XD-E500 Owners thread. [Text View]

Star56

08-22-08, 12:01 AM

A quick review.

Have a XA2, several A2's, A3's and a PS3. Viewed on a 768 and 1080P 50" plasma. 9 feet viewing distance.

Looked at the Indy boxed series and Gladiator.

* Like the XA2, upscaled content does not look like HD. Nobody with any semi-critical eye is going to think that this is real HD. This goes for content upscaled on the XA2 and the E500. The claim that the E500 makes 480i content look like HD is false.

* The E500 does make 480 content look sharper without the classic sharpening artifacts one associates with sharpening. The effect is similar to applying a mild sharpening filter to a TIFF file. The color setting also does not "blow out" the curves to any noticable extent. The effect is mild-moderate.

* I like the look of 480 content playback on the E500 over the XA2. I don't see edge artifacts with sharpening and I find the E500 PQ to be sharper and to my eye more pleasing.

My feeling is that at a lower price point this will be a popular machine among standard DVD users. It does not perform magic. I was hoping for a pseudo-HD effect similar to what is produced when a 1080P signal is downscaled on a ED Plasma panel. It does NOT meet this standard.

I'll probably hang on to it for 480i disks that I own and are not available on BD. The E500 is not a BD killer. It is more like a Oppo assaulter :)

Star56

08-22-08, 01:18 AM

I looked at a few older tranfers...The Man with the X Ray Eyes ( a classic B movie) and The Blue Max.

* The color mode DOES do some funky things on these disks and does not yield a realsitic result. Sharpness and Contrast appears to produce the most natural color/BL output.

* The more I watch the E500 the softer and less pleasing 480 content on the XA2 and PS3 look. Your brain gets use to the extra detail (pseudo-detail?) and the other machines PQ look a tad mushy. The X-Ray eyes DVD is really mediocre in the PQ department. Soft and fairly noisy. The E500 recovers the PQ to a level that I could at least watch it. I immediatly noticed details that I had not in previous viewings.

The E500 will be a keeper. If only to watch more obscure titles not likely to hit BD anytime soon.

One note...I cannot get 4:3 content to display properly. No matter how much twiddling in the menu...it stretches 4:3. Perhaps someone else has a solution.

Another note...The enhancements are only available in 1080. No extended details with 720P.

The Main Event

08-22-08, 01:47 AM

Another note...The enhancements are only available in 1080. No extended details with 720P.

Thanks for noting that. I guess it's useless to have an XDE player if you have a 720p display.

Kage

08-22-08, 01:56 AM

I was planning to get the XD-E500 to do a comparison with my Oppo DV-983H, but I decided not to do it, because I feel it might be a waste of time.

Star56

08-22-08, 02:22 AM

Thanks for noting that. I guess it's useless to have an XDE player if you have a 720p display.

No this is not true. One of my panels is a 768P. Feeding it 1080P24 with sharpness+contrast results in better PQ than my other options. Your display will scale it to 720P.

Damnationdoormat

08-22-08, 05:10 AM

Another note...The enhancements are only available in 1080. No extended details with 720P.
Blah, so much for that. Plus I assume no PAL or multi-region ability, which is absolutely vital to me. My 980H is safe. :D

Also, why do I see stair-stepping artifacts on the XDE shots?

Star56

08-22-08, 05:47 AM

Blah, so much for that. Plus I assume no PAL or multi-region ability, which is absolutely vital to me. My 980H is safe. :D

Also, why do I see stair-stepping artifacts on the XDE shots?

The manual states that the Pic modes will not work with 720P and 480P. At first this appeared to be correct...set the mode to Sharp and 480p/720p will not illuminate...only 1080i/1080p.

BUT I discovered a way around it. If you set the resolution mode to Auto...and connect it to a 768 panel....it outputs 720p AND the pic modes work. I have found that 720P is superior to everything else for 768
(not intuitive..downscaling from 1080i can produce good results with other machines)

I do see the stairstepping in those photos...however in actual viewing from 8-9 feet I can't see them...despite peering closely and looking for them. I didn't pause the video...just playing back...I can't see anything.

I just watched a bit of a few more DVD's ( Lolita, Gattica) and the E500 PQ is better than the upscaling from the XA2 ( at least in my subjective view on my panels and my distance).

My wife has slowly become a PQ snob after years of watching HD. She walked in when I was demoing Gladiator. She spontaneously said
" boy that looks good". There is no question that the E500 does some nice things to many scenes. It just is NOT HD PQ.

When the price gets to the $79-99 range more folks may jump on these.

One other poster said the E500 produced a sharper Pic than the Oppo. Of course there is more to PQ than sharpness.

Grubert

08-22-08, 06:04 AM

I just watched a bit of a few more DVD's ( Lolita, Gattica) and the E500 PQ is better than the upscaling from the XA2 ( at least in my subjective view on my panels and my distance).

Lolita is non-anamorphic letterbox. With no in-player zoom mode like the Oppo, how did you manage to display it properly?

KY Colonel

08-22-08, 07:51 AM

I had a top end Denon Player that got struck by lightning and the video section needs to be repaired. I went to CC and bought a Onkyo DV-SP405(b). I read the posts about Toshiba's new player so I returned the Onkyo and picked up the XDE, Twice. I have a Samsung 720p DLP from 2004. During set up on the HDMI resolution I accidently hit the 24/1080p and my screen of course went black with "No Signal" bar across. I took it back and got another one.

I only got to watch a little of a film "Alone in the Dark" a B movie with a miss cast Tara Reid as a scientist and Stephen Dourif miss cast as a bureacrat Jack Bauer type. This unit does not compete with Silicon Optix/Silicon Image/ABT in my experience but does not cost anywhere as near. I haven't seen the Oppo's but I think they must still be the Batman in Gotham City.

I feel Toshiba has some new technology and this is just the watered down Kool Aid for now.

Stereodude

08-22-08, 07:52 AM

heres few more

Oppo

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s77/vsmextasy/DSCN0305.jpg

XDE all off

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s77/vsmextasy/DSCN0301.jpg

Sharpness

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s77/vsmextasy/DSCN0302.jpg

Color

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s77/vsmextasy/DSCN0303.jpg

Contrast

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s77/vsmextasy/DSCN0304.jpg

HD DVD

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s77/vsmextasy/DSCN0307.jpgSo am I the only one who see the Oppo spanking the Toshiba XDE? Look at the aliasing on the stray strands of her hair with the Toshiba XDE that is not in the Oppo.

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/20/toshibasuckagerg6.th.jpg (http://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?image=toshibasuckagerg6.jpg)

bt12483

08-22-08, 08:08 AM

So am I the only one who see the Oppo spanking the Toshiba XDE? Look at the aliasing on the stray strands of her hair with the Toshiba XDE that is not in the Oppo.

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/20/toshibasuckagerg6.th.jpg (http://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?image=toshibasuckagerg6.jpg)

I would have to concur (at least from the screenshots).

I mean, even though we are talking about a strand of hair (in this occasion), where else (and how often) will this show up? You never know.

Is Toshiba expecting people to pay 2x money to add problems to their picture, instead of remove them with their "smart" filters?

Goatse

08-22-08, 08:10 AM

Well I got a good 5 hours back to back with the Oppo 980H. XDE is sharper at first but after having a good comparison it has a unnaturally sharp picture I didn't like. I can mimic the XDE with the Oppo by turning on the detail enhancer, noise reduction to full and color enhancing on my 60A2000. The Oppo is softer but looks more film like to my eyes. Because the edges are sharper on the XDE, I can see why some would find this player more pleasing. XDE is overtly sharp and at times especially at motion, seems like sharpness turns on and off making the picture soft and sharp every few seconds.
I really wanted to believe that Toshiba came up with something to really improve my DVD collection. This player is not it, "As seen on TV" gimic at best. Mines going back, with no resume, HDMI handshake issues and choking on home made dvds this is useless for me.

Doug G

08-22-08, 08:18 AM

Brought my new XDE over to a fellow AVSer's theater last night to do some comparisons against his XA2 using his RS1 on a 120" screen. At this size, any issues should be obvious. We mainly used WOTW and POTC. We didn't perform and calibration and all noise filtering options on all equipment was disabled.

Overall, we were definitely impressed! The XDE does significantly sharpen up the picture without adding any serious or distracting artifacts. It was very natural looking for the most part and did add both perceived detail and depth to the picture. I would liken the sharpening to a very well done unsharp mask in photoshop, when done properly it only sharpens areas that need it resulting in only enhancement to the picture. Compared directly against the XA2, we found that the XDE sharpened somewhere between the "1" and "2" settings, where "2" did tend to look slightly over-sharpened while "1" was much more natural. However, we were able to mitigate this and essentially reduce the XDE to being equivalent with the XA2 "1" setting by turning down the sharpness control a few clicks on the RS1. This really cleaned up some of the noise and slight over enhancement to make the picture as watchable as the XA2. After having made these tweaks, the two players were indistinguishable from one another at this large size. Considering this player costs as little as it does, the performance was simply amazing. HD? No. But pretty darn close and makes regular DVD immensely watchable at large screen sizes. I wonder if those posters who commented it looked over-sharpened might need to similarly reduce their sharpness settings on their displays as we did to achieve a more natural picture.

There was judder evident when the 24fps setting wasn't in use in both 1080p and 1080i modes. We were unable to tell what mode "Auto" used since his version of the RS1 doesn't report the vertical refresh rate (my RS1x does.) But based on a few wide panning shots we watched it didn't appear to be the 24fps option. When enabled, though, the magic of 24fps was clearly evident as there was no judder in any panning shots or during quick action shots - all motion was smooth and extremely fluid. Again, at large screen sizes like this judder is much more of an issue. So the 24fps mode is very effective and worked without any hiccups in the parts we watched from both these two discs.

We did briefly play around with the "color" and "contrast" settings, but mostly just left it on the "sharp" setting. The contrast setting does appear to change the gamma to a lower value which brings out more shadow detail in dark scenes, and the color option definitely accentuates the greens and blues without messing with flesh tones and keeping the appearance of most things fairly normal. For example, in Pirates, the scene with the green apple in the shots on the Black Pearl, the apple would appear almost neon when the color mode was turned on. Again, we hadn't performed any calibration at all. It would probably take some trial and error to see if calibrating it in this color mode would reduce the tendency to over saturate some of the colors to the point where they had more pop without looking artificial. I'll have to play around with this a bit more over the weekend once I get it hooked up to my setup (RS1x with a slightly smaller 104" screen.)

The settings are fairly limited as others have commented. Also, we found the tray design completely ridiculous - there are no cutouts on the side for you to be able to grab the disc out of the player, you have to either push it up from the bottom of use your finger in the hole to pull it out.

Considering how inexpensive this player is, that if offers a true 24fps mode, and that the sharpening can be made equivalent to the XA2 whose initial cost was almost 5x what this player is, I'd say it makes a very good choice for anyone looking for an excellent upconverting player with 24fps capability without breaking the bank. Definitely recommended. I'll be keeping mine!

p.s. I just saw the comments regarding the aliasing in the hair strands above, and while I do agree they're visible in these still shots, we didn't notice anything like this to be evident or obvious during our viewing session. You can see this is visible in all the XDE shots, even the one with all enhancements disabled, and so its clearly an artifact of the budget deinterlacer in the Toshiba and not a result of any of the image processing. For me, unless I can see it during motion video, its really not a big enough issue to make me give up the very good upconversion and 24fps capability.

Deja Vu

08-22-08, 09:22 AM

Doug G. Thanks for a detailed and honest level-headed review. Based on your review I've decided to pick one up and give it try. If DVD does well on my 92" (diagonal) screen I'll keep it. The fact that you think the XDE looks as good as your much more expensive XA2 is encouraging. In the shots shown above I was discouraged about the XDE's performance against the Oppo until I saw the HD DVD shot. The HD DVD shot didn't look much better than the DVD shots so I now realize these shots are virtually meaningless. I am well aware of the differences between HD DVD and upscaled DVD!

ack_bk

08-22-08, 09:47 AM

Sounds to me that if you already have an Oppo or Silicon Optix player then it is most likely not worth it to get an XDE. But if you are in the market for a good upscaling player the XDE should be on your list. If this thing were $79-99 I would most likely grab one, but I am slowly moving away from DVD to HD content and I would have to retire my HD DVD player to make room for this player in my HT setup. So I will pass. But I don't think I could stop myself if this thing is $79-99 in Q4...

Sam S

08-22-08, 09:56 AM

Thanks for the reviews Doug & Goatse.

Has anyone tried any video based material? Or, the HQV disc to see how it does with bad edits and jaggies?

Rach

08-22-08, 10:22 AM

Goatse

08-22-08, 10:35 AM

So is the XA2 the holy grail of upscaling? I use the A35 and am pleased. However, it appears the XDE will be better? The users complaining about the XDE sharpening and DNR, let's get real. It's 480 content...what else are they going to do. It is peusoHD at best. However, if it is more pleasing to the eye, I'm in!

Well so is the store display torch mode on TV's, XDE is like a butterface. Good from far but far from good. However I do realize that some people do like DNR and Edgy picture so should try it out than to take others opinions.

Rach

08-22-08, 10:40 AM

Well so is the store display torch mode on TV's, XDE is like a butterface. Good from far but far from good. However I do realize that some people do like DNR and Edgy picture so its good try it out than take others opinions.

I like that quote!

That probably is the best you will do with 480. If BDs look like this, that is a different story altogether. Don't misunderstand. I want something that will make the DVD experience better. I'm not expecting BD quality. If Newline's BD releases especially Pan's L are the BD standard, we have a problem...but for 480 content I guess I'm not as picky. So Goatse, would you say it is better than the A35 or the third HDDVD series from Tosh?

cdzie1

08-22-08, 10:50 AM

I use the A35 and am pleased. However, it appears the XDE will be better? The users complaining about the XDE sharpening and DNR, let's get real. It's 480 content...what else are they going to do. It is peusoHD at best. However, if it is more pleasing to the eye, I'm in!

I replaced my A35 with the XDE (I still have an Xbox HD DVD drive) and I'm happy with the decision. For one thing, the time saved by no longer having to wait 20 seconds for a DVD to eject!

I watched a good part of SW Episode III last night and it really benefited from the contrast mode. LOTR’s outdoor scenes really benefited from the color mode. The next step in the evolution of the XDE line is for the player to calculate which mode is better for each frame and switch automatically.

Rach

08-22-08, 10:53 AM

cdzie1,

Was it sharper than the A35? Did it appear to have more resolution? If so, by how much?

westgate

08-22-08, 10:53 AM

So is the XA2 the holy grail of upscaling? I use the A35 and am pleased. However, it appears the XDE will be better? The users complaining about the XDE sharpening and DNR, let's get real. It's 480 content...what else are they going to do. It is peusoHD at best. However, if it is more pleasing to the eye, I'm in!
the holy grail would be the oppo 983h-by a hairs width. and maybe some hi-rent denons.

doug, thanks for your review.
did you try the xde modes with any 720 or 1080i settings as someone else said the modes dont work in the lesser resolutions. only 1080p.

Goatse

08-22-08, 10:56 AM

I like that quote!

That probably is the best you will do with 480. If BDs look like this, that is a different story altogether. Don't misunderstand. I want something that will make the DVD experience better. I'm not expecting BD quality. If Newline's BD releases especially Pan's L are the BD standard, we have a problem...but for 480 content I guess I'm not as picky. So Goatse, would you say it is better than the A35 or the third HDDVD series from Tosh?

I have a ps3, A2 and 980h. I can make it look like the XDE buy turning on the detail enhancer, color enhancer and noise reduction on my TV. After critial viewing, I prefer the oppo picture more, its softer but more natural flim like. XDE looks artificially sharp and colors are too saturated or blown out. XDE does nothing special, its not the spurs engine.

brinyhenry

08-22-08, 11:09 AM

FWIW Aliasing is one of those picture issues that doesn't seem to be a big deal at first, but in real world watching it can rear it's ugly head in a big way. Gladiator is one title that comes to mind.

Rach

08-22-08, 11:33 AM

I have a ps3, A2 and 980h. I can make it look like the XDE buy turning on the detail enhancer, color enhancer and noise reduction on my TV. After critial viewing, I prefer the oppo picture more, its softer but more natural flim like. XDE looks artificially sharp and colors are too saturated or blown out. XDE does nothing special, its not the spurs engine.

Thanks. As I have a relatively new Samsung LNA650 lcd, you may have saved me 149.99.

Blacklac

08-22-08, 11:39 AM

Ronomy

08-22-08, 11:53 AM

How is the noise compared to the XA2? (Was Mosquito NR on or off on the XA2?)

Seems Sharpness on and everything else off could be a nice picture. Perhaps something like an Algolith Flea to control noise would really make this player shine?

I'd really love to see some snapshots from a test disc to see how this thing deinterlaces!

NR was turned off on the XA2 but we did turn it on for a moment. We didn't try a DVD that had excessive mosquito noise. I am not a fan of noise reduction and only use it on sources that need it. The XA2 did seem to clean up the picture a little better even without NR turned on while watching the grainy scenes in WOTW. On clean DVD's we couldn't tell much of a difference. Noise was very low and didn't bother us at all.

