I'm soon going to be buying my first camcorder. I'm currently debating between the Canon HF10, Sony SR11 and Sony CX12 as these seem to be regarded very highly around here.

I think I like what I'm reading about the Canon the most, but it seems to be missing two important things (both of which the Sony ones have)

The first is 5.1 audio recording. I don't know if for amateur recordings (baby stuff and vacationing) if that will have a big impact. The second is a viewfinder.

Do people who have them really appreciate those two features? Do people with the Canon miss them a lot? Or do people find that these features really aren't all that important?

I'm looking for any help in making my decision as camcorders are completely new to me.

Thanks in advance.

I'm soon going to be buying my first camcorder. I'm currently debating between the Canon HF10, Sony SR11 and Sony CX12 as these seem to be regarded very highly around here.

I think I like what I'm reading about the Canon the most, but it seems to be missing two important things (both of which the Sony ones have)

The first is 5.1 audio recording. I don't know if for amateur recordings (baby stuff and vacationing) if that will have a big impact. The second is a viewfinder.

Do people who have them really appreciate those two features? Do people with the Canon miss them a lot? Or do people find that these features really aren't all that important?

I'm looking for any help in making my decision as camcorders are completely new to me.

Thanks in advance.
Regarding the sound some rave about it but i could take it or leave it on my SR12.But how people film without a viewfinder amazes me the SR12 has a very bright one but outdoors i can not film at all with mine,i am not saying they dont manage but my eyes are not too bad but even having to use my lcd for menus etc is a struggle at times.One thing i will say is the SR11/12 have great pictures not that i am knocking the canons.It is best if you way up all the options.

The 5.1 sound on these cams do give you somewhat of a 360 degree path. It's nothing like a real 5.1 track.... for that you need the proper spread on the mics. But it does work. You should be aware however that some of the cams are ACTUALLY not quite 5.1.... they are missing the LFE channel so it's really 5.0 surround. It makes little difference since most surround sound playback systems send the lows from each channel to the subWoofer anyway. And not withstanding... the LFE channel is not (and never has been) part of the official dolby spec.

Viewfinders are disappearing from consumer level cams at a rather high rate of speed and I'm probably one of the few that find that a bit disappointing. These cams are getting smaller and viewfinders are in the way of shrinking the size even greater.... and that why they're going. Most people don't miss nthem because they're hardly used anyway but I like to use one when i need a really steady shot (I can brace the cam against my head) or when the Sun makes the LCD screen all but useless.

Thanks for the responses.

As to the viewfinders, how similar are they to the eye port on digital cameras? Basically what I'm asking, if I only use the LCD screen on my digital camera even when I'm outside, does that mean I'll likely never use the viewfinder? Or is that more an apples to oranges type comparison?

Thanks again.

You should consider the Panasonic HDC-HS100 as well. It's got 5.1 audio and a viewfinder, and blows my Sony HDR-HC7 out of the water. It comes with a 60GB HDD, but can take up to a 32GB SD card as well. There's also a model without the HDD and just takes the SD card, and that unit is a bit lighter than mine. Either of them are way lighter than any HDV unit.

I'm uploading some footage now and will post the links on the HS100 thread.

Regarding the sound some rave about it but i could take it or leave it on my SR12.But how people film without a viewfinder amazes me the SR12 has a very bright one but outdoors i can not film at all with mine,i am not saying they dont manage but my eyes are not too bad but even having to use my lcd for menus etc is a struggle at times.One thing i will say is the SR11/12 have great pictures not that i am knocking the canons.It is best if you way up all the options.
I must mention my SR 12 has superior picture quality to my hc1 and my prosumer FX-7,I think lcds on quality digital stills cameras bear no relation to camcorder lcds

I can't comment on the 5.1 sound as I don't have surround sound set up at home.

I do have the Sony CX12 and don't mind not having a viewfinder. Most of my use has been indoors so far but I have taken it outside and used it with direct sunlight on the LCD screen to see how bad it washed out and it wasn't bad at all, I could still see everything just fine. I'm assuming that there is technology working for me there to keep it viewable in such conditions.

So, again, no issues here with my CX12 in direct sunlight without a viewfinder.

