OK. I haven't started a thread here for awhile so be nice.:)

There were 5 other threads on this here at AVS but none in this forum and none with a great deal of discussion. Also, none were dealing with the possibility of INTENTIONAL frame dropping by providers.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1046622

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1022455

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1008195

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=915241

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=807511

I've heard a RUMOR that some sat/cable/other providers may be intentionally dropping frames to make more room for commercials. For example, 1% less program time can be gained by dropping 1/100 frames during the program. The problem is that this also causes noticeable artifacts in the form of stuttering/sputtering in the image and also reaks havoc with deinterlacers trying to keep up at the display (or inside the video processor).

I have been puzzled by an increased frequency of these types of artifacts recently. My sat provider is D* and it seems to be more noticeable on non-network, non-movie channels such as TNT-HD, Universal HD, and SPIKE-HD. It also seems more prevalent on film-based shows.

Additionally, I hear faint "pops" in the audio from time to time. I really didn't consider the fact that the two issues might be related (and they might not be) but the last of the threads listed above seemed to correlate "crackling audio" with dropped frames.

If this is truly happening and it's intentional as well as economically motivated, then I think it deserves formal protest from all here who value the best in PQ and SQ as well as those who expect to get what they paid hard-earned dollars for.

I don't know of any way to prove or disprove this but I'm hoping someone else here can help.

If you're using a PVR it may be a drive related issue. If you have more than one receiver you might see if the problem occurs on both at the same time. There is the practice used by channels to speed up programs to add more commercials. This will typically drop a field at a time. This has been going on for decades. This will cause cadence problems and possibly choppy video. If that's the case it will happen at the same point on different receivers. There was a point many years ago that film transfers for delivery to networks used varispeed on the telecine but now it's done downstream.

Some of those posts are about playing on a PC. I will get stutters sometimes from OTA PC recordings but they are usually caused by corrupted frames. Software decoders are more susceptible than hardware as even a single corrupted block can cause the entire frame to be dropped. I use a program called MPEG2Repair to deal with that.

Yep - another cause with PC solutions is the PC running at 60Hz rather than 59.94Hz - meaning you end up with occasional repeated frames (which can look very similar to a dropped frame)

My notebook video card (NVidia) was actually running too slow and the video would gradually get way out of lip sync and then pop back in. I used Powerstrip to increase it. It never gets a perfect lock so it does repeat a 1/60th sec frame once in a while. It's not really noticeable at all on 24p material. Unfortunately it runs just over 60hz (I think 60.3) and some external displays don't like that. I usually use the internal display so it's not that big of a deal.

How about bit error rate ? Will the satellite receiver allow you to view the incoming errors ?

No, mine won't anyway. It's a D* H20.

There is the practice used by channels to speed up programs to add more commercials. This will typically drop a field at a time. This has been going on for decades. This will cause cadence problems and possibly choppy video. .

Well, I think they need to figure a way out to make their money without crapping our PQ. Surely some other method could be devised or else some manner of standardization so the display/processor on the user end can compensate.

What about the faint audio "pops" I'm hearing intermittently? Is that related to this at all? Anyone else hear it?

What about the faint audio "pops" I'm hearing intermittently? Is that related to this at all? Anyone else hear it?

I've been hearing those pops a lot lately with all channels including the major network HD channels on comcast. I started noticing the pops at about the beginning of summer.

Hmmm.

That's about the time when I began noticing both the pops and the stuttering.

Hmmm.

That's about the time when I began noticing both the pops and the stuttering.Yup, I notice the stutter on the same channels you do. Very annoying. TNT has got to be the worst, but Spike comes in a close second, particularly with re-runs of CSI, a complete mess.

Yup, I notice the stutter on the same channels you do. Very annoying. TNT has got to be the worst, but Spike comes in a close second, particularly with re-runs of CSI, a complete mess.

Definitley a pattern going on, with people mentioning TNT and Spike with regularity on various threads. Wouldnt it be the source itself doing the manipulating of the frames in order to gain more commercial time though? Seemed the OP was suggesting it was the providers.

CSI on Spike is a complete nightmare, impossible to watch. I pretty much never watch TNT, but tonight I sat down for a complete episode of Without a Trace and the studdering/juddering/frame dropping or whatever you want to call it was really bad. I wouldnt say it was on the same level as CSI on Spike, but it was bad and really easy to notice.

Another poster suggested to check and see if it was happening simutaneously on different recievers. I checked this, one box a DVR, one box not a DVR, exact same problem on both. This is definitley not a consumer hardware issue, IMO.