Goatse

08-22-08, 11:56 AM

Thanks. As I have a relatively new Samsung LNA650 lcd, you may have saved me 149.99.

you could give it a try. Seems like theres a few people on here that really seem to like it. However mines going back tonite.

cbacklund

08-22-08, 12:03 PM

Blacklac

08-22-08, 12:07 PM

Why would they make this thing not work in a 720P resolution? It seems a bit odd to have to feed the 1080P picture downrezed to 720P on a 720P display. I would imagine that some of the sharpened detail for the 1080P picture might be lost after downrezing to 720P.

Somebody reported that Auto mode, which was 720p for them, made use of those settings.

Mr2Spyder

08-22-08, 12:09 PM

Why would they make this thing not work in a 720P resolution? It seems a bit odd to have to feed the 1080P picture downrezed to 720P on a 720P display. I would imagine that some of the sharpened detail for the 1080P picture might be lost after downrezing to 720P.

It does output in 720p however you cannot use any of the sharpen picture modes (sharpen, color or contrast) which kinda defeats the purpose of using it in 720p if you cant use the extended detail option.

cbacklund

08-22-08, 12:10 PM

Somebody reported that Auto mode, which was 720p for them, made use of those settings.

I'll have to try that, if I can ever get my hands on one of these. Best Buy doesn't seem to be carrying it, and has no idea if they ever will (strange considering how many different Toshiba DVD players they had on display at the store). I don't want to order one online for the obvious reasoning of easy return to store.

Blacklac

08-22-08, 12:11 PM

BUT I discovered a way around it. If you set the resolution mode to Auto...and connect it to a 768 panel....it outputs 720p AND the pic modes work. I have found that 720P is superior to everything else for 768
(not intuitive..downscaling from 1080i can produce good results with other machines)

Apparently they work in 720p... "Auto"

cbacklund

08-22-08, 12:21 PM

Apparently they work in 720p... "Auto"

You would think that if it works with auto mode, why didn't they just make it work when you explicitly set the player to 720P! I would imagine a firmware update down the road could fix that problem, but then why does the manual explicitly state that it doesn't work with 720P?!?

av.pallino

08-22-08, 12:26 PM

I am seriously thinking of getting this to replace the SD upconversion on the BH 200 once I get the BD 300 (for the Netflix player). I don't believe the BD 300 uses the same qdeo chip for upscaling. Also, I am betting the Toshiba will beat my HTPC for DVD.

I'll be able to get a demo from a person today who also has an XA2 and was raving that for some movies the Toshiba appeared better. Let's see....

chachanyc

08-22-08, 12:28 PM

just purchased my xde500 and intially was impressed with the video but after watching xmen the last stand and flipping back and forth to my lg upconversion dvd player i didnt see a difference in video quality i find it very annoying watching a movie and then deciding want picture format looks the best for what scene.this player should have an automatic adjustment the picture quality increases from off to sharpnees to color but increase in quality is only visible when settings are changed within the players own adjustments.compared to my lg cant see a differnecnce but i have plenty more movies to view but still find it annoying changing picture modes during a movie

plissken99

08-22-08, 12:28 PM

cbacklund

08-22-08, 12:31 PM

Here's a crazy ridiculous question. I see it plays xvid (assumed burned onto a CD). Does it clean up those as well?

westgate

08-22-08, 12:32 PM

chachanyc

08-22-08, 12:35 PM

currently have a 92 inch screen with a mitsubishi hc1500 projector and im sitting 14 feet from the screen

Ronomy

08-22-08, 01:16 PM

So it sounds like if you already have an XA2 there is no need to get one of these. One thing strange in Dougs review though. Why was the sharpness on the RS1 on at all? It's common knowledge on pretty much any display that the sharpness be off or in the lowest position.

Sharpness settings will vary on different displays. Some are set for the default position with way to much enhancement and thus you need to lower the sharpness. Others look best in the default position. It has been noted that the sharpness control on the RS1 is very good in its default position. Turning it all the way down yields a very very soft picture.

So in other words default is flat frequency response and below that rolls off the higher frequencies. We used -2 with the XD-E500 and its sharp or enhancing circuit turned on.

Huey

08-22-08, 01:56 PM

Check out the other XDE thread for photos of its inerts: Zoran chipset, nothing impressive. It's just a tweaked, regular upconverting DVD player !!! This may be good for J6P who does not calibrate his display and uses everything out of the box as is. Heck, the Phillips 5990/5992 has sharpness, contrast, and color saturation tweaks for $40-60 with Mediatek chipset, region free, plays everthing, auto-resume, USB 2.0, and pillar-boxing 4:3 content.

Most displays (and some DVD players) allow you to crank up the sharpness, noise reduction, color saturation and achieve the same processed look.

Now if the Oppo 983 comes down to $150, then that would be an incredible value !!!

By the way, Amazon dropped XDE500 price back to MSRP of $150 with free shipping via snail mail and no tax.

WaldorfSalad

08-22-08, 02:48 PM

Will this player pillar-box 4:3 material?

Also, will this player will do PAL-to-NTSC conversion and if it can be made region free (like the Philips, Yamaha, etc. by punching in a code)

Goatse

08-22-08, 02:50 PM

Will this player pillar-box 4:3 material?

nope. Least not on the chappelles show I tried.

westgate

08-22-08, 02:53 PM

currently have a 92 inch screen with a mitsubishi hc1500 projector and im sitting 14 feet from the screen
thanks for response.
i guess this player's not quite as appealing as i first thought it was.
i had my hopes up. not that i really need another player.

Mr2Spyder

08-22-08, 04:06 PM

I was planning to get the XD-E500 to do a comparison with my Oppo DV-983H, but I decided not to do it, because I feel it might be a waste of time.

Why? Please do it. I might just bite the bullet and get the 983. I could always return it (less shipping costs) if I get buyers remorse. I am sure it is a nice dvd player I am just not sure it is $399 nice. I cant wait to get home and put my xd-e500 to work. All this talk now has me interested in the 983 also.

Richard Paul

08-22-08, 04:07 PM

Check out the other XDE thread for photos of its inerts: Zoran chipset, nothing impressive.Just to add to that but it uses the Zoran Vaddis 966 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=14500362&postcount=230) which has been used previously by Toshiba (http://www.videohelp.com/dvdplayers?chipset=Zoran%20Vaddis%20966) and Samsung (http://www.zoran.com/print.php?id_article=227).

Mr2Spyder

08-22-08, 04:15 PM

Okay I am not a technical person but I thought the big deal about the xd-e500 was the ability to sharpen the picture. I thought this was a new feature so why does everyone keep refering to this Old Zoran as being disappointing? I thought this was something new?

Stereodude

08-22-08, 04:25 PM

I would have to concur (at least from the screenshots).

I mean, even though we are talking about a strand of hair (in this occasion), where else (and how often) will this show up? You never know.

Is Toshiba expecting people to pay 2x money to add problems to their picture, instead of remove them with their "smart" filters?It's possible that the Toshiba doesn't out put both fields when you pause it so you see the same field duplicated which causes the aliasing, but... :rolleyes:

Richard Paul

08-22-08, 05:17 PM

Okay I am not a technical person but I thought the big deal about the xd-e500 was the ability to sharpen the picture.Well that is how Toshiba is marketing it but Toshiba has been silent about what hardware they have used in this player.

I thought this was a new feature so why does everyone keep refering to this Old Zoran as being disappointing? I thought this was something new?Well the player and the XDE brand are being marketed that way but that doesn't necessarily mean that the hardware is new.

Richard Paul

08-22-08, 05:43 PM

Just a thought but it would be nice to get some high resolution pictures of the major components on the circuit board so we can see everything used in this DVD player. Someone has taken a picture of the insides of the player but the only thing that could be made out was the main chip.

monomer

08-22-08, 06:01 PM

sage11x

08-22-08, 06:08 PM

Well that explains hair-strand-gate...

I actually tried one of the early zoran vaddis equipped toshiba's (wasn't zoran a bond villan played by Christopher walken?). Seems to me secrets actually gave one of them a decent review.
Picture quality was good. Sharp image. Bright, bold color.
Flaws were poor deinterlacing (jaggies all over) some mild pixel cropping, and one major freezing issue. Movie playback would literally freeze, just stop, EVERY time I watched a film.

I remember liking the player and picture enough to want to keep it but the freezing was a deal breaker... The fact that most zoran equipped players had a 'history' of the same problem didn't inspire confidence in me either.

One thing I will say though- my experience with the zoran is what convinced me that upconversion wasn't just snake oil. It was the job it did with DVD that eventually led me to the oppo 980 and my hd a3.
In fact I never thought the oppo was all that great (my TV uses mediatek, so the 980 image was familiar), I kept it mainly for CD playback. The a3 does all my movie watching.

Looks like the real big deal with the xde is the branding...

rockden

08-22-08, 08:11 PM

I just tried this region free hack for a different toshiba dvd player from videohelp.com and it worked and I'm currently watching a region 2 pal disc on the XD-E500.

XXX.videohelp.com/dvdhacks/toshiba-sd570sa/7379

I don't have enough posts yet to post a link so I replaced the www with XXX.

edit: I just checked a region 0 pal disc and a region 4 pal disc and they also both player after using this hack.

----------------------------------------------------------
Region code hack posted by Miesepies, May 10 2008:
Found out the below hack from the 5970 works on the 570 too.

This was succesfully done on a SD-570SR (yes, the player listed here is 570SA).

Codefree via remote control:

- open the tray
- type 2403960
- press 9
- close the tray
- turn the player off and back on again

It should now play all regions. Tested with region 1,2 and 3 discs.

MidnightWatcher

08-22-08, 11:45 PM

Murilo

08-23-08, 02:54 AM

Murilo

08-23-08, 02:59 AM

So it sounds like if you already have an XA2 there is no need to get one of these. One thing strange in Dougs review though. Why was the sharpness on the RS1 on at all? It's common knowledge on pretty much any display that the sharpness be off or in the lowest position.

As a benqw5000 owner this is not the case. After firmware upgrade the sharpness setting was adjusted. Sharpness using DVE pattern can be turned up until the point of ringing in the image.

Many w5000 have it at 6 and there is no ringing. Before the firmware it was 0, the picture looks the same but needed to be adjusted for some reason something happened after the firmware upgrade.

rockden

08-23-08, 04:00 AM

Serious?? Does it stay region-free after turning it off??

http://www.videohelp.com/dvdhacks/toshiba-sd570sa/7379

Yes, it has stayed hacked after turning it off for me so far.

larrimore

08-23-08, 08:25 AM

Well that explains hair-strand-gate...

Looks like the real big deal with the xde is the branding...

No, it's not the branding. It's the software that Toshiba is using to implement the sharpness/contrast/color tweaks. There is something real going on there. Alot goes beond the chipset used.

larrimore

08-23-08, 08:33 AM

Im a little confused, I understand at 150 this device is excellent.

But does this device with sharpen add ringing? I use HD DVE with my algolith flea which does noise reduction and detail enhancement and turning it up over 3 results in noticeable ringing on the pattern, I would be surprised if this device sharpens without ringing compared to a dedicated processor like the flea from algolith.

For those that compare the xa2 using the color mode did you turn color up on the xa2?

Also couldnt i achieve by adjusting color on my projector.

I would say the holy grail is an ABT, reon, or quedo, device for scaling, and an Algolith flea. I have an a35 with the abt chip, with the flea and noise reduction on the flea is like no other, it actually works without removing detail but settings need to remain low. It leaves the picture looking incredibly clean, like a window. The algolith processor like the flea are there own dedicated processor however to noise reduction, detail enhancement.

I don't see ringing. I also tried the XA2 and it was impossible to get the same effect with the color adjustments. I am sure Toshiba had access to many more adjustments than I. You can really screw up the image in the XA2. Maybe that's why Toshiba gave so few choices- save Joe Average from himself. However, maybe a Reon based XDE is in the cards if this one sells well.

At the end of VHS, Toshiba had arguably the best VCR ever on the planet which contained a similar set of interesting tweaks like this (M series) and was so pleasing to the eye that I bought three of them for the slew of movies I had on VHS. Maybe the same will occur with DVD as it reaches the end of its turn?

bigdaveman

08-23-08, 01:30 PM

Can someone please check to see if this player up converts dvd backups via component video. Thanks

WaldorfSalad

08-23-08, 01:31 PM

WaldorfSalad

08-23-08, 01:31 PM

I'm interested to hear how this player compares with the Panasonic S97 which, for me, has been the benchmark player for several years and that I always end up returning to after trying others.

almostinsane

08-23-08, 02:18 PM

Im a little confused, I understand at 150 this device is excellent.

From everything I've read so far the player is far from excellent and overpriced. It uses a two year old decoder with sharpness and color turned all the way up.

The only people who are saying it looks great are the one who view their set with the vivid setting on or have no way to do a real comparison. I have yet to read anyone sticking in an HQV disc and running it through the tests.

Star56

08-23-08, 05:22 PM

The only people who are saying it looks great are the one who view their set with the vivid setting on or have no way to do a real comparison. I have yet to read anyone sticking in an HQV disc and running it through the tests.

Why do you promote these false notions? I have three HD set ups and none of them are set to vivid. I have hundreds of HD source materials. I know what EE ringing looks like. I really hate DNR.

I like what the E500 does for DVDS.

MidnightWatcher

08-23-08, 05:27 PM

The only people who are saying it looks great are the one who view their set with the vivid setting on or have no way to do a real comparison.
Say wha? I think you're almost... insane! :)

keyoctave

08-23-08, 06:39 PM

I went ahead and bought the player this morning from CC. It is going back tomorrow. I view through a Samsung LN-37A450 TV that I have calibrated with my eyeone display using HCFR. No difference compared to my Sony NS700H player. Watching a variety of movies showed a slight purple shift in color. The user interface is sparse. A $30 DVD player has a better menu. The sharp control does do some good but it's not worth the difference in price (IMHO) . Maybe I had a bad unit, but what a let down. I was hoping for something better from Toshiba.

I believe in what Toshiba is trying to do in giving people with large collections of DVD's the ability to enjoy them longer without having to buy the same movies again in BD. The cost savings is in NOT having to re-purchase the movies, not so much the cost the player. The execution of this is what is lacking. They should have invested more in quality processors and a better user interface, even if it would add some to the cost of the player.

almostinsane

08-23-08, 06:53 PM

Say wha? I think you're almost... insane! :)

lol, probably, or just wrong. It's just what I've gathered from the posts in the 3 or so threads on this player. Maybe I was just expecting too much from it.

btiltman

08-23-08, 07:29 PM

I believe in what Toshiba is trying to do in giving people with large collections of DVD's the ability to enjoy them longer without having to buy the same movies again in BD. The cost savings is in NOT having to re-purchase the movies, not so much the cost the player. The execution of this is what is lacking. They should have invested more in quality processors and a better user interface, even if it would add some to the cost of the player.

But hasnt this already been done by others anyway? I guess they were trying to do it in a low priced unit, which means they cant afford to spend on upmarket processors and such without competing with already established and well reviewed units.

Blacklac

08-23-08, 07:57 PM

Mr2Spyder

08-23-08, 07:57 PM

The only people who are saying it looks great are the one who view their set with the vivid setting on or have no way to do a real comparison. I have yet to read anyone sticking in an HQV disc and running it through the tests.

Wrong. I have this player and am still playing around with it. So far it looks like I am going to keep it. All my display settings are at the movie/no edgehancement setting. My Samsung is set at Movie 1 (I hate DNIE so it is off), Panasonic ae2000 at color 1, my ax-200 at cinema 1 and I adjust if needed the brightness, contrast etc based on DVE. My biggest issue with DVD's are the low resolution and blurriness and this player seems to help in this regard.

hitchfan

08-23-08, 09:32 PM

One thing I've noticed in these kinds of PQ debates is that those of us using Panasonic front projectors almost always achieve better results on whatever new source you throw at it (Is it their Smooth Screen technology?).

It doesn't surprise me that some of the better reviews for the XDE come from people who have auditioned them on Panny FPs.

Kage

08-23-08, 10:24 PM

I bought this dvd player today to compare it to my Samsung BD-P2550 which has the HQV processor in it. The XD-E500 is not any good. I prefer the DVD playback on the P2550. These are the reasons why that I'm going to return it the XD-E500:
1. No dvd resume (which is very important to me)
2. No time reading on the LED display.
3. I feel that the pic mode settings makes the dvd pq detail worse. The sharp mode causes to much sharpness. The color mode adds too much color. The contrast mode makes the image more gray.
4. I hate it when I have to change pic modes in different scences in the same movie.
5. No pillerboxing for 4x3 dvds.

Goatse

08-24-08, 02:40 AM

Lonely Surfer

08-24-08, 03:24 AM

Star56

08-24-08, 03:56 AM

Star56

08-24-08, 06:17 AM

Another happy user http://forum.videohelp.com/topic355600.html

Mr2Spyder

08-24-08, 08:01 AM

those of you enchanted by the XDE... you realize you can get the same results by buying a el cheapo dvd player than adding sharpness on your tv, noise reduction and contrast enhancer right?? XDE dvd player does not have any new magic pq enhancement. I feel sorry for you for some of the suckers that actually thing this thing makes a sharper picture than your oppo.

