New Sim2 1080 30,000:1 contrast [Text View]

Art Sonneborn

09-07-08, 11:22 AM

It's not just the depreciation...it's the fact your buying into the marketing. Is it an intelligent move to purchase a piece of equipment that is 2,3 or even 5 times the price of the competition just because the manufacturer has a good marketing program? I don't think so..

Projectors can not be thought of as automobiles. You purchase a Corvette, Ferrari, even a Cadillac, because you see the brand as a value to you, or maybe it's a dream vehicle that you always wanted. Projectors are extremely fleeting, one day their the best, 3 months later their not.

But like CM stated, if you can afford it and lose I huge percentage of money in 6 months and you don't care because you have the money to do it, then good for you...and good for guys like me that purchase those items at fair value. Just don't make it seem like it's the intelligent thing to do!

Joey
P.S. For once I agree Tzucc

The bottom line with video equipment is and has been so for a while. You can't look at it with idea of resale value at all in the mix. To stay cutting edge you just have to let go of that concept. If you are willing to go down a step or two then it isn't as painful but still who would pay you almost anything for an RS2 when JVC has a model that outperforms it for less money ?

If you can get a little money for your equipment great but saying that you are considering depreciation as if it is a car ,boat etc is nonsense based on reality.

Art

oneobgyn

09-07-08, 12:18 PM

thebland

09-07-08, 12:27 PM

Ditto Art

For myself HT purchases are with money that if I lost it would not effect my lifestyle or plans for retirement. If I upgrade and take a hit, then so be it but I won't buy anything without getting the best price and I'll only purchase with cash. .

joeycalda

09-07-08, 01:58 PM

The bottom line with video equipment is and has been so for a while. You can't look at it with idea of resale value at all in the mix. To stay cutting edge you just have to let go of that concept. If you are willing to go down a step or two then it isn't as painful but still who would pay you almost anything for an RS2 when JVC has a model that outperforms it for less money ?

If you can get a little money for your equipment great but saying that you are considering depreciation as if it is a car ,boat etc is nonsense based on reality.

In your case Art, you did move on the HT5000 at it's infancy...which was good for you and anyone that needed critical insight into the 3 chip world. especially coming from a dual stack CRT. The Ht5000 is also a tank., but anyone plunking down $30k in the last 3 months on a CX31080p I think made a big mistake....one that they will regret more than me.

If you are willing to go down a step or two then it isn't as painful but still who would pay you almost anything for an RS2 when JVC has a model that outperforms it for less money ?

What model is that?

There does seem to be a time when moving on a new piece of equipment is necassary and other times when sitting on the fence makes much more sense. Your considerations (screen size, lumens, reliabilty) were addressed with the HT5000 and it is also a statement piece by that manufacturer. When I purchased six Sony plasmas at $5000 a pop 4 years ago, they were worth the money for me and BTW are still operating flawlessly with 15 hours a day operation. The 5 Toshibas I purchased 2 years later for $2500 are not performing as well and might need to changed with much less hours. So quality control is important, especially when plunking down big coin. The Sony Qualia is a statement piece, made with high quality parts and longevity in mind IMO. I still think that the dual stacked CRT was the holy grail at the 10 feet and under screen size...but only you know that Art!

I did a an AVS search and did notice the JVC 350/750 you were speaking about... thanks...Now the 750 seems like a nice projector at a decent price $11k. Brighter, Extra contrast, better 3D effect, better sharpness, full CMS etc....Now jumping on this seems like a good move!! The RS2 release always seemed a little preempted to me.

Joey

oneobgyn

09-07-08, 03:25 PM

plunking down $30k in the last 3 months on a CX31080p I think made a big mistake....one that they will regret more than me.

Joey

you just don't get it.

I have no worries and no regrets about plunking down $30K on this PJ nor will I for years to come. It is just that good.
BTW if you had done your home work here on AVS you would know that MSRP is just that and none of us paid anywhere near MSRP for this PJ.
Simply put you need not preach to us as to how to spend our money and dare say I would never try to convince you of the same

oneobgyn

09-07-08, 03:28 PM

If the little dogs want to hang around for the scraps, that's great but they really shouldn't yap so much.

CM

The noises you hear from Joey are merely little barks with his tail under his legs

Joey there is a $3500 and under forum here on AVS. Perhaps you need to hang out there rather than here and let us who want to buy and can afford to buy, do just that

coldmachine

09-07-08, 03:29 PM

Bottom line IMO: Is that CX31080p is not and never was worth $30k. It is not like they developed proprietary equipment, with patents, that the rest of the industry would need 5 years to catch up. The have a good marketing network, but is it worth $10k-$15k a projector?

The entire C3X uses a proprietary Alpha path light engine. The rest of the industry have had a number of years to catch up, but no one has. The C3X1080 is still the cheapest and smallest 1080 3 chipper with no sign of a challenger yet. The reasons why it costs the money it does have been explained many times. If was as , as your post suggests, possible to do for $10k-$15k less others would have done it and sold a ton. No one has. For the price and performance, and especially the enjoyment I derived, my 2 C3X1080s have been an absolute bargain.

With Optoma being the first to bring LED dased DLP to market you will see new technolgy at affordable pricing. If Sim was first to bring this projector to market you would see at least a 25%-75% increase in price.

When TI develop a new technology there is an access hierarchy and and chronology. In this case the top level companies have declined and are working on other LED solutions. Judging by the reports from IFA they were right to do so. The performance seems a match for Optomas market segment and customer profile.

Just don't make it seem like it's the intelligent thing to do!

As for you comment regarding intelligent purchasing decisions, that may be the case from your side of the fence, but certainly not mine. If I wish to have the best and can afford to do so, its a perfectly intelligent decision. The simple fact is that some people are willing and able to have the best without worrying about depreciation, that certainly doesn't lack intelligence at all. The fact that those doing so are usually very successful in their chosen field would tent to bear that out.

Some people may not like it, but that's just how the big dogs roll. If the little dogs want to hang around for the scraps, that's great but they really shouldn't yap so much.

coldmachine

09-07-08, 03:30 PM

CM

The noises you hear from Joey are merely little barks with his tail under his legs

Joey there is a $3500 and under forum here on AVS. Perhaps you need to hang out there rather than here and let us who want to buy and can afford to buy, do just that

Sorry, i accidentally deleted and had to re post it.

I agree with you 100%

oneobgyn

09-07-08, 03:31 PM

CM

still no PM or just off the list :(

oneobgyn

09-07-08, 03:32 PM

too bad I guess

no need to have deleted it....I read you loud and clear.

oneobgyn

09-07-08, 03:35 PM

I don't know whats going on here. Thats the second post that has deleted itself.

must be your iPhone;)

coldmachine

09-07-08, 03:39 PM

must be your iPhone;)

Im actually on my laptop.

oneobgyn

09-07-08, 03:42 PM

Im actually on my laptop.

Is that anything similar to a "lap dance";)

Steve Bruzonsky

09-07-08, 03:49 PM

Joey

you just don't get it.

I have no worries and no regrets about plunking down $30K on this PJ nor will I for years to come. It is just that good.
BTW if you had done your home work here on AVS you would know that MSRP is just that and none of us paid anywhere near MSRP for this PJ.
Simply put you need not preach to us as to how to spend our money and dare say I would never try to convince you of the same

AGREED. Folks like OB and ME are smart enough to figure out how to spend our own money and don't need anyone telling us what to do. Just like we don't tell Joey how to spend or hold his $$$$$$.

bleair

09-07-08, 06:45 PM

While waiting in line for the sim2 demo I overhead...
- the HT5000 is now updated to use darkchip 4 (not sure how long ago this change was made though)
- The dual lamp HT5000 has an MSRP of 72000. I don't think that's new, but ouch,
- sim2's new case manufacturing process is now much greener (less cast aluminum). Supposedly a bigger marketing point in Europe. I'm certain that US customers capable of buying sim2 products could care less how toxic or how much extra packaging our consumer good have. :)

The demo showed some clips on the c3x from the "Beyond HD" server. That was cool. Part of the demo clip included a runway fashion setting and it had lots of color. I never saw the original content, but it was a very pleasing image in my opinion. I love the idea of getting really clean HD material encoded so it preserves the original color space. Has anyone dug into the details for Beyond HD? Are they using a different codec? All blu-ray codecs limit you to 8 bits per channel (so even if your bitrate is 1000 Mbps, someone has still compressed the movie).

