Hi guys, I recently purchased an old VCR in excellent condition and have been pondering purchasing a DVD Recorder to record some Horror movies on VHS to DVD-R. I somewhat know about the Macrovision situation, but I'm wondering if this VCR may be so old it doesn't support it so I can easily record protected VHS tapes.

It's a JC Penney 686-5051 3-Head VCR, it might be a rebadged RCA or Hitachi, Made in Japan. I can't find a year of manufacture anywhere on the unit or the manual, either any mention of Macrovision. It has a wired remote with it's main video output being an RF jack, has composite too.

http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/2164/img1292nb2.jpg

Any help/advice/history lesson (:p) would be much appreciated! :)

If I have to, I might just buy a DVD Recorder (probably a Panasonic DMR-EA18K) and test it out.

No VCR's were built to support Macrovision. Macrovision was encoded into the actual video tape to provide a signal that interfered with the automatic gain control of the recording VCR.

When you try to copy a commercial video tape, the DVD recorder will recognize the Macrovision signal and usually give an error message that says that the recording cannot be made. Different DVD recorders have different sensitivities to the Macrovision signal.

You can bypass Macrovision copy protection by using a video stabilizer between the VCR and the DVD recorder.

From wiki: "Starting in 1985 with the video release of "The Cotton Club", Macrovision has licensed to publishers a technology that exploits the automatic gain control feature of VCRs by adding pulses to the vertical blanking sync signal.[1] These pulses do not affect the image a consumer sees on his TV, but do confuse the recording-level circuitry of consumer VCRs. This technology, which is aided by U.S. legislation mandating the presence of automatic gain-control circuitry in VCRs, is said to "plug the analog hole" and make VCR-to-VCR copies impossible, although an inexpensive circuit is widely available that will defeat the protection by removing the pulses. Macrovision has patented methods of defeating copy prevention[2], giving it a more straightforward basis to shut down manufacture of any device that descrambles it than often exists in the DRM world." SO your bet is a vcr from late 80's or early 90's that do not have AGC control built in them.

Yup, my family owned two General Electric VCRs, purchased new in 1988 at Service Merchandise (man, this is walk down memory lane), and they were not affected by Macrovision. I used the sole survivor a few years ago to dub copies of well-worn tapes I had purchased. Interesting thing was I was able to record on that machine without a hitch, but when I went to dub a copy of the copy on a newer machine, the Macrovision signal was still there and made the new machine's AGC go nuts.

So you'd probably be able to record a copy of Macro'd VHS tape TO your "new" VCR, but it won't help you with recording the tape to DVD.

Thanks guys, sounds like I'm going to have to let my VHS collection rot and pray no VCR destroys them. :(

JUSTa reminder , the early vcr's did not have agc, so you can use that machine to dub from to a dvd recorder, because no macro chip is in it, to see macro on the tape. I have done so years ago with my first recorder, dmr-e20, and a panasonic vcr, 1986 vintage I had new E.T. TAPES to try and worked to copy to dvd-r. try it.........

Not sure what VHS VCRs you had but I go back to 1979 and they all reacted to MV when it came out, with Cotton Club I believe. Now not every tape had MV so that might be confusing things, but AFAIK basically every VHS VCR had AGC and would react to MV. Now Beta was another story. Beta was not effected by MV, at least the pre 90's Betamaxes I had. A trick I used to use was to place a Betamax VCR between the line output of a VHS player and the line input of a VHS recorder. Worked like a charm to remove the MV.
Once I bought my filter I was able to ditch the clunky Betamax, but for a while it sure did the trick.
I do remember some VHS VCRs were less susceptible to MV than others but I personally never saw one that didn't have at least a little brightness pulsing or color problems when trying to copy a true MV encoded tape. YMMV

THE vcr I have is a panasonic 1989 vintage pv-4962 hi-fi vcr $500.00 back then, and I bought it new, and is still working perfectly, does not have macro,agc to muck things up. I can easily dub encoded tapes to dvd- recorders just fine...

Hmmm...sounds like I should at least try it out to see.

I know this probably doesn't mean anything, but the VCR's manual has absolutely no mention of Macrovision, only stating that "many television programs are copyrighted" and "one court" ruled that making copies of such material even for home use could constitute copyright infringement.

