD+R media, including the XD-E500.

But your post tells me there is still a DVD+/-R backup media bug in there somewhere.

May I ask which you had problems with, DVD-R, DVD+R or both?

Also, which brand and speed of DVD+/-R media did you test?

Thanks.

monomer

09-12-08, 04:58 PM

You can also see some ringing at the top of the same guy's collar in the back... also the right shoulder (looking at the guy) of the man standing in the background with the knife. However I maintain that at normal viewing distances these are not a problem and even at closer than normal viewing distances it will not bother the 'normal' people at all... the problem I did have was when the ringing of several edges come together it makes details look really weird. You can't really see this too well at a normal viewing distance but if you get up closer to the screen and 'eyeball' anything where several of these rings come together (this is typically seen in the smaller details in background objects where many edges come into close proximity) the true shape of those things become terribly distorted and if it should happen to be a focal point at some point in the movie then it can be rather distracting if you are sitting up close. THIS is the reason why I've stated from the outset that at viewing distance of 2.5X all the weirdness in the smaller details in the background can no longer be seen and thus becomes moot. The edge ringing in foreground objects are so far from one another that effectively the ringing is not noticed or even looked upon as a defect by most people who are interested in actually watching the movie... as opposed to those OCD types who are constantly performing minute inspections, obsessing over details and always questioning every little thing as to whether it is from the source or player or display or the cables etc... that kind of obsession will make it so you will never be able to properly enjoy any movie, ever! Again, it should always be a given that any method of increasing the apparent sharpness that does not exist in the source will always create some artifacts (its not always edge ringing but regardless of what type of noise created, its an artifact)... so... ITS ALWAYS GOING TO BE A TRADE-OFF! get it? That's the price paid for increased sharpness. The real question is at what point is that trade-off not considered worth it... and to that end, these photos are attempting to allow neutral observers and potential XDE buyers to determine that for themselves... a much better alternative than someone aggressively trying to sway/scare people with ridiculously exaggerated photoshopped pictures and screaming about unwatchable distortions in the picture at any distance and the sacrilege of a player that would dare create any artifacts irrespective of the increased sharpness obtained. I think these photos of what the XDE can do pokes holes in all those scare tactic postings... now each person can decide for themselves what is too much and what is just right. I think this thread is finally turning helpful to those wishing to 'take the leap'.

jerryg25

09-12-08, 05:05 PM

Most of my are on Memorex 2.5 dl but had trouble with Sony and Dynex single layer too. All are plus. I have a couple minus might try copy on that and see if it plays.

Josh Z

09-12-08, 11:07 PM

OK... At least now I know what your looking at as a flaw. I see it in the enlargement, but I can't believe anyone would see it in the actual picture at anything approaching a "normal" distance.

I'm sorry, but you would have to be a completely uncritical viewer to miss a halo that significant at any viewing distance.

I'm really growing weary of the "normal distance" mantra being incessantly repeated in this thread. It simply isn't true. The edge ringing that this player produces is noticeable at any reasonable screen size and viewing distance. The only way you could not see it is if you deliberately go out of your way to not look for it. Which is what a lot of people seem to be doing.

If that's what it takes for you to enjoy the player, then I hope you do. But please don't have any illusions about this player putting out a picture that is actually "better" than other DVD players, when measured in real objective terms. Because it just doesn't.

However I maintain that at normal viewing distances these are not a problem and even at closer than normal viewing distances it will not bother the 'normal' people at all...

The edge ringing in foreground objects are so far from one another that effectively the ringing is not noticed or even looked upon as a defect by most people who are interested in actually watching the movie... as opposed to those OCD types who are constantly performing minute inspections and questioning everything as to whether it is from the source or player or tv... that kind of obsession will make it so you will never be able to enjoy any movie ever.

monomer, what you've just told us is that you don't care about the difference between good picture quality and bad picture quality. You're a "normal" person and just want to watch the movie. Well, good for you. That's not your priority. I understand where you're coming from, even if I don't share that attitude.