The sim2 demo was good, but the jvc demo, especially the 4k, made a bigger impression on me. I know, I know, not exactly a fair comparision. :)

joeycalda

09-07-08, 07:30 PM

CM $1000.00 a night hookers might be worth it for some, but then there on the other side of that fence with you.

AGREED. Folks like OB and ME are smart enough to figure out how to spend our own money and don't need anyone telling us what to do. Just like we don't tell Joey how to spend or hold his $$$$$$. I don't come on the forum and boast were I spend all my AV cash.

oneobgyn

09-07-08, 07:34 PM

CM $1000.00 a night hookers might be worth it for some, but then there on the other side of that fence with you.

now there is a real analogy Joey :(

JlgLaw

09-07-08, 08:07 PM

.... I don't come on the forum and boast were I spend all my AV cash.

I don't think those regularly posting here are "boasting." We are discussing the equipment we own, both positive and negative.

Clearly you are smart enough to recognize incomes differ from person to person and the products we chose to own are, to some extent, a function of these incomes.

Jim

Anthony A.

09-07-08, 08:19 PM

i really don't think anything in audio is ever a bargain. okay maybe a $500 receiver, but thats me. some people think your crazy if you spend $500 on a receiver. i have about $50k worth of equipment, yet i never tell anyone outside the hobby (including my wife), how much i have spent cause people will think im insane. and yet, many here have spend 3/4 of my entire system amount on a single piece of equipment. if one has the means and can do so, who cares what they spend their money on. is it worth it? if it is for the person who spent the money, then great for them. if $3k for a pj gets you 95% performance for you, than be happy that you don't have to spend more like other folks.

Steve Bruzonsky

09-07-08, 09:11 PM

CM $1000.00 a night hookers might be worth it for some, but then there on the other side of that fence with you.

I don't come on the forum and boast were I spend all my AV cash.

You are designated the officialo AVS "let us know we spend too much on our AV components". Does that make you feel better???

If some of us post about components that just happen to be stuff that you think we're foolish to spend our money on, just keep on going ahead and tell us how you feel. If you don't write LOUD ENOUGH we might not hear you. And we wouldn't want that, would we?:confused:

oneobgyn

09-07-08, 09:44 PM

I don't come on the forum and boast were I spend all my AV cash.

how about this post of yours

I purchased six Sony plasmas at $5000 a pop 4 years ago, they were worth the money for me

thebland

09-07-08, 09:46 PM

Classic.

oneobgyn

09-07-08, 09:58 PM

Classic.

Yup

In medicine we say that Joey is inflicted with "Wannabe Syndrome":)

thebland

09-07-08, 11:22 PM

err Munchausens by proxy. ...

joeycalda

09-08-08, 02:26 AM

I don't think those regularly posting here are "boasting." We are discussing the equipment we own, both positive and negative.
With some it's always a little bit of both

Clearly you are smart enough to recognize incomes differ from person to person and the products we chose to own are, to some extent, a function of these incomes. and thankfully I can afford such things, but I just don't think the projector in question is worth that... same way a lot of folk don't think Runco is priced accordingly.

now there is a real analogy JoeyActually it is, because neither one are worth it.

For myself HT purchases are with money that if I lost it would not effect my lifestyle or plans for retirement. If I upgrade and take a hit, then so be it but I won't buy anything without getting the best price and I'll only purchase with cash. . Yeah me to ..so what..I recently spent $180 on designer Ed Hardy baseball cap and another $150 on his t-shirt and $200 on his sunglasses. Two weeks later I realized it was stupid purchase..and I'll admit it.

Wannabe now that's funny..
See I wake up to this pic 1
work with this pic2
watch movies and music through this pic3
So I don't give a rats behind about this pic 4

I don't even wanna be Cold machine:eek:

Steve Bruzonsky

09-08-08, 02:38 AM

With some it's always a little bit of both

and thankfully I can afford such things, but I just don't think the projector in question is worth that... same way a lot of folk don't think Runco is priced accordingly.

Actually it is, because neither one are worth it.

Yeah me to ..so what..I recently spent $180 on designer Ed Hardy baseball cap and another $150 on his t-shirt and $200 on his sunglasses. Two weeks later I realized it was stupid purchase..and I'll admit it.

Wannabe now that's funny..
See I wake up to this pic 1
work with this pic2
watch movies and music through this pic3
So I don't give a rats behind about this pic 4

I don't even wanna be Cold machine:eek:

So whats worth it to you may not be worth it to someone else, and whats worth it to someone else may not be worth it to you.

So buy whats worth it to you and quit telling someone else what should be worth it to them.

Who the heck is Ed Hardy? I had no idea they had $180 baseball caps!!!@@
But I'm not gonna tell you that you shouldn't have bought it or make fun of you for doing it!

TheDesolateOne

09-08-08, 02:42 AM

Is that not the 720p model?

I'm positive CM has 2 C3X 1080p's, so he probably does not give a rat's behind about pic 4 too!! :)

And I wake up to this every morning, but still don't see the relevance...Maybe, I'm missing the point!!

joeycalda

09-08-08, 05:46 AM

Didn't mean to offend you Steve, sorry. I was taking a shot at the manufacturers and the clever marketing.

I get the offensive comments towards me, but I've been down that road before.

And I wake up to this every morning, but still don't see the relevance...Maybe, I'm missing the point!!
That picture was to show dumb and dumber what really is important in life and that I'm pretty happy even without a CX3..:p

For the guy who called me a Dbag (which to me was crossing the line) that's picture number 2...I spend 8 hours a day with 20 beautiful women..not a bunch of sweaty jockstraps.

The AV rack was for Lawguy..see that's a Levinson 40, Boulder 1010 and a Classe Omega on my rack at the same time. I've since sold the Boulder and the Classe. I shouldn't have to show my AV wallet to make a comment on a piece of gear, but so be it.

The last picture was to show the insignificance of that little piece of plastic.

TheDesolateOne

09-08-08, 06:27 AM

I like my C3X...

but I must admit, I like those women a whole lot better!!! :)

coldmachine

09-08-08, 06:58 AM

See I wake up to this pic 1
work with this pic2
watch movies and music through this pic3
So I don't give a rats behind about this pic 4

I don't even wanna be Cold machine:eek:

Joey you question peoples intelligence for buying "expensive" projectors compared to your Optoma. Thats bit like me saying your audio rack could be replaced with Bose Wave Radio.That's actually being kind to the Optoma. I think you're being a tad hypocritical to say the least when the self same argument applies to your own equipment

I dont understand the relevance of the pictures of women that are appearing.

Joey, those women in your second picture are not what i'd call "beautiful". They're average sports bar chicks. They're a good couple of notches down from beautiful

Remember how the big dogs roll............There are plenty cute little bitches just dying to gnaw on the big dogs bone.:)

QQQ

09-08-08, 07:21 AM

See I wake up to this pic 1
The one on the left or right?

Every time I think I've seen it all, someone stills surprises me. Now we've got a guy posting pics of his family and the waitresses he works with to prove he's got big balls too. I do have one question - do the waitresses share their tips with you after you clean the tables? And before you bust a nut Joey, that's a joke. I do think you should post pics of your Dad to prove he can beat up CM's Dad.

