all I know is that cheap speakers use fake phase plugs (Aka Dust Caps) and expensive speakers use phase plugs. There is science behind this bullet shaped protrusion...I always thought good speakers were derived from the trickle down effect not vice versa.

I have lived 100% of my life without phase plugs, before today. I would go so far as to say VERY good speakers don't need them at all based on what I've seen/heard. These speakers are for HT and are "OK" IMO. Leave the grilles on and pretend... :)

But I certainly agree in principle that plastic "dust caps" are not nearly as nice looking as the previous metal plugs. One would presume P designed the speakers to work according to a spec/requirement, and the way the drivers are is the "right" way for that spec, with the plastic caps.

Thanks for the replies guys.

At this point, I think I am settled on the 100 v4s over the 60 v5s for their range and the options they provide. The 100s are floor model units. Although, one speaker cover has a tear in it (about the size of a nickel) and some of the pegs have broken off, so the covers would need to be replaced.

Tell the dealer to get new grills or lower the price to make up for the cost of replacing them. He needs to move those speakers to make room for new, as well to replace his investment. I wouldn't want a speaker that has a ripped grill.

Warp - Thanks for weighing in. The dealer decided to discount the set instead of finding me new grills, which, as it turns out is the less desirable option because I now have to somehow have them fixed/replaced. Any suggestions?

Hate to press my point again, but I think you'd be fine bi-amping the 100's off the 5003, and given the in-room sensitivity of 91dB on the 100's. That'd be 180W RMS, I'd assume (as long as there aren't any odd factors coming into play with bi-amping that I don't know about). They're rated up to 210W max. input power, with power handling up to 350W.

One thing I just learned on the 100 v4's: Paradigm's site says they're an 8 ohm speaker, but some people on here say they're a 4 ohm speaker, and they have an area in the upper midbass where they drop down to 2.5-ish.

CJV - Since my dealer only had the 6003 and he made me a better offer on that model, I went ahead and picked it up, along with the 100 v4s. :D

I will be bi-amping my 100 v4s from the SR6003, and I am looking to go with the Canare 4S11, a 4-conductor 14-gauge cable from Blue Jeans Cable. What would you all recommend in terms of termination? I would imagine most people here use Banana Plugs? And if so, is there a preference of locking vs non-locking? I would assume it depends on the installation...

Most importantly, can anyone comment on the 4 ohm / 8 ohm issue mentioned above relative to the Studio 100 v4s? Thanks...

Most importantly, can anyone comment on the 4 ohm / 8 ohm issue mentioned above relative to the Studio 100 v4s? Thanks...

I had my studio 100 v3 hooked up to a sr5001 90wpc bi-amped and it didn't sound bad. The main problems came into play when it came to 5.1 audio, as the amp began to strain powering all channels. I just wasn't able to reach the desired listening volumes.

I have a Onkyo 875 which I don't use the bi-amp or bridge feature as it states in the manual that it could damage the amp if speakers are hard to drive. I do have to say that the extra power made a big difference.

as for the wire goes if your not going to be moving your speakers or disconnecting them often then I recommend connecting with the bare wire. This way you don't get any signal lost. They say you should however re-strip the cord every year or so. This will save you the cost of those plugs.

Considering the 10's look like the old 20's as far as size goes, I wonder how big the 20's are actually going to be?

The Studio 20v5 are the same size as the Studio 20v4. The Studio 10v5 is significantly smaller.

Warp - Thanks for weighing in. The dealer decided to discount the set instead of finding me new grills, which, as it turns out is the less desirable option because I now have to somehow have them fixed/replaced. Any suggestions?

Paradigm makes it very easy for a dealer to order parts. Provide the exact model and color, and your part is a phone call away.
You can always go to another dealer if the store doesn't want to bother making a sale!

glennQ

what is the msrp for a pair of studio 10's?

what is the msrp for a pair of studio 10's?

399.00 ea. on page 4 of the thread

Thanks for the pics glennQNYC.

The Studio 10 looks awesome !!!

Did you have a chance to listen to them ?!?

I'm curious to know how they sound. :D


Also... are you a Dealer???

.

Thanks for the pics glennQNYC.

Did you have a chance to listen to them ?!?

Not yet, I took a look out of curiousity and boxed them back up until I get a chance to play.
BTW... I didn't take a close look at the phaseplug when I had them out... And I'm not sure I care if the phasecap/dustplug is mounted to the voicecoil former or the polepiece! I'll let my ears decide. :^)

glennQ

My point about the phase plug is that it seems that Paradigm isn't being as progressive as I would have liked. Reminds me of B&W making the 6 series in China just doesn't feel right. I have always liked Paradigm and B&W as they are always aspiring to making there low end speakers as good as last years model up. Hopefully this trend will continue...

wow I just looked at your picks of those are Cherry? I was going to a get a pair for new rears as they look clean from behind but that cherry is very red compared to last years.

When reporting dealer impressions, it would be helpful if you mentioned your relationship with the dealer. If it's someone that you know personally and have a long relationship with, you'll be more likely to get an honest opinion. Most dealers will give you the party line otherwise.

Everything will be made clear in the not so distant future, in fact a reviewer in this thread said he is expecting some v5's shortly. Dealers have them now.

Us early adopters have put some blind faith in Paradigms design team, although I think from Paradigms reputation that it not so ill placed as some of the recent posts seem to pointing out.

I, for one, will get my first taste on Saturday :)

Please post impressions and pics RobBas! :D

Sill no clue on Canadian pricing anyone???

Sill no clue on Canadian pricing anyone???

Why don't you ask your local dealer? Based on the list prices I got (which I forget now except for what I bought) and what I saw posted here a few days ago, they are "similar" in number of $$ to the U.S. prices...I think it was roughly 10% more. Considering the exchange premium is ~25%, that is decent IMO.

Well I just got back from my dealer picking up a part, and low and behold he had the New Studio 100's and the 20's with the 60's on the way soon... They are very pretty in Cherry and the sound is even better then my Studio 100 .v4.... No question about it, they are tighter and more lush, the sound stage from these is absolutely spectacular perfectly balanced, centered and dropped back behind the 2 speakers for nice depth, my jaw hit the floor.... I was very very impressed !!!!
It seemed to me that the 20's lost some bass in the transfer to the new cabinet, but they still sounded pretty good, not as good as the 100's, thats for sure, I think they left a little drool on my face... :)

The tweeter remains the same, new midrange w/phase plug attached to the cone. The new woofers are completely redone with a high roll surround that will allow much more excursion then the previous .v4's... The speakers sound speaks for itself and to me are well worth the upcharge, actually they have me thinking serously about upgrading, but I may just hold out for the Sigs...

I want to say they were powered by NAD, but I am not sure.... I didn't have alot of time to spend with them just yet but I will go back and report once again. If you were holding out for reviews on the new .v5 I promise you they will come back with a winning number.

Please excuse this sub par picture from my Iphone, had I known I would be stopping there I would have brought my camera.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=132499&stc=1&d=1233862961

On the dust cap, phase plug issue, according to my Paradigm rep all of the small 3.5-4 drivers use an actual phase plug. The 7 mid driver on the Studio 100's uses an actual phase plug. The 5.25 drivers in the Studio 60's, & 10's use a dust cap. He thought, but couldn't verify that the light colored 7 drivers on the cc690 also utilized a dust cap, & the small mid driver used the phase plug. Hope this clears some things up. My take is basically they are using phase plugs on the drivers that interact closest to the high pass xover point, since any driver with a phase plug is considered a mid.

He also had a pair of Studio 10's an claimed that they sounded fantastic as did the CC490.:) Can't wait to hear for myself.

Well I just got back from my dealer picking up a part, and low and behold he had the New Studio 100's and the 20's with the 60's on the way soon... They are very pretty in Cherry and the sound is even better then my Studio 100 .v4.... No question about it, they are tighter and more lush, the sound stage from these is absolutely spectacular perfectly balanced, centered and dropped back behind the 2 speakers for nice depth, my jaw hit the floor.... I was very very impressed !!!!


Warpdrv,

How do the Studio v5's sound vs. Signature v2's?

Would you say the Studio v5's are closer in sound to Signature v2's?
or Studio v4's? or somewhere in the middle? :D

I've been saving my pennies to buy a pair of Sig 2's.
If the Studio 20's are close to the Sigs...I may go for the v5's instead!

Thanks!
Pete

Thanks for posting the early impressions, I am sure it eases whatever doubts, if any, those of us had who have already bought the v5's have. FWIW, a friend of mine went over to his dealer who had a pair of the Studio 10's and he said he was blown away by them and he has the Studio 60's v4 (he wants to sell for a crazy price, PM me if interested, I will send you his contact information). All of what Warpdrv said was what he echoed to me, he also added he was shocked at how loud the 10's played without distorting. Good Stuff :D

Well I just got back from my dealer picking up a part, and low and behold he had the New Studio 100's and the 20's with the 60's on the way soon... They are very pretty in Cherry and the sound is even better then my Studio 100 .v4.... No question about it, they are tighter and more lush, the sound stage from these is absolutely spectacular perfectly balanced, centered and dropped back behind the 2 speakers for nice depth, my jaw hit the floor.... I was very very impressed !!!!


Thanks for the pic and quick review.
I checked with a couple of local dealers. One will only display the 100s and doesn't know when they will arrive. The other will only display the 60s. Both will only have black on display. Bummer. I guess I'll have to do some driving to compare them both (or catch a plane to Wisconsin :).) I thought I was set on Rosenut, but the Cherry is looking really nice.

Warpdrv,

How do the Studio v5's sound vs. Signature v2's?

Would you say the Studio v5's are closer in sound to Signature v2's?
or Studio v4's? or somewhere in the middle? :D

I've been saving my pennies to buy a pair of Sig 2's.
If the Studio 20's are close to the Sigs...I may go for the v5's instead!

Thanks!
Pete

Hey Pete...

The .v5's are nice for sure, but lets be clear they are no Sig .v2 with that Be tweeter... That is one of the finest tweeters I have heard to date short of the tweeter on Nuances Salk SongTower ribbon tweet, but without the beeming nature of a ribbon. I was astonished with the sound from the new S6's and S8's and I have vowed to get a pair of the S8's sometime down the road. And the Mid's on the new Sigs are brilliant, better by far then the Studio line...

IMO I have the Sig .v1 S4's and in the short amount of time I had, the new Studio 20's don't come close to those, much less the .v2 Sigs.

I was NOT impressed with the new Studio 20 .v5, after listening to the 100's and then the 20's they to me seemed to fall flat and sounded kinda nasally... They just weren't as impressive to me as the 20's .v4 which I have.

If I was looking for a bookshelf, I would go for the Sig S2 or S4 .v2 used. They come up on Audiogon from time to time....

The new 100's were definitely tighter in the bass and mid range with the new cabinets, and they look fantastic....

I'm no expert, but doesn't it look like the 20 has a dust cap in that last picture? it looks different than the dust cap/phase plug on the 100, but maybe its just the angle.

I'm no expert, but doesn't it look like the 20 has a dust cap in that last picture? it looks different than the dust cap/phase plug on the 100, but maybe its just the angle.

I noticed this too, and was wondering about it. I'm still waiting on the official reply from Paradigm on this...should hear from them soon I imagine.

That's a bummer about the Studio 20's...I have my hopes set on picking up a pair...what do S2 v2's go for used, anyway? Anyone have an idea?

Hey Pete...

The .v5's are nice for sure, but lets be clear they are no Sig .v2 with that Be tweeter...

Thanks Warpdrv!

I will start monitoring Audiogon for a nice pair of Sig 2 v2's!
Love that speaker!

Pete

i was e-mailed all the new v-5 info today they look great like the sig including a new studio 10 will try to attach all i was sent . glad i waited

Warpdrv: That was a quick reversal from a glowing first look lol. But I get it, the Sigs are on another level, and at that price point, I would expect no less.

Warpdrv: That was a quick reversal from a glowing first look lol. But I get it, the Sigs are on another level, and at that price point, I would expect no less.

Hey Rob, I'm sorry maybe I haven't been clear, The 100's really wowed me.... I wouldn't have a problem trading my .v4's for the new hotness - they sounded great.... smooth and vibrant, well put together I would say.... Not sure why they chose to do that dust cap thing, but it honestly didn't take away from my listening experience. Very nice...

But I didn't like the New 20's much.... somehow they seemed to have lost some of what I had grown to appreciate with the .v4's. They definately didn't have the same bass as they did before, both the dealer and I had found the same to be true. I have had a few speaker shootouts and .v4's always held their own against plenty of other speakers.

If it were me, and I had to choose between the New Studio 20's and the Sigs S2's, I would choose the Sigs - be it the .v1 or the .v2.... But thats me.... Everyones experience is different which is why this hobby is so subjective....

I hope that helps clear things up.

It's OK, I was just giving ya a hard time :D I hope the 60's have some of what the 100's do. You obviously know more than me, and they impressed the heck out of you, that's gives me a warm fuzzy :)

We are mostly HT so it was either bookshelves or the 60's, we chose the 60's rather than pay for stands; from what your saying that might have seen a sound decision which came about solely base on aesthetics. In any case, thanks again for posting your initial impressions and I look forward to hearing what you think after some additional listening time.

Does anybody have a pic of the black version???

.

Does anybody have a pic of the black version???

.

I don't have a pic. But you've seen the previous Studio series black ash finish? It looks very much like that, except real wood. There is grain. There is not a corner or sharp edge anywhere, everything rounded. Looks rather well-made actually. IMO it doesn't look like the black finish you can barely see on that speaker in the pic earlier in this thread. Speaking of the CC-690 here, presume other models are similar??

In case you get the wrong impression, I do not particularly like black. Especially black electronic components. But...I have learned over many years that it's the only "safe" speaker finish if you gradually upgrade and don't want all your HT speakers to look different. The "same" finish can vary drastically over a couple years even. And as I upgraded speakers, moving fronts to surrounds, then to backs etc., you can end up with a real mish-mash. Not that I particularly care about things like that, but I have to admit it does look haphazard. And I do like real wood (preferably a darker wood) with a "natural" finish BTW, so if choosing that finish I'd buy my whole HT speaker setup at roughly the same time based on what I know now. I am running with 690 center, 40 surrounds, 20 backs now and I find it quite suitable for my average-sized room...doubt I will change any of those for quite a long while, it was my center that was by far the weakest part (it was a Studio Ref. center, not sure what the model # is).

Also, in this case, I have another idiosynchrasy that applies: I do not like having any gear in front of my face except the screen. I figured a (large) black speaker would annoy me the least LOL. The previous center speaker was almost invisible in the darkened room, it had black grille cloth on 3 sides (cheap, but visually effective for me).

When reporting dealer impressions, it would be helpful if you mentioned your relationship with the dealer. If it's someone that you know personally and have a long relationship with, you'll be more likely to get an honest opinion. Most dealers will give you the party line otherwise.

I have know my dealer for a long time, and my younger brother is going to be his best man. He told me that the v5 line was a let down and that the midrange drivers were no good. Still thinks that the v4 is the best so far. As for the new 100s are they smaller then before? They look short in that picture next to the 20s

So there's no way to tilt the new v5 center channels up or down?

No, not on the 690 and included at least. It looks like other/smaller models *may* come with other mounting options, but I don't know for sure as the manual is very general purpose and may be the v4 center manual with a v5 addenda page.

I asked Paradigm directly (referenced v5) answer is below:


Hi Rob

The CC-690 has adjustable feet that allow it to be tilted upwards. The speaker should be aimed to just above your head level when seated.

Thanks for choosing Paradigm.

Sincerely,
<name withheld>
Paradigm Technical Support

That dealer should go and work for Paradigm and help them fix their lousy midrange driver problem!

^ No offense, but I have one. The CC-690 feet are NOT adjustable, unless removing counts. :) By coincidence I just re-read the manual about 15 minutes ago...before filing it "forever". I wish what the guy said was correct though, would sure be a lot more convenient for me...

^ No offense, but I have one. The CC-690 feet are NOT adjustable, unless removing counts. :) By coincidence I just re-read the manual about 15 minutes ago...before filing it "forever". I wish what the guy said was correct though, would sure be a lot more convenient for me...

If they got that wrong, what about height, it states in brochure 10 inches, with cradle, could you verify that, my riser on my rack is 11 inches, I'm hoping it will fit, Thanks in advance.