Personally, I do care about good picture quality. I have a large DVD collection that I'd like to get some more use out of on my large HD screen. For that, I need a good DVD player that can upconvert the image without adding a lot of ugly artifacts. Unfortunately, the XDE player adds far too much edge ringing to meet that need. The artifacts are too distracting and take me out of the movie. I have other DVD players that do a better job without adding so much ringing.

What I will never comprehend is why a group of people making apologies for the edge enhancement artifacts this player causes would need the player in the first place. If you're not bothered by edge ringing, and actually like the superficially "sharper", edgier picture that the e.e. causes, you can get the same effect by turning up the Sharpness setting on your TV. You don't need a new DVD player at all. Any old DVD player will work. Crank up that Sharpness setting and it will give you the fakest "sharp", edgiest picture your eyes can stand. Voila! I've just save you $150. You can thank me later. :)

kbgl

09-12-08, 11:25 PM

Here's one from my dvd recorder. I love Pepsi:)

I did have some FF and RW problems with this disc that could be caused by the Poloroid DRM 2001G recorder. NEXTOO might know. This is the one with a hard drive that he posted about swapping drives.

PHOTO 8
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/Untitled-31.jpg

kbgl

09-12-08, 11:29 PM

Any........... .:) Edit. Sorry! Shouldn't have said that.

Josh Z

09-12-08, 11:47 PM

Any credibility you had just went bye-bye.

You can believe that if you want to. My credentials and experience are a matter of public record. I don't hide behind an anonymous screen name.

Deja Vu

09-13-08, 12:24 AM

Zosh, my wife says you need to get a life! :D

btiltman

09-13-08, 03:18 AM

Any credibility you had just went bye-bye.:)

Why?

comixguru

09-13-08, 03:41 AM

Looks likes you have a player that sharpens with edge enhancement. What's actually wrong with that... isn't this the sorta thing that videophiles are calling for? Don't play with the source. Let us play with the player or display to give us the option of EE when it makes sense.

BTW, Josh Z., you to me seem like a person on a mission to discredit this product at all costs. Whatever you think you are, whatever your credentials, this is how you CLEARLY appear in this thread to me.

-comix

ratbones

09-13-08, 05:26 AM

I'm at a dilemma...for upconverting do you guys think the xd-e5000 upscales better or comparable to the tosh A30?

reincarnate

09-13-08, 06:58 AM

You can believe that if you want to. My credentials and experience are a matter of public record. I don't hide behind an anonymous screen name.
Typical member reputations don't matter much. However as a professional the more you post excessively here the more you forge into peoples minds to actively and immediately not like any of your future writings. For this reason virtually ever other professional writer/reviewer carefully chooses when to post and avoid spitefully making enemies. You Josh are the exception because you cannot simply state your opinion and leave it at that. Instead you seek to dominate this thread by sheer number of postings.
What does this have to do with science? Why am I thinking propaganda?
Even worse the wives don't like you :p

If you don't like the sharpness control set to ON then simply turn it off. Or recommend it be turned off. Ok? Its that simple.

So why the crusade Josh? The only logical answer is that your gang depends upon high definition for its livelihood. But we consumers can choose not to support your forced attempts to control our pocketbooks. With the sour economic times most consumers cannot afford $40 discs and $1000+ players. Instead they fell much better paying $5. Do you want me to post pictures of the three new $2000 Blu-ray CEDIA players?

I know times must be desperate for your publishing company, as I get offers to subscribe to Home Theater and Stereophile for ~95% off. :p

Do you want me to start posting Kris Derrings favorable writings of the Vaddis chipsets used in the Toshiba and many other quality DVD players? :)

The Beautiful Secret
-------------------
The unique beauty of this player is that almost all discs are shot and mastered progressively. Therefore the image degradation brought on by deinterlacing and interlacing player performance do not matter if played back at the mastered and and capture rate - 24p or 30/60p.
Skipping these processing steps improves picture quality immensely. I watched The Incredibles last evening and really enjoyed the clear, yet fast animation. A first. Also there is NO noise whatsoever.

Again if you don't like the sharpness control then simply turn it off.
Why not, for the first time enjoy the 24Hz playback from DVD :cool:
If you really cared about picture quality you would focus on this unique aspect alone.