QQQ

09-08-08, 07:24 AM

I dont understand the relevance of the pictures of women that are appearing.

Joey, those women in your second picture are not what i'd call "beautiful". They're average sports bar chicks. They're a good couple of notches down from beautiful

Remember how the big dogs roll............There are plenty cute little bitches just dying to gnaw on the big dogs bone.:)
Well at least you aren't sexist ;) :). However, I think you are barking up the wrong tree here. If you pay careful attention, you'll notice that Joey said:

See I wake up to this pic 1
work with this pic2
In other words, that's a picture he has next to his bed and a picture on his desk at work.

coldmachine

09-08-08, 07:55 AM

I do think you should post pics of your Dad to prove he can beat up CM's Dad.

Thats twice you've cracked me up this morning.:):)

oneobgyn

09-08-08, 09:24 AM

Joey in Pic #1 I gather that is your mommy holding you on the way to the potty

GetGray

09-08-08, 10:05 AM

This is too funny. The "As the deep pockets bump soap" (opera) :)

QQQ

09-08-08, 11:08 AM

Joey in Pic #1 I gather that is your mommy holding you on the way to the potty
I can see Joey's going to be steaming when he logs back in. All those pics only opened him up to punch lines and he's still being "disrespected" :D.

Steve Bruzonsky

09-08-08, 11:52 AM

Joey, a suggestion. Not a good idea to post family photos, expecially kids, on a website like this. Just in case any predator gets the name and photo. Sure, not likely to happen. But one never knows and one never should take such a chance.

If we want to "show off" (ha, by discussing) our AV gear so be it. But we shouldn't show off family, especially kids, by photos on forum websites.

joeycalda

09-08-08, 02:03 PM

Thanks Steve that's understandable...dizz has a bunch of photos of his kids so I didn't think anyone was that type..but your right you never know..most of those types are internet lukers.

Jack & Jill can clamour all they want... you know how the story goes! Just not sure which one is the bi_ch. I thought it was Oneobgyn , now I starting to think it's CM....If that's the case I'd be careful, since he has this bone gnawing affliction...If you guys come to Canada to get married let me know, I will get a bulb to a CX3 as a wedding present. QQQ can be the ring bearer this is really starting to shape up!!

Joey

rsbeck

09-08-08, 02:41 PM

I met a guy who spends less than all of us. Not only on A/V gear. He's so intelligent, he never buys anything. In fact, he's homeless. He's kicking ALL of our a$$es! "You think a house is really worth hundreds of thousands times more than where I sleep?!" He taunted.

oneobgyn

09-08-08, 02:57 PM

joeycalda

09-08-08, 08:35 PM

My Public Apology:

I once seen a guy lose $500,000 in 15 minutes on blackjack...so maybe 30k is pocket fluff for some...I'll reserve my comments on valued related topics on this forum in the future..

Joey

oneobgyn

09-08-08, 08:39 PM

joeycalda

09-08-08, 08:56 PM

I'll stick around for a while, but the JVC 750 seems like a much more interesting projector at the moment..

Steve Bruzonsky

09-08-08, 09:00 PM

Get thee to the "Under $3500 Forum" and make haste:rolleyes:

TROUBLEMAKER!!!:D But we luv ya anyway!!!!:D:D:D:)

TheDesolateOne

09-08-08, 09:17 PM

This reminds me of the school playground...Very entertaining though :) I love it!!! :)

oneobgyn

09-08-08, 09:52 PM

I'll stick around for a while, but the JVC 750 seems like a much more interesting projector at the moment..

Joey..."Under $3500 Forum.....It works for you man. No one there to give you any $hite

oneobgyn

09-08-08, 09:59 PM

Joey...how do you say "eight ball in the corner pocket?"

Game, set and match

Steve Bruzonsky

09-08-08, 10:05 PM

I'll stick around for a while, but the JVC 750 seems like a much more interesting projector at the moment..

Joey, we all have our own price points and subjective wants and needs. Go for it.

OB and I have the same projector, screen and ISCO III/Cineslide, but that's where it ends. I have a great sounding audio and home theater system that I'm very happy with. OB has probably even an appreciably better sounding, at least two channel for sure, system, but its at a price level in the stratosphere compared to me and I'm not goin' there. But I don't say to OB that he should only buy what I have - I let him enjoy heart's desires. and someday I will visit and partake with him. And Joey, if you come to Phoenix, you're welcome to come over, too.

oneobgyn

09-08-08, 10:26 PM

Steve
Joey hasn't figured this out yet.

Steve Bruzonsky

09-08-08, 11:44 PM

Steve
Joey hasn't figured this out yet.

OB, I think Joey is starting to get it, so lets not belabor the subject,

and lets let this topic get back on track to the Sim2 projector!!!

rsbeck

09-09-08, 03:02 AM

Are we sure this new Sim2 with Dynamic Black will be a three chipper?

mark haflich

09-09-08, 11:10 AM

Yes. Just got back from cedia and spent lots of time with the Sim2 folks and demo, as well as with Jeff, Mark, Darin, Ken, Peter and a group of others. The new machine Alan started this thread about was not shown at Cedia but there was the case. Slightly different case, a little taller. From what I've heard, no upgrade path from the existing C3x1080 to this one. i think that's very sure because its hardware, lenses etc. Won't be out until end of first Q 2009.

Now what did we see. Forgetting about the entry level $5K machine (nice but not for the big boys). they demoed the C3x1080e and the C3x1080e HOST. The HOST threw a better picture than the non HOST. Richer or broader colors, better blacks and contrast. Viewing observations. Why.

Simple. The HOST version was loaded with new software and gamma curves to enable the showing of the the HD 45KB Entertainment experience source material. For that you will need the $10K server that Sim2 dealers will sell with movies purchased at $50 a clip from the EE folks. Its there server marketed for a while exclusively by Sim2. The movies come by mail on a double sides disc you load into the server.

Now the non host didn't have the new software. Good news the new software will go into either machine and will be a free upgrade. the HD stuff is DCI related and the idea is tohave a projector that meets the DCI standard. I am no expert here or probably elsewhere but normally this involves some yellow filtering and the Sim2 machine did not employ any and i don't think has plans to employ any yellow filtering in the c3x1080e and C3x1080e host. I would expect to see it in the HT5000 but no one said anything about the HT5000 at the show. I can reasonably state that this DC4 stuff is marketing by TI. They just renamed the DC3 plus which all your HT5000 have as the DC4. I would expect a software update for the HT5000 to display the new source server stuff.

i am really tired now having all sorts of plane delays and getting home at 3AM.

It is very hard to make valid observations at a show. What's due to the machine versus the source. different company people say different things. some info is given confidential.

regarding the Sim2 PQ obervations. One clip on the C3x1080e host loaded with the new software fed by the HD server and one clip on a standard C3x1080e, no software.

Regarding the new Hd stuff. It looks different colorwise because of the DCI standard. It will be closer to what one will see in a DCI theater. And that is different than what you see now at home. Is it better/ the new color spectrum or whatever does take some getting used to.

I am going back to bed.

oneobgyn

09-09-08, 11:22 AM

no upgrade path from the existing C3x1080 to this one

rsbeck, you owe me a penny :)

rsbeck

09-09-08, 12:58 PM

Not so fast, penny-meister. There may be no upgrade path from C3X1080 to the new projector, but does that mean that C3X1080's cannot and will not eventually be upgraded with Dynamic Black? If the answer to that is no, then I will pay you the penny, but not until then!!!

mark haflich

09-09-08, 01:09 PM

From what I've been told, the answer is no. But of course things coukl change. Always things could change but I think no will be correct. If you could settle now for a high fraction of a penny, I would pay it.

rsbeck

09-09-08, 01:20 PM

Hmmmmm.......how high a fraction we talking?

Steve Bruzonsky

09-09-08, 01:44 PM

mark haflich

09-09-08, 01:55 PM

Steve. Next year you will be in Atlanta. We miss you.

