After years of joy from my "Mid-Fi" system, I think I will need to make a more substatial investment to cure this case. You see, I have been in, and critically listened to many high end theaters as a video calibrationist but nothing has caused me to think about the upgrade until know. I have learned about the effortless sound of TUBES!! Please consider what I have, and let me know what you would suggest. My budget is not limitless, but I am not looking to cut corners.

Current System:
B&K Reference 20 PreAmp
Parasound HCA-2205A Amplifier
NHT 2.9 L-R
NHT HDP-2 Rear
NHT AudioCenter-2
Velodyne VA-1210 & NHT SW10 & MA-1A Amp
My speakers must be within 6" of the back wall, and 80" apart.

What I heard - Coincident Super Eclipse & Manley Neo-Classic combination that clearly opened my ears to things I had never heard before.

What I loved - how "Airy" the sound was. More light - detailed extension at the top end, which appeared as significantly more depth of sound than I have heard in the past. "Fast" is another word I would use, to describe how quick and clean the sound "appeared" in the room. I heard interviews and could CLEARLY tell the differences in microphone placement on each individual. I have an OK ear, but I have always respected those who can quickly identify a guitar just by the sound. With this two channel system, it was clear to me how you could do this. I could not easily identify different guitars in a particular recording in my current system.

What I want - To get this level of high end extension and added detail into my HomeTheater system. I am willing to replace Speakers, Amp, and PreAmp. I need a HDMI - TrueHD audio capable preamp, so now is the time!

I am really interested in buying the AMP used. I believe I can not use Tubes, but if that is the only way to get this experience, maybe I must...

What would you suggest I consider???

What's your budget???? How important is two channel or multi-channel music vs simply movies and tv stuff?

Good to hear from you Steve!

Budget =
PreAmp - NEW: $7500
AMP - 5 Channels, USED $4-6K
Speakers - L/C/R: $4-10K
Rear - L/R: $1-3K
Sub - Single: $2K

Total: $20-22K

Considering and seeking opinions on:
Preamp: Anthem D2/50, B&K Ref-70, Krell S1000, Integra 9.8, Theta CBIII, Denon AVP-A1HDCI.

AMP: Used - EAD-PM2000, Anthem P5, Krell Theater Standard, Classe 5100, Bryston 9Bsst, Lexicon LX-5, and many many more.

Speakers: This is where I am most lost, and need recommendations so I can go listen. My speaker choice will somewhat drive my AMP choice, so this is really what should come first.

Simply put, if you lost your theater, and had to replace, where would you start.

Budget = $20K or so... Would LOVE for it to be less :D

the Coincident/Manley combo is a special one indeed. I heard this back at CES a few years ago and it stuck out in my mind as a truly musical combination. I've owned the Manley Neo's as well and they are a hell of an amplifier especially in Triode mode. Go for it! What was the front end/preamp you heard this combo with btw?

Also, why wouldn't you consider the gear that you heard and liked so much in your list of possible equipment? I think you could do it in your budget if you're willing to go used on audiogon for some or all of it. In my experience nothing matches tube amplification for realistic sound reproduction, although some might say it is colored and "distorted" and they may be technically correct but I've never heard horns sound so realistic as through the NeoClassics. The sense of bloom and air as hearing horns in real life was better than any other amplifier I've owned (which is a lot). I've used tubes in HT and there's no reason you shouldn't consdier them as long as your speakers are efficient, which the Coincidents are (98db or so I believe)...

Any reason why you want to drop that kind of money on a pre-amp? I would get a much cheaper pre-amp and put more money on the speakers.

jbryngelson, if you want to go all out get the denon or you could spend a fraction of that on a integra/onkyo 9.8/885 or even wait for the new integra/onkyo processors.

Hi Jeff, Great talking with you!!
To get my thoughts out there:
vandersteen for speakers, look at which models appeal to you
Amps: McCormack, look for his DNA series and have him modifiy them www.SMCaudio.com
prepro---good luck, tough to say now. Live with the current intergra 9.8 or its replacement and enjoy!

Amps: McCormack, look for his DNA series and have him modifiy them www.SMCaudio.com

Watch out for the snake oil, like the Carbon Siltech Wiring Transformation.

How important is two channel or multi-channel music vs simply movies and tv stuff?


If two channel ain't that important:

The Integra 9.8 preamp/processor, or the new one soon coming out, are great performing and a great bargain pricewise. The Denon preamp/processor is likely a bit better performing but given your price point of gear question if you can hear the difference for the price.

Mark Burnstein has had a 9.8 sitting in a box for many months now. You should borrow his and try it out. HA!!! Come on, Mark, help a fellow Michiganer!!!

Of course Theta CB3, which will upgradeable for HDMI 1.3 audio when to be announced, is even better - but a lot more money and at your price point, I think you're better off getting the Integra and putting your money into other stuff.

I luv my Theta Enterprise monoblocks. Too bad you didn't get in on last summer's half price promotion deal. But they are great amps and frankly, they have the transparency of tubes yet the best of solid state in bass!

