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Like what? This is a basic start to show you why LPCM and bitstream are both lossless.

Kal,

Thanks. The original version of the Valis (digital out only) was really dumb, smart that they revised that and added analog outs to the unit.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the digital outputs when it goes through HDMI/HDCP licensing.

Shawn

Like what? This is a basic start to show you why LPCM and bitstream are both lossless.

Just citing Wikipedia on the article you cited.

So you know for sure that theta runs a "better" power supply, and how is a better power supply going to affect digital processing? So you just assume, did you read the link I posted?



Mr placebo.

What do you get by arguing with a pinhead?


A: Predictable response all the time!!!@@@ (Inotherwards, I am the dummy for in good faith answering the pinhead!))

Kal,

Thanks. The original version of the Valis (digital out only) was really dumb, smart that they revised that and added analog outs to the unit.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the digital outputs when it goes through HDMI/HDCP licensing.

ShawnYup. Things change.

I wonder if Theta will include Dolby Volume Control? I know there was no mention of it. I had a demo and it was nice watching broadcast shows when the volume remained the same during commercials.

Maybe add that to the wish list or upgrades.

Just citing Wikipedia on the article you cited.

So can you or do you want to discuss the technicals about why LPCM and bistream will give you the same outcome?

What do you get by arguing with a pinhead?


A: Predictable response all the time!!!@@@ (Inotherwards, I am the dummy for in good faith answering the pinhead!))

But you said "but I don't have the practical subjective ability to measure this or the objective engineering info to offer an opinion in this regard." and yet you call me a pinhead? You can not participate in a discussion and make outrageous assumptions and call me a pinhead. So you assume that theta's power supplies will increase the speed of the DSP chip/chips or how does the power supply change the process of open and closed tranistors? In fact how many dedicated power supplies does the theta run?

I don't know that the CB3 HDMI 1.3 will sound better due to decoding to LPCM in the processor, as opposed to decoding to LPCM in the player. Its possible that the CB3's better power supply, shielding, etc could make a sonic improvement in this one category, but I don't have the practical subjective ability to measure this or the objective engineering info to offer an opinion in this regard.
.............

great answer. My sentiments exactly. We don't really know if there will be a significant difference in SQ using the Theta....but we're hoping. At least that's my opinion. On a more technical note, it is certainly arguable that "lossless is lossless" no matter where you find it.

Like what? This is a basic start to show you why LPCM and bitstream are both lossless.

I agree. It's not the sun, moon, and stars on LPCM. Just the basics.

great answer. My sentiments exactly. We don't really know if there will be a significant difference in SQ using the Theta....but we're hoping. At least that's my opinion. On a more technical note, it is certainly arguable that "lossless is lossless" no matter where you find it.

From experience these past years we can predict the likelihood that the CB 3 HDMI 1.3 audio bitstream processing and DAC conversion and analog ouptut will give those of us with hi resolution audio and ear/brain (not Doug Winsor_ better sonics than even the incredible Integra 9.8. I'm simply saying that whether you decode LPCM in the player vs in the processor won't necessarily make a difference - but once I get the CB3 HDMI 1.3 upgrade, I'll try it and listen to hear if there's any appreciable difference. And then you know what pinhead will come on to tell me I'm hearing things one way or another. What else is new???

What happens to those that buy other HDMI devices/switchers?Which ones? I've tried Gefen switchers and DVDO video processors with the MC-12HD and got no speaker pop. Since the Lumagen problem has been resolved, what "other HDMI devices/switchers" were you talking about (so I can avoid them)?

Sanjay

Which ones? I've tried Gefen switchers and DVDO video processors with the MC-12HD and got no speaker pop. Since the Lumagen problem has been resolved, what "other HDMI devices/switchers" were you talking about (so I can avoid them)?

Sanjay

It was a general statement. Hopefully you don't experience problems with other products. I have not bought and tried all the possible HDMI solutions to test with the MC-12. I don't have time to do that. I believe the onus is on LEX to make certain their HDMI is done by the book. I've inquired with Lex to see what they plan on doing (if anything at all). I'll push through my dealer rep too if need be.

The good news for Lex and Halcro owners is that with Theta pushing the HDMI 1.3 audio bar, that this will create market pressure for Lex and Halcro to move to HDMI 1.3 audio perhaps earlier than they would otherwise. But whether good upgrade pricing would be available for current Lex and Halcro HDMI LPCM processing only owners remains to be seen! Suddenly Theta Digital has leapfrogged to the top of the class!!!

It was a general statement.Got it. I was just curious what specific HDMI "issues" you meant, since your sole example had already been resolved.

Sanjay

Got it. I was just curious what specific HDMI "issues" you meant, since your sole example had already been resolved.

Sanjay

Wouldn't you expect a 10-12K product to be error free? Or rely on other peoples workarounds? If I myself spend that kind of money for a quality piece of gear, expect quality all the way around. If this was a "TOKYO BY NIGHT" piece of equipment, well I would have lower expectations knowing you get what you pay for.

If they choose not to address it, that is their prerogative. Their actions will demonstrate what type of company they will be regarded as.

Next time your radiator hose blows...just put some tape on it. Hey it's a workaround right?

Wouldn't you expect a 10-12K product to be error free?No. What modern pre-pro is without a single error? Before answering, do a search to make sure there are no threads discussing its glitches. If they choose not to address it, that is their prerogative.Assuming the problem is solely theirs, even though it didn't happen with the video processor out of the loop and you couldn't give another example (let alone point to a pattern of this behavior to support your "general statement"). Far cry from your original claim of HMDI "issues" (plural).

Sanjay

"Suddenly Theta Digital has leapfrogged to the top of the class!!!"

So how does HDMI sound through the Theta?

Can't go to the head of the class on product announcements alone, you gotta have an actual product. ;)

Shawn

"Wouldn't you expect a 10-12K product to be error free? Or rely on other peoples workarounds? If I myself spend that kind of money for a quality piece of gear, expect quality all the way around."

Seriously?

If Theta's implementation of HDMI works as well as Lexicon's you should consider yourself very lucky. After all you are talking about a company that has had lots of problems with basic S/PDIF format detection, HDMI is far more complex then that.

Shawn

FOr the Theta guys, I hope this is true... But I still find it hard to believe. Now granted, compared to others they are already 2-3 years late on HDMI, so really, 'it's about time'.. So, I guess the timings right but I would estimate this comes to be as others (e.g. Lexicon, Meridian) release HDMI 1.3 fully new designed products... 2009?

Yes, it was shown and it now has analog outputs to make it compatible with regular power amps.

Cool. The Valis seems like a very promising product also! Are these products still a vision and prototypes or are they soon ready for production? I just hope they haven't cheated us and placed some HDMI connectors there for marketing only and without any actual software or processing inside the box...

Has there been any demos of the new Valis or CB III with a HDMI 1.3 Blu-ray player yet??

Since the Valis has analog outputs:

1) Is there still going to be a Virtu?
2) I wonder what level the DACs are in the Valis (close or equivalent to Premiums, Superior II's, or Extremes) ?

I am getting bombarded with HDMI upgrade questions - Wow, I never realized how many of my customers are enjoying their CBIII's and now chomping at the bit to get HDMI..

Well guys , Thanks so much for all the great years of support.. I got a call today asking if I would be taking care of the upgrades for our loyals and of course, we are prioritizing the list already and as everyone knows I will get everyone upgraded timely and cost effectively as well.

I am in communication with Theta many times a week and as things progress I will announce it on the AVS and keep everyone in the loop as well.

As we all know, This card will set the Casablanca III once again in a class that is untouched by any. The fact that we have successfully upgraded this machine for so many years without a hitch is amazing enough but once the HDMI card hits, Man oh man, that separates the men from the boys!!!

Looking forward to keeping you guys updated !

Craig ( Theatermax )

I am getting bombarded with HDMI upgrade questions - Wow, I never realized how many of my customers are enjoying their CBIII's and now chomping at the bit to get HDMI..

Well guys , Thanks so much for all the great years of support.. I got a call today asking if I would be taking care of the upgrades for our loyals and of course, we are prioritizing the list already and as everyone knows I will get everyone upgraded timely and cost effectively as well.

I am in communication with Theta many times a week and as things progress I will announce it on the AVS and keep everyone in the loop as well.

As we all know, This card will set the Casablanca III once again in a class that is untouched by any. The fact that we have successfully upgraded this machine for so many years without a hitch is amazing enough but once the HDMI card hits, Man oh man, that separates the men from the boys!!!

Looking forward to keeping you guys updated !

Craig ( Theatermax )

Craig, I am afraid your cell # right now is the hottest thing since phone sex!!!!
You (and Theta Digital) are in a class "untouched by any" (except you by the wife)!!!@@@

FOr the Theta guys, I hope this is true... But I still find it hard to believe. Now granted, compared to others they are already 2-3 years late on HDMI, so really, 'it's about time'.. So, I guess the timings right but I would estimate this comes to be as others (e.g. Lexicon, Meridian) release HDMI 1.3 fully new designed products... 2009?


Jeff, have you got on the list yet for an early CB3 HDMI 1.3 yet???:D

Theta Digital is now a "full speed ahead" company. ATI, its new owner, has the financial assets and engineering contacts and know how to proceed
"full speed ahead where no one has gone before" (Star Trek). You should get on board before the Enterprise takes off for its five year mission.

"You should get on board before the Enterprise takes off for its five year mission."

Which is what... bringing HDMI to the Theta? ;0

Shawn

"you should get on board before the enterprise takes off for its five year mission."

which is what... Bringing hdmi to the theta? ;0

shawn

lol

Jeff, have you got on the list yet for an early CB3 HDMI 1.3 yet???:D

Theta Digital is now a "full speed ahead" company. ATI, its new owner, has the financial assets and engineering contacts and know how to proceed
"full speed ahead where no one has gone before" (Star Trek). You should get on board before the Enterprise takes off for its five year mission.

I wonder if the reason most others are hesitating on HDMI or HDMI 1.3 is because of the new features coming out for processors from DTS and Dolby..

Dolby announced new capabilities that are coming to receivers that likely any new piece will not have (Dolby Volume control, Dolby Dynamics, etc).. DTS has speaker mapping coming which looks very slick and other nicities as well. I wonder if Lexicon / Meridian is waiting on these new features to mature and then bring out a new piece with ALL the new goodies. These features will require new hardware internally.

HDMI audio has been around for 4 years. Theta is finally adding it. I wonder, if in typical Theta 'slow to embrace' form, that after you guys pay $4K for basic HDMI 1.3 audio, that Dolby's and DTS's new add ons (which will require new hardware) will be announced... and then you're behind technology again (or have to wait another 4 years to get it).

As I see it HDMI 1.3 offers nothing over HDMI 1.2 LPCM audio, so the heavies like Lexicon are waiting until they can add something really new like DD and DTS new features (as they already have HDMI audio). Who knows?

I wonder if the reason most others are hesitating on HDMI or HDMI 1.3 is because of the new features coming out for processors from DTS and Dolby..

Dolby announced new capabilities that are coming to receivers that likely any new piece will not have (Dolby Volume control, Dolby Dynamics, etc).. DTS has speaker mapping coming which looks very slick and other nicities as well. I wonder if Lexicon / Meridian is waiting on these new features to mature and then bring out a new piece with ALL the new goodies. These features will require new hardware internally.

HDMI audio has been around for 4 years. Theta is finally adding it. I wonder, if in typical Theta 'slow to embrace' form, that after you guys pay $4K for basic HDMI 1.3 audio, that Dolby's and DTS's new add ons (which will require new hardware) will be announced... and then you're behind technology again (or have to wait another 4 years to get it).

As I see it HDMI 1.3 offers nothing over HDMI 1.2 LPCM audio, so the heavies like Lexicon are waiting until they can add something really new like DD and DTS new features (as they already have HDMI audio). Who knows?

More likely the "heavies" as you put it simply will wait another year or two to make money on their existing model/investment.

"More likely the "heavies" as you put it simply will wait another year or two to make money on their existing model/investment."

You don't have a full time engineering staff sitting around twiddling their thumbs for a year or two.

Shawn

"More likely the "heavies" as you put it simply will wait another year or two to make money on their existing model/investment."

You don't have a full time engineering staff sitting around twiddling their thumbs for a year or two.

Shawn

Youi are correct. I don't. You apparently think that Lexicon and Halcro are already moving towards HDMI audio 1.3 but aren't telling anyone until they're close to it. Don't you? Is your guess that they are maybe a year away from an announcement?

I think HDMI 1.3 is one part of it... but other features like what Dolby was touting at CEDIA and DTS's new features (amongst others) are coming... I see these types of new features as the hold up. Getting lossless over HDMI isn't anything new. New is new and those aforementioned features are very new and coming very soon.

Dolby announced new capabilities that are coming to receivers that likely any new piece will not have (Dolby Volume control, Dolby Dynamics, etc).. DTS has speaker mapping coming which looks very slick and other nicities as well. I wonder if Lexicon / Meridian is waiting on these new features to mature and then bring out a new piece with ALL the new goodies. These features will require new hardware internally.

Possible, but if Theta is not going to that now, can you imagine how much noise from this forum and others will produce, 6 months ago and now it is like day and night different, right? For me, I much prefer this way and I hope this will be a bigger step than that and if Theta engineers are smart enough, they should have plan, not necessary the hardware and software, in this build already. Also, it will making better business sense if they come out now and capture more market share, why doing a face to face fight with Lexicon or Meridian together if they can do it early, today. All we can hope now is next "Dolby Volume control, Dolby Dynamics, etc" upgrade will be a smaller job and cost less. Is that all the CB open architecture all about?

HDMI audio has been around for 4 years. Theta is finally adding it. I wonder, if in typical Theta 'slow to embrace' form, that after you guys pay $4K for basic HDMI 1.3 audio, that Dolby's and DTS's new add ons (which will require new hardware) will be announced... and then you're behind technology again (or have to wait another 4 years to get it).

hmm... I think we just somewhat starting 1.3b to be stable and mature stage, some of the features in 1.3b are still under developments. I think since mid to end of last year, all BD lossless format such as TrueHD and DTS MA are coming to us in a big wave. But 4 years ago, HDMI up to HDMI 1.2, I think we were able to use other input options, but not lossless format due to bandwidth issue inside the cable, right?

Steve,

All I meant is you don't have a full time engineering staff sitting around doing nothing.

What HSG is working on I don't know. What they were working on was the #502.

"but aren't telling anyone until they're close to it."

That is what Lexicon has always done. There was maybe 3 or 4 weeks between announcing the MC-12HD and shipping the MC-12HD. Ditto most of the upgrades for the MC-12 and so on.

Shawn

"But 4 years ago, HDMI up to HDMI 1.2, I think we were able to use other input options, but not lossless format due to bandwidth issue inside the cable, right?"

Lossless formats were able to be used over HDMI 1.0, just passed as LPCM.

Shawn

"But 4 years ago, HDMI up to HDMI 1.2, I think we were able to use other input options, but not lossless format due to bandwidth issue inside the cable, right?"

Lossless formats were able to be used over HDMI 1.0, just passed as LPCM.

Shawn

Exactly. Lossless format just start to coming to us in last 12 months. But LPCM has been here long but a company like Theta why bother to do just LPCM but not all the proper decoding.

I am getting bombarded with HDMI upgrade questions - Wow, I never realized how many of my customers are enjoying their CBIII's and now chomping at the bit to get HDMI..

Well guys , Thanks so much for all the great years of support.. I got a call today asking if I would be taking care of the upgrades for our loyals and of course, we are prioritizing the list already and as everyone knows I will get everyone upgraded timely and cost effectively as well.

I am in communication with Theta many times a week and as things progress I will announce it on the AVS and keep everyone in the loop as well.

As we all know, This card will set the Casablanca III once again in a class that is untouched by any. The fact that we have successfully upgraded this machine for so many years without a hitch is amazing enough but once the HDMI card hits, Man oh man, that separates the men from the boys!!!

Looking forward to keeping you guys updated !

Craig ( Theatermax )

well it''s about time you got yur butt on here to answer some questions:D

Exactly. Lossless format just start to coming to us in last 12 months. But LPCM has been here long but a company like Theta why bother to do just LPCM but not all the proper decoding.

Lossless over HDMI has been with us since HD DVD (2.5 years). It is old news. A processors ability to accept and post process digitally is the most basic of functions of any pre/pro over the last 2-3 years.

But more is coming and thats where I feel the other high end manufacturers are waiting before releasing their new fully re-designed reference processors. Lossless over HDMI simply isn't new and a basic feature of any receiver of years past.

"Lossless over HDMI has been with us since HD DVD (2.5 years)."

Further back then that, it was first available with DVD-A and HDMI.

Shawn

I wonder if the reason most others are hesitating on HDMI or HDMI 1.3 is because of the new features coming out for processors from DTS and Dolby......

..........HDMI audio has been around for 4 years. Theta is finally adding it. I wonder, if in typical Theta 'slow to embrace' form, that after you guys pay $4K for basic HDMI 1.3 audio, that Dolby's and DTS's new add ons (which will require new hardware) will be announced... and then you're behind technology again (or have to wait another 4 years to get it).

As I see it HDMI 1.3 offers nothing over HDMI 1.2 LPCM audio, so the heavies like Lexicon are waiting until they can add something really new like DD and DTS new features (as they already have HDMI audio). Who knows?

maybe...... but I think you have to plunge in somewhere. Don't you? At the rate this particular technology is accelerating, "cuting edge" is almost sure to be "blunt edge" soon after it hits the market if not before. Even if it doesn't and everything is as you say, it won't be anything new to us Theta folks. The other guys can have the quantity. We'll take the quality.

This may be true but you have to plunge in somewhere. At the rate this technology is accelerating, "cuting edge" technology is almost bound to be "blunt edge" soon after it hits the market

I agree... There is something always coming around the corner. LExicon has had HDMI for some time.. There is not enough new to replace the MC-12B HD. THeta needs an HDMI solution yesterday. You Theta guys have been very patient.

I agree... There is something always coming around the corner. LExicon has had HDMI for some time.. There is not enough new to replace the MC-12B HD. THeta needs an HDMI solution yesterday. You Theta guys have been very patient.

Sometimes waiting is worth it. Like your patience is living with your Sony Qualia!!!@@@

Sometimes waiting is worth it. Like your patience is living with your Sony Qualia!!!@@@

Yes, and I am ready to replace it... Saw some neat stuff!!!

Exactly. Lossless format just start to coming to us in last 12 months. But LPCM has been here long but a company like Theta why bother to do just LPCM but not all the proper decoding.

this table may help a little to prove your point.

HDMI version 1 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.3a
1.2a 1.3b
1.3b1
sRGB Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
YCbCr Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
8 channel LPCM/192 kHz/24-bit audio capability Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Blu-ray Disc video and audio at full resolution[F] Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Consumer Electronic Control (CEC)[G] Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
DVD-Audio support No Yes Yes Yes Yes
Super Audio CD (DSD) support[H] No No Yes Yes Yes
Deep Color No No No Yes Yes
xvYCC No No No Yes Yes
Auto lip-sync No No No Yes Yes
Dolby TrueHD bitstream capable No No No Yes Yes
DTS-HD Master Audio bitstream capable No No No Yes Yes
Updated list of CEC commands[I] No No No No Yes

I wonder if the reason most others are hesitating on HDMI or HDMI 1.3 is because of the new features coming out for processors from DTS and Dolby..