Whatever is going on its getting pretty sickening, and Im really suprised there isnt more complaints regarding these issues than there is.

D* is my provider, btw..

No problem with FiOS, so its not the provider.

No problem with FiOS, so its not the provider.

If theres no problem with FIOS, and there is a problem with D*, that would indicate to me it IS a provider issue is.

Personally I never saw these issues once when I had Charter HD up till about 10 weeks ago, again indicating that it is possibly a provider issue.

I dunno, maybe you are referring to the programming networks as the providers, which would explain my confusion. I refer to the networks as the source, and the cable/DBS co's as the providers.

I should have made that clearer. I thought by saying provider instead of MSO, it would be clear that I meant the original supplier. My mistake.

I agree that it is happening after it is handed off from the original source - at the MSO.

I would also speculate that it has something to do with the re-encoding, especially going from MPEG2 to MPEG4, or statmuxing on a cable system.

For example, E* has been a mess with this on the NBC Local in Atlanta for 2+ years now and never gotten it fixed - and Atlanta was in their first set of HD-LILs.

I know that I can take a clean transport stream that I know has no errors and run it through an ATSC/8VSB encoder and usually see at least one stutter over the course of a movie, so I do suspect that it has something to do with the re-encoding - and most likely, PCR errors common on telecine material.

I should have made that clearer. I thought by saying provider instead of MSO, it would be clear that I meant the original supplier. My mistake.

I agree that it is happening after it is handed off from the original source - at the MSO.

I would also speculate that it has something to do with the re-encoding, especially going from MPEG2 to MPEG4, or statmuxing on a cable system.

For example, E* has been a mess with this on the NBC Local in Atlanta for 2+ years now and never gotten it fixed - and Atlanta was in their first set of HD-LILs.

I know that I can take a clean transport stream that I know has no errors and run it through an ATSC/8VSB encoder and usually see at least one stutter over the course of a movie, so I do suspect that it has something to do with the re-encoding - and most likely, PCR errors common on telecine material.

No problem, Im not all that hard to confuse.

What does MSO stand for, just out of curiousity?

No problem with FiOS, so its not the provider.


Does Fios have Spike HD?. I did not think they did.

Does Fios have Spike HD?. I did not think they did.

No...referring to TNT-HD which was said to be the worse.

Yup, I notice the stutter on the same channels you do. Very annoying. TNT has got to be the worst

No...referring to TNT-HD which was said to be the worse.

To my eyes the problem is alot more subtle on TNT, as opposed to Spike..

I doubt a person with your obvious technical proficency would fail to see the problem on TNT though.

I would bet the vast majority of non technical/non videophile types are not seeing the problem at all on either channel though.

I believe thats the reason we arent seeing a massive outcry regarding these issues.

There was a thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=998251) a few months back about stuttering problems on D*/E* HD locals caused by something in the MPEG2 decoder->MPEG4 encoder chain not supporting repeat flags used to duplicate frames when airing 24p content at 720p. This was mainly a problem at ABC stations using the Harris NetVX encoder, with WLS and WSB being the main stations affected. I can't say if this is the same problem since I have no idea what encoder TNT uses, but from what I remember, it does support telecine flags so this may very well be the same issue.

If it's not intentional but is just a glitch/error somewhere along the line, maybe there's hope for a fix. If it's intentional frame dropping to insert more commercial time...probably not.

What does MSO stand for, just out of curiousity?

He probably means a "multiple system operator," a cable industry term for holding companies that own systems in multiple markets. When cable first began there weren't many of these, but by the 1970's companies like Tele-Communications, Inc. began buying up individual systems, and MSOs were born.

Nowadays, of course, almost every cable system is owned by an MSO.

If several of you that have experienced this "dropped frame/stuttering" effect on D*, please reply with the following info. PLEASE make sure of your answer and if you are not sure, don't assume or guess.

1) DVR or Non-DVR - what model

2) HDMI or Component

3) Brand of TV

4) Do you notice pops in the audio as in Post #1 / dropouts or neither as its only a video event

There is a method to the madness in my request.

If several of you that have experienced this "dropped frame/stuttering" effect on D*, please reply with the following info. PLEASE make sure of your answer and if you are not sure, don't assume or guess.

1) DVR or Non-DVR - what model

2) HDMI or Component

3) Brand of TV

4) Do you notice pops in the audio as in Post #1 / dropouts or neither as its only a video event

There is a method to the madness in my request.

