~$1000.00

HDMI 1.3 With Bitstream Audio Ability. Even as simple as 1 in 1 out.

Greyscale Adjustments

CMS!!!

Gamma Controls

That’s it. Whoever does this first will make a killing!!!

Most people that would buy a VP...,

A. Have a Display with proper (Good) Scaling/de interlacing,
b. Have a Audio Video Processor with proper (Good) Scaling/de interlacing
or
c. have a source device that already outputs 1080P 24 Blu-ray/HD-DVD - 1080P 60 upscaling DVD...

This is what the market NEEDS!!! :)

I need other to comment as well, as we would like a manufacture or many manufactures to get this message.

Good denoising (which has fine adjustments and can turned off if desired) is a must as well IMO. And no, ABT, your MNR isn't enough.

Vertical stretch for CIH setups.

Ron

I have expressed similar feelings to both Lumagen and Anchor Bay folks.

More than once.

Anchor Bay doesn't seem much interested in calibration controls, and I am even beginning to wonder if perhaps they have not decided to concede the high-end market to Lumagen entirely. In past years, by this time they have announced an update to their flagship processor, but this year they have so far only announced an inexpensive entry-level processor that has fewer features than the VP50 Pro and certainly none of the calibration features you mention.

Lumagen has all of the features you mention, but only in their very expensive flagship processor, the Radiance. My guess is that they don't want to market a product such as you suggest for fear of it cannabalizing sales of the Radiance. The Vision series comes the closest I suppose, but the CMS doesn't work very well, nor does it process HDMI audio. It is good for gamma/grayscale though.

Edge Blending, but I got two Tv-One C2-2250s to take care of that, And they listen to what customers want, they are adding 21 point gamma and have gamma in the blend zone, along with some color controls and more in the future. I bit expensive since thay are for commercial use, but an edge blending scaler for under 4 gs(2 of them) its nor a bad deal, Lumagen said they might add it to the Radiance but i wont hold my breath.

Nashou

My number one request is a reasonably priced VP with a fullly fledged and flexible CMS - full primary and secondary lightness/hue/saturation controls and at least 11-point parametric greyscale and gamma adjustments. I own a VP50 and I love it, but given most display manufacturers' creative approach to their displays' color gamuts and white balance, having a CMS to fix that would be HUGE. I'm currently in the market for a 2nd VP, and I'm going to wait and see what CES brings, but if anyone can offer a VP with a CMS at a reasonable price, they'll have my money.

Excellent SD broadcast PQ restoration (de-noising, sharpening, artifact removal, detail enhancement etc.)

This is #1 issue thanks to the greedy providers and their totally retarded compressions and overall picture quality destruction. :mad:

This is #1 issue thanks to the greedy providers and their totally retarded compressions and overall picture quality destruction. :mad:

I totally agree with you, I hate watching something that's been compressed to the point of almost being unwatchable.

But no matter how good the processing, you can't polish a turd.

I'd just as soon see providers giving us some higher quality material that doesn't look like it just got shot out of my garbage disposal so I can use my VP's processing power for other fancy things.

I totally agree with you, I hate watching something that's been compressed to the point of almost being unwatchable.

But no matter how good the processing, you can't polish a turd.

You can never make SD look like HD, but you can usually make it look a lot less bad. You should see some of the advanced noise reduction algorithms that are available on PCs. Most of them are very slow, unfortunately, though dedicated silicon could make them doable.

Because of the limited and lack of adjustments in most displays inc projectors as well as poor scaling, A good feature rich Video Processor has the ability to add the missing much needed tools thus has the ability to add A huge amount to the picture quality.
Unfortunately as far as VP manufactures are concerned this added functionallity has clearly not been fully exploited or recognized "besides LUMAGEN" as potentially one of the most important key features of A VP and using this asset as an added selling point.
So What makes A good High end VP besides excellent deinterlacing and scaling

IMO.. A fully implemented CMS, and 21 point Gray scale/Gamma are A must.
A full set of internal test patterns.
Separate Adjustments for inputs and outputs, So First the VP can aid in the calibration of the Display and Second the VP can aid in the accurate calibration of the source.
The VP must have HDMI 1.3 inputs and pass HD codecs .
Have at least 2 HDMI 1.3 outputs. To allow audio to sound processor/Video to display.
It must also have some type of lip sync.
allow for fully customizable output resolutions.
Allow for multiple profiles per input and output's, and have the ability to auto detect the input signal and match with the correct assigned output profile.....
thats my take on it..