Steve Bruzonsky

09-09-08, 03:35 PM

Steve. Next year you will be in Atlanta. We miss you.

Sometimes less is appreciated better!!!@@@:

The past five years I have worked hard to have a family, a wife, a law practice, and not let my hobby too much overwhelm and overspend me.
I succeeded some would say up to the past year - upgrading most everything in my home theater, except my Theta CB3, which now looks soon to be HDMI 1.3 audio upgraded. Oh well! And that's not even going to CEDIA or CES that past four years!!!@@@

mark haflich

09-09-08, 04:34 PM

I sat with the new owner of Theta and his right hand man for an hour or so on the Cedia floor (actually we didn't sit on the floor but). Your name came up and we swapped a few stories. :)

Steve Bruzonsky

09-09-08, 04:50 PM

I sat with the new owner of Theta and his right hand man for an hour or so on the Cedia floor (actually we didn't sit on the floor but). Your name came up and we swapped a few stories. :)

Good ones I hope!!!@@@

Who did you talk to, Morris or Mike?

FrantzM

09-09-08, 06:05 PM

Hi

I have been out of the forum for a good while.. Coming back some... This was a really hilarious exchange.. :D
I am at the stage that not only do I KNOW that the Sony VW100 is surpassed, I can also see where it's lacking... Yet video is one of those interesting areas where progress is so rapid that it almost induces paralysis... I sincerely believe that the upgrade path should be thought of in the original design... I do not mind paying for the nec plus ultra but I would like my enjoyment of such to last more than a few months.. Seems that the improvement cycle in video is 6 months short... Not fun when 30 K is vastly surpassed by 10 K in a 6 months span literally before the drywall has dried up in the HT... Am I OT? .. to get back on track... Is the "old" CX1080p upgradeable to the new? Even if that requires a trip to the manufacturer?

rsbeck

09-09-08, 08:09 PM

Do you mean the old C3X720?

coldmachine

09-09-08, 08:29 PM

Do you mean the old C3X720?

I think the quotes in "old" are being used to signal unusual usage, thus meaning the current C3X1080 as opposed to the upcoming replacement.

rsbeck

09-09-08, 08:33 PM

Personally, I do not believe the C3X1080 is going to be "obsolete" for awhile.

The new projector is boasting higher on/off CR based on using Dynamic Black, which has received some mixed reviews; raves in the pro reviews, some complaints in customer reviews. The Samsung A800B has the Dynamic Black feature and Joe Kane recommends you leave it off. In a Planar thread, a Planar rep also recommended leaving it off. Even in the pro review where the reviewer praised the feature, he said he did not always prefer it. The Dynamic Black feature took the Planar 8150's native on/off of around 1,700:1 and increased it to a max of 6,000:1, more than tripling the projector's native CR. Interestingly, all reviewers praised the Planar 8150's black levels, even without Dynamic Black.

The C3X1080's native on/off is four times that of the Planar 8150 at around 7,000:1 (based on Coldmachine's report).

Also, interestingly, the new Sim2 C3 1080 is promising 30,000:1 on/off CR with the addition of Dynamic Black. Since the Dynamic Black feature more than tripled the on/off of the Planar 8150, my math tells me the new Sim2 projector's native on/off is going to be less than 1/3 of its promised max on/off of 30k:1, or somewhere quite close to the current C3X1080, but owners will have the choice of employing the Dynamic Black feature if they so choose.

Since we do not know what other features or upgrades the new projector might have, if any, and no one has even seen it yet, I say it is far too early to say that the new projector renders the current C3X1080 obsolete. If one does not prefer to use Dynamic Black, it could very well be very, very similar to the current C3X1080 and it is not like the existing C3X1080 has poor black levels or CR, either. IMO, the C3X1080 is too good a projector to be made "obsolete." IMO, this technology is now relatively mature and improvements from here are going to be incremental until there is a breakthrough like LED which is right on the horizon, but is still going to take awhile. Even then, I doubt it will render a projector like the C3X1080 "obsolete."

Think of plasmas. Does the newest generation render the previous obsolete? My opinion is no. I don't see people with 8th generation Pioneer plasmas dumping them in droves for the 9th generation.

The C3X1080 is great projector and I believe most people in the real world would be very happy to watch it for years to come.

Just my opinion.

.

rsbeck

09-09-08, 08:45 PM

Another point is that the existing C3X1080 *is* upgradable to take the new content delivery system offered by Sim2 and it is my experience that when fed excellent content, the picture on the C3X1080 is stunningly good.

coldmachine

09-09-08, 08:46 PM

Personally, I do not believe the C3X1080 is going to be "obsolete" for awhile.

I would stake my left nut that it wont be, and i don't think anyone is suggesting, or would suggest, otherwise.

There's still not a single announcement, let alone a product, that provides 3 chip 1080 for $30k despite the C3X1080 being a year old. Thats almost unheard of in this game. We're actually seeing companies trying to release new 720 3 chippers, but no one has taken up the 1080 gauntlet, other than possibly Sim2 themselves.

It was exactly the same with the original C3X... Infocus tried with the 777, but that was such a catastrophic and embarrassing failure they reduced the price by over 50% in less than a year, and eventually ended up selling it for less than the cost of the parts. They actually told shareholders that they totally underestimated what was involved in making 3 chip work,and that they couldn't match the cost or performance of the much smaller company because they lacked the inhouse technological expertise in terms of optics, electronics and software.

If it was easy to do you would see companies like Optoma trying it, but they don't because they have 2 problems...1. Lack of expertise, and 2. Their brand would be a total liability in the high end sector.

Thats what makes recent claims that it was over priced so utterly ridiculous.

Your PJ will still be rocking for a while to come.

rsbeck

09-09-08, 08:55 PM

I would stake my left nut that it wont be,

Man, we were just betting pennies. When you raise the bet, you raise the bet!

rsbeck

09-09-08, 08:56 PM

That's it -- I'm all in. <unzipping>

coldmachine

09-09-08, 09:04 PM

I tweaked that post slightly, but the nut is still up for grabs

howdydoody

09-09-08, 10:24 PM

I recognize that I will be bashed for posting this in this forum, however, as an owner of a projector that I paid more than 20k for some years back, and as someone who within the last month was looking to change to a sim2 1080, I am puzzled as to the lack of reasonable debate regarding a much less expensive projector that appears at first glance to be better in many (or even most regards) to the Sim2 pjs. Am I missing something about the Sim projector lineup that should make me consider not choosing the new JVC RS20 as the better projector regardless of price? Of course the disclaimer is that a side-by-side shootout has not been performed. It does appear, however, that reputable videophiles regard this less expensive projector as the projector to beat for those not needing an enormous screen. Does a price less than 20k exclude discussing the relative merits / disadvantages of this projector against those costing more than 20k (e.g. the Sim) in this forum?

owl1

09-09-08, 11:11 PM

Other than the new model designation, new case and incremental improvements of 100 lumens brightness, in what other ways is the RS20 significantly different from the RS2?

rsbeck

09-09-08, 11:11 PM

Am I missing something about the Sim projector lineup that should make me consider not choosing the new JVC RS20 as the better projector regardless of price? Of course the disclaimer is that a side-by-side shootout has not been performed. It does appear, however, that reputable videophiles regard this less expensive projector as the projector to beat for those not needing an enormous screen.(e.g. the Sim) in this forum?