For myself the Toshiba XDE-500 has been wonderful purchase as it gives considerable new found pleasure to watching my existing 500 disc DVD collection. As a result, the urge to buy new Blu-ray discs has subsided just as Sony is raising discs prices.
The $150 Toshiba will allow me to defer or cancel many future Blu-ray purchases. Now there is now no good reason to justify an upgrade. I figure to save about $4000 a year. (This must terrify the industry). Sorry guys.

Its always beneficial for the consumer when a new products extends the usefulness of our software investment. Now we can use the savings to budget for higher energy and food costs.

Deja Vu

09-13-08, 08:31 AM

Typical member reputations don't matter much. However as a professional the more you post excessively here the more you forge into peoples minds to actively and immediately not like any of your future writings. For this reason virtually ever other professional writer/reviewer carefully chooses when to post and avoid spitefully making enemies. You Josh are the exception because you cannot simply state your opinion and leave it at that. Instead you seek to dominate this thread by sheer number of postings.
What does this have to do with science? Why am I thinking propaganda?
Even worse the wives don't like you :p

If you don't like the sharpness control set to ON then simply turn it off. Or recommend it be turned off. Ok? Its that simple.

So why the crusade Josh? The only logical answer is that your gang depends upon high definition for its livelihood. But we consumers can choose not to support your forced attempts to control our pocketbooks. With the sour economic times most consumers cannot afford $40 discs and $1000+ players. Instead they fell much better paying $5. Do you want me to post pictures of the three new $2000 Blu-ray CEDIA players?

I know times must be desperate for your publishing company, as I get offers to subscribe to Home Theater and Stereophile for ~95% off. :p

Do you want me to start posting Kris Derrings favorable writings of the Vaddis chipsets used in the Toshiba and many other quality DVD players? :)

The Beautiful Secret
-------------------
The unique beauty of this player is that almost all discs are shot and mastered progressively. Therefore the image degradation brought on by deinterlacing and interlacing player performance do not matter if played back at the mastered and and capture rate - 24p or 30/60p.
Skipping these processing steps improves picture quality immensely. I watched The Incredibles last evening and really enjoyed the clear, yet fast animation. A first. Also there is NO noise whatsoever.

Again if you don't like the sharpness control then simply turn it off.
Why not, for the first time enjoy the 24Hz playback from DVD :cool:
If you really cared about picture quality you would focus on this unique aspect alone.

For myself the Toshiba XDE-500 has been wonderful purchase as it gives considerable new found pleasure to watching my existing 500 disc DVD collection. As a result, the urge to buy new Blu-ray discs has subsided just as Sony is raising discs prices.
The $150 Toshiba will allow me to defer or cancel many future Blu-ray purchases. Now there is now no good reason to justify an upgrade. I figure to save about $4000 a year. (This must terrify the industry). Sorry guys.

Its always beneficial for the consumer when a new products extends the usefulness of our software investment. Now we can use the savings to budget for higher energy and food costs.

I agree with much of what you say; however, you seem to make the same mistake Josh makes, being too much hyperbole! BD discs aren't $40 (well, 99% aren't) and BD players don't cost $1,000 (at least 95% don't) just like the images Josh posted do not look like the images produced by the XDE. Once you engage a person's BS meter it's hard to turn it off. Every time I see a Sony DVD vs. BD demo at BB my BS meter gets turned on - the DVD I watch never looks that soft! Toshiba is a target for sure and maybe it deserves it, but why do Sony and others get a pass for their wild claims (upconverting players) and rigged demos? Toshiba has said this player isn't competition for BD yet ALL the reviewers who pee on it claim this is EXACTLY what Toshiba is claiming! This is simply not true and an attempt to obfuscate reality and goes directly to THE REVIEWER'S credibility. There's a huge industry push for BD and why? Show me the money! BD's a great product, but I suspect the industry would be happy to sell it to someone who doesn't own an HDTV and who doesn't plan on buying one.

joed32

09-13-08, 08:49 AM

Most of my are on Memorex 2.5 dl but had trouble with Sony and Dynex single layer too. All are plus. I have a couple minus might try copy on that and see if it plays.