Are you sure your not missing something? I mean, that's sad if they do not know their own products, it was a simple enough question. Maybe the v4's do? Although I clearly said v5. I sent a reply to him, but last time they took 3 days to answer...

EDIT: I called em... they DO NOT have adjustable feet, he said maybe the tech support guy was thinking v4's, he said to go to lowes or home depot and get 1/2 inch plastic feet and use those. He asked me how low my shelf was to the ground and how far back my listening area is, and said 5 degrees should do it. Simple solution.

If they got that wrong, what about height, it states in brochure 10 inches, with cradle, could you verify that, my riser on my rack is 11 inches, I'm hoping it will fit, Thanks in advance.

That is SO funny! I just measured my CC-690! The Paradigm dimensions are overall, including feet and the way the grille sticks off to the sides ("handles" for removing it, it is a very tight fit). Width of the "box" is 36", max. height of the box is 9.5", to the nearest 1/8". Hard to measure height with cradle on for me because of location right now. Cradle is 3/4" at the tallest part, and about 1/2" at the shortest part. The cradle is shaped to only fit smoothly at one place on the curved box, so yes, 10" overall height seems about right, no more than 1/4" more than that, you are safe.

... he said to go to lowes or home depot and get 1/2 inch plastic feet and use those. He asked me how low my shelf was to the ground and how far back my listening area is, and said 5 degrees should do it. Simple solution.

Or a piece of wood, what I did for now LOL. And... 1/2" was exactly what worked out right for me. But P says to aim the speaker so the drivers (or maybe it was the tweeter??) points just over your head, so I may need more front cradle elevation. No big deal, but an adjustable cradle would have been so much neater...

Wow that is just senseless

I have know my dealer for a long time, and my younger brother is going to be his best man. He told me that the v5 line was a let down and that the midrange drivers were no good. Still thinks that the v4 is the best so far. As for the new 100s are they smaller then before? They look short in that picture next to the 20sI wonder if he'll change his tune after he clears out his v4 inventory.

^ I would be surprised if anybody except Paradigm has any v5s that are fully broken in, so kinda hard to give an accurate sonic judgment yet.

But yeah, I know what you mean. Even VERY reputable dealers do kinda push their "old" models so they can replace with new inventory that (almost) everybody wants. Many don't replace old demo models with the new ones until they can first clear the old out...for obvious reasons besides the dealers sunk $$.

OTOH, especially these days, newer doesn't always mean better. Very often it mean more "features" but more cheaply built. And if you want the features, gotta take the build hit or pay an ever-growing premium.

In the case of the P v5s, I don't see an obvious *technical* downside, presuming you like the shape/finish/size/etc., and build quality looks improved IMO.

I have yet to listen to the CC690 v5 - waiting for them to come in. I already have stands, so I was REALLY hoping to get the Studio 40's, but they don't make them. So now I'm caught between auditioning Studio 20's and Studio 100's (unless someone can convince me that the Studio 60's with a different sized woofer would match the CC690). About 70% will be home theater, the other 30% music.

Having a receiver, I was a little concerned with amplifier power, but according to the specs on the Paradigm website, you can drive the Studio 100's with your IPod :p (seriously, the Studio 100's only ask for 15 watts minimum), and they're 3db more sensitive than the Studio 20's.

I really liked the Atlantic Tech 620e series, but the gorgeous look and previous reviews of the Studio line, has me waiting for one listen to finalize my purchasing decision. All that said - are the Studio 100's worth the extra cost vs the 20's because the purpose of the subwoofer is to handle the low end grunt work and the 20's are claimed to go down to 54hz (And when Home Theater reviewed the v4 Studio 20's they said "Enough bass to go sub-less ")?

I would live opinions from people who have heard the 20's next to the 60's or 100's. Thanks!

I had the 20's previously before I bought a set of used V2 100's and immediately noticed a broader soundstage.....they seemed to fill my room (14x24) with ease compared to the 20's which had to be pushed a little more.

As far as amplification goes, I just had a Marantz receiver powering them, then an inexpensive Behringer amp and now a 250W Parasound amp that seems to mate beautifully with them. No doubt that extra power is a noticeable benefit to the 100's as far as I'm concerned. Receiver power will drive them fine but an external amp is what you need to get to the next level.

But a sub is needed, especially in HT if you want to experience it the way it was meant to be experienced. The 20's have enough bass to go sub-less? I find that hard to believe unless your only listening to 2 channel stuff in an apartment. There, you have no choice.:D
Even a modest sub would be a welcome benefit to any system. whether its a pair of 20's or 100's.

I wont harp on it too much but I have to mention that the next step is room treatment.
I just installed 4 bass traps in my room from GIK and I'm in awe of the sound quality that it brings to my ears now, considering the $$$ spent. I've even lowered the gain in my sub and it seems just as audible as before with the benefits of being tighter and smoother.
And it may be pyscho-acoustic, but it seemed I could pick out each individual instrument in the Eagles DVD concert I watched last nite. More clarity all around is one way I would describe it.

If any one has ONE studio 60 V.4 email me, I want to use that for center in my home theather!
yourtoys7@gmail.com

Just got home from a wonderful day out with the wife, not sure I will get anything done tonight, will post some real pics tomorrow.

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x242/routar/0207091834.jpghttp://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x242/routar/0207091835.jpg

Just got home from a wonderful day out with the wife, not sure I will get anything done tonight, will post some real pics tomorrow.

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x242/routar/0207091834.jpghttp://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x242/routar/0207091835.jpgyou could have atleast take them out the box and take a pic

you could have atleast take them out the box and take a pic

I second that! C'mon Rob pull the trigger ... the good stuff happens when you open the box.:D

pictures, pictures, :> take your time...

you could have atleast take them out the box and take a pic

They have to go upstairs... so I rather not take them out until we get them up here tomorrow. Wife and I are exhausted from a long day. Tomorrow morning they shall be put into service and real pics will follow.

I had the opportunity to listen to the new 60s today at the audio store in Colorado Springs. I'm interested mostly in the 100s but since they only had these I had a listen. Let me say I was extremely impressed. Just unbelievable sound stage and really good detail and solid bass. I own the studio 40s v.4 currently and the new 60s just blew them away. I may have to reconsider the 60s now. They really do look nice too but you can see that from the photos. Looks like a winner to me.

They have to go upstairs... so I rather not take them out until we get them up here tomorrow. Wife and I are exhausted from a long day. Tomorrow morning they shall be put into service and real pics will follow.

:p;)

I had the opportunity to listen to the new 60s today at the audio store in Colorado Springs. I'm interested mostly in the 100s but since they only had these I had a listen. Let me say I was extremely impressed. Just unbelievable sound stage and really good detail and solid bass. I own the studio 40s v.4 currently and the new 60s just blew them away. I may have to reconsider the 60s now. They really do look nice too but you can see that from the photos. Looks like a winner to me.

Wow I just keep hearing great things about the v5's! I've only heard the new 10's thus far myself and those floored me for a small bookshelf speaker. I threw all kinds of bass recordings at them and they didn't hiccup. I was shocked at how much low end they had for such a small speaker. These would make out great in a small system or to be used as rears.

I am getting ready to order a pair of 100 v5's on Monday and I will either sell my 60v4's if I can get something fair for them, or I'll use them as rears which I don't have now and need anyway. That might be my best option and since I am not currently running a sub right now, the 100's v5's in the front and 60v4's in the back should be a nice treat until I pull the trigger on a new sub. For music I am 2-channel guy mostly anyway.

Question: My L/R speakers will be the 100's. The center speaker I was planning on going with the 690. Only problem is the stand for that speaker is expensive, about $300 or so. My other option would be to just have both of the MFW15's next to each other and put the speaker on that.

Or...I figure I can just get a 3rd 100 and use that for a center channel. Which would sound better? What do you guys think would look more attractive up front? Seeing the 3 towers w/ the 2 huge subs or seeing the 2 towers, 2 huge subs, and the horizontal center channel

Question: My L/R speakers will be the 100's. The center speaker I was planning on going with the 690. Only problem is the stand for that speaker is expensive, about $300 or so. My other option would be to just have both of the MFW15's next to each other and put the speaker on that.

Or...I figure I can just get a 3rd 100 and use that for a center channel. Which would sound better? What do you guys think would look more attractive up front? Seeing the 3 towers w/ the 2 huge subs or seeing the 2 towers, 2 huge subs, and the horizontal center channel

From a looks standpoint, I'd go with the CC and shop for a inexpensive (but quality) stand for it. I wouldn't place my cc on the subs because then you are imposing limitions on the best subwoofer placement.

OK - I got an email from a place I've bought speakers/electronics from in the past claiming to have an unbelievable deal for me on the new Paradigms (though they don't say what the deal is and only want serious customers calling). Here's the rub - while they're close enough to visit (30 miles away), they don't have the new Studio's yet. The "unbelievable deal" may save me money - but I want to LISTEN to speakers before buying them. As I said earlier, I really like the Atlantic Tech 6200e series and wanted to compare them to the new Studio's.

My question - "Would you buy speakers you never heard before, with only a defective exchange option?" If Paradigm hadn't received so many good reviews I'd say no, especially because I like the AT 6200e's so much.

Let me add - I hate making such quick decisions! But if I listen to them next month and end up getting the Studios anyway and pay $hundreds more for them, my better half may kill me. :confused:

OK - I got an email from a place I've bought speakers/electronics from in the past claiming to have an unbelievable deal for me on the new Paradigms (though they don't say what the deal is and only want serious customers calling). Here's the rub - while they're close enough to visit (30 miles away), they don't have the new Studio's yet. The "unbelievable deal" may save me money - but I want to LISTEN to speakers before buying them. As I said earlier, I really like the Atlantic Tech 6200e series and wanted to compare them to the new Studio's.

My question - "Would you buy speakers you never heard before, with only a defective exchange option?" If Paradigm hadn't received so many good reviews I'd say no, especially because I like the AT 6200e's so much.

Let me add - I hate making such quick decisions! But if I listen to them next month and end up getting the Studios anyway and pay $hundreds more for them, my better half may kill me. :confused:
Can't speak for you but IMO if the deal is good enough why not very few
people have bought Paradigms and not been happy sure there are better out
there but look what they cost and yes I personally would never buy a speaker without hearing it as for the new v5 have not seen them on the showroom yet to make a judgement call but the new crossovers are supposed to make them a little easier to drive the cabinet shape along with
real wood veneer might be inticing i'm sure the price will be higher.

Can't speak for you but IMO if the deal is good enough why not very few
people have bought Paradigms and not been happy sure there are better out
there but look what they cost and yes I personally would never buy a speaker without hearing it as for the new v5 have not seen them on the showroom yet to make a judgement call but the new crossovers are supposed to make them a little easier to drive the cabinet shape along with
real wood veneer might be inticing i'm sure the price will be higher.


Agreed..... the new cabinets make them a bit tighter with a bit less note retention, a little less boxy then the .v4's if you will....

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/6479/screenshot2hx2.jpg


The weights seem to be of the v4 series. They are showing the weight of studio 20 as that of the v4 studio 40 and the weight of the new studio 60 is same as the old studio 60. So I doubt the rest of the specs too.

Not sure why the images look so overexposed, it's a new camera, but you will get the gist of it, if you want anything specific just ask.

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x242/routar/009.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x242/routar/008.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x242/routar/007.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x242/routar/006.jpg

Hey Rob are you satisfied with the rosenut finish, and did you get to compare it to the cherry?

Hey Rob are you satisfied with the rosenut finish, and did you get to compare it to the cherry?

I was wondering the same thing. Those look -really- nice. Makes me want the Studio 20's and CC-590...I'm so impatient.


Hey Warp, did you get a chance to go back and listen to the v5 20's again yet?

Not sure why the images look so overexposed, it's a new camera, but you will get the gist of it, if you want anything specific just ask.
[/IMG]

Damn those cabinets are gorgous! The finish looks fabulous at that price point. My 60v4's are gigantic in comparison. As far as sound goes, I'm sure it is going to be a while before they reach potential. I've had mine since late Dec. and they are still loosening up ... granted I only give them good workouts on the weekends.;)

I was wondering the same thing. Those look -really- nice. Makes me want the Studio 20's and CC-590...I'm so impatient.


Hey Warp, did you get a chance to go back and listen to the v5 20's again yet?


I likely won't be able to venture back to my dealer for a week or more....
I'm expecting a shipment from him, it should be in this week, but I don't know If I will have the time to make it back there soon...

Our Ultra is Rosenut, so that's why we went with that, wife wanted all of it to match so we never considered the Cherry. Those pics do not do any justice to the finish of those speakers, simply put they are gorgeous. The small foot print is also so damn appealing and lets you get it away from the wall. From what I understand the v4's are very deep and much bigger. Only listening I have done is some Allison Krauss from the demo cd along with some movie scenes. When I auditioned speakers, the PSB Sync Ones really left an impression on us, these speakers really remind me of how we felt when we listened to the PSB's. I could use all the same words the other guys have mentioned in this thread, but I would just be repeating the obvious. These speakers at this price point simply cannot be beat. We were dead set on the CM series from B&W, the v5's, IMHO, were well worth the wait. The imaging, bass, I am repeating what's already been said :p Guys go audition these when your local dealers get them, you will be impressed.

DD post

After months of reading this forum and back and forth thoughts, I ordered the studio 100's v5 adp 590 and cc690 in black. Just picked them up today and got them out of the box. Ill take some pics when I can get them in place.

Question: What would be the best position for the center channel. Its just a tad too big to fit on the tv stand shelf so my thought was to build an 18" shelf above the tv. Its 65" mitsubishi dlp. The other thought would be build a riser and put the center on the top of the tv stand and then the tv on that.

Im really excited, these are my first real speakers. Ask any questions or details about the new line that you might have.

After months of reading this forum and back and forth thoughts, I ordered the studio 100's v5 adp 590 and cc690 in black. Just picked them up today and got them out of the box. Ill take some pics when I can get them in place.

Question: What would be the best position for the center channel. Its just a tad too big to fit on the tv stand shelf so my thought was to build an 18" shelf above the tv. Its 65" mitsubishi dlp. The other thought would be build a riser and put the center on the top of the tv stand and then the tv on that.

Im really excited, these are my first real speakers. Ask any questions or details about the new line that you might have.

In an ideal world the centre channel is located in the centre of the image, hence AT screens for projection, obviously not possible in your situation.....:p

The next best option is to have the tweeters accross the front stage as close to horizontal alignment as possible, so whichever option of the two you described above that comes closest to this is the one to go for.

Asthetically though having the speaker on the TV stand then the TV on a riser above is generally more popular, just remember to allow room around the centre channel to allow the speaker to "breathe".

Question: My L/R speakers will be the 100's. The center speaker I was planning on going with the 690. Only problem is the stand for that speaker is expensive, about $300 or so. My other option would be to just have both of the MFW15's next to each other and put the speaker on that.

Or...I figure I can just get a 3rd 100 and use that for a center channel. Which would sound better? What do you guys think would look more attractive up front? Seeing the 3 towers w/ the 2 huge subs or seeing the 2 towers, 2 huge subs, and the horizontal center channel

It all depends on your setup. I have a 140" AT screen in a dedicated room, my studio 60 v4 behind the screen and cc 690. Something just no all there. I would love to find 3rd studio 60 as that would be best for movies.
If your setup slows to have 3 same for the front, and you can find one, get it. I would and will if I can find one.

in an ideal world the centre channel is located in the centre of the image, hence at screens for projection, obviously not possible in your situation.....:p

the next best option is to have the tweeters accross the front stage as close to horizontal alignment as possible, so whichever option of the two you described above that comes closest to this is the one to go for.

Asthetically though having the speaker on the tv stand then the tv on a riser above is generally more popular, just remember to allow room around the centre channel to allow the speaker to "breathe".


+1...

Where can I find 1 studio 60 .4
I had studio 60 .4 for about 1 year and just recently picked up cc-690. Now with AT screen I would love to have 3 at the front for the best possible sound.
If any one has one for sale or trade for cc-690 let me know.

Originally posted by RobBas:
Not sure why the images look so overexposed, it's a new camera, but you will get the gist of it, if you want anything specific just ask.