Hey Steve, The integra is out of the box. Sitting above meridian gear. Unplugged and no sources connected--yet. i want to get the latest firmware loaded to protect against that DTS MA glitch!

Of course Theta CB3, which will upgradeable for HDMI 1.3 audio when to be announced, is even better

Are you saying that it will be better then the integra/denon processors?

Are you saying that it will be better then the integra/denon processors?

What I hear and what you Mr. IT ALL SOUNDS THE SAME isn't worth discussing with you.:D

Let folks conclude, especially if they have Theta's Extreme DACs and Theta's analog volume control, whether in a high resolution audio system they can hear the difference. They don't need to depend on my ears. Or especially on your low resolution brain-ear opinion. HA!

But you've gotta have the room and gear sufficient to hear the improvement. In many systems its not worth the money. Given that Jeff wants a 20 grand limit, I think he's better off with the Integra in his system and using the rest of the money for amps, speakers, etc.

Hey Steve, The integra is out of the box. Sitting above meridian gear. Unplugged and no sources connected--yet. i want to get the latest firmware loaded to protect against that DTS MA glitch!

Use a reasonably working Windows XP PC and the upgrade should go fine for the main firmware which you do by a PC with a 232 connection to the 9.8.

The DSP upgrade you do via loading it onto a CD-R and then playing it in your CD player connected to the 9.8 by optical input 1.

Mark is so full of excuses. He was too lazy to take the 9.8 out of the box till the other day.

Mark, you might as well let Jeff borrow and test drive the 9.8 on the condition that he update the firmware and DSP. HA!

Mark,

I'm pretty sure the DTS MA glitch is only New Line titles..

I would look into a Theta Dreadnaught for amplification. It gives you the multi channel you need, and it offers much of the air and musicality Steve mentions about the Enterprises.
Mark notes the Vandersteen's, and we have had great success with these. A pair of 3a Signatures mated with a pair of VSM's for surround and a VCC-5 center would make a nice set. Substituting a pair of Quatro's for the
3a would be even better. The Dreadnaught is synergistic with the Vandersteen's as well. They make nice subs also, but the emphasis here is musical rather than slam. For an LFE sub the choices are open to your remaining budget.
The Integra pre/pro lets the rest of this fall into place nicely budget wise. Regards, Norm

I had Upgraditis. My Doctor told me to turn my head and cough... Now I am afraid to even think about new equipment!

After years of joy from my "Mid-Fi" system, I think I will need to make a more substatial investment to cure this case. You see, I have been in, and critically listened to many high end theaters as a video calibrationist but nothing has caused me to think about the upgrade until know. I have learned about the effortless sound of TUBES!! Please consider what I have, and let me know what you would suggest. My budget is not limitless, but I am not looking to cut corners.

Current System:
B&K Reference 20 PreAmp
Parasound HCA-2205A Amplifier
NHT 2.9 L-R
NHT HDP-2 Rear
NHT AudioCenter-2
Velodyne VA-1210 & NHT SW10 & MA-1A Amp
My speakers must be within 6" of the back wall, and 80" apart.

What I heard - Coincident Super Eclipse & Manley Neo-Classic combination that clearly opened my ears to things I had never heard before.

What I loved - how "Airy" the sound was. More light - detailed extension at the top end, which appeared as significantly more depth of sound than I have heard in the past. "Fast" is another word I would use, to describe how quick and clean the sound "appeared" in the room. I heard interviews and could CLEARLY tell the differences in microphone placement on each individual. I have an OK ear, but I have always respected those who can quickly identify a guitar just by the sound. With this two channel system, it was clear to me how you could do this. I could not easily identify different guitars in a particular recording in my current system.

What I want - To get this level of high end extension and added detail into my HomeTheater system. I am willing to replace Speakers, Amp, and PreAmp. I need a HDMI - TrueHD audio capable preamp, so now is the time!

I am really interested in buying the AMP used. I believe I can not use Tubes, but if that is the only way to get this experience, maybe I must...

What would you suggest I consider???

IMO and IME, you will get the largest improvement in your setup by having your room acoustically engineered. In addition to that, but not excluding that, I would consider upgrading the speakers, as well as the amps if they are no longer powerful enough to feed your new speakers to the volume levels you enjoy...

I am trying to find my weakest link, and not have to upgrade everything. The NHTs are not perfect, but yet, very good. I wonder if it is my preamp or amp that is getting in the way of full detail and reproduction, so I likely will start there.

Regarding Tubes, It would be difficult from a space standpoint to use Tubes. If I did, it would require a complete speaker change. Not a deal breaker, but like I said, I think I will start with the Amp and PreAmp. I need TrueHD, so I will be making a Preamp Change...

Thanks. I will consider the Manley-Coincident as a candidate.

Jeff

IMO and IME, you will get the largest improvement in your setup by having your room acoustically engineered. In addition to that, but not excluding that, I would consider upgrading the speakers, as well as the amps if they are no longer powerful enough to feed your new speakers to the volume levels you enjoy...