I have a bunch of SL -R Maxells that I burned with a DVD recorder and all of the ones I tried will play.

reincarnate

09-13-08, 09:27 AM

I agree with much of what you say; however, you seem to make the same mistake Josh makes, being too much hyperbole! BD discs aren't $40 (well, 99% aren't)
Go down to the local bookstore or "Bestbuy" and see for yourself. Add the sales tax.
If you buy mailorder you still pay $28 for the new Ironman. Sam's charges a big dollar less than BestBuy. I have purchased Warner discs lately which are quite reasonable. But $40+ for for Close Encounters is ridiculous as the production costs were paid 30 years ago. They hope the review hype will sell the product.

That being said Sony has made a small breakthrough in portable DVD players in offering a nice unit with a full DVD resolution screen (800*480). Finally! Customers are very happy with its performance:
http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B00139R1TA/ref=cm_cr_pr_helpful

The point being here is you typically only see the best performance near the end of the life-cycle, as manufacture have no reason to hold back features and performance anymore. The facts today are DVD players and discs are quite inexpensive and smart consumers should take advantage of it.

In a similar fashion its typically best not to buy the latest generation of computer gear and software as its too expensive and buggy. Or a pain in the arse. The previous generation is half the cost and stable. (There are a few exceptions such as the Sony PS3 with its superb architecture and Ethernet update port.)
If you want to be cutting edge you will pay for it dearly. Its all about making a wise choice based upon lessons learned.

acegamer

09-13-08, 10:36 AM

lujan

09-13-08, 10:42 AM

Zosh, my wife says you need to get a life! :D

Who's Zosh?

Doug G

09-13-08, 10:50 AM

Doug G... You have center stage now. Get crackin with those screenshots.

Well my neighbor with the new Nikon is in Europe on business and since the effective resolution of 1080p is 2.1 megapixels (although slightly different AR) I decided to just get out the ol' Canon S100 2.1MP p&s and try that. I set up my tripod between my center two seats (12' from screen, directly below PJ) this morning just to make sure I could get full-frame coverage of the screen and was able to. If I maximize the screen within the frame, I'm getting near 1:1 pixel mapping. Hopefully this will be good enough. I set my white balance to be cloudy and turned off the flash (naturally) so we'll see how it goes. Please keep in mind my media room is not a dedicated theater and currently has very light walls (will be painting them darker in a few weeks) and this camera is so old I doubt the pics will be truly representative of what the XDE and RS1x are really producing. I'll try to evaluate each image in real time and compare that against what the photos show and offer some commentary if there are drastic differences.

I'll do my best this evening to take some shots of both test patterns from Avia and selected shots from several different movies with sharpness and maybe even color modes enabled. Don't be surprised if I don't post them until tomorrow morning (after the Italian GP is over!) as I'll likely want to sit down with the wife and watch a movie after doing all this.

BTW, I've also played several Maxell SL DVD-R discs with no problems. I don't own any DL discs or burner, so no experience with those.

Josh Z

09-13-08, 11:08 AM

BTW, Josh Z., you to me seem like a person on a mission to discredit this product at all costs. Whatever you think you are, whatever your credentials, this is how you CLEARLY appear in this thread to me.

I don't need to discredit this product. The product's performance discredits itself.

I believe in telling the truth about products like this, and not sugar-coating their very serious flaws. The only "mission" I'm on is to cut through the BS in this thread.

While it seems that the most vocal posters in this thread are those that prefer to blind themselves to the obvious artifacts staring them in the face, I have to assume that there are others reading (but maybe not posting) who would like to know how the player really performs, both its strengths and weaknesses, in factual objective terms.

jerryg25

09-13-08, 11:15 AM

I reburned some of the disks i was having trouble with and they worked fine i believe my dvd rom drive had a problem. Changed it out and reburns ok. Just found out that the remote for the 500 works the Oppo 983 with all the basic functions except off on puts the Oppo readout off but the setup play etc work fine. The Oppo remote will not work the 500 though, strange it is one way so to speak. As far as the remote i guess i can push the off on on the machine. Nice to have a back up for the 983 remote a real plus to go along with the nice picture of the 500.

lexicon1

09-13-08, 11:32 AM

Based on the few glitches mentioned in this thread, some have indicated Toshiba will probably make a firmware upgrade.
How is this done ?
What would be the mechanism to transfer the download to the XDE ?