RobBas, How is the imaging from the CC690 when it's setting on the bottom? Is it angled up a little? I was trying to figure out where I would put a large center and the bottom of the stand is really the only choice for me.

It all depends on your setup. I have a 140" AT screen in a dedicated room, my studio 60 v4 behind the screen and cc 690. Something just no all there. I would love to find 3rd studio 60 as that would be best for movies.
If your setup slows to have 3 same for the front, and you can find one, get it. I would and will if I can find one.
any pics of your setup

RobBas, How is the imaging from the CC690 when it's setting on the bottom? Is it angled up a little? I was trying to figure out where I would put a large center and the bottom of the stand is really the only choice for me.

We had to place the center on the bottom shelf of a TV stand. The shelf is about 3" off the ground, the listening area is about 9 feet away. I was told by Paradigm support to use half-inch rubber feet under the pedestals to raise the center by about 5 degrees. We just finished watching our first movie and the center was a little lacking. I am using an Onkyo 806, however, I just re-checked the levels Audyssey set, it was about 73db, so I raised it to 75 and will watch another movie shortly. I also added another piece of felt (tight squeeze) under the center to raise it a tad more. It's a monster, plan accordingly, I think it might be wall mount time for the the 58" (130 lbs) Panny and use the top shelf of the TV stand for the center. Will have to look into that option if the above does not help.

Yesterday I went to a Boston Paradigm dealer as I want to upgrade my HT front speakers. I did a one-to one comparison between Studio 60s v.4 and 60s v.5. My heart went for the v.5 – the looks – but my brain tells me the v.4s. My ears went with v.4 too.
The v.4s sounded much better in the low bass and midrange. I believe it was combination of the v.5 not broken in – they just arrived to the dealer – and the woofers size – v.4 are 7’ vs. 5.5 of v.5 --.
Initially I auditioned the v.4 with a Anthem Amplifier, and the sound was incredible. I used Rock, Jazz, female vocals and some deep bass jazz/rap. Then I switched to an Anthem Receiver – which is closer to my Onkyo NR906 --.
For my final test I used the “Ultimate Demonstration disc” from Chesky Records. In this disc you have all the advanced features you need to look in a speaker. It’s invaluable, especially for a newbie like me.
v.4 were superior in mid-range. The dealer told me the v.4 is better because the mid-range uses a metallic phase plug, while v.5 uses a dust cap. And he showed me how the dust-caps move with the diaphragm while the phase plugs are fixed. On the other hand, Paradigm v.5 brochures in this thread mention the mid-range and woofers use ‘new’ technology.
The 60s v.5 are $1,800 USD, however the dealer offered me the 60s v.4 demos in $1,350 … very tempting, don’t you think?
Another issue is space. I’ll use them in my living room, so the v.4 boxes are too big, besides I need to move them 1 foot from the wall, plus the 17 inches deep, that’s a lot of space. Wife Acceptance would not be an issue with the v.5s …
What would you do in my shoes: 60s v.4 – used, cheap – or new v.5?
Tony

Just FYI, the v5 60's have 2 5.5's as opposed to the one 7" of the v4's, I am playing some rap\hip hop at the moment with my Ultra turned off, they seem to get pretty low for 5.5's. But trust your ears, you have to live with them.

Your post is another one where the dealer is saying the v4's are better than the v5's, I, too, wonder how much of that is trying to get rid of the v4's, Just some food for thought.

Thanks for posting the pics RobBas! How long have you had them?

Rosenut. Nice. Might order that finish if I go with the Paradigm Studio v.5's. 100's for my mains, a CC690 for the center and probably the 20's (or a pair of 10's) for surrounds.

I take it you bought the 60's for mains, cc690 center...

Just FYI, the v5 60's have 2 5.5's as opposed to the one 7" of the v4's, I am playing some rap\hip hop at the moment with my Ultra turned off, they seem to get pretty low for 5.5's. But trust your ears, you have to live with them.

Your post is another one where the dealer is saying the v4's are better than the v5's, I, too, wonder how much of that is trying to get rid of the v4's, Just some food for thought.

One more thing to keep in mind with the v5's: how many people have compared broken-in v5's with v4's? All the dealers that have v5's have gotten them in the last week or two, so I doubt any of them are broken in yet.

I'm adding 2 pics of the 60s from my iPhone -- blurry -- v.4 are wider and deeper. Also rhe dealer offered me Sigature 6 demo pair for $4,000, but I dont want to go overboard.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/247/3264955612_a6c3ccc104.jpg and http://farm1.static.flickr.com/196/3264955434_090d01c1a5.jpg

Thanks for posting the pics RobBas! How long have you had them?

Rosenut. Nice. Might order that finish if I go with the Paradigm Studio v.5's. 100's for my mains, a CC690 for the center and probably the 20's (or a pair of 10's) for surrounds.

I take it you bought the 60's for mains, cc690 center...

I am sorry the pics were not better quality, new camera and all.. In all about 1 day :D I picked them up on Saturday.

Yeah we went with the 60's and the monster (quite literally) center, since we are mostly in HT. As I type I am listening to some bass heavy rap\hip hop with just the towers, and man they throw out some serious bass, when I add in the center in all channel stereo, even more impressive. I feel like I might need an amp, I dropped it down to -4, and the speakers were looking at me like that's all you got (Onkyo 806), they were barely moving air :o But that will have to wait, much like the 590's :(

Yes, I agree the Dealer insisted on Studio 60 v.4 are the best for me. Well, regarding the bass, the v.4 was clearly better. I used Cosmic Hippo (Bela Fleck) and Tom’s Diner (Suzzane Vega) both have very low bass. Again, v.5 were not broken in. The dealer told me the v.5 will sound better and potentially sound as good to the v.4s, but he insisted the mid-range in the v.4 was definitely better, and this is a very important frequency range for music. I’m not sure if I can wait for Stereophile or any other decent Audio magazine to review the v.5. At least I read one Stereophile contributor just got them and will be working on the review, but not sure this wil be ready for March Number.
Do you guys think the new Studio 100s v.5 would be too much for my room ( 2500 cu ft) and my 145W /8 Ohm Onkyo NR906 Receiver?

At least I read one Stereophile contributor just got them and will be working on the review, but not sure this wil be ready for March Number.The deadline for the March issue was December 15. You do the math. ;)

Do you guys think the new Studio 100s v.5 would be too much for my room ( 2500 cu ft) and my 145W /8 Ohm Onkyo NR906 Receiver?nope, perfect combo 100's and 906 IMO

I have been waiting patiently for the release of the V.5's. I will be buying five studio 20's. From what I'm hearing I hope I haven't made a mistake... I'll be disappointed if the 20v.5's have a dust cap not to mention inferior sound to the v.4's. Paradigm has not answered my e-mail regarding the dust cap issue. :confused:

One more thing to keep in mind with the v5's: how many people have compared broken-in v5's with v4's? All the dealers that have v5's have gotten them in the last week or two, so I doubt any of them are broken in yet.

While I imagine that there will be some difference due to the v.5's not being broken in I suspect that most of the difference is due to the way they are equalized. That is, assuming there are actual differences between the v.4's and the v.5's then it stands to reason that they would need different equalization to get the most out of them.

When you do an A/B comparison between speakers you really should have them both ballanced in the way that produces the best sound from each and of course, that almost never happens at a dealer -- usually that's by design so as to favor one speaker over another -- usually the ones that make the dealer the most profit.

The same issue occurs with amps of course as the equalization is usually done at the amp/receiver and not the speakers. If you properlly ballance and equalize two different amps they should sound just about the same so long as they're not over-driven.


Brian

I have been eyeing the Studio 60's and CC-590 v4 for a while now and was ready to pull the trigger on them when I got a look at the v5's. Those speakers are truly a thing of beauty! I have a question concerning the pairing of those speakers with my AVR. I have the Yamaha RX-V663, which is rated at 95w per channel(7.1 @ 665w total), and have it in a room that is roughly 2000cf. Would I be wasting those Studios given my current set-up?

I have been eyeing the Studio 60's and CC-590 v4 for a while now and was ready to pull the trigger on them when I got a look at the v5's. Those speakers are truly a thing of beauty! I have a question concerning the pairing of those speakers with my AVR. I have the Yamaha RX-V663, which is rated at 95w per channel(7.1 @ 665w total), and have it in a room that is roughly 2000cf. Would I be wasting those Studios given my current set-up?

Big time. Get a set of used separates on audiogon and do those speakers justice!

I have been eyeing the Studio 60's and CC-590 v4 for a while now and was ready to pull the trigger on them when I got a look at the v5's. Those speakers are truly a thing of beauty! I have a question concerning the pairing of those speakers with my AVR. I have the Yamaha RX-V663, which is rated at 95w per channel(7.1 @ 665w total), and have it in a room that is roughly 2000cf. Would I be wasting those Studios given my current set-up?


Hey, I'm getting the Studio 100's, 20's for surround, and either the CC-690 or another 100 for the center channel and I'm using the Yamaha 663 as well. I plan on adding the Emotiva XPA-5 to it. My room is only about 2300cf.

Big time. Get a set of used separates on audiogon and do those speakers justice!

I'll disagree here not because I think 65wpc is enough but because 65wpc will work. Yes, having more power is to be preferred but so long as you do not overdrive the amp the speakers will sound just fine with 65wpc.

Now, if you want to get the most out of the 60's you'd want more amp power than the rating of the speakers and just not go full throttle with them.

You are more likely to damage speakers from overdriving an under-powered amp than from pushing more clean power than the speakers are rated to handle though you don't want to do either.

So, the short answer is ... so long as you do not overdrive the amp you will be just fine but think about adding seperates to give you the power you should have.

In my case I'll be driving the new 100's from an AVR with 130wpc and in the best of worlds I should be using an amp with 225wpc or even more. Once again, so long as I do not overdrive the amp the sound will be just fine though I will not be able to turn it up as much as I could with a more powerfull amp. At pressent this is not a problem as I live in an apartment and can't really turn things up the way I'd like anyway so for the time I can live with 130wpc. When I move to a place were I can turn it up I plan to add either three monos or a 3-channel amp with at least 300wpc and preferably closeer to 500wpc (all into 8 ohms).


Brian

I got a stupid question, how do you know when you "overdrive an amp"?

I got a stupid question, how do you know when you "overdrive an amp"?If it is well-behaved, it will shut down.

I got a stupid question, how do you know when you "overdrive an amp"?Not a stupid question (and yes, there are stupid questions). Supposedly an amp will start to distort - but how do you know it's not the speaker?

I just had this issue when demoing Totem speakers. I thought I heard the Totems start bottoming out at very high volume levels, but another person said they doubt it - that the amp was bottoming out (at the time they were being driven by a Marantz 8002 A/V). So I went back and asked to hear them again with a dedicated Marantz 8003 and I heard the same thing. So I concluded the speakers were bottoming out and distorting. But would I swear on my life it wasn't the amp? Probably not.

I'll disagree here not because I think 65wpc is enough but because 65wpc will work. Yes, having more power is to be preferred but so long as you do not overdrive the amp the speakers will sound just fine with 65wpc.

Now, if you want to get the most out of the 60's you'd want more amp power than the rating of the speakers and just not go full throttle with them.

You are more likely to damage speakers from overdriving an under-powered amp than from pushing more clean power than the speakers are rated to handle though you don't want to do either.

So, the short answer is ... so long as you do not overdrive the amp you will be just fine but think about adding seperates to give you the power you should have.

In my case I'll be driving the new 100's from an AVR with 130wpc and in the best of worlds I should be using an amp with 225wpc or even more. Once again, so long as I do not overdrive the amp the sound will be just fine though I will not be able to turn it up as much as I could with a more powerfull amp. At pressent this is not a problem as I live in an apartment and can't really turn things up the way I'd like anyway so for the time I can live with 130wpc. When I move to a place were I can turn it up I plan to add either three monos or a 3-channel amp with at least 300wpc and preferably closeer to 500wpc (all into 8 ohms).


Brian

I have to politely disagree with your post. First of all, if the only goal is for the speaker to sound "fine" then he should not be getting Studio 60s. Go with a set of Polks. This is a high end speaker and it should be properly driven or else it will not sound anywhere near as good as it can or should for that matter.

As far as amps go, it's not all about your space size and how loud you drive the speakers. If you do a back to back comparison of an AVR vs. separates at a medium volume level the quality of sound will greatly favor the separates. Hands down. Power is not just about volume but more about quality and THD. An AVR is filled full of THD which degrades sound quality quite a bit. No matter the volume or decibel level.

Im not sure if its was in other versions as well, but the adp's do not come with mounting hardware. Is there somewhere to get a bracket that would work or would I need to contact the dealer to order.

I have my v5's set up temporary and they sound better that I had hoped. Im still in the process of fine tuning the sound levels.

My ADP's came with mounting hardware, granted they are .v4's. All the mounting hardware is a bracket with a tapered edge on it which gets screwed to the wall and the speaker slides down onto.

If you bought these brand new from a dealer - CALL HIM, for what you pay for these speakers they should be included. I'm sure he will agree.... That is what you have a dealer for !!!! To take care of everything during and after the sale. :)

I have to politely disagree with your post. First of all, if the only goal is for the speaker to sound "fine" then he should not be getting Studio 60s. Go with a set of Polks. This is a high end speaker and it should be properly driven or else it will not sound anywhere near as good as it can or should for that matter.

As far as amps go, it's not all about your space size and how loud you drive the speakers. If you do a back to back comparison of an AVR vs. separates at a medium volume level the quality of sound will greatly favor the separates. Hands down. Power is not just about volume but more about quality and THD. An AVR is filled full of THD which degrades sound quality quite a bit. No matter the volume or decibel level.

I don't think it is a bad idea for the OP to get the studio 60s if he isn't running the best electronics. The weakest link in any good system is always going to be the speakers. You can hook up 10k Krells to $100 speakers and it's going to sound awful. However, a $500 AVR hooked up to the 60s is still going to sound pretty good. Plus, it gives him an excuse to upgrade to better stuff later on. My dealer quoted me 1650 for a pair of the v.5 60s so it's not exactly "stratosphere" priced stuff. Just my 2 cents.

I spent about 5 hours Saturday, listening to the V5 20's and the 10's and the monitor line he had. He didn't have any of the studio 60's and I did not listen to the 100's. Well, it's been bothering me since. I went back down there today and spent a considerable amount of time listening to the 100's.
He shot me a price of $5,300 for the 100's ($2700), cc-690 ($1350), and a pair of the ADP590's ($1250). I have a sub on order through SVS. the PB12NSD (recommended by a fine member of this site)
He stated that this is the lowest he could go. (basically 10% off is what it comes out to)
Is this price comparable to what everyone else is seeing in other areas?
It is a Home theater store that specializes in custom setups. He said if he was selling me a TV and the whole ball of wax he could cut the price somewhere else, but since it is only the speakers, Paradigm was really strict on their pricing requirements.
Is this true, or could I get him down lower?
Thanks for the input in advance.
Dan

I spent about 5 hours Saturday, listening to the V5 20's and the 10's and the monitor line he had. He didn't have any of the studio 60's and I did not listen to the 100's. Well, it's been bothering me since. I went back down there today and spent a considerable amount of time listening to the 100's.
He shot me a price of $5,300 for the 100's ($2700), cc-690 ($1350), and a pair of the ADP590's ($1250). I have a sub on order through SVS. the PB12NSD (recommended by a fine member of this site)
He stated that this is the lowest he could go. (basically 10% off is what it comes out to)
Is this price comparable to what everyone else is seeing in other areas?
It is a Home theater store that specializes in custom setups. He said if he was selling me a TV and the whole ball of wax he could cut the price somewhere else, but since it is only the speakers, Paradigm was really strict on their pricing requirements.
Is this true, or could I get him down lower?
Thanks for the input in advance.
Dansounds good. support the mom and pop stores
:)

Tell him $5K tax in and its a deal!:D

Tell him $5K tax in and its a deal!:D
That's what I was thinking about doing. and then going to 5K + tax if he doesn't go for it.
Just really wanted to see what everyone was seeing for prices so I kinda know how low he can go. :)
dan

10% is a pretty standard beginning of a relationship with a dealer... These are a brand new line and this is the dealers biggest leverage point at this time. As time goes on, he will start to become more flexible in pricing to move product when they are not the new hotness...

