You see I am not all pro AMX, this is a great product that is what everyone has been clamoring for. If it works as advertised on 1080p over long runs.



http://www.cepro.com/images/uploads/crestron_dm_switcher_300px.jpg
Multiroom HDMI Matrix router. (http://www.cepro.com/article/crestrons_digitalmedia_switchers_offer_ultimate_hdmi_ip_dist ribution_contro/K1)

It looks like a great piece of equipment. I just wonder when it's going to be released.

CJ

JVC has a HDMI HD transmitter. Full 1080p. Hook up a switcher to this thing and there you go.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/0904081047.jpg

Heres another one. I wonder how good these things will work..any loss at the upper end.
Monster wireless/coax hd distribution...only$600 retail
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/0905081045.jpg

It looks like a great piece of equipment. I just wonder when it's going to be released.
I expect to see it shipping in 2009.

Yes very cool stuff, we will see it early 2009, please let me know if I can answer any questions re: Digital Media.

just make sure you get a full picture of HOW it does the matrixing. things are not always as they seem

Dizzman, not sure what you are referring to. Can you explain?

in the past, a manufacturer (not crestron) made a DVI matrix. people thought it was great and did a great job. when we pointed out that it was a bunch of DVI-VGA convertors then a VGA matrix then a bunch of VGA-DVI converters on the output, people were quite shocked.

I am not suggesting the creston has something like that, i am just saying, when something is quite new, and they are the only one with it, and they do not have HIGH END video engineering expertise in house, you really need to look closely before you start betting the farm on it.

See this link for details on what i am talking about with respect to engineering expertise in house.
http://www.extron.com/company/andrewonline.aspx?id=ao-11
the pics were removed, but just read the first paragraph.

Be cautious.

Heres another one. I wonder how good these things will work..any loss at the upper end.
Monster wireless/coax hd distribution...only$600 retail
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/0905081045.jpg

Alan, I wrote about this in another thread... having looked into it, this is NOT the same as the JVC wireless HDMI repeater... this Monster unit encodes and compresses the video in real time and sends out over UWB... this means video quality will absolutely suffer, and I for sure am not a customer of this unit.

The JVC solution is the right one... bit for bit transmission of the HDMI bit stream, no encoding, no nonsense, just a wireless bit pump.

in the past, a manufacturer (not crestron) made a DVI matrix. people thought it was great and did a great job. when we pointed out that it was a bunch of DVI-VGA convertors then a VGA matrix then a bunch of VGA-DVI converters on the output, people were quite shocked.

I am not suggesting the creston has something like that, i am just saying, when something is quite new, and they are the only one with it, and they do not have HIGH END video engineering expertise in house, you really need to look closely before you start betting the farm on it.

See this link for details on what i am talking about with respect to engineering expertise in house.
http://www.extron.com/company/andrewonline.aspx?id=ao-11
the pics were removed, but just read the first paragraph.

Be cautious.
I think you are sort of playing games here :), saying "I am not suggesting Crestron has something like that" and then linking to that article and saying "be cautious".

The Extron article as you know (I assume) is due to escalating competition and ill will between the two companies. Extron was upset because they are losing switcher sales to Crestron. I was put off by the original Extron article NOT because of the competitive comparison, but because I felt that it took some cheap shots and was less than professional. Interestingly, I think they have toned it down somewhat since then.

I'm really not sure why you would even point to that article. I think it actually backfired on Extron because the 1% of people who care that one consumes 28 more watts would not be using the Crestron in the first place. Is it somehow bad that some of Crestron's switches are built by Kramer, a well known manufacturer of matrix switchers? Is there a manufacturer on the face of the earth that isn't outsourcing some of their manufacturing or filling in certain holes in their line with OEM'd products?

The comparison itself it rather hilarious. The Crestron, excuse me Kramer, consumes 28 more watts. Oh me oh my!

If you read the article on the Crestron HDMI solution it's pretty obvious that there is no way this is just a switcher with some adapters, so I think your post is way off target. There is nothing even remotely close to this (HDMI solution) on the market, just as there has been nothing on the market for the past 5 years close to or remotely similar to their current residential video distribution system.

Disclaimer: I use Crestron on many projects (and have used Extron as well on occasion, they make great products) and I believe Dizzman used to work for Extron.

i am most definitely am not playing games. And i worked there for ten years.