I think you are onto another solid improvement, the acoustical treatment, but much of my room is designed for good acoustics already. My amp certianly is not lacking in power (225w of John Curl designed HIGH Current). I agree, an AMP change may give me what I am looking for in full upper spectrum detail. I alwo will change my PreAmp, as I yearn for TrueHD audio in my fine multichannel system. If changes to these two do not produce the right results, then it is off to speakerland... I like the Vandy recommendation.

I will stay away from snake oil claims, but Steve McCormack is certianly respected in the industry, so IF I can find a couple of DNA amps, I likely will buy and let him tinker..

In the mean time, I am reading, and reading, and getting ready to go Listen, and Listen.

Thanks Everyone! Keep the Ideas coming!

Jeff in Detroit.

Hey Steve, The integra is out of the box. Sitting above meridian gear. Unplugged and no sources connected--yet. i want to get the latest firmware loaded to protect against that DTS MA glitch!

Mark:

I would love the chance to put the 9.8 in my chain to see if it helps my overall presentation. I would happily get it upgraded for you my friend!

I will call you next week when I get back from Chicago to see if we can work something out.

Jeff

My amp certianly is not lacking in power (225w of John Curl designed HIGH Current).

I suggested an amp change only if you buy new speakers that require more power to reach your normal listening levels without distortion. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother changing amps...

If your room was acoustically engineered by an acoustic professional already, then I would focus on quality speakers with an engineering pedigree. I would also have the acoustical professional find the best placement in the room for the speakers, or at least let the person EQ out the speaker placement compromises...

Mark:

I would love the chance to put the 9.8 in my chain to see if it helps my overall presentation. I would happily get it upgraded for you my friend!

I will call you next week when I get back from Chicago to see if we can work something out.

Jeff

It was sure nice of Mark to offer.

Jeff, be sure to break the 9.8 in a good 100-200 hours. You will hear the sonics improve!!!

Mark, how much is my "broker" commission? HA!!

Let folks conclude, especially if they have Theta's Extreme DACs

They do not use "special" or better DAC's so what is your point?

and Theta's analog volume control,

The funny thing is their analog volume control is not that accurate and to have certain channels out by .5 or more of a db would be common.

or amp that is getting in the way of full detail and reproduction,

An amp will only make a difference if you need more power or properly driving the load of the speaker.

Jeff, be sure to break the 9.8 in a good 100-200 hours. You will hear the sonics improve!!!

I hope you are kidding about this.

Are you now suggesting that all DAC's are the same?

They do not use "special" or better DAC's so what is your point?



The funny thing is their analog volume control is not that accurate and to have certain channels out by .5 or more of a db would be common.



An amp will only make a difference if you need more power or properly driving the load of the speaker.



I hope you are kidding about this.
I think you need a new 3rd Moniker, why don't you call yourself "Julian Hirsch."

In what kind of way will a amp sound better after 200 hours?

Are you now suggesting that all DAC's are the same?

DAC's are easily measurable and since theta does not run "special" DAC's over other manufacturers why would theta be better?

I think you need a new 3rd Moniker, why don't you call yourself "Julian Hirsch."

So you don't follow what is measurable and proven but more of what you think can and can not make a difference?

In what kind of way will a amp sound better after 200 hours?

I agree, anytime someone talks about "break in" I get a good laugh.

Yes, DAC's are easily measureable, but since DAC is a catch phrase for both a chip and a SOFTWARE implementation around said chip that can vary greatly based upon the entire hardware package and th............


What the F am i doing.

YOu are a nit!

Done deal!

In what kind of way will a amp sound better after 200 hours?

Do a web search on the definition of "better" and pick your poison. HA!

But yea I've experienced sonic break-in. Ridicule me, please. Make my day!!@@:D

Guys, I really did not want to "Start Something" like the above posts. I am looking for recommendations of High-End (Per my budget) Amps, Speakers, and the latest HDMI capable PreAmps.

Ideas??

Yes, DAC's are easily measureable, but since DAC is a catch phrase for both a chip and a SOFTWARE implementation around said chip that can vary greatly based upon the entire hardware package and th............

So theta does not run any "better" DAC's but they do not run their custom software anymore, right? Someone said with a very early DAC they ran their own software but that was about it. And even at that who would right better software, a small team from theta or a huge engineering team the also designs the DAC/receiver?

But yea I've experienced sonic break-in. Ridicule me, please. Make my day!!@@

And do you also think cables make a difference. There you go, people who think break in makes a sonic impact in audio equipment also thinks that theta some how makes a better sounding DAC over everyone else.

And even at that who would right better software, a small team from theta or a huge engineering team the also designs the DAC/receiver?

You obviously know little about programming and engineering...

Are you kidding, he knows everything about CE product design and development.

He knows very little about most things :)

not about being a loud mouth knowitall

What a great way to kill a thread.

Ok,

If I had to do a 5 channel , I would look at a used Pass amp, preferably one of the .5 upgrades. Great value. Speakers would dictate 2.5 or 3.5.

Spend as much as possible on the speakers. This should be your focus, and please take a listen. I love my Aerial 9s. Lr5 rear channel.