Those same reputable videophiles have been in here saying the RS1 and RS2 were also superior to the C3X1080. I auditioned an RS2. I expected to like it just as much, if not more than the C3X1080 based on those reviews on the other forum. I wanted to like it, didn't want to have to spend the money to get the C3X, but after auditioning it twice, I found that it didn't float my boat. I thought the picture was nice and certainly a good bang for the buck, but I didn't get the same "wow" as with the C3X1080. I complained on the other forum about the annoying motion blur on the RS2 and several other owners and former owners chimed in and admitted it bothered them, too. That's extremely rare. On the other forum and even on this one if you say the JVC projector isn't the king of the hill for *any* reason, you'll get surrounded and pummeled by the hoards who own JVC on these forums. So, that was really something. I also found the RS2's picture to be a littled washed out looking compared to the C3X1080. Mind you, I saw both projectors with a 10' wide CIH set-up. My theater will have a 9' wide CIW set-up. So, some of the problem with the RS2 that I auditioned may have been due to it being shown on too large a screen. A good portion of the JVC
fans also use a Hi-Power high gain screen to make up for the lack of lumens -- I am not going to do that for several reasons, so the lack of lumens was too much of a concern and I saw how blah the picture looked on a large screen with 1.3 gain. Interestingly, I also thought the blacks and CR on the C3X1080 were better and more convincing than the RS2. This may, again, be due to the C3X's rather large lumen advantage. Of course, you will not see this discussed on the other forum. The C3X1080 also has a large advantage in ANSI CR. This is quite controversial, but it has been explained that high ANSI CR is associated with high MTF. You will not see discussions on the other forum about MTF or the effect of Lumens on CR. So, believe it or not, many C3X1080 owners are former JVC owners or people like me who auditioned the JVC RS2 and passed in favor of the C3X1080. The C3X1080 MSRP's more than four times the price of the RS2. There's nothing unusual about people claiming to like a piece of gear they happen to own better than a more expensive piece they do not and vice versa. The main point is that many of us have been down that road before, so unless we see the RS20, we will take a "once burnt, twice shy" type of stance. I know I will. But, maybe that's just me. I'm certainly not going to jump on it based on the same type of numerical argument that was used to support the RS2. The real point is that you have to audition these machines and decide your price point and what matters to you -- there are trade-offs and compromises and everyone chooses based on his/her priorities. Bottom line: If the RS20 makes you happy, go for it.

FrantzM

09-09-08, 11:14 PM

Howdy..
I think the important qualifier isfor those not needing an enormous screen
For a smaller screen, say around 7~8 feet wide.. maybe, just maybe the RS20 is all many would need... If one is however interested in large >10 feet wide screens, constant Height or ISCO lenses etc... the RS20 is out of its element...

howdydoody

09-09-08, 11:32 PM

rsbeck

09-09-08, 11:57 PM

The RS20 apparently has much superior optics than the RS2 and has a sharpness equivalent to the best 3 chip DLP. Additionally, the light output is significantly increased (higher watt bulb and less light dispersion secondary to improved optics).

It may or may not be true this time. As I explained these things were said by some of the same people about not just the RS2, but the RS1, too.

RSBeck, although I am a usual follower of "you get what you pay for philosophy", I recognize that with maturing (not mature yet) technology better products can be often had for considerably less in a short timeframe.

Yep -- I have a buddy who bought the first generation Marantz plasma for 25k. Today, we would consider that thing unwatchable and anyone would prefer a $1,500 panel to that one.

I was trying to get an opinion from people who are aware of the specs of the unit or have seen the unit that can tell me why I should still consider the Sim2. Price is not an issue, but I would be an idiot to pay more for inferior technology.

I doubt anyone here will try to talk you into the more expensive projector. Since you seem 90% convinced that you'd be paying up for inferior technology, IMO, it would be in bad taste to try to talk you into a projector MSRP'ing for four times the price of the one that already has you reaching for your credit card. The point is that if you have the interest, you should go out and audition these projectors and make up your own mind. Only you can decide your price point and what each projector is worth to you.

twenty/twenty

09-10-08, 08:28 AM

Howdydoody,

I saw both the JVC rs20 and the Sim2 C3x1080 demos at Cedia.

Moreover, I saw every video projector demo in the place except for the Samsung and the 4k Meridian.

I am no expert and not a professional reviewer, so take this for what its worth. I do not work for JVC and have no financial interest in JVC. Moreover, I do not own any JVC products. In fact, I do not even own a projector.

I am looking for a projector to use on a 9 ft wide stewart studiotek 130 2.35 to 1 screen. If I had a bigger screen, I might have changed my opinion.

I watched the RS20 for 5 minutes on thursday. I then watched the Sim2 D60/c3x1080demo. I then watched the JVC750 which is the comsumer RS20. I then watched the Sim demo again on Saturday. I finished the weekend with 30 minutes of the JVC 4k demo and 30 minutes of the RS20 demo. Saturday at JVC Pro was great because no one was there. I literally sat by myself about 10ft from the RS20 screen.

In the end, I preffered the JVC RS20 demo. I am highly annoyed by this because I can't use it in my setup due to my requirement for a long throw lens. The screen JVC used was a Stewart studiotek 130, at around 10ft wide. For me, it was plenty bright. The one caveat is that they did not demo it with an anamorphic lens for 2.35 to one stuff. I did see a brief demo of 2.35 to one and you could barely see the black bars above and below.

I made this comment on some other thread, but I felt the RS20 was better than the upscaled JVC 4k with standard res HD material, perhaps due to the size of the 4k demo screen. The demo video loop was the same for both. However, the JVC 4k blew EVRYTHING away when the native 4k material was being shown.

All that said, I have to add that I was very impressed with all the projectors everyone had this year. They all were much better than I had imagined. As it stands, and as I feared, I am probably going to have to pay a lot more for a projector, just to get what works for my room.

owl1

09-10-08, 08:37 AM

I think some of the above posts confuse the specs of the RS2 and the not yet released RS20. I agree that the RS2 is not exciting and I would have never considered as an upgrade to my current PJ. The RS20 apparently has much superior optics than the RS2 and has a sharpness equivalent to the best 3 chip DLP. Additionally, the light output is significantly increased (higher watt bulb and less light dispersion secondary to improved optics). The Reon processor is probably superior to the Gennum. This projector also has full CMS. I don't think the projector was designed to be limited to 7-8 foot screen. I have followed the posts regarding defects and reasonable product support for the Sim. I am not as familiar with the product support for JVC. RSBeck, although I am a usual follower of "you get what you pay for philosophy", I recognize that with maturing (not mature yet) technology better products can be often had for considerably less in a short timeframe. I recall the mid 1990's when upgrades to motherboards for existing pc platforms were offered, but within months, PC's offering undislputably better performance were available for unbelivalbly less than expected prices. I do not know if the "RS20 makes me happy" as you suggest, that is why I was trying to get an opinion from people who are aware of the specs of the unit or have seen the unit that can tell me why I should still consider the Sim2. Price is not an issue, but I would be an idiot to pay more for inferior technology.

Have been reading some posts of the CEDIA demo from some very credible members on this pro including a Sim2 owner who saw the 20 at the show and have to say if they've solved the motion blur issues of the DILA format, this seems like may be a very real and serious contender if the reportage is indeed accurate. I'd really like to see if this can light up a big screen 11-12 ft+ and get some objective numbers on their lumens as well as ANSI numbers for use with an anamorphic lens which can rob lower ANSI projectors of a great deal of the goodness that high ansi can bring.

Sounds to me like Sim2 might be feeling a little heat right now, and either come up with some stellar breakthrough technologies like LED or processing, and examining their QC as well as pricing to stay competitive in the PJ game.

mark haflich

09-10-08, 09:09 AM

Unbelievable how much BS is in this thread about the new JVC.

Much improved this, yada yada.

As an industry professional (just call me a money grabbing retailer), I spent considerable time with the JVC folks and Sim2 folks, talking and observing their new products.

Regarding Sim2, there was nothing to see regarding a new C3x1080 high contrast except for a case. very little info at this point.