So What makes A good High end VP besides excellent deinterlacing and scaling

IMO.. A fully implemented CMS, and 21 point Gray scale/Gamma are A must.The bottom line is that most people purchase an external processor to get a better picture. These features are what is most likely to get you that. So, yes, I agree with you. I think that consumers are ahead of the manufacturers on this point.

I wouldn't even care if they took out all scaling and deinterlacing. Just Offer a VP for calibration only if need be. For others there is the Radiance.

I wouldn't even care if they took out all scaling and deinterlacing. Just Offer a VP for calibration only if need be. For others there is the Radiance.

They'd lose 90% of their customer base. A lot of people in this thread want it for calibration, but I can guarantee you even more want it for deinterlacing.

They can offer a Calibration only VP for $1000.00 and it would sell like hot cakes.

Add everything else for $2000.00 and give people the option.

They can offer a Calibration only VP for $1000.00 and it would sell like hot cakes.

On this site, maybe. In the big picture, absolutely not. Now I'm not in business so I don't know whether it would be worth their while or not. I'm not against them doing it even though I would never buy it or recommend it.

I'm not against them doing it even though I would never buy it or recommend it.Why, if I may ask?

Why, if I may ask?

Because I don't think CMS can ever be worth $1000, and quality deinterlacing and noise reduction are IMO 10x more important each. If your opinion differs, so be it.

I wouldn't even care if they took out all scaling and deinterlacing. Just Offer a VP for calibration only if need be. For others there is the Radiance.

You are completely clueless about this market, I am telling you. :D

There needs to be a new market for people that already have good scalers/deinterlacers (AKA good source devices - you are not going to pair a $100.00 DVD player with a $4500.00 radiance :eek:)...

If you spending $4500.00 on a VP, I'm sure you have decent Source Devices.

I want to fix what the manufacture for the display device decided to leave out.

At this point a great deinterlacer/scaler/de-noise VP is only good for Cable/Satellite feeds.

Because I don't think CMS can ever be worth $1000, and quality deinterlacing and noise reduction are IMO 10x more important each. If your opinion differs, so be it.

What is your applications? Source devices?

I run all 1080P source devices

HTPC 1080P 60 (Native)
Blu-Ray - 1080P 24 (Native)
DVD - 1080P 60 (upscaled via PS3)

So for me I don't need anything but calibration features.

What is your applications? Source devices?

I run all 1080P source devices

HTPC 1080P 60 (Native)
Blu-Ray - 1080P 24 (Native)
DVD - 1080P 60 (upscaled via PS3)

So for me I don't need anything but calibration features.

In my profile. I also have digital cable which is in DIRE need of some VERY good denoising. A lot of my DVDs are of less than stellar quality and are in need of the noise reduction as well.

HD sources are not always free from the need for noise reduction, especially cable/sat., but some BDs/HD-DVDs do as well. Not to mention 1080i material that needs good deinterlacing as well....

I would buy a standalone CMS unit if it could be had for less than $1000.

In my profile. I also have digital cable which is in DIRE need of some VERY good denoising. A lot of my DVDs are of less than stellar quality and are in need of the noise reduction as well.

HD sources are not always free from the need for noise reduction, especially cable/sat., but some BDs/HD-DVDs do as well. Not to mention 1080i material that needs good deinterlacing as well....

OK so you do have the sources that need these features. But... There is already solutions avail for everything you need. AKA very exspensive, but avail.

I just need, and others I know as well, a VP for Calibration ONLY! For alot cheaper, and as simple as 1 in / 1 out. I could put it on the output of the A/V receiver thats already acting as my HDMI 1.3 switch.

99.9 % of the Displays and Sources Device's out there dont have A good built in Deinterlacer/scaler or the adjustment needed to get there Display's to perform to its best.
So give us A fully implemented VP with these must have features and most will go for it once they understand that there new VP is as important investment as there Display to complete the full "BIG SCREEN" Experience.
The first VP company that can fully Deliver on features as mentioned in my previous post
will be the market leader wthout A doubt....