You should consider the Panasonic HDC-HS100 as well. It's got 5.1 audio and a viewfinder, and blows my Sony HDR-HC7 out of the water. It comes with a 60GB HDD, but can take up to a 32GB SD card as well. There's also a model without the HDD and just takes the SD card, and that unit is a bit lighter than mine. Either of them are way lighter than any HDV unit.

I'm uploading some footage now and will post the links on the HS100 thread.

I just posted some links of Panasonic HDC-HS100 footage in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1062485

The clips have 5.1 audio though I'm not sure if there's any way you can hear the 5.1 if you don't have the camcorder. Myself, I haven't even head it yet since I don't have a HDMI-enabled A/V receiver. Hope to rectify that soon though when I move into my new house and get a lot of new gear :D

I just posted some links of Panasonic HDC-HS100 footage in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1062485

The clips have 5.1 audio though I'm not sure if there's any way you can hear the 5.1 if you don't have the camcorder.

(I posted this in your link thread as well)

I took the liberty of downloading your test number 3. I demuxed the 5.1 audio and brought it into Adobe Audition for those to see the 5.1 audio visually. The AC3 file was broken down into WAV files and as you can see in the screen shot, there are 6 distinctly different WAV files which would indicate that the 5.1 audio DOES work as advertised on these cams.

http://forums.pinnaclesys.com/forums/storage/143/170425/Cropped.jpg

(I posted this in your link thread as well)

I took the liberty of downloading your test number 3. I demuxed the 5.1 audio and brought it into Adobe Audition for those to see the 5.1 audio visually. The AC3 file was broken down into WAV files and as you can see in the screen shot, there are 6 distinctly different WAV files which would indicate that the 5.1 audio DOES work as advertised on these cams.

http://forums.pinnaclesys.com/forums/storage/143/170425/Cropped.jpg

Thanks a lot bigbarney! Yes, actually, I played my clips off my PS3 yesterday after hooking it up with a FAT32 HDD and noticed the 5.1 right away! So I know for sure it works.

Actually what's cool is that if you (holding the camera) is talking to someone on-screen, your voice will come out of the surround speakers while the voice of the person on screen will be coming out of the front and center speakers. Pretty cool!

The Panasonic HDC-HS100 also has mic options for "Zoom" and "Focus". I won't try to explain their function in my own words so here are the definitions that are directly from the camera:

Zoom Mic - Coupled with zooming, the sound in front will be recorded more clearly as the camera zooms in.

Focus Mic - Record the sound in front more clearly. (Surround sound will be reduced).

I haven't tried these options yet, but they are good to have. For example, if I am recording say my daughter's school play or musical, I would probably choose the Focus Mic so that I get more the sounds of the school production than that of the audience clapping, sneezing, talking on the phone, etc. :D

I'm soon going to be buying my first camcorder. I'm currently debating between the Canon HF10, Sony SR11 and Sony CX12 as these seem to be regarded very highly around here.

I think I like what I'm reading about the Canon the most, but it seems to be missing two important things (both of which the Sony ones have)

The first is 5.1 audio recording. I don't know if for amateur recordings (baby stuff and vacationing) if that will have a big impact. The second is a viewfinder.

Do people who have them really appreciate those two features? Do people with the Canon miss them a lot? Or do people find that these features really aren't all that important?

I'm looking for any help in making my decision as camcorders are completely new to me.

Thanks in advance.

Just my 2 cents, 5.1 audio is probably gimick and viewfinder to me is indispensable.
I find home movies most enjoyable to watch when audio is edited, usually replaced with music, so the original 5.1 maybe a moot point. And viewfinder is crucial for getting steady shot in HD, I use it almost exclusively. When my friends see my HD video a lot them think I had the tripod on.

Just my 2 cents, 5.1 audio is probably gimick and viewfinder to me is indispensable..

Whatever gimmick it is, works very well for the home. One of the first events I took with my SD9 was a Saturday morning parade. Overcast clouds didn't seem to diminish the color one bit, and after the Panny's HDWriter converted my DVD for playback on my HT system. I got 5 distinct channels of surround, coming thru the correct channels, and even heard engine rumble from my subwoofer.