1)D* H20 (non-DVR)
2)HDMI
3)Integra DTC-9.8 audio/video processor
--Sony vpl-vw50 (front projector)
4)Notice very soft audio pops occuring randomly probably less then 10x/hour

1)D* H20 (non-DVR)
2)HDMI
3)Integra DTC-9.8 audio/video processor
--Sony vpl-vw50 (front projector)
4)Notice very soft audio pops occuring randomly probably less then 10x/hour


The pops and dropped frames may be casued by you Integra receiver. When I had Onkyo 950 I saw and heard the same thing. Bypass the AVR and check if you still see the problem.

The pops and dropped frames may be casued by you rIntegra receiver. When I had Onkyo 950 I saw and heard the same thing. Bypass the AVR and check if you still see the problem.

Already did that. It also happens (the video stuttering) either straight to the display or through another VP I have.

I suppose the audio pops could be the Integra. I don't really have a way currently of testing that as my pj doesn't have audio capability. A few others have noted the pops as well though.

If several of you that have experienced this "dropped frame/stuttering" effect on D*, please reply with the following info. PLEASE make sure of your answer and if you are not sure, don't assume or guess.

1) DVR or Non-DVR - what model

2) HDMI or Component

3) Brand of TV

4) Do you notice pops in the audio as in Post #1 / dropouts or neither as its only a video event

There is a method to the madness in my request.

1) (2) H21-100's - (1) HR21-100
2) All connected via HDMI
3) Sony 50 XBR1 SXRD - Sony 40XBR4 - Westinghouse SK-26H590D
4) Dont notice the audio pops at all, although Im known to watch TV at very low volume, and I listen to audio directly through the TV when watching D*.

I see the video issues on Spike and TNT on all 3 sets, depending on programming. I have verified that its happens simutaneously on all 3 sets as well.

1) (2) H21-100's - (1) HR21-100
2) All connected via HDMI
3) Sony 50 XBR1 SXRD - Sony 40XBR4 - Westinghouse SK-26H590D
4) Dont notice the audio pops at all, although Im known to watch TV at very low volume, and I listen to audio directly through the TV when watching D*.

I see the video issues on Spike and TNT on all 3 sets, depending on programming. I have verified that its happens simutaneously on all 3 sets as well.


well, that blows that theory out of the water.

I put on TNT on D* and other providers via DVRs on all so when it happened I could go back to the exact place and look at several providers. TNT-HD happened to be showing Dangerous Minds which I had no reason to watch (Especially with someone as thin as Michelle Pfeiffer looking like Rosie O'Donnell via TNT stretch-o-vision). So I turned up the volume and worked in the other room. Twice I heard what I thought was a definitive dropout in audio and went to the other room to rewind the DVR, only to find it not there - so whether there was a HDMI transmission error from the DVR, no way of knowing. But that apparently is not the audio "pop" that represents this issue.

I do have a SXRD, though the XBR2, as well as other sets, so I can replicate most of the link you have.

I thought that perhaps it was a DVR only issue (as there are known issues with certain DVRs and Hard Drive Combinations), but the other person shows a non-dvr as the issue.

Anyway, I guess I have to actually watch TNT-HD for a while to try and catch the issue.

I get choppy/jerky/stuttering video REGULARLY from my HR 21 D DVR to my Mits 52" DLP. It happens intermittently every damn day and is getting older than dirt!

Happens with HDMI and component as well. Seen it on all types of channels, HD and SD!

WTF can we do about this crap from D*?

I get choppy/jerky/stuttering video REGULARLY from my HR 21 D DVR to my Mits 52" DLP. It happens intermittently every damn day and is getting older than dirt!

Happens with HDMI and component as well. Seen it on all types of channels, HD and SD!

WTF can we do about this crap from D*?


Alot more people are going to have to start acknowleding the problems and reporting them before anything changes.

Anyone that is seeing these problems please make sure you at least call D* and let them know. I guarantee you they will act like you are insane and they will claim they know nothing of it, but the call still needs to be made. Then we can hope that D* is documenting the complaints and will eventually look into it when enough complaints roll in.

The problem right now is that not alot people seem to give a rip about this issue. Another problem is that its not an issue that most J6P types are going to notice. And if they do happen to notice it isnt going to bother most of them.

To document my point about J6p I offer this: I did make the call to D* regarding these issues. Of course they acted as if I was crazy, and had no knowledge of the issues. I scheduled a service call, and I had some of the worst stuff I could find from Spike and TNT saved on my DVR. When I played the content back for the so called "service tech", he watched about 4 different recordings for maybe 2 to 3 minutes each. He did not see the problem :)

Alot more people are going to have to start acknowleding the problems and reporting them before anything changes.