Basically what it comes down to is that I want a RadianceXD with further improved noise reduction at half the price. I wouldn't mind if the calibration features were lessened if need be but I'm not going to say they SHOULD be, because I know some people consider them a must-have.

There needs to be a new market for people that already have good scalers/deinterlacers (AKA good source devices - you are not going to pair a $100.00 DVD player with a $4500.00 radiance :eek:)...

If you spending $4500.00 on a VP, I'm sure you have decent Source Devices.

I want to fix what the manufacture for the display device decided to leave out.

At this point a great deinterlacer/scaler/de-noise VP is only good for Cable/Satellite feeds.

Mostly that's the point, yes. However it's more than ridiculous to claim that for a $2-3k scaler you cannot have $200 DVD player - it actually goes against logic: why would I spend so much on a scaler if I would have spent another $10k already on various sources?
Have you ever seen HD DVD players, like XA2 or A35? Both are top quality scalers yet they cost $200 or less. Check out current Oppo prices, also dirt cheap. This "mustbe expensive" is the biggest snobbish nonsense and unfortunately the average cluelessness enforces it.

For me the main point in any scaler for me is to have a central point where everything gets properly scaled-treated-sorted-routed based on input and output etc.
Now whether it's in the AVR or TV or it's a dedicated piece, I don't care - but so far I haven't seen anything comparable to a dedicated unit (sans aforementioned DVD players and alikes.)

What is your applications? Source devices?

I run all 1080P source devices

HTPC 1080P 60 (Native)
Blu-Ray - 1080P 24 (Native)
DVD - 1080P 60 (upscaled via PS3)

So for me I don't need anything but calibration features.

Bingo! Sweet ignorance... :cool: :D

You know that your PS3 is far from a top quality DVD player when it comes to scaling SD, right?
And just what the hell is coming out of your HTPC @1080p60?
Let me guess: craptastic 1080i60 cable/sat rips, downloaded from the net, deinterlaced to 1080p60? Because if I'm right then your VGA card is doing the scaling which is a pretty crappy stuff compared to any dedicated scaler...

As I said, ignorance is a huge driving-selling force in this industry... :cool:

You know that your PS3 is far from a top quality DVD player when it comes to scaling SD, right?

No, actually it's quite good. Not 983 good, but still up there. It used to be bad, and then the firmware updates fixed it.

Yes, there was that INCORRECT Secrets review after the firmware update with very little scientific data to back it up, but as I said, it was downright wrong.

No, actually it's quite good. Not 983 good, but still up there. It used to be bad, and then the firmware updates fixed it.


When did it just happen? Earlier this year it was still considered a mediocre player.


Yes, there was that INCORRECT Secrets review after the firmware update with very little scientific data to back it up, but as I said, it was downright wrong.

I have no idea what's that "Secrets" stuff but I have seen it side-by-side and it was a lot softer than my A35. Same thing was reported by dual owners here. Now obviously a lot depends on the source DVD and your units in the chain (display!) but what I have ever seen was always softer than the current top crop (XA2, A35, 983 etc.)

I am with you, SOWK, on the the $1k calibration box with those features that you outline.

I care much, much less about other image processing features because I am mostly watching 1080p bluray material now-a-days.

This is fast becoming irrelevant though because many manufacturers now appear to recognize that these kinds of features are expected in the display itself. This is why Lumagen is hoping to become more of an OEM. It hopes to incorporate its technology in other's products. I hope that this happens.

Frankly, the Vision line from Lumagen gives very good results, even with gamut. I recently had a Radiance in my theater but switched back to a Vision because colors looked the same, even in material that I was very familiar with. I am sure that in a side by side comparison that I could not a differnce, but standing apart, they are extremely close. The gamut controls are a real pain to use, but they work well.

I fully expect that my next projector will be an all-in-one solution and I will need no external VP at all.

When did it just happen? Earlier this year it was still considered a mediocre player.



I have no idea what's that "Secrets" stuff but I have seen it side-by-side and it was a lot softer than my A35. Same thing was reported by dual owners here. Now obviously a lot depends on the source DVD and your units in the chain (display!) but what I have ever seen was always softer than the current top crop (XA2, A35, 983 etc.)

Secrets is the site.