Okay after extended viewing with the xd-e500 and oppo 971 I have decided to keep the toshiba. I finally was able to get the Toshiba to work with my Terk 3x1 switcher (after trying a different hdmi cable) and have the PS3, Oppo 971 and XD-e500 hooked up to my samsung sp-h710 dlp (720p) projector on a 92inch screen sitting about 12-13 feet away. Call me crazy but I like the sharpness feature on this player. I watched the last half of Munich on the toshiba first and then put it in the Oppo for comparison. The very last scene where the two agents are walking along the shore with the buildings in the background the picture appeared more 3 dimensional on the xd-e500. The picture was smoother on the Oppo "I guess this is what is considered more filmlike" however to me it appeared slightly out of focus and flatter. I did notice on the Toshiba that there were a few scenes where I noticed some graininess/noise to the picture no doubt being applied by the sharpness feature. It was never distracting enough to the point that it bothered me. The picture also seems slightly brighter on the toshiba compared to the oppo which is nice as the Samsung is a little dim. I guess you really need to go with what your eyes and brain are telling you and not get caught up in specs, test patterns and chipsets. I havent really messed with the color or contrast modes however the limited time I spent with them I didnt like. Ill probably only use the sharpness feature. I figure I have the best of both worlds. I can always fall back on the Oppo if I ever get that feeling that the picture is unnatural or too sharp.

Also I know there has been talk about this player having trouble playing DVD-r's. I havent had any problems and have watched two complete movies and tested at least 20 other DVD-r's fast fowarding, freezing etc. with no problems at all.

reincarnate

08-24-08, 09:03 AM

This has been the current trend in digital photography so now too is it for video:

http://www.athentech.com/Images/Homepage_Rotate.gif

http://www.athentech.com/set_main.html

Deja Vu

08-24-08, 09:40 AM

Ever notice that in some films night scenes are easy to view because the director used certain lighting techniques to obtain the detail he/she wanted - artificial or what? If the lighting hadn't been used we wouldn't be able to see much, if anything at all! In fact some night time scenes use "inadequate lighting" and appear murky and you strain to make out anything at all. There is nothing "natural" when it comes to film or photography - processing is a fact of life. All the photos you see in magazines are "altered" and all the movies we see are "changed" to some extent depending on what the director wanted. With gamma correction you can now make those changes yourself - depending on your tastes. Now you have some choice rather than relying on someone else's. Interesting that one of the big selling points of JVC's front projector the RS2 is that it has gamma correction - many hardcore videophiles are making their own changes to how they think their movies should look in their particular home theatres. The purist is often left sitting watching a murky presentation and clinging to the fact it was the director's intent that he suffer so. :D

HPforMe

08-24-08, 09:42 AM

No offense, but I don't think you are going to get much differences from any player on a 37" screen.

Agreed. I prefer much larger displays for any opinion worth its salt.

larrimore

08-24-08, 09:45 AM

Why do you promote these false notions? I have three HD set ups and none of them are set to vivid. I have hundreds of HD source materials. I know what EE ringing looks like. I really hate DNR.

I like what the E500 does for DVDS.

And I am viewing on an ISF calibrated FP, and a properly (Avia) calibrated Panny plasma. Vivid doesn't exist in my world.

larrimore

08-24-08, 09:51 AM

No offense, but I don't think you are going to get much differences from any player on a 37" screen.

I dragged the E500 into my family room and connected it to my 32" Philips- there is little differentiation between it and the Sherwood HTiB connected to it now. Size does matter in these things, I guess.

larrimore

08-24-08, 09:53 AM

larrimore

08-24-08, 09:55 AM

Goatse

08-24-08, 11:31 AM

I have both and we'll agree to disagree. Turning up the sharpness on any of my displays does nothing like this. It is a mess.

turn up the sharpness with noise reduction. On my tv I can replicate the XDE by upping the detail enhancer on the 60A2000 and pumping up the NR .

cbacklund

08-24-08, 02:18 PM

Deja Vu

08-24-08, 04:10 PM

HD_Lantern

08-24-08, 07:39 PM

I still don't understand why the majority of you guys that are not liking it are comparing it to $400 DVD or Blu Ray players. I really think this thing needs to be compared to a cheap player, which is the market that Toshiba is going after. They aren't trying to convince people that Blu Ray isn't necessary. Just that a slightly more expensive DVD player can bring new life to your collection.

Either way, I'll pick one of these up to make my own conclusions as soon as Best Buy carries it.
I think the problem was that Toshiba marketed its new upconversion technology as a potential Blu-ray killer. With discussions of the cell processor and a "revolutionary" technique to analyze multiple frames, expectation were very high -- that it could potentially beat the best upconversion currently available. However, at least with the current XDE model, these expectation were apparently unrealistic as of right now.

PFC5

08-24-08, 09:10 PM

I think the problem was that Toshiba marketed its new upconversion technology as a potential Blu-ray killer. With discussions of the cell processor and a "revolutionary" technique to analyze multiple frames, expectation were very high -- that it could potentially beat the best upconversion currently available. However, at least with the current XDE model, these expectation were apparently unrealistic as of right now.

I am not sure that Toshiba ever actually used that term. I think it was a reporter who took that liberty and it stuck for a while. Maybe that is why SOME hate it so much and have bad mouthed it and any possible future actual SRT player that may (or not) come without seeing it.

I never expected this or possibly some even future SRT player to EVER be able to have near equal PQ with BD or HD DVD. It would be nice to get better processing in the displays to handle the 30:1+ SD channels we will still have to watch over the limited HD content still. If they (or anyone else) can do something like that cheap enough for players also I would be interested IF it actually is a decent improvement.

Right now I am unconvinced if it is worth the money for me yet. I have over 350 SD DVDs so on all but my most favored DVDs I likely will not double format dip to BD. I surprisingly have double format dipped about 15+ movies with another 10-20 more out of the 350+ on SD DVD, but in all honesty, if I had to do it all over again, I would probably only have bought about 200 SD DVDs with Netflix now.

monomer

08-24-08, 09:29 PM

massives

08-24-08, 09:31 PM

I've been playing with the XDE500 for a few days. I'm not a "big gun" home theater enthusiast by any means, so I figure this thread can use an opinion from someone with lower end equipment.

I use a Sammy 720p 32" A450 LCD and a Sony NS700H. Since I can't afford an ISF calibrator, I use a variant of clicq's popular calibration settings (found under "LCD Flat Panel Displays->Official LNXXA550 Calibration/Settings Thread->post#995").

The XDE500 is a mixed bag. Improvement is very dependent on the DVD you're playing. A great DVD transfer like Stranger than Fiction is definitely enhanced with Sharp on. However, if your DVD source material has any EE halos, expect the XDE modes to accentuate those artifacts as well. This is very noticeable on superimposed titles and text such as on Gattaca and Fearless Director's Cut.

I would say the $150 XDE500 does look slightly better than my $60 NS700 overall when Sharp/Color is on. The improvement though is not worth the extra $90 especially with the lack of disc resume, so I returned mine.

My hope is that Toshiba releases a true SRT DVD player in the near future, but all that is unfortunately speculation.

monomer

08-24-08, 09:58 PM

...My hope is that Toshiba releases a true SRT DVD player in the near future, but all that is unfortunately speculation.

Well, expect to pay a far greater premium than a mere $90. BTW, thanks for the honest review...

massives

08-24-08, 10:26 PM

Well, expect to pay a far greater premium than a mere $90. BTW, thanks for the honest review...
i'm willing to pay for it if the improvement is huge.

av.pallino

08-24-08, 10:37 PM

turn up the sharpness with noise reduction. On my tv I can replicate the XDE by upping the detail enhancer on the 60A2000 and pumping up the NR .

I highly doubt the TV Sharpness and noise reduction can achieve this. For Noise reduction I can see how there may be similarities since since the image is being processed to get to a result. But TVS usually don't use any algorithms when you manually adjust color, sharpness or contrast. What the Toshiba is doing is similar to what WinDVD 9 or FFDShow or Nvidia PureVideo HD does when it enhances and upconverts DVD by working on the color, edges and contrast. If someone wants to see how to manually set these to see how they impact picture quality just get ffdshow and try it out!

What we are seeing is a new generation of hardware and software that can improve video and audio quality. I am guessing the next step will be for Toshiba to use this algorithm with a better processor like their cell (or whatever they are branding it as).

There is no way that standard TV colors contrast and sharpness controls can achieve this. This is nothing new. Perhaps new in a set top box, but not in the PC world.

keyoctave

08-24-08, 10:52 PM

ack_bk

08-25-08, 12:02 AM

Same experience here with my 37A450 and NS700. I also returned mine. I would have kept it if the user interface was any good, but it did not come close to the Sony. Maybe it just needs a much bigger screen size to notice any improvements.

Actually I would expect a bigger screen would only make the flaws of EE, DNR, color boosting, contrast boosting, etc all the more apparent. I suspect the XDE would give the best experience on a smaller screen and sitting not too close to the screen.

larrimore

08-25-08, 07:56 AM

After a weekend of movies with this player, I am having a hard time returning it even though I also really like my Oppo for SACD/DVDA. I spent time in my theater last night watching movies and doing an improvised shoot out with other players I own. I'll agree with a previous poster that the XDE is a mixed bag. The performance is not in doubt in my (and members of my family's) eyes and that is really what matters. However, here is the caveat: there are some fairly strict limitations to get the picture that blows you away. In my theater with my 100" screen, the only watchable mode is forced 1080/24. When set to AUTO, I get 720P on my Panny (native rate) and the sharpness makes the XDE look nowhere near as good. In fact, I can see at this setting why some would compare this to setting sharpness higher on the TV. On my 50" Pannasonic plasma, it looks great at 720 and 1080/24, maybe it is the smaller size.

I can say this, I spent about three hours comparing the following and I can rank them accordingly. Of course, YMMV.

A BD played on the PS3 or Sammy 5000 or an HD DVD on the A35 is easily a 10 out of 10 with a properly mastered newer movie. On older films or poor mastering, it can slip anywhere from an 8.5 to a 9.5.

An SD DVD played on the PS3 garners a 5-6

SD on the Samy with Reon 6-7

SD on the Oppo with DCDi (981) 6-7.5

SD on the Toshiba at 720P 5.5-6.5 (on my PJ, not applicable on my plasma where it gets higher scores)

SD on the Toshiba at 1080/24 7.5-8.0

The bottom line on the Tosh from me is that the sharpness at 1080/24 seems to add perceived detail even though that is not really possible- it is a very cool mind trick to add it without any adverse affects. Also, the color setting adds a vibrancy to the picture that rivals the color pallette of HD media but doesn't "blow out the colors like turning the color setting higher on a TV. When the others are compared directly with the Toshiba by switching back and forth, they look blurry by comparison and flat and washed out in the color department-and that was easily recognized by everyone who took part in my little experiment over the weekend.

Perfect, no- but worth at least its asking price and a steal at the $100-129 point it most likely will head to soon.

Goatse

08-25-08, 08:32 AM

There is no way that standard TV colors contrast and sharpness controls can achieve this. This is nothing new. Perhaps new in a set top box, but not in the PC world.

well your completely wrong because I tried it on the oppo to replicate it. I don't know what the Sony tv does but "detail enhancer" does the same thing, also to get that boosted color, turn on "live color" and to flatten the picture out I use DNR.

av.pallino

08-25-08, 09:14 AM

All these controls are designed to fool the mind into believing the video is enhanced. That is where the 'science' comes in. After all, a 3D movie isn't really 3D!

Also, the way this player applies the enhancements are very similar to the PC based algorithms such as All2HD that is based off of Nivia PureVideo HD. I can't post a link with my PDA, but you can check out exactly how the sharpness works with images with and without processing directly on top of each other. Some of the WinDVD9 reviews should also have some of those comparisons.

I have an Oppo 970 and I know what it can do in terms of noise reduction and it is not the same as what happens with the latest software products. I checked out the Toshiba last night for an hour or so and I was looking mainly for how the picture was being enhanced. I could easily tell that it was different from the other upconverters since it treated different parts of the picture differently. The sharpness control was identical to what I see in All2HD on WinDVD9.

Whether someone likes the end result or not, is another matter. Whether the Oppo is better or not is also another matter. But the enhancements and controls here work differently and I am guessing with better hardware we will see more and more of this type of implementations. However, I was a little disappointed with the usability. It was too complex for a novice (i.e. which 2 modes to select and different movies benefit from different combinations etc, an Optimized mode - ala QDEO in LG BH 200 would have been nice for the typical end user) and too basic for an advanced user in my opinion. Perhaps they are targeting the middle of the road folks. More likely, Toshiba wanted to play it safe and as a first implementation deliberately kept it sparce.

FWIW, this type of control may be good as a default control in a TV and not just a DVD player.

Doug G

08-25-08, 09:15 AM

larrimore - great comments and analysis. My wife and I watched the movie Conspiracy Theory (she put it the Netflix queue) and aside from the fact that it was a lousy movie, the transfer was excellent. Its an older DVD, no menus or other foolishness eating up space, therefore all space can be devoted to the film. Some of the scenes were as close to HD quality as I've ever seen from a non-HD/BD player. I also viewed some scenes from Back to the Future III, which was a dissapointing transfer, but still managed to look OK, and certainly better with the sharp mode on than off.

On my setup (RS1x onto SeymourAV CenterStage 104" screen) I found the settings we made at Ron's were correct - Sharp mode enabled and PJ sharpness down to -2. I also ended up turning a very slight amount of DNR on (2 out for 30) which seemed to clean up the picture nicely and didn't noticeably soften the picture. Now I wonder if this noise was due to the poor quality transfer of BTTF III which I was using while tweaking around. The color mode was very effective and the scenes at the end of that movie looked great - Clara's bright purple dress and the colored smoke from the smokestack - without affecting fleshtones. I used Avia to due a rough color cal (using the blue view strip) and wouldn't you know it when I turned the color mode on the blue bars went to perfect levels. The RS1 has over saturated colors so without gamut corrections the remedy is to turn the color control down to avoid that sunburned look and artificial colors. For me about -12 works best at retaining enough color while mitigating flesh tones. But this is obviously far from perfect using the flashing blue bars thru the blue filter. When I enabled color mode, the saturation bars went to near perfect levels while maintaining the proper flesh and other neutral tones so I found it to be pretty effective.

I agree the menus are very limited, but in all honesty I hardly ever use them on my existing player. I also don't have any DVD-A or SACDs, so that's not a concern. All I need is a bare-bones video player with good up-conversion and 24fps output and the XDE500 is that. I am happy to report that the player does output 96kHz digital audio from DAD discs. Also, I'm using it no problem on port 1 of the monoprice 5x1 HDMI switcher.

I did have one or two small problems, though. First, while viewing scenes from BTTF III, I somehow got the player stuck in a mode where the picture got shifted to the left about 15%, and the missing part mysteriously appeared on the right hand side separated by a thin vertical black strip. Stopping and re-starting, going to menus, even the stop mode splash screen all continued to display this problem, I had to power cycle to clear it. Anyone ever seen this on this or another Zoran based player? Also, I noticed during several scene cuts, probably near chapter points, that the appearance of some aliasing was obvious for a second or two, probably due to bad flags and it dropping back to video mode (which is a bit disastrous when in 24fps mode, its also creates a very juddery motion.) Both of these discs are on the older side. I found it mildly annoying, but I can probably live with it. For me the benefits outweigh the small issues, certainly at this price point.

av.pallino

08-25-08, 10:01 AM

Actually I would expect a bigger screen would only make the flaws of EE, DNR, color boosting, contrast boosting, etc all the more apparent. I suspect the XDE would give the best experience on a smaller screen and sitting not too close to the screen.

I would say the differences would be more noticeable on a bigger screen. As the screen goes smaller the less noticeable any post processing gets, as long as the content is decent and free from major problems (i.e. most DVD movie releases would fit the bill of content without major problems) - based on my experience.

Also, the overall quality is going to depend on the quality of the source + the decoder (player) + display. The picture is going to be limited by your weakest link in the chain. Products like the Toshiba operate on the source, they have no control on what the display does with the decoded content :)

eganov

08-25-08, 11:00 AM

av.pallino

08-25-08, 11:26 AM

Has anyone done a comparison of XDE vs upconversion on the Sony S350 BD player? With the rumored $100 price drop on the S350 that puts a very good BD player only $150 more than the XDE. Maybe Sony is just responding to Toshiba's continued attempts to breath life into SD DVD but I don't know why one would keep investing in stand alone SD players unless they held a significant performance advantage over a BD players SD performance.

I've tried a number of SD upconverters (and considered this one) only to return them all thinking that I'd rather have invested that money in BD - effectively reducing its cost to me.

From what I saw, the Sony 350 is a very poor upscaler. You are much better off with the PS3. The Sony and the Panasonic Blu Ray players are some of the worst DVD upscalers in the market. The Pioneer with the QDEO has the potential to be at least as good as the LG BH 200 (which in my opinion is for now the best DVD upscaler + Blu Ray combo player).

Having said that. At $299 I would rather have a Blu Ray player with a poor DVD upscaler v. just an excellent DVD player in terms of value. But that is just my perspective. Even the best DVD upscalers today can't match true HD and the title catalogs are improving on Blu Ray. There is going to have to be a huge jump in technology for DVD post processing to be able to compete with Blu Ray.

One idea I have is, since the studios are so loathe to allow us to copy a Blu Ray title, how about allow people to create a DVD version for those who want to copy.

Mr2Spyder

08-25-08, 11:51 AM

I have read a couple of comments that this player does not have a resume function and I am a little confused. Is the resume feature when you stop the player "pressing stop button" and then without powering off later pressing the play button and the movie will resume at the same spot where you pressed the stop button? My player has this type of resume function. Can someone who is saying it does not have the resume feature please explain what you are referring too? Just curious if there is some other type of resume feature out there.

keyoctave

08-25-08, 12:15 PM

One idea I have is, since the studios are so loathe to allow us to copy a Blu Ray title, how about allow people to create a DVD version for those who want to copy.