Dolby announced new capabilities that are coming to receivers that likely any new piece will not have (Dolby Volume control, Dolby Dynamics, etc).. DTS has speaker mapping coming which looks very slick and other nicities as well. I wonder if Lexicon / Meridian is waiting on these new features to mature and then bring out a new piece with ALL the new goodies. These features will require new hardware internally.

HDMI audio has been around for 4 years. Theta is finally adding it. I wonder, if in typical Theta 'slow to embrace' form, that after you guys pay $4K for basic HDMI 1.3 audio, that Dolby's and DTS's new add ons (which will require new hardware) will be announced... and then you're behind technology again (or have to wait another 4 years to get it).

As I see it HDMI 1.3 offers nothing over HDMI 1.2 LPCM audio, so the heavies like Lexicon are waiting until they can add something really new like DD and DTS new features (as they already have HDMI audio). Who knows?
Jeff, there are 3 internal slots in the CB III for decoder cards, hardware implementation, etc. The CB II used 2 of them. When we updated to the CB III the new decoder cards were not yet available. When they came on line we did all of them in the field, and one card replaced the existing two. That means there are two slots available for the sort of thing you mention. Once the HDMI update is done, I believe an internal card update can do these future items, and I think it will be possible for the dealer to do it in the field. I think ATI is proving their committment to the Theta product line, and I expect them to continue to do so. Regards, Norm

We too are collecting a priority list for updates here at Malibu Audio Vision. I drive past the factory every day between my home and office, and we hand carry all work into the factory personally and place the orders personally. PM me if you wish to be put on our list, and kept updated (no pun intended) on the progress to fruition of this great leap forward for Theta. Regards, Norm

this table may help a little to prove your point.

Thank you javry. All I am trying to say is
1) HDMI 1.3b is just starting to be mature, stable and other under developments.
2) BD lossless format just heat up last 12 months or less.
3) Before we can use other connections such as analog, 1, 2 or 3 SPDIFs to do just as good.

Yes, LPCM, lossless or whatever maybe here as long as 3 to 5 years. But for a small manufacture compare to those mass production manufacture such as Pioneer, Onkyo, they have to be careful and can't afford making any mistake to introduce anything that not sell or format obsolete before even begin production. The most I think and consider is behind about 1 year old; when most mass production 1.3b receiver launched mid to end of last year, right?

From experience these past years we can predict the likelihood that the CB 3 HDMI 1.3 audio bitstream processing and DAC conversion and analog ouptut will give those of us with hi resolution audio and ear/brain (not Doug Winsor_ better sonics than even the incredible Integra 9.8.

More assumptions steve? You still have not cleared up your last comments on how theta's better power will change the was a DSP operates.

The good news for Lex and Halcro owners is that with Theta pushing the HDMI 1.3 audio bar, that this will create market pressure for Lex and Halcro to move to HDMI 1.3 audio perhaps earlier than they would otherwise. But whether good upgrade pricing would be available for current Lex and Halcro HDMI LPCM processing only owners remains to be seen! Suddenly Theta Digital has leapfrogged to the top of the class!!!

Lex and halcro would not benefit from releaseing a HDMI 1.3 product so what would be the point? How is theta at the top of the class when they are years late and still do not offer any type of room correction?

So how does HDMI sound through the Theta?

Can't go to the head of the class on product announcements alone, you gotta have an actual product.

This was a good laugh, theta did not even have a powered product at the show and people are jumping up and down.

As we all know, This card will set the Casablanca III once again in a class that is untouched by any. The fact that we have successfully upgraded this machine for so many years without a hitch is amazing enough but once the HDMI card hits, Man oh man, that separates the men from the boys!!!

Untouched by any? You are 4 years late on HDMI.

Theta Digital is now a "full speed ahead" company. ATI, its new owner, has the financial assets and engineering contacts and know how to proceed

So before the ATI buy out you agree that theta did not have the ability to release a HDMI product?

Exactly. Lossless format just start to coming to us in last 12 months. But LPCM has been here long but a company like Theta why bother to do just LPCM but not all the proper decoding.

How does LPCM not offer all the proper decoding?

Jeff, there are 3 internal slots in the CB III for decoder cards, hardware implementation, etc. The CB II used 2 of them. When we updated to the CB III the new decoder cards were not yet available. When they came on line we did all of them in the field, and one card replaced the existing two. That means there are two slots available for the sort of thing you mention. Once the HDMI update is done, I believe an internal card update can do these future items, and I think it will be possible for the dealer to do it in the field. I think ATI is proving their committment to the Theta product line, and I expect them to continue to do so. Regards, Norm

Good to know that we still have some slots open to do other mods/upgrade. Thanks Theta!

We too are collecting a priority list for updates here at Malibu Audio Vision. I drive past the factory every day between my home and office, and we hand carry all work into the factory personally and place the orders personally. PM me if you wish to be put on our list, and kept updated (no pun intended) on the progress to fruition of this great leap forward for Theta. Regards, Norm

What a service!!! Thanks Norm.

How does LPCM not offer all the proper decoding?

Doug,

What I meant is some AVR out there just offer LPCM. But a company like Theta, they should not do that instead they should just introduce lossless format decoding along with LPCM together, just like what they're doing now.

What I meant is some AVR out there just offer LPCM. But a company like Theta, they should not do that instead they should just introduce lossless format decoding along with LPCM together, just like what they're doing now.

Receivers have offered both LPCM and bitstream over HDMI for some time now. LPCM is lossless and does not differ from lossless bitstream, that and the fact that blu ray specs require LPCM over bitstream. If you bitstream a lossless codec the menu sounds will not work will all/most blu ray disks.

Lets reword this since we are dealing with novices here, when sending a lossless codec such as dolby HD or DTS master there is no difference if you send it as bitstream or LPCM.

Receivers have offered both LPCM and bitstream over HDMI for some time now. LPCM is lossless and does not differ from lossless bitstream, that and the fact that blu ray specs require LPCM over bitstream. If you bitstream a lossless codec the menu sounds will not work will all/most blu ray disks.

What I was referring to is just LPCM AVR which available for a long time. But LPCM and bitstream over HDMI 1.3b just starts to pop up about a year ago. My point is Theta is not that behind and a small company like Theta not like the mass production manufactures such as Denon, I consider one year late is acceptable.

If you bitstream a lossless codec the menu sounds will not work will all/most blu ray disks.What a terrible loss. ;)

Lets reword this since we are dealing with novices here, when sending a lossless codec such as dolby HD or DTS master there is no difference if you send it as bitstream or LPCM.

This has been discussing numerous of time... isn't it?

What I was referring to is just LPCM AVR which available for a long time. But LPCM and bitstream over HDMI 1.3b just starts to pop up about a year ago. My point is Theta is not that behind and a small company like Theta not like the mass production manufactures such as Denon, I consider one year late is acceptable.

Since bitstreaming of dolby HD and dts master offers nothing new I see it as irrelevant.

This has been discussing numerous of time... isn't it?

It has but many people in this section of the forum do not understand the very basics so we have to start from the beginning.

Since bitstreaming of dolby HD and dts master offers nothing new I see it as irrelevant.

We all know, agree and from white paper that bitstreaming of dolby HD and dts master = LPCM sound quality. As far as I know, I don't know there is a way to send such signal to CBIII until this upgrade, using our extreme DACs. All I am trying to say and reply to post #277 is, I don't think Theta is 4 years late and at the most a year late to join other manufactures HDMI 1.3 wagon. If the statement was if "Theta should have HDMI and LPCM 4 years ago" then I won't say a word and can't agree more. That is my point. May I ask, what is your point?

Doug why does my Naim Audio CD player sound two times better when I added their external power supply....to my CDXII

Also why does it then sound better again when I put it on a mana table or a Naim rack....versus a standard audio rack.

I don't know what the physics or technical reasons why a digital system benefits so much from these changes or upgrades all I know is from my experience and to my ear they do.

I agree with the logical arguement it just 1's and 0's but then if this was always true then all kit would sound the same which clearly it does not.

Set science aside and listen...if you get more involved and it generates more emotive responses and enjoyment of the source material then isn't that a good thing?

Set science aside....You know what the S in AVS Forum stands for, right?

Sanjay

You know what the S in AVS Forum stands for, right?

Sanjay

Sanjay, I think there is room for both Science and Art in this hobby. Without both it doesn't inspire, which it always should. Regards, Norm

I think there is room for both Science and Art in this hobby.Didn't say there wasn't. Just pointing out that, of all the forums out there, Audio/Video Science may not be the best place to "put science aside".

Sanjay

Sanjay, I think there is room for both Science and Art in this hobby. Without both it doesn't inspire, which it always should. Regards, Norm

Science and engineering apply to areas where there can be known answers. Art applies to areas where there isn't or shouldn't be one. In the case of unpacking a soundtrack from BD, that's straightforward engineering --- no mystery at all. The music you like, how you like to set up your speakers, or which room treatment and style you like, that's art.

Sorry to be blunt, but the equivocation in this thread about how bitstreaming could sound better or be affected by power supplies, etc. is the result of ignorance of how these things work. It is not because the issue has many possibilities caused by mysterious reasons. If a bitstreamed soundtrack were corrupted or changed in some way, even having a single bit flipped, the result would be very obvious, like a big scratch on a CD kind of obvious.

The analogies with Naim CD players and their power supplies as well as Theta DACs and their power supplies don't apply here, because bitstream decoding is a strictly digital process. A CD player or DAC transforms digital to analog, and so can be subtly affected by things like power supply quality and noise. With a purely digital process, it either works or it doesn't. There isn't a middle ground.

A good and popular analogy for bitstream coding is the Zip compression program you use on your computer to compress files. If a single bit in a zip file is wrong, it's very obvious. It doesn't subtly make your document more confusing --- you just lose big chunks of data, and your document can no longer be opened by your word processor.

--Andre

Science and engineering apply to areas where there can be known answers. Art applies to areas where there isn't or shouldn't be one. In the case of unpacking a soundtrack from BD, that's straightforward engineering --- no mystery at all. The music you like, how you like to set up your speakers, or which room treatment and style you like, that's art.

Sorry to be blunt, but the equivocation in this thread about how bitstreaming could sound better or be affected by power supplies, etc. is the result of ignorance of how these things work. It is not because the issue has many possibilities caused by mysterious reasons. If a bitstreamed soundtrack were corrupted or changed in some way, even having a single bit flipped, the result would be very obvious, like a big scratch on a CD kind of obvious.

The analogies with Naim CD players and their power supplies as well as Theta DACs and their power supplies don't apply here, because bitstream decoding is a strictly digital process. A CD player or DAC transforms digital to analog, and so can be subtly affected by things like power supply quality and noise. With a purely digital process, it either works or it doesn't. There isn't a middle ground.

A good and popular analogy for bitstream coding is the Zip compression program you use on your computer to compress files. If a single bit in a zip file is wrong, it's very obvious. It doesn't subtly make your document more confusing --- you just lose big chunks of data, and your document can no longer be opened by your word processor.

--Andre

You make good sense and for now I would tend to agree, subject to once I get my CB3 HDM 1.3 audio upgrade, I will try the unpacking to LPCM both in the player and the surround processor, and if one sounds better than the other then I can use it. But yes unpacking ain't DA conversion and I am skeptical that will be a hearable/brainable difference. Nonetheless, I am a listener and I will try, anyway. HA!

CD players have digital too just inside the same box that is my point ok technically it is not bitstreaming but the power supply makes a difference all parts of the chain influence the performanc of both digital and anologue....theta owners will find this out I am certain

Andre,

"A good and popular analogy for bitstream coding is the Zip compression program you use on your computer to compress files. If a single bit in a zip file is wrong, it's very obvious. It doesn't subtly make your document more confusing --- you just lose big chunks of data, and your document can no longer be opened by your word processor."

And to take that a step further the end document is the same if I unzip it and e-mail it to you or I e-mail you the zipped file for you to unzip on your end.

Shawn

I wonder if the reason most others are hesitating on HDMI or HDMI 1.3 is because of the new features coming out for processors from DTS and Dolby..For pre-pros that have already been doing HDMI for years (Anthem, Halcro, Lexicon), it makes little sense to re-tool their hardware to HDMI 1.3 just for the sake of bitstream decoding. It's especially pointless to do it now, when that exact same capability (bitstream decoding) is showing up in $300-400 BD players.

Anthem, for example, is bundling other features (more HDMI inputs & outputs, new video processing chip, etc) with their HDMI 1.1 to 1.3 upgrade. Likewise, when Halcro decides to go HDMI 1.3 at some later date, there will be a bunch of new capabilities (audio & video) available at that time to make the upgrade more feature-packed than just bitstream decoding. With Lex, I think the wait has less to do with adding new features licensed from other companies (Dolby, DTS, THX) as much as finishing up the next version of their own proprietary technologies (not to mention the cross-country move to the Harman campus in Northridge, CA).

For pre-pros that are about to add HDMI (Meridian, Theta), it makes complete sense to start off with HDMI 1.3 from the get-go, since OEM vendors are probably not selling HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 parts any more. Ditto bitstream decoding. New chipsets from companies like Cirrus, which weren't available a couple of years ago, have finally come to market. There's no reason to wait to add that feature to a pre-pro, especially if the pre-pro is just now upgrading to HDMI.

Sanjay

For pre-pros that have already been doing HDMI for years (Anthem, Halcro, Lexicon), it makes little sense to re-tool their hardware to HDMI 1.3 just for the sake of bitstream decoding. It's especially pointless to do it now, when that exact same capability (bitstream decoding) is showing up in $300-400 BD players.

Anthem, for example, is bundling other features (more HDMI inputs & outputs, new video processing chip, etc) with their HDMI 1.1 to 1.3 upgrade. Likewise, when Halcro decides to go HDMI 1.3 at some later date, there will be a bunch of new capabilities (audio & video) available at that time to make the upgrade more feature-packed than just bitstream decoding. With Lex, I think the wait has less to do with adding new features licensed from other companies (Dolby, DTS, THX) as much as finishing up the next version of their own proprietary technologies (not to mention the cross-country move to the Harman campus in Northridge, CA).

For pre-pros that are about to add HDMI (Meridian, Theta), it makes complete sense to start off with HDMI 1.3 from the get-go, since OEM vendors are probably not selling HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 parts any more. Ditto bitstream decoding. New chipsets from companies like Cirrus, which weren't available a couple of years ago, have finally come to market. There's no reason to wait to add that feature to a pre-pro, especially if the pre-pro is just now upgrading to HDMI.

Sanjay


What you say makes good economic sense.

You make good sense and for now I would tend to agree, subject to once I get my CB3 HDM 1.3 audio upgrade, I will try the unpacking to LPCM both in the player and the surround processor, and if one sounds better than the other then I can use it. But yes unpacking ain't DA conversion and I am skeptical that will be a hearable/brainable difference. Nonetheless, I am a listener and I will try, anyway. HA!

It's good to keep an open mind. Be careful to match levels to 1 percent when you do the comparison. Since the BD player has to overlay menu and other user interface sounds on top of the soundtrack, it may reduce the level of the unpacked PCM to avoid overloading the DACs. Some people have reported that their HD-DVD players do this.

--Andre

CD players have digital too just inside the same box that is my point ok technically it is not bitstreaming but the power supply makes a difference all parts of the chain influence the performanc of both digital and anologue....theta owners will find this out I am certain

There are lots of areas where power supplies can make a difference. Bitstreaming and decoding is not one of them. There have been cases in the past of badly designed systems which were affected by decoding, but these are pretty pathological: the DTS decoder overheating DSP chips which could lead to eventual system failure, for example.

If you do want to make a credible case for bitstreaming, you would be better off looking at how the bass management functions of a player could (and has) affected decoded PCM.

--Andre

Just to clear the air with the Theta haters. Halcro has not been doing HDMI LPCM for years more like months. Anthem I am not sure about but I feel it is the same. Theta has said it was not happy with HDMI 1.2 as it reclocked the signal to video timing and for audio this impacted the sound badly. My guess is that 1.3b clocks audio at audio timing and video at video timing. Hence one other reason Theta waited and went with 1.3b.

Just because a pre-pro can do a thing does in no way assure one that it is done well. Theta users come to the party with state of the art sound for the type of decoding Theta offers at the time. As such they are feeling less left out due to this very good sound already achieved. Newer decoding and or methods are always at first flawed in their implementation due in part to the learning curve and introductory hardware limitations.

To realize true state of the art results, one must improve on the work that has gone before, hence you will never be the first one out. You will lay back a bit and watch what others do and look for ways to tweak it to make it better. This also costs less and delivers a better final product at a lower cost too. You also must wait for the installed base to be large enough to merit investing in supporting something as you need to turn a profit and not just say "we did it first, but now we are bankrupt".

I do have to say that Theta is right on course with their continuing support of the Casablanca and their customer base. Much to the chagrin of "The Bland " who was adamant that the CBIII was the end of the line and Theta could not expand it any further. Looks like his crystal ball is VERY cloudy indeed. Sure hope is wine choices are better than his electronic prognostications are. :)

For the record I too am an Theta dealer and I also hand carry upgrades to and from Theta and I will be happy to talk to you about why we are worth a look.

"Lossless over HDMI has been with us since HD DVD (2.5 years)."

Further back then that, it was first available with DVD-A and HDMI.

Shawn

But at that time it was limited to 5.1 24/96. Maybe Lexicon felt that they were just adding the ability to handle those formats hence the glaring 24/96 5.1 limitation. The arguement that there are not any 7.1 titles is a pretty weak one now. I mean damn even "Hairspray" had a 7.1 DTS-master audio track.

With a purely digital process, it either works or it doesn't. There isn't a middle ground.


I read about sparklies being created when an HDMI cable between the source and projector is a bit too long. If the cable is made even longer then the complete picture can be lost.

I thought that the source to pj via HDMI was a purely digital process. Why does a sparklie "middle ground" exist?

I read about sparklies being created when an HDMI cable between the source and projector is a bit too long. If the cable is made even longer then the complete picture can be lost.

I thought that the source to pj via HDMI was a purely digital process. Why does a sparklie "middle ground" exist?

The phenomenon of "sparklies" is not limited to just long runs of HDMI.
I only have very short runs and when they happened to me, what it told me was the cheapest cable I could find was no damn good.
Supposedly, theoretically even the extreme cheapo cable shouldn't have made any difference.

The arguement that there are not any 7.1 titles is a pretty weak one now.The counter argument is even weaker, considering:
- Only 4% of Blu-rays are 7.1 (56 titles out of 1281)
- Downmixing lossless 7.1 to 5.1 has been standardized on BD players
- Converting lossless 5.1 back to 7.1 can be done by most modern receivers and pre-pros (not your's)

Sanjay

But at that time it was limited to 5.1 24/96. Maybe Lexicon felt that they were just adding the ability to handle those formats hence the glaring 24/96 5.1 limitation. The arguement that there are not any 7.1 titles is a pretty weak one now. I mean damn even "Hairspray" had a 7.1 DTS-master audio track.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone had a recent conversation with Lexicon or Halcro to find out where they stand on this issue?

What you say makes good economic sense.

it sure does. I'm guessing we'll all be testing this out once the upgrade takes place. I'm sure the debate will be hot and heavy.

For the record I too am an Theta dealer and I also hand carry upgrades to and from Theta and I will be happy to talk to you about why we are worth a look.

Where the heck have you been lately??? HA!

We took a family vacation to - Disneyland a few weeks ago. But I was SO TIRED. HA! I wish I had time to come demo your setup. Of course if you're ever in Phoenix area come demo mine!!!