I use PS3 to deinterlace and my VP50 to scale and SLIGHTLY sharpen and it does a good, but not great, job. This is what I do for subtitled DVDs. I use my Oppo 970 to give 480i to the VP50 with my other DVDs. The 970 deinterlaces poorly and I need to IVTC+deinterlace before adding subtitles (as the subtitles screw up the process if they are added first).

And just what the hell is coming out of your HTPC @1080p60?
Let me guess: craptastic 1080i60 cable/sat rips, downloaded from the net, deinterlaced to 1080p60? Because if I'm right then your VGA card is doing the scaling which is a pretty crappy stuff compared to any dedicated scaler...

As I said, ignorance is a huge driving-selling force in this industry... :cool:


First of all ignorance is not a factor here...

I only use my HTPC for Website look up, and Video Games at true 1080P 60FPS.

I don't watch any TV on my projector in the theater room, that’s what I have my TV's for. And I don't watch crappy recorded programs to begin with.

I also don't even have cable TV, Over the air HD is of higher quality then cable / satellite anyhow. The only thing I would want a better deinterlacer for is video (Live Sporting events.) All my TV's already support IVTC Film based deinterlacing.

All my TV's already support IVTC Film based deinterlacing.

I don't know what processing chips your TVs have, nor do I know the material you watch on them, and perhaps it is "easy" material that they can handle. But I can tell you that IVTC is, for most source material, no easier to perform than deinterlacing, and few solutions do a good job with it if you present any kind of challenging material.

I don't know what processing chips your TVs have, nor do I know the material you watch on them, and perhaps it is "easy" material that they can handle. But I can tell you that IVTC is, for most source material, no easier to perform than deinterlacing, and few solutions do a good job with it if you present any kind of challenging material.


IVTC should work or not. Video based material deinterlacing is the difficult one and has many different versions.

Anything that Bob's 1080I to 540P is not doing IVTC.

IVTC converts interlaced frames back into their original progressive frame. Then the pull down will output to match your display devices natural input Htz mode. 60Htz for most NTSC or 24Htz on newer compatible sets.

IVTC should work or not. Video based material deinterlacing is the difficult one and has many different versions.

Anything that Bob's 1080I to 540P is not doing IVTC.

IVTC converts interlaced frames back into their original progressive frame. Then the pull down will output to match your display devices natural input Htz mode. 60Htz for most NTSC or 24Htz on newer compatible sets.

In the ideal world, yes, but try actually working with IVTCed content. Different scenes often change their patterns and sometimes multiple overlays are used with different patterns, so you've got different elements on one stream with different patterns making normal IVTC impossible. It is extremely common to need to do a combination of IVTC and deinterlacing.

Also, good deinterlacing is not the same as "bobbing to 540P." That is called a dumb bob, and anything doing it is, well, dumb, and not worth a dollar of your money.

Also, many processing chips don't do IVTC at all.

IVTC should work or not. Video based material deinterlacing is the difficult one and has many different versions.

Anything that Bob's 1080I to 540P is not doing IVTC.

IVTC converts interlaced frames back into their original progressive frame. Then the pull down will output to match your display devices natural input Htz mode. 60Htz for most NTSC or 24Htz on newer compatible sets.

Priceless.:cool:

Someone has been reading Wikipedia again:rolleyes:

Back to the subject of the thread - I've talked to a major VP company that's working on a CMS solution. It will not come in the form of a CMS-only box that has been discussed here, but it will be available for a currently existing product. That's all I can say right now, but companies ARE listening.

But at what price point?

We technically have it already with the Radiance.

It can only Be DVDO or LUMAGEN that are working on A CMS because they are the 2 major players.
Because Lumagen already have A working CMS in there flagship Radiance that means more than likely its DVDO
I hope DVDO see the light and adds the much needed tools to the VP50pro
so I can feel assured I made the right choice :D ....

There are other companies out there aside from DVDO and Lumagen...

Yeah But they are the 2 main players in the game

Um, Pixel Magic?

What I ant allowed to dream that DVDO will bring out A fully implemented tool kit in the VP50pro ;).. Um Pixelmagic "who is that" :D there not up there with the other 2 are they when it comes to the cheaper commercialy avalible Video processors?....

