I'm posting this to get some opinions as to how gamers here think videogames as a story telling medium are maturing.

I do think that some games have done a good job (Half-life 2 comes to mind). Although the gamer had to watch the interactions of the NPCs as they went through scripted tasks and conversations, it was done in a way that made me feel as if I was part of the team trying to rid mankind of the Combine scourge. I really did want to protect Alyx (even though she had infinite hit points and I didn't :) ).

I wonder if Oblivion was a good story telling vehicle. I haven't finished it yet and I do truly appreciate the time that the writers have put into the game to give the gamer such a wide diversity of missions, but sometimes I felt I was sorta doing busy work. Enjoyable busy work (I like to explore, so traveling here and there in the world was ok with me), but busy work none-the-less.

This interests me, because this is a most interactive media; more so than books, movies (for the time being-although I think that you can do a bit more with dvds and an internet hook up, in terms of on the spot directors commentary and the like) and music cds. I am excited for the day when you can get a truly deep experience when playing a video game, like you do when you watch a good movie...you lose yourself in the experience.

I'm not asking what games people here think are good story-telling games (although I wouldn't mind hearing some opinions on that as well). What I'm asking is what do you think needs to happen so that videogames can ubiquitously become the de facto story telling medium (or is it even possible)?
I would love to hear from those of you who have backgrounds (even amateur) in the arts-photography, movie making, writing, plays/acting, etc.

I think that more consistent/better writing and better/slicker human machine interface. I don't care as much about production value-to a point. I hear about these killer budgets for Madden etc, and I wonder if the percent increase in the budget equates or exceeds the percent increase in consumer perception of polish. The reason I mention this, is that this post was somewhat prompted by the release of 'Too Human' and all the time (and I presume money) it took to get this out and its somewhat lukewarm reception.

I'd like to hear thoughts from you guys.

I'm not asking what games people here think are good story-telling games (although I wouldn't mind hearing some opinions on that as well). What I'm asking is what do you think needs to happen so that videogames can ubiquitously become the de facto story telling medium (or is it even possible)?

De facto story telling medium, no.
Not going to happen this century, if ever.
After all, neither movies nor TVs have displaced Novels as the default and they've been around over 100 and well over 50 years, respectively.
Storytelling games are what? 20? 30 years old?
And only now starting to develop as a story-telling medium.
(Heck, even TV is still evolving and only recently has it started to approach its full potential.)

Now, are games a good story-telling medium today?
Depends on what you consider "good".
I'd argue that probably not.

The problem is that games are more complex than the pre-existing media (books, movies, TV).
Printed stories revolve around plot, themes and characterization. The narrative is generally built around exposition, description, and dialogue. Movies and TV add sets, viewing angles, transitions, and music.
Narrative games add interactivity, a higher degree of user immersion that the earlier forms, and, most critically, non-linearity.

I'm sure a lot of people will dispute the last point, but as far as I'm concerned, games will not be a truly unique and fully mature story-telling environment until they master non-linearity. That is to say, until they fully coopt the gamer as co-author of the story. Without that level of immersion, games are merely chopped up movies.

From where I sit, your typical jrpg or action game presents a specific story in episodic format (like the old saturday morning cinema serials of the last century) linked by a series of gameplay challenges. The player is expected to master the game challenges before he is rewarded with another snippet of the story. But the story doesn't belong to the gamer, it belongs to the developer and every gamer that masters the challenges experiences essentially the same story. Like a movie or a book.

Games have the potential to do more.
And they should.
Games have the potential to draw gamers into simulated realities, actual worlds where they are not just passive consumers of a common story but co-authors of a unique and personal experience.

Which brings us to Oblivion and Mass Effect and Halo and Bioshock and their like. (And MMOGs.) Regardles of their genre, all these games have to one extent or another blended gameplay and storytelling; the narrative is not divorced from the gameplay. You aren't challenged to take out a series of foes and a Boss before you get to sit down and see another piece of the story because the experience of the gameplay *is* the story. And *my* experience of the story in Oblivion is *never* going to be the same as yours. Probably not even close. The basic plot is the same, many of the events and challenges are common to both playthroughs, but even if we wanted to follow the exact same path through the game and used the exact same tactics, we'd still end up with a unique experience because the game is designed to offer variability.