That would lead to a very good copy!

Another idea is to let us trade in our store bought DVD's for the same BD title at a discount price. How many times must we purchase the same movie because of different formats. I have been through Beta, VHS, S-VHS, Laser Disc, DVD and now they want me to buy Blu Ray? That's why I hope players like this can succeed (even though it didn't work for me).

av.pallino

08-25-08, 12:35 PM

That would lead to a very good copy!

Another idea is to let us trade in our store bought DVD's for the same BD title at a discount price. How many times must we purchase the same movie because of different formats. I have been through Beta, VHS, S-VHS, Laser Disc, DVD and now they want me to buy Blu Ray? That's why I hope players like this can succeed (even though it didn't work for me).

Using modern encoders and codecs, going from 25 or 50 GB Blu Ray to 9GB DVD would do the job and you'd preserve the premium of Blu Ray and it's DRM restrictions while offering the flexibility of DVD.

nextoo

08-25-08, 12:55 PM

Goatse

08-25-08, 12:58 PM

Here's something that may mean there may be more going on under the hood of the XDE-500 than traditional upscaling.

Has anybody checked out the bit rate meter in the XDE? If you press display on the remote twice the bit rate meter shows up. When I compared it to another upscaling DVD player the results were interesting.

In short the Philips 5960 when playing Gladiator (EE) shows bit rates typically in the low to mid single digit range. It will peak close to 10 mbps but that is about it. With the XDE the bit rate meter shows mbps peaks in the mid to high teens. Readings in the peak range of 14 mbps - 18 mbps show up depending on the scene.

Has anybody else checked this out?

wouldn't put much faith in to these "bit rate" meters, especially ones that read higher then spec. Only one that seems accurate is the ps3.

Mr2Spyder

08-25-08, 01:17 PM

Here's something that may mean there may be more going on under the hood of the XDE-500 than traditional upscaling.

Has anybody checked out the bit rate meter in the XDE? If you press display on the remote twice the bit rate meter shows up. When I compared it to another upscaling DVD player the results were interesting.

In short the Philips 5960 when playing Gladiator (EE) shows bit rates typically in the low to mid single digit range. It will peak close to 10 mbps but that is about it. With the XDE the bit rate meter shows mbps peaks in the mid to high teens. Readings in the peak range of 14 mbps - 18 mbps show up depending on the scene.

Has anybody else checked this out?

I wonder if this has anything to do with the scaling filter. According to Amazons product description when the picture mode is set to off scaling is set to Mid and when any of the other three picture modes are activated (sharp, color or contrast) the scaling is set at high. I havent really paid attention to the bit rate but now I am gonna play around with it when I get home

Rach

08-25-08, 01:20 PM

That would lead to a very good copy!

Another idea is to let us trade in our store bought DVD's for the same BD title at a discount price. How many times must we purchase the same movie because of different formats. I have been through Beta, VHS, S-VHS, Laser Disc, DVD and now they want me to buy Blu Ray? That's why I hope players like this can succeed (even though it didn't work for me).

Retailers and the studios would never let this happen...never in a million years.

larrimore

08-25-08, 01:27 PM

I did have one or two small problems, though. First, while viewing scenes from BTTF III, I somehow got the player stuck in a mode where the picture got shifted to the left about 15%, and the missing part mysteriously appeared on the right hand side separated by a thin vertical black strip. Stopping and re-starting, going to menus, even the stop mode splash screen all continued to display this problem, I had to power cycle to clear it. Anyone ever seen this on this or another Zoran based player? Also, I noticed during several scene cuts, probably near chapter points, that the appearance of some aliasing was obvious for a second or two, probably due to bad flags and it dropping back to video mode (which is a bit disastrous when in 24fps mode, its also creates a very juddery motion.) Both of these discs are on the older side. I found it mildly annoying, but I can probably live with it. For me the benefits outweigh the small issues, certainly at this price point.

I had the same shift happen once while messing with the chapter skip button- exactly. I also noticed the aliasing. Both on Lara Croft: Tomb Raider.

nextoo

08-25-08, 01:45 PM

wouldn't put much faith in to these "bit rate" meters, especially ones that read higher then spec. Only one that seems accurate is the ps3.

If you want to write it off as a faulty bit rate meter that's your prerogative.

I just saw 18.6 Mbps flash by the screen. I've never seen that on any DVD player (I haven't seen them all - just on mine). Whether this is an error or an accurate reading I think merits discussion.

If the bit rate meter in the XDE is in fact accurate then a bit rate reading of 18.6 Mbps is noteworthy. I'm not saying the reading is accurate simply posting an observation.

Goatse

08-25-08, 01:55 PM

so now your saying this dvd player actually pulls the data and makes it bigger? DVD video has a max bitrate of 10mb, thats the spec period.

nextoo

08-25-08, 02:10 PM

so now your saying this dvd player actually pulls the data and makes it bigger? DVD video has a max bitrate of 10mb, thats the spec period.

Why is this so difficult to understand. From my previous post:

I'm not saying the reading is accurate simply posting an observation.

bt12483

08-25-08, 02:23 PM

If you want to write it off as a faulty bit rate meter that's your prerogative.

I just saw 18.6 Mbps flash by the screen. I've never seen that on any DVD player (I haven't seen them all - just on mine). Whether this is an error or an accurate reading I think merits discussion.

If the bit rate meter in the XDE is in fact accurate then a bit rate reading of 18.6 Mbps is noteworthy. I'm not saying the reading is accurate simply posting an observation.

Wait wait, so now higher bitrates do matter?

I am so confused....;)

nextoo

08-25-08, 02:33 PM

Wait wait, so now higher bitrates do matter?

I am so confused....;)

Where did this come from?

Doug G

08-25-08, 03:27 PM

I had the same shift happen once while messing with the chapter skip button- exactly. I also noticed the aliasing.

OK, so it would seem I don't have bad hardware. I wonder if this might be something that could be addressed in a future firmware update. I can't even explain what the heck it was doing, although I wonder if it had something to do with 4:3 format. It seemed like it was exactly the width of what would have been the leftmost pillar-box for windowed 4:3 that was transposed to the other side of the screen.

It also makes you wonder, if both of us hit this so readily in such a short time, why didn't Toshiba during their QA cycle?!

While I think the large CE behemoths like Toshiba are generally completely agnostic when it comes to user reported problems, I guess I'll try and report it thru their support site anyway. Never know, we might get lucky.

lujan

08-25-08, 03:33 PM

I am really intrigue by this player and what it may be capable of doing for my 1700+ DVD collection but alas I need to have a player that can also do SACDs and DVD-As and unfortunately the Tosh is unable. Due to my limited number of HDMI connections (4 only) I cannot simply just add this player to my theater without it replacing the Oppo... which does do SACD and DVD-A. The $150 is chump change to me and if it will improve the 'look' of my DVDs compared to my Oppo I definitely would purchase but its got to play my music collection as well... and that's my problem.

I just bought this player (via internet so not here yet), but I would like one besides Panasonic that can do DVD-RAM. The very first HD DVD players and Blu-ray players could do DVD-RAM and then the next generation of players couldn't so I don't know why they stopped.

Star56

08-25-08, 04:26 PM

Mr2Spyder

08-25-08, 04:44 PM

Yes I have noticed the higher bitrates also.

Wow this player not only seems to be addiing edge enhancement but also higher bitrate...lol..impressive. I notice ny PS3 when playing Blu-ray averages in the 20's in the bit rates. I have no idea what bit rate is but I guess higher is better. I will soon be home and able to play around with the bit rate display.

nextoo

08-25-08, 04:57 PM

Wow this player not only seems to be addiing edge enhancement but also higher bitrate...lol..impressive. I notice ny PS3 when playing Blu-ray averages in the 20's in the bit rates. I have no idea what bit rate is but I guess higher is better. I will soon be home and able to play around with the bit rate display.

I'm not sure if I'd go that far. But I'd like to come to some sort of conclusion. Maybe the post processing some how hoses up the meter. I'd be interested in what an email to Toshiba tech support might produce.

av.pallino

08-25-08, 05:14 PM

Wow this player not only seems to be addiing edge enhancement but also higher bitrate...lol..impressive. I notice ny PS3 when playing Blu-ray averages in the 20's in the bit rates. I have no idea what bit rate is but I guess higher is better. I will soon be home and able to play around with the bit rate display.

I believe if the Toshiba is post processing by adding pixels to the image, it would increase the bit rate (also called resampling AFAIK). The bit rate would change depending upon how much information it is adding.

J4yDubs

08-25-08, 05:28 PM

Where did this come from?
There's some pro Blu-ray people in here trying to stir the pot. Some people are having a hard time letting go of the war (on both sides), even though it's over.

John

nextoo

08-25-08, 05:36 PM

Thanks.

I put in Jurasic Park and the bit rate readings are much more what one would expect. The vast majority of the readings are well within what is to be expected - around 8 Mbps with most hovering in the 4 to 8 range. A few pops above 10. Much different than what I was seeing with Gladiator (EE).

acegamer

08-25-08, 06:03 PM

Has anyone experienced any problems with the player freezing at a certain point on any movies? I was watching Star Wars Episode 3 last night and towards the end of the movie it froze for a second or two. I was watching the Notebook and it completely froze and wouldn't get past chapter 11. I put the same dvd in my A35 HD DVD player and noticed that it did hiccup at this point in the movie but it played through it. Has anyone experienced any similar problems? I may take it back and try another unit.

Mr2Spyder

08-25-08, 07:03 PM

reincarnate

08-25-08, 07:25 PM

Gives DVD A New Lease on Life
-------------------------------
Well I just bought the XD-E500 today and overall it sets a new standard for standard definition Dvd playback. Colors and sharpness are at once very involving. You see more visual clues than with any other SD player. For example eyes are perfectly yet naturally sharp.
It's an advance (but no doubt not in laboratory tests) on everyday material over the best deinterlacer/scaler (the Silicon Optix Realta which introduces some softness).
Why? Because it outputs at 24Hz which bypasses many degrading steps of (de)interlacing and pulldown processing in the player and the display. Just spit the enhanced image data out at the record rate like true high definition at 1920*1080@24Hz for film sources and 60Hz for video recorded at 30Hz/60i.
You need to actively set the playback frame rate manually. Its easy to change by selecting the setup key (on the remote) while the disc is playing! I can change from 24Hz to 30 within 10 seconds total down time. Try that with any fortress-mentality-DRM-protected HD players.

The player is very cheaply built (so Toshiba can finally make a profit). Freeze fame is actually freeze field which means you lose half the vertical resolution while in pause mode.
Sound quality is excellent with lots of clarity with no harshness from obvious low levels of self generated internal EMI/RFI.
Its low power consumption and fast response times are a huge advantage.
My initial reaction is this player is a true advance in subjective visual quality, so its a keeper for me. So what if it will be $89 in three months as I happily support companies who lead.

Sam S

08-25-08, 07:41 PM

Because it outputs at 24Hz which bypasses many degrading steps of (de)interlacing and pulldown processing in the player and the display. Just spit the enhanced image data out at the record rate like true high definition at 1920*1080@24Hz for film sources ....

Again, more dis-information. You cannot bypass deinterlacing with a DVD player, movies are stored at 480/60i! Most movies have flags that players use to combine the fields and alternate the frames to get a 60hz output.

No matter how good this player is, it still must read the flag information, or determine the cadence to assemble the 24p output from interlaced fields stored on the disc.

reincarnate

08-25-08, 07:55 PM

Again, more dis-information. You cannot bypass deinterlacing with a DVD player, movies are stored at 480/60i! Most movies have flags that players use to combine the fields and alternate the frames to get a 60hz output.

No matter how good this player is, it still must read the flag information, or determine the cadence to assemble the 24p output from interlaced fields stored on the disc.
You don't know the techniques Toshiba is using so turn-it-off. Think outside the tiny box. Be open minded and buy the XD-E500 and report your observations. Otherwise go find all the $40 bargains on Blu-ray. ;)
There isn't much difference between the many mediocre mastered Blu-ray movies and playback on this player.

av.pallino

08-25-08, 08:02 PM

You don't know the techniques Toshiba is using so turn-it-off. Think outside the tiny box. Be open minded and buy the XD-E500 and report your observations. Otherwise go find all the $40 bargains on Blu-ray. ;)
There isn't much difference between the many mediocre mastered Blu-ray movies and playback on this player.

I would highly recommend anyone who is considering an upconverter to give this player a look. It's certainly different enough in how it approaches the upscaling.

Wasn't Toshiba also the first to create a player to output 480p?

bt12483

08-25-08, 08:20 PM

Sam S

08-25-08, 08:30 PM

You don't know the techniques Toshiba is using so turn-it-off. Think outside the tiny box. Be open minded and buy the XD-E500 and report your observations. Otherwise go find all the $40 bargains on Blu-ray. ;)
There isn't much difference between the many mediocre mastered Blu-ray movies and playback on this player.

It doesn't matter what "techniques" Toshiba uses, the disc information is 480/60i. It is physically impossible to bypass the "steps of deinterlacing" and output a progressive signal straight from the disc.

Wasn't Toshiba also the first to create a player to output 480p?

Yes, the SD-5109. http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=&manufacturer=1&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0#ToshibaSD-5109

nextoo

08-25-08, 08:35 PM

Really? What equipment did you use to test how much leakage there was?

What type of shielding do they use?

Must be superb, huh?

/sarcasm.

What is your deal. You don't own one of these players. You have no intention of ever owning one of the players. This is the XDE-500 owners thread.

If this is some sort of paranoid panic attack from a Blu-ray zealot you are not doing your prized format any favors. You are trashing your own format by giving the impression that its most passionate fans need emotional help.

I own a Blu-ray player. What in the world does that have to do with anything that is posted in this thread.

Give it up. The is the XDE-500 owners thread. Not a playground for 6th grade recess.

acegamer

08-25-08, 09:20 PM

I read earlier that the freezing is due to the Zoran chipset that is inside the player. I havent had any freezing yet but have read others have. Are you playing back dvd-r's or are they regular commercial dvd's?

they were regular commercial dvds. I have also watched several movies without any freezing, so it doesn't happen on all of my discs. OVer the next couple of weeks, if I keep getting it on numerous dvds then I'll return it and try another one.

Mr2Spyder

08-25-08, 09:30 PM

they were regular commercial dvds. I have also watched several movies without any freezing, so it doesn't happen on all of my discs. OVer the next couple of weeks, if I keep getting it on numerous dvds then I'll return it and try another one.

The freezing I read about earlier applied only to dvd-r's so maybe you have a bad player?

piratehunter

08-25-08, 10:13 PM

Does this player have an option to choose between PAL, NTSC and Auto?

bruceames

08-25-08, 10:25 PM

Does this player have an option to choose between PAL, NTSC and Auto?

No, but it will output PAL if you put a region 2 disc in it (after making the player region free, of course). My XA2 is also region free but unfortunately will not output PAL and I use a plasma.

cbacklund

08-25-08, 10:40 PM

I would like to see someone post some more screenshot comparisons. Thanks in advance!

Moks007

08-26-08, 01:24 AM

bruceames

08-26-08, 02:06 AM

I can't believe I bought an oppo 980 a week before this player was released. :( Anyway I'm happy with the oppo 980 but I think I will also buy this player :). Can I confirm if this player can be made region free? Thanks

By the way, I can't believe some people will go about trying to say so many negative things on this player. First of all, its not their money these buyers are spending. :p It's just a 149 dollar upconverting player, what do they expect? Blu fanatics or hidef fanatics (no more dvd viewing right? :rolleyes:) :D may just be insecure:p.. If they give so much crap/issue on this player why don't they say crap about the oppos. They also haven't released a blu-ray player right? Maybe because this is by toshiba, when you say toshiba, its like target practice for some :D

I just got my player today and I'm very happy with it. It doesn't work well with 4:3 discs nor non-anamorphic, so I'll still need my XA2 for those. But on a few anamorphic discs I tried (Ghostbusters and Children of Men), the XDE player produced a nicer picture than the XA2.

The region free code given earlier in the thread did work, and it outputs PAL as well (unlike the XA2).

saintsaints

08-26-08, 06:07 AM

Hmmm, I wanted to wait for super upconversion so I don't have to buy two players.

larrimore

08-26-08, 08:04 AM

As you may know, I have a boatload of HD DVD/BD players (It is a long story, but I can sum it up by saying I bought them all when everyone was dumping HD DVD in February- I bought movies and got the players for virtually nill). So, I have been trying to do comparisons/ratings between this player and most of them. Last night I got around to the LG BH200 and after playing with it, I can get a close approximation of the Tosh with it.

I ended with the BH200 set with max sharpness in the video tweaks and bumped the blue and green color settings from the default 25 to a setting of 30. It gives as close an approximation of the Toshiba as I have seen and I A-B'd them back and forth using two copies of Fast and Furious Tokyo and the players are darn close. Like the Toshiba, the difference only seemed pleasing to me at 1080/24P for some reason. At 720P, both players look a little unnatural. The Samsung with Reon couldn't come close to the BH200 (doesn't have the adjustments), but the XA2 might- I no longer have an XA2, but I do remember on-board tweaks on it.