Some of the non Scaling TV one units I think have a cms also but not as full featured as the Lumagens who at this point has the best solution out there but at a 4000 dollar cost, a used Vision series is the cheapest solutuoin right now.

Athanasios

But with NO HDMI and no 1080P 60 Htz input, IMO kills the lumagen Series for me and my needs.

And price puts me out of the Radiance XD being in my system.

Someone has been reading Wikipedia again:rolleyes:

ROFL:cool:

A box that could do only color adjustments/greyscale and overscan adjustments couldn't be that expensive to mass produce I wouldn't have thought?

This is the sort of stuff that could be produced in Asia (for instance) very inexpensively. 3 HDMI inputs, one output, individual settings per input perhaps........... maybe some day!

Paul

A box that could do only color adjustments/greyscale and overscan adjustments couldn't be that expensive to mass produce I wouldn't have thought?



"Mass Produce" means to make millions of them. The market for this kind of thing is very small, perhaps a few tens of thousand a year. That is why the Radiance is expensive to begin with.

ROFL:cool:

You guys serious... I learned about IVTC years ago (talking with Pat from lumagen) when the Toshiba A1 was released and I wanted to turn their crappy 1080I only output into 1080P 60Htz (1080P 24Htz was not available at that time for the lumagen) So its only natural to want to know how to get the best out of our expensive systems. I owned the Sony Pearl at that time, AKA when it was first released. Maybe I am just a few years ahead of you guys... :D But anyway back on topic.

[QUOTE=SOWK;14566092
Maybe I am just a few years ahead of you guys... :D But anyway back on topic.[/QUOTE]

Age does not guarantee knowledge. Nor does spouting terms-often incorrectly:D

"Mass Produce" means to make millions of them. The market for this kind of thing is very small, perhaps a few tens of thousand a year. That is why the Radiance is expensive to begin with.

You are so correct and those tens of thousands are split between a number of manufacturers. It appears DVDO and Gefen are attempting to enter the under $1k market with offerings. I doubt CMS will be offered by either.

"Mass Produce" means to make millions of them. The market for this kind of thing is very small, perhaps a few tens of thousand a year. That is why the Radiance is expensive to begin with.

I appreciate your point and do actually agree BUT..... I just bought an HDMI Balun repeater (HDCP compliant, to feed HiDef directly to a second TV from a single source many yards away), the market for that is tiny, probably way less than the numbers of VP's sold in any given period, yet it cost peanuts and works very well indeed - sourced from China. The big brand versions cost many, many times more, way out of my league price-wise.

A few tens of thousands a year may be more than enough, maybe even a few thousand a year may be enough for a simple dedicated device. It may happen, the VP market is getting bigger and prices are there to be undercut.

If all we are talking about is CMS and Overscan plus a few other bells and whistles in a small box then its entirely do-able, cheap electronics without being over-complicated. Start to throw in de-interlacing algorithms etc, etc then its a no-go I would think but you never know.

Electronics are dirt-cheap, coding that goes into them aren't and thats why we will likely never see a full-blown Radiance look-alike from China but a simple box of tricks is more than do-able.....!

I'd be suprised if such a basic device cost more than $100 from our far-east friends, perhaps less.

A few tens of thousands a year may be more than enough, maybe even a few thousand a year may be enough for a simple dedicated device. It may happen, the VP market is getting bigger and prices are there to be undercut.

The one thing that is true is that as price goes up, demand goes down. Conversely, if price goes down, demand will go up.

The question for any of these companies is, how much will they make at the end of the day if prices are cut so drastically? They don't want lower priced products to eliminate demand for their flagships.

Let's face it, very few people, even those with high end systems, need the number of imputs that a product like the Radiance uses. Thus, we can assume that if Lumagen offered an around $1k product, that perhaps 90% of its customer base would opt for the cheaper one. Lumagen could cripple the cheaper one by removing features, but that kind of defeats the purpose, doesn't it.

Now, if a Radiance-like product were availabe for around $1k, would demand grow by the four or five times (perhaps more) that would be necessary for Lumagen to remain at least profit neutral? Who really knows and would you bet your company on the fact that it would?

Personally, ideally, we would see Lumagen-like controls in receivers and displays. These things sell many more units and it would ultimately be cheaper to implement it in these kinds of products. Plus, we could all get rid of one box.