Your ability to convey this information to him tactfully will increase your odds at getting a better discount. In reality all they do is push paperwork here... This economy is getting tight, I'm sure you could easily get 15%, but seriously devolope a relationship with your dealer, these guys won't be around for long with the way things are going...


I also agree with osofast240sx 100% !!!!!!, support your local mom and pop store, look what Walmart and all the rest of these careless CORPORATIONS have done to this country up to now... and its only going to get worse if we don't take care of our own people !!!!

I don't think it is a bad idea for the OP to get the studio 60s if he isn't running the best electronics. The weakest link in any good system is always going to be the speakers. You can hook up 10k Krells to $100 speakers and it's going to sound awful. However, a $500 AVR hooked up to the 60s is still going to sound pretty good. Plus, it gives him an excuse to upgrade to better stuff later on. My dealer quoted me 1650 for a pair of the v.5 60s so it's not exactly "stratosphere" priced stuff. Just my 2 cents.

I am really just starting to enter the world of audio (mostly for HT), and have been limping along with a pair of old Klipsch KG-4.5's for my fronts. Paired with the 663 Yamaha, they sound pretty shrill. I have been impressed with the Studio 60's and CC-590 since I spent a couple of Saturday afternoon's at my local audio store listening to different models on display. Maybe somewhere in my future I'll go with separates, but for now, I'm interested in speakers. Maybe I'm aiming a bit too high with the Paradigm's, but they are some darn sweet speakers IMO.

I also agree with osofast240sx 100% !!!!!!, support your local mom and pop store, look what Walmart and all the rest of these careless CORPORATIONS have done to this country up to now... and its only going to get worse if we don't take care of our own people !!!!thanks, we should also mention the knowlege they pass down is priceless.

My speakers have arived!


Brian

thanks, we should also mention the knowlege they pass down is priceless.


That and the collections of music they have acquired is seriously impressive. My dealer has some of the most amazing testing material, I listen to stuff all over the map, and he always is auditioning material I haven't heard and it always sounds incredible.... I find myself getting a new list of stuff to acquire every time I stop there...

In the end - we share the same passion with the dealer... good sound.

My speakers have arived!


Brian


Congrats Brian !!!!

Now stop desecrating those works of art with those tacky lamps on them.

That is sacrilege... ~~~~ :o

I am really just starting to enter the world of audio (mostly for HT), and have been limping along with a pair of old Klipsch KG-4.5's for my fronts. Paired with the 663 Yamaha, they sound pretty shrill. I have been impressed with the Studio 60's and CC-590 since I spent a couple of Saturday afternoon's at my local audio store listening to different models on display. Maybe somewhere in my future I'll go with separates, but for now, I'm interested in speakers. Maybe I'm aiming a bit too high with the Paradigm's, but they are some darn sweet speakers IMO.

Yeah, I listened to the 60's last weekend for a bit. I'm strongly considering picking up a pair too. My original intent was to just get 100's but I think these would be perfect for my listening room.

I don't think you are shooting too high with these. They are rated at 92 db sensitivity so your receiver should be ok. You could always add an external amp if your AVR has preouts. A lot of guys are looking at the emotiva amps for the value. The fun part about building your HT is upgrading components over time. Just start with the speakers now and have fun!

:D

Congrats Brian !!!!

Now stop desecrating those works of art with those tacky lamps on them.

That is sacrilege... ~~~~ :o

Hey, that was just an experiment. I was checking to see if the light would be unobtrusive but they are a bit too much too close to the TV so they WILL be gone.

I started work at 8AM and found out I'd be covering a job until about 7AM tomorrow so I was planning to take the afternoon off and take a nap, but about noon my dealer called and told me the speakers were in so my nap went out the window. I picked up the speakers about 3:30PM and had them onboxed and wired up by a little after 5PM but only had until 7PM before I had to return to work.

I also have a new AVR (Pioneer SC-05) so I have some learning to do with that to get my speakers ballanced properlly. I left the apartment with a CD playing (Tool Lateralus). I have the volume down and made sure it wasn't set to repeat.

Now, the test question is ... what movie was playing on the TV when I took the pictures?


Brian

Any feedback on the sound of the V.5 studio 20's? What impressed me with the V.4's was how "realistic" both male and female voices sounded. Can anyone compare? I'm not too concerned with bass output. :)

Now, the test question is ... what movie was playing on the TV when I took the pictures?


Brian
Ha, that's easy.. the 5th element....
and PS. those lamps are hideious.. :)
Dan

My speakers have arived!


Brian

Raptor..... Can you tell us what you are running for the sub there, can you also take some pics of it with the grill off....

It totally slipped my mind when I saw it.....

@newbietothis: As Warp stated 10% is what they offer the guy that walks in. Now if you are refereed by someone (that has a relationship with the dealer), like I was, you get a considerably better deal. My dealer asked me not to get into numbers on the forum, but my deal was significantly better than 10%. As a return favor, the dealer is giving the guy who referred me, an even better deal on the Studio 100's v5, so it all works out for everyone involved. And yes, it is 100% a mom and pops store, the dealer is very old school and his showroom...:) But I did not care, I was just happy to support someone local and not some big business. So post in the Paradigm main thread for a dealer referral or maybe someone in this thread is in your area and can do you the favor.

@Raptorsys: I hate you for having a stand perfect for the cc-690, I have to spend some more money to wall mount my plasma and use the top shelf for the cc-690, but that has to wait, I am broke :o 8k in HT overhaul in 4 months, I am stimulating the economy by myself :rolleyes: and oh yeah, nice lamps :p

@rick_denv69: I have a 17x11 room on the second floor that is open to the 1st floor and the 60's do a wonderful job of filling the area with blissful sound. If the 100's are not in the budget, you will not be disappointed by the 60's.

My advice to those who are looking now (for what it's worth):

1. Take what the dealer says with a huge grain of salt unless you have a long, trusted relationship. Obviously he can inform you about objective things like the dust cap/phase plug issue, but beware of subjective opinions.

2. Don't buy into the speaker break-in excuses. Just google "speaker break-in myth" for plenty of info. If you do hear a change over time, it is most likely your ears that have adjusted, not the speakers.

3. Try to listen to both the v4 and v5 in the same room with the same sources. Then let your ears decide. Don't buy without auditioning! To me, sound is by far the number one priority, with looks being secondary. Especially if you listen to music, you don't want buyers remourse every time you listen to a great sounding CD.

4. Don't let people tell you what is better, and try to keep your own bias (looks, price, etc) in check. Blind testing is best if you can do it. Sound is subjective and each person has their own priorities, whether it's tight bass/boomy bass, detailed highs/rolled-off highs, wide soundstage/"forward" concert sound, etc. Yes, lots of people favor boomy bass, rolled-off highs, and forward sound - you may without even knowing it.

Hey Raptor, how do like the finish, I'm thinking that is the rosenut, and I will be interested in the sub, I've got the 12 coming.

My advice to those who are looking now (for what it's worth):

1. Take what the dealer says with a huge grain of salt unless you have a long, trusted relationship. Obviously he can inform you about objective things like the dust cap/phase plug issue, but beware of subjective opinions.

2. Don't buy into the speaker break-in excuses. Just google "speaker break-in myth" for plenty of info. If you do hear a change over time, it is most likely your ears that have adjusted, not the speakers.

3. Try to listen to both the v4 and v5 in the same room with the same sources. Then let your ears decide. Don't buy without auditioning! To me, sound is by far the number one priority, with looks being secondary. Especially if you listen to music, you don't want buyers remourse every time you listen to a great sounding CD.

4. Don't let people tell you what is better, and try to keep your own bias (looks, price, etc) in check. Blind testing is best if you can do it. Sound is subjective and each person has their own priorities, whether it's tight bass/boomy bass, detailed highs/rolled-off highs, wide soundstage/"forward" concert sound, etc. Yes, lots of people favor boomy bass, rolled-off highs, and forward sound - you may without even knowing it.I like your post, but I found this on the Paradigm FAQ:
Q16 Is there a 'break-in' period for Paradigm® speakers?

Although Paradigm® and Paradigm® Reference speakers sound great right out of the carton, they will sound even better once they are broken-in. We therefore recommend that you operate the speakers for several hours before you do any critical listening.

I like your post, but I found this on the Paradigm FAQ:
Q16 Is there a 'break-in' period for Paradigm® speakers?

Although Paradigm® and Paradigm® Reference speakers sound great right out of the carton, they will sound even better once they are broken-in. We therefore recommend that you operate the speakers for several hours before you do any critical listening.

I know it says that in their FAQ, but I firmly stand behind my position (as do most audio experts and professionals of which I am not). They put this in there to keep you from being disappointed that your speakers don't sound as good as they did in the store. Psychoacoustics will make a speaker sound different after some time, so if you want to call that "break-in" then OK, but that isn't going to be affected by how long they've been in a dealership. I don't want to start an age-old debate here. Just read the data that's out there and decide for yourself based on the science of it. I just hate to hear dealers tell customers how much better they will sound after break-in.

Raptor..... Can you tell us what you are running for the sub there, can you also take some pics of it with the grill off....

It totally slipped my mind when I saw it.....


It's the new Sub 15...

I'll take some nice pics in a bit...


BTW, I also picked up a new AVR (Pioneer SC-05) and have just completed the auto tuning and I'm not real happy with the EQ it kicked out. It looks like I'll be spending the next few days learning the ins-and-outs of the SC-05 but I think I'll have to use the auto tuning as a starting point and then tweak from there. I don't tend to like having having the center be so prominent and the spectral ballance isn't so good.


Brian

@Raptorsys: I hate you for having a stand perfect for the cc-690, I have to spend some more money to wall mount my plasma and use the top shelf for the cc-690, but that has to wait, I am broke :o 8k in HT overhaul in 4 months, I am stimulating the economy by myself :rolleyes: and oh yeah, nice lamps :p


I actually made the stand for the CC-690. Like most of the other crap furnitue I have it's from Ikea. That is, I picked up a couple shelf things, cut one into legs 10.625 long, screwed it into the other one and added 90 degree braces in the back for strength. It work pretty well but I'd prefer the TV to be lower.

I was going to build a stand that would put the CC-690 above the TV but I'll see how I like this before going down that road.

Of more imediate need is some speaker stands for the Studio 20 surounds and I think I will try to knock that out this weekend.

Now if only I didn't live in an apartment and could really open this bad boy up!


Brian

Hello,
I'm finally a happy Owner of Paradigm Studio 60s and CC490 in black!
Here some pics:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3361/3271394550_a181173db3_m.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3472/3271396104_985a28f4ee_m.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3368/3271395824_49ece298e4_m.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3468/3271394722_21d5343672_m.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3492/3271395284_4a57a1325c_m.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3426/3271396274_331cfc711b_m.jpg.
All pics in better resolution here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/35207927@N02)

Hey everyone, finally got a reply from Paradigm tech. support regarding the new phase plugs/dust caps. It was well worth the wait for the reply; very thorough. Thanks Paradigm tech support! Here's the reply:

Hi

The moving phase plug technology was originally developed for (and
implemented with) the Signature W5 v.2

This technology was allowed to "trickle down" as we developed the new
Studio v.5 bass/midrange drivers. The Studio v.5's new dust cap is a
logical extension of the Signatures' research and development in this area.

Only the Studio 100 v.5 midrange driver uses a stationary phase plug.

The new Studio v.5 models are designed for higher output which requires a
greater amount of cone excursion.

With this greater cone excursion, the blow-by of air and the air rushing
noises that occurred with a stationary phase plug became measurable,
and audible. This caused the stationary phase plug to be no longer
technically viable for these bass/midrange drivers. Also, under high
excursion, a stationary phase plug has a changing phase relationship with
the cone as it moves in and out - i.e. it is only optimal under low
excursion. Higher-excursion drivers ( like the Studio v.5 drivers) magnify
this problem, making the new moving phase plug actually perform better by
maintaining a consistently optimal effect regardless of cone position.

Information about the Studio v.5 models will be posted on our web site March
1/09

Reviews on the new speakers are pending i.e. The products have been sent to
the reviewers but the articles aren't available yet.

Thanks for your interest in Paradigm speakers.

So the only things I wonder, are:

1. What about the added mass on the cone from the phase plug? Maybe the magnets are more powerful to compensate or something?

2. Why does the 100 v5 still keep the old design? It doesn't make sense to me for Paradigm to produce two versions of 7" mids for the Studio line. Maybe the drivers are lower excursion on the 100's, since there are the added woofers, so they decided to go with the old drivers to avoid the added mass?

Hello,
I'm finally a happy Owner of Paradigm Studio 60s and CC490 in black!
Here some pics:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3361/3271394550_a181173db3_m.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3472/3271396104_985a28f4ee_m.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3368/3271395824_49ece298e4_m.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3468/3271394722_21d5343672_m.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3492/3271395284_4a57a1325c_m.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3426/3271396274_331cfc711b_m.jpg.
All pics in better resolution here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/35207927@N02)Sweet!

@Raptorsys: That's good stuff man, wish I had the skills to build my own stuff rather than rely of the designs of others. In a few months when I can afford\justify the additional expenditure to wall mount my plasma I am sure things will sound a lot better. Before we do that, we need to replace our aging couch, play with sub placement, etc etc, man this HT stuff is never ending, but a fun, rewarding, and expensive hobby :)

@cjv998: They take a while to reply huh? At least you got good information, the one tech that emailed me provided me completely inaccurate information. I am sure there will be post to dispute what the tech is saying, all I can say is that my 60's dig very low and very loud. There is this rap song, "Put on for my city" or something like that, it has some seriously low bass, with my Ultra on, it vibrates the floor. In any case, with my sub off I played that track and the 60's sounded amazing, and loud, I had to double check to make sure my sub was turned off... It may sound like I am exaggerating, but I assure you, I am not, I compromised with the 60's, and I am sure they have their limitations, but man, I have yet to find it.

@jagel: Congrats and let us know your impression of the 60's, always nice to have something to compare against. I love my 60's as my posts reflect. It was a tough choice, between the 60's and 100's but I went 60's so and spent the money on the cc-690.

2. Why does the 100 v5 still keep the old design? It doesn't make sense to me for Paradigm to produce two versions of 7" mids for the Studio line. Maybe the drivers are lower excursion on the 100's, since there are the added woofers, so they decided to go with the old drivers to avoid the added mass?The 100 has a real midrange which, of course, will not have the excursion of a mid/woofer such as used in the other models. So, if you buy Paradigms logic behind the change, this makes sense.

The 100 has a real midrange which, of course, will not have the excursion of a mid/woofer such as used in the other models. So, if you buy Paradigms logic behind the change, this makes sense.

That's what I was thinking, the 60 is a 2.5 way while the 100 is a true 3 way. Additionally, the driver is smaller in the the 60, and when these two factors are added together this seem to support the argument that increased excursion in necessary on the 60 to provide equivalent output.

Edit: Nonetheless, the new Studio series is seriously sexy.

Kal, Did you receive a pair of 100 ver.5's for review? If so, what do you think of the build quality? Anyway, looking forward to reading your review as always.

T.

Kal, Did you receive a pair of 100 ver.5's for review? If so, what do you think of the build quality? Anyway, looking forward to reading your review as always.

T.Nope. Expecting the 60s shortly.

Hey everyone, finally got a reply from Paradigm tech. support regarding the new phase plugs/dust caps. It was well worth the wait for the reply; very thorough. Thanks Paradigm tech support! Here's the reply:



So the only things I wonder, are:

1. What about the added mass on the cone from the phase plug? Maybe the magnets are more powerful to compensate or something?

2. Why does the 100 v5 still keep the old design? It doesn't make sense to me for Paradigm to produce two versions of 7" mids for the Studio line. Maybe the drivers are lower excursion on the 100's, since there are the added woofers, so they decided to go with the old drivers to avoid the added mass?

So, is it a dust cap or some kind of "moving phase plug" which doesn't really make sense to me? From this "Secretes of Hi Fi" review, it looks like Paradigm was really pushing the benefits of a stationary phase plug when it was introduced. It would be interesting if they are now backing off and downplaying it.


While at first glance, the mid/bass driver appears similar to the previous version of this speaker, it has been redesigned. New is the solid aluminum phase plug. If you've never seen one in the flesh you might think is is simply a cone-shaped dust cap, but it's not.