With the BH200 at $339 at BB this week and 10% coupons all around, it may be a terrific alternative for some of you. It plays HD DVD and Blu Ray to boot and LG has stated it will be upgraded to support BD 2.0 at some time in the near future as it apparently has enough on-board storage. Just FYI

Deja Vu

08-26-08, 08:38 AM

Hmmm, I wanted to wait for super upconversion so I don't have to buy two players.

Me too! I think there's a big market for player that will take DVD to a new level. Does the XDE do this? I'll at least have a look. Former heavy duty HD DVD supporters have now moved to supporting and defending DVD and heavy duty BD supporters want to say only negative things about DVD (and Toshiba since that's all it now supports). Predictable and rather tiresome.

Dave Moritz

08-26-08, 08:59 AM

So am I the only one who see the Oppo spanking the Toshiba XDE? Look at the aliasing on the stray strands of her hair with the Toshiba XDE that is not in the Oppo.

I have to agree IMHO the XDE did not show much of an improvement and the Oppo looked better to me. And the XDE did not come close to matching HD-DVD. I do not see the new Toshiba DVD player ending up in my A/V rack.

av.pallino

08-26-08, 09:16 AM

piratehunter

08-26-08, 10:05 AM

Somebody reported that Auto mode, which was 720p for them, made use of those settings.

Has anyone confirmed that this works? I have a 720 display and I want to make sure I can actually take advantage of the upcon features with my display.

PooperScooper

08-26-08, 10:45 AM

It doesn't matter what "techniques" Toshiba uses, the disc information is 480/60i. It is physically impossible to bypass the "steps of deinterlacing" and output a progressive signal straight from the disc.

Yes, the SD-5109. http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=&manufacturer=1&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0#ToshibaSD-5109

Yes, DVDs are encoded for 480i/60 but it's usually done with the first field repeated twice and the next three times. You only need one of each to deinterlace to a 480p frame. However the 480p frame is the combination of 2 24hz fields which is not the same as 2 24hz frames. Scaling the 480p frame to xxx resolution and outputting will give you xxxp24 instead of outputting it twice and the next frame 3 times for xxxp60 output.

Has anybody thrown any test patterns or clips at it to see how it deinterlaces and handles/filters ICP and other deinterlacing anomalies?

larry

MovieSwede

08-26-08, 11:53 AM

DVDs are encoded 24P with pulldown flags. Just like HD DVD is encoded.

If you let the player bypass the flags it would be possible to upscale the image and output it as 1080/24P.

reincarnate

08-26-08, 12:47 PM

Really? What equipment did you use to test how much leakage there was?

What type of shielding do they use?

Must be superb, huh?

/sarcasm.
Gee a measurement freak. And I'm still waiting for Secrets (now Home Theater) to measure HDMI frequency response. :)
Many systems look and almost all sound crappy today. The situation is improving over time. I've been into high fidelity for over 30 years as a lifelong passion. I don't waste time "proving" anything. If you doubt what is posted here then "turn the channel". :)
The first generation HDMI chips had poor sound quality. Each new generation is sounds better. Again the Toshiba 500 has an exceptional sound-staging and focus with NO harsh irritation.
Its of reference quality. Now lets all see how long it takes for the high definition players to add 24 Hz for SD playback. :) Will the PS3 will be first in about six months? Place your bets.

The fact is this dirt cheap player blows the $3500 Denon model out of the water. This is why you should ignore the commercial "experts" unless you have money to burn.
Remember telecine image mastering is cpatured in progressive mode so the two fields need no degrading motion analysis or (de)interlacing. Just as PooperScooper (thanks for deleting my post this morning) states, just grab the unique fields and toss the duplicates.
Then let the display repeat the entire frame at even multiples of 24hz. Result: no loss, no image degradation. It's a breakthrough day to celebrate!

cbacklund

08-26-08, 01:18 PM

Me too! I think there's a big market for player that will take DVD to a new level. Does the XDE do this? I'll at least have a look. Former heavy duty HD DVD supporters have now moved to supporting and defending DVD and heavy duty BD supporters want to say only negative things about DVD (and Toshiba since that's all it now supports). Predictable and rather tiresome.

Have you guys actually confirmed that this technology not only exists, but is being planned for an actual product other than some oddball laptop? I seem to remember that even that demo video about the laptop couldn't perform the upconversion technology in real time.

It just seems to me that you guys are holding out for some form of vaporware tech that may or may not come to market. And even if it did, anything running a cell processor is going to cost enough money to make you look ridiculous. So many of you on this thread are complaining about being ripped off for buying a DVD player for $150, yet if one comes out based on Cell, you can probably guess that that player will cost even more.

Super upconversion sounds neat and all, but until an actual legitimate product is announced that will use it, and be affordable, is it even logical to say "I'm going to wait for this to come out instead"?

cdzie1

08-26-08, 02:19 PM

MovieSwede

08-26-08, 03:00 PM

No. In my opinion, the XDE is a fine DVD player, but it in no way poses a threat to Blu-ray by making DVD look comparable.

A single upscaling player is not a threat to BD. Its upscaling players as a whole that is the problem.

TorontoDoug

08-26-08, 03:54 PM

I think there are two markets. There is one for the now and intermediate future ... is BluRay PQ a big enough improvement to tease $400 (or whatever players are) and an additional $5 or $10 per movie, out of the average consumer. I think this will turn out to be a niche market ... I don't think the average eye cares enough about the PQ improvement. Most people either don't see it, or if they do see it, they just don't care enough about it. My wife could have cared less about the difference between VHS and DVD (which was a far bigger difference than DVD to BluRay). My son can't tell without really trying, the difference between a broadcast SD and HD. When it is pointed out to him he says 'oh yeah' ... but it simply doesn't matter to him.

The other market is for guys like me who have 2000 DVDs and want the best possible picture tweaked out of those, and have no intention of spending $50K to replace them with BluRay. I think that might be a bigger market than the first one. I don't give a rat's ass if the tweaked DVD PQ isn't quite up to HD standards, but I do want the best PQ possible. So I say good for you Toshiba, keep those tweaks coming.

westgate

08-26-08, 04:04 PM

A single upscaling player is not a threat to BD. Its upscaling players as a whole that is the problem.
the higher prices of blu hard/software dont help the blu situation either.
i know, it's a 'new format'.
although, at least hardware prices are starting to come down.

reincarnate

08-26-08, 04:33 PM

Just got through reading the very informative reviews at Amazon. I agree with them. The following was posted there.
Region free via remote control:

- open the tray
- type 2403960
- press 9
- close the tray
- turn the player off and back on again

Worked for me. XD is able to playback Region 2 PAL DVDs now.
-------------------

I'm going to take a picture of the inside (the guts) as there seems to be considerable interest.

reincarnate

08-26-08, 05:37 PM

Here is a picture of the Zoran and TMU655 chips:

It uses the Zoran ZR36886 Vaddis 9 IC which has
Image Enhancement: Sharpness and Brightness Adjustments and Gamma Correction
http://www.zoran.com/IMG/pdf/Vaddis8.pdf

The Zoran ZR36722 HDXtreme 2 Upscaler chip:
http://www.zoran.com/Zoran-Demonstrates-Second

Now let these image parameters be controlled by the secret sauce in the TMU655 chip.

Hynix HY5DU281 memory -128MB@266MHz DDR

Richard Paul

08-26-08, 06:42 PM

Here is a picture of the Zoran and TMU655 chips:Thanks for the picture and now we know all the chips that are used in this player. They are the Zoran Vaddis 966, TMU655, hynix 747A, and the Zoran HDExtreme 2. From what I have read the video upscaler would be the Zoran HDExtreme 2 which is also used in a Samsung DVD player (http://www.zoran.com/Zoran-s-Vaddis-R-9-DVD-Multimedia). Also a Zoran press release (http://www.zoran.com/ZORAN-CORPORATION-ANNOUNCES,253) states that this upscaling chip is already used in several major HDTVs and that they are working on including it in Blu-ray players later this year.

N8YWF

08-26-08, 06:54 PM

No, but it will output PAL if you put a region 2 disc in it (after making the player region free, of course). My XA2 is also region free but unfortunately will not output PAL and I use a plasma.

I'm glad that this new XDE-E500 can be region free and can play PAL disc. I need something like this in case my region free XA2 that also plays PAL disc gives up the ghost.

Your XA2 will play PAL if you roll it back to a older firmware and then back to the 2.5 Aussie firmware. You can find more info about that in the HD DVD Player (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=151) section of the forum.

I guess the only bad part I have read so far is that the XDE-E500 doesn't pillarbox 4x3 content or zoom 4x3 letterbox content. Squish-o-vision and a squished postage stamp letterbox does suck. I hope that this isn't a hardware limitation and can be addressed with a future firmware update.

Richard Paul

08-26-08, 07:03 PM

It uses the Zoran ZR36886 Vaddis 9 IC which has
Image Enhancement: Sharpness and Brightness Adjustments and Gamma Correction
http://www.zoran.com/IMG/pdf/Vaddis8.pdfThat is a link to the Vaddis 888 (http://www.zoran.com/Vaddis-R-888) which despite the numbering is a better chip than the Vaddis 966. The Vaddis 888 includes support for DVD-A, SACD, MPEG-4, and DIVX. Here is a list of the the DVD players (http://www.videohelp.com/dvdplayers?chipset=Zoran%20Vaddis%20888) that use the Vaddis 888.

bruceames

08-26-08, 07:51 PM

I'm glad that this new XDE-E500 can be region free and can play PAL disc. I need something like this in case my region free XA2 that also plays PAL disc gives up the ghost.

Your XA2 will play PAL if you roll it back to a older firmware and then back to the 2.5 Aussie firmware. You can find more info about that in the HD DVD Player (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=151) section of the forum.

I guess the only bad part I have read so far is that the XDE-E500 doesn't pillarbox 4x3 content or zoom 4x3 letterbox content. Squish-o-vision and a squished postage stamp letterbox does suck. I hope that this isn't a hardware limitation and can be addressed with a future firmware update.

That's what I have on the XA2. It will play PAL just fine, but you'll get no picture on a plasma. For some reason, the modded XA2 now won't play some old Fox non-anamorphic DVDs, saying that the discs are from the wrong region. Since the XDE is now region free, I may revert the FW to what it should be, but then I may risk bricking the player so maybe not...

pobff

08-27-08, 12:04 AM

So I was trying to really compare Goatse's screenshots between the Oppo 980H ($169.99) vs. the Toshiba XDE ($149.99) but it was hard scrolling the screens. So I took the liberty to do mouse-over because it gives me better instant comparison. Yes, you do see the strand of hair being jaggie on the XDE, but as someone mentioned, it happens on some dvd players when you "pause" it. It does that on my Samsung BD-UP5000 with the REON chip as well although the upconversion is truly superb even on a 52" LCD.

Well, here's the mouse-over comparisons if you want to check it out for yourself. I referenced Goatse's material and did properly reference them. :)

Personally, I see significant improvement of the XDE over the Oppo and I'm convinced to get one in the near future. I don't like the added color too much though. To me, XDE's image looks so much more sharp and pleasing.

http://www.gfsma.com/xdetest/test.htmll

Star56

08-27-08, 12:11 AM

pobff

08-27-08, 12:14 AM

Just look at the words "Sarah Main" at the lower left corner and it's obvious which one has more sharpness to it.

So it really depends on preference on what people are looking for on upconversion. Some like color, some like sharp with hint of softness. I personally like sharpness with minimal jaggies. That strand of hair I'm sure I won't notice if the dvd is playing instead of being paused. :)

PFC5

08-27-08, 12:47 AM

Thanks for doing this mouse over. It makes it much easier to compare them now.

reincarnate

08-27-08, 07:11 AM

That is a link to the Vaddis 888 (http://www.zoran.com/Vaddis-R-888) which despite the numbering is a better chip than the Vaddis 966. The Vaddis 888 includes support for DVD-A, SACD, MPEG-4, and DIVX. Here is a list of the the DVD players (http://www.videohelp.com/dvdplayers?chipset=Zoran%20Vaddis%20888) that use the Vaddis 888.
I understand that manufactures can make their IC releases confusing. The Toshiba part number is contained in the bottom of this link.
Being a totally HDMI system, I wish Zoran/Toshiba would release a product with SACD and Dvd-Audio and skip the analog outputs. I mean only custom installers like analog video. :p

We watch the Concert for George (Harrison) last night and were really drawn into a visual treat experience. I noticed my wife was paying a lot more attention than usual. (She gave up asking about new gear a few years ago). The clarity, sharpness and detail were outstanding, all while any noise and artifacts were reduced. I did have to manually switch to 1080@60Hz from 1080@24Hz.
One of my favorite tests is well recorded concert audience views while the camera is panning. Here the Toshiba is rock solid with the best clarity I've ever seen. Its ability to clearly delineate shadow detail is outstanding. The image processing made for wonderful contrast between the smooth clear orange lighting in the background and the musicians up front.
Again there is no other player to use for reference quality standard definition playback. Its also not to hard to picture :cool: similar processing occurring for future high definition products.

The way I see it, the DVD manufactures are fighting back hard so that they don't loose sales and pay high licensing fees. Here they have played a lot of their cards and too the consumers benefit.
Zoran chips are highly thought of and have improved with each new generation. Here were have a mature SOTA product which blows away the performance of other more expensive (and overbuilt?) products. I mean why build a product to last 20 years when it will be obsolete in two?

Deja Vu

08-27-08, 08:49 AM

Doug G

08-27-08, 09:05 AM

Region free via remote control:

- open the tray
- type 2403960
- press 9
- close the tray
- turn the player off and back on again

Worked for me. XD is able to playback Region 2 PAL DVDs now.

Me, too! I don't own any non-R1 discs but some new neighbors who just moved in from the UK loaned me several R2 discs and I was able to play them all after performing this sequence. Just for kicks (and to make sure they were bona fide R2 discs) I checked them in my stock RP91 and sure enough they all reported "Unable to play in this region".

N8YWF

08-27-08, 10:01 AM

That's what I have on the XA2. It will play PAL just fine, but you'll get no picture on a plasma. For some reason, the modded XA2 now won't play some old Fox non-anamorphic DVDs, saying that the discs are from the wrong region. Since the XDE is now region free, I may revert the FW to what it should be, but then I may risk bricking the player so maybe not...

I take it that your plasma doesn't support PAL since you can't see the display because the XE1 defaults to PAL until you put in a NTSC disc. As for your disc saying wrong region, those are RCE disc (http://www.dvdtalk.com/rce.html) and you have to press the RCE fix (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13010170&postcount=99) on your remote when you want to watch one.

Has anybody who has a region free XD-E500 tried a RCE disc yet? Does the XD-E500 play the RCE disc or does it give you a wrong region error?

Goatse

08-27-08, 10:02 AM

I really don't think you can judge a player by still photos. Try the player out and judge for yourself, its not like you can't return it. In my comparison, I preferred the more natural picture of the Oppo, XDE was unnaturally sharp and processed for my liking.

Doug G

08-27-08, 10:49 AM

As for your disc saying wrong region, those are RCE disc (http://www.dvdtalk.com/rce.html) and you have to press the RCE fix (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13010170&postcount=99) on your remote when you want to watch one.

Has anybody who has a region free XD-E500 tried a RCE disc yet? Does the XD-E500 play the RCE disc or does it give you a wrong region error?

Well, THAT sux! I had no idea about RCE or I would never have done this! Now I'm really hoping that if the above code is repeated, but pressing "1" instead of "9" (which presumably is the region code since 9=region free) I can revert it back to region 1. Man, I hope I didn't screw myself here...

Does anyone know where a current list of RCE titles is? The list in the above post seems like its pretty old, circa 2002 or so. I wonder if this is the de facto standard these days, I sure hope not.

I checked the list and I don't own any of those discs so perhaps someone else that does can try and report back ASAP.

kbgl

08-27-08, 11:06 AM

My projector will accept a 480p, 720p or 1080i signal on HDMI, or component.

Will the sharpness, contrast, 24fps, and color all work at 480p resolution, on component?

Do they all work at 480p, 720p, and 1080i on HDMI?

It was mentioned that this player had very good sound quality on HDMI. I use the optical or digital coax output from my current sources, and connect them to my pre-pro. I was under the impression that the digital out from dvd players would sound the same. Is there any reason this player would sound better than others using the digital out? Does a dvd player decode or process the sound tracks before they are output digitally?

Doug G

08-27-08, 11:48 AM

N8YWF

08-27-08, 11:48 AM

Any of the Star Wars DVDs are RCE. You could use one of those to test.

Doug G

08-27-08, 11:55 AM

Any of the Star Wars DVDs are RCE. You could use one of those to test.

Thanks, I do own all 6 of these so I'll pop one in later tonight to check it out and report back.

Rach

08-27-08, 12:04 PM

Well, I couldn't help it and had to try out one of these for myself. I spent some time last night taking it through the usual rounds. Comparing it to the BD-30 and A-35, there is no question it is sharper. However, the color mode looks a lot like the DNLE mode on Samsung televisions, very unnatural. It might look good with animation. I wasn't able to try with CGI or animation. First, it is NOT a BD killer in any shape or form. Further, it really is only marginally better. If the scene looks terrible to start with, this machine will not clear it up. It will still look bad. It's not magical as some would have us believe. Having said that, it is somewhat sharper and I found Star Wars E3 to be noticeable sharper. I found the Fellowship of the Ring to be marginally sharper but unnatural in it's sharpness and the color mode on this movie was whack. I also tried Braveheart which did sharper some of the edges and objects but again, it was marginal. I had a hard time noticing any difference with the contrast mode. Still, I think I will keep this player as there are improvements with some DVDs. I'm guessing the best encodes will display the best improvements. BD is not in any way in trouble. I also made the mistake of watching part of the Nightmare Before Christmas on BD later last night. It just blows away anything on DVD, XDE or not. In summary, this machine is not magical but does offer some improvements even if they are marginal. The review that states VHS=1 and BD, HDDVD=10 with XDE as 8.5 is smoking a bit of Arkansas rabbit weed. If regular upconverters are 5-6 than this machine adds a .5 (5.5-6.5) at best.

larrimore

08-27-08, 12:14 PM

No. In my opinion, the XDE is a fine DVD player, but it in no way poses a threat to Blu-ray by making DVD look comparable.