It also calls the front tape loading feature "ingenious". :eek:

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/7905/img1503xp0.jpg

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/299/img1505ek3.th.jpg (http://img74.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1505ek3.jpg)

Just showing off some of what I wanna DVD-R:

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/2441/img1497il9.jpg
http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/3613/img1500oc4.jpg
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/6572/img1499ig5.jpg

YOU sir, have your work to do................ good luck.........

Your VCR kind of looks like an RCA VKT550. That was the first RCA with VHS Hi-Fi stereo.
I owned one back in 1985. It's shortcoming was it's tuner.

Just to be sure you're clear on the difference, the MacroVision lockout works differently in VCRs than it does in DVD recorders. If your goal is to make DVD transfers of your more obscure VHS tapes, you will simply need a "little black box". These are available dirt cheap, as little as $10 or $20 online, as long as you only need it for VHS-to-DVD (DVD-to-DVD is another story entirely and requires a far more expensive black box, basically not worth it).

VCRs react to MacroVision by ruining the recorded picture. Very few VHS VCRs were ever truly "resistant" to MacroVision, perhaps 5 or 6 of the thousands of VHS models ever produced. And those machines were only resistant internally: they made a passable copy but embedded the MacroVision signal right into the copy. These VCRs don't "clear" MacroVision, they simply ignore it when making their recordings. And *none* of them defeat MacroVision thru their line outputs: understand this, there is NO vcr that will play MacroVision tapes straight thru to another recorder without a "black box" in between.

DVD recorders do not react to MacroVision in the usual way, by screwing up the picture. Instead, they inspect the incoming signal for the presence of MacroVision and if they sense MV, they just lock out their recording function. It's a black/white, kneejerk response. And there's no way around it short of using a black box or filter. That's your answer.

Just looking at the tapes you have, and considering the investment that they represent, I would not hesitate to get a "black box" that would allow you to make a personal copy of these tapes for your own private use.

I had several VCRs that "ignored" macrovision, in that they would allow me to make a copy of an encoded tape, thought as someone stated, that tape had the macrovision signal on it just like the original. I also had VCRs that would not play a tape with macrovision encoding. I got the color and contrast problems when playing back a tape, let alone when trying to record one.

Does anyone rember "Copyguard?" I think it predated Macrovision. Ah, the memories, when we didn't have to worry about DIGITAL copy protections.

JUSTa reminder , the early vcr's did not have agc, so you can use that machine to dub from to a dvd recorder, because no macro chip is in it, to see macro on the tape. I have done so years ago with my first recorder, dmr-e20, and a panasonic vcr, 1986 vintage I had new E.T. TAPES to try and worked to copy to dvd-r. try it.........

Sorry, but that is incorrect. No VHS machine ever made had any sort of circuitry devoted to copy protection of any type. There was no "macro chip." Some VCRs had sync-referenced gain control to keep an accurate output level from tapes that may have varied in recording level. A few of these machines tended to have screwed-up output on Macrovision tapes.

What DID defeat Macrovision was the use of a Time Base corrector on better VHS machines, which replaced the white spikes and varying pedestal level with new blanking and sync. Just about any VCR with TBC removed Macrovision and Copyguard, resulting in clean unprotected recordings to another VCR or DVD recorder. The exceptions were certain consumer-level VCR's with TBC made late in the game that had an added circuit to keep Macrovison if it was detected, but that's rare.

The best way to make good copies of VHS tapes is to find a VCR with TBC, such as the high end Panasonics and JVCs. My Hitachi VLS-100 and JVC 6000-something both have TBCs and completely remove all vestiges of Macrovision and Copyguard. (Copyguard sometimes causes tearing on the Hitachi.)

The best way to make good copies of VHS tapes is to find a VCR with TBC, such as the high end Panasonics and JVCs. My Hitachi VLS-100 and JVC 6000-something both have TBCs and completely remove all vestiges of Macrovision and Copyguard.