This is not an easy thing to do.
It goes beyond branching gamer paths and multiple endings; those are merely some of the more primitive tools that go into these early simulation games. There is more to come as gaming AI improves, the games should offer adaptive opponents, dynamic dialogue, and probably even alternate gameplay options. We're seeing hints of this in current-gen games. Hopefully there is more to come.

Oblivion's precursor, Morrowind allowed the gamer to complete the entire game without having to kill anybody except the big bad devil. (I did it, too. Lots of stealing, no killing.) Which is unusual in any game not intended for children. But it shouldn't.
Storytelling games should offer up more than just the same old roles--soldier, sneak, acrobat, etc--and the same old mechanics; shooter, platformer, hack-n-slash...
There is room for more.

The storytelling games we've started to see this century are merely the precursors of things to come and while we can pretty much envision the endpoint of this gaming evolutionary line (there is room for other game breeds, fear not) its going to be a long time before immersive, simulation games deliver anything close to the classic Star Trek Holodeck experience.

Finally, there is one more thing standing in the way of games becoming a serious story-telling medium: they have to grow up and start dealing with something other than over-muscled parodies of stereotype WWF wrestlers-turned-combat-soldiers. :rolleyes:

They need to start dealing with serious themes with a bit more intelectual bite (Bioshock is a good start but its barely wetting its toes in a much deeper ocean) and more emotional depth than just an adrenaline rush at completing a challenge.

You want to see games taken seriously as storytelling? Let's first see a good romantic comedy. A good philosophical drama. Heck, I'd settle for a good caper-flick!

We're a long way from any of those.

Nice topic though.
Wish we saw more of these posts and less "madden sucks!" posts. ;)

^^^ Excellent response, There is hope for truly good, interactive storytelling where the gamer is more than just an audience to the developers ideas. I think a great current-gen example of this is the Sims. I found the game to be a little tedious for my tastes, but I believe it began to border on a game where the player creates the story for the character, rather than merely following along a set path. As previously stated games like Oblivion and Mass Effect are also attempting to move in this direction which I think is great.

One area of story telling that seems to be at the forefront at the moment is the "moral-choices" the player is forced to make. Granted these choices are still the result of an overall linear design, but the dynamic is interesting none the less. It will be great to see what minds much brighter than mine can come up with.

Thank you guys. FJ, you are a very well reasoned poster. I always enjoy reading what you have to say.

Fj, I agree with what you said regarding the topics that developers use as a foundation for their games. If I can diverge slightly, one reason I enjoyed 'Batman Begins' was that Bruce wasn't portrayed as some super bad ass at the beginning of the film. We got to see how a series of external events combined with internal fears made him into the man he became. My point in saying that is that he was for all intents and purposes a regular (but rich :) ) guy, who evolved into something more. Not Marcus Phoenix from the get go.

With the proliferation of consoles and PCs I'm hoping that more Indie developers will start broaching genres that haven't been looked at before.

One hindrance to VGs becoming a great storytelling medium is that the player typically has so much input into the experience that the devs have a hard time balancing everything. Unlike a book or movie (and I would argue that movies have surpassed books as the prime storytelling medium for 80% of folks under 30) which is static and immutable, games are fluid and can vary. While some are linear in that the cutscenes are the same, most games are very limited in exposition by the need to get the player back pushing buttons. Heck, folks can watch the same movie or read the same book and still argue what happened, that increases with VGs. So most VGs either have a very simplistic plot or become so complex that most players just tune it out. Games also have a transient shelf life driven by technology, so unlike movies or books, there is a relatively small window for folks to be exposed to the VG.

I think VGs work best when integrated into a larger system, like what they have done with the Halo series. While each pice should be designed to serve as a stand-alone introduction, the books, comics, and games can all mesh together to be rewarding to the fan. Of course this requires a central bible to maintain internal consistency and plot continuity, but when done well it is a wonderful thing.