Yea we got Theta dealers Craig Shumer (VGI on forum), Norm (Tyree on forum) and Allen Fleener hangin' out on forum and giving both Theta info and just their own audio and home theater opinions in a helpful fashion. You bet plenty more Theta dealers read AVS. And lotta Theta users like me, Bulldogger, Ash Sharma, and plenty more hangin' out here. After Theta's sale to ATI last November, I think pretty much all of us Theta users/luvers
kept on prayin' that ATI would keep going "ENGAGE" on HDMI audio for the Theta CB3, and ATI kept this all close to their vest until a few months ago when Mike Pontelle of ATI told me (and I announced here on AVS) that Theta would have a display of Theta CB3 HDMI 1.3 audio processing at CEDIA 2008.
And as that famous Star Trek Captain also said "Make It So". Its nice to now be able to recommend the CB3 to folks to buy again as a high end and soon to be most current HDMI 1.3 audio surround processor, after some months of suggesting folks go inexpensively (and not recommending the CB3 as a new purchase for awhile) with the Integra 9.8, unti we hopefully received a firm committment from Theta on the HDMI 1.3 audio upgrade. Which we have.
When I get my CB3 upgrade, I'll be able to sell my Integra 9.8 (used for HDMI 1.3 audio only in conjunction with Theta Six Shooter) for not much less than I paid.

We all know, agree and from white paper that bitstreaming of dolby HD and dts master = LPCM sound quality. As far as I know, I don't know there is a way to send such signal to CBIII until this upgrade, using our extreme DACs. All I am trying to say and reply to post #277 is, I don't think Theta is 4 years late and at the most a year late to join other manufactures HDMI 1.3 wagon. If the statement was if "Theta should have HDMI and LPCM 4 years ago" then I won't say a word and can't agree more. That is my point. May I ask, what is your point?

If that is your opinion then think what you want.

Doug why does my Naim Audio CD player sound two times better when I added their external power supply....to my CDXII

2 times? Since you are using a digital connection it would be impossible that a difference was made. Either the "chips" have enough power to operate or they don't, all 0's and 1's.

Also why does it then sound better again when I put it on a mana table or a Naim rack....versus a standard audio rack.

It wouldn't and please provide some evidence on how the stand would make a difference, if it made a difference then it could be measured.

I don't know what the physics or technical reasons why a digital system benefits so much from these changes or upgrades all I know is from my experience and to my ear they do.

This is the same thing people say about high end cables.

I agree with the logical arguement it just 1's and 0's but then if this was always true then all kit would sound the same which clearly it does not.

It would if it was all digital, take sources for example, if you are using a CD player with a digital out and no type of processing then every CD player will sound the same.

Set science aside and listen...if you get more involved and it generates more emotive responses and enjoyment of the source material then isn't that a good thing?

Same thing is said about cables, so why is it then that only the "high end" can figure this out and why is it always price dependant?

Sorry to be blunt, but the equivocation in this thread about how bitstreaming could sound better or be affected by power supplies, etc. is the result of ignorance of how these things work. It is not because the issue has many possibilities caused by mysterious reasons. If a bitstreamed soundtrack were corrupted or changed in some way, even having a single bit flipped, the result would be very obvious, like a big scratch on a CD kind of obvious.

I agree, people are being ignorant in not doing some basic reading on why and how.

CD players have digital too just inside the same box that is my point ok technically it is not bitstreaming but the power supply makes a difference all parts of the chain influence the performanc of both digital and anologue....theta owners will find this out I am certain

You should understand what is and is not involved in a digital chain from the laser to the digital output and then you might realize that a power supply can not affect it.

Theta has said it was not happy with HDMI 1.2 as it reclocked the signal to video timing and for audio this impacted the sound badly.

What? Do I have to now explain how HDMI clocks and reclocks the signal to remove/prevent jitter?

Audio data being carried across the HDMI link, which is driven by a TMDS clock running at a rate corresponding to the video pixel rate, does not retain the original audio sample clock.

Sound like theta should not like HDMI at all then.

Newer decoding and or methods are always at first flawed in their implementation due in part to the learning curve and introductory hardware limitations.

Care to explain, the early HD dvd players did not have a problem with lossless audio.

The arguement that there are not any 7.1 titles is a pretty weak one now. I mean damn even "Hairspray" had a 7.1 DTS-master audio track.

"The counter argument is even weaker, considering:
- Only 4% of Blu-rays are 7.1 (56 titles out of 1281)
- Downmixing lossless 7.1 to 5.1 has been standardized on BD players
- Converting lossless 5.1 back to 7.1 can be done by most modern receivers and pre-pros (not your's) "

Kind of killed that argument.

I read about sparklies being created when an HDMI cable between the source and projector is a bit too long. If the cable is made even longer then the complete picture can be lost.

"sparklies" can you expand this at all? HDMI cables can be tested to exact specs and audioholics just did this. Plus powered HDMI solutions are not coming out for an up to 200 feet solution.

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/long-hdmi-cable-bench-tests/hdmi-cable-testing-results

Its nice to now be able to recommend the CB3 to folks to buy again as a high end and soon to be most current HDMI 1.3 audio surround processor,

Most current?

I thought that the source to pj via HDMI was a purely digital process. Why does a sparklie "middle ground" exist?

Read some the HDMI cable test to start.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone had a recent conversation with Lexicon or Halcro to find out where they stand on this issue?

I spoke with Greg this morning @ Lex. They are not prepared to say anything except to say they are always looking to make improvements. Hopefully the MC-12HD replacement will be 7.1. The ML502 is so it stands to reason (at least to me) that the new high end Lex will also be 7.1 (at a minimum) vs. 5.1.

P.S. It seems clear that at this point in time, focus is in PCM vs Bitstream as users would not receive button sounds and "extras" sounds with Bitstream. And I did speak to him about the HDMI concern. So I'm in the process of finding out what the specifics were, to settle the blame game over the HDMI issue.

I am going to ignore Mr Winsor as not someone I am interested in having any discourse with at AVS. Anyone else interested in doing so, too? I will just ignore him and never respond to him.

I am going to ignore Mr Winsor as not someone I am interested in having any discourse with at AVS. Anyone else interested in doing so, too? I will just ignore him and never respond to him.

It took you this long? lol

I am going to ignore Mr Winsor as not someone I am interested in having any discourse with at AVS. Anyone else interested in doing so, too? I will just ignore him and never respond to him.

Sorry, can't do it. I Just gotta say something.


"sparklies" can you expand this at all? HDMI cables can be tested to exact specs and audioholics just did this. Plus powered HDMI solutions are not coming out for an up to 200 feet solution.

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/long-hdmi-cable-bench-tests/hdmi-cable-testing-results

Read some the HDMI cable test to start.

Why don't you take some of your own advice and read something on this well known problem that is as old as HDMI itself.

It puzzles me that someone supposedly as edumacated as yourself, having read everything there is to read about HDMI and all things digital, could never have heard of this phenomenon before.

Why don't YOU start with Google and enter the 2 words in question?

HDMI Sparklies

Just because a 1 or a 0 goes into one side of a cable, is no guarantee that it'll come out the other side of a cable the same way, even though these cables may have been "tested to exact specs"!

I know, hard to believe huh?

It took you this long? lol

Patience is often a virtue - as in waiting patiently for Theta CB upgrades over the years.

But with Mr. Winsor patience is a vice!!! Have no patience. Ignore the guy.
Sleep better!!!!

Patience is often a virtue - as in waiting patiently for Theta CB upgrades over the years.

But with Mr. Winsor patience is a vice!!! Have no patience. Ignore the guy.
Sleep better!!!!

Thanks and sure will take your advice.

You know, for so many years it has always been the question why Theta , Why are they better.. Why Why Why ?

Its always been this way mostly for a few very simple reasons. The Machine has very over built D/A Convertors that are on Stand Alone Boards and it uses an amazing Resister Step ladder Array Volume Control with very nicely selected resisters and the overall architecture is grand and not all cramped onto 1 or 2 little PCb's and so on and so on.. So yes believe me I have the 9.8 Onkyo piece and the Marantz 8003 and the Lex Mc12 HD and lots more and still by far the CBIII sounds better than everything else.

I know this is going to start the same war we have always dealt with but I guess in reality if we just simply say that Theta is the Ferrari 599 GTB then it all should make sense.. Okay so the Ferrari 599 GTB has a V12 that makes 620 HP and it costs about 300K.. How do we call the CBIII the 599 ? Well think about it, The CBIII with 8 Channels of Xtreme lists for 15000 dollars. You can buy a Denon Receiver with HDMI everything for 1000 dollars so the CBIII is simply 15 times the money. You can buy a nice Honda Civic for around 20K or for 15 times more you can buy the 599 GTB.. Voila - Make sense ?

Okay so lets look back at the last , I dont know , lets say 7 years or so.. We took the CB1 to the 2 to the CB3 and added loads of features and they all work great and it sounds incredible as most of you will admit. Did any other company do this ? Nope , Not even close. Every other company said just throw away your chassis or maybe a few who will remain unnamed had an amazing trade in program which we all know who I am talking about and it sucked, it costs just as much to buy a new one.

Theta has never let anyone down and they are about to blow us away again.

I am sure knowing who is involved with the design of the board that it will rock and it will make the new formats sounds incredible and warm and the way they are supposed to sound.

Believe me I am just as excited as everyone else and yes I will get the first one! Just kidding , well maybe not :)

Let's be patient and by the way , Calling Theta is not going to help the board get out faster. The factory told me today tons of people are calling and telling them to rush the board out. This really does not help but its great to see the enthusiasm.

Craig

Let's be patient and by the way , Calling Theta is not going to help the board get out faster. The factory told me today tons of people are calling and telling them to rush the board out. This really does not help but its great to see the enthusiasm.

Craig

Yea, my pipeline to Theta Digital is thru my dealer, Craig!!! True, when Neil Sinclair was the owner, I had a pipeline direct to him, too. And yes as Theta was sold I got to know Mike Pontelle, of the new owner, ATI, some. And I've talked to Mike twice, once right after the sale, and a few months ago when I broke the news that Theta was doing the CB3 HDMI 1.3 audio upgrade. But other than that, I talk to my dealer, Craig, I don't bother the company working on geting the upgrade done. That's why Theta has dealers, folks. So bother your dealer with your questions, leave Theta Digital alone! Besides, if you have a top notch dealer, the dealer will get you the best answer available and get you in line for the upgrade.

Craig,

Well said and 100% agreed.

As a car guy too, 9.8 is probably better than a Civic. I consider is a best rental car until my 599 back in my garage :-)

I read about sparklies being created when an HDMI cable between the source and projector is a bit too long. If the cable is made even longer then the complete picture can be lost.

I thought that the source to pj via HDMI was a purely digital process. Why does a sparklie "middle ground" exist?

Sparklies are data loss, not subtle differences caused by power supplies. That's like a scratch on your CD --- it's very obvious.

--Andre

I know this is going to start the same war we have always dealt with but I guess in reality if we just simply say that Theta is the Ferrari 599 GTB then it all should make sense.. Okay so the Ferrari 599 GTB has a V12 that makes 620 HP and it costs about 300K.. How do we call the CBIII the 599 ? Well think about it, The CBIII with 8 Channels of Xtreme lists for 15000 dollars. You can buy a Denon Receiver with HDMI everything for 1000 dollars so the CBIII is simply 15 times the money. You can buy a nice Honda Civic for around 20K or for 15 times more you can buy the 599 GTB.. Voila - Make sense ?


No, that makes no sense. Your analogy doesn't work: a Ferrari 599 GTB has quantitative, consistently measurable higher performance than a Civic. A Theta has no consistently measurable performance advantages over its other competitors, and in many ways lags behind them.

--Andre

The Theta-bashers posting on this thread must have way too much time on their hands. :confused:

I think that the Honda Element is a seriously ugly vehicle, but I don't go posting message after message on some forum for Honda enthusiasts.

I'm new to this forum and as a long-time Casablanca owner, I'm grateful for all the info that I can get, especially since my local dealer has lost interest in Theta and is no longer in the loop. :(

I will surely get the new HDMI input board when it is available and I continue to be happy with my original purchase. Sometimes Theta is a little slow in getting things done, but the end product always sounds sweet. :D

Steve

The Theta-bashers posting on this thread must have way too much time on their hands. :confused:

I think that the Honda Element is a seriously ugly vehicle, but I don't go posting message after message on some forum for Honda enthusiasts.

I'm new to this forum and as a long-time Casablanca owner, I'm grateful for all the info that I can get, especially since my local dealer has lost interest in Theta and is no longer in the loop. :(

I will surely get the new HDMI input board when it is available and I continue to be happy with my original purchase. Sometimes Theta is a little slow in getting things done, but the end product always sounds sweet. :D

Steve

Steve,

Graig is a cool guy and he sure is NOT a Theta-bashers. He is just using a casual example/analogy to compare the different between most HDMI AVR to CBIII HDMI unit. Btw, Craig is one of the biggest Theta dealer in the US, I heard, and you should PM him for some special pricing...

P.S. It seems clear that at this point in time, focus is in PCM vs Bitstream as users would not receive button sounds and "extras" sounds with Bitstream. And I did speak to him about the HDMI concern. So I'm in the process of finding out what the specifics were, to settle the blame game over the HDMI issue.

You can look up all the specifics online.

I am going to ignore Mr Winsor as not someone I am interested in having any discourse with at AVS. Anyone else interested in doing so, too? I will just ignore him and never respond to him.

You are a lawyer and are use to asking and getting asked questions so why when I ask a question does it bother you?

Why don't you take some of your own advice and read something on this well known problem that is as old as HDMI itself.

It puzzles me that someone supposedly as edumacated as yourself, having read everything there is to read about HDMI and all things digital, could never have heard of this phenomenon before.

Why don't YOU start with Google and enter the 2 words in question?

It is funny that you have no idea of what the simple and non technical term even applies to. Why don't you look it up and apply something that is more accurate.

Just because a 1 or a 0 goes into one side of a cable, is no guarantee that it'll come out the other side of a cable the same way, even though these cables may have been "tested to exact specs"!

I know, hard to believe huh?

This answer is beyond ignorant.

The Machine has very over built D/A Convertors that are on Stand Alone Boards and it uses an amazing Resister Step ladder Array Volume Control with very nicely selected resisters and the overall architecture is grand and not all cramped onto 1 or 2 little PCb's and so on and so on..

So why are the specs not better if it is built this much better? Last time I looked they used the BB 1704 DAC which is old and not up to the specs of new DAC's, that and it does not offer DSD support which is why theta left that out of the HDMI upgrade.

I am sure knowing who is involved with the design of the board that it will rock and it will make the new formats sounds incredible and warm and the way they are supposed to sound.

I did not know that the new lossless audio had an encripted sound that theta could only bring out.

Sparklies are data loss, not subtle differences caused by power supplies. That's like a scratch on your CD --- it's very obvious.

But bigbrother52 likes to use the term "Sparklies".

No, that makes no sense. Your analogy doesn't work: a Ferrari 599 GTB has quantitative, consistently measurable higher performance than a Civic. A Theta has no consistently measurable performance advantages over its other competitors, and in many ways lags behind them.

AndreYew, you just keep on busting these posts up. Good job.

The Theta-bashers posting on this thread must have way too much time on their hands.

Why do you think I am a theta basher? I am asking questions and posting what is correct information about theta when the users in this thread post otherwise.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/features/show-reports/more-from-cedia.html

Some theta show pictures.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/theta-casaii.jpg
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/theta-casaii-back.jpg

Is the card on top the new HDMI card? On second look it is and I hope they are not charging $3500 for that.

The counter argument is even weaker, considering:
- Only 4% of Blu-rays are 7.1 (56 titles out of 1281)
- Downmixing lossless 7.1 to 5.1 has been standardized on BD players
- Converting lossless 5.1 back to 7.1 can be done by most modern receivers and pre-pros (not your's)

Sanjay

Then your arguement is that all processors need be only 5.1 discrete channels? I don't think that will fly around here. It's total BS.

Digital bit stream signal is ultimately Analog when it is being transmitted serial fashion and that is why power supply makes a difference....cd players or transports sound the same is not my experience ...also why does changing the digital cable make a transport sound different?

Then your arguement is that all processors need be only 5.1 discrete channels? I don't think that will fly around here. It's total BS.

All he is doing is posting data on what is and what is not 5.1 or 7.1.

Digital bit stream signal is ultimately Analog when it is being transmitted serial fashion and that is why power supply makes a difference....cd players or transports sound the same is not my experience ...also why does changing the digital cable make a transport sound different?

What? Are you saying that using the same digital output but using different cables will give you a different sound?

The Theta-bashers posting on this thread must have way too much time on their hands. :confused:I

Oh make no mistake they know what they are doing. They are a bitter bunch. "Haters." http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hater If you dig a little deeper, it become clear what is going on. They want this thread closed!:D.

Oh make no mistake they know what they are doing. They are a bitter bunch. "Haters."

Would you classify me as a theta "hater"?

They want this thread closed!

I want it open so I can find out the ins and outs of theta.

Congrats Theta luvers. We are doing a great job on ignoring a certain unnameable person. Keep it up!!

Congrats Theta luvers. We are doing a great job on ignoring a certain unnameable person. Keep it up!!

Why do you think it is necessary to copy and paste your response in both threads?

Congrats Theta luvers. We are doing a great job on ignoring a certain unnameable person. Keep it up!!

As I said - - -

Then your arguement is that all processors need be only 5.1 discrete channels?Nope, just posting facts that show why 7.1 input is not the critical feature you're trying to make it into, especially at a time when only 4% of all BD titles are 7.1.

Sanjay

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/features/show-reports/more-from-cedia.html

Some theta show pictures.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/theta-casaii.jpg
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/theta-casaii-back.jpg

Is the card on top the new HDMI card? On second look it is and I hope they are not charging $3500 for that.You think you're so smart. If you had followed my posts from the show you would know that Theta is making available a 4 X SPDIF AES/EBU Digital output card for the Gen VIII in place of the internal DACs in the CB III. You're looking at it. Norm

Theta is making available a 4 X SPDIF AES/EBU Digital output card for the Gen VIII in place of the internal DACs in the CB III. You're looking at it. Norm

That is a very plain, yet so very elegant looking card, like all of Thetas' cards.
Not the plain part, just the elegant part.

As I've mentioned in the past, I've always resisted the temptation of opening both of my Casablanca's. With no good cause to have opened one.

I'd forgotten that there was still one more new card to be seen.
Some cards, like my Digi-out card, I don't even have a picture of.
This is the closest I've come to seeing one, although this one must look quite different.

For a moment I was afraid it was the Premium DAC, as I've never seen a picture of that card either and all we can make out here are the 4 AES/EBU connectors. So it looked, shall we say "puny" compared to the pics of my Extreme DACS. Which look fiercely elegant and far from plain.
I'm sure the Premium DAC must look much closer to them. I don't know how I could have thought them to be "puny".

"If you had followed my posts from the show you would know that Theta is making available a 4 X SPDIF AES/EBU Digital output card for the Gen VIII in place of the internal DACs in the CB III. "

The problem with that though is it is very unlikely that Theta will be allowed to use that unencrypted with an HDMI input per the terms of the HDMI/HDCP licenses.