Unlike a dust cover, a phase plug is not part of the moving mass, but rather is fixed to the stationary motor structure. So, the speaker cone moves back and forth, but the phase plug does not move at all.

The voice coil drives the center of the cone in a piston-like manner. The design of the cone then takes into account the required stiffness, mass and loss characteristics in order to maximize its performance. With a phase plug, you reduce the path length differences about the cone surface, smoothing and reinforcing the frequency response, particularly in terms of the highest frequencies the driver is capable of (in fact, Paradigm tells us the differences made by the phase plug vs. a dust cap can be seen/measured right through the crossover region).

Other potential benefits gained from incorporating a phase plug include eliminating compression under the dust cap (reducing distortion in extreme cases), reducing air flow through the VC gap (which can get quite turbulent in extreme cases and is certainly unpredictable). There is some thermal dissipation one gives up by doing this, but the phase plug itself can serve as a heat sink for the voice coil and magnet pole.

All in all, while it should never be taken at face value as automatically translating into a superior product, a properly designed driver encompassing a phase plug makes a heck of a lot of sense over the established tradition. So, why don't all speakers have phase plugs? It is more expensive to build them this way.

Hey Raptor, how do like the finish, I'm thinking that is the rosenut, and I will be interested in the sub, I've got the 12 coming.

The finish is not as different from Rosenut as I would have thought and is not as red as some think it is. I had a pair of 60's some years ago and they were also in cherry.

The nice thing with the v.5's is that you can now get all the items in Black, Roasenut or Cherry including the sub. All the v.5's that I picked up Monday (2x Studio 100's, 2x Studio 20's, CC-690 and Sub 15) are in Cherry so they are all matched.

I'm still playing with the locations for the speakers, particularly the sub. I have a pretty well defined location for the fronts and center but I still need to make up some stands for the 20's I'm using for surrounds and of course the sub location is also pretty critical.


Brian

It's the new Sub 15...

I'll take some nice pics in a bit...


BTW, I also picked up a new AVR (Pioneer SC-05) and have just completed the auto tuning and I'm not real happy with the EQ it kicked out. It looks like I'll be spending the next few days learning the ins-and-outs of the SC-05 but I think I'll have to use the auto tuning as a starting point and then tweak from there. I don't tend to like having having the center be so prominent and the spectral ballance isn't so good.


Brian

Thanks....

I have Pioneer receivers and I also do not like what they do with EQ on my speakers either, I have just copied the settings to a new memory slot and then just remove all eq - ie. change it all to flat, and to me it sounds fantastic, give it a try. I do leave all the rest of the settings like Standing wave and reverb settings it has computed... As nice as it sounds to me, I am only using these receivers as temp units unti I find that perfect Pre-Pro, which I still haven't seen come out yet...

So, is it a dust cap or some kind of "moving phase plug" which doesn't really make sense to me? From this "Secretes of Hi Fi" review, it looks like Paradigm was really pushing the benefits of a stationary phase plug when it was introduced. It would be interesting if they are now backing off and downplaying it.

Most likely you just can't have both, i.e. high excursion AND a stationary phase-plug.

So they probably decided that a smaller package necessitating higher excursion drivers was what they wanted more. Not even going to attempt which will "sound better", just that that is the tradeoff the engineers were working with.

So with the phase plug thing, I'm trying to understand the engineers' though process. What are the advantages to higher excursion? You can play louder, and I assume lower? Is that it? If so, I don't understand why the extra excursion was worthwhat appears to be a step backwards in technology IMO. Maybe I'm wrong though.

So with the phase plug thing, I'm trying to understand the engineers' though process. What are the advantages to higher excursion? You can play louder, and I assume lower? Is that it? If so, I don't understand why the extra excursion was worthwhat appears to be a step backwards in technology IMO. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Well, from what I recall reading the drivers on the 60's are smaller. And sound reproduction is all about moving air; move more air play louder (I realize this is a gross simplification).

Most likely they are compensating for the smaller drivers by imbuing them with higher excursion.

Again, these are complicated systems with many inter-dependencies, so it "is" possible that the re-working of the system hasn't been at a detriment. Only time and much listening will tell....

So, I wait for Kal's very informed report :D.

I'm new here on the forum but I thought I would chime in. I am in the process of converting my NAD/Paradigm 2 channel system over to a HT. My first step was purchasing a set of Studio 40 v.4s the other night. My salesman told me the difference between the 4 and 5s were more physical in natural than an improvement in sound quality. This was backed up by an A/B comparison. Playing some tracks from the Annie Lennox Medusa album it was hard to tell the difference but to me the v4 had the better imaging. Plusm the deep discount on the v4s helped to sway me toward them. I have them home now and they are unbelievable hooked up to my NAD 7100. The next step will be a AVR (Pioneer SC05) and then a centre channel and sub, and lastly an upgrade to my Atom rears.

I'm new here on the forum but I thought I would chime in. I am in the process of converting my NAD/Paradigm 2 channel system over to a HT. My first step was purchasing a set of Studio 40 v.4s the other night. My salesman told me the difference between the 4 and 5s were more physical in natural than an improvement in sound quality. This was backed up by an A/B comparison. Playing some tracks from the Annie Lennox Medusa album it was hard to tell the difference but to me the v4 had the better imaging. Plusm the deep discount on the v4s helped to sway me toward them. I have them home now and they are unbelievable hooked up to my NAD 7100. The next step will be a AVR (Pioneer SC05) and then a centre channel and sub, and lastly an upgrade to my Atom rears.

What were you comparing to in the v5 line. Supposedly they dropped the 40's in the new line....

What were you comparing to in the v5 line. Supposedly they dropped the 40's in the new line....seems like a hole in his story:).

Here is the official Technical Bulletin from Paradigm to their Dealers. It contains more details then what we've already seen here so far...

TECHNICAL BULLETIN:
Design Highlights of New Studio v.5 Midrange and Mid/Bass Drivers





Some questions have come up from dealers, distributors and from the A/V forums regarding the design of the new Studio v.5 midrange and mid/bass drivers, so we wish to clarify some aspects of the design for you.

The design goal for performance in the new Studio v.5 line was, simply put, “same great sound - higher output”. To achieve this lofty goal, higher excursion requirements were necessary for all mid/bass and bass drivers. One of the results of this change was that the stationary phase plug was no longer technically viable for mid/bass driver applications. With this new higher excursion and higher-output design, the "blow-by" of air and the air "rushing" noises that occurred with the stationary phase plug were measurable and even quite audible.

What's more, we learned that under high excursion a stationary phase plug has a changing phase relationship with the cone as the cone moves in and out - i.e. it is only optimal under low excursion. These higher-excursion Studio v.5 mid/bass drivers actually allow the new moving phase plug to perform better by maintaining a more consistent optimal effect, regardless of cone position. Please note that the
3-way Studio 100 v.5’s midrange driver uses the same stationary phase plug design as in the v.4 model.

A side benefit of the 5-1/2" driver with the dust cap phase plug is that it adds a little extra radiating area - important in allowing the new Studio 10 and Studio 60 performance to stay consistent with Studio 20 v.4 and Studio 60 v.4. Our R&D department first implemented this moving phase plug technology with dust caps on the Reference Signature W5, and continued down this track as we developed the new Studio v.5 mid/bass drivers. The Studio v.5 dust cap is a logical extension of our Signature research and development in this area (one of the big benefits of the "trickle down" technology we get by designing and manufacturing our own drivers).

These design efforts have resulted in a truly stunning improvement in performance – “same great sound” turned out to be even better sound! Initial dealer and customer reaction has been over the top… and the beautiful new look doesn’t hurt either. We hope the above helps answer your, and your customers’ questions. As always, please feel free to contact your rep or your factory regional should you have any questions on the fantastic new Studio v.5 line up, or on any Paradigm products.

As always, we thank you for your strong and continued support of Paradigm.

Best Regards,

Good catch.......
It turns out I was comparing the 40 to the new 20....I just called my salesman and asked him about this. He initially said there was a v.5 40 but when he checked he realized his mistake. Would the size of the new 20 be close to the v.4 Studio 40? The reason I ask is there was a tear in one of the grills on the 40's I was buying. The saleman went to v.5 20s we were listening to and saw that the grills matched so he swapped them. I bought the last pair of 40's in the store so he couldnt have swapped them with another 40 grill.
You're absolutely right - there is no 40 in the new lineup.

A side benefit of the 5-1/2" driver with the dust cap phase plug is that it adds a little extra radiating area
moving phase plug technology with dust caps

:confused:

What the heck is a "dust cap phase plug"? Sorry, but that seems misleading to me. I can buy the high excursion thing - that makes sense. But shouldn't they stop using the term phase plug then?

The design goal for performance in the new Studio v.5 line was, simply put, “same great sound - higher output”.

If they're looking for higher output, why use smaller drivers that you have to push farther out (requiring other compromises)?

I know I'm sounding negative, but believe me, I'm a Paradigm supporter. I've owned Atoms, Mini Monitor, Monitor 7, PS1000, Studio 20v2, Studio 60v2, Studio CC v2, Stuido 20v4, Studio 60v4, and Studio CC 590. Obviously, I have not been shy about following their upgrade path. I'm worried about this one...

In one of their brochures I thought I read they wanted a smaller footprint for the 60's so they fit into any decor... one reason for smaller drivers which would require higher excursion to at least match the output of the old 60's. Personally speaking, I could not go with the 60 v4's they are way too deep and big, wife was turned off by the look of them, but she loves the curvy and sexy v5's :cool:

In one of their brochures I thought I read they wanted a smaller footprint for the 60's so they fit into any decor... one reason for smaller drivers which would require higher excursion to at least match the output of the old 60's. Personally speaking, I could not go with the 60 v4's they are way too deep and big, wife was turned off by the look of them, but she loves the curvy and sexy v5's :cool:

My wife decorates the rest of the house, but the A/V room is mine. My 42" cylindrical SVS sub is a bigger eyesore than the 60s by far! :) She affectionately calls it the "hot water heater".

I received the new paradigm's studio V.5 last week, set it up today and it sounds sweet. I upgraded from the monitor series, so I can't compare them from the V.4, but I think they sound great. Set up is studio 100's, CC-690, ADP 590 (still have to put these up). I am using a Fathom F113 for a sub. I got a great deal from an authorized dealer in NJ. so if anybody is interested, send me a PM.
:)

I received the new paradigm's studio V.5 last week, set it up today and it sounds sweet. I upgraded from the monitor series, so I can't compare them from the V.4, but I think they sound great. Set up is studio 100's, CC-690, ADP 590 (still have to put these up). I am using a Fathom F113 for a sub. I got a great deal from an authorized dealer in NJ. so if anybody is interested, send me a PM.
:)

Those look great. I need to stop looking at this thread. I just spent $3k on computer stuff. :(

Did your 590's come with the mounting brackets?


I received the new paradigm's studio V.5 last week, set it up today and it sounds sweet. I upgraded from the monitor series, so I can't compare them from the V.4, but I think they sound great. Set up is studio 100's, CC-690, ADP 590 (still have to put these up). I am using a Fathom F113 for a sub. I got a great deal from an authorized dealer in NJ. so if anybody is interested, send me a PM.
:)

I received the new paradigm's studio V.5 last week, set it up today and it sounds sweet. I upgraded from the monitor series, so I can't compare them from the V.4, but I think they sound great. Set up is studio 100's, CC-690, ADP 590 (still have to put these up). I am using a Fathom F113 for a sub. I got a great deal from an authorized dealer in NJ. so if anybody is interested, send me a PM.
:)They look terrific!

Did your 590's come with the mounting brackets?The brackets are included with the surrounds.

Ok - these are looking awesome, but with all of this talk of power, I'm starting to worry if my AVR is up to the task of powering a set of v5 100's and a cc690. I'm running the Yamaha flagship - the RXZ11- which is a 11.2 1,180 watt integrated unit (140W per channel).

It will let me bi-amp the mains if desired. Inquiring minds want to know - do you think this will do justice to the 100s? :confused: :confused:

It's going in a big room, supported by two paradigm servo 15v2 subs, 2 rears, and 2 side speakers.

Too little, too much, just right? What's the consensus?

_Scott

Ok - these are looking awesome, but with all of this talk of power, I'm starting to worry if my AVR is up to the task of powering a set of v5 100's and a cc690. I'm running the Yamaha flagship - the RXZ11- which is a 11.2 1,180 watt integrated unit (140W per channel).

It will let me bi-amp the mains if desired. Inquiring minds want to know - do you think this will do justice to the 100s? :confused: :confused:

It's going in a big room, supported by two paradigm servo 15v2 subs, 2 rears, and 2 side speakers.

Too little, too much, just right? What's the consensus?

_Scott

I think how much power you need for your system is really dependent on how you listen to movies and music. Of course more power is generally better right. More power will make your system come to life. Even so your AVR is no slouch so I think you would not be ill-advised to hook up the 100's and the 690. If you find you want more power then another option is to buy an amp and run preouts from your AVR to power your 100's. Although I have no personal experience with Emotiva amps I've read alot of good things about them, the value on those are pretty amazing too if you haven't checked them out.

Rick.

there is a hanging bracket for the speaker, but no other mounting hardware.There is a package insert that paradigm noted it does not include mounting hardware anymore. Will try with the bracket soon and let you know how it works out.

My wife decorates the rest of the house, but the A/V room is mine. My 42" cylindrical SVS sub is a bigger eyesore than the 60s by far! :) She affectionately calls it the "hot water heater".

Lol, it's funny you mention the PC, I wanted the PC-Ultra but SVS told her the PB goes lower and is 1-2db higher output, so that was enough for her to insist on the PB version. She won't admit it, but I think she may regret that decision, but every time we watch a movie, it's like who cares :p

She originally wanted the B&W CM9's, I am glad we waited for the v5's ,much better styling and on yeah we love how it sounds too :D

I received the new paradigm's studio V.5 last week, set it up today and it sounds sweet. I upgraded from the monitor series, so I can't compare them from the V.4, but I think they sound great. Set up is studio 100's, CC-690, ADP 590 (still have to put these up). I am using a Fathom F113 for a sub. I got a great deal from an authorized dealer in NJ. so if anybody is interested, send me a PM.
:)

Congrats, looks great but I am a tad biased :) BTW, that is one impressive setup you have!

More power will make your system come to life.

This statement is only half true. It is more accurate to say "not enough power can degrade the sound". However, once you have enough power (which is often a lot lower than people think), more power has no effect on the sound whatsoever. If 100 watts is enough to power the speakers without distortion, 200 or 1000 watts will not sound better.

For example, one watt of power will drive the Sudio 100 v5s to about 90 db (ie. very loud) assuming you are ten feet away and have the speakers near a back wall. Even with dynamic bursts (which are usually only significant on some classical music), 100 watts is usually more than enough for the average room and speakers.

This statement is only half true. It is more accurate to say "not enough power can degrade the sound". However, once you have enough power (which is often a lot lower than people think), more power has no effect on the sound whatsoever. If 100 watts is enough to power the speakers without distortion, 200 or 1000 watts will not sound better.

For example, one watt of power will drive the Sudio 100 v5s to about 90 db (ie. very loud) assuming you are ten feet away and have the speakers near a back wall. Even with dynamic bursts (which are usually only significant on some classical music), 100 watts is usually more than enough for the average room and speakers.

The other thing to consider is that published power ratings, especially on AV receivers, should be taken with a grain of salt. Let your ears decide ultimately. If you find after hooking up the fronts, center, sides, and rears that the sound is not quite what you had hoped for, then the outboard amplifier may be a possible solution. I've previously ran an Aragon 4004 off my Denon AVR and it made a pretty big impact to the overall sound quality, especially the bass. Remember that most speaker damage occurs from overdriving an amp into the point of distortion vs putting too much power into a speaker. Common sense plays into a lot of this. :)

This statement is only half true. It is more accurate to say "not enough power can degrade the sound". However, once you have enough power (which is often a lot lower than people think), more power has no effect on the sound whatsoever. If 100 watts is enough to power the speakers without distortion, 200 or 1000 watts will not sound better.

For example, one watt of power will drive the Sudio 100 v5s to about 90 db (ie. very loud) assuming you are ten feet away and have the speakers near a back wall. Even with dynamic bursts (which are usually only significant on some classical music), 100 watts is usually more than enough for the average room and speakers.