I totally disagree! Blu-ray has a lot going against it already.

#1- it is not a leap ahead of DVD on 75% of displays sold. If you see a difference on your 40" LCD (or below), more power to you, but that is not going to be the case for many people. And, I might add, this is more than 50% of the displays sold today and going higher (the trend in sales is to smaller HD displays as the mass market begins to move to HDTV).

#2- Even on larger displays, many people fit DVD into the "good enough" category. Maybe this is due to the cost differential of BD or maybe it is the old argument that the WOW factor is not as evident on film based programs (99% of movies) as it is on video based programming like sports on TV, I don't know.

#3 The whole HD DVD fiasco has left FUD in many people's minds that will take time to alleviate. Many people bought into a failed format and saw how quickly support can be withdrawn and content can dry up. In fact, a decent sized percentage of the population came into DVD from VHS because they were forced to since content dried up, not because of quality. Maybe they wonder if the same can happen to BD (downloads, flash media, or the next "step up" format) in the future.

The three items above have the possibility of affecting a large percentage of consumers. If something reasonably priced can blur the line between HD and SD even slightly, it may just be the tipping point for a bunch of people. That, my friends, makes the difference between "niche market" and "mass adoption". For me, it makes little difference, niche market is OK as long as content is readily availble as I plan and buy most of my purchases online. But for many, it may mean not picking up that BD movie they see while getting milk at the grocery store, which further solidifies a niche market for the rest of us and, I might add, keeps prices higher.

larrimore

08-27-08, 12:22 PM

reincarnate

08-27-08, 12:25 PM

I want to emphasize Toshiba's contribution here in adding value to this product. Sure the Zoran decoding and image processing and scaling chips are are an excellent baseline. But Toshiba's dynamic algorithms contained in their IC take the Zoran picture quality to new heights. The end result is both subsystems work to complement each other. You can't have one without the other.

Note: many HD displays today have oversaturated color in their default position. Turn it down please! Same too goes for sharpness.

Note2: obviously Toshiba is using the correct HD colorspace :cool:

Note3: Always match the display/playback rate to the record rate. 24Hz for film and 60Hz for video. How can you tell if you are in the wrong mode? Crappy PQ - as when you see coarse double horizontal lines and artifacting while in play mode only: not in pause mode. Pause mode always shows double lines.

arkiedan

08-27-08, 12:25 PM

My first XD-E played two discs and went belly up - dead! I returned it and got the replacement yesterday and played with it for several hours. I should say out front that I love HD-DVD and Blu Ray and have an extensive library of both. I didn't believe for a minute that any sd disc could come close. I was wrong.

My present system is a Sony 60A3000 HD rear projector, Onkyo 805 AVR, Panasonic BD30 Blu Ray player, Toshiba A35 HD DVD player and now this Toshiba XD-E. I set the XD-E resolution at 1080P24 since my TV can handle it.

My A35 is a fine upconverter and so I made all comparisons with that player. Frankly, I love the BD30 for blu discs but it falls well behind the A35 when playing SD discs.

Mel Gibson's Apocalypto is a great sd dvd and image quality is excellent. I played this disc on both players, switching back and forth numerous times, and was continuously surprised and impressed by the image quality of the XD-E over the A35. I was taken aback by the sharper images, the complete lack of edge artifacts and the great contrast and color.

I played with the settings with the following results:

Sharp: this setting is on all the time (unless you turn off all image adjustments) and has a subtle effect on the image quality. In almost every scene it improved the picture noticeably and gave a pleasant 3D look to the film.

Color: Many folks will like this setting but I didn't. It adds a touch of color to greens and blues and as far as color goes I'm a minimalist. The added color was too intense and distracting for me. I'll leave the "color" setting off.

Contrast: I liked this setting. It was subtile but very real and it often causedthe image to "pop" as they say these days. I never thought it was too strong so I'll use this setting for most viewing.

Off: The XD-E does a great job with the settings off. If they were not there to play with I would have still considered this a fine dvd player.

It should be said that the settings are readily available on the remote and it's easy and painless to change them while viewing. I've heard complaints that people don't want to change settings during a movie but it's really a non-issue.

The problem with getting the correct aspect ratio when set to 16:9 was not an issue for me. I can quickly change that with the Sony's "Wide" button so that too is a non-issue.

Overall, I was shocked by the heft of this player. Even when I picked up the box I thought, "There can't be anything in here?" It's that light! And, when unpacked, it weights almost nothing. Still, for me anyway, it produced as promised.

Frankly, I was planning to buy the Oppo 983 (and still might, though it's $250 more) until now. Now I think I might stay with the XD-E. It won't play my SACDs but I have another player I can use for them. I understand it can be setup to handle PAL, region 2 discs and so that eliminates another concern for me.

I've read many negative comments on various forums regarding this player. Many, if not all, are by people who don't own it or who's display won't benefit from it's feature set. All I can say is: you folks are missing out on a fine player. At $150 it's not the cheapest upconverter out there but it's far from the most expensive. And, IMO it can compete with those that cost far more than $150. Can it compete with HD? Again, IMO it can. Considering the price of HD discs these days and the bargains that can be had on SD discs (many will never see HD!) it can more than compete.

The bottom-line: If you're one of those guys who says things like, "I'd rather watch a lousy movie in Hd than a great movie in SD," this player is not for you. Buy those overpriced discs and enjoy them while I play my SDs through this player and watch great movies with IQ very near your's.

Addition: I have two copies of Casablanca, one HD DVD and one straight out of Walmart's bargain bin at $5.00.

I simultaneously ran both, the HD DVD in the A35 and the SD in the XD-E, switching back and forth. The $5.00 SD version in the XD-E was excellent and, believe it or not, very close to the HD version. I found it best with the filters switched off. I then ran the SD in the A35 player and found IQ inferior with more noise than the XD-E, which gave the disc a smoother, less noisy appearance, closer to the HD version.

I have a copy of the Superbit SD, "Desperado," which looks very good on the A35. In the XD-E it was better, terrific in fact, and my wife and son thought it was a new HD disc.

arkiedan

larrimore

08-27-08, 12:28 PM

ack_bk

08-27-08, 12:39 PM

I totally disagree! Blu-ray has a lot going against it already.

#1- it is not a leap ahead of DVD on 75% of displays sold. If you see a difference on your 40" LCD (or below), more power to you, but that is not going to be the case for many people. And, I might add, this is more than 50% of the displays sold today and going higher (the trend in sales is to smaller HD displays as the mass market begins to move to HDTV).

Question. Have you personally ever hooked an HD DVD or Blu-Ray player up to a 32-40" LCD and compared HDM to upconverted DVD on the same HDTV? I have. Multiple times. There is a definite difference. My wife is not even close to being a videophile and she spotted it right away as well (this was on a 32" 720p LCD from 6-7' away comparing Batman Begins on HD DVD and DVD, as well as comparing Pirates on BD and DVD). If I can see the difference and my wife can see the difference, why can't "most people"? I hear this being thrown out all the time on various forums "most people can't see the difference" and I guess I don't understand it. I completely do not agree with it. I think most people will see the difference. It is whether or not they want to pay to see the difference is the biggest question I have..

#2- Even on larger displays, many people fit DVD into the "good enough" category. Maybe this is due to the cost differential of BD or maybe it is the old argument that the WOW factor is not as evident on film based programs (99% of movies) as it is on video based programming like sports on TV, I don't know.

I think it has everything to do with the price. Once BD player hit that critical $199 and below territory (and they clearly will with Funai dropping their MSRP to $249 in September). As for the WOW factor I see it very clearly. Months ago I put in Planet Earth and Casino Royale on BD at a party and people were floored. By the end of the night everyone knew what the term Blu-Ray meant. I originally put it in for a group of us guys (there were 6 of us, and within 30 minutes all the wives had come downstairs and the husbands were talking about wanting a Blu-Ray player).

#3 The whole HD DVD fiasco has left FUD in many people's minds that will take time to alleviate. Many people bought into a failed format and saw how quickly support can be withdrawn and content can dry up. In fact, a decent sized percentage of the population came into DVD from VHS because they were forced to since content dried up, not because of quality. Maybe they wonder if the same can happen to BD (downloads, flash media, or the next "step up" format) in the future.

Sorry, but most people had no idea what HD DVD and Blu-Ray were when they first came out and I doubt many people even heard or cared about Toshiba throwing in the towel in February. Many people are just now seeing HD cable and satelitte for the first time, let alone Blu-Ray. It will take years for Blu-Ray to become a term most people recognize and understand. I think we are lucky the format war ended as quick as it did. As for VHS, I seem to remember most retailers and rental outfits carrying it well into 2002-2003. DVD started taking off in 1999-2000. I don't really see studios phasing out DVD anytime soon, although Warner Bros recently made the comment that they would slowly phase DVD out in favor of BD and VOD. I personally think BD and DVD will be living together side-by-side for another 10 years.

The three items above have the possibility of affecting a large percentage of consumers. If something reasonably priced can blur the line between HD and SD even slightly, it may just be the tipping point for a bunch of people. That, my friends, makes the difference between "niche market" and "mass adoption". For me, it makes little difference, niche market is OK as long as content is readily availble as I plan and buy most of my purchases online. But for many, it may mean not picking up that BD movie they see while getting milk at the grocery store, which further solidifies a niche market for the rest of us and, I might add, keeps prices higher.

The problem with an XDE or Oppo type player is that you are expecting the masses to understand the difference between those players and $40-100 upconverting players from other name brand companies. Go look at Best Buy. They have 11 "1080p" upconverting players by name brand companies (Philips, Toshiba, LG, Samsung, Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic) for $100 or less. If somebody has really done their homework and really cares about the PQ (not to mention AQ/extras) I would advocate that they would most likely spend another $100 or so (even less in the upcoming years) and buy a Blu-Ray player.

Will upconverting players steal some Blu-Ray sales away? Undoubtedly. Especially when the price of Blu-Ray is still relatively high. But over the next year or two, I doubt there will be much more than a $50 difference between a very good upconverting player and a good BD player.

Rach

08-27-08, 12:48 PM

One of the rabbit weed smokers here. :)

What mode did you use? 720/1080 or 1080/24. On anything but 1080/24 I would agree with you. But, on 1080/24, I think it does noticably better.

I used 1080/24. I just didn't see it on every DVD. It is marginally better IMO. Marginally better than anything I own.

kbgl

08-27-08, 02:10 PM

XDE modes only work in 1080i/p modes, although I think someone reported it worked in 720p when used as a result of "Auto" mode. Pretty sure components are limited to 480p for copy-protected material, so HDMI is your best bet. 24fps only avilable for 1080p. If you bitstream, then sound should be the same since pre/pro or receiver does the decoding.

So since my projector will not accept a 1080p signal on HDMI, I don't get the 24fps benefit, and I must use HDMI to use the color, contrast, and sharpness features, as they are not available at 480p on component.

Are you sure about all bitstream being the same? I thought so too, but a few days ago, I switched players and played a concert video that I had played the day before, and it seemed different. Very likely my hearing was affected by allergies or something, but I'd like to know for sure without doing a lot of needless A/B testing between players.

reincarnate

08-27-08, 02:29 PM

They have 11 "1080p" upconverting players by name brand companies (Philips, Toshiba, LG, Samsung, Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic) for $100 or less. If somebody has really done their homework and really cares about the PQ (not to mention AQ/extras) I would advocate that they would most likely spend another $100 or so (even less in the upcoming years) and buy a Blu-Ray player.

Will upconverting players steal some Blu-Ray sales away? Undoubtedly. Especially when the price of Blu-Ray is still relatively high. But over the next year or two, I doubt there will be much more than a $50 difference between a very good upconverting player and a good BD player.
Today the "name brands" have inferior SD playback quality. Blu-ray players are nowhere near $200. Fanboys predicted prices would drop, instead they (and especially discs) shot-up. The discs are easily $40 compared to $5 nearly new rentals. Do the real math.

Here is shining example of the bias at AVS. I dare anyone to go post the superior playback of the Toshiba 500 of standard definition discs is compared to any Blu-ray player - in the Blu-ray forum
I already did and my posts were removed. The thread title was "What you don't like about your Blu-ray player". I replied and said my PS3 playback looked inferior to the Toshiba 500.

Guess what happened? My post was removed even though I'm a Blu-ray owner with over 100 discs and my response was directly answering the title of the thread. :o

emthree

08-27-08, 02:34 PM

mike--

08-27-08, 02:53 PM

I just got this Tosh Xd-E500. I already have a Samsung BDP5000 (which plays both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray ) and a Sony BDP-S300, and a Tosh A30...........and this XD-E500 blows them all away as for upconverting!! The picture is just stunning!! Great Value!

theflux

08-27-08, 02:56 PM

Blu-ray players are nowhere near $200. Fanboys predicted prices would drop, instead they (and especially discs) shot-up.

No they didn't. Prices have come down and continue to come down. The recent Walmart deal is one example, the Best Buy Insignia player is another.

The discs are easily $40 compared to $5 nearly new rentals. Do the real math.

Do what math? The MSRP for Blu-ray has always been at $40 for some titles, and need I remind you that was the MSRP for some HD DVDs as well. I challenge you to post evidence that MSRP has risen at all, let alone shot up.

Here is shining example of the bias at AVS. I dare anyone to go post the superior playback of the Toshiba 500 of standard definition discs is compared to any Blu-ray player - in the Blu-ray forum

This is more like a shining example of the Mods keeping the forum clean. You admit that you posted in the Blu-ray player forum about something that is not a Blu-ray player. What did you expect would happen?

I already did and my posts were removed.

Good.

mike--

08-27-08, 03:12 PM

Toshiba seems to be on to something with this definetly!........and if they tweak it to fix the 4 X 3 situation (currently you have to reduce the resolution to 480p to view discs in their normal aspect ratio-which is not upconverting-and the XDE function will only work in 1080I/P mode), but I honestly can't tell a difference in PQ from the same film in HD DVD or Blu-Ray-and I have several where a have the standard disc AND the equalivant of the HD/Blu-Ray disc! For example: I'm currently watching Mutiny on the Bounty(the 1962 Brando version) in HD DVD on my Tosh A30........and the SD version on the XDE.........and the XDE shows remarkable color enhancement vs. the HD version! I'm viewing it on my 42' Sharp Aquos LC-42D64U. And just as sharp a picture too. One the best investments you can get in regards to viewing Anamorphic films!!

av.pallino

08-27-08, 03:13 PM

No they didn't. Prices have come down and continue to come down. The recent Walmart deal is one example, the Best Buy Insignia player is another.

Do what math? The MSRP for Blu-ray has always been at $40 for some titles, and need I remind you that was the MSRP for some HD DVDs as well. I challenge you to post evidence that MSRP has risen at all, let alone shot up.

This is more like a shining example of the Mods keeping the forum clean. You admit that you posted in the Blu-ray player forum about something that is not a Blu-ray player. What did you expect would happen?

Good.

Two things to keep in mind:

1. There is far more content on DVD than Blu Ray and each week the gap increases at an icreasing rate. don't believe me? check out the release schedule.

2. The Toshiba easily beats the upconverting capabilities of any set top Blu Ray player, upto ones that cost 10X as much - with the exception of the Reon and qdeo based palyers. The current SOny, Panny and Pioneer players are very sub standard DVD players. The PS3 is good as weel.

There you have it! Unless you are one of those who are satisfied with the Blu Ray schedule, an effective DVD solution is required today. The Toshiba is an excellent choice.

nextoo

08-27-08, 03:35 PM

larrimore

08-27-08, 03:37 PM

Question. Have you personally ever hooked an HD DVD or Blu-Ray player up to a 32-40" LCD and compared HDM to upconverted DVD on the same HDTV? I have. Multiple times. There is a definite difference. My wife is not even close to being a videophile and she spotted it right away as well (this was on a 32" 720p LCD from 6-7' away comparing Batman Begins on HD DVD and DVD, as well as comparing Pirates on BD and DVD). If I can see the difference and my wife can see the difference, why can't "most people"? I hear this being thrown out all the time on various forums "most people can't see the difference" and I guess I don't understand it. I completely do not agree with it. I think most people will see the difference. It is whether or not they want to pay to see the difference is the biggest question I have..
.

Well, I own 6 HD sets from 30" to my 100" Projector Screen, so the answer to your question is "yes I have" and up to my 40" LCD (which is a 1080P Toshiba), I stand by my contention. Beyond that, it becomes more and more evident. However, if my 40" was my largest TV, I would probably say, "meh" to either of the HD media formats.

I appreciate your opinion, but I disagree. And, to make my point:

If people can easily tell the difference, how come they can go into Best Buy, see the amazing HD pics and buy their 32" LCD, take it home, plug it into regular SD cable or satellite and miraculously "think" they are watching HD? A survey posted earlier this year showed some unbelievable percentage of people in that category- and that is SD TV, which anamorphic DVD is far, far superior to.

larrimore

08-27-08, 03:42 PM

nextoo

08-27-08, 03:49 PM

Agreed.