Shawn

[/B]You think you're so smart. If you had followed my posts from the show you would know that Theta is making available a 4 X SPDIF AES/EBU Digital output card for the Gen VIII in place of the internal DACs in the CB III. You're looking at it. Norm

Norm, please do not feed the monster. Theta luvers are working on getting on the same page of ignoring Doug Winsor and letting him flap in the wind without responding to anything he says.

"If you had followed my posts from the show you would know that Theta is making available a 4 X SPDIF AES/EBU Digital output card for the Gen VIII in place of the internal DACs in the CB III. "

The problem with that though is it is very unlikely that Theta will be allowed to use that unencrypted with an HDMI input per the terms of the HDMI/HDCP licenses.

Shawn

Shawn, how difficult, expensive and problematic is it these days with modern PCs to do that encryption? Does the encryption have to be approved by the HDMI consortium? Are they even willing to approve any encryption?

"Does the encryption have to be approved by the HDMI consortium?"

I would assume it would have to be otherwise they would say you were in violation of the license agreement that Theta would have had to sign to be allowed to use HDMI/HDCP at all.

"Are they even willing to approve any encryption?"

That is sort of the big question right now.

Meridian has had their MHR encryption for S/PDIF for years. They have used it between their players (for DVD-A) and their processors and between their processors and their DSP speakers.

However, from what I have been told they are having a hard time getting HDMI/HDCP to accept MHR.

Shawn

Nope, just posting facts that show why 7.1 input is not the critical feature you're trying to make it into, especially at a time when only 4% of all BD titles are 7.1.

Sanjay

I remember that years back before Theta had Dolby EX processing and DTS 24/96, many Lexicon owners took aim at the company for that. Having the same sort of thing defended now in reverse, using market percentage to defend obsolence, is I must admit enjoyable:). Some companies, Theta, Proceed, and Cal Audio, position was that 5.1 was what was in the vast majority of homes, something like 97% at the time according to the data that one company gave me. Hence there was not a need for support for beyond 5.1 and Dolby Ex. In fact, to this day the percentage of Dolby EX titles is not high but it's standard now on pre-pros and AV recievers. We are on the fringe of technology here. I suspect that the guys on this forum may have home audio system vastly superio tor 99% or even greater of what the general population owns. 7.1 discrete is welcomed here and embraced even by many who do not currently have such set-ups. 4% you say? A year ago is was well less than that. I submit that the trend is for MORE titles and you will see that percentage increase. If you have a larger room, you can get buy with 6.1 discrete but 5.1 is inferior to 6.1 or 7.1. discrete in such a room. Once I heard 7.1 discrete, I LOVED it.

Norm, please do not feed the monster. Theta luvers are working on getting on the same page of ignoring Doug Winsor and letting him flap in the wind without responding to anything he says.

I suspect that this guy is very young. Perhaps even a teenager living at home with his parents. It's happened before. That's why I don't entertain him. I remember having a dispute on ebay with an Aragon amplier that I sold. When the auction ended the buyer would not pay and sent heated e-mails to me as to why NO amp was worth what his winning bid was because you could not tell the difference in a DBT. It was irrelevant since he had place the winning bid. In the end, the KID, e-mailed me that he was only 15 years old and was unable to pay even if he wanted to pay. Doug Winsor reminds me of that kid.

I remember that years back before Theta had Dolby EX processing and DTS 24/96, many Lexicon owners took aim at the company for that. Having the same sort of thing defended now in reverse, using market percentage to defend obsolence, is I must admit enjoyable:). Some companies, Theta, Proceed, and Cal Audio, position was that 5.1 was what was in the vast majority of homes, something like 97% at the time according to the data that one company gave me. Hence there was not a need for support for beyond 5.1 and Dolby Ex. In fact, to this day the percentage of Dolby EX titles is not high but it's standard now on pre-pros and AV recievers. We are on the fringe of technology here. I suspect that the guys on this forum may have home audio system vastly superio tor 99% or even greater of what the general population owns. 7.1 discrete is welcomed here and embraced even by many who do not currently have such set-ups. 4% you say? A year ago is was well less than that. I submit that the trend is for MORE titles and you will see that percentage increase. If you have a larger room, you can get buy with 6.1 discrete but 5.1 is inferior to 6.1 or 7.1. discrete in such a room. Once I heard 7.1 discrete, I LOVED it.

Thanks for your share Bulldogger. I have a big room and I have been using my 9.8 7.1 about a year now. I am thinking to upgrade my rear Superior II DAC to Premium DAC in order to do 7.1 in my CBIII. Since I am sending back to factory for HDMI upgrade, I am definitely thinking to do that now.

Anyone want a Superior II DAC, please PM me. Maybe we can send both to a dealer when we send it in for this upgrade and they can swap it for us ;)

"I remember that years back before Theta had Dolby EX processing and DTS 24/96, many Lexicon owners took aim at the company for that."

I doubt it for DTS 24/96, most Lexicon owners have considered that a joke from the get go. Dolby EX of course works on any sound track to extract a back channel. Ditto DPLIIx.

"Having the same sort of thing defended now in reverse, using market percentage to defend obsolence, is I must admit enjoyable"

What is even more enjoyable is the guy that has 0.0 channels of 96/24 into his processor trying to put down 6 channels of 96/24 in.

BTW, I'm not saying support for 7.1 over HDMI wouldn't be nice in the Lex. Just not the end of the world since there isn't much material in that format and because the Lexicon can do unique things with a 5.1 soundtrack that no other processor can do.

Shawn

I remember that years back before Theta had Dolby EX processing and DTS 24/96, many Lexicon owners took aim at the company for that.Nope. Years back in a discussion about timely upgrades, it was pointed out that Theta took 6 years to deliver EX decoding. Had less to do with the lack of the feature than the time taken to engineer its implementation. In that context, the next Lex will have discrete 7.1 input, delivered within months of Theta having the same feature, not half a decade later. Some companies, Theta, Proceed, and Cal Audio, position was that 5.1 was what was in the vast majority of homes, something like 97% at the time according to the data that one company gave me. Hence there was not a need for support for beyond 5.1 and Dolby Ex. In fact, to this day the percentage of Dolby EX titles is not high but it's standard now on pre-pros and AV recievers.What those companies told you still holds true: very few people use more than 5.1 speakers, EX soundtracks are a tiny percentage (roughly 18 titles per year) of total movies released annually, and even now there is "not a need" to go beyond 5.1.

It is important that you're separating features that are 'needed' (e.g., DD decoding) versus features that are not (e.g., EX decoding), since that was my point about 7.1 input vs 5.1 input. Nice feature to have and one I will welcome, but not the end-all/be-all you make it out to be.

BTW, as you already know EX is standard on pre-pros and receivers because it comes built into decoding chips, just as 7.1 input is built into newer chips. So it's not a matter of if, just a matter of when all manufacturers will have 7.1 input as standard. Once I heard 7.1 discrete, I LOVED it.I feel the same, but for 7.1 in general. Keep in mind that Lex started selling 7-ch pre-pros 6 years before there was any discrete 5.1 material available and a full 11 years before Dolby introduced EX in order to go beyond 5.1 speakers. While I can understand your excitment about 7.1-channel soundtracks, it's not as big a deal for me since I've been listening to movies in 7.1 for over 15 years.

Sanjay

I have my Casablanca III in a system with 8.1 capacity, including side speakers and a center surround. I have obviously no way of accessing 7.1 discrete sources and 6.1 discrete sources are not that common.

Part of the reason that I added speakers was in anticipation of new source material. Another factor was the shape of my room. The optimal placement of the surround speakers in a 5.1 setup would place one in front of an exterior door and another in the entryway to the room.

In any event I am very pleased with Theta's proprietary steering software that derives the additional channels with 5.1 material. :cool: I am often blown away with the sound of over-the-air television shows that are in DD. I am sure that my system will sound even better when I get the upgrade and play BR program material with discrete 7.1.

A lot of movie titles don't have much surround channel involvement (e.g., dramas with a lot of talking) and so it likely doesn't matter much how they are mixed. The occasional blockbuster action film must sound amazing in the new higher definition sound formats when properly accessed.

Steve

I've been thinking of getting a used Casablanca for quite a while now, but the HDMI situation has held me off.
But now, with the upcoming HDMI-upgrade, it seems the time is right..:)

But I understand it takes a CB III to get the upgrade, CB I and CB II needs to be upgraded to latest specs first..right..?

So, what would it cost to upgrade an old, used CB I or CB II to a CB III HDMI-machine..? Extreme dac's for the front-channels, Premium for the other channels..??

Thanks,
CH

"But now, with the upcoming HDMI-upgrade, it seems the time is right.."

Wait till it is delivered. The HDMI upgrade has been 'upcoming' since 2006.

Shawn

I've been thinking of getting a used Casablanca for quite a while now, but the HDMI situation has held me off.
But now, with the upcoming HDMI-upgrade, it seems the time is right..:)

But I understand it takes a CB III to get the upgrade, CB I and CB II needs to be upgraded to latest specs first..right..?

Thanks,
CH

Wait till it is delivered. The HDMI upgrade has be 'upcoming' since 2006.

Shawn

Not bad advice really but I'm more confident of it happening today then I was a very short time ago.

And yes, a CBI or CBII must be upgraded to a CBIII before HDMI can be added. I figure it's still well worthwhile going that direction.

At any rate, I'll have a CBI for sale myself, as soon as that upgrade to my CBIII is done. PM me if you're interested in waiting that long to get one.

"Not bad advice really but I'm more confident of it happening today then I was a very short time ago."

So am I. But still things can change so if HDMI is a must have feature I'd hold off till it is delivered. Buying something based on what it might do instead of what it does is a good way to get burned.

Shawn

"Not bad advice really but I'm more confident of it happening today then I was a very short time ago."

So am I. But still things can change so if HDMI is a must have feature I'd hold off till it is delivered. Buying something based on what it might do instead of what it does is a good way to get burned.

Shawn

Hence my offer to sell him a used blanca "after" HDMI becomes available.
No chance for him to get burned that way, is there? ;)

Hence my offer to sell him a used blanca "after" HDMI becomes available.
No chance for him to get burned that way, is there? ;)

Yup. Btw, I have a used CBII for sale now but you need either one of the Xtreme, Superior II or Premium DACs for the HDMI upgrade...

I am often blown away with the sound of over-the-air television shows that are in DD.

Steve,

How is your 8.1 benefit the DD from OTA material?

Steve,

How is your 8.1 benefit the DD from OTA material?

HUH?

I have a 5.1 system. Four Aerial 9s. One Aerial CC5. Three Aerial SW12 subwoofers, with the first one chained to the 2nd which is chained to the third.

So I haven't played with 7.1 or 8.1. Ask Bulldogger about that.

Steve,

How is your 8.1 benefit the DD from OTA material?

Hard to precisely pinpoint. I have not done AB testing with and without. However, since adding the side speakers I do find some ambient sounds which seem to be localized at one side or another from time to time. I know that all that is involved is some kind of pro-logic style steering, but it seems to be well done.

It may also be the case that sound engineers are paying more attention to the possibilities inherent in the DD format now that HDTV's are becoming more prevalent.

HUH?

I have a 5.1 system. Four Aerial 9s. One Aerial CC5. Three Aerial SW12 subwoofers, with the first one chained to the 2nd which is chained to the third.

So I haven't played with 7.1 or 8.1. Ask Bulldogger about that.

Thanks. I was asking mcaff and his name is Steve too.

I have obviously no way of accessing 7.1 discrete sources and 6.1 discrete sources are not that common.Doesn't matter. Your pre-pro does a good job of scaling the number of channels in the source to the number of speakers in your set-up. This will remain useful even after you get access to discrete 7.1 sources, since the majority of what you listen to will still be 5.1 material. I am very pleased with Theta's proprietary steering software that derives the additional channels with 5.1 material.Actually, it's not proprietary to Theta, but licensed from companies like SRS Labs (Circle Surround II), DTS (ES & Neo:6), and Dolby Labs (EX & PLII/PLIIx).

Sanjay

Thanks for your share Bulldogger. I have a big room and I have been using my 9.8 7.1 about a year now. I am thinking to upgrade my rear Superior II DAC to Premium DAC in order to do 7.1 in my CBIII. Since I am sending back to factory for HDMI upgrade, I am definitely thinking to do that now.

Anyone want a Superior II DAC, please PM me. Maybe we can send both to a dealer when we send it in for this upgrade and they can swap it for us ;)
We need a 5.1 to 7.1 Match Group. They would be very compatable. 5.1 boys pay for a premium DAC for the 7.1 boys and get a Superior II in return. Just a thought. Regards, Norm

Doesn't matter. Your pre-pro does a good job of scaling the number of channels in the source to the number of speakers in your set-up. This will remain useful even after you get access to discrete 7.1 sources, since the majority of what you listen to will still be 5.1 material. Actually, it's not proprietary to Theta, but licensed from companies like SRS Labs (Circle Surround II), DTS (ES & Neo:6), and Dolby Labs (EX & PLII/PLIIx).

Sanjay

Theta modified their decoding after it received its approval. They were not happy with the performance of the vanilla spec. Little known fact.

Theta modified their decoding after it received its approval. They were not happy with the performance of the vanilla spec. Little known fact.

Not an all that little known of a fact, I'm almost certain that you've mentioned it before. :)
And while some my not believe it to be true, I do! Pretty sure I remember something negitive being said about it your last time around with it.

Little know facts get thrown around here all the time and people choose to believe them or not.
For instance back in May of 07 I had 2 bits of info, some people chose not to believe, or perhaps they were just wishing for more or something different but as it turns out, what I was told turned out to be so.
Not that it was any big deal or anything.

I said back then,
"Theta will NOT start building video scalers into their video cards. Their leaving that to the companies that already make video their business.
As per John B."
And nope, we're not getting a scaler.

But my all time favorite diss with a bit of info known to now be true was....

According to my source at Theta, should I say old source (he left awhile ago),
he told me that they'd never do a CBIV as that number in Asian countries is like 13 in the US and considered to be unlucky!
bigbro

To which a reply was

Oh my, that must make life tough. I guess they would also not buy computers with a quad core processor or drive autos with 4 wheels. :D

OK, so he added the smiley :D
I just find it's difficult to tell people stuff that may not be common knowledge, especially having no way to back up an interesting tidbit such as yours.

I just find it's difficult to tell people stuff that may not be common knowledge, especially having no way to back up an interesting tidbit such as yours.

Just ask Neil. I'm sure he'll spill the beans now that he sold the company. That is if you can get him to a phone in Hawaii.

The change in decoding was told to me when I bought my first Theta piece-Casanova (when it had the green/yellow display).

Just ask Neil. I'm sure he'll spill the beans now that he sold the company. That is if you can get him to a phone in Hawaii.

The change in decoding was told to me when I bought my first Theta piece-Casanova (when it had the green/yellow display).

Like I said, I believe ya, so no reason to call Neil.
Probably one of the reasons Theta's stuff sounds different from most others.

Besides, I had to remove him from my speed dial to make room for the new presidential candidates.

Theta modified their decoding after it received its approval. They were not happy with the performance of the vanilla spec. Little known fact.Modified whose decoding: Dolby, DTS, SRS?

Sanjay

[QUOTE=sfogg;14649227BTW, I'm not saying support for 7.1 over HDMI wouldn't be nice in the Lex. Just not the end of the world since there isn't much material in that format and because the Lexicon can do unique things with a 5.1 soundtrack that no other processor can do.

Shawn[/QUOTE]

Yes, like take a soundtrack of "The Eagles," and make it sound like "The Chipmunks." Never been impressed with the sound quality of the Lexicon.

Thanks for your share Bulldogger. I have a big room and I have been using my 9.8 7.1 about a year now. I am thinking to upgrade my rear Superior II DAC to Premium DAC in order to do 7.1 in my CBIII. Since I am sending back to factory for HDMI upgrade, I am definitely thinking to do that now.

Anyone want a Superior II DAC, please PM me. Maybe we can send both to a dealer when we send it in for this upgrade and they can swap it for us ;)

If not you should be able to sell the Superior II card. I have two Superior II cards and intend to ultimately go with all Extreme but am still toying with the idea of a Gen VII dac and keeping the two Superior II cards. However, I don't see how Theta's going to be allowed to use the Gen VIII dac with the new formats. I asked that question when HDMI was first bounced around. I asked several times but have never gotten an answer.

Yes, like take a soundtrack of "The Eagles," and make it sound like "The Chipmunks." Never been impressed with the sound quality of the Lexicon.LOL! Couldn't support any of your claims with facts so back to your typical ad hominem attacks.

Sanjay

I am interested in the new modules for the Theta Dreadnaught. I"m running 5 amps right now, three Mcintosh MC501 monoblocks and two stereo amps, MC252's. Toying with the idea of going with a Dreadnaught for the surround channels but not so sure that would blend with the Mcintosh stufff as well as my current sst-up. Any updates on that?

LOL! Couldn't support any of your claims with facts so back to your typical ad hominem attacks.

Sanjay

No, the Lexicon does have inferior sound quality IMO. So it really boils down to that and none of the technical specs matter when faced with the sound quality.. I would give up the hobby if the best it was capable of is what the Lex can do. Also, I know that you in typical femine fashion will continue to sidetrack the tread. As usual, you want this thread closed.

Yes, like take a soundtrack of "The Eagles," and make it sound like "The Chipmunks." Never been impressed with the sound quality of the Lexicon.

That's not fair. The MC-12HD BAL does a good job. I would never think chipmunks. It would be nice to have 7.1 LPCM. And while there aren't "a lot" of discrete 7.1 blu-rays, I would like to believe it will only go up. As more and more people ask for it, I'm hoping we'll get it. I'd rather have discrete over an algorithm. With that being said, I'd take the algorithm over nothing at all.

No, the Lexicon does have inferior sound quality IMO. So it really boils down to that and none of the technical specs matter when faced with the sound quality.. I would give up the hobby if the best it was capable of is what the Lex can do. Also, I know that you in typical femine fashion will continue to sidetrack the tread. As usual, you want this thread closed.

The lexicon is superior "to me" when you want multi-channel music from a stereo recording ala Logic7. And for the time being, 5.1 LPCM from blu-rays vs. Theta's SPDIF. Once Theta releases their HDMI solution, then only the L7 would be of benefit.

For 2 channel vs. 2 channel, and DD+/DTS vs. DD+/DTS I prefer the Theta CB3 w/Xtreme DACs over the Lex. I have access to both. And the CB3 is the one I chose to have in my listening room.

P.S. Once Theta has their HDMI solution, then the CB3 will be offered first to clients along with the ML502. Lexicon MC-12HD comes in 3rd, then Arcam 4th.

Bulldogger,

I have the latest version of the Gen 8 and intend to integrate it via the digi card into my CB3. Currently I'm using 1 extreme card and two superior 2 cards. I will loose one of my superior 2 cards when I have the digi card installed. Craig @ Theater Max informed me there would not be a problem with this configuration even after the HMDI upgrade.

I will then just sell the superior 2 card and probably my six shooter.

No, the Lexicon does have inferior sound quality IMO.That's fine, since you're admitting that it's only your subjective opinion (rather than anything objectively measureable). So it really boils down to that and none of the technical specs matter when faced with the sound quality.That's fine too, although you were the only one here acting asthough a single technical (7.1 input) is all that mattered.

Sanjay

That's fine, since you're admitting that it's only your subjective opinion (rather than anything objectively measureable). That's fine too, although you were the only one here acting asthough a single technical (7.1 input) is all that mattered.
Let me guess, you have the Lexicon.