This is one of those "personal experience" reports that may not necessarily apply to everyone: you were very lucky this worked for you, but it does not for most people. The TBC-equipped consumer and prosumer machines all appeared well within the MacroVision peak period, and I have found they do absolutely nothing to clear most MV-treated tapes. Panasonic and JVC crippled those TBCs to ensure they did not interfere with MV output. (I have not tried a Hitachi with TBC, those are quite rare so you may have a winner there.)

There is a degree of variability from tape to tape in exactly how the MacroVision was applied: certain tapes played on certain production runs of certain Panasonics, JVC, and Hitachis may indeed have their MV cleared at the outputs. But this is not guaranteed, to be absolutely certain you need a black box that strips the MV. The older model "clarifiers" designed exclusively for VHS dubbing are so cheap now its a no-brainer to include one in your accessory kit. The TBC-equipped Panasonic, JVC, Hitachi, Mitsubishi and Toshiba VCRs are all top notch but tend to be quite expensive second hand because all of them were rare high-end units priced around $1000 throughout their heyday in the 1990s. Unless you need them for their other features, do not opt for one on the off chance it will clear MV for you: get a filter box for $20.

(If you come across a *broadcast* model Panasonic or JVC with included full-strength industrial TBC card, those will clear MV. But these are huge, heavy machines that cost more to ship than they do to buy. Again, the best way to attack the MV problem is with a cheap little black box independent of the VCR.)

...What DID defeat Macrovision was the use of a Time Base corrector on better VHS machines, which replaced the white spikes and varying pedestal level with new blanking and sync. Just about any VCR with TBC removed Macrovision and Copyguard, resulting in clean unprotected recordings to another VCR or DVD recorder. The exceptions were certain consumer-level VCR's with TBC made late in the game that had an added circuit to keep Macrovison if it was detected, but that's rare.

The best way to make good copies of VHS tapes is to find a VCR with TBC, such as the high end Panasonics and JVCs. My Hitachi VLS-100 and JVC 6000-something both have TBCs and completely remove all vestiges of Macrovision and Copyguard. (Copyguard sometimes causes tearing on the Hitachi.)
I clearly remember a significant amount of "discussion" in the late 80s and early 90s revolving around the characteristic of Macrovision to make closed captioning impossible. I clearly remember a letter from the father of a deaf little girl who could not enjoy any of the Disney films because the Macrovision was incompatable with closed captions. Did the VCRs with TBC also strip the closed captioning?

I clearly remember a significant amount of "discussion" in the late 80s and early 90s revolving around the characteristic of Macrovision to make closed captioning impossible. I clearly remember a letter from the father of a deaf little girl who could not enjoy any of the Disney films because the Macrovision was incompatable with closed captions. Did the VCRs with TBC also strip the closed captioning?

That I can't recall. I think lines 19 and 21 were untramelled so the Captions came through, but 17 and 18, with the white peaks, were under the blanking. I'm very deaf so Closed Captioning is an issue with me also.

It's true that the TBC in a high end consumer deck was not a guarantee of cleaning out the Macrovision, indeed Macrovision often caused jitter or even vertical lock failure on some tapes. I was referring to the white industrial Pannys and JVCs, often available now for $100 to $400, that ALWAYS cleared copy protection. They had to, the whole point of these machines was to output true NTSC/PAL video that could be put through a switcher or genlocked system rack.

One thing is that when copying VHS, Beta, or 3/4" to a digital format, DVDr or a PC, unless the burst is made coherent (locked to video sync) you always get edge artifacting, noise streaking, and maybe horizontal wobble on the recording. Always. The output of a regular analog videotape system is non-coherent. A Black Box removes the Macrovision screwed-up sync and white peaks, but still doesn't correct the colour phase or stability. The ONLY way to get clean, smooth video from VHS is by the use of a TBC, even if a Black Box still has to be used anyway to remove Macrovision remnants. I've never tried a VHS/DVDr combo unit, I presume there is some sort of correction circuitry to eliminate non-coherence crosstalk.

Yes I have a Macrovison black box, it's used on the input to the Barco monitor, which doesn't lock at all to copy-protected video.