What the focus was on was their alliance with the Entertainment Enhancement folks and that Sim2 would have the new HD server for sale through its dealers and that its projectors would have the gamma yada software to properly play back the enhanced hd format. By the second day of the show (not the first which tells you something about the readiness of the infancy state of the EE folks), Sim2 had a computer (not the server product) from the EE folks loaded with a clip of a film in the new format and showed it on their C3x1080e host which was loaded with the software necessary to properly show the new format. Sim2 made it clear that the changes were software and that this software would be a free down load for those already owning a C3x1080. Differing info was being discussed about the host machine being in a slightly different C3x case. The blacks and CR looked better and their was speculation that the new case and having some of the electronics in the host rather than host projector box might have allowed some optical path tweaking, though the sim2 folks maintained the improvements were due to the new format and software.

I do wonder about one thing and that is the need tofully meet the DCI standard of heavy yellow filtering. Optical filtering was not in the Sim2 machines. I suspect it could be easily added to the HT5000(perhaps requiring a machine service at Sim2). I wonder whether the C3x architecture would allow for this as well. I dunno. I think the official position is the filtering isn't needed, only software but I really dunno. This whole thing is really in its infancy. The EE demo on the C3x1080 was a better picture than the bluray on the non host C3x1080, but it certainly was not dramatically better. If you want the best source, probably worth the server price and $50 per flick charge. I see the HT5000 wanting this, wanting to stay leading edge. Many C3x folks will probably stay very happy without it.

I suspect this will not be the case when the new C3x comes out if there is a substantial improvement in on/off CR with significant artifacts or degradations from whatever is being done to improve on/off. If it is indeed an advanced DI, I think overall it would be a substantial improvement. For some source material where brightness compression might not be acceptable, one could always shut the feature of. i find a properly implemented DI to generally give a better picture (better more convincing blacks) but there are often some BC costs. Still I normally leave the DI feature on.

Now for the JVCs. The RS20 did appear to me to be a better machine than the RS2. I don't really get the keeping the RS2 at the top of the line position top performance at a higher price. There is a market segment that wants a JVC projector at a higher price point that the RS20. a MSRP of $9000 for the RS2 would give installers a higher priced option to sell. I know. I know. But that's the reason. I am not going to discuss it further. Nobody here should choose the RS2 over the RS20.

Now how much better is the 20 over the 2? It does have a CMS but a noted calibrator friend of mine (highly respected among AVSers) said the JVC system was a band aid and more was needed to allow a proper calibration. I'll let others more knowledgeable than idea discuss the JVC implementation and its short comings, if there are indeed any.

The picture looked sharper. I spoke about the lens being improved. i was told it was by a different manufacturer. They were working with the new manufacturer to make it better. I could not get much info or a demo of whether the thing could focus all three colors the same (which the RS2 lens can't). But it was sharper. The JVC said this might be due to lens variations. They would not make a big deal of the RS20 having a better lens. Bit from what I saw, it was sharper.

The processing was different. Better? Can't say. Worse? Can't say. There were some image problems discussed in this thread. I did get them to put a green grid. geometric setup was off. ilt big time indicating a quick rapid set upof the device or that perhaps it had moved after set up by some JVC groupy kissing the machine too hard.

The machine obviously has a bunch of improvements over the RS2 but there might be some backward steps too. Very hard to tell everything from a show demo. The Cine4review should tells us a lot more.

Better than a C3x1080. No way. Not even close but it certainly has much better blacks. Its the champ there. but lens quality, processing, brightnesss, ANSI CR, yada yada no way. Price difference vs performance? A personal choice. One really needs to view various machines side by side. Almost impossible to do commercially. Best to do with 2 people's machines in a shoot out but then who knows how they were set up? Good machines. Almost everything out there in FP land is good. Black levels are catching up. Sim2 sees the need to improve its on/off, ergo the new coming C3x or whatever.

Nothing couldn't be a lot better and nothing in any given price class is heads and shoulders better than something else. There is lots of competition. Obviously better blacks are easily observable and important. What machine did I find most impressive for the price at the show? I really like the Joe Kane samsung on the new Day Lite Joe Kane screen material although the blacks were nowhere as good as the RS20. Acceptable on the screen material. To me, the Samsung was a superior projector over all tot he RS20. But the RS20 was good and better than the RS2. If i owned a RS1 or RS2 and I wanted to stay in the JVC club, I would upgrade to the 20.

Art Sonneborn

09-10-08, 09:28 AM

Man, we were just betting pennies. When you raise the bet, you raise the bet!

Are you saying that CM's left nut is worth more than pennies

Art

oneobgyn

09-10-08, 09:36 AM

Are you saying that CM's left nut is worth more than pennies

Art

that comment was lower than the Dartos muscle on a pygmy with elephantiasis:)

coldmachine

09-10-08, 10:35 AM

Are you saying that CM's left nut is worth more than pennies

Art

My left nut may be worthless, but my right one is a killer.

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/axp090909/Elephantitis.png

coldmachine

09-10-08, 10:37 AM

that comment was lower than the Dartos muscle on a pygmy with elephantiasis:)

A good strong Dartos muscle, I wondered why your face was so wrinkle free.:)

Art Sonneborn

09-10-08, 10:41 AM

that comment was lower than the Dartos muscle on a pygmy with elephantiasis:)
Your eloquence is nearing that of CM on these boards.This isn't the guy who had to carry it in a wheel barrow was it ?:D

Art

oneobgyn

09-10-08, 11:41 AM

My left nut may be worthless, but my right one is a killer.

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/axp090909/Elephantitis.png

Cold

we have always been wondering what you looked like.

Took me a while to open the photo of you as my computer screen needed to be reformatted to get all of you in the picture.:p
BTW when you said a few days ago that you were on your laptop looking at that photo of you one couldn't really tell if that was fact or fiction ;)

coldmachine

09-10-08, 11:52 AM

Cold

we have always been wondering what you looked like.

Took me a while to open the photo of you as my computer screen needed to be reformatted to get all of you in the picture.:p
BTW when you said a few days ago that you were on your laptop looking at that photo of you one couldn't really tell if that was fact or fiction ;)

You better believe thats the real me. Thats what happens when you get one too many lap dances.

That nut sack is perfectly proportioned to hold a Pizza and a 6 pack. It just doesn't get any better than that.

rsbeck

09-10-08, 12:46 PM

Are you saying that CM's left nut is worth more than pennies?

Certainly to him.

rsbeck

09-10-08, 12:47 PM

Mark -- excellent report -- thanks!

oneobgyn

09-10-08, 12:56 PM

Mark -- excellent report -- thanks!

rsbeck

good to see that someone is still reading this thread for its original intent

howdydoody

09-10-08, 02:22 PM

Mark,
Excellent post. Your perspective is greatly appreciated.
Kevin

darinp2

09-10-08, 03:00 PM

Better than a C3x1080. No way. Not even close but it certainly has much better blacks.There are of course personal preferences and you are entitled to your opinion. If I was given a choice of a loaner for a year (so cost didn't matter), then for my dark theater there is a good chance I would take the RS20 over the current C3x1080. I would still want to see more of both and the next C3x1080 with more on/off CR could be a different story, but from what I know now the RS20 would have a good chance of being the one I would pick for that room under those conditions. For my downstairs setup with light walls I would probably take the current C3x1080 since I could use the extra light output for things like retaining ANSI CR (by using one of the gray or black screens) and fighting other lighting.

I don't know if the C3x1080s that people are buying are better than the two I saw at CEDIA last year and Definitive Audio not too long ago where there was visible misconvergence or chromatic aberration from the seats I sat in (relatively close). With the one at CEDIA this weekend I was standing in the back of the room and wouldn't have been able to see that from there anyway. I know you said recently that on a sub $35k machine you would tolerate 2-3 pixels off at the edges. Both the C3x1080s and JVCs can have misalignments at the screen, but at least for the center of the image the JVCs can be adjusted to within half a pixel with the digital shift feature. It will be interesting to see how the RS20 with new lens does in this regard. I'm not sure if the C3x1080s have any convergence adjustments that end users can make, but I don't recall reading about any.