Let me guess, you have the Lexicon.Yes (though no need to guess, you can always check my posting history).

Sanjay

You think you're so smart. If you had followed my posts from the show you would know that Theta is making available a 4 X SPDIF AES/EBU Digital output card for the Gen VIII in place of the internal DACs in the CB III. You're looking at it. Norm

Are you 100% sure? Do you have a picture of the connectors? Look at the spacing with the HDMI inputs on the CB3.

The problem with that though is it is very unlikely that Theta will be allowed to use that unencrypted with an HDMI input per the terms of the HDMI/HDCP licenses.

I agree.

4% you say? A year ago is was well less than that. I submit that the trend is for MORE titles and you will see that percentage increase.

Not really since even the big new releases are still 5.1.

but 5.1 is inferior to 6.1 or 7.1.

Another opinion?

I suspect that this guy is very young. Perhaps even a teenager living at home with his parents. Doug Winsor reminds me of that kid.

More assumptions from the theta user gallery.

Wait till it is delivered. The HDMI upgrade has been 'upcoming' since 2006.

That and with a non powered demo at cedia who knows how long it will be "coming".

So am I. But still things can change so if HDMI is a must have feature I'd hold off till it is delivered. Buying something based on what it might do instead of what it does is a good way to get burned.

I agree again.

Actually, it's not proprietary to Theta, but licensed from companies like SRS Labs (Circle Surround II), DTS (ES & Neo:6), and Dolby Labs (EX & PLII/PLIIx).

Wait for it.

Theta modified their decoding after it received its approval. They were not happy with the performance of the vanilla spec. Little known fact.

Can you back this up? If you some how modify something like PLIIx it would then no longer be PLIIx and unless you modified it enough you would then be in violation of PLIIx copyrights. Do you have anything to back up your statement about theta "modifying" any of these sound feilds?

LOL! Couldn't support any of your claims with facts so back to your typical ad hominem attacks.

This seems to be common with theta owners.

No, the Lexicon does have inferior sound quality IMO. So it really boils down to that and none of the technical specs matter when faced with the sound quality.. I would give up the hobby if the best it was capable of is what the Lex can do. Also, I know that you in typical femine fashion will continue to sidetrack the tread. As usual, you want this thread closed.

You can not back anything up and now go out on the limb that specs do not matter. You want this thread closed because it looks negative on theta.

I have the latest version of the Gen 8 and intend to integrate it via the digi card into my CB3. Currently I'm using 1 extreme card and two superior 2 cards. I will loose one of my superior 2 cards when I have the digi card installed. Craig @ Theater Max informed me there would not be a problem with this configuration even after the HMDI upgrade.

"The problem with that though is it is very unlikely that Theta will be allowed to use that unencrypted with an HDMI input per the terms of the HDMI/HDCP licenses."

Does this not fall under the same category?

I like how people are calling other theta "haters" when the obvious comes out from theta owners about anyother company. The only "haters" I see in this thread are hating anything but theta.

Yes, like take a soundtrack of "The Eagles," and make it sound like "The Chipmunks." Never been impressed with the sound quality of the Lexicon.

I would give up the hobby if the best it was capable of is what the Lex can do.


the Lexicon MC-12 is first rate from what I've heard. Is there something better? I don't really know. I like Theta too.

I mean really, the Lexicon is already at such a high level for movies, I don't know if you are going to hear much difference.


Nothing wrong with Lexicon in my book. If you read my post, you will find that I think the Lexicon MC12 is an excellent sounding processor.

.

Why is this thread turning into Lexicon vs. Theta? Theta has always had a history of being better than Lexicon with a few caveats. Then again; peoples preferences are always different. Each has its place and purpose.

If someone asks for Lex, I sell them a Lex. If they want Tokyo by Night - Denon, I sell that. If they ask which is better? The customer can decide by listening and choosing what they like. It's a win-win. I make some money and the customer is happy by picking the product they like.

Bringing up Lex and Theta in the same sentence does not elevate Lex to the same level as Theta. So if you love your Lexicon, then turn off the computer and enjoy your Lex. It's still a high end piece. If this was a Lex thread I'd say the same to us Theta users. I'm caught in the middle as I have both. But as an owner I am on the Theta side.

Good job ignoring Doug Winsor.

This is a Theta thread, but since its mostly about HDMI and the new audio formats, that means its also about blu-ray. Any thoughts about favorite BR players / transports?

Steve

"Any thoughts about favorite BR players / transports?"

Panasonic BD50 looks like a very nice unit. If you don't need analog outputs the PS3 is of course very good as well.

Shawn

I have a Panasonic BD30K because it bitstreams the new high resolution audio formats for decoding in my "stopgap" Integra 9.8 (mult-channel analog output to my Theta Sx Shooter). Of course, once the Theta CB3 HDMI 1.3 audio upgrade is available and done my Integra will be sold.

Regarding Blu-ray players... I'd like to hold out for the Arcam player.

My only fear is that the copy protection updates aka AACS & BD+ will not be released fast enough by the oem's to allow us to play new discs when you buy them.

sfogg that was some good quoting.

Good job ignoring Doug Winsor.

I think it is more that the users can not reply to the questions asked, much like yourself. In court can one just refuse to answer a question?

"This is the unofficial AVS reminder to Theta luvers to ignore Doug Winsor."

http://www.thetadigital.com/faqhdmi.htm

If you want a good laugh read through theta's "opinion" of HDMI.

"this is the unofficial avs reminder to theta luvers to ignore doug winsor."



We're just trying to protect you guys. If you get into it with DougWinsor, you may end up tied to a tree:

http://universdartistes.blogspot.com/2007/12/doug-winsor.html


More:

http://universdartistes.blogspot.com/2007/10/doug-winsor-rdw-studio.html

Actually, Doug Winsor is very talented in an "exposed" way!!!

"This is the unofficial AVS reminder to Theta luvers to ignore Doug Winsor."

You're not taking your own advice Steve.

to that I agree. Time to take your own advise or eat your words Steve:p

This is a Theta thread, but since its mostly about HDMI and the new audio formats, that means its also about blu-ray. Any thoughts about favorite BR players / transports?

Steve

The only thing I would say at this point is that transports for me would be out of the question.

Judging by the following, we're going to start out with less than half the full capacity of HDMI 1.3b since Theta is not going for a video option. Not a bad thing since most of the literature touts 1.3 as the link of the future. I wonder if Theta is at least planning on taking advantage of the Lip synch option? If not, we'll be down to the last item below....leaving plenty of room for growth. On the other hand, it's probably a smart move given the way this industry changes so quickly. I think I read somewhere that 1.3b is set up to handle 1440p. I'm sure it is if they say so but I'm guessing the industry will be vastly evolved by that time and 1.3b will be a thing of the past...giving way to some super new and improved version. Since the audio codecs are centered pretty much around Dolby THD and DTS MA, I wonder how long it will be before these codecs also become obsolete and whether 1.3x will handle what is to follow. Thoughts?

Q. What’s new in the HDMI 1.3 Specification?


Higher speed: Although all previous versions of HDMI have had more than enough bandwidth to support all current HDTV formats, including full, uncompressed 1080p signals, HDMI 1.3 increases its single-link bandwidth to 340 MHz (10.2 Gbps) to support the demands of future HD display devices, such as higher resolutions, Deep Color and high frame rates. In addition, built into the HDMI 1.3 specification is the technical foundation that will let future versions of HDMI reach significantly higher speeds.

Deep Color: HDMI 1.3 supports 10-bit, 12-bit and 16-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths, up from the 8-bit depths in previous versions of the HDMI specification, for stunning rendering of over one billion colors in unprecedented detail.

Broader color space: HDMI 1.3 adds support for “x.v.Color™” (which is the consumer name describing the IEC 61966-2-4 xvYCC color standard), which removes current color space limitations and enables the display of any color viewable by the human eye.

New mini connector: With small portable devices such as HD camcorders and still cameras demanding seamless connectivity to HDTVs, HDMI 1.3 offers a new, smaller form factor connector option.

Lip Sync: Because consumer electronics devices are using increasingly complex digital signal processing to enhance the clarity and detail of the content, synchronization of video and audio in user devices has become a greater challenge and could potentially require complex end-user adjustments. HDMI 1.3 incorporates automatic audio synching capabilities that allows devices to perform this synchronization automatically with total accuracy.

New HD lossless audio formats: In addition to HDMI’s current ability to support high-bandwidth uncompressed digital audio and all currently-available compressed formats (such as Dolby® Digital and DTS®), HDMI 1.3 adds additional support for new lossless compressed digital audio formats Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio™
.

to that I agree. Time to take your own advise or eat your words Steve:p

I am eating as we type!!!@@@:D

The only thing I would say at this point is that transports for me would be out of the question.

I'm not very familiar with many of the, shall we just call them BD delivery systems to cover all the bases.
Since there was nothing for me to gain but a better picture, until Theta does their thing.
I know that picture alone means the world to a whole lot of people here
but I was able to satisfy my curiosity about that part enough with HD-DVD.

At this time, I'm not even certain that a stand alone BD transport even exists.

So my question to you would be, whether they actually exist or not...
Why are BD transports out of the question for you?

I am eating as we type!!!@@@:D

I'll bet it tastes alot like kosher baloney :rolleyes:

For Dolby Digital, which I consistenlty have maintained that I never liked, the there is not much difference for MOVIES with any high-end surround processor. You can use just about any high-end processor including the Lexicon . For movies and DD, you'll be fine with a Lexicon if DD is your standard which isn't saying much for Lexicon or DD. Most of my past discussions have been about audio quality in reference to CD. DD is about 1/6 of CD quality. Of all the processors in the 10K and above, Lexicon is the ABSOLUTE WORST sounding. I can't put it much more straight forward than that. I have tried Lexicon. At the current level of sound track quality, it's inferior and I would not keep one though I have purchased them for in-home trials. I have tried all of the Lexicon models and found all them inferior for movies and MUSIC and vastly inferior for the latter. What has happened NOW is that the level of sound quality for movies can now SURPASS CD. Now the Lexicon is not worth owning EVEN just for movies as DD is now not the only game in town for movie soundtracks.Lexicon MC-12HD,It's a patch job. A "bolt-on job" for 5.1 LPCM upgrade that was not worth the effort or the price. Remember it was I who broke the news about the MC12 being replaced. I think, it's very clear from that time what I though of the MC12:D.

Bulldogger,

I have the latest version of the Gen 8 and intend to integrate it via the digi card into my CB3. Currently I'm using 1 extreme card and two superior 2 cards. I will loose one of my superior 2 cards when I have the digi card installed. Craig @ Theater Max informed me there would not be a problem with this configuration even after the HMDI upgrade.

I will then just sell the superior 2 card and probably my six shooter.

That's what I would do.

. Actually, it's not proprietary to Theta, but licensed from companies like SRS Labs (Circle Surround II), DTS (ES & Neo:6), and Dolby Labs (EX & PLII/PLIIx).

Sanjay

Not true. While Theta has a Circle Surround, it also has proprietary processing which allows it to run 12 channels with two sides, two rears, a rear center, LCR and four subs. You have several options to derive the various post prosessing channels. The ones you mention are indeed part of the list but so too is Theta's proprietary processing. It's not mentioned much but Theta does indeed have a proprietary processing capability.

While Theta has a Circle Surround, it also has proprietary processing which allows it to run 12 channels with two sides, two rears, a rear center, LCR and four subs.The four subs outputs are derived using bass managment, not a proprietary version of Circle Surround or other surround processing. Likewise the L/R Side channel output is an "exact replica" (Theta's words, not mine) of the L/R Surround channel output, the equivalent of an electronic Y-splitter in the signal path, not the result of any proprietary surround processing. Is applying bass management and copying channel info your idea of "proprietary processing"?

Sanjay

I'm not very familiar with many of the, shall we just call them BD delivery systems to cover all the bases.
Since there was nothing for me to gain but a better picture, until Theta does their thing.
I know that picture alone means the world to a whole lot of people here
but I was able to satisfy my curiosity about that part enough with HD-DVD.

At this time, I'm not even certain that a stand alone BD transport even exists.

So my question to you would be, whether they actually exist or not...
Why are BD transports out of the question for you?
Bulldogger, the DVD-2500BTCI: Blu-ray Disc™ DVD/CD Digital Player/Transport is just such a Transport. It has HDMI only, bitstream output only, no decoded LPCM. As such the Halcro, Lexicon, and any other HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 pre/pros or receiver cannot use it. That is why it is out of the question for some, but would work fine with the upcoming 1.3b CB III mod, as well as our current solution the Integra DTC-9.8. Regards, Norm

"If you had followed my posts from the show you would know that Theta is making available a 4 X SPDIF AES/EBU Digital output card for the Gen VIII in place of the internal DACs in the CB III. "

The problem with that though is it is very unlikely that Theta will be allowed to use that unencrypted with an HDMI input per the terms of the HDMI/HDCP licenses.


I have the latest version of the Gen 8 and intend to integrate it via the digi card into my CB3. Currently I'm using 1 extreme card and two superior 2 cards. I will loose one of my superior 2 cards when I have the digi card installed. Craig @ Theater Max informed me there would not be a problem with this configuration even after the HMDI upgrade.


I am very confused if a processor is allowed to output unencrypted digital sound with an HDMI audio source. Does it depend on what the resolution of input and/or output HDMI digital audio is?

I note that the upcoming Tact TCS3 has a full complement of digital outs on AES or S/PDIF which I believe are supposed to work with HDMI in. But of course the Tact hasn't been released yet either.

Theta modified their decoding after it received its approval. They were not happy with the performance of the vanilla spec. Little known fact.

Are you saying they modified one of the DD PLII formats?

"At this time, I'm not even certain that a stand alone BD transport even exists."

There is the Denon DVD-2500BTCI. If I could have waited until my Casablanca was HDMI capable, I probably would have opted for this unit. It outputs bitstream through HDMI but has no other digital or analog audio outs.

Unfortunately my Theta David died and could not be fixed and I figured I might as well opt for a blu-ray player. I went with a Pioneer Elite. I also upgraded my JVC G11 to RS-2 and got a DVDO iScan VP50PRO at the same time. This being the case, my budget may not accommodate the Casablanca update for a little while. :(

In the meantime I am in video (if not audio) nirvana.

Steve

There is the Denon DVD-2500BTCI. If I could have waited until my Casablanca was HDMI capable, I probably would have opted for this unit. It outputs bitstream through HDMI but has no other digital or analog audio outs.

and got a DVDO iScan VP50PRO. This being the case, my budget may not accommodate the Casablanca update for a little while. :(

In the meantime I am in video (if not audio) nirvana.

Steve

I was thinking that ideas for blu-ray machines would be more along the lines of what might have been seen or read about from the recent show.
Since what was shown then, will become avail just after or right around the time that we get the opportunity to upgrade our CBIII's.

That being said...This is now the second mention of that year old, although currently avail. machine.
So speaking of our budgets
I have the DVDO VP50, not the pro, to make use of this Denon machine for DVD too, since I now read it's processing is pretty poor in that dept, and HDMI is it's one and only output. I'd need an upgrade there as well.

Otherwise, I think I'm looking at HDMI splitters all over the place or a new VP or both.
Budgets have and will continue to take massive hits in order to stay on top of all the new changes caused by this connectivity issue.
This new path to Nirvana seems to have been built using HDMI and it or some manufacturer is not letting everything follow that path.

I'm not very familiar with many of the, shall we just call them BD delivery systems to cover all the bases.
Since there was nothing for me to gain but a better picture, until Theta does their thing.
I know that picture alone means the world to a whole lot of people here
but I was able to satisfy my curiosity about that part enough with HD-DVD.

At this time, I'm not even certain that a stand alone BD transport even exists.

So my question to you would be, whether they actually exist or not...
Why are BD transports out of the question for you?

Well, I knew transports were new and very limited. I was only suggesting that with the CBIII upgrade, I would want to play around with the system for awhile first and determine if there is a difference between bitstreaming and upstream LPCM using the player. If it turns out that there is a marked improvement in SQ using the codec in the CBIII upgrade then a transport may be possible....assuming they are stiill available and technical reports are favorable. But for me, that would be a "down the road" decision. BTW, that was a great question.

The four subs outputs are derived using bass managment, not a proprietary version of Circle Surround or other surround processing. Likewise the L/R Side channel output is an "exact replica" (Theta's words, not mine) of the L/R Surround channel output, the equivalent of an electronic Y-splitter in the signal path, not the result of any proprietary surround processing. Is applying bass management and copying channel info your idea of "proprietary processing"?

Sanjay

Why don't you read the owners manual in more detail? I know that the sub channels are just copies. I know about the sides can be just copies. HOWEVER, Theta has a proprietary processing mode for deriving the REAR CENTER. That's also a shefl EQ for reducing the "highs' of some sound tracks which is not a part of any companies post processing. Check page 80 of the owners manual. There are a couple of ways of deriving a rear center even if the soundtrack is DTS, you can use DTS processing, DD EX, or Theta's proprietary processing.

Bulldogger, the DVD-2500BTCI: Blu-ray Disc™ DVD/CD Digital Player/Transport is just such a Transport. It has HDMI only, bitstream output only, no decoded LPCM. As such the Halcro, Lexicon, and any other HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 pre/pros or receiver cannot use it. That is why it is out of the question for some, but would work fine with the upcoming 1.3b CB III mod, as well as our current solution the Integra DTC-9.8. Regards, Norm

Thanks Norm but I think you were answering Bigbrother52's question. This helps me too though so thanks. No need to have to pay for processing twice. What about RS232 control on that model? I know the DVD-3800 model has that but not sure about the transport only, DVD-2500.

Ok, Norm, the Denon DVD2500 looks like the perfect transport for me.I took a look at the owner's manual and it does have RS232. That save me a 1000.00 because I don't have to get the 3800.

Ok, Norm, the Denon DVD2500 looks like the perfect transport for me.I took a look at the owner's manual and it does have RS232. That save me a 1000.00 because I don't have to get the 3800.
Bulldogger, just be aware that the 3800 has a Realta chip. If you have a Video Processor it shouldn't matter, but if you need to use the BD player for SD DVD with no processor the 3800 will be much better. Regards, Norm

At this time, I'm not even certain that a stand alone BD transport even exists.

Stand alone?

For Dolby Digital, which I consistenlty have maintained that I never liked, the there is not much difference for MOVIES with any high-end surround processor. You can use just about any high-end processor including the Lexicon . For movies and DD, you'll be fine with a Lexicon if DD is your standard which isn't saying much for Lexicon or DD. Most of my past discussions have been about audio quality in reference to CD. DD is about 1/6 of CD quality. Of all the processors in the 10K and above, Lexicon is the ABSOLUTE WORST sounding. I can't put it much more straight forward than that. I have tried Lexicon. At the current level of sound track quality, it's inferior and I would not keep one though I have purchased them for in-home trials. I have tried all of the Lexicon models and found all them inferior for movies and MUSIC and vastly inferior for the latter. What has happened NOW is that the level of sound quality for movies can now SURPASS CD. Now the Lexicon is not worth owning EVEN just for movies as DD is now not the only game in town for movie soundtracks.Lexicon MC-12HD,It's a patch job. A "bolt-on job" for 5.1 LPCM upgrade that was not worth the effort or the price. Remember it was I who broke the news about the MC12 being replaced. I think, it's very clear from that time what I though of the MC12.

So you go from praising lexicon to bashing it over and over again?