A lot of people, including myself simply do not understand this or want to... We see a speaker can take 220 watts and we think we have to have something that is rated at 200 watts. A friend of mine at work explained to me for the v5's based on the sensitivity, to hit 105db (Dolby reference level for speakers, 115db for subs) peaks, taking room gain and distance to listening position into account, I need ~60 watts (less for the center as it has a higher sensitivity rating). My Onkyo 806 (review (http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/onkyo_tx-sr806_av_receiver/)) can do:

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 107.2 watts
1% distortion at 123.4 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 79.6 watts
1% distortion at 106.4 watts

So I am good, don't need an amp, been fooling myself.

Hey RobBas,

Now that you've been in possession of the new 60's for a few days now, do you have any personal feedback ( overall strengths/weaknesses )? I listened to them briefly last weekend at the dealer and I was really taken by them. I plan to go back and spend more time but I think I'm leaning towards these for my next purchase. It seems you are pretty happy with them from your posts.

Rick.

I will caveat this by saying I am not an audiophile, or an expert on speakers, nor do I try to be, I just know what I like. TBH, the only weakness I have found is sometimes they tend to be a little bright at very high volumes, but overall they sound more refined than the B&W CM 9($3000/pr), I would even venture to say they remind me of the PSB Sync One ($4500/pr) which is an amazing speaker. I mention those two speakers because we auditioned them. The low end on the 60's is amazing, I come from a car audio background so my expectations for bass are higher than the average person, on a few occasions I had to make sure my sub was off. These are the first set of >1k speakers I have owned so I am probably not a good source of comparison, but as mentioned, I know what I like, and I am really enjoying the 60's. Someone with a lot more experience can probably talk about the 60's better than I can. Anyhow I hope that helped.

one watt of power will drive the Sudio 100 v5s to about 90 db (ie. very loud) assuming you are ten feet away

no, thats just at 1 meter

Even with dynamic bursts (which are usually only significant on some classical music)

movies have a lot of dynamic burst, gunshots, explosions, etc.


Lets do some math. 3 meters = listening position.

90dB = 1w @ 1m
90dB = 2w @ 2m
90dB = 4w @ 3m

Now, say we a want a gunshot at 108dB (actually, thats low).
You double the power for each 3dB.

90dB = 4w
93dB = 8w
96dB = 16w
99dB = 32w
102dB = 64w
105dB = 128w
108dB = 256w

Thats 256w required for 108dB at 9.75'
(or 512w at 13')

;)

no, thats just at 1 meter



movies have a lot of dynamic burst, gunshots, explosions, etc.


Lets do some math. 3 meters = listening position.

90dB = 1w @ 1m
90dB = 2w @ 2m
90dB = 4w @ 3m
Now, say we a want a gunshot at 108dB (actually, thats low).
You double the power for each 3dB.

90dB = 4w
93dB = 8w
96dB = 16w
99dB = 32w
102dB = 64w
105dB = 128w
108dB = 256w

Thats 256w required for 108dB at 9.75'
(or 512w at 13')

;)

Don't you need to be doubling distance as well.

no, thats just at 1 meter

No, it's 10 feet. You can do the math right here:

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Enter 93db for sensitivity (see 100 v5 spec), 2 speakers, 1 watt, 10 feet, 2 speakers, near a wall.

As to your gunshot: using the actual math from the above site, it takes 74 wats to produce the 108db burst at 10 feet away using just the amp/receiver and TWO speakers. Meanwhile, you also have a sub amp to take much of the power-hungry low end away from the receiver. Also, the center and surrounds add even more sonic reinforcement.

Seriously... this is the most misunderstood measurement in Home Theater.

Well I'm off to buy my speakers! Five matching Studio 20 V.5 for my living room HT. These will be paired with a Denon 3808ci and a SVS PC Ultra13! They are in stock so I should be posting some initial impressions in about a week. :D

Just to give you another point of reference: 30 watts will get you to 108.1db at 10 feet with five speakers and no sub. With a sub, you only have to amplify the signal above the cross-over of your sub (probably 80Hz). As I said above, the lower frequencies draw more power because they have to push more air. So when you factor out the sub frequencies, your amp or receiver is even less taxed. Do you know why they don't put watt output meters on receivers and amps? It's easy to do... they just don't WANT to because you'd be shocked at how much of your usage is less than 1 watt and wouldn't want to upgrade to that 140 watt receiver because of the perception that it's so much better than 100 watt.

Well I'm off to buy my speakers! Five matching Studio 20 V.5 for my living room HT. These will be paired with a Denon 3808ci and a SVS PC Ultra13! They are in stock so I should be posting some initial impressions in about a week. :DConsider 4 20's and a dedicated center channel (CC590) speaker. I get the timbre matching argument, but they are designed for dialog and you'll probably be happier.

That linked calculator does back up my math. 256w = 107.4dB

That was with one speaker playing the sound (gunshot).

Im planing 3 Studio 20s across the front, powered by an equivalent Yamaha, so Im definitely looking forward to your review!


Well I'm off to buy my speakers! Five matching Studio 20 V.5 for my living room HT. These will be paired with a Denon 3808ci and a SVS PC Ultra13! They are in stock so I should be posting some initial impressions in about a week. :D

Edit: first paragraph deleted - rob fixed the post that I was questioning with an edit above.

But again, who listens to one speaker in an anechoic listening room with no sub? Oh well, sorry for getting off topic.

But again, who listens to one speaker in an anechoic listening room with no sub?
Now someone tells me I shouldn't have spent all that money on my anechoic home theater and one giant center channel!

Now someone tells me I shouldn't have spent all that money on my anechoic home theater and one giant center channel!

If you yell at the referees when watching a game, can you hear yourself? :D

I created an excel spreadsheet based on the algor in the SPL Calculator site... see this link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15518993&postcount=2863)for details, and the attachment. Hope it helps. Just edit the non-shaded cells.

Also, hitting 105 dB in a home theater is awfully loud (let alone 108 dB)... not many folks can sustain that volume. 10 under reference (peaks to 95 dB) is easier on the ears.

-T

I think you are making the assumption the speakers are 8 ohms across the 10 octaves. No such thing.
The combination of speakers +cross-over + connection cables have not a constant impedance – in ohms --. It varies with the source frequency. This means your amplifier or receiver must be able to handle the lowest impedance at some frequency ranges, otherwise you’ll have distortion.
To illustrate, here’s the graphic of Paradigm Studio 100 v.3 – Sorry, I could not find impedance graphs for Studios v.4 or v.5 –
http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/P100FIG1.jpg

As you can notice, at 100 Hz the impedance goes down to 2.5 ohms. So say your amp is rated 100W @ 8 ohms. ( P = V2/R) the Voltage applied to your speakers is SQRT(100*8) = 28.3 Volts. The same amplitude at 2.5 Ohms is: 800/2.5 = 320 Watts! A common receiver wont be able to handle this. This is why you need an amplifier for larger speakers. Decent Amplifiers can handle impedances as low as 2 ohms with at most 0.1% of THD.
Of course this can be mitigated by decreasing the volume, but then you might not like the sound...
Just my $0.2.
Tony

Just to give you another point of reference: 30 watts will get you to 108.1db at 10 feet with five speakers and no sub. With a sub, you only have to amplify the signal above the cross-over of your sub (probably 80Hz). As I said above, the lower frequencies draw more power because they have to push more air. So when you factor out the sub frequencies, your amp or receiver is even less taxed. Do you know why they don't put watt output meters on receivers and amps? It's easy to do... they just don't WANT to because you'd be shocked at how much of your usage is less than 1 watt and wouldn't want to upgrade to that 140 watt receiver because of the perception that it's so much better than 100 watt.I've almost given up posting on this subject, as no one wants to believe it. I have had meters attached to my system for years. (They used to be popular, back when amps were lower powered and speakers less efficient than they usually are today.) My amp rarely has to put out more than 2 watts in normal listening, even with action movies (and most guests want me to turn it down from what I call "normal"). I may hit 20 watts or so when I'm just experimenting, but my ears can't put up with those levels for long.

You nailed it when you said in an earlier post: "However, once you have enough power (which is often a lot lower than people think), more power has no effect on the sound whatsoever. If 100 watts is enough to power the speakers without distortion, 200 or 1000 watts will not sound better."

I concluded decades ago that anything over about 60 watts is unnecessary under most realistic circumstances, but, as I said, I've largely given up trying to make this point. :rolleyes:

Of course, there are many factors in amplifier design that come into play beyond power ratings, and these, rather than power per se, may influence how good a given amp will sound (especially with "difficult" speakers). Higher powered amps, especially seperates, tend to be better overall designs than lower powered ones, which helps feed the myth that higher power alone is the answer.

Still, this is and always has been a very subjective hobby. If people believe a 140 watt AVR will sound much more powerful than a 110 watt one, it will (to them). These claims are made with great conviction every day on AVS. Properly controlled, double blind listening tests would be unlikely to confirm these beliefs, but we don't ever listen that way in the real world. We know what we are listening to at home, and that knowledge influences what we "hear."

I'll concede that there may be a tiny number of people who actually can hear things the rest of us mere mortals do not, but I don't see much point in buying equipment to satisfy their rarified abilities, as I don't have them. That said, I'm guilty of doing it myself. It makes me feel better to know that a "golden ear" thinks my gear sounds better than something else, even if I can't detect the difference. :o

MacFan,

Thanks for your info - also thanks to the others as well.

So, here is my question (as I am trying very hard to understand all this)...

I am hooking up...

2 Studio 100s - Fronts
2 Studio 20s - Rears
1 Millenia 20 - Center

I want to use a Marantz SR6003.

Is this sufficient for high quality sound? Could I risk any speaker damage at normal to mildly loud listening levels?

I also will eventually be adding...

Replacing Millenia 20 with Studio CC690 as center...
Adding ADP590s x 2 for side surrounds...

I am assuming at that point adding an external amp such as the Emotiva XPA-3 to drive the fronts and center would be a good solution?

Please let me know if something is off in my thinking and any suggestions for changes would be very much apprecitated!

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help!

MacFan,

Thanks for your info - also thanks to the others as well.

So, here is my question (as I am trying very hard to understand all this)...

I am hooking up...

2 Studio 100s - Fronts
2 Studio 20s - Rears
1 Millenia 20 - Center

I want to use a Marantz SR6003.

Is this sufficient for high quality sound? Could I risk any speaker damage at normal to mildly loud listening levels?

I also will eventually be adding...

Replacing Millenia 20 with Studio CC690 as center...
Adding ADP590s x 2 for side surrounds...

I am assuming at that point adding an external amp such as the Emotiva XPA-3 to drive the fronts and center would be a good solution?

Please let me know if something is off in my thinking and any suggestions for changes would be very much apprecitated!

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help!
Loud levels add the amp also are you running them as large add the amp.

So, I should run them as small until I add an amp?

What about crossover? 80Hz? 60Hz? something else?

Thanks!

I just got a revised spec sheet from Paradigm in my inbox. Apparently the weight specs listed before were for the Studio v.4.

Revised specs are as follows:

Studio 10: 15.9 kg/ 35 lb per pair

Studio 20: 10.7 kg ea./ 24 lb ea.

Studio 60: 22.7 kg/ 50 lb ea.

Studio 100: 35.4 kg/ 78 lb ea.

CC-490: 12.2 kg/ 27 lb ea.

Esprit/Esprit C: 10.9 kg/ 24 lb ea.

CC-590: 17.7 kg/ 39 lb ea.

CC-690: 31.8 kg/ 70 lb ea.

ADP-590: 7.9 kg/ 18 lb ea.

Sub 12: 39.9 kg/ 88 lb ea.

Sub 15: 46.7 kg/ 103 lb ea.

Hopefully this helps someone.

thanks,
took a while to get it that way

Of course, there are many factors in amplifier design that come into play beyond power ratings, and these, rather than power per se, may influence how good a given amp will sound (especially with "difficult" speakers). Higher powered amps, especially seperates, tend to be better overall designs than lower powered ones, which helps feed the myth that higher power alone is the answer.

Bingo! But many of those factors are not quantifiable and can't be put on a spec sheet so you just don't hear about them. If your new 200 watt separate amp sounds better than your 120 watt AVR, it probaby has a lot more to do with signal path of the processor, the separate power supplies, and the internal components rather than the power. Yet wattage wins the day in marketing (see also Contrast Ratio on TVs).

And thanks for being another voice of reason. I never give up on trying to educate people about this because it bothers me how many people are fooled into buying huge amps for no good reason. I bought an Anthem PVA7 amp (100w x 7) years ago from a dealer for $900, and it can drive my system in my room to ear-splitting levels without distortion. It's just a shame that more amps that size and quality are not made, because people are spending $3k-$5k for something they don't need.

So, I should run them as small until I add an amp?

What about crossover? 80Hz? 60Hz? something else?

Thanks!

You did not mention a sub but I run mine at 70hz your room and ears may
dictate a different setting I tried from 50hz to 80hz found 70hz for my room
sub and listening taste to work great.

This sucks

I just get done building a shelf above my tv for the 690(still need to stain the wood).. plug my receiver back in(denon 3808) and it powers off and flashes red.

removed all the wires same thing called tech support tried the reset still no power.

just dropped it off at the repair center

i was so ready for this weeked hope it comes back soon

I had an old Pioneer receiver I picked up while in the USAF in the late 70's and it had about 120wpc and a blue floresent bar graph display that showed power output. As another pointed out the typical listening level for TV viewing would probably average about 100mW and the typical listening level while watching a heavy action movie would be more like 1W to 10W and usually closer to 1W. So, from that observation it would be easy to conclude that 10W-20W would be all you need per channel -- WRONG!

The transient power requirement are very often more than 10X the average power and can easily go much more than that. So, to have the desired headroom for an average listening level of, say 5W you would be advised to have 150W or more. Sound levels are non-linear and it's real easy to need 10 or even 100 times the power you think you need. If your average (maximum) listening level is 1W then you would be advised to have about an amp with 100wpc to give you that headroom.

As for me ... I have a new Pioneer SC-05 AVR with 130wpc which will tide me over for a while but I plan to get a seperate amp to drive the fronts and center or perhaps just the fronts. For that job and to match the Paradigm Studio 100's (v.5) power handling of 230wpc I want at least 200wpc or more. I may go with the Outlaw 2200 or perhaps the Emotiva XPA-2 or XPA-3. The XPA-2 would be the best power match for my needs at 250wpc (8 ohms, both channel driven) and at nearly 75 pounds is a bear of an amp with a heavy duty PS that should handle my needs perfectly. The only problem with the XPA's is that they are deep (19 inches or so) and that will force me to buy or build a new cabinet for it.


Brian


Brian

My problem is the ARM AND LEG Emotiva charges for shipping to Canada, etc...

A $599 amp becomes $1000+.

My problem is the ARM AND LEG Emotiva charges for shipping to Canada, etc...

A $599 amp becomes $1000+.


That can't be right. Is there an exchange rate issue because shipping can't be anywhere near $400 for a 100 pound package unless it's same day shipping. For an item that weighs that much ground shipping is the only reasonable way to go and even with insurance I can't see it costling more than $75 to ship it.

So, if it does in fact cost that much to ship why don't you come down for a visit and buy one locally.


Brian

...I bought an Anthem PVA7 amp (100w x 7) years ago from a dealer for $900, and it can drive my system in my room to ear-splitting levels without distortion. It's just a shame that more amps that size and quality are not made, because people are spending $3k-$5k for something they don't need.Yes, it really is a shame that there few "moderate" powered, high quality amps these days. But I guess they wouldn't sell now, even though speakers tend to be much more efficient than they used to be. I still have a couple of "antique" Luxman stereo amps. They weigh a ton, but are rated at "only" 75 wpc. I've never had a problem with them driving relatively inefficient speakers to realistic orchestral levels.

...The transient power requirement are very often more than 10X the average power and can easily go much more than that. So, to have the desired headroom for an average listening level of, say 5W you would be advised to have 150W or more. Sound levels are non-linear and it's real easy to need 10 or even 100 times the power you think you need. If your average (maximum) listening level is 1W then you would be advised to have about an amp with 100wpc to give you that headroom...No disagreement about that, but most AVRs can handle instantaneous peaks far above their rated continuous power. Manufacturers used to list those "instantaneous power output" ratings, but after a time they became as absurd as contrast ratios are now for TVs, and were dropped (possibly by FTC edict, I don't recall). One unfortunate aspect was that they tended to favor mediocre designs. Amps with heavy duty, well regulated power supplies tended to have less difference between their continuous and "instantaneous" outputs and couldn't/wouldn't make such outrageous claims.