--Darin

Health Nut

09-10-08, 05:15 PM

It looks to have the same footprint and the same case, or very close.

I would hope that they would provide a flat front baffle (non-curved), so that one can mount an anamorphic lens as close as possible. This is one of the most straightforward, easy changes to make. there is no reason to have a curving and sloped baffle that prevents mounting of the anamorphic lens close the the C3X 1080 lens.

Lack of details such as this leave me baffled, literally...

twenty/twenty

09-10-08, 05:27 PM

but then it wouldn't look like a "Ferrari".....now would it?

owl1

09-10-08, 05:43 PM

I would hope that they would provide a flat front baffle (non-curved), so that one can mount an anamorphic lens as close as possible. This is one of the most straightforward, easy changes to make. there is no reason to have a curving and sloped baffle that prevents mounting of the anamorphic lens close the the C3X 1080 lens.

Lack of details such as this leave me baffled, literally...

That's punny. Agree that that should be a design consideration . With the 3000e I had, the lens was almost too far away for the ISCO to focus, and I never did get it quite right. Never really bothered me with the C3X 1080 where the lens is closer to the edge of the case but IMO the one shown at CEDIA looks like a prototype case but more like the 3000e's case than the C3X's.

Were there any comments from Sim2 at the show about this being the finalized case or a mock up for the new C3X? Also, this may have come up but was there any mention about them possibly taking advantage of some of their juicy LED patents and bringing a projector out with that lampless tech in the future?

mark haflich

09-10-08, 06:17 PM

Darin. Nice spending time with you at Cedia. I still have a very fine CRT hung in my theater and for heavy dark content, I would watch on that. I think high native on/off is very important especially to run CRT like gammas but for lots of stuff on a high/on off a high gamma often to me is too dark. In bulb land there are so many factors needed for good PQ. There are trade offs. In some instances are am prepared to sacrifice high on/off for other attributes. The Joe Kane Samsung on his new screen material is one kick CM whoops ass projector. Just not record setting on/off but acceptable and much better than acceptable with the DI. I think the Samsung does a lot of things better than the RS20 but just can't challenge it in on/off and high gamma ability without crush.

Now for CM. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO HAVE ONE TOO MANY LAP DANCES. PARTICULARLY IF SHE AND YOU ARE NUDE. NOT POSSIBLE. Try to think a little more before you post something that obviously incorrect. :)

R Harkness

09-11-08, 09:13 AM

I think the Samsung does a lot of things better than the RS20...

Can you say what those things are?

If the reports of the JVC's performance (and I'm thinking of reports I've read not only on AVSforum, but AVforum and other foreign reports) are true (and they have been very consistent)...I'd really like to know what the Samsung would do better...especially in making it an obviously superior projector to the JVC.

millerwill mentioned that the first day he saw the JVC HD 750 he thought it was awesome, but the color of the Samsung projector really blew him away.
But the next time he encountered the JVC it had been calibrated (by Ken?) and then he found the Samsung no longer had that advantage and the JVC looked to him just as good color-wise...but obviously with richer contrast.

So what is your take on the differences?

Steve Bruzonsky

09-11-08, 09:22 AM

My left nut may be worthless, but my right one is a killer.

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/axp090909/Elephantitis.png

I guess not enough room to show your girlfriends, eh???

millerwill

09-11-08, 09:53 AM

coldmachine

09-11-08, 12:03 PM

I'm an unsophisticated novice (as an audiophile, anyway), but to me the RS20 was overall better than the C3X1080, as I saw them at CEDIA. Yes, the C3X was striking in bright outdoor scenes, but in typical darker movie scenes the detail just disappeared into black mush. Maybe it was the way it was setup; I certainly don't know. This was just my impression.

Im glad you're happy Bill, this could be the one to loosen that grip on your wallet. There is a Conga line thread on the other forum, just like there was 2 years ago.:)

Im going to mention something here that most certainly does not apply to you, but is relevant as we seem to be in danger of an infestation of JVC disciples eulogizing and speaking in tongues, whilst deranged on I.V. Kool-aid .................

I notice people can come here and declare their chosen budget PJ to be better than higher priced units. The same is not true when someone goes to the $3k forum and even mentions a high end PJ, let alone explains how superior their $60k unit is, compared with the current J6P bauble of choice. That would be crass and insensitive. I'm nothing if not a sensitive guy.:)

Coming the other way it just seems sadly delusional.

millerwill

09-11-08, 12:25 PM

Im glad you're happy Bill, this could be the one to loosen that grip on your wallet. There is a Conga line thread on the other forum, just like there was 2 years ago.:)

Im going to mention something here that most certainly does not apply to you, but is relevant as we seem to be in danger of an infestation of JVC disciples eulogizing and speaking in tongues, whilst deranged on I.V. Kool-aid .................

I notice people can come here and declare their chosen budget PJ to be better than higher priced units. The same is not true when someone goes to the $3k forum and even mentions a high end PJ, let alone explains how superior their $60k unit is, compared with the current J6P bauble of choice. That would be crass and insensitive. I'm nothing if not a sensitive guy.:)

Coming the other way it just seems sadly delusional.

Fare enough, CM. Yes, I'm not going to spend* $20K+ on a pj--even though I could certainly do so--so comparisons to these are indeed meaningless.

Craig Peer

09-11-08, 02:17 PM

This has been a great read! Forget about projector depreciation - what about wine? When I serve a $ 100 bottle of wine and it passes through my kidneys - now we are talking depreciation!! No resale value left that I can see..............

I have never regretted the money I spent on my dVision 1080p, even after seeing the RS1 and other newer projectors. And 3 chip DLP just has a look unmatched ( so far anyway ) by other technologies IMO. But I understand that machines in this price forum just aren't worth it to some. I won't pay 5K for a bottle of Chateau Petrus either. Especially considering the depreciation................

I can't wait to see this new C3X come out and see it!!

mark haflich

09-11-08, 06:26 PM

Steve Bruzonsky

09-11-08, 08:33 PM

Talk about depreciation. A 40 year old recently divorced friend is FTLS out of a his new 30 year old girl friend. He asked me if I would lend him some Viagra. I said no way. I certainly don't want that Viagra back after he has used it.

Your wife says that yo do it all without Viagra. Its the magic of HD porno on your Mike Parker modded 9" CRT no doubt!!!!:D

You could probably do it with only one nut, too!:D:D

Steve Bruzonsky

09-11-08, 08:34 PM

I notice people can come here and declare their chosen budget PJ to be better than higher priced units. The same is not true when someone goes to the $3k forum and even mentions a high end PJ, let alone explains how superior their $60k unit is, compared with the current J6P bauble of choice. That would be crass and insensitive. I'm nothing if not a sensitive guy.:)

Coming the other way it just seems sadly delusional.

Yea, not at CEDIA,but somehow a bit skeptical on hearing that, too!!!

rsbeck

09-12-08, 05:41 AM

Yes, the C3X was striking in bright outdoor scenes, but in typical darker movie scenes the detail just disappeared into black mush.

What do you consider a "typical" darker scene?

QQQ

09-12-08, 05:58 AM

Yes, the C3X was striking in bright outdoor scenes, but in typical darker movie scenes the detail just disappeared into black mush.
There is no doubt that the JVC has better on/off contrast but black "turning to mush" is about the as far away as you can get from what I would use as a descriptor of the C3X 1080's low apl performance. YMMV

Art Sonneborn

09-12-08, 08:47 AM

I've actually never seen a C3X 1080 but with the 5000 no doubt PJs like the RS2 have significantly better low APL performance. Blacks stay blacker when you get really low but shadow detail is not lost with the 5000. Literally, every other performance parameter except that is superior on the SIM.Having been a black level fanatic for a decade and seeing the HT 5000 head to head (A/B) against the best CRTs around ,I could easily see it was time to move on. Sure, I wish I had 100,000:1 on off also .