Preamp, go with the Integra. There is no reason to spend 7.5k here, but if you must Classe has a new ssp-800 that sounds interesting, although no listen here.

Sub, no doubt go with a 112,113 fathom. Very musical and powerful.

That should get it done. Good luck.

Paul

What a great way to kill a thread.

Yea, that dude DougWinsor has been banned, banned and banned, using several other alias, but let back in, back in, back in.

Controversy sells. Ask McCain and Obama. The press doesn't carry you until you attack, attack, attack. That dude sells more advertising for AVS than the rest of us combined!!!@@@

(I am being bad. If you believe all this, except the stuff re the dude is true, then Mark Haflich is the totally oversex tryster that he claims to be.)

You obviously know little about programming and engineering...

I do and I have not yet seen anything "better" coming from theta.

Yea, that dude DougWinsor has been banned, banned and banned, using several other alias, but let back in, back in, back in.

For asking questions, so far I see nothing but you assuming everything about theta and not backing anything up.

I do and I have not yet seen anything "better" coming from theta.

Oh? What is your engineering and programming background? Throwing up on an Engineer at a bar doesn't count...

Not that your background matters, since I've seen barely intelligent people manage to get Engineering and Computer Science degrees. That of course was part of my point as to why what you said previously was uninformed and naive...

I do and I have not yet seen anything "better" coming from theta.



For asking questions, so far I see nothing but you assuming everything about theta and not backing anything up.

Oh! I'm sorry, wrong door, I didn't know this was the Theta Thread. Goodbye.

Oh? What is your engineering and programming background? Throwing up on an Engineer at a bar doesn't count...

Not that your background matters, since I've seen barely intelligent people manage to get Engineering and Computer Science degrees. That of course was part of my point as to why what you said previously was uninformed and naive...

So far I have seen nothing but assumptions of theta products so until one can say this is why theta is better my questions still stand. We are now going beyond assumptions with a new theta product that is not even out.

So far I have seen nothing but assumptions of theta products so until one can say this is why theta is better my questions still stand. We are now going beyond assumptions with a new theta product that is not even out.

Nice avoidance of the question... For someone who criticizes others for making assumptions, you certainly are full of assumptions yourself; including your assumptions about the engineering and programming teams at different companies, something you know absolutely nothing about... :rolleyes:
:D

You bore me. Come back when you have something interesting to say.

Nice avoidance of the question... For someone who criticizes others for making assumptions, you certainly are full of assumptions yourself; including your assumptions about the engineering and programming teams at different companies, something you know absolutely nothing about...

We already has a theta user state that theta use to write their own software way back in the day but no longer. You keep saying that theta uses something that everyone is missing out and that is what make theta "better" and you believe this becuase you want to.

http://www.stereophile.com/news/10221/

Theta has used burr brown 1704's.

http://www.smr-archive.com/forum_4/messages/560.shtml

Burr brown 1716.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_4/theta-casablanca-2-processor-10-2001.html

And even delta sigma.

http://www.thetadigital.com/press-release/premium-dac-01-07.htm

Theta's own web site states "It has a Burr Brown 24/192 DAC," so where are these "special" DAC's that only theta uses?

http://www.stereophile.com/news/10221/

Theta has used burr brown 1704's.

http://www.smr-archive.com/forum_4/messages/560.shtml

Burr brown 1716.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_4/theta-casablanca-2-processor-10-2001.html

And even delta sigma.

http://www.thetadigital.com/press-release/premium-dac-01-07.htm

Theta's own web site states "It has a Burr Brown 24/192 DAC," so where are these "special" DAC's that only theta uses?

I do not know how much theta charges for this ******** but the dac in question can be bought here

http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Msid=59500000&Mkw=PCM1609APT


And it only cost 6.40. Burr Brown is now TI. A fool and his money......

You keep saying that theta uses something that everyone is missing out and that is what make theta "better" and you believe this becuase you want to.

Oh, when did I say that? I just think you are not as intelligent as you like to think.

Now you are claiming to be psychic as well... You have no idea what I think about this issue. Just because I am questioning your assumptions and reasonings doesn't mean I don't agree with your initial point. Perhaps I just don't like you! You're almost as desperate as that dopey guy from Vegas who home brews his own "Myth Busters" videos... :rolleyes:

What a great way to kill a thread.


I ask again, why do you put so much money on a pre-amp and so much less on the speakers?

If I had to do a 5 channel , I would look at a used Pass amp, preferably one of the .5 upgrades. Great value. Speakers would dictate 2.5 or 3.5.

I have done some reading on the Pass amps and will do some more research. I find it interesting that I see them in ad photos with tube amps sitting next to them. Good sign!

Spend as much as possible on the speakers. This should be your focus, and please take a listen. I love my Aerial 9s. Lr5 rear channel.

The golden rule of building a good system! I forgot about the Aerial's. I know MANY people have put them into their systems, and I will get a listen soon!

I am anxious to put the Integra "Test" box from Mark Burnstien into my system, to see if it cleans up my sound, or keeps it the same as my current B&K. It certianly sounds like a winner, but at $1800 - I am worried I will be arrested for such a steal!