My point in linking to that article was not the useless crap Andrew went on and on about, but the point that crestron does not even make the matrixes. Their matrix switchers are made by kramer. so if i am looking at them, i say "hey, these guys do not even make these things, best be extra cautious"

i know what the crestron article said, but things like what Tzucc pointed out above are relevant here. things are not always what they seem. Q, You are a good solid integrator, you are going to go over that thing with a fine toothed comb before you use it on a job.

Some folks will read the article and praise jesus that our HDMI distribution issues are solved. And then make pronouncements about things being hit out of the park.

All i am saying, and honestly i like Crestron, Amx, Extron, everybody. Is that if you are looking at this thing or anything that is "groundbreaking" look in the fine print.

I am not accusing crestron of anything. the "previous" manufacturer i mentioned was most definitely not them.

BTW Dizzman, you know be by now, my posts often come off much stronger than they are meant to when all I am doing is enjoying a healthy debate :). Some of the comments in my post were actually directed at the Extron writeup, which I found a little humorous.

I still however must take issue with your statement "hey, these guys do not even make these things, best be extra cautious". I'm just not sure the relevance. The iPhones are not made by Apple. IBM does not make many of their computers. The fact that a company is not making all of their products generally rates very low on my list of reasons to be cautious. If anything, I'd question how long any company can sustain itself if it isn't doing some outsourcing, as the manufacturing costs to produce the range of products that Cresron supplies would be staggering. Why would they want to build all their video switchers when there are already so many other companies doing that well? I'd much rather seem them devoting all their efforts to creating this HDMI product and whether they build it or outsource it I couldn't give a hoot about.

Crestron has one of the largest if not the largest in house engineering team in the industry. From a CEA article -"CEA’s “America Wins With Trade” tour continues today with our first stop in Rockleigh, New Jersey, at the headquarters of Crestron, a manufacturer of innovative home and business lighting, audio-video, and other automation controls. Crestron has been in business in New Jersey for nearly 40 years and employs some 2,500 people. Crestron manufactures its devices here in New Jersey, and also does all its research and development here (we toured their research facility and saw some of Crestron’s 350 engineers working hard on the next generation of automation products)." Further having recently been given a complete walk through of the product by one of the engineers and seen the Digital Media system in action I feel the system represents a significant ground breaking innovation that can not be ignored or dismissed.

I'm looking forward to this switcher. I have PVID8x3 and this new one is a perfect upgrade.

Is there any advanced processor that Crestron working on for 2 series processors (I have Pro2) that does the latest surround formats, EQ and video processing? (like AMS-AIP)

We did not see anything resembling a standalone processor, you could always use the AMS-AIP with your choice of amps.

an HDMI router is pretty cool actually. Uncompressed raw HDMI data over CAT5e. Very very nice. But what goes on the remote end of the CAT5 cable, to convert cat5 to HDMI connectors?

The CEPro article on it lists various media wallplates that will be used at the display end.

CJ

Their media server is fantastic. I will expand later.

The CEPro article on it lists various media wallplates that will be used at the display end.

CJ

so there is some active piece of circuitry on the receiving end to convert back to HDMI connection specs... that is the piece I am puzzled about. There has to be a receiver for that cat5e in this wallplate?

there is

Tony,

The receiver in the wall plate is powered by cable that get runs along with the Cat 5's, an 18/2 awg cable to be exact (carrying 24 volts). Perhaps that's the part that's confusing you, you're expecting to see a power supply at the wall plate. It could be done that way, but no need as long as the integrator has run an 18/2 from the main system.

Technically BTW, it's an 18/2 with a 22/2 for data before some nitwit feels the need to correct me :), but it's the 18/2 that is for power.

an HDMI router is pretty cool actually. Uncompressed raw HDMI data over CAT5e. Very very nice.
And fiber can be used for nearly unlimited distance (over 3000')!

We did not see anything resembling a standalone processor, you could always use the AMS-AIP with your choice of amps.

It seems a bit overkill to use AMS-AIP as a stand alone processor. It could be nice if they can release an exclusive AV processor just for HT. (without amp, tuners, mutli zone, device control- just like C2N-DAP8, only with latest surround and video decoding.)

It seems a bit overkill to use AMS-AIP as a stand alone processor. It could be nice if they can release an exclusive AV processor just for HT. (without amp, tuners, mutli zone, device control- just like C2N-DAP8, only with latest surround and video decoding.)
It's being worked on but it's not imminent. I agree, personally I'd be using it a lot more than the AMS-AIP because I have absolutely no use for all those extra zones if I just want a processor for a media room, and the DAP8 is a great piece, but not up to date.