Re the closed captions, this is a HUGE problem with transferring Macrovision-encoded tapes and is especially annoying for the hearing-impaired who really need those captions. The industrial VCRs with broadcast TBCs, and high-end outboard TBCs, remove both the closed captions and the Macrovision. The consumer-grade accessory filters and clarifiers are an unpredictable lot: some suppress the Macrovision but pass thru the captions, many others don't, and since nearly all of these are generic no-name boxes its nearly impossible to recommend a specific one that will pass the captions.

The only reliable way to transfer captioned tapes to DVD is to pass the signal thru a television that is set to display the captions, this will hard-code the captions into the DVD copy. The connection would be VHS out to TV in, TV out to protection filter in, protection filter out to DVD recorder in. You still need the filter to strip the video interference, but the television will over-write the captions on the video even though the "hidden" caption data stream is removed.

Re the closed captions, this is a HUGE problem with transferring Macrovision-encoded tapes and is especially annoying for the hearing-impaired who really need those captions. The industrial VCRs with broadcast TBCs, and high-end outboard TBCs, remove both the closed captions and the Macrovision. The consumer-grade accessory filters and clarifiers are an unpredictable lot: some suppress the Macrovision but pass thru the captions, many others don't,

The service menu in the Panasonics at least (maybe also the JVCs) allow switching the number of blanked lines and or blanking width. You CAN get CC from an industrial VHS machine with TBC by leaving line 21 open, but not from most consumer TBC'd players. (Actually some high end consumer JVCs let you switch blanking) And Macrovision boxes may have a potentiometer inside which allow something similar to the above, changing the width of the vertical blanking to let CC get by. My old unit will do that. The macrovision flag is at the beginning of the line with varying vertical pulses, so removing the pulses also removes the copy prohibition for devices that recognize it. One problem with not completely replacing the black period (blanking) with reinserted sync is that there may be a step in black level or difference in horizontal line length which can upset sync on the input device or break interlace.

Don't forget the CGMS-A problem. This is a copy protection bit in the analog signal (line 20 or 21). A few VHS tapes have this. One example I came up against is Flight of the Navigator, which also has CC. Even though my JVC S-VHS VCR HR-S8000U has a built-in TBC, it passes the CGMS-A bit, so my DVD recorder DMR-E20 would not copy it. In the end, I bought an i.DEN IVT-7 Time Base Corrector from a friend, who is a video broadcast engineer. He charged me $200 for a professionally adjusted version, but I believe you can get it a lot cheaper on eBay. The i.DEN lets you optionally regenerate line 20/21, while retaining the CC. This did the trick. It was also useful when I wanted to convert a PAL DVD to NTSC. My trusted old APEX AD-1500 provides a usable NTSC picture from PAL, but colors are often off or trailing, and this is where the i.DEN comes into play.
For more on CGMS-A, see Jim Taylor's DVD Demystified FAQ http://dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html.

I *strongly* advise against buying "professional" TBCs from eBay, no matter how good the deal seems, and I especially would avoid the i.Den units. I went thru four of those, and they were each beat to death and barely working, when they did work they were very spotty clearing MacroVision and useless against CGMS. zaphodnl was fortunate to have a tech friend rejuvenate his i.Den and adjust it for maximum performance as a VHS to DVD tbc. Unless you have access to similar friends, don't bother: the units cannot be adjusted properly at home without the proper external tools, you'll just screw the unit up even more.

Professional TBCs are huge, heavy, have LOUD fans, they get quite warm, and most of the second hand units were shoved into a studio rack 15-20 years ago, turned on, and left running until they were pulled to list on eBay last week. They are not a good risk unless you're a pro and know what the hell you're doing. The only TBC worth buying for our consumer purposes is the AVT-8710, which was in short supply last year but now back in stock at semi-pro outlets like B&H. The AVT-8710 is specifically designed for VHS, is easy to use, and available brand new for about $250 (unless they sell out again, which drives the price up to $350). The AVT is the size of a cigarette case, has some useful image adjustments, and clears both MV and CGMS. Avoid the popular and way overpriced DataVideo TBC-1000: its well made, but engineered more for VHS-to-PC-capture-card framesync problems. Its ability to clear MV and CGMS varies considerably, I went thru two brand new units and sold both off when they failed to clear MV consistently.