I ask again, why do you put so much money on a pre-amp and so much less on the speakers?

My appoligies for not responding earlier... Simply put, I want to audition the Integra, and a couple of the $3500-7500 HDMI, TrueHD Audio preamps, to see if this is the weakest link component. I will admit, I am somewhat "married" to many of the components in my system, and would like the one bullet, one kill solution to my goal. However, I am willing to part with all of my legacy components if I can achieve my goals in a new system.

My gut tells me that the Integra will end up being my Theater PreAmp, but I will keep an open mind to the Krell, Anthem, and other solutions that are reasonable (Sub $7500). If I go the Integra route, it gives me back LOTS of budget, and that is a good thing!

Now for the short answer. I do not want to spend that much.

Oh, and one more thing - My goal requires a new Preamp, but not new speakers, or amp. To get TrueHD audio, I must get a new preamp, so that is why I am willing to spend, spend, spend if it gets me the sound I am looking for in my system.

UPDATE: My friend with the Coincedent/Manley combination was kind enough to open his system to some testing last night. I have an engineering mind, so I approach my quest in a troubleshooting mindset, and thought - Lets try individual components to see if they are at fault in keeping me from audio nirvana.

He allowed me to bring over my Parasound HCA-2205AT amplifier, and put it into his system to drive his Coincident speakers.

We started by listening to a couple of the DVDs that really caught my ear. The Eagles Hell Freezes over, is kinda like a test DVD for me. The DTS intro, the interviews with the band members and their reunion, and finally Hotel California (opening song). After finding the points I was not hearing in my system, (Lack of high end detail or depth, a STRENGTH in midrange in the male vocals, and a wide full sound stage), we disconnected the Manley's and put the Parasound into the chain.

The Parasound IMMEDIATLY sounded different. We had only listened to 60 seconds of the DVD, and we both looked at each other, and I said 2 dimensional, and he said - FLAT! It was far to quick of a reaction, and we listened to much more, but the end conclusion, is the Parasound sound lacked the 3 demensionality (SP?) of the Manleys on his speakers. We both expected a better bottom end from the Parasound, but actually, the Manley's vs the Parasound were very, very comperable. The tightness of the bass on the Parasound was possibly the one advantage, but again, even in bass, the Manley seemed to have more presence and demensionality over the bottom end of the Parasound.

Our next step is to bring the Manley amps over to my theater, and A/B between the Parasound and Manley configuration in my room, with my speakers and preamp. If the results are nearly the same, then my quest is nearing a conclusion.

I must replace my B&K PreAmp, as I want TrueHD audio, for the best in multichannel audio. I then will have to decide on a new amplifier to drive my system, as I now know what is available in sound from an amplifier.

My hunt for new speakers can wait for another day, but it looks like the electronics will be my focus - for NOW.

Now to my hunt for Amplifers. I would like to put GREAT amps into my system for all channels, but would be willing to seperate the spend and put 75% of the money on my LCR, and 25% on my rear. It is important to me to have the same family or series of amplifiers driving my front. Three Monos, a Three Channel version of the amp, or a stereo amp, with a "Family" member mono to drive the center. If I found a 5-channel, that would be great too, but I would like to keep my spend for the amp change below 6K.

Here is what I believe may give me the TUBE experience but in a solid state amp:
PASS - X series, maybe XA series??
McCormack - DNA series
BAT - 6022?? http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1223259759&/BAT-VK-6200-Priced-to-sell!
They seem to have one foot in Tubeland, so ....

Thanks for joining me on this quest.

PLEASE TAKE ALL DEBATES AND NAME CALLING TO ANOTHER THREAD. THIS THREAD IS RESERVED FOR ASSISTANCE TO AN AUDIO UPGRADE QUEST.

Thank you. Let us no return to the thread..

The Parasound IMMEDIATLY sounded different.

Did you rematch the output levels of the amps within 1 percent? You would be surprised what kind of audible differences a slight level difference can make.

--Andre

Oh, when did I say that? I just think you are not as intelligent as you like to think.

Now you are claiming to be psychic as well... You have no idea what I think about this issue. Just because I am questioning your assumptions and reasonings doesn't mean I don't agree with your initial point. Perhaps I just don't like you! You're almost as desperate as that dopey guy from Vegas who home brews his own "Myth Busters" videos... :rolleyes:

Hi Q, that was a uncalled for personal shot. You have been reported. AGAIN. And I did exactly what was asked of me by the folks for and against the noise harvester. I bought one and tested it. And proved it does nothing to help the sound.

UPDATE: My friend with the Coincedent/Manley combination was kind enough to open his system to some testing last night. I have an engineering mind, so I approach my quest in a troubleshooting mindset, and thought - Lets try individual components to see if they are at fault in keeping me from audio nirvana.

He allowed me to bring over my Parasound HCA-2205AT amplifier, and put it into his system to drive his Coincident speakers.