Anyone that is seeing these problems please make sure you at least call D* and let them know. I guarantee you they will act like you are insane and they will claim they know nothing of it, but the call still needs to be made. Then we can hope that D* is documenting the complaints and will eventually look into it when enough complaints roll in.

The problem right now is that not alot people seem to give a rip about this issue. Another problem is that its not an issue that most J6P types are going to notice. And if they do happen to notice it isnt going to bother most of them.

To document my point about J6p I offer this: I did make the call to D* regarding these issues. Of course they acted as if I was crazy, and had no knowledge of the issues. I scheduled a service call, and I had some of the worst stuff I could find from Spike and TNT saved on my DVR. When I played the content back for the so called "service tech", he watched about 4 different recordings for maybe 2 to 3 minutes each. He did not see the problem :)


The problem is that many people think it is D* problem, but many times it turns out to be their equipment. If somebody sees stuttering on many SD and HD channels it is almost certain that it is their problem. Also people have to post exactly what channel they see problem, what time and what show. I make calls to D* when I am sure that is their problem. However the best place to post any issues is DBSTALK forum. D* watches it plus there are people there that work for D*.

The problem is that many people think it is D* problem, but many times it turns out to be their equipment. If somebody sees stuttering on many SD and HD channels it is almost certain that it is their problem. Also people have to post exactly what channel they see problem, what time and what show. I make calls to D* when I am sure that is their problem. However the best place to post any issues is DBSTALK forum. D* watches it plus there are people there that work for D*.

I think its a D* problem, or a source problem. It definitely is not my equipment or anyone elses as it happens on all my boxes and TV's. It also happens on all my moms boxes and TV's. It also happens on all my best friends TV's and boxes.

I think a huge part of the problem is that people are way to quick to blame problems on consumer hardware. If its a problem with equipment than I am looking at 10 HDTV's, 6 D* HD DVR's, and 4 D* non DVRS that are all having the exact same problem. Not...

Also, just for the record, neither my Mom and stepdad, or my best friend recognized it as problem at all until I pointed it out to them. Your average person doesent see these problems. Either that or they do see it and just dont see it as a problem. They see it as thats just the way it is..

Also, if it was an equipment problem, I would think I would be seeing it on all channels, not just Spike and TNT.

There is a great example of stutter/frame dropping on DirecTV 248, FXHD right now. It is a showing of X-Men 2. I don't see the stuttering during commercials, only the movie.

There is a great example of stutter/frame dropping on DirecTV 248, FXHD right now. It is a showing of X-Men 2. I don't see the stuttering during commercials, only the movie.

Its your equipment bro! :D

If several of you that have experienced this "dropped frame/stuttering" effect on D*, please reply with the following info. PLEASE make sure of your answer and if you are not sure, don't assume or guess.

1) DVR or Non-DVR - what model

2) HDMI or Component

3) Brand of TV

4) Do you notice pops in the audio as in Post #1 / dropouts or neither as its only a video event

There is a method to the madness in my request.

1. 2 HR21's - it's gotten really bad on CSI on SpikeHD the past couple of nights.
2. HDMI
3. Panasonic plasma and Insignia plasma.
4. Only a video event.

Update:

Watching Spike HD... CSI NY came on at 11 PM EST and all the sputtering ceased. I was flipping channels between the US Open (USA HD) and CSI and the sputtering was really bad on CSI...until 11 PM. Right now CSI NY has absolutely no sputtering.

It doesn't look like it's related to the hard drive in the DVR. To my untrained eyes this is bit starving/frame dropping from Directv.

Update:

Watching Spike HD... CSI NY came on at 11 PM EST and all the sputtering ceased. I was flipping channels between the US Open (USA HD) and CSI and the sputtering was really bad on CSI...until 11 PM. Right now CSI NY has absolutely no sputtering.

It doesn't look like it's related to the hard drive in the DVR. To my untrained eyes this is bit starving/frame dropping from Directv.

Agreed, Im not seeing it on the 11PM CSINY on Spike.. Enjoy it while it lasts..