Not true. While Theta has a Circle Surround, it also has proprietary processing which allows it to run 12 channels with two sides, two rears, a rear center, LCR and four subs. You have several options to derive the various post prosessing channels. The ones you mention are indeed part of the list but so too is Theta's proprietary processing. It's not mentioned much but Theta does indeed have a proprietary processing capability.

Wait for it.

The four subs outputs are derived using bass managment, not a proprietary version of Circle Surround or other surround processing. Likewise the L/R Side channel output is an "exact replica" (Theta's words, not mine) of the L/R Surround channel output, the equivalent of an electronic Y-splitter in the signal path, not the result of any proprietary surround processing. Is applying bass management and copying channel info your idea of "proprietary processing"?

There you go, it seems like theta or its owners are all based on what they think their equipment can do instead of what it can do.

Bulldogger, the DVD-2500BTCI: Blu-ray Disc™ DVD/CD Digital Player/Transport is just such a Transport. It has HDMI only, bitstream output only, no decoded LPCM. As such the Halcro, Lexicon, and any other HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 pre/pros or receiver cannot use it. That is why it is out of the question for some, but would work fine with the upcoming 1.3b CB III mod, as well as our current solution the Integra DTC-9.8. Regards, Norm

Still trying to pitch the whole bitstream and LPCM.

Ignore who?

Bulldogger, I am looking at the PDF and notice center spread but that is about it. The other thing I notice is that the best signal to noise ratio that theta can muster is 105 db. And it can be confusing when they say 12 channel were it should be listed as 8.1.

Why don't you read the owners manual in more detail? I know that the sub channels are just copies.Why don't you read the owners manual, then maybe you'd understand that the sub channels are not just copies. When using multiple subs, they can be configured to get independent front/back or left/right signals. The centre can even have its own separate sub output. (I can't believe I'm having to explain/defend the uniqueness of Theta's bass management scheme to a CBIII owner.) In any case, bass management is just that: bass management. It isn't a modification of any of the off-the-shelf decoding and processing that Theta licenses from Dolby, DTS or SRS. HOWEVER, Theta has a proprietary processing mode for deriving the REAR CENTER.A circuit that extracts correlated mono info in the L/R surround channels. Outlaw, Rotel, Yamaha, even the outboard Circle Surround box had the same feature years ago. Hardly proprietary, since that's how EX/ES decoding works. That's also a shefl EQ for reducing the "highs' of some sound tracks which is not a part of any companies post processing.An EQ for "reducing the 'highs' of some soundtracks"? I'm guessing you're unaware that THX's Re-EQ feature has been doing the same thing since 1991. At this point, even the cheapest non-THX receivers have some sort of Cinema EQ feature for reducing highs in bright soundtracks. There are a couple of ways of deriving a rear center even if the soundtrack is DTS, you can use DTS processing, DD EX, or Theta's proprietary processing.OK, I'll bite: what are the differences in those three mono extraction circuits? That is, how is Theta extracting a mono surround-back channel that is better (or even different) from what Dolby and DTS were already doing?

Sanjay

Why don't you read the owners manual, then maybe you'd understand that the sub channels are not . OK, I'll bite: what are the differences in those three mono extraction circuits? That is, how is Theta extracting a mono surround-back channel that is better (or even different) from what Dolby and DTS were already doing?

Sanjay

I never said any mode was better only that it exist. You incorrectly stated that it does not which is ignorance on your part. My sub channels are copies. I am very familiar with all of the functions of the CBIII as nearly all owners are. I think that just about anyone who has read the owner's manual of the CB, knows that Theta has proprietary processing. Read the manual,PAGE 80 and stop propagating false information.

I never said any mode was better only that it exist.So you can't even answer a simple question about what makes their rear channel extraction different (if at all) from EX or ES, let alone the claims being made about Theta modifying licensed technology from Dolby, DTS and SRS. After all your talk about "proprietary processing", it comes down to an internal Y-splitter and a mono summing circuit. My sub channels are copies.Not according to the manual you keep referring me to.

Sanjay

Bulldogger, I am looking at the PDF and notice center spread but that is about it. The other thing I notice is that the best signal to noise ratio that theta can muster is 105 db. And it can be confusing when they say 12 channel were it should be listed as 8.1.

OK, youngster, this seems like a valid question so I'll answer. Signal to noise is not the only factor. In fact, much higher signal to noise ratios can be obtained with negative feedback. There is a debate about whether negative feed back, global that is, is a good or bad thing. For example, my amps have a signal to noise of 124db, Mcintosh MC501s blocks. Does that mean they sound better than amplifiers with less signal to noise. No, I don't think so. There are a couple of amps, that I actually prefer to Mcintosh and think they sound better. However, Mcintosh has a "total package," that I find the most compelling. Resale is high, company stability, reliablity, and great sound qualiy too, etc. Designers, like Charles Hansen of Ayre are adamant that the use of "op-amps" which he says "sound no better than a 2.00 pot", are a major reason that surround processors sound so poor, remember my response to your PM. I don't think you will find any negative reviews of Ayre products so I'd say he knows a little something about the subject. Volume control for so many channels can be expensive and op-amps are cheap. Only processor that I know for sure that does not use op-amps is the Theta Casablanca. The Casablanca is a 12 channel processor though not all channels are being used discretely,now. It is possible that they could be used so. The CBIII is modular and designed for future expansion. 10.2, twelve channels may never happen but it has been demonstrated and discussed. I use two Six Shooters which correlate with each of the channels of the CBIII. That gives me 12 channels of volume control and pre-amp functions over analog signals.

So you can't even answer a simple question about what makes their rear channel extraction different (if at all) from EX or ES, let alone the claims being made about Theta modifying licensed technology from Dolby, DTS and SRS. After all your talk about "proprietary processing", it comes down to an internal Y-splitter and a mono summing circuit. Not according to the manual you keep referring me to.

Sanjay
I don't care what makes them different. I never said they were different. Only that it exist. You said that it did not and were misinformed or ignorant or both.

I never said they were different.If they aren't different, what makes them "proprietary"? A label in the menu? You said that it did not and were misinformed or ignorant or both.What I said was that there was no "proprietary steering software". There's no steering involved with a Y-splitter and mono summing circuit. By that desperate logic, you could call the A/B speaker selector on receivers "steering software".

Sanjay

and this thread was going so well......

Sanjay,

Why does the owner of Lexicon equipment feel so compelled to denegrate Theta's products, or even participate in a thread about Theta products. Why don't you just enjoy your Lexicon equipment and leave Theta owners in peace.

Sanjay,

Why does the owner of Lexicon equipment feel so compelled to denegrate Theta's products, or even participate in a thread about Theta products. Why don't you just enjoy your Lexicon equipment and leave Theta owners in peace.

Simple. Folks here want the truth about products. Not rhetoric. It's crystal clear that the highest accolades of any component always come from their owners. In this case, Sanjay had the facts on his side and Bulldogger isn't able to rebut them with anything but insults.

Simple. Folks here want the truth about products. Not rhetoric. It's crystal clear that the highest accolades of any component always come from their owners. In this case, Sanjay had the facts on his side and Bulldogger isn't able to rebut them with anything but insults.

Jeff knows what he's talkin' about. He qualfies as an "expert" from the days when he luved his Lexicon!!!

I liked the Lex so much I dumped it! But I dump equipment all the time. Heck I have 3 Blu ray players from 3 different manufacturers in my rack and soon to be 4.

Quote from Bulldoger:
There are a couple of ways of deriving a rear center even if the soundtrack is DTS, you can use DTS processing, DD EX, or Theta's proprietary processing.

Quote from Sanjay:
OK, I'll bite: what are the differences in those three mono extraction circuits? That is, how is Theta extracting a mono surround-back channel that is better (or even different) from what Dolby and DTS were already doing?

Quote from thebland:
Simple. Folks here want the truth about products. Not rhetoric. It's crystal clear that the highest accolades of any component always come from their owners. In this case, Sanjay had the facts on his side and Bulldogger isn't able to rebut them with anything but insults.

How is it different? Well, it proprietary so the exact details are probably unavailable. Unless you are a cynic and think that Theta is just lying, I suspect that it is similar to, or even derivative of, but not an exact copy of DTS and/or DD. That it may be similar to or derivative of does not exclude it from being proprietary. Whether it is better than DTS and/or DD is a matter for subjective evaluation. Only way to tell is to listen to it and to DTS and DD and see if you hear a difference, and then form a judgment as to which you prefer. Same goes for Theta's proprietary Center Spread mode. If you don't like them, don't use them. It doesn't mean they are not proprietary.

I liked the Lex so much I dumped it! But I dump equipment all the time. Heck I have 3 Blu ray players from 3 different manufacturers in my rack and soon to be 4.
Jeff, what BD players do you have, and what is going to be your 4th?
I have 2 HD-DVD players, an Onkyo 805 and a Tosh A-35, to protect my extensive collection of HD-DVD's. I purchased most of them at $9.95. so like you I am somewhat format neutral still. I only have one BD unit however. Regards, Norm

Why does the owner of Lexicon equipment feel so compelled to denegrate Theta's products, or even participate in a thread about Theta products.My participation in this thread started after JimHTPC claimed there were "HDMI issues"(plural) with the Lex. When pressed, he could only point to one (which had not only been resolved but couldn't even be pegged as originating from the Lex). He then alluded to Lex having issues with "other HDMI devices/switchers"(again, plural). When I asked which ones, he couldn't name a single device or swither. Not one.

So let me aks you: why do Theta owners feel so compelled to repeat unsupportable claims about Lexicon in a thread about Theta products? Is it really that impossible to stick to discussing Theta products in a thread about Theta products?

Sanjay

So let me aks you: why do Theta owners feel so compelled to repeat unsupportable claims about Lexicon in a thread about Theta products? Is it really that impossible to stick to discussing Theta products in a thread about Theta products?
Sanjay
Because like you they are fundamentally insecure and have a pathological need to prove (to themselves) that their processors are the best by belittling the competition. My comments were directed to your vitriolic responses to Bulldoger concerning Theta's proprietary surround sound modes.

Ok having read through all the banter here and tried to sift through the flames, can I ask for some help with the question I perhaps located incorrectly here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1066786

(Either answer here or there.)

I've probably committed heresy as far as some of you are concerned in even thinking about such a trade but I'd value your views nonetheless.

(PS: given I need to upgrade my DACs if I do go for the Theta upgrade so I could well be in the market for some used perfect condition Superior II's. How sensible is it to but stuff like this secondhand?)

Because like you they are fundamentally insecure and have a pathological need to prove (to themselves) that their processors are the best by belittling the competition.Follow up question: why do some Theta owners feel so compelled to resort to personal comments about other posters? Is it really that difficult to stick to discussing Theta products in a thread about Theta products?

BTW, I made no mention of my processor (or any processor) being "the best". I simply asked questions that ended up clarifying claims about Lexicon's "HDMI issues" and the 'glaring limitation' of 5.1-ch inputs. My comments were directed to your vitriolic responses to Bulldoger concerning Theta's proprietary surround sound modes.Asking what makes Theta's "proprietary steering software" proprietary is vitriol? Compared to what? Bulldogger's sad little rants? You (or he) could have simply answered my question about what makes Theta's surround-back extraction different from off-the-shelf versions licensed from Dolby and DTS. Is that really so difficult? By comparison, it's easy to describe the differences between other surround-back extraction circuits (PLIIx, EX, ES, L7, THX).

Sanjay

Follow up question: why do some Theta owners feel so compelled to resort to personal comments about other posters? Is it really that difficult to stick to discussing Theta products in a thread about Theta products? As you know, this attitude is endemic to all the equipment-based threads, as is the idea of thread "ownership." Ask a reasonable question that some take as critical of their object of veneration and you may unleash such responses. I try to take a Joe Friday attitude: "Just the facts, ma'am."

As you know, this attitude is endemic to all the equipment-based threads, as is the idea of thread "ownership." Ask a reasonable question that some take as critical of their object of veneration and you may unleash such responses. I try to take a Joe Friday attitude: "Just the facts, ma'am."
Well said, Kal. I came to this thread seeking information and rational discussion about the Theta Casablanca III and upcoming HDMI 1.3 upgrade and found mostly bickering and one-upsmanship. Trying to weed through all that to find facts is a frustrating experience.

I think that just about anyone who has read the owner's manual of the CB, knows that Theta has proprietary processing. Read the manual,PAGE 80 and stop propagating false information.

I am looking at page 80 now and all I see are macros, copy macros, and restore macros.

OK, youngster, this seems like a valid question so I'll answer. Signal to noise is not the only factor. In fact, much higher signal to noise ratios can be obtained with negative feedback. There is a debate about whether negative feed back, global that is, is a good or bad thing. For example, my amps have a signal to noise of 124db, Mcintosh MC501s blocks. Does that mean they sound better than amplifiers with less signal to noise. No, I don't think so.

Why jump to amp measurements? People keep saying that theta is the best and every time I look further into it I am not seeing the best.

I don't think you will find any negative reviews of Ayre products so I'd say he knows a little something about the subject.

I don't think I have seen a negative review in most high end magazines.

Volume control for so many channels can be expensive and op-amps are cheap. Only processor that I know for sure that does not use op-amps is the Theta Casablanca.

So because theta uses a switched resistor network for volume control that makes it better? In fact it is no were near as accurate for keeping the same volume for each speaker.

sdurani

Looks like sdurani has done enough so I do not need to add anything.

Center Channel Spread -- A Theta exclusive, this important mode corrects for theater sound mixes, that route anywhere from 70% to a shocking 90% of the sound to the center channel – usually the weakest speaker in a surround-sound array. This is corrected by directing a portion of the Center Channel signal to the Front Left and Right Speakers, usually the best ones in the system. Center spread is variable, so you can use it as subtlely as you wish.

Right from the theta website, I like how they point out the obvious about why there is a center channel and by the looks of it theta wants a mono sound outputed over all speakers.

Simple. Folks here want the truth about products. Not rhetoric. It's crystal clear that the highest accolades of any component always come from their owners. In this case, Sanjay had the facts on his side and Bulldogger isn't able to rebut them with anything but insults.

Indeed, any question asked about a theta product is met with nothing but insults to the person asking the question.

So let me aks you: why do Theta owners feel so compelled to repeat unsupportable claims about Lexicon in a thread about Theta products? Is it really that impossible to stick to discussing Theta products in a thread about Theta products?

The comments from theta owners paint a good picture of the product.

Asking what makes Theta's "proprietary steering software" proprietary is vitriol? Compared to what? Bulldogger's sad little rants? You (or he) could have simply answered my question about what makes Theta's surround-back extraction different from off-the-shelf versions licensed from Dolby and DTS. Is that really so difficult?

Just pay and listen, don't ask any questions.

Well said, Kal. I came to this thread seeking information and rational discussion about the Theta Casablanca III and upcoming HDMI 1.3 upgrade and found mostly bickering and one-upsmanship. Trying to weed through all that to find facts is a frustrating experience.

That is what it started out as but the theta owners turned this thread into its current state. Plus they did not like it when I pointed out that their DAC's do not have DSD support.

"So because theta uses a switched resistor network for volume control that makes it better? In fact it is no were near as accurate for keeping the same volume for each speaker."

That all depends upon how well matched the resistors are. After all those volume controls on a chip are nothing more then a switched resistor array too.

Shawn

That all depends upon how well matched the resistors are. After all those volume controls on a chip are nothing more then a switched resistor array too.

I would just stick with something like the cirrus CS3318, so how is the theta different or do we have and specs on the volume control?

As you know, this attitude is endemic to all the equipment-based threads, as is the idea of thread "ownership." Ask a reasonable question that some take as critical of their object of veneration and you may unleash such responses. I try to take a Joe Friday attitude: "Just the facts, ma'am."


Kal, as an "unbiased reviewer, what do you deem to be the "facts" re Theta's proprietary stuff?

What matters most to us Theta luvers is how it sounds. Objective info is nice but how it sounds still matters the most. Note I am not putting down any other brand in saying this.

Re the CB3:

Theta's center spread is proprietary.

Theta's Extreme DAC software is proprietary - whether one might feel objectively its better than someone else's I suppose can be argued.

Theta's taking two channel and being able to make it say Dolby Digital plus another mode for the rest of the channels, like Dolby Digital plus Circle Surround, or Dolby Digital plus DPL2, or even taking analog stereo in from SACD and making it Analog Matrix (preserves analog two channel and derives digital to other channels) is a real nice proprietary feature. Certainly some other brands perhaps have some similar type proprietary modes.

I have a 5.1 (3 subs chained) system, so I really haven't paid attention to side channels, though I understand they are derived and nothing real proprietary here I would think. Same I would think goes for rear center channel. I don't know that sides or center rear use anything particularly proprietary. SDurani may be right about this. Frankly, I didn't perceive his initial comments about this as an attack against Theta, but as an attempt to clarify whats proprietary here. But I really haven't delved into this as it doesn't concern my system.

Theta's Six Shooter multi-channel analog preamp is certainly proprietary and unique to the CB3. And as Bulldogger does you can hook up two of them if you want to do more than 5.1 channels. Of course with HDMI audio 1.3 upgrade to come probably no one will even consider this - except maybe Bulldogger???

Theta's bass management is certainly proprietary, with so much choice of crossover types and slopes it can drive ya batty!!! But it does allow the extreme audiophile home theater voyeur to tailor the bass to setup, room and system. And as SDurani pointed, you can have four separate subs hooked up and you can program which speaker gives the low pass to the subs. Impression is other companies are getting better bass management now but not quite like this.

Theta's card cage system is certainly proprietary - who else has a surround processor since 1997 that remains now upgradeable to HDMI 1.3 audio? Pretty amazing.

How about Theta's volume control - choose analog or digital - my understanding is analog doesn't lose bits and sounds better. Ain't that proprietary?

Theta's re-EQ has four steps. In that sense its proprietary. Of course other surround processors often have their own re-EQ. And I don't know that anyone really needs to use all four steps.

Theta's "normal" and "wide" modes for digital audio are proprietary in the sense that all oher surround processors have only one mode.
The purpose of this is "normal" sounds better in a high resolution system (I have heard this) but "wide" locks easier for those
chips like in some satellite receivers that are likely not in spec like they should be.

Theta's card to link external DACs is certainly proprietary. Do you know of any other surround processor that allows for this? Now its questionable whether HDMI 1.3 audio will pass thu this card to external DACs due to HDMI license restrictions. A friend uses three stereo Levinson DACS with his still CB2 (not upgraded yet).

I recall when my then CB2 was upgraded from Superior to Extreme DACs, which we did in the field, we had to also upgrade with a new even more massive power supply to handle the "power" processing. The quality of the power supply in a component is proprietary in the sense that there are those engineers who believe objectively, and subjectively, that it makes a difference.

And that this upgradeable high end surround processor will soon have HDMI 1.3 audio LPCM and bitstream decoding of the new high resolution audio formats. I got exactly what I asked for here in ths forum several months ago - put the new HDMI 1.3 audio card right where the current video card is, have it video pass through/switching only, working with Theta's Extreme, Superior 2 or Premium DACs. COOL!

This is not to say that other companies like Levinson, Halcro, Lexicon do not have their own proprietary stuff. Some of us like Theta's stuff. Besides that Levinson is way out of my price range - and my Theta Casablanca has been reasonably upgradeable for years now.
It would be nice for this thread to get back to Theta only. And of course for Theta luvers to still ignore a certain D__ W__ who qualifies as a no nothing web expert if I ever saw one. But some others have asked objective questions or given objective info on this thread that
may well be legit. The CB3 has proprietary features but also has features including perhaps some steering and other stuff which of course is similar and perhaps at times the same as in some other companies' products.