Although I will say it has been much more civil than if it had taken place in the BD forums. :)

Agreed as well..

I own a BR player too. This is not the thread to discuss its merits. Or why I purchased it. That it is HD - yada yada yada.

This is the XDE-500 owners thread. I like the DVD catalog. I should not have to debate this.

As an example, I own a Yamaha A/V receiver. It has a really great thread on AVS - very helpful. The last thing I would want to see in that forum is a bunch of Onkyo (as an example only) head cases crashing the forum trying to promote Onkyo. It doesn't happen there. Hopefully it won't happen here.

N8YWF

08-27-08, 03:59 PM

The other market is for guys like me who have 2000 DVDs and want the best possible picture tweaked out of those, and have no intention of spending $50K to replace them with BluRay. I think that might be a bigger market than the first one. I don't give a rat's ass if the tweaked DVD PQ isn't quite up to HD standards, but I do want the best PQ possible. So I say good for you Toshiba, keep those tweaks coming.

Amen brother. After spending tons of money over the past 10 years replacing everything I had on VHS and then some. I'm not going to spend $40+ Each to replace them. Also most of the old movies won't ever be put on BR so a old classics lover will be SOL. But most of the vomit that hollywood is making now will be released on BR.

With the economy the way it is now. Most working class people are happy with DVD and are more worried about keeping a roof over their heads, feeding their family and having gas in their car. They see BR as a luxery that only rich people with disposable incomes can afford.

ack_bk

08-27-08, 04:13 PM

Let's not derail this thread and turn it into the XDE versus Blu-ray debate. Or even a HD versus SD debate. The thread is the XDE-500 OWNERS thread.

I'm starting to see "smackdown" posters from other forums drift into this thread trying to turn the discussion into a format debate. Curious BR promoters who have an agenda. Again this is an XDE owners thread - not a thread to promote high definition. There are other forums and threads on this site designed for that type of discussion.

I did not bring up the topic (HDM vs XDE) nor the talking points. Larrimore did. I was replying to it (go back and read this thread again). If you want to be upset with somebody for derailing this thread look again. If you are calling me out as a Blu-Ray promoter that has an agenda bring it up with the moderators. I strongly suggest you look at my posting history at AVS before you report me to the mods though...

As for the XDE, based on all that I have read on various forums I have recommended it to a close friend who was leaning towards an Oppo player. I have no agenda. If somebody is looking for a solid upconverting player and has $150-200 it looks like a short list between the Oppo and the XDE.

theflux

08-27-08, 04:41 PM

Let's not derail this thread and turn it into the XDE versus Blu-ray debate. Or even a HD versus SD debate. The thread is the XDE-500 OWNERS thread.

Good idea. I suggest the people who keep bringing the topic up heed your advice.

Doug G

08-27-08, 05:02 PM

AFAIK, the RCE hack is needed only for XE1/XA2 players and needs to be applied each time an RCE disc is inserted. If XDE hack is permanent, it most likely doesn't require an extra hack for some (RCE coded) discs. So, no, you haven't screwed up your system. Your player should remain region free for all discs (if you pressed 9):-)

I had read that while it was possible to play RCE discs after going region-free, it either required some kind of user intervention (remote codes) or sometimes playing another non-RCE disc from the same region for a small time before playing the RCE encoded disc. I don't want to have to do either of these since I don't currently own any non-R1 discs. I found several lists of players abilities to deal with RCE discs after being made region-free and in all cases every Toshiba player was listed as "FAILED, see Note" and the note had a different sequence for each model. And even after performing this sequence the menus and special features were inaccessible, it really just got you to title 1, chapter 1 to watch the feature presentation. So, while I have read some players out there handle these discs no problem, it would seem Toshibas history isn't so good in this area.

I realize the player will remain region free for now, but what I had hoped was that in the code sequence above the first string of digits was the code to get into the service region mode, and the "9" was the code that represented "All regions" (which is different than "0" which means "no region" and is only put on the media.) If the player won't handle RCE discs without my intervention than I plan to repeat the sequence but press "1" (for region 1) in place of "9" to see if I can revert it back to region 1 mode. I didn't realize I was risking losing any functionality by going region-free, or I would never have done it. I can deal with the few non-anamorphic DVDs I have instead of replacing them with out of region anamorphic transfers like I had planned if the price is a serious inconvenience to my region 1 usage on RCE titles. Besides, there's no way the wife will put up with that trying to start a video for the kids!

Gonna plop in a SW disc tonight (which supposedly has RCE) and see what happens. Will report back with an update later.

reincarnate

08-27-08, 05:08 PM

I did not bring up the topic (HDM vs XDE) nor the talking points. Larrimore did. I was replying to it (go back and read this thread again). If you want to be upset with somebody for derailing this thread look again. If you are calling me out as a Blu-Ray promoter that has an agenda bring it up with the moderators. I strongly suggest you look at my posting history at AVS before you report me to the mods though...

As for the XDE, based on all that I have read on various forums I have recommended it to a close friend who was leaning towards an Oppo player. I have no agenda. If somebody is looking for a solid upconverting player and has $150-200 it looks like a short list between the Oppo and the XDE.
If you are worried about your reputation and want to continue to post here then why not purchase a 500 player? As it is I think very little of your posts. Go read the Amazon reviews from owners if you need more inspiration. Its very difficult lately to get the truth out at AVS lately without competing interests interfering. Times are tough in many ways.

I own the Oppo 981 and the Toshiba Xa2 and the PS3. The only reason to buy the more expensive Oppo is for Dvd-audio playback. The PS3 is a better SACD player even though the high-end press refuses to review its stellar SACD playback.

Updated SD playback olympic rankings from personal experience:
Toshiba XDE-500 - gold and silver - (any fool can see the improvement with a good setup)
Toshiba XA2 - bronze (and for being the progenitor )
Sony PS3 - pewter (for now - as Sony has their cell processors largely sitting at idle))
Oppo 981 - wood (even if it did score perfect in Secrets traditional synthesized tests. Rather our trained eyes are the better tool.)

ack_bk

08-27-08, 05:30 PM

If you are worried about your reputation and want to continue to post here then why not purchase a 500 player? As it is I think very little of your posts. Go read the Amazon reviews from owners if you need more inspiration. Its very difficult lately to get the truth out at AVS lately without competing interests interfering. Times are tough in many ways.

Now I own the Oppo 981 and the Toshiba Xa2 and the PS3. The only reason to buty the more expensive Oppo is for Dvd-audio playback. The PS3 is a better SACD player even though the high-end press refuses to review it.

New SD playback olympic rankings from personal experience:
Toshiba XDE-500 - gold and silver - (any fool can see the improvement with a good setup)
Toshiba XA2 - bronze (and for being the progenitor Sony has their cell processors largely sitting at idle)
Sony PS3 - pewter (for now)
Oppo 981 - wood (even if it did score perfect in Secrets traditional synthesized tests. Rather our trained eyes are the better tool.)

I spent a full day with an Oppo 983 on an Epson 1080p UB and a Stewart Firehawk screen and walked away very impressed with the player but not with the price. We (another AV enthusiast) compared:
Sony Progressive Scan DVD player (your standard $59 Costco model) vs Oppo 983
PS3 (upscaled DVD) vs Oppo 983
PS3 (Blu-Ray) vs Oppo 983

The Oppo (by far) was the clear winner in all comparisons we did with DVD media. I always thought the PS3 was a good upscaler (I would compare it to the upscaling on my A2 HD DVD player) but the Oppo trounced it. Especially with blacks and jaggies. Likewise the PS3 with Blu-Ray trounced the Oppo. My buddy kept the Oppo and I could not blame him. I debated buying one and decided $399 was too much to spend on a DVD player at this point in time. Especially when Oppo is developing a BD player which I hope will have similar upscaling capability.

However, the XDE is half the price of the Oppo. It is quite tempting if it is as good or better than the Reon (which I have heard is close to the Oppo 983) as many of you guys claim. As I mentioned I have a good friend that was about to pull the trigger on an Oppo 980 based on my recommendation. I spoke with him about the XDE and I am pretty sure he is leaning in that direction now as a local Circuit City has them in stock and he can always take it back. So I should get some hands on with an XDE very soon. If it is even close to the Oppo 983 I suspect I will be picking one up as soon as Best Buy gets them in (I have a 12% off coupon). But I am still torn as I am moving away from DVD and mostly watching HD content now (Dish network, BD, HD DVD, downloads).

To those that own the XDE, how did you calibrate it? I calibrate all sources using DVE (I own the DVD, BD, and HD DVD version) along with another DVD of test tools courtesy of AVS.

Did you calibrate with the sharpness, color, or contrast on or off? I assumed that you would turn them on and then calibrate.

smithb

08-27-08, 06:32 PM

Personally, I'm still leaning to the Oppo 983. I think the XDE-500 might be a good additional player for someone but for me I don't think it can be my primary solution.

- I have too much 4:3 content I don't want stretched.
- I need video options for brightness, contrast, sharpness, color and tint in the player to work with my digital input of my projector
- Based on what the XDE is doing I'm not sure that all movies will be improved with it's added features. It might be somewhat hit or miss.
- I have a 720p projector that doesn't appear to maximize it capabilities.
- Oppo players have gone through multiple generations and are feature rich in a variety of ways, not just PQ.
- Oppo has been well received and well respected in this area for a while providing a better comfort level.
- The Oppo is costly but I want a player that handles all my SD needs going forward and then I will get a player to specifically handle my BR needs.

I'm only posting for those interested in the XDE from a PQ perspective that may be forgetting about all the other considerations they need in a player. I'm not knocking the XDE in anyway it has some interesting capabilities. It will also be interesting to see what the talk is on this player a year from now and what the next generation player from Toshiba will be able to do.

Ruined

08-27-08, 06:56 PM

The current SOny, Panny and Pioneer players are very sub standard DVD players.

Going to correct you on this one. The new Sony S350/S550 ($399/$599) and Pioneer 51FD/05FD ($599/$799) are both good upscalers. The Sony basically uses the same chip the Toshiba HD-A35 used while the Pioneer uses proprietary technology. The Panasonic players remain substandard DVD players, though.

westgate

08-27-08, 07:14 PM

Going to correct you on this one. The new Sony S350/S550 ($399/$599) and Pioneer 51FD/05FD ($599/$799) are both good upscalers. The Sony basically uses the same chip the Toshiba HD-A35 used while the Pioneer uses proprietary technology. The Panasonic players remain substandard DVD players, though.

the tosh a35 and a30 both use an emma ? chip for di-ing and the abt 1018 scaling chip. 2 chips.
the sonys use the same 2 chips?
just curious. thanks.

HD_Lantern

08-27-08, 07:21 PM

the tosh a35 and a30 both use an emma ? chip for di-ing and the abt 1018 scaling chip. 2 chips.
the sonys use the same 2 chips?
just curious. thanks.
I don't think the Sony's use ABT chips. The 350 has something called "Precision Cinema HD Upscale" which I'm thinking is a proprietary Sony upscaling solution.

av.pallino

08-27-08, 07:27 PM

the tosh a35 and a30 both use an emma ? chip for di-ing and the abt 1018 scaling chip. 2 chips.
the sonys use the same 2 chips?
just curious. thanks.

It would be great if they did, but I don't know of Sony using chips from Anchor Bay,Silicon Optix or Marvel - ever!

But I could be wrong. The S300 I owned briefly was horrendous, and so was the Panny 30. Perhaps the new players are better as DVD Players (since they can't be much worse). Just my opinion of course. The 550 looks nice though :)

Doug G

08-27-08, 08:38 PM

OK, I played all 6 Star Wars DVDs and they all work. However, in trying to confirm they were actually encoded with RCE, I found information in various places that indicates they use something "RCE-like" but not RCE. There were reports of some people being able to play them on some linux systems/players that were still unable to play confirmed RCE titles like Charlie's Angels. At the same time there were some who needed to use RCE workarounds to play them (e.g. skipping directly to title 1, ch 1.)

So I went looking for a more comprehensive list of RCE titles. I figured surely I had to own at least one RCE disc in my somewhat modest collection. I eventually stumbled on the site playusa.com which indicates on any titles they sell if its RCE enabled or not. Lucky for me they also include this indication in the disc title so I was able to use their search utility to return a list of RCE titles. There were 882 in all!! I figured for sure I had to have one RCE disc out of this many available.

I got about halfway thru the almost 900 titles when I hit paydirt. "Stepmom". Now before you laugh, I didn't actually buy this, it was one of those 10 free DVDs I got when I bought my very first player just before the turn of the last century (yes its that old!) Well, it turns out it was the 1999 pressing which was well before RCE was deployed. So I kept on......600.....700....WTF? Then, at around 800-and-something I finally got lucky. Out of all the 882 discs listed with RCE, the one disc I actually had turned out to be one we had grabbed for the kids at Wal-mart out of the bargain bin about 4 years ago while on summer vacation in Maine - "Jay Jay the Jet Plane - Adventures in Learning"!! :D Check it out here (http://www.playusa.com/DVD/Region_1/3-/112005/-/Product.html) to see the details. My copy has the same date listed (2002) and is definitely region 1 and should be an RCE version if their info is correct.

So I rushed right over and put it in the player and I waited - holding my breath and crossing my fingers - then finally up came the menus no problem! Even played a little of the first episode just in case. To make sure the other R1 discs I had played prior to it didn't accidentally invoke a workaround as some reported, I played a bit of an R2 disc, and then put the Jay Jay disc back in and again up came the menus and it played no problem.

I'm still going to grab one of the other confirmed RCE titles and give it a try just for double confirmation, but it looks like this player might actually do fine with RCE discs after all. Whew! [wiping sweat from brow...:)]

lujan

08-27-08, 08:39 PM

I'm excited because my XD-E500 that I ordered has been shipped and is expected to be delivered by UPS on Friday (just in time for the long weekend). I have HD DVD and Blu-ray players with a 72 inch DLP so I should be able to see a difference (if any). Most of my DVDs are widescreen so I shouldn't have the stretch issue. I will give my impressions later in the weekend.

larrimore

08-27-08, 08:47 PM

I did not bring up the topic (HDM vs XDE) nor the talking points. Larrimore did. I was replying to it (go back and read this thread again). If you want to be upset with somebody for derailing this thread look again. If you are calling me out as a Blu-Ray promoter that has an agenda bring it up with the moderators. I strongly suggest you look at my posting history at AVS before you report me to the mods though...

As for the XDE, based on all that I have read on various forums I have recommended it to a close friend who was leaning towards an Oppo player. I have no agenda. If somebody is looking for a solid upconverting player and has $150-200 it looks like a short list between the Oppo and the XDE.

hey, I for one thought our little back and forth was constructive. And, I mightr add I agreed with much of what you said. Lighten up a bit and we'll be fine!

I do think the major merits of HD upscalers is its ability to fill a niche for people who are not ready to go BD, so comparisons are likely. However, as a veteran (actually "wounded veteran" might be appropriate :)) of the format war discussions, I understand how it can get out of hand quickly. Sometimes we need to make sure to contend and not attack- Congress needs to learn that same lesson.

larrimore

08-27-08, 08:50 PM

Going to correct you on this one. The new Sony S350/S550 ($399/$599) and Pioneer 51FD/05FD ($599/$799) are both good upscalers. The Sony basically uses the same chip the Toshiba HD-A35 used while the Pioneer uses proprietary technology. The Panasonic players remain substandard DVD players, though.

This is very interesting as Panasonic has some of the absolute best upscaling in their TVs. So, you know they CAN do it. Are they holding back? I know they are heavy IP owners in BD (almost as much as Sony), so the conspiracy theorist in me wonders...

ack_bk

08-27-08, 08:53 PM

hey, I for one thought our little back and forth was constructive. And, I mightr add I agreed with much of what you said. Lighten up a bit and we'll be fine!

I do think the major merits of HD upscalers is its ability to fill a niche for people who are not ready to go BD, so comparisons are likely. However, as a veteran (actually "wounded veteran" might be appropriate :)) of the format war discussions, I understand how it can get out of hand quickly. Sometimes we need to make sure to contend and not attack- Congress needs to learn that same lesson.

Agreed and I never meant to derail the thread. I started out HD DVD and eventually bought a BD player so I had all my bases covered :)

Getting a solid upscaling player would cover that last remaining base.

Although I am eyeing the Mitsubishi 5500 PJ which has the HQV processor built in. So it may end up being my answer to upscaled SD once and for all.

larrimore

08-27-08, 08:57 PM

bruceames

08-27-08, 09:05 PM

I take it that your plasma doesn't support PAL since you can't see the display because the XE1 defaults to PAL until you put in a NTSC disc. As for your disc saying wrong region, those are RCE disc (http://www.dvdtalk.com/rce.html) and you have to press the RCE fix (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13010170&postcount=99) on your remote when you want to watch one.

Has anybody who has a region free XD-E500 tried a RCE disc yet? Does the XD-E500 play the RCE disc or does it give you a wrong region error?