Tony,

The receiver in the wall plate is powered by cable that get runs along with the Cat 5's, an 18/2 awg cable to be exact (carrying 24 volts). Perhaps that's the part that's confusing you, you're expecting to see a power supply at the wall plate. It could be done that way, but no need as long as the integrator has run an 18/2 from the main system.

Technically BTW, it's an 18/2 with a 22/2 for data before some nitwit feels the need to correct me :), but it's the 18/2 that is for power.

No I understand power over ethernet, that's been done for a while. What I am confused about is the need for a transceiver at both ends... you just can't send out HDMI electrical signals from the HDMI source connector out on CAT5e... you will need to at the very minimum some pre-EQ, and the inverse/signal recovery on the other side... along with jitter recovery, etc... it's like any other data transmission over cat5e,... there is some encoding of the data to allow the data to be sent and received over a limited bandwidth pipe.

You aren't listening :). I was not referring to POE at all, I was answering your question. Again, there is am 18 AWG 2 conductor power cable (NOT POE, NOT Cat 5) that gets run from the head end to the room destination (in addition to the Cat 5). That cable powers the HDMI receiver wall plate.

Does that answer your question? Are we on the same page?

You aren't listening :). I was not referring to POE at all, I was answering your question. Again, there is am 18 AWG 2 conductor power cable (NOT POE, NOT Cat 5) that gets run from the head end to the room destination (in addition to the Cat 5). That cable powers the HDMI receiver wall plate.

Does that answer your question? Are we on the same page?

sorry I didn't let your post settle in... now I understand there is a separate cable for power. However, my question stands... now that we establish there is a powered HDMI wallplate, what is in that wallplate... I am curious as to how they fit a 3Gbps signal (or whatever it is, it's higher than 1Gbps) on a cable that has to work really hard just to transmit 1Gbps for ethernet.

sorry I didn't let your post settle in... now I understand there is a separate cable for power. However, my question stands... now that we establish there is a powered HDMI wallplate, what is in that wallplate... I am curious as to how they fit a 3Gbps signal (or whatever it is, it's higher than 1Gbps) on a cable that has to work really hard just to transmit 1Gbps for ethernet.
Good question. By using Cat 6 that is rated for 10 GB data. This is NOT their recommended cable, I'm simply linking to as an example of a Cat 6 10 GB solution, in case you are skeptical ;):

http://www.siemon.com/us/category6/default.asp

that CAT6 cable has to work REALLY hard to transmit 10Gbps data too... there is a helluva lot of signal processing at TX and RX ends of a 10Gbps copper connection on cat6. Very expensive today.

HERE are all the introductions... (http://www.crestron.com/downloads/pdf/product_brochures/cedia_2008_new_products.pdf)

in the past, a manufacturer (not crestron) made a DVI matrix. people thought it was great and did a great job. when we pointed out that it was a bunch of DVI-VGA convertors then a VGA matrix then a bunch of VGA-DVI converters on the output, people were quite shocked.

I am not suggesting the creston has something like that, i am just saying, when something is quite new, and they are the only one with it, and they do not have HIGH END video engineering expertise in house, you really need to look closely before you start betting the farm on it.

See this link for details on what i am talking about with respect to engineering expertise in house.
http://www.extron.com/company/andrewonline.aspx?id=ao-11
the pics were removed, but just read the first paragraph.

Be cautious.

I agree! For example I peeled off thetop of two lower cost HDMI switchers just to see what they were using as crosspoints. How about AD9000 series, which is 350mhz analog crosspoint. Now yes it will work but is hardly compliant considering the specs of TDMS. I have seen this crap on HDSDI and SDI switchers from the consumer and AV product companies as well. (not Extron BTW. They make good stuff)

Where this could potentially fail is crosstalk and that is difficult to test let alone predict. Anybody who thinks "crosstalk" is an analog problem and not a factor in high speed digital switches is in for a surprise.

Also is it a NON BLOCKING matrix? This is yet another marketing trick the new matrix players use. For example a switch may have 32 i nputs and 32 outputs but only four internal busses. So while you can send a signal 32 devices you only have in this hypothetical case four souces at a time to choose from. A true matrix or "router" in the TV broadcast business means 32 unique inputs to 32 unique outputs or any variation thereof.

Now this is a switch! 576x576 NON BLOCKING at 3gbs!
http://www.nvision.tv/doc/db/pics/1207764210_2696.f_doc_pdf.pdf

So is this. I installed one of the 576x576 versions last year.
http://www.evertz.com/products/EQX

Yes be careful indeed!