There is no doubt that someone, somewhere is messing with frame rates or something. I have 4 DirecTV receivers connected to 4 high quality TVs and TNT for instance is punishment to watch. Possibly A&E is also affected. My wife watches a lot of reality shows and she never noticed the problem until I pointed it out. This problem will be noticable by anyone with a high quality TV. I just hope the practice is in breach of FCC guidelines, because then there will be a chance that a powerful force will step in and cease this garbage. I paid for HDTV and many so-called HD channels are far from HD. Not all DirecTV HD channels have this problem, but there is no doubt in my mind that the 'junk' channels are being messed with. The broadcasters or whoever, reckon that Joe Sixpack won't notice.

There is no doubt that someone, somewhere is messing with frame rates or something. I have 4 DirecTV receivers connected to 4 high quality TVs and TNT for instance is punishment to watch. Possibly A&E is also affected. My wife watches a lot of reality shows and she never noticed the problem until I pointed it out. This problem will be noticable by anyone with a high quality TV. I just hope the practice is in breach of FCC guidelines, because then there will be a chance that a powerful force will step in and cease this garbage. I paid for HDTV and many so-called HD channels are far from HD. Not all DirecTV HD channels have this problem, but there is no doubt in my mind that the 'junk' channels are being messed with. The broadcasters or whoever, reckon that Joe Sixpack won't notice.

Do the FCC have any say over the technical standards and quality of satellite and cable broadcasts - or just OTA?

Do the FCC have any say over the technical standards and quality of satellite and cable broadcasts - or just OTA?

I honestly don't know. I would bet though, that what they're doing is not fair and I am sure it is about dollars.

Already did that. It also happens (the video stuttering) either straight to the display or through another VP I have.

I suppose the audio pops could be the Integra. I don't really have a way currently of testing that as my pj doesn't have audio capability. A few others have noted the pops as well though.Same here. The stuttering happens regardless of a direct feed or not. Yesterday I tried to watch a move on FX, and it was stutter city. My feed goes like this:

HR20 - Yamaha 1800 receiver - Samsung 750 TV. All via HDMI.

I think its a D* problem, or a source problem. It definitely is not my equipment or anyone elses as it happens on all my boxes and TV's. It also happens on all my moms boxes and TV's. It also happens on all my best friends TV's and boxes.

I think a huge part of the problem is that people are way to quick to blame problems on consumer hardware. If its a problem with equipment than I am looking at 10 HDTV's, 6 D* HD DVR's, and 4 D* non DVRS that are all having the exact same problem. Not...

Also, just for the record, neither my Mom and stepdad, or my best friend recognized it as problem at all until I pointed it out to them. Your average person doesent see these problems. Either that or they do see it and just dont see it as a problem. They see it as thats just the way it is..

Also, if it was an equipment problem, I would think I would be seeing it on all channels, not just Spike and TNT.Exactly. And while Spike and TNT are the worse offenders, it does happen on occasion on other channels, such as FX, which I mentioned before. It will also happen, on occasion, on TBS and USA. But like you said, mostly on TNT and Spike.

The US Open is unwatchable on the HD Tennis Channel at the moment. Coverage changed from USA HD to TCHD at 9 PM EST. The signal is so compressed it looks terrible. No stuttering/droppped frames...it's hardly std tv quality.

Has anyone stated if using a DVR, can you replay it with a stutter (or possible frame loss) in the same exact location as live?

If TBS-HD ever shows anything I can bring myself to watch, I'll compare it between sources.

Has anyone stated if using a DVR, can you replay it with a stutter (or possible frame loss) in the same exact location as live?

If TBS-HD ever shows anything I can bring myself to watch, I'll compare it between sources.Don't know about TBS, but yes, I have recorded CSI on Spike and get the same issues.

Well the Stutter/Sputter fest continues. Watching some college Football today, and noticed a few small glitches on ESPNHD, nothing big. During the commercials I jumped around to see what shows were on (2:45 PST approximately), TNTHD "We were soldiers", a complete stutter mess, no way someone could watch it. FXHD "Firewall" same thing as TNT. USAHD "House", not as bad as the other two, but still pretty ugly. I am sorry, but I am paying for HD THAT WORKS, not this crap. If this continues, much longer, I will be considering other options.

The best thing we can do is keep this thread alive and hope someone notices.

The best thing we can do is keep this thread alive and hope someone notices.Some people over at DBS Talker suggested it is probably the Satellite box. I don't know though, as it happens on various boxes. But if it is not the box, then why do some people seem to have it and others do not? Maybe they just don't see it, although it would be very hard to miss what I saw today. My other problem with it being hardware related is I can see it on each of my various boxes, at least on TNT. That includes TNT HD and TNT SD. Haven't tested the other channels.