We started by listening to a couple of the DVDs that really caught my ear. The Eagles Hell Freezes over, is kinda like a test DVD for me. The DTS intro, the interviews with the band members and their reunion, and finally Hotel California (opening song). After finding the points I was not hearing in my system, (Lack of high end detail or depth, a STRENGTH in midrange in the male vocals, and a wide full sound stage), we disconnected the Manley's and put the Parasound into the chain.

The Parasound IMMEDIATLY sounded different. We had only listened to 60 seconds of the DVD, and we both looked at each other, and I said 2 dimensional, and he said - FLAT! It was far to quick of a reaction, and we listened to much more, but the end conclusion, is the Parasound sound lacked the 3 demensionality (SP?) of the Manleys on his speakers. We both expected a better bottom end from the Parasound, but actually, the Manley's vs the Parasound were very, very comperable. The tightness of the bass on the Parasound was possibly the one advantage, but again, even in bass, the Manley seemed to have more presence and demensionality over the bottom end of the Parasound.



Have you thought about looking into any of the Parasound Halo series? They are a step above the regular Parasound. But then, they also may be out of your budget range.

Hi Q, that was a uncalled for personal shot. You have been reported. AGAIN. And I did exactly what was asked of me by the folks for and against the noise harvester. I bought one and tested it. And proved it does nothing to help the sound.

What makes you think I was talking about you? :confused:

Who reports someone? That's so elementary school. Work it out boys.....

Who reports someone? That's so elementary school. Work it out boys.....

That happens all the time around here since people take things personally when you question their blind devotion to a product.

Reporting people around here should happen more often when all they do is de-rail a thread with a bunch of Off Topic B.S. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to really do any good. The B.S. just goes on, and on, and on...

Who reports someone? That's so elementary school. Work it out boys.....



Well it is exactly what the mods ask for. They have asked if folks turn to a personal attack that they be notified. That way it does not degrade into a thread full of name calling and cheap shots.I could take it that way against Q but I do not think that is what we want here. So thanks for derailing the thread even further.


Now back to the fact that the OP has X amount to spend but would still like to pay less. If folks want to hang hats on the fact that DACs may sound different, and that the DAC is what makes the gear.Then look at the FACT that the Theta dacs cost 6.40. And that maybe just maybe a product that costs much less uses just as great a DAC. So the OP can save a ton of money to spend on room treatments and things that matter.

Well it is exactly what the mods ask for. They have asked if folks turn to a personal attack that they be notified. That way it does not degrade into a thread full of name calling and cheap shots.I could take it that way against Q but I do not think that is what we want here. So thanks for derailing the thread even further.

You are forgetting one thing. I didn't make a personal attack against you. I think you are suffering from an over-active imagination...

Well it is exactly what the mods ask for. They have asked if folks turn to a personal attack that they be notified. That way it does not degrade into a thread full of name calling and cheap shots.I could take it that way against Q but I do not think that is what we want here. So thanks for derailing the thread even further.


Now back to the fact that the OP has X amount to spend but would still like to pay less. If folks want to hang hats on the fact that DACs may sound different, and that the DAC is what makes the gear.Then look at the FACT that the Theta dacs cost 6.40. And that maybe just maybe a product that costs much less uses just as great a DAC. So the OP can save a ton of money to spend on room treatments and things that matter.
It's simple thinking to say just because the BB DA chip is the same that the overall DAC solution will sound the same. Theta's DACs are a lot more than just a Burr Brown circuit. Regards, Norm

It's simple thinking to say just because the BB DA chip is the same that the overall DAC solution will sound the same. Theta's DACs are a lot more than just a Burr Brown circuit. Regards, Norm

Really? Please show us what they are then. You can not just make a statement like that with out backing it up. Otherwise it is just opinion.

Current System:
B&K Reference 20 PreAmp
Parasound HCA-2205A Amplifier
NHT 2.9 L-R
NHT HDP-2 Rear
NHT AudioCenter-2
Velodyne VA-1210 & NHT SW10 & MA-1A Amp
My speakers must be within 6" of the back wall, and 80" apart.



What I want - To get this level of high end extension and added detail into my HomeTheater system. I am willing to replace Speakers, Amp, and PreAmp. I need a HDMI - TrueHD audio capable preamp, so now is the time!

I am really interested in buying the AMP used. I believe I can not use Tubes, but if that is the only way to get this experience, maybe I must...

What would you suggest I consider???


Why not just look at a pre that has HDMI that does not break the bank. My guess is that many of the systems you have heard are well treated and shaped rooms as well. Spend the time and money in that.Unless your speakers and current amps are busted not working etc. Do not replace them without doing updated and correct room work otherwise you are pissing in the wind.

Really? Please show us what they are then. You can not just make a statement like that with out backing it up. Otherwise it is just opinion.
Theta's DACs are far from off the shelf units. Theta's Digital Processing Suite is proprietary software which uses noise shaping and dither to increase dynamic range and reduce quantizing error. By using new dither calculations Theta creates perfectly random noise which results in better decorrelation. This also allows information below the theoretical digital noise floor to be reproduced. This of course is all in addition to the outstanding analogue output stage Theta institutes in their DACs. Regards, Norm

Theta's DACs are far from off the shelf units. Theta's Digital Processing Suite is proprietary software which uses noise shaping and dither to increase dynamic range and reduce quantizing error. By using new dither calculations Theta creates perfectly random noise which results in better decorrelation. This also allows information below the theoretical digital noise floor to be reproduced. This of course is all in addition to the outstanding analogue output stage Theta institutes in their DACs. Regards, Norm

Norm, you are preaching to a brick wall, when it comes to Speco or Winsor.
And of course the proof is in the subjective hearing and enjoyment.