Art

millerwill

09-12-08, 08:47 AM

There is no doubt that the JVC has better on/off contrast but black "turning to mush" is about the as far away as you can get from what I would use as a descriptor of the C3X 1080's low apl performance. YMMV

Yes, I agree that this was too strong a way to put it (and did say so in another place I commented on it). Just meant to say that the detail in dark scenes was less than with some other pj's.

coldmachine

09-12-08, 08:56 AM

Yes, I agree that this was too strong a way to put it (and did say so in another place I commented on it). Just meant to say that the detail in dark scenes was less than with some other pj's.

Reminds me of the time a wise man offered me wise council on the use of restraint when expressing opinion.

Who was this great sage?

I can't, for the life of me, recall.:):):):):)

millerwill

09-12-08, 09:04 AM

Reminds me of the time a wise man offered me wise council on the use of restraint when expressing opinion.

Who was this great sage?

I can't, for the life of me, recall.:):):):):)

Ouch!

QQQ

09-12-08, 09:29 AM

Reminds me of the time a wise man offered me wise council on the use of
Who was this great sage?

I can't, for the life of me, recall.:):):):):)
I think "you" and "restraint when expressing opinion" would be an oxymoron :).

Stephan

09-12-08, 10:24 AM

I can't believe this is still going on. :D

There are advantages on both sides and I don't think there's a winner anywhere. In some situations I'd probably pick a JVC over HT5k any day and in others I wouldn't. It all depends on what one wants to do with it and what the personal preference is.

I personally can't stand watching 1-chip DLP. It has to be 3-chip, which is fine for me. Then there are people who can even see artifacts (color separation) with 3-chip DLPs. Some are bothered with the way DLP creates the image, by doing full on/off switches of the mirrors on the DMD. If you're sensitive to these things, then a LCoS/SXRD will be the better choice any day over any 3-chip DLP. That doesn't mean that one is better than the other.

Some who are claiming the Sim2 3-chips are the best projectors available are using Studio monitors on the audio side and/or Stewart microperforated screens, some even use Arcam electronics (hello CM :D). Personally I'd never do that, for me, I want something "better" sounding. But that doesn't mean the above won't work for other persons. If you're happy with a system, everything is fine.

Until we have perfect projectors, screens, amps, speakers and so on, there are no clear choices of what's the best or better/worse than other equipment.

coldmachine

09-12-08, 11:03 AM

Some who are claiming the Sim2 3-chips are the best projectors available

I dont recall anyone making such statement

are using Studio monitors on the audio side and/or Stewart microperforated screens,

I used CI versions of studio monitors with a perf screen as do many others. This is fairly common in large rooms and some of the best installer in the world go this route, with staggeringly good results. Please point out the error of our ways.

some even use Arcam electronics (hello CM :D).

The use of the word "even" clearly illustrates your intent was simply to be an assshole. Sphincterism aside, I tested a number of high and highest end units and the AV9 was the only one that provided a totally silent signal path when the gain was very high. The AVR350s are used on smaller systems

Personally I'd never do that, for me, I want something "better" sounding. But that doesn't mean the above won't work for other persons.

Please enlighten me, and others, as to why this seems lacking to you, and what you would consider ""better" sounding". Maybe you could start by telling us what you currently use.

A properly installed and calibrated HT comprising an HT5k/ISCOIII, a 14ft Vistascope with Genelec 324a and HTS6 sound is simply world class in every avenue. For anyone to imply or suggest otherwise is simply cretinous.

Stephan

09-12-08, 11:21 AM

Please enlighten me, and others, as to why this seems lacking to you, and what you would consider ""better" sounding". Maybe you could start by telling us what you currently use

You have been "enlighted" before by Robert in another Arcam discussion. But as I said before, if it rocks your world, it's fine and you should enjoy it. Others go other routes, with Lexicon, Meridian, Theta, Tact, ... when it comes to processors and Wilson, Revel, Isophon, Von Schweikert, Evolution Acoustics, Aerial, Eben, ... when it comes to speakers.

Again, if what you use works for you, that's fine. Others have other preferences and may not be happy with what you use. Just like some may not be happy with the C3X1080 and prefer the JVC. :)

coldmachine

09-12-08, 11:37 AM

You have been "enlighted" before by Robert in another Arcam discussion.

Who is Robert? I dont remember ever being enlightened on this point at all.

Others go other routes, with Lexicon, Meridian, Theta, Tact, ... when it comes to processors

Auditioned Lexicon, Halcro and Meridian. None were totally silent with at high gain

thebland

09-12-08, 11:47 AM

Who is Robert? I dont remember ever being enlightened on this point at all.

Auditioned Lexicon, Halcro and Meridian. None were totally silent with at high gain

Try the Halcro now.. IT hada major firmware revision last month. That said, even before, I only heard some noise from 2 ft at -3 from reference. Very quiet... Then again, I use balanced power which has helped.

coldmachine

09-12-08, 11:50 AM

Try the Halcro now.. IT hada major firmware revision last month. That said, even before, I only heard some noise from 2 ft at -3 from reference. Very quiet... Then again, I use balanced power which has helped.

Im on a blank sheet for my new HT so I'll look again. Thanks for the info.

rsbeck

09-12-08, 12:20 PM

Then there are people who can even see artifacts (color separation) with 3-chip DLPs.

This seems questionable.

Some are bothered with the way DLP creates the image, by doing full on/off switches of the mirrors on the DMD.

You left out those who are bothered by motion blur with LCD and LCoS.

Some who are claiming the Sim2 3-chips are the best projectors available are using Studio monitors on the audio side and/or Stewart microperforated screens, some even use Arcam electronics (hello CM :D).

What does admiring Sim2 three chips have to do with using studio monitors,
Arcam, and microperf screens?

Personally I'd never do that, for me, I want something "better" sounding.

So, what? What does a person's audio or screen choice have to do with their opinion of projectors? If you want to go down this illogical path, what about all of the people who swear by LCD and LCoS projectors and use AV Receivers and mid-fi speakers and hi-power screens -- I guess that disqualifies them from having an opinion on projectors, too. Does that make sense to you?

Until we have perfect projectors, screens, amps, speakers and so on, there are no clear choices of what's the best or better/worse than other equipment.

Nobody said there was. I don't get the need to come in and try to make a point that has already been made several times in this thread that people should pick that which makes them happy (of course!) and then to try to slip in these rather silly slights to audio gear or this indication that one's choice of audio gear and screen somehow makes less credible their opinion on projectors. It's also weird that you start off incredulous that this rather short thread is still "going on" and then you open up a can of worms with your inclusion of pretty ridiculous slams against certain types of audio and screens.

rsbeck

09-12-08, 12:32 PM

Just meant to say that the detail in dark scenes was less than with some other pj's.

Seemed to me that you were claiming that the type of dark scenes with which the C3X1080 allegedly struggles are typical, that dark scenes like this are more typical of average viewing than those in which the C3X1080 shines. So, I am curious to get some examples of these more typical dark scenes and I notice you refrained from listing any. Or, are you saying you misspoke and not only was the mush comment an exaggeration, but that your assertion that these particular dark scenes are more typical of average viewing was similarly exaggerated? Even so, I am curious to hear a couple of samples of these scenes.

Stephan

09-12-08, 12:33 PM

You left out those who are bothered by motion blur with LCD and LCoS.

If that's a part that bothers, there's always the option to buy a unit without such problems. And please don't tell me there are no such units. :)

What does admiring Sim2 three chips have to do with using studio monitors,
Arcam, and microperf screens?

Nothing, except for the point that those claiming Sim2 is always the best don't accept the opinions of others when it comes to projectors. Yet some are using audio equipment which most here wouldn