Thanks for that, you've saved me a lot of trouble. Now I can play True Lies in my XA2 again. :)

Richard Paul

08-27-08, 11:36 PM

I want to emphasize Toshiba's contribution here in adding value to this product. Sure the Zoran decoding and image processing and scaling chips are are an excellent baseline. But Toshiba's dynamic algorithms contained in their IC take the Zoran picture quality to new heights.Do you have any evidence that the video upscaling on the Toshiba XD-E500 is better than other DVD players that use the HDExtreme 2 upscaling chip? It has 4 preset modes but where is the evidence that there are "dynamic algorithms" unique to this player? It just seems to me that the $150 Toshiba XD-E500 is a bit overpriced considering that there are other DVD players (such as the Samsung DVD-1080P7 (http://www.zoran.com/Zoran-s-Vaddis-R-9-DVD-Multimedia)) that are being sold for less than half that price which use the same HDExtreme 2 upscaling chip.

lexicon1

08-28-08, 12:10 AM

Its great fun reading these threads.
I have a low expectation of what I want this unit to do,
All I want it to do is be better than the run of the mill SD player or the Oppo.
The consensus is.... it typically does.
Ive got a Sony 60" rear projection TV and based on one other poster, he loved the XDE.

I have absolutely no expectation that it will be as good or even close to a blue ray.
Looks like I will be easy to please.
Does ANYONE have a link to another quality forum where other videophiles rate this particular model?
Thanks guys

Ruined

08-28-08, 01:45 AM

the tosh a35 and a30 both use an emma ? chip for di-ing and the abt 1018 scaling chip. 2 chips.
the sonys use the same 2 chips?
just curious. thanks.

Sony 350/550 uses the NEC emma chip for deinterlacing (the hard part), yes. (inside the 350: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=117693&d=1219610410) Scaling, I'm not sure, but scaling is pretty hard to screw up these days (that ABT1018 chip is ooolllllld technology) - and the 350's output with DVDs looks competitive with the A35's in quality.

Of course the 350 won't be nearly as good as Reon, but then again the A35 wasn't either. Personally I am using the Pioneer BDP-51FD Blu-ray Player streaming 480i to a Reon processor for scaling & deinterlacing.

Doug G

08-28-08, 08:02 AM

Thanks for that, you've saved me a lot of trouble. Now I can play True Lies in my XA2 again. :)

Are you sure True Lies is RCE? Did you try the RCE workaround with the remote and it worked?

I don't see it listed and this link (http://www.dvdactive.com/reviews/dvd/true-lies3.html) indicates is doesn't have RCE. (It also correctly lists it as non-anamorphic.) This is a Fox release and I don't believe they every used RCE, it was mainly WB, Columbia, and a very, very few select titles from MGM.

larrimore

08-28-08, 08:32 AM

Do you have any evidence that the video upscaling on the Toshiba XD-E500 is better than other DVD players that use the HDExtreme 2 upscaling chip? It has 4 preset modes but where is the evidence that there are "dynamic algorithms" unique to this player? It just seems to me that the $150 Toshiba XD-E500 is a bit overpriced considering that there are other DVD players (such as the Samsung DVD-1080P7 (http://www.zoran.com/Zoran-s-Vaddis-R-9-DVD-Multimedia)) that are being sold for less than half that price which use the same HDExtreme 2 upscaling chip.

Because last Christmas I bought the Samsung on sale at Best Buy on black Friday and it was an ugly mess on my projector. Toshiba is doing something different for sure. What it is I do not know, but it is much, much better.

You've been around here long enough to know that manufacturers implement the chips differently- tun features on and off, use different algorithms, etc. It is evident Toshiba and Samsung have done something differently.

larrimore

08-28-08, 08:37 AM

av.pallino

08-28-08, 08:39 AM

Next comparison for tonight:

XDE vs. XA-1

Don't laugh! The XA-1 is a good upscaler and as I recall, seemed sharper to me than the players I bought later (on SD DVDs). Also, remember it is built like a tank and was $800 when it came out in 2006! In fact I remember saying it would stay in my system because of upscaling and its wonderful CD sound if not for the SLOW load times.

Comparison tomorrow AM!

The XA1 was from what I recall a lot like a PC so I'd guess the scaling would be excellent, the deinterlacing not so excellent :)

A friend of mine is using an old XA1 chasis for his HTPC. He gutted it and built around it. Looks cool in his set up for sure. It has a motorized door that opens up and all that nice stuff :)

bruceames

08-28-08, 11:25 AM

Are you sure True Lies is RCE? Did you try the RCE workaround with the remote and it worked?

I don't see it listed and this link (http://www.dvdactive.com/reviews/dvd/true-lies3.html) indicates is doesn't have RCE. (It also correctly lists it as non-anamorphic.) This is a Fox release and I don't believe they every used RCE, it was mainly WB, Columbia, and a very, very few select titles from MGM.

I just know that it didn't work before and after typing in the code it did work. It also worked with Commando. Maybe it has something to do with it being non-anamorphic (but then again the non-anamorphic Runaway Train works without the code), as a much higher percentage of disc being rejected are non-anamorphic. Anyway, it works and thanks again. :)

westgate

08-28-08, 11:31 AM

it just dawned on me (i'm probably the last one to figure it out) that toshiba did not put out an SRT dvd player at this time (dont know if they ever will) because if they did many folks would just buy it and keep their present tvs.

this might keep many from buying toshes upcoming new hdtvs (with SRT upscaling) that will cost a couple 'o grand, at first and a lot more than a dvd player.

imo.

larrimore

08-28-08, 11:56 AM

Next comparison for tonight:

XDE vs. XA-1

Don't laugh! The XA-1 is a good upscaler and as I recall, seemed sharper to me than the players I bought later (on SD DVDs). Also, remember it is built like a tank and was $800 when it came out in 2006! In fact I remember saying it would stay in my system because of upscaling and its wonderful CD sound if not for the SLOW load times.

Comparison tomorrow AM!

Well- I must say the XA-1 still impresses at upscaling, but again, this XDE looks better to my eyes. However, I could live with the XA-1 easily if I had to because the sound quality is also very impressive (via analog outs). What I cannot live with is the boot times. I had forgotten how long they were on the Gen 1 HD DVD players!

buzontexas

08-28-08, 12:28 PM

I have a Toshiba 32 inch LCD 720 i think, and I sit approximately 10-12 feet away from the screen. Would I see an improvements with this XD dvd upconverter?

I want to get it so badly but I tend to make dumb decisions, like installing software on incapable machines in hopes that somehow it will work ok.

Right now I have a sony DVP-NS700H that looks a bit better than my regular progressive scan DVD player.

Should i get the XD from toshiba?

westgate

08-28-08, 12:32 PM

buzontexas

08-28-08, 12:56 PM

Does anyone here has a smaller LCD and tried this XD player?

ack_bk

08-28-08, 01:36 PM

Does anyone here has a smaller LCD and tried this XD player?

It is not the size of the TV so much as it is the seating distance to screen size. At 10-12ft away on a 32" screen you are going to lose the advantages that good upconverting and HD players offer.

You can always sit closer if you cannot afford a bigger screen right now :)

At that distance you will need something in the 55-60"+ range to really see the benefits of a better player.

GM6

08-28-08, 03:18 PM

I'm staring at the picture from an XDE right now, and I'm telling you guys, it looks like crap.

It's not even as sharp where it counts (in focus areas) as the 980H. The 983H pretty much blows it away.

Is Toshiba even serious?!

arkiedan

08-28-08, 04:11 PM

GM6

08-28-08, 05:42 PM

reincarnate

08-28-08, 06:28 PM

hey, I for one thought our little back and forth was constructive. And, I mightr add I agreed with much of what you said. Lighten up a bit and we'll be fine!

I do think the major merits of HD upscalers is its ability to fill a niche for people who are not ready to go BD, so comparisons are likely. However, as a veteran (actually "wounded veteran" might be appropriate :)) of the format war discussions, I understand how it can get out of hand quickly. Sometimes we need to make sure to contend and not attack- Congress needs to learn that same lesson.
I agree. To me, its a simple matter of economics. I walked down the isles of Best Buy Today. Blu-ray discs continue to go up as the on-sale discs were $30. The SD discs on sale were $4! At these prices a 500 disc collection of Standard definition would cost $2K. The Blu-ray cost would be $15K. When looking at the whole picture, a player price dropping $100 is largely irrelevant.
That being said I own two PS3 players as their still is no finer value in high definition. Ironically the SACD player feature which I valued most highly, Sony dropped. I don't like being abandoned. :(

reincarnate

08-28-08, 08:08 PM

I've examined the effects of sharp, color and contrast modes in some depth.
Sharp is essentially a real-time photographers unsharp mask with halo suppression used in conjunction with their super-duper upconversion to 1920*1080 pixels. Since there is only 8 bits of pixel depth to work with, the 3D noise reduction is essential, so as to not degrade the picture quality.
Contrast is like Nikon D-lighting were the lower luminance levels near black are increased.
I don't use the color much but it does make the sky bluer as claimed.
The icing is the 24Hz playback which reduces motion blur for film sources as no interpolated blur frames are introduced for 60Hz conversion. I saw the old John Wayne Harari where they show animals running in the distance. The clarity of the animals was never blurred in their fast motion. A first for SD playback. The Toshiba lets you see 24 clear images per second. I could almost count 'em!

These tools and features are long overdue in the video world.

Note: 4:3/1.33 aspect ratio can be displayed perfectly by turning off the XDE processing and then selecting 480p resolution. Both can be controlled by the remote.

bruceames

08-28-08, 08:15 PM

Did some digging with a friend of mine, and cracked my player open.

It's the same Zoran setup as in the 1080P7 from Samsung, which costs about half the price.

"Zoran’s Vaddis 966 + HDXtreme®2"

Hows that for a rip off :lol:

I highly doubt Toshiba has programmed it any better, lol. I certainly do not see it. Hype.

Well you cracked the case. Congrats. Now I'll be getting back to watching my Zoran-based XDE player while being fooled into thinking it really smokes my XA2.

lujan

08-28-08, 08:34 PM

...

Note: 4:3/1.33 aspect ratio can be displayed perfectly by turning off the XDE processing and then selecting 480p resolution. Both can be controlled by the remote.

What would happen if you left the XDE processing on and then selected 480p resolution? Wouldn't the processing be turned off by default?

smithb

08-28-08, 09:28 PM

Note: 4:3/1.33 aspect ratio can be displayed perfectly by turning off the XDE processing and then selecting 480p resolution. Both can be controlled by the remote.

But then your 4:3 material get no benefits correct? I suppose then it acts like any other average player at that point. Does anyone know a reason why 4:3 material would be a problem to handle in its OAR during processing? Or do we just have to wait for the next generation, hopefully.

lexicon1

08-28-08, 10:16 PM

You obviously know something that others dont.
I am not trying to insult you, but, you will probably perceive it as so.
The odds are , you have a system in which YOU can not tell the difference between a good DVD player and a bad DVD player, otherwise, the majority of the guys on this thread dont know their SD from a hole in the ground !
I sincereley doubt you have the aptitude to make an unbiased comparison, and, judging from one other person's response to you, I am not alone.
I am going to assume you dont have your system optimized to bring out the positive attributes of the XDE.
I dont own one yet, but, there are many "unscientific" evaluations going on and of course, absolutes that are proclaimed based on their poor testing. So, from my point of view, I ain't placing any merit in your statement.
Thanks
I'm staring at the picture from an XDE right now, and I'm telling you guys, it looks like crap.

It's not even as sharp where it counts (in focus areas) as the 980H. The 983H pretty much blows it away.

Is Toshiba even serious?!

Neuromancer

08-28-08, 11:03 PM

"Pot Calling the Kettle Black"

The odds are , you have a system in which YOU can not tell the difference between a good DVD player and a bad DVD player ...
I sincereley doubt you have the aptitude to make an unbiased comparison ...
I dont own one yet ...

As you have no personal basis to defend the XDE, I would refrain from using such inflammatory statements.

joltdudeuc has the player and has expressed displeasure in the picture quality. If you disagree with his statements, ask him questions that will illuminate the reasons behind his claims, rather than delving direct into insults and slander.

lexicon1

08-28-08, 11:40 PM

Greetings,
With your over 4000 posts in this forum, would you say that, based on his comment. "This looks like crap", that this does not inflame the majority of those who have explained how they tested, what they tested and came up with comments explaining their conclusions.
You are correct to defend this poster, but, dont forget the other posters here who have made valid constructive contributions,(of course except my comments)
So, I will ask joltdudec, what was your basis, what is your system, tell us why your eloquence totally negates the majority of those in this thread.?
"Pot Calling the Kettle Black"

As you have no personal basis to defend the XDE, I would refrain from using such inflammatory statements.

joltdudeuc has the player and has expressed displeasure in the picture quality. If you disagree with his statements, ask him questions that will illuminate the reasons behind his claims, rather than delving direct into insults and slander.

bruceames

08-28-08, 11:50 PM

It's possible he just got a bad player. I've heard of a few cases where players were returned and exchanged for another and that solved the problem.

All I know is that this player is fantastic with anamorphic DVD, and it looks significantly better than my XA2 when comparing any same DVDs that are anamorphic. However the player will not upscale 4:3 nor non-anamorphic material so my XA2 will continue to get DVD use for those.

Li On

08-29-08, 12:33 AM

Does the E500 output 480i (and PAL 576i with the all region hack) via HDMI? I want to make sure if in some case I can bypass the internal process and use an video processor or TV/projector internal processing is needed.

IMO the most attactive selling point is 1080p24 output. From user comment, it seems work well with "good" flag film DVD. But how about poor or bad flag film source DVD in 1080p24 output?

Thanks in advance.

regards,

Li On

monomer

08-29-08, 12:47 AM

I picked up a BH200 today that I'd purchased online and while I was in town I decided to visit CC and ended up with an impulse purchase of an XDE. I have been following these threads quite closely and my curiosity just got the better of me (and my wallet). Anyway I got it home and immediately disconnected the HDMI from my Oppo 980H and plugged it into the Tosh. After diddling with it for much of the evening I've decided to return it tomorrow.

My set-up is a Sony VW-60 front PJ onto a 97" screen to obtain 12ftL from my calibrated set-up (using an i1 with HCFR to dial in my grey scale and the ImageDirector software to custom my gamma curve). My set-up is razor sharp 1080p in a totally light controlled theater with matt black walls and burgundy velveteen accents. My honest evaluation of the XDE in my theater... Nothing is free! The XDE adds more sharpness than the Oppo but at a cost of a lot of edge ringing. This artifact is most notable when viewing details in the distance... like moving people from afar. Close up the ringing, though still present is not a problem at all since the image is so large and the number of pixels involved in the ringing are relatively so small. But its when you get so many edges very close in proximity that it all begins to run together and produce very strange aberrations. I believe the reason it is so prevalent and obvious to me is that my screen is so big and I was sitting in the front row (yes, I have two rows of seating) and so viewing a 97" screen from about 10 feet back makes the ringing around the edges on details very annoying. I can see where if someone were to sit further back or is viewing on a smaller screen, this edge ringing around the smaller details would not appear as such a big deal but for me its really pretty bad. My Oppo on the other hand can have the sharpness set to high and there is only a very minimal ringing around objects... of course its not quite as sharp either... ah but alas, that is the trade off. Nothing comes free! The color and contrast options are nice because they are subtle yet effective enough to be noticed. I believe the contrast slightly lowers gamma at the 'darker end' and color gives a very slight boost to certain shades of blue and green... mostly seen in grass and sky. The 24fps seems to not do much over 60fps on my Sony... motion is relatively smooth all the time either way... I notice this also with my Blu-Rays too. So in the end I don't see a compelling reason to keep this player but can understand how it might be just the ticket for someone with a smaller screen. Also it doesn't have the SACD and DVD-A capabilities my audio library requires... this is a problem only because all my HDMI connections are used and requires I sacrifice my Oppo connection. I had really hoped this player would completely WOW me but unfortunately it didn't quite work out that way... so tomorrow back it goes. The big bummer for me in all this is that each trip to town and back eats up $30 in gas... so I spend $60 and 4-hours driving with nothing to show for it.

Doug G

08-29-08, 08:56 AM

I've confirmed the following RCE titles play fine with no user intervention following the region-free method mentioned earlier in this thread (from videohelp)

Tears of the Sun
Once Upon a Time in Mexico
Spider-man
The 6th Day
Hollow Man
The Patriot

Thanks to Ron for letting me delve into his rather extensive collection to test these out!

Li On - No 480i over HDMI, 480p+ only. Its marginal with poorly flagged material. In 30p/60i modes it may be less noticeable but in 24p mode, when it drops to video at bad flags or cadence breaks, there's some serious judder/breakup. Usually only lasts a second or so and I've only seen it occur on one or two chapter points where flags are typically messed up due to bad edits. Check secrets for a list of problematic DVDs and note that almost all have bad flags at chapter points!

monomer - Kudos to you, nice review. I wish all dissenters could be as civil and logical. I'm sorry you didn't find it to be beneficial over your Oppo 980. As I mentioned previously, when Ron and I compared directly to his XA2 using a fully calibrated RS1 in a similar light controlled dedicated theater room on a 120" screen, we found the XDE did a darn respectable job. Not as clean as an XA2, but considering the price, it well exceeded our expectations. We did detect a bit of ringing around some objects with the XDE that wasn't there on the XA2 but using the sharpness control on the PJ (set to -2 for XDE, previously 0 for XA2) were able to mitigate that well enough that we felt it wasn't an issue.

I can understand how some feel the picture is more "natural", even if it is softer, on the Oppo players. But for me (RS1x at 104") I think it looks great considering what I paid and the 24fps is the clincher.