________________________

Of course it is well established that the DB3's DACs aren't inherently capable of decoding SACD native bitstream to analog, that conversion to PCM would first have to be accomplished. But once the CB3 HDMI audio 1.3 upgrade is available, one could use an Oppo player, which outputs either SACD bitstream (but don't use with CB3) or converts SACD bitstream to PCM connected via HDMI to the CB3 and get the benefit of digital transmission to the CB3.
__________________________

Kal, I have always respected your technical knowledge and review and any
info you have is welcome. I don't respect everyone (guess who in particular) as on the web everyone is an "expert" but few may know much.

I don't know that sides or center rear use anything particularly proprietary. SDurani may be right about this. Frankly, I didn't perceive his initial comments about this as an attack against Theta, but as an attempt to clarify whats proprietary here.Thank you. Starting from my first post to my last post on the 'proprietary' subject, you'll notice I was asking about only one item: "steering software". Nothing else. The part about the side outputs being an "exact replica" of the surround outputs is a direct quote from the CBIII manual.

Sanjay

My participation in this thread started after JimHTPC claimed there were "HDMI issues"(plural) with the Lex. When pressed, he could only point to one (which had not only been resolved but couldn't even be pegged as originating from the Lex). He then alluded to Lex having issues with "other HDMI devices/switchers"(again, plural). When I asked which ones, he couldn't name a single device or swither. Not one.

So let me aks you: why do Theta owners feel so compelled to repeat unsupportable claims about Lexicon in a thread about Theta products? Is it really that impossible to stick to discussing Theta products in a thread about Theta products?

Sanjay

Well #1 because there was a verified problem. Lumagen created a workaround. I am trying to get detailed information on the subject not to please you but to send to Lexicon. I'm sorry the world doesn't move as fast as you would like it. #2 because I am not going to buy every possible HDMI device to "test". When I run across one I'll let you know. It stands to reason that if one HDMI device connected to the Lex created problems that others may too. I never said it did. You seem off on a rant so as to not understand the context of my post. After all I sell the Lex. So I'm not down on it like you think. I stand by my experience that the CB3 with Xtreme DACs is far superior to the Lex in similar formats. L7 is superior than PLII. The crossovers are better in the Theta. You can control independent settings for DD and DTS in the Theta. Lex cannot. DACs are better. Volume control is better. I've not had a single issue with AES locking. I know that some devices had problems locking, not because of experience, but because enough people had problems and Theta explained why. They even released special software for those individuals. How Theta handles their inputs is much better. And once their HDMI solution is released (providing it's bug free), I suspect the only positive thing on the Lex will be L7. I'm all in favor of a newer model from Lex that replaces the MC-12HD. Better products are easier to sell. HDMI has been a thorn in the side for Theta. If it doesn't have it, it's harder to sell as customers want it. Simple really. I suspect a change in the tide soon. Time will show us what happens.

Remember it was I who broke the news about the MC12 being replaced.

Do you mean MC-12 to MC-12HD? Or do you mean the replacement of the current MC-12HD to something newer?

Steve,

"Theta's card cage system is certainly proprietary - "

Meridian 861 is also card cage. So was the original Krell AV Standard. The ML pre-pros are card caged too.

"How about Theta's volume control - choose analog or digital - my understanding is analog doesn't lose bits and sounds better. Ain't that proprietary?"

Most pre-pros use analog volume controls.

"Theta's card to link external DACs is certainly proprietary. Do you know of any other surround processor that allows for this?"

Pretty much every Meridian pre-pro other then the all analog 541 has digital outputs. That goes back to the 565 which I think was released in 1994 or 1995. There have been a few others that have had digtial outputs for all channels too. One even predates the 565.

Shawn

I'm sorry the world doesn't move as fast as you would like it.Wasn't asking the world to move any faster. Just wanted clarification (which I got) on Lexicon's "HDMI issues" with "other HDMI devices/switchers". Nothing more complicated than that.

Sanjay

Pretty much every Meridian pre-pro other then the all analog 541 has digital outputs. That goes back to the 565 which I think was released in 1994 or 1995. There have been a few others that have had digtial outputs for all channels too. One even predates the 565.

Shawn

Can Meridian pre-pros be used with other companies' stereo DA converters like the Theta CB3 can do?

Listening to all this stuff makes me happy to have 7.1 lossless, today, here and now with no bugs... It took a while, but it is here and it is good.
.
Both Lexicon and Theta have serious flaws to those on the high end (Theta being most significant as there is no HDMI) & Lexicon no native 7.1 acceptance.

Honestly, to me this is a bad time to shop for pre/pros as there seems to be little worth owning that is new & nothing of value coming down the pipe line. I am happy with what I have but if I saw a new, true flagship piece, I'd try it. Unfortunately, there is nothing to buy.

An HDMI tune up for $4K with Theta looks like it will be a bargain price to pay for the benefit of lossless over HDMI. But like everyone else there will be bugs for that $4K price. I promise you. In talking with the Theta rep, in addition to new decoders, a fair amount of the internals will have to be retooled. Look at the very expensive [& designed from the ground up] Krell and all its HDMI issues. For $4K, Theta may be a better buy for current CBIII owners but you still take your chances... especially since it is a retrofit. I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone buy a brand new CB III with HDMI at this transitional time unless you have $20K to burn. That goes for Lexicon, too (and to a lesser extent Halcro too...except that it is the cheapest of the bunch). Truly, the Denon and to a lesser extent the Integra seem like the best to own at this point due to good performance, likely good resale and lower prices that will help carry the high end folks until the high end processor build direction get straightened out.

HDMI 1.3 appears to be the problem. As many manufacturers have lamented, decoding to LPCM should be done in the player. I disagreed early on but seeing all the issues and the fight from manufacturers to embrace such, LPCM should be where its at. My opinion is that since you cannot pass a second audio track or other features when bitstreaming from a player, LPCM may make a comeback as the transmission type of choice as it is less problematic (it has been done in processors for years), exactly what the BD manufacturers want (enables more user features) and the player can be equipped with enough processing power to efficiently do so and leave that onus off the processor so the processor can efficiently do its thing without spending precious processing power on decoding bitstream.

Theta will have a solution but it will have growing pains, too. But at $4K, it beats spending $15K on something similar.

Can Meridian pre-pros be used with other companies' stereo DA converters like the Theta CB3 can do?


Meridians can send out digital signals in two ways:

1) MHR (Meridian High Resolution), an encrypted 96/24 format that can only be used with Meridian DSP speakers, up to 7.1.

2) 44.1/48k, plain old S/PDIF, up to 7.1. I don't know the bit depth because Meridian has never answered my emails.

CB3 can also send 7.1 over S/PDIF (don't remember the resolution) including as an option the LCR over AES/EBU.

It looks like the upcoming Tact TCS3 has outlets for 7.1 over AES/EBU or S/PDIF, probably at 96/24.

I don't know of any other pre/pros that can output digital at this time.

The big question, as Shawn alluded to earlier, is what happens to HDMI. It is apparently "against the law" to output unencrypted digital audio if it comes in encrypted over HDMI. Meridian may be able to get around it if their encrypted MHR is approved but then only for their own speakers.

I don't know how Tact or Theta, both still unreleased, will be able to get around it. I don't know if they down rez the signal if that will make it acceptable. Outputting 48/24 should be sufficient as nearly all external DACs can upsample.

Can Meridian pre-pros be used with other companies' stereo DA converters like the Theta CB3 can do?
They can, but why in the world would you by a Meridian processor and then use third-party DACs?

Kal, as an "unbiased reviewer, what do you deem to be the "facts" re Theta's proprietary stuff?

What matters most to us Theta luvers is how it sounds. Objective info is nice but how it sounds still matters the most. Note I am not putting down any other brand in saying this.

Re the CB3:

Theta's center spread is proprietary.

Theta's Extreme DAC software is proprietary - whether one might feel objectively its better than someone else's I suppose can be argued.

Theta's taking two channel and being able to make it say Dolby Digital plus another mode for the rest of the channels, like Dolby Digital plus Circle Surround, or Dolby Digital plus DPL2, or even taking analog stereo in from SACD and making it Analog Matrix (preserves analog two channel and derives digital to other channels) is a real nice proprietary feature. Certainly some other brands perhaps have some similar type proprietary modes.

I have a 5.1 (3 subs chained) system, so I really haven't paid attention to side channels, though I understand they are derived and nothing real proprietary here I would think. Same I would think goes for rear center channel. I don't know that sides or center rear use anything particularly proprietary. SDurani may be right about this. Frankly, I didn't perceive his initial comments about this as an attack against Theta, but as an attempt to clarify whats proprietary here. But I really haven't delved into this as it doesn't concern my system.

Theta's Six Shooter multi-channel analog preamp is certainly proprietary and unique to the CB3. And as Bulldogger does you can hook up two of them if you want to do more than 5.1 channels. Of course with HDMI audio 1.3 upgrade to come probably no one will even consider this - except maybe Bulldogger???

Theta's bass management is certainly proprietary, with so much choice of crossover types and slopes it can drive ya batty!!! But it does allow the extreme audiophile home theater voyeur to tailor the bass to setup, room and system. And as SDurani pointed, you can have four separate subs hooked up and you can program which speaker gives the low pass to the subs. Impression is other companies are getting better bass management now but not quite like this.

Theta's card cage system is certainly proprietary - who else has a surround processor since 1997 that remains now upgradeable to HDMI 1.3 audio? Pretty amazing.

How about Theta's volume control - choose analog or digital - my understanding is analog doesn't lose bits and sounds better. Ain't that proprietary?

Theta's re-EQ has four steps. In that sense its proprietary. Of course other surround processors often have their own re-EQ. And I don't know that anyone really needs to use all four steps.

Theta's "normal" and "wide" modes for digital audio are proprietary in the sense that all oher surround processors have only one mode.
The purpose of this is "normal" sounds better in a high resolution system (I have heard this) but "wide" locks easier for those
chips like in some satellite receivers that are likely not in spec like they should be.

Theta's card to link external DACs is certainly proprietary. Do you know of any other surround processor that allows for this? Now its questionable whether HDMI 1.3 audio will pass thu this card to external DACs due to HDMI license restrictions. A friend uses three stereo Levinson DACS with his still CB2 (not upgraded yet).

I recall when my then CB2 was upgraded from Superior to Extreme DACs, which we did in the field, we had to also upgrade with a new even more massive power supply to handle the "power" processing. The quality of the power supply in a component is proprietary in the sense that there are those engineers who believe objectively, and subjectively, that it makes a difference.

And that this upgradeable high end surround processor will soon have HDMI 1.3 audio LPCM and bitstream decoding of the new high resolution audio formats. I got exactly what I asked for here in ths forum several months ago - put the new HDMI 1.3 audio card right where the current video card is, have it video pass through/switching only, working with Theta's Extreme, Superior 2 or Premium DACs. COOL!

This is not to say that other companies like Levinson, Halcro, Lexicon do not have their own proprietary stuff. Some of us like Theta's stuff. Besides that Levinson is way out of my price range - and my Theta Casablanca has been reasonably upgradeable for years now.
It would be nice for this thread to get back to Theta only. And of course for Theta luvers to still ignore a certain D__ W__ who qualifies as a no nothing web expert if I ever saw one. But some others have asked objective questions or given objective info on this thread that
may well be legit. The CB3 has proprietary features but also has features including perhaps some steering and other stuff which of course is similar and perhaps at times the same as in some other companies' products.

________________________

Of course it is well established that the DB3's DACs aren't inherently capable of decoding SACD native bitstream to analog, that conversion to PCM would first have to be accomplished. But once the CB3 HDMI audio 1.3 upgrade is available, one could use an Oppo player, which outputs either SACD bitstream (but don't use with CB3) or converts SACD bitstream to PCM connected via HDMI to the CB3 and get the benefit of digital transmission to the CB3.
__________________________

Kal, I have always respected your technical knowledge and review and any
info you have is welcome. I don't respect everyone (guess who in particular) as on the web everyone is an "expert" but few may know much.Quoted in full to illustrate the issue as well as some reasonable responses. Facts are facts and opinion is opinion. Both are generally welcome here. The problem comes when a factual question is asked and, instead of saying "dunno" or, even, "irrelevant," people become elaborately defensive. If something is, in fact, proprietary, it is likely that it is patented (and, therefore, public) or no one is told how it works so that the developer's advantage can be maintained. The latter, of course, leaves open the logical possibility that there is no "there" "there." That's why questions must get asked. Simply saying that something is proprietary says nothing unless one gets real information or one has faith in the holder of the secrets. Either position is OK with me.

So, I am not taking any sides on Theta here (or elsewhere) but simply observing that our allegiances can cause us to respond emotionally and inappropriately.

So, show me the patent # or eschew the use of 'proprietary'?

Quoted in full to illustrate the issue as well as some reasonable responses. Facts are facts and opinion is opinion. Both are generally welcome here. The problem comes when a factual question is asked and, instead of saying "dunno" or, even, "irrelevant," people become elaborately defensive. If something is, in fact, proprietary, it is likely that it is patented (and, therefore, public) or no one is told how it works so that the developer's advantage can be maintained. The latter, of course, leaves open the logical possibility that there is no "there" "there." That's why questions must get asked. Simply saying that something is proprietary says nothing unless one gets real information or one has faith in the holder of the secrets. Either position is OK with me.

So, I am not taking any sides on Theta here (or elsewhere) but simply observing that our allegiances can cause us to respond emotionally and inappropriately.

KAL, keep it up and we will write you in this November for POTUS!!!@@@

They can, but why in the world would you by a Meridian processor and then use third-party DACs?

Surround processors are "all in one box". External truly dedicated pieces are capable of outperforming them in every catergory. Compromise have to me made at certain price points. I mean there are dacs that cost upwards of 20k just for two channels adn even reasonably priced dacs like that may be capable. Surround processor even very good ones like Meridian can be outperformed this way. What Theta has hopefully done it allow the use out outboard dacs so that one is not limited to the internal dacs of the processor. Theta's own, Gen VIII dac will outperform any surround processor. I am amused by what this says if Theta can output a 24/96 7.1 digital signal with HDMI inputed sources. What it says to me, is that hi-rez audio, since I am assuming it's strictly audio and no video, is not of much financial value and thus not much a concern.

Simple. Folks here want the truth about products. Not rhetoric. It's crystal clear that the highest accolades of any component always come from their owners. In this case, Sanjay had the facts on his side and Bulldogger isn't able to rebut them with anything but insults.

There is nothing to rebut. The burden of proving any claims by Theta is not upon me. If he wants to refute Theta's claim of a proprietary mode, he need to provide more than what he has done so far. He made the initial claim and thus far has not provided any proof that what in on page 80 of the owners manual is untrue. It's clear that he was ignorant of the mode and made a baseless claim. I don't think it is "called for" to question the integrity of Theta Digital in this case.

Do you mean MC-12 to MC-12HD? Or do you mean the replacement of the current MC-12HD to something newer?

I did not know that the name would be the MC12HD but I knew that the MC12 was being discontinued. I expected a replacement for the MC12HD to be sooner than it has. Only information that I got about the MC12HD was that the replacement would be better sounding. Something about "the Lexicon guys being great at dsp modes and that sort of thing, but lousy at designing audio circuits" and that "the association with the Mark Levinson engineers was likely to result in Lexicon closing the gap with audio quality." Last I heard which is dated information. Take it for what it's worth. Source was a person that I deemed extremely reliable. Never given inaccurate information from this engineer. Same source who told me about that the MC12 was being replaced before apparently anyone around here posted it. Something happened though as the processor is not on the market.

Quote from Bulldoger:
There are a couple of ways of deriving a rear center even if the soundtrack is DTS, you can use DTS processing, DD EX, or Theta's proprietary processing.

Quote from Sanjay:
OK, I'll bite: what are the differences in those three mono extraction circuits? That is, how is Theta extracting a mono surround-back channel that is better (or even different) from what Dolby and DTS were already doing?

Quote from thebland:
Simple. Folks here want the truth about products. Not rhetoric. It's crystal clear that the highest accolades of any component always come from their owners. In this case, Sanjay had the facts on his side and Bulldogger isn't able to rebut them with anything but insults.

How is it different? Well, it proprietary so the exact details are probably unavailable. Unless you are a cynic and think that Theta is just lying, I suspect that it is similar to, or even derivative of, but not an exact copy of DTS and/or DD. That it may be similar to or derivative of does not exclude it from being proprietary. Whether it is better than DTS and/or DD is a matter for subjective evaluation. Only way to tell is to listen to it and to DTS and DD and see if you hear a difference, and then form a judgment as to which you prefer. Same goes for Theta's proprietary Center Spread mode. If you don't like them, don't use them. It doesn't mean they are not proprietary.

Well said.

Bulldogger, just be aware that the 3800 has a Realta chip. If you have a Video Processor it shouldn't matter, but if you need to use the BD player for SD DVD with no processor the 3800 will be much better. Regards, Norm

Trying to make the decision as to buy a video processor or upgrade my JVC RS1 to the RS20. What's your opinion? Is there no substitute for a good video processor?

Trying to make the decision as to buy a video processor or upgrade my JVC RS1 to the RS20. What's your opinion? Is there no substitute for a good video processor?
Given my track record around here, I think I'll forego offering an opinion. I might be called upon to prove it.:rolleyes:

KAL, keep it up and we will write you in this November for POTUS!!!@@@If elected, I will not serve!

If he wants to refute Theta's claim of a proprietary mode, he need to provide more than what he has done so far.Refute what? No one has been able to tell me what makes that mode 'proprietary' to begin with.

Sanjay

Trying to make the decision as to buy a video processor or upgrade my JVC RS1 to the RS20. What's your opinion? Is there no substitute for a good video processor?

It depends. Are you using an anamorphic lens? There isn't a plate for the RS-20 for anamorphic lens. John @ Panamorph believes one will be done for the RS-20. But until then, there isn't one. Hopefully one will exist around the end of November/December when the RS-20 is shipping.

I like the RS-20 over the RS1. You have more adjustments, and the motors are better than the knobs. The contrast is higher on the RS-20 along with some other refinements. I would suggest getting both the Rs-20 and a vidoe processor. I am waiting for my RadianceXE to ship. It is a good video processor to pair with the JVC series.

The only problem I see with the JVC is the 800 lumen output. But in a 17x25 light controlled room with a 1.3 gain screen it can be calibrated quite nicely. No it's not a Barco or Sim2, but you're paying much less for the setup.

Listening to all this stuff makes me happy to have 7.1 lossless, today, here and now with no bugs... It took a while, but it is here and it is good.
.
Both Lexicon and Theta have serious flaws to those on the high end (Theta being most significant as there is no HDMI) & Lexicon no native 7.1 acceptance.

Honestly, to me this is a bad time to shop for pre/pros as there seems to be little worth owning that is new & nothing of value coming down the pipe line. I am happy with what I have but if I saw a new, true flagship piece, I'd try it. Unfortunately, there is nothing to buy.