Whatever gimmick it is, works very well for the home. One of the first events I took with my SD9 was a Saturday morning parade. Overcast clouds didn't seem to diminish the color one bit, and after the Panny's HDWriter converted my DVD for playback on my HT system. I got 5 distinct channels of surround, coming thru the correct channels, and even heard engine rumble from my subwoofer.

Agreed.

I don't look at it as a "gimmick" at all. Sound is pretty important stuff and in some cases it can make or break a video. I'm a bit of a sound junkie and I feel it's just as important as clear, clean video. Some of the things you can do with 5.1 audio is pretty neat. Someone mentioned background music. I use it a lot too. Only I place the video on the center track and the music on the front/rear tracks with a bit of delay for added depth.

That's just one example of how 5.1 can work for you.... but there are many more.

Regardless of the level of importance you place on it... the 5.1 is real and it does work.

I'm sure they said stereo was a gimmick too! :D

I think it was about time they put 5.1 in camcorders. That's actually one of the advantages some of these new consumer models have over prosumer models. With so many homes set up for surround sound nowadays, it's just a natural extension that home video will have surround sound as well. The sound space is definitely widened, and back with my old stereo camcorder, I would play back videos with Dolby Pro Logic which is non-discrete surround sound anyway. So it's awesome we can get fully discrete surround sound now. :cool:

For me, I just need to learn how to position the camcorder right in front of me instead of to my right as my voice is always coming out of the left surround speakers now!!!

I wonder how long it will be for us to see a DTS camcorder, and Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD after that! :D

I'm soon going to be buying my first camcorder. I'm currently debating between the Canon HF10, Sony SR11 and Sony CX12 as these seem to be regarded very highly around here.

I think I like what I'm reading about the Canon the most, but it seems to be missing two important things (both of which the Sony ones have)

The first is 5.1 audio recording. I don't know if for amateur recordings (baby stuff and vacationing) if that will have a big impact. The second is a viewfinder.I too gave serious consideration to these two camcorders. It was the 5.1 sound that lead me to buy the SR11 and for this reason alone, I'm glad of my decision. They are both fine cameras but the 5.1 sound puts you in the picture. Non-experts immediately notice the difference.

I also like the Sony build. (Mine has already survived a spilling of Diet Coke... ) The Sony's downside is the sometimes slow, stubborn autofocus.

Some Sony Camcorders have 5.1 sound capability while Canons have stereo. In practice though, I don't know how the reproduced sound in a good home theater system compares to professionally (like movies, cable TV) produced sound tracks that have Dolby Digital. I am curious how professional sound recording is done and how close we can get with camcorders which are primarily used by consumers. As some threads have stated, if the recorder's voice is coming from rear speakers, it isn't a great experience.

I am in the market for an HD camcorder, it would be either Canon HF100 or Sony CX12. I do care a lot about surround sound which is causing dilemma. I have used Canon products in the past with great experience but stereo in HF100 is making me think twice.

btw, I am in the middle of A/Bing the SR11 and HG21 and one thing I just realized was - DO NOT MAKE VIDEO COMPARISONS WITHOUT LOOKING AT THE FOOTAGE ON YOUR *TV* - (sorry for yelling, but I felt like yelling when I realized this) - I kept looking at the footage on my Samsung LCD monitor (not calibrated) and it was 'bland' and not very 'HD-like'. Mostly this was because, I dont have BD-writer, and Vegas kept crashing when rendering to 1920x1080. Finally found out that's a known issue, and rendered to 1440x1080 and burnt the resulting ISO to a DVD+RW and plopped it into my BD player - and VOILA. My goodness, what a difference - the footage was smooth as butter, colors popped, contrast was awesome!!! Now I really know what all the fuss is about HD camcorders - really, really :D

(I also now know what they mean by 60i looking 'too smooth' and why 24p is more like film - the footage is surreal and s.m.o.o.t.h)

And yes, the 5.1 sound does work (if it's a gimmick, I am all for gimmicks!) - I hear myself in the surrounds, and my kids in the front channel (and my wife from somewhere in there :)). The sound separation was pretty great, and definitely adds impact.

Now if UPS would deliver the HG21 :(, I can complete the A/B and finally start shooting some real footage... At this point the Canon needs to blow me out of the world before I will pick it over the Sony.