More seriously, the new high resolution audio formats prove that less expensive gear with higher resolution DACs at least for movies sound great and better than more expensive gear with better sounding but lower resolution audio source material.

So of course I am very intrigued when Theta has the upgrade package ready (where the new high resolution audio formats will use my Theta CB3 Extreme DACs) to compare to my and your current combo (where the new high resolution audio formats are decoded in an Integra 9.8 preamp processor and then multi-channel analog out to my Theta Six Shooter, volume controlled analog wise by my CB3).

To those who it all sounds the same to nothing anyone says, even if technically sensible to an audio engineer, will make any sense to them!!!:D

But it remains true that thanks to the new high resolution audio formats, you can get awful good Blu Ray sonics just using like the Integra preamp. Scary to think what we may hear with the upcoming Theta CB3 HDMI 1.3 audio upgrade. But no matter what we hear, we will be accused of "hearing things". So what? What counts is our enjoyment, not arguing with trolls!!

Norm, you are preaching to a brick wall, when it comes to Speco or Winsor.
And of course the proof is in the subjective hearing and enjoyment.

More seriously, the new high resolution audio formats prove that less expensive gear with higher resolution DACs at least for movies sound great and better than more expensive gear with better sounding but lower resolution audio source material.

So of course I am very intrigued when Theta has the upgrade package ready (where the new high resolution audio formats will use my Theta CB3 Extreme DACs) to compare to my and your current combo (where the new high resolution audio formats are decoded in an Integra 9.8 preamp processor and then multi-channel analog out to my Theta Six Shooter, volume controlled analog wise by my CB3).


To those who it all sounds the same to nothing anyone says, even if technically sensible to an audio engineer, will make any sense to them!!!:D

But it remains true that thanks to the new high resolution audio formats, you can get awful good Blu Ray sonics just using like the Integra preamp. Scary to think what we may hear with the upcoming Theta CB3 HDMI 1.3 audio upgrade. But no matter what we hear, we will be accused of "hearing things". So what? What counts is our enjoyment, not arguing with trolls!!
Steve, you're right, of course, but once in a while I just have to reiterate that the Earth isn't flat. Regards, Norm

It's simple thinking to say just because the BB DA chip is the same that the overall DAC solution will sound the same. Theta's DACs are a lot more than just a Burr Brown circuit. Regards, Norm


Really? In what way? Like the rebadged laserdisc player they had many years ago?

If you want to debate DACs or the quality of various Manufactures, please start your own threads. There are a number of AVS forums to do that in, not to mention other internet forums.

I am looking for real life experiences with Pre-Pros, Amps, and Speakers that are Hi-End.

I am not looking to referee a thread. GO START YOUR OWN (You too Steve).

My room is not acusticly perfect, but not a problem room. It was designed that way. I know it is a critical piece to overall sound, and I put effort into that 10yrs ago. What I am hearing in other systems, is coming right off the speakers and is less about the room.

I now know that much of what I am looking for is Manley-Tube related, and I would like to find a replacement for my AMP that gives me some of this sound. We used the word "Sparkle", but not harsh while listening the other day.

Please - Back on target. Take the school yard crap elsewhere.

Jeff, looking back through your original post, one thing I see that I think is killing you on achieving that 'airy sound' you're talking about, is the limiting distance from the walls with your main speakers. 6 inches is just too close. You have to get the speakers further out in the room to start getting the large, airy, sound stage your looking for. Try this with your current setup. I think you will surprised with the results. For an example: My room is 22.5 x 16 x 10. The front baffles on my mains are 4' from the side walls, and 5.5' from the front wall, and are a little over 8 feet apart.

By using new dither calculations Theta creates perfectly random noise which results in better decorrelation. This also allows information below the theoretical digital noise floor to be reproduced.

If what you're saying is true, then Theta's previous dither algorithm was broken. Creating dither that is perfectly decorrelated from the signal is well-known and fairly straightforward. It's amazing how some companies will trumpet run-of-the-mill correct implementation as some kind of wonderful breakthrough, but I suppose if you're in an industry populated by mostly incompetent designers, that is some kind of victory.

--Andre

If what you're saying is true, then Theta's previous dither algorithm was broken. Creating dither that is perfectly decorrelated from the signal is well-known and fairly straightforward. It's amazing how some companies will trumpet run-of-the-mill correct implementation as some kind of wonderful breakthrough, but I suppose if you're in an industry populated by mostly incompetent designers, that is some kind of victory.

--Andre

Who invited you to debate DACs....

This is so annoying. Start our own !#$%^&* DAC - Engineer thread.