An HDMI tune up for $4K with Theta looks like it will be a bargain price to pay for the benefit of lossless over HDMI. But like everyone else there will be bugs for that $4K price. I promise you. In talking with the Theta rep, in addition to new decoders, a fair amount of the internals will have to be retooled. Look at the very expensive [& designed from the ground up] Krell and all its HDMI issues. For $4K, Theta may be a better buy for current CBIII owners but you still take your chances... especially since it is a retrofit. I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone buy a brand new CB III with HDMI at this transitional time unless you have $20K to burn. That goes for Lexicon, too (and to a lesser extent Halcro too...except that it is the cheapest of the bunch). Truly, the Denon and to a lesser extent the Integra seem like the best to own at this point due to good performance, likely good resale and lower prices that will help carry the high end folks until the high end processor build direction get straightened out.

HDMI 1.3 appears to be the problem. As many manufacturers have lamented, decoding to LPCM should be done in the player. I disagreed early on but seeing all the issues and the fight from manufacturers to embrace such, LPCM should be where its at. My opinion is that since you cannot pass a second audio track or other features when bitstreaming from a player, LPCM may make a comeback as the transmission type of choice as it is less problematic (it has been done in processors for years), exactly what the BD manufacturers want (enables more user features) and the player can be equipped with enough processing power to efficiently do so and leave that onus off the processor so the processor can efficiently do its thing without spending precious processing power on decoding bitstream.

Theta will have a solution but it will have growing pains, too. But at $4K, it beats spending $15K on something similar.

Jeff, this is truly a great post from you and its HONEST and FRANK. Now if I could just get you to do your review on the old DTS codec of 1509kps vs. DTS-MA that you promised a while back on the Denon 3800 post.:)

Refute what? No one has been able to tell me what makes that mode 'proprietary' to begin with.

Sanjay

I don't mean for this to come off snotty if it should happen to appear that way to you. Personally, I don't find your questions to be at all out of line.
Perhaps impossible for any to answer but certainly not out of line.
I find most of YOUR questions and arguments to be quite refreshing for the most part.
Unlike another poster that nit-pick posts to death in order to argue just for the sake of it. All that aside....

We know that neither the Lex. Halcro, Meridian or anyone else has a Mode that's called "Theta", therefore, in at least that sense it is definitely proprietary. Although that is just a word, there is "something" that makes it sound different.

I can't say what the differances are, maybe someone else might even be able to describe what it is that they hear that is different sounding from other modes.
I myself cannot say more then, it just doesn't sound the same as DTS or DD, there's a didfferent sound to it but I can't put my finger on it.
When I used my CBI I perfered it's sound over other modes.

Nowadays I use my CBIII processor a bit different and havn't found a place I strictly prefer it over other modes.

So, no S for those looking for that type of description from me on AVS but it's the best I could offer at this time.
I don't think anyone from Theta is going to give us the details.

Refute what? No one has been able to tell me what makes that mode 'proprietary' to begin with.

Sanjay
If Coke claimed (as it does) that its formula is propriety, how would I go about proving it? It's not patented so it is not available for public scrutiny. I could prove it only if a) I somehow was able to obtain their proprietary (secret) formula, or b) I did taste tests to determine if any other cola tasted the same. If you were skeptical and didn't believe Coke's claim, and you were unwilling to taste it and the other colas to confirm to yourself that indeed Coke does taste different from other colas and its formula is indeed proprietary, there would be nothing I could do to prove to you otherwise.

If you don't think Theta's method of extracting rear channels or manipulating center spread is proprietary, since Theta is unlikely to divulge what it claims is its proprietary information just to satisfy your curiosity, the only way to prove it to you would be for you to sit down and listen and compare it to DD and DTS and Neo:6 and Circle Surround and Logic 7 and whatever other surround mode you wanted to see if it sounded different. If you heard a difference, it would be proof. If you didn't hear a difference, then it would be fair for you to conclude that a) Theta was not being honest with you, b) you were not being honest with yourself, or c) you have impaired hearing.

As the saying goes, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting; or put another way, the proof of the proprietary nature of Theta's derivation of rear channels and center spread is in the hearing.

Quote:
Center Channel Spread -- A Theta exclusive, this important mode corrects for theater sound mixes, that route anywhere from 70% to a shocking 90% of the sound to the center channel – usually the weakest speaker in a surround-sound array. This is corrected by directing a portion of the Center Channel signal to the Front Left and Right Speakers, usually the best ones in the system. Center spread is variable, so you can use it as subtlely as you wish.

A Response To that quote was

Right from the theta website, I like how they point out the obvious about why there is a center channel and by the looks of it theta wants a mono sound outputed over all speakers.

I certainly don't want to feed the animals by responding to that statement, so he'll remain nameless. Although, the benefits of having this option should be noted.

I find the use of Center Channel Spread to be of indispensable use.
It helps create a much larger sound stage, a description that many use lightly, for everything from a new power cord to...you name it.
But in this instance, that is exactly what it does and in a not very subtle fashion if you don't want it to be.
And, it in no way, shape or form, turns the 3 channels in question MONO!
That, is simply not the case.
Anyone that thinks that, has just never heard it used, no question in my mind!

With certain program material, allot... NO, too much of it in fact, they may as well have just recorded it in mono using only the center channel.
Without the use of the center spread feature, that's precisely the way it would sound.
Thankfully, it does not have to. It's a truely wonderful feature.
One of my favorites!

Trying to make the decision as to buy a video processor or upgrade my JVC RS1 to the RS20. What's your opinion? Is there no substitute for a good video processor?
Bulldogger, the JVC's have a Gennum VXP Processor Chip which is very good. An external video processor gives you more control since all of its features are opened up to user adjustment. The in projector processors tend to be more turn-key and pre set. We use a DVDO VP-50pro for it's vesitility and great processing, plus it has and SDI input for our Compli for SD DVD, ( the best we've found.) An external processor also has more switching, and requires only a single cable to the projector. Of course, the Theta HDMI input card will offer 4 in x 1 out HDMI so the switching won't be as important.
An HDMI direct into to any of the JVC DILA's gives a tremendous picture, and has a lot of features. The RS 20 will have Gamma adjustment programs included. We were impressed by the RS-20/HD-750 JVC's at CEDIA, and we are considering using that as our main demo.
Either way just be sure to set the BD player to 480 (i if possible) for SD DVD's and not use their internal scaling. Regards, Norm

Bulldogger, the JVC's have a Gennum VXP Processor Chip which is very good.

A small correction. The RS-1 & RS-2 have the Gennum. The RS-20 has HQV Reon-VX from Silicon Optix. I believe I read somewhere that the Gennum was originally picked due to availability issues. Not necessarily for performance.

A small correction. The RS-1 & RS-2 have the Gennum. The RS-20 has HQV Reon-VX from Silicon Optix. I believe I read somewhere that the Gennum was originally picked due to availability issues. Not necessarily for performance.

Jim, thanks for the correction. I have the lit on the 1 & 2, but not on the 20/750 yet. Bad assumption on my part. We did see them at CEDIA however, and they were quite excellent. Regards, Norm

Jim, thanks for the correction. I have the lit on the 1 & 2, but not on the 20/750 yet. Bad assumption on my part. We did see them at CEDIA however, and they were quite excellent. Regards, Norm

Ah you mean you were dazzled @ the demo and walked past the single page spec sheet on the RS-20? lol I agree it is better than the RS-2. In my opinion, the RS-2 should be retired and the RS-20 be called the RS-2.1 or something like that; as it's mostly refinements and not major improvements over the RS-2.

I use the Reon chip in my Onkyo 9.8 to the RS2 rather than the onboard Gennum -- I find the Reon a bit better using the 480i out of my Oppo

If you were skeptical and didn't believe Coke's claim, and you were unwilling to taste it and the other colas to confirm to yourself that indeed Coke does taste different from other colas and its formula is indeed proprietary, there would be nothing I could do to prove to you otherwise."Unwilling" to taste it? More like not having access to a bottle of Coke. However, if I went to someone that did have a bottle of Coke and asked them how it tasted compared to Pepsi, they would likely tell me that it was more carbonated and less sweet. Nothing unanswerable there.

Now put yourself in my place for a moment and imagine asking a group of Coke drinkers how their favourite beverage tasted compared to Pepsi. You're not asking about bottling, lables, price or marketing. Just one aspect: taste. Except no one can tell you how the taste compares to Pepsi, even though they've got a bottle of both.

Since I don't have access to a CBIII, I can't compare back channel extraction modes (Theta vs EX) myself. But I was willing to accept a description of how they worked differently or even how they sounded compared to each other. Apparently I'm going to get neither, so I'll have to leave it at that and accept on faith Bulldogger's proof that it is proprietary: it must be true since it says so in the book (page 80, verse 6).

Sanjay

Since I don't have access to a CBIII, I can't compare back channel extraction modes (Theta vs EX) myself. But I was willing to accept a description of how they worked differently or even how they sounded compared to each other. Apparently I'm going to get neither, so I'll have to leave it at that and accept on faith Bulldogger's proof that it is proprietary: it must be true since it says so in the book (page 80, verse 6).
As I said, the proof of the proprietary nature of Theta's derivation of rear channels and center spread is in the hearing. If you don't listen to the CB III there is nothing that can be done to prove it to you. You can either disbelieve it or take it on the faith of 1) Theta's claim or 2) the reports of others who have heard it. It is up to you to decide what to believe.

As I said, the proof of the proprietary nature of Theta's derivation of rear channels and center spread is in the hearing.

We'll pretend you didn't say that as that skirts the seeking of an objective, hard fact answer. Hearing proves nothing objectively. But I know as a biased owner, it can be the 'gold standard' as you suggest..

If you don't listen to the CB III there is nothing that can be done to prove it to you.

You can stop now...

I have heard the CB, I like my Halcro better... does it mean that the CBIII is threrfore NOT proprietary?? (See my point)?

You can either disbelieve it or take it on the faith of 1) Theta's claim or 2) the reports of others who have heard it. It is up to you to decide what to believe.

None of the above.. Just an objective fact. Perhaps search the USPatents site..

We'll pretend you didn't say that as that skirts the seeking of an objective, hard fact answer. Hearing proves nothing objectively. But I know as a biased owner, it can be the 'gold standard' as you suggest..
If it sounds different it is different. One, however, may be mistaken about whether something sounds different.

I have heard the CB, I like my Halcro better... does it mean that the CBIII is therefore NOT proprietary?? (See my point)?
What you like has nothing to do with whether something is proprietary or not.

None of the above.. Just an objective fact. Perhaps search the USPatents site..
Perhaps you don't understand that something which is proprietary does not have to be patented. The formula for Coke is the obvious example.

Frank,

"As I said, the proof of the proprietary nature of Theta's derivation of rear channels and center spread is in the hearing."

Sanjay was asking about proprietary steering. So just sounds different doesn't answer that question. For example running a center channel 2dB louder or quieter then another processor would sound different and have nothing to do with proprietary steering. Mixing some of the center channel into L/R would sound different but wouldn't be steering. Copying the same signal to multiple outputs would sound different but again wouldn't be steering.

One would need to do some trials with surround panned material and things like that to try and determine if any additional steering is occurring.

Shawn

One would need to do some trials with surround panned material and things like that to try and determine if any additional steering is occurring.
Shawn, you are exactly right. I should have elaborated.

I have heard the CB, I like my Halcro better...does it mean that the CBIII is threrfore NOT proprietary?? (See my point)?



But only with the older Superior dacs not the Extremes or Superior II t. Vastly different processor with different dacs. If you want to talk objective measurements, those are different as well with the various dacs. The dacs you used are discontinued. Your comments do not apply to any current Casablancas with newer dacs and you know it. You have no idea how they sound. I have not heard the Premium card but the Sup II and Extreme are significantly better sounding.

But only with the older Superior dacs not the Extremes or Superior II t. Vastly different processor with different dacs. If you want to talk objective measurements, those are different as well with the various dacs. The dacs you used are discontinued. Your comments do not apply to any current Casablancas with newer dacs and you know it. You have no idea how they sound. I have not heard the Premium card but the Sup II and Extreme are significantly better sounding.

I don't need to know. I like what I have and am not in the market for a new processor... Besides, the ultimate sound of any soundtrack is predicated on so many components, #1 & #2 being the room itself and room DSP. If you ask me, there is too much emphasis on nuance differences between processors at the top end.

Moreover, in the next year when brand new processor designs, DACs, etc make their way into the new wave of surround processors, then I'll be looking for a replacement. There is nothing new right now. Classe', for example, on their brand new SSP-800 has held off TRUE HD decoding and DTS MA decoding until '09. It can't even do it right now!!!

Their reason? New components to be released at the end of the year will make their way into the 800 as current components are just not ready for prime time. Smart and I agree. It's not the time to buy a HDMI bitstream 1.3 decoding processor. I hope Theta waits too (except that is an even longer wait for you for HDMIM). Not great options...

So, for me, (and my reason for going to CEDIA) is to choose between the new Christie or the Titan Reference projectors. My video is lagging, my audio is fantastic. Soon, all will be good.

. If you ask me, there is too much emphasis on nuance differences between processors at the top end.
.

With regular Dolby Digital that's very true. However the debate is often about whether music sounds better. Sound is sound,IMO. What I suspect is happening is that most "music" is CD and thus higher resolution than DD. As you increase resolution, IMO, that's where you begin to hear differences.

Shawn, you are exactly right. I should have elaborated.

You are wasting your time. As soon as you provided the objective data, an attempt will be made to discredit what ever proprietary mode Theta has which is not the point. The point is it exist. The Casablanca HAS ALWAYS had proprietary surround modes. The CB-I used proprietary modes, shows how much Steve knows:p, something similiar to hafler sum/difference circuits for analog and dsp matrix modes. Think Quadraphonic. We are talking like 10 years ago.

You are wasting your time. As soon as you provided the objective data, an attempt will be made to discredit what ever proprietary mode Theta has which is not the point. The point is it exist. The Casablanca HAS ALWAYS had proprietary surround modes. The CB-I used proprietary modes, shows how much Steve knows:p, something similiar to hafler sum/difference circuits for analog and dsp matrix modes. Think Quadraphonic. We are talking like 10 years ago.
Actually my first foray into multi-channel was in 1973 with the addition of a Dynaco Quadapter and pair of rear speakers into my setup. That was 35 years ago. However, it is all the same fundamental technology. Of course it has been vastly improved since the early days, sometimes in a proprietary manner.

How did "The Bland" become the "Nostradamus of HT"? Didn't The Bland predict no HDMI for the Casablanca, and that it was a dead end processor?

Maybe go back to grape predictions instead of HT. :p

Actually.... There still is no hdmi for Theta! So I'm still right! Recall the Cedia CB III was a non powered prop (but it did have hdmi.......):D

All you ballers, rap stars, pro atheltes and docs call me for the Cary C11a in a "couple of weeks"...

:D

I saw the Cary at CEDIA... Not bad for $7K. Nice looking, too...

Actually my first foray into multi-channel was in 1973 with the addition of a Dynaco Quadapter and pair of rear speakers into my setup. That was 35 years ago. However, it is all the same fundamental technology. Of course it has been vastly improved since the early days, sometimes in a proprietary manner.

I'm with you. What I am saying is that's how long Theta has been using proprietary modes on the Casablanca.

It depends. Are you using an anamorphic lens? There isn't a plate for the RS-20 for anamorphic lens. John @ Panamorph believes one will be done for the RS-20. But until then, there isn't one. Hopefully one will exist around the end of November/December when the RS-20 is shipping.

I like the RS-20 over the RS1. You have more adjustments, and the motors are better than the knobs. The contrast is higher on the RS-20 along with some other refinements. I would suggest getting both the Rs-20 and a vidoe processor. I am waiting for my RadianceXE to ship. It is a good video processor to pair with the JVC series.

The only problem I see with the JVC is the 800 lumen output. But in a 17x25 light controlled room with a 1.3 gain screen it can be calibrated quite nicely. No it's not a Barco or Sim2, but you're paying much less for the setup.

Thanks Jim and Norm. I'll stop asking about this here. My room is about that size.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprietary

"The word proprietary indicates that a party, or proprietor, exercises private ownership, control or use over an item of property."

Proprietary to me indicates unique. Who said "patented". Only THE BLAND, Mr. anti-Theta still, would think of that. HA!!!@@@

So the Bland prefers his Halcro to the old CB2 with Superior DACs. He doesn't tell you that he hasn't demod the CB3 or its Superior 2 or Extreme DACs.

I don't need to know. I like what I have and am not in the market for a new processor... Besides, the ultimate sound of any soundtrack is predicated on so many components, #1 & #2 being the room itself and room DSP. If you ask me, there is too much emphasis on nuance differences between processors at the top end.

Moreover, in the next year when brand new processor designs, DACs, etc make their way into the new wave of surround processors, then I'll be looking for a replacement. There is nothing new right now. Classe', for example, on their brand new SSP-800 has held off TRUE HD decoding and DTS MA decoding until '09. It can't even do it right now!!!

Their reason? New components to be released at the end of the year will make their way into the 800 as current components are just not ready for prime time. Smart and I agree. It's not the time to buy a HDMI bitstream 1.3 decoding processor. I hope Theta waits too (except that is an even longer wait for you for HDMIM). Not great options...

So, for me, (and my reason for going to CEDIA) is to choose between the new Christie or the Titan Reference projectors. My video is lagging, my audio is fantastic. Soon, all will be good.

Jeff, this makes sense for you!

You luv your Sony Qualia, but now you have a bigger wider screen, and although the Qualia works fine, you can do better. But you are not in a hurry and are waiting for the right product that suits your fancy and is worth the buck for you.

Your surround processor is Halcro and works well for you. LPCM decoding in the player works fine for you. So any processor upgrade for you is more down the line than someone looking a buying a new high end surround processor with HDMI audio capability or for a current Theta CB3 owner overjoyed at the soon to be upgrade.

Sure your attitude is hold off on the HDMI 1.3 audio processor. Why wouldn't it be? Look at all the hassles you Halcro "beta" testers have been having with Halro's LPCM processing only!!! And you're not in the market for a new surround processors for some time, anyway. You may as well wait for even more new featues.

But your "anti-Theta assumption" that Theta's implementation of HDMI 1.3 audio processing will have problems is rediculous. Theta is only doing video pass through with the audio processing an decoding. My Integra 9.8 does all of this absolutely fine. And ATI has access to the best programmers and parts in the business due to their large manufacturing base. It will work fine.

You are wasting your time. As soon as you provided the objective data, an attempt will be made to discredit what ever proprietary mode Theta has which is not the point. The point is it exist. The Casablanca HAS ALWAYS had proprietary surround modes. The CB-I used proprietary modes, shows how much Steve knows:p, something similiar to hafler sum/difference circuits for analog and dsp matrix modes. Think Quadraphonic. We are talking like 10 years ago.

Yea, what the heck do I know???

My CB1 had Circle Surround which was wonderful in my system on two channel expanding ot multi-channel. But the CB3 has DPL2, CS2, etc., etc. and is much better!!!! Back in the CB1 days, Theta was the only company for some years with Circle Surround. Sounds "proprietary" to me.

Theta's "analog matrix" mode is pretty nifty and "proprietary". Mebbe they do it similar to some others. But two channel SACD can sound pretty nice using that mode, retaining for front left and right the purity of the incoming analog signal (though using the Six Shooter but for straight analog two channel sounds better for the front stereo channels but not as all around encompassing as using the CB3's onboard analog stereo input which allows you to use Analog Matrix mode).

I really can't say re the side surrounds, center rear because I don't use them.
Keep in mind that Theta could be deriving them similar to other companies, but they might sound better because of the CB3 build, power supply, shielding, etc. Or perhaps there is something more proprietary to them - I really haven't investigated.