There's more to be said, but I have already contributed too much toward hijacking this thread, so I'll drop it. :)

I will caveat this by saying I am not an audiophile, or an expert on speakers, nor do I try to be, I just know what I like. TBH, the only weakness I have found is sometimes they tend to be a little bright at very high volumes, but overall they sound more refined than the B&W CM 9($3000/pr), I would even venture to say they remind me of the PSB Sync One ($4500/pr) which is an amazing speaker. I mention those two speakers because we auditioned them. The low end on the 60's is amazing, I come from a car audio background so my expectations for bass are higher than the average person, on a few occasions I had to make sure my sub was off. These are the first set of >1k speakers I have owned so I am probably not a good source of comparison, but as mentioned, I know what I like, and I am really enjoying the 60's. Someone with a lot more experience can probably talk about the 60's better than I can. Anyhow I hope that helped.

Hey thanks for the writeup. I was surprised by the bass when I listened to these to be honest. The speakers sound much bigger than they look. Might have to do with the the higher excursion drivers they put in with the v.5s. Just speculating. I'm anxious to go back and do some more listening this weekend!

There's more to be said, but I have already contributed too much toward hijacking this thread, so I'll drop it. :)

Are you kidding? This thread is *great*! I've learned more about properly powering speakers in the last two pages than I have in the last 5 years. And as the thread's OP, that has to count for something. ;)

Anyways, it does seem like the v5 100s still want quite a bit of power. I'm planning on getting them ordered as soon as I have a free moment - and trying them out with my rx-z11. I have high hopes as a flagship AVR that some of the rules for "normal" avrs don't apply to that one (same with Denon 5308).

The z11 is rated at 140Wx7 + 50Wx4 (1,180W total). I'll set it up to "bi-amp" the main speakers. With the 100s - would you configure it for "large speaker" mode - or "small speaker" mode? I do have 2 servo-15v2 subs as well.

From the Manual:

Measure for the speaker size
The woofer section of a speaker is
– 16 cm (6.5 in) or larger: large
– smaller than 16 cm (6.5 in): small
THX Ltd. recommends you that you set “Front”, “Center”, “Surround”,
and “Surround Back” to “Small” and “Cross Over” to “80Hz (THX)”.
To select the crossover frequency of the speaker(s) manually, select
“Small” and then set “Cross Over” (see page 100).


Cheers to the some great posters!!!

_Scott

Hey...

It is $599...

plus $75 or so to ship...

plus duty charges...and a brokerage fee...

plus sales tax 13%...

plus exchange rate of 24%!

So it comes out to be over $1000.

That can't be right. Is there an exchange rate issue because shipping can't be anywhere near $400 for a 100 pound package unless it's same day shipping. For an item that weighs that much ground shipping is the only reasonable way to go and even with insurance I can't see it costling more than $75 to ship it.

So, if it does in fact cost that much to ship why don't you come down for a visit and buy one locally.


Brian

Consider 4 20's and a dedicated center channel (CC590) speaker. I get the timbre matching argument, but they are designed for dialog and you'll probably be happier.

I never understood this, wouldn't you want a center that is designed to for accurate reproduction of ALL sound (like the studio 20) instead of one that deviates from accurate sound reproduction in favor of clear dialog?

Nicwin, the center channel usage depends on your source: multichannel music (SACD or DVD-A) really don’t need the center channel: good L+R speakers create a virtual ‘stage’ right in between them, where the center is located. For DVD/Blu-ray movies, the center channel gets the dialog, so is vocal range (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocal_range)(80 – 1200 Hz).
Of course if you start using the surround modes ( EX, PLII, Neural, or THX) then you can alter the frequency allocations in your speakers, but this is not the ‘natural’ way.

plus exchange rate of 24%!To think if these speakers came out 4 months ago the exchange rate would have only been 2% :eek:

Hey...

It is $599...

plus $75 or so to ship...

plus duty charges...and a brokerage fee...

plus sales tax 13%...

plus exchange rate of 24%!

So it comes out to be over $1000.

Man, Canada seems to like to bend its citizens over and take tham analy -- do they at least give you a reach-around?


Brian

I never understood this, wouldn't you want a center that is designed to for accurate reproduction of ALL sound (like the studio 20) instead of one that deviates from accurate sound reproduction in favor of clear dialog?

The CC590 is a full range speaker that, IMO, performs better than a studio 20 for HT applications. Center channel speakers, in general, have different dispersion characteristic than the left/right speakers. So they do vocals well, as well as every other freq range.

-T

Man, Canada seems to like to bend its citizens over and take tham analy -- do they at least give you a reach-around?


Brian

Well, you can't do anything about the conversion. Besides, that is converted by the C/C company, so you gotta figure that out on your own.

As for sales tax, many states here come close, but the factor against this guy is he's paying a national sales tax and a provincial sales tax (like a state tax).

Brokerage fees can add up and really do suck. Literally paying a guy to walk a piece of gear of the border is ludacris. It can be avoided though....

Duty, hmmm...., well this goes both ways. Try ordering something made in Canada.

Long story short - importing can be a real pain.

Hey...

It is $599...

plus $75 or so to ship...

plus duty charges...and a brokerage fee...

plus sales tax 13%...

plus exchange rate of 24%!

So it comes out to be over $1000.

Check canuck audiomart....I got my 3 channel Parasound thru there. A good used amp would save you some $$$.

The z11 is rated at 140Wx7 + 50Wx4 (1,180W total). I'll set it up to "bi-amp" the main speakers. With the 100s - would you configure it for "large speaker" mode - or "small speaker" mode? I do have 2 servo-15v2 subs as well...As a rule, I advise the "Small", 80 Hz crossover mode. Exception might be if you run your subs hot, in which case setting the mains to Large may give a smoother, better balanced response for two channel music. Some people prefer Large as they claim to be able to locate the sub, even if they crossover at 80Hz, although lab tests do not support that (but, as I've said before, we don't all hear the same way).

The advantage of setting them Small is primarily that you lighten the workload on both the main speakers and the amp, resulting in less potential distortion and nearly eliminating the chance of the amp running out of power (bass is very power hungry; removing it from the equation lets the amp pretty much coast through the rest of the spectrum). It also insures that you hear all the bass that a movie has in those cases where there is bass encoded in the R/L channels that goes lower than your 100's can. All bass below the crossover is directed to the sub if the mains are set to small.

If Yamaha offers the option, a good compromise might be to crossover the 100's at a lower frequency (e.g. 40Hz) and the rest at 80 Hz. Not all AVRs support that, though.

Bi-amping your Z11 should give you plenty of power in any case, something in excess of 200 watts. (Usually, bi-amping an AVR doesn't double the available power; the exact increase varies by make and model but I'd guess the Z11 comes closer than most). My daughter bi-amps her 100's with a less capable receiver, and they sound great, even when she plays them in the power hungry full range mode.

Nicwin, the center channel usage depends on your source: multichannel music (SACD or DVD-A) really don’t need the center channel: good L+R speakers create a virtual ‘stage’ right in between them, where the center is located. I strongly disagree. Original development of multichannel "stereo" at Bell Labs and at the BBC stated that 3 channels was the minimum for adequate "stereo" but, due to the technological limit of handling only 2 channels, "stereo" was released as an acknowledged compromise. All you have to do is a direct comparison of the 2 channel and 3 channel tracks of the better discs from the RCA Living Stereo and Mercury Living Presence SACD series' to hear the improvement in sound stage and imaging with a discrete center signal and speaker.

The CC590 is a full range speaker that, IMO, performs better than a studio 20 for HT applications. Center channel speakers, in general, have different dispersion characteristic than the left/right speakers. So they do vocals well, as well as every other freq range.Really. Some center speakers, like the CC590, are competently designed to compensate for the unfortunate horizontal arrangement/construction that is imposed on many users in order to accommodate a display. In fact, and as confirmed by the observation that virtually every high-quality stand-alone speaker is a vertical array, it would be better to have a regular (vertically-oriented) speaker in the center, if at all possible.

Centers are not designed to do anything better than regular speakers; they are designed to make the best of an unfortunate situation. Ideally, for sound, all the speakers would be identical (and not horizontal).

Really. Some center speakers, like the CC590, are competently designed to compensate for the unfortunate horizontal arrangement/construction that is imposed on many users in order to accommodate a display. In fact, and as confirmed by the observation that virtually every high-quality stand-alone speaker is a vertical array, it would be better to have a regular (vertically-oriented) speaker in the center, if at all possible.

Centers are not designed to do anything better than regular speakers; they are designed to make the best of an unfortunate situation. Ideally, for sound, all the speakers would be identical (and not horizontal).

So I should go w/ a 3rd Studio 100 instead of a CC-690?

So I should go w/ a 3rd Studio 100 instead of a CC-690?IMHO, yes, if you can accommodate it. I am using 3 Studio 60s in one system and 3 B&W 802Ds in the other. As close as one can get to a seamless soundstage!

IMHO, yes, if you can accommodate it. I am using 3 Studio 60s in one system and 3 B&W 802Ds in the other. As close as one can get to a seamless soundstage!

Yeah I'm sure Studio 60's would be fine in my room. I should probably save the money and get those over the 100's. I just keep saying I want the 100's, lol. It's only a 15x17 fully enclosed room, w/ 2 MFW 15's for subs.

IMHO, yes, if you can accommodate it. I am using 3 Studio 60s in one system and 3 B&W 802Ds in the other. As close as one can get to a seamless soundstage!

Which Stuido version are your 60s?

I strongly disagree. Original development of multichannel "stereo" at Bell Labs and at the BBC stated that 3 channels was the minimum for adequate "stereo" but, due to the technological limit of handling only 2 channels, "stereo" was released as an acknowledged compromise. All you have to do is a direct comparison of the 2 channel and 3 channel tracks of the better discs from the RCA Living Stereo and Mercury Living Presence SACD series' to hear the improvement in sound stage and imaging with a discrete center signal and speaker.Kal - your history is correct, but there just isn't any 3 channel music outside of specialty discs. For two channel music listening the center channel isn't an issue (because it isn't doing anything).

For home theater usage, I agree with you in the sense that 3 full range speakers that are identical are best, but when sticking to a budget I find a large center channel and two monitors a great compromise.

This thread has morphed into HT 101, lots of good stuff, not complaining, but if it's one thing I have learned is that there is no clear cut answer to anything. For every point there is a counter point, for me, it's simple, I am happy with the stuff I have and that's all that should matter, stop worrying about what your missing and enjoy what you have :)

Really. Some center speakers, like the CC590, are competently designed to compensate for the unfortunate horizontal arrangement/construction that is imposed on many users in order to accommodate a display. In fact, and as confirmed by the observation that virtually every high-quality stand-alone speaker is a vertical array, it would be better to have a regular (vertically-oriented) speaker in the center, if at all possible.

Centers are not designed to do anything better than regular speakers; they are designed to make the best of an unfortunate situation. Ideally, for sound, all the speakers would be identical (and not horizontal).

I agree. The gist of my post was the CC590 was full range, so there is no real need for a Studio 20 as a center like one member suggested. But yeah, the ideal is to have L/C/R to be the same speaker, and the same height... but that is rarely attained for HT.

-T

EDIT:
While identical L/C/R speakers is supposed to be the ideal, I was not saying a studio 20 center would be better/worse than a CC590. I've heard neither.

Which Stuido version are your 60s?v3. expecting v5 shortly for review.

Kal - your history is correct, but there just isn't any 3 channel music outside of specialty discs. For two channel music listening the center channel isn't an issue (because it isn't doing anything).

For home theater usage, I agree with you in the sense that 3 full range speakers that are identical are best, but when sticking to a budget I find a large center channel and two monitors a great compromise.Sure, but every 5.1 music disc benefits from having the center channel/speaker, as well.

Hi Kal, once you complete the evaluation of the Paradigm Studios v.5, how long does it take to get published? Do you have a tentative date?

Hi Kal, once you complete the evaluation of the Paradigm Studios v.5, how long does it take to get published? Do you have a tentative date?I have no idea.
1. They have not yet arrived in NY.
2. I have to ferry them up to CT.
3. I have to set them up and listen.
4. I have to write the review.
5. Review appears 60-90 days after 4!

I have no idea.
1. They have not yet arrived in NY.
2. I have to ferry them up to CT.
3. I have to set them up and listen.
4. I have to write the review.
5. Review appears 60-90 days after 4!

You are too funny...

OK so by my count that means we will not see the review till......July at the earliest, September at the latest but most likely in August.

Next question...

You are too funny...

OK so by my count that means we will not see the review till......July at the earliest, September at the latest but most likely in August.But only if you buy and read all the intervening issues. ;)

Really. Some center speakers, like the CC590, are competently designed to compensate for the unfortunate horizontal arrangement/construction that is imposed on many users in order to accommodate a display. In fact, and as confirmed by the observation that virtually every high-quality stand-alone speaker is a vertical array, it would be better to have a regular (vertically-oriented) speaker in the center, if at all possible.

Centers are not designed to do anything better than regular speakers; they are designed to make the best of an unfortunate situation. Ideally, for sound, all the speakers would be identical (and not horizontal).

This is my opinion also. I understand not all people can fit a vertical center in there set ups, but if you can you really should.

I even asked a Paradigm tech about this and he said he would personally take a 3rd studio 20 v4 over a cc-590 v4 (with 20 mains) without even factoring in the price difference

Kal - your history is correct, but there just isn't any 3 channel music outside of specialty discs. For two channel music listening the center channel isn't an issue (because it isn't doing anything).

For home theater usage, I agree with you in the sense that 3 full range speakers that are identical are best, but when sticking to a budget I find a large center channel and two monitors a great compromise.

It depends on what your mains are. You could get a single studio 20 (v4) for $375 compared at over $1000 for the cc-590, and the studio 20 will most likely sound better.

But only if you buy and read all the intervening issues. ;)

Now where did I put that little subscription tab from last months issue?

You could get a single studio 20 (v4) for $375 compared at over $1000 for the cc-590, and the studio 20 will most likely sound better.

So, to ask a logical question(to me, at least:confused:), why does the CC-590 cost so much more? I ordered the Studio 60 for my mains and the CC-590 for the center(all v5). The MSRP for the center is $200 more than the mains. What makes up that price difference? Being a smaller speaker than the mains, I would think the pricing would be the other way around.

where/ how do you get single speaker. I would love to replace my cc 690 with 3rd studio 60, buy can't find it.

I have no idea.
1. They have not yet arrived in NY.
2. I have to ferry them up to CT.
3. I have to set them up and listen.
4. I have to write the review.
5. Review appears 60-90 days after 4!


Kal, if you would like, id be more then happy to fly in and help you out - or should I say bug the CR@P out of ya during my so called assistance... :) Being the Paradigm fanboy that I am... I'll buy ya dinner and drinks... :D

I got the CC490 v.5 to go with my Studio 60s v.5 as the woofers are of the same size (5.5 inch). The dealer told me this would sound more integrated than the CC590, which use 7 inch woofers, same as 100s v.5.

Question on breakin-in my Studio v.5: One dealer told me the Studios would need 100 hrs, while the one I bought mine told me 5 hrs? Which one is right? I even have read break-in is a myth...

Kal, if you would like, id be more then happy to fly in and help you out - or should I say bug the CR@P out of ya during my so called assistance... :)There's already a long line of folks assembled to "bug the CR@P out of ya ."

Being the Paradigm fanboy that I am... I'll buy ya dinner and drinks... :DThanks but I eat too well already. :D

I got the CC490 v.5 to go with my Studio 60s v.5 as the woofers are of the same size (5.5 inch). The dealer told me this would sound more integrated than the CC590, which use 7 inch woofers, same as 100s v.5.Sure. :rolleyes:

Question on breakin-in my Studio v.5: One dealer told me the Studios would need 100 hrs, while the one I bought mine told me 5 hrs? Which one is right? I even have read break-in is a myth...You should have shopped until you found a dealer whose stock did not require any break-in. :D

Question for all those that believe in hours of break in what is there to stop this process
once the magic hour is obtained?