Josh Z

09-13-08, 11:48 AM

For this reason virtually ever other professional writer/reviewer carefully chooses when to post and avoid spitefully making enemies. You Josh are the exception because you cannot simply state your opinion and leave it at that. Instead you seek to dominate this thread by sheer number of postings.

I don't believe in mincing words. If a product doesn't meet my expectations for performance, I'm going to say as much. I'm sorry if you can't accept that.

If you don't like the sharpness control set to ON then simply turn it off. Or recommend it be turned off. Ok? Its that simple.

What would be the point of owning this player without using the Sharpness control? The Sharpness gimmick is this player's sole reason for existence. Without it, it's just another below-average upconverting DVD player with a soft picture and poor deinterlacing, plus a serious design flaw in the way that it pauses on freeze-frames.

The "Sharpness" enhancement is the main focus of all the marketing and promotion for this product, and is the feature that people in this thread have been praising as if it were the greatest thing to ever happen to DVD.

There is no point is using this player without the Sharpness setting turned on. As such, if we're going to evaluate the player, what we really need to evaluate more than anything else is the Sharpness control. Does it really make the picture "better"?

The answer to that, in my professional opinion, is no. It does not make the picture "better". The artifacts it causes are too big a tradeoff. The "crispness" it adds is all superficial, with no real improvement in the so-called "Extended Detail" that the player's name explicitly promises. And the edge ringing is really objectionable, even at "normal viewing distance".

So why the crusade Josh? The only logical answer is that your gang depends upon high definition for its livelihood.

If you believe that, then you obviously didn't read any of my scathing reviews of early Blu-ray players and discs.

But we consumers can choose not to support your forced attempts to control our pocketbooks. With the sour economic times most consumers cannot afford $40 discs and $1000+ players. Instead they fell much better paying $5.

I'm not trying to force you to do anything. I write for people who care about producing good picture quality on large HDTV screens. Price is a factor, and I have been very critical of overpriced Blu-ray hardware and software. But, at the end of the day, what I care about most is quality.

Quality is the chief measure of value, not MSRP. If the XD-E500 really did what it claims to do (generate "Extended Detail" from DVD discs), I'd be more than happy to recommend it at $1,000 or more.

Unfortunately, in its current state, the player is not even worth the $150 that Toshiba charges for it now.

Do you want me to post pictures of the three new $2000 Blu-ray CEDIA players?

Are you saying there were no overpriced DVD players on display at CEDIA?

Do you want me to start posting Kris Derrings favorable writings of the Vaddis chipsets used in the Toshiba and many other quality DVD players? :)

You go right ahead. I work with Kris. Kris has read my review of the XD-E500. If he disagreed with any of my findings, he didn't say so in his feedback to me or to our editor.

Again if you don't like the sharpness control then simply turn it off.
Why not, for the first time enjoy the 24Hz playback from DVD :cool:
If you really cared about picture quality you would focus on this unique aspect alone.

The XD-E500 is not the first time I've enjoyed 24 fps playback from DVD. The Toshiba HD-XA2 and HD-A35 will output DVDs at 1080p24 resolution. I've also used a video processor that frame rate converts DVD to 24 fps for years.

24 fps playback eliminates 3:2 pulldown judder, which indeed has benefits. However, that benefit is much smaller than the artifacts cause by the XD-E500's excessive edge enhancement. The tradeoff is not worth it.

The $150 Toshiba will allow me to defer or cancel many future Blu-ray purchases. Now there is now no good reason to justify an upgrade.

Only someone who has never experienced the real improvement that true High Definition brings could say that. The difference between the XD-E500's upconverted DVD playback and a good Blu-ray of the same movie is night and day.