Also is it a NON BLOCKING matrix? This is yet another marketing trick the new matrix players use. For example a switch may have 32 i nputs and 32 outputs but only four internal busses. So while you can send a signal 32 devices you only have in this hypothetical case four souces at a time to choose from. A true matrix or "router" in the TV broadcast business means 32 unique inputs to 32 unique outputs or any variation thereof.
Wow! I've never heard of anyone doing that. I'd like to see how they are advertising that, I don't see anything wrong with it as long as they advertise it accurately. Got any links?

Wow! I've never heard of anyone doing that. I'd like to see how they are advertising that, I don't see anything wrong with it as long as they advertise it accurately. Got any links?

I can report two in the telecommunication business: Qlogic and Extreme Networks.

Qlogic makes a very popular 24 port fibre channel switch, the 5600. I was dumbfounded when I was told by tech support I had to "balance the bandwidth" on my switch to get the throughput I needed. Hugh? What difference does which input or output I use make? Well it turns out that inside it is made from four 4x4 crosspoints, not a 16x16 block as I would expect. Therefore it cannot possibly connect every possible port combination without multiple crosspoint hops in many cases. Also it fairly easy to come up with ax 8x8 scenerio that cannot be allocated at any given instant. Now you can play games by re-configuring the switch based on traffic but in realtime playback of 2K and 4K video files, there is no traffic break. It's a constant flow. If you ask their sales engineers for a true matrix they claim it's impossible to build. Yet as you can see the broadcast industry has already done it on a huge scale. Apcon makes a true fibre channel matrix and is my vendor of choice for FC switches.

Most ethernet switches work the same way. The enterprize class switch makers such as Extreme always boast their backplane speed. Well in a true matrix the backplane speed is a no brainer. In the units I posted it's simple. 3gbs times the matrix size. Well in their case it's not a matrix at all. It's a time shared buss and unless it's fast enough to handle the bandwidth of the data rate times the ins and outs it will not be a realtime device.

My point is that outside of the broadcast industry a "Matrix Switch" may not be a true matrix at all. Now I realize there are also "no crosspoint matrix" TDM switchers around for AES audio but these still are fully non-blocking.

The math also tells the truth. 4x4x4= 64 actual crosspoints. 16x16= 256 crosspoints. These "cheats" save a lot of money but just make sure you know what you are getting.

OK Crestron fans here's a question:

I want to buy one of those HDMI matrix switchers and control it from my own control software. Is there a RS232/422 port? NO

Ok it does have an ethernet port but is it IP based??? Is there a published protocol spec to write to?

What is "Crestnet"? I'll tell you! It s proprietary protocol used to seal there products from any interoperability by competing products. Well advanced systems are never built from just one manufacture.

I don't do business with these kinds of companies if I can help it.

Gefen has what looks like a nice switch, but I don't think they have released it yet.

OK Crestron fans here's a question:

I want to buy one of those HDMI matrix switchers and control it from my own control software. Is there a RS232/422 port? NO

Ok it does have an ethernet port but is it IP based??? Is there a published protocol spec to write to?

What is "Crestnet"? I'll tell you! It s proprietary protocol used to seal there products from any interoperability by competing products. Well advanced systems are never built from just one manufacture.

I don't do business with these kinds of companies if I can help it.
Put a cheap Crestron processor on there and you can control 25 of those HDMI switchers from your control software Glimmie, via RS232/RS422/RS485 or Ethernet ;).

Q... when i was at extron, every year we would look at the list of stuff that is pushed on people and is presented so factually wrong and try to determine what to add to our teaching schedule.

the stuff glimmie mentions is absolutely true. lots of folks doing various stuff liek that. or stacking 4x4 chips to make a 16 x 16. it was reasonably easy to demonstrate how bad it was and how so many specs are really really false.

I would show a matrix (a while back) that was X at 1-1. then i would add outputs and you would see the throughput drop and drop. or we would show crosstalk that was obscene. the biggest issue we had was that glossy brochures win over engineering facts in most cases.

One that we REALLY wanted to get into was group delay. however the topic was so complex that giving a basic overview almost opened more boxes than it closed. and as most people in the av industry (not glimmies side of the house) do not even know what a scope is, we could conduct a really great class that left people impressed... with no idea how to use the info. In the end, we covered lots of stuff that gave the dealer more and more confidence that we knew what the f we were doing and were not taking shortcuts.

the BS that can pass for fact in the AV world is amazing.