There's already a long line of folks assembled to "bug the CR@P out of ya ."

Thanks but I eat too well already. :D


You and me Both my friend.... Lookin forward to your review... As usual

Also lookin forward to my own review...

Got a Wyred4Sound amp arriving this week, with the modified 1000ASP B&O modules to compare with my D-Sonic - non Modified (Stock) 1000ASP modules... I know you are a fan... with your grotesque stack of Bel Canto's... 1 & 2 :) Curious as to how are the comparisons coming along between the 2....

Also, have you gotten a taste of how the Paradigm Sig .v2 sound yet.... That Be tweet is pretty spectacular - truly ribbon like, without the beaming tendencies ass. with the ribbon... Although I have grown to truly appreciate the Ribbon deployed on the Salk RT Song Towers.... Same as the HT3's, they are extremely pleasing to the ears.....


Patrick

It depends on what your mains are. You could get a single studio 20 (v4) for $375 compared at over $1000 for the cc-590, and the studio 20 will most likely sound better.
Sorry, I'm not buying that. A full range center versus the 20's makes little sense when 60% of all the sound comes from the center channel, is nothing more than crippling my HT performance. The bass drivers of the 20's matches the CC690's- and the additional power handling will make the dialogue/effects significantly more audible.

In a perfect world, I'd have the money for three Studio 100's, but I'll take the CC690 and two 20's over three 20's.

where/ how do you get single speaker. I would love to replace my cc 690 with 3rd studio 60, buy can't find it.Why would you want to replace a true 3 way center channel with a 2 1/2 way center channel? I'll take my Studio 20's and CC690 over three 60's any day, though I'd take your CURRENT setup over mine any day.

I know you are a fan... with your grotesque stack of Bel Canto's... 1 & 2 :) Curious as to how are the comparisons coming along between the 2....
March issue. Just out.

Sorry, I'm not buying that. A full range center versus the 20's makes little sense when 60% of all the sound comes from the center channel, is nothing more than crippling my HT performance. The bass drivers of the 20's matches the CC690's- and the additional power handling will make the dialogue/effects significantly more audible.

In a perfect world, I'd have the money for three Studio 100's, but I'll take the CC690 and two 20's over three 20's.

And that is one problem with the "3 identical LCR" rule of thumb. Great advice if the LCRs are huge and capable for HT... but falls apart as the LCRs become smaller since the center will eventually become the weak link.

-T

And that is one problem with the "3 identical LCR" rule of thumb. Great advice if the LCRs are huge and capable for HT... but falls apart as the LCRs become smaller since the center will eventually become the weak link.

-T

We will see if the Studio 20 is up to the task in less than a week! If not then I can use it as another rear channel for 6.1 :)

Why would you want to replace a true 3 way center channel with a 2 1/2 way center channel? I'll take my Studio 20's and CC690 over three 60's any day, though I'd take your CURRENT setup over mine any day.

I have an AT' screen, with this setup something seems out of tune. I've been hearing from people that have 3 of the same that it is huge differance.
I guess I could try 3 cc-690 vertical :)...

Thanks everyone, yall have solved my dilemma of getting a 690 vs a 100 for the center channel, lol. 3rd 100 it is!

It depends on what your mains are. You could get a single studio 20 (v4) for $375 compared at over $1000 for the cc-590, and the studio 20 will most likely sound better.

That is doubtful IMO. LCR exact matching is highly over-rated for movies, unless all the speakers are GOOD ones. If you have to skimp, the way movie sound is mixed these days, the center is the LAST place to do it. The vast majority of sound for 5.1/6.1/7.1 soundtracks comes from the center. IME better to skip the center completely if you can't do it well...then you will get good front "matching" for sure. :)

All,

I have been been in market for speakers over 3 months. I have auditioned Dynaudio, PSB Synchrony, B&Ws, Mirage, Rever F32s, Totem etc and have finally settled on Paradigm Studio. Absolutely love them.

I was hoping you could help me in configuring my setup. Here are the details that might be helpful:

My Equipment: Onkyo TX-SR706 Receiver, Home Theater PC with a Blu-ray drive, Outputting Uncompressed 8 channel LPCM over HDMI to my receiver. I also have a SVS SB12 Plus Sub that I plan to keep.

My use: 70% movies, 30% music. Within music I play lot of Flamenco, Acoustic Guitar, New Age/Fusion

My Room: I live in a 1BR urban DC apartment with shared walls. My HT is installed in my living room, which is 25 feet by 12 feet. However the living room is not fully enclosed and has lot of openings. I sit about 8 feet away from the front of my speakers/ TV. Considering the shared walls situation, while watching moving I keep it moderately loud (85 - 90 db)

What am I looking at:
Front: Debating Studio 20 v5 or Studio 60 v5
Center: Due to size considering CC-490. But if you thought that is very suboptimal, I could accommodate CC-590
Surrounds: Considering Studio 10 v5

Look forward to your inputs.

As a rule, I advise the "Small", 80 Hz crossover mode. Exception might be if you run your subs hot, in which case setting the mains to Large may give a smoother, better balanced response for two channel music. Some people prefer Large as they claim to be able to locate the sub, even if they crossover at 80Hz, although lab tests do not support that (but, as I've said before, we don't all hear the same way).

The advantage of setting them Small is primarily that you lighten the workload on both the main speakers and the amp, resulting in less potential distortion and nearly eliminating the chance of the amp running out of power (bass is very power hungry; removing it from the equation lets the amp pretty much coast through the rest of the spectrum). It also insures that you hear all the bass that a movie has in those cases where there is bass encoded in the R/L channels that goes lower than your 100's can. All bass below the crossover is directed to the sub if the mains are set to small.

If Yamaha offers the option, a good compromise might be to crossover the 100's at a lower frequency (e.g. 40Hz) and the rest at 80 Hz. Not all AVRs support that, though.

Bi-amping your Z11 should give you plenty of power in any case, something in excess of 200 watts. (Usually, bi-amping an AVR doesn't double the available power; the exact increase varies by make and model but I'd guess the Z11 comes closer than most). My daughter bi-amps her 100's with a less capable receiver, and they sound great, even when she plays them in the power hungry full range mode.

Excellent! :) Great post - I actually understand the real differences now. :) The Z-11 does have highly configurable crossover frequencies - so I can play with the various levels.

Thanks again!

this thread has morphed into ht 101, lots of good stuff, not complaining, but if it's one thing i have learned is that there is no clear cut answer to anything. For every point there is a counter point, for me, it's simple, i am happy with the stuff i have and that's all that should matter, stop worrying about what your missing and enjoy what you have :)+1

So based on what I am reading, I have the 60's and cc-690, so instead of 80hz crossover, I should use say 50Hz? What's the logic behind the THX recommending 80Hz then?

I have an AT' screen, with this setup something seems out of tune. I've been hearing from people that have 3 of the same that it is huge differance.
I guess I could try 3 cc-690 vertical :)...I have an AT screen as well. I have (for about another week) PSB B25's L/R and the C60 center. I borrowed a dealers B25 for about a week as the center channel and was watched about four movies during that time - the B25 center just didn't have the gravitas to handle loud scenes - and I'm not saying explosion loud, but when people are yelling at one another. The B25's are great L/R speakers, because during loud scenes their only asked to handle a small percentage of the sound, but that center is so important.

I would love to have the money for three Studio 100's but I don't.

So based on what I am reading, I have the 60's and cc-690, so instead of 80hz crossover, I should use say 50Hz? Depend on the in-room response. AudysseyPro recommends 50Hz for my L/R 60s and 45Hz for the center 60.

What's the logic behind the THX recommending 80Hz then?Generic solution for all THX equipment.

So based on what I am reading, I have the 60's and cc-690, so instead of 80hz crossover, I should use say 50Hz? What's the logic behind the THX recommending 80Hz then?Remember the crossover isn't exact. By that I mean if you set the crossover at 80 hz, not every iota of sound below 80 goes to the sub and everything above goes to the monitors. Instead, it's a curve, so the sub blends with the monitors.

IMO, the 60's are spec'd to go to 45 hz, so I wouldn't even consider a 50 hz crossover. Stick with THX and the 80 hz recommendation.

IMO, the 60's are spec'd to go to 45 hz, so I wouldn't even consider a 50 hz crossover. Unless you measure them in situ and the response tells you to. Otherwise, 80Hz is a good guideline.

where/ how do you get single speaker. I would love to replace my cc 690 with 3rd studio 60, buy can't find it.

Just talk to you dealer about it. It was less of an issue with the v4's as the dealer could order a single speaker, but apparently the v5s are currently only sold as pairs. One dealer I talked to was willing to order a pair of v5's and sell me a single for half price though, so just ask around

My opinion might be a little different because I use my HT for both movies and multi-channel music. When I bought my speakers my dealer set up two cc-590s in a stereo configuration so I could compare it to the stereo models, and IMHO they sounded nowhere near as good as the 60's or even the 20's with music in that configuration (including vocals). The horizontal layout just isn't ideal. If your using it for strictly HT than it makes sense that the extra driver surface area a 590 would be better than a 20 in terms of dynamics, but from my own listening experience a 60 or a 100 would be a better choice. I have been using a 20 in my HT for a while now, and I have never had any issues with it sounding strained even when being pushed pretty hard (I do have a pretty small room though). Whats the benefit of having a full range center when you when you have the low end crossed over to the sub anyways?

When I ran Audyssey it set the mains and the center to full range, I will put it back to the 80Hz guideline, at 50, even 60, the overall system sounded better, aren't the 60's and cc-690 full range speakers?

When I ran Audyssey it set the mains and the center to full range, I will put it back to the 80Hz guideline, at 50, even 60, the overall system sounded better, aren't the 60's and cc-690 full range speakers?


yeah they are, but when you cross them over to the sub it puts less strain on the speakers drivers and gives you a little more headroom with your amp. That maybe why they sounded better crossed over.

When I ran Audyssey it set the mains and the center to full range, I will put it back to the 80Hz guideline, at 50, even 60, the overall system sounded better, aren't the 60's and cc-690 full range speakers?

If the material has lower than 40hz doubt it will be delivered with any impact
while at the same time sucking your amp or receiver's power reserves almost
dry.

Are the new Paradigm v.5 Subwoofers good for music? They're expensive; I've read they are good, but there are better options at lower cost, like Hsus, Rhytmiks and SVSes. I've also read any medium priced subwoofer is fine for movies, but not all do well in music.

Are the new Paradigm v.5 Subwoofers good for music? They're expensive; I've read they are good, but there are better options at lower cost, like Hsus, Rhytmiks and SVSes. I've also read any medium priced subwoofer is fine for movies, but not all do well in music.

Although the Servo-15 is considered a very musical sub no one has seen a review of the new sub12 or 15 so its speculation at this point.

This is a little off topic but I think its worth posting... I just rewired my speakers in preparation for my five new studio 20 V.5 which should be in sometime this week. I replaced my old run of the mill 16 gauge wire with Blue Jeans cable 10 gauge. I cut the front three speaker wires equal length and the back two equal with each other. I know wire length and gauge is controversial but I have to say with out any doubt that the new wire made a difference in sound quality with my current Paradigm Titan/cc-70/micro set. I have spent A LOT of time lately doing careful listening in order to dial in my sub woofer and finalize speaker locations. The sound now is more detailed and polite with improved realism and sound stage. Its hard to explain but I feel more immersed in the sound and am noticing the "atmosphere" in movies more than before. It seems that wires do in fact have an influence on sound which contradicts the many articles and posts I have read on-line. Anyway, my current speakers are now sounding pretty good so I can hardly wait to hear what the new V.5's can do!!! :cool:

I also experienced improvement from replacing my cheap AWG 16 Radio Shack cheap speakers cables with Monster AWG 14 cable. What I remember from my electrical enginering classes on cables we 'model' them as resistors for simplicity, but in reality these are LCR networks ( Inductance, Capacitance and Resistance) so depending on materials, the braiding, the dielectric will affect the signal carried. But at low frequencies (audio) the effects are neglectible. So I dont believe a $1000/m silver cable will 'sound' better than a decent $1/m speaker cable -- like Blue Jeans or Monster --

I know wire length and gauge is controversial but I have to say with out any doubt that the new wire made a difference in sound quality with my current Paradigm Titan/cc-70/micro set. I have spent A LOT of time lately doing careful listening in order to dial in my sub woofer and finalize speaker locations. The sound now is more detailed and polite with improved realism and sound stage. Its hard to explain but I feel more immersed in the sound and am noticing the "atmosphere" in movies more than before. It seems that wires do in fact have an influence on sound which contradicts the many articles and posts I have read on-line.
I have NEVER read any thread on AVS with a controversy over speaker wire length or gauge.

I have been involved in many discussions telling people that you can't hear a difference between two speaker wires of the "same length, same gauge" - and when I say length I mean comparing a 10 ft with a 100 ft wire. This also assumes you aren't getting crappy tin speaker cables, but comparing 99.99% pure copper cables.

Lower gauge = less resistance.

It's no wonder you heard a difference.

I have NEVER read any thread on AVS with a controversy over speaker wire length or gauge.

Consider yourself lucky then, because there's plenty of controversy in some threads. Some people think 12 gauge speaker wire sounds better than 16 for a short run, and others do not. Some people think the "quality" of the copper or shielding makes a big difference. Others do not. To me, this is the same as the amp discussion:

Amps: if the amp can play without distortion, 2000 watts isn't going to sound better than 200.

Speaker wire: if wire limitations don't degrade the signal, 12 gauge isn't going to sound better than 16 gauge.

16 gauge is fine for even a 2 ohm load for up to 12 feet (and 24 feet for a 4 ohm load). Those are conservative numbers Roger Russell (former McIntosh Laboratory loudspeaker designer). I've seen it as high as 80 feet for 16 gauge.

Do yourself a favor and read this whole writeup: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

As to why people like to buy high end cable? From Roger's article:

Looking at this from a different perspective, there will always be those who will want expensive wire, not because there is an audible difference, but because they may value pride of ownership and prestige in a similar way to that of owning a Tiffany lamp or a Rolex watch

Come to think of it, I bet more people buy high end speaker wire because of misleading marketing or misinformation than a desire for pride of ownership. That's the sad thing when I see people shell out $1.50 a foot for Monster cable.

I have used heavier gauge wire than needed not because it will make any measureable difference but becuase the price difference, using Blue Jeans speaker cable, just didn't justify going the cheap route. In my case 14ga wire would have been adequate as my system has about 12 foot runs to my fronts (Studio 100's v.5) and 35 foot runs to my surrounds (Studio 20's v.5). I bought about 40 feet of 10ga wire and 80 feet of 12ga wire from Blue Jeans and know that there is NO CHANCE IN H*LL that the wire will be a problem.


Brian

Come to think of it, I bet more people buy high end speaker wire because of misleading marketing or misinformation than a desire for pride of ownership. Marketing successfully creates the pride of ownership issue, or at least creates enough doubt about "ordinary" speaker wire to cause people to overspend as "insurance." (I've done it too.:o)

For those who don't know, Roger Russell is a noted speaker designer, not just a hobbyist with a blog. Many of us have posted links to his article countless times on AVS, to what effect I'm not sure. If anyone doesn't want to read the whole thing, at least scroll down a little and look at the chart.

Marketing successfully creates the pride of ownership issue, or at least creates enough doubt about "ordinary" speaker wire to cause people to overspend as "insurance." (I've done it too.:o)

For those who don't know, Roger Russell is a noted speaker designer, not just a hobbyist with a blog. Many of us have posted links to his article countless times on AVS, to what effect I'm not sure. If anyone doesn't want to read the whole thing, at least scroll down a little and look at the chart.

It doesn't help that his web site looks like it was made in 1996 with Frontpage. :) The info is great though... We should have a prerequisite sticky for AVS with all the appropriate mythbuster info.

Hi all!

I drove 600 miles this weekend to hear the new v.5 Studio 100's ,690CC, and ADP590's and I liked what I heard.

I have a Pioneer SC-07 as my pre-out and to drive the 2 ADP-590's in the 5.1 system I'm building but I need to know what the best Amplifier is to drive the 100's and 690 as they sound WAY better with some serious power behind them.

Also I am looking to use the SVS PB13 ultra as my sub with this system but my room is only 12x18 ft, is my room to small for this sub?