Jeff, looking back through your original post, one thing I see that I think is killing you on achieving that 'airy sound' you're talking about, is the limiting distance from the walls with your main speakers. 6 inches is just too close. You have to get the speakers further out in the room to start getting the large, airy, sound stage your looking for. Try this with your current setup. I think you will surprised with the results. For an example: My room is 22.5 x 16 x 10. The front baffles on my mains are 4' from the side walls, and 5.5' from the front wall, and are a little over 8 feet apart.

Good catch. I have heard this tip many times when talking to people with good ears. I will try it tomorrow, as I have some time to play with the system, and see what I can hear with them out another 6" (12" total). The NHT 2.9s have an angled face to them, so there seems to be no reason to play with toe in on them, but maybe I should...

Thanks again. What is your system consist of? If you were to replace your amp, which would it be, and why?

Good catch. I have heard this tip many times when talking to people with good ears. I will try it tomorrow, as I have some time to play with the system, and see what I can hear with them out another 6" (12" total). The NHT 2.9s have an angled face to them, so there seems to be no reason to play with toe in on them, but maybe I should...

Thanks again. What is your system consist of? If you were to replace your amp, which would it be, and why?


Keep in mind that in audio, as in most things, there are trade offs. By moving your speakers out into the room, you will achieve a much larger soundstage and spaciousness. But you will lose some Bass support. Finding the right balance can be both time consuming and tedious. But it can also be a lot of fun! Also, don't be afraid to play around with your main seating position as well. Remember the 'golden triangle'. It's also a good idea to use masking tape to mark positions that you find favorable. So you can get back to that position as you move stuff around.

As far as your question about my amps. I'm using a pair of Parasound Halo JC-1 Mono Blocks on the mains. And I'm quite happy with the way they sound, and their ability to handle pretty much anything I can throw at them. They replaced a McIntosh MC-500 a couple of years ago. And the difference in sound wasn't subtle.

You can see what all my gear is by looking at my AVS profile. I used to have a Web Page with pictures. But that acount is no longer active. I will eventually put together another Web Page, but just haven't got around to it.

Who invited you to debate DACs....

This is so annoying. Start our own !#$%^&* DAC - Engineer thread.

I apologize --- I posted before reading your post.

Since you have 2.9s, you should know that there is a correct way to set them up related to the angle of their faces --- that's been discussed in AVS, and is also in the speakers' manual. If you're worried about losing bass as Rutgar mentions when you set them up for good imaging, the 2.9s can also be biamped to make up for some of that.

Maybe Alimental will chime in with some useful suggestions.

--Andre

Jeff,

If you want the Integra preamp/processor for home theater,
here's a used Onkyo Pro model (its the same, I think it has a bit more features even) for sale by an AVS member:


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=6722

Reporting people around here should happen more often when all they do is de-rail a thread with a bunch of Off Topic B.S. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to really do any good. The B.S. just goes on, and on, and on...

So when we question a product instead of just assuming that makes you mad?

Now back to the fact that the OP has X amount to spend but would still like to pay less. If folks want to hang hats on the fact that DACs may sound different, and that the DAC is what makes the gear.Then look at the FACT that the Theta dacs cost 6.40. And that maybe just maybe a product that costs much less uses just as great a DAC. So the OP can save a ton of money to spend on room treatments and things that matter.

I saw this coming "but" theta uses the special 6.40 DAC's.

It's simple thinking to say just because the BB DA chip is the same that the overall DAC solution will sound the same. Theta's DACs are a lot more than just a Burr Brown circuit. Regards, Norm

More assumptions.

Theta's DACs are far from off the shelf units. Theta's Digital Processing Suite is proprietary software which uses noise shaping and dither to increase dynamic range and reduce quantizing error. By using new dither calculations Theta creates perfectly random noise which results in better decorrelation. This also allows information below the theoretical digital noise floor to be reproduced. This of course is all in addition to the outstanding analogue output stage Theta institutes in their DACs. Regards, Norm

Really, this sounds like you copied it off of theta's site.

If what you're saying is true, then Theta's previous dither algorithm was broken. Creating dither that is perfectly decorrelated from the signal is well-known and fairly straightforward. It's amazing how some companies will trumpet run-of-the-mill correct implementation as some kind of wonderful breakthrough, but I suppose if you're in an industry populated by mostly incompetent designers, that is some kind of victory.

I agree, if one goes into the technical for the basic operation of any product you can make it sound "special" but if everyone else uses it then it does not matter. That is what theta and the theta supporters do.

Theta's DACs are far from off the shelf units. Theta's Digital Processing Suite is proprietary software which uses noise shaping and dither to increase dynamic range and reduce quantizing error. By using new dither calculations Theta creates perfectly random noise which results in better decorrelation. This also allows information below the theoretical digital noise floor to be reproduced. This of course is all in addition to the outstanding analogue output stage Theta institutes in their DACs. Regards, Norm

Instead of copying a reply from theta you should read and understand what you are saying. Noise shaping, only occurs when oversampling is being done and dither is important in the final stages of audio production to compact disc. Then you use quantization error but that only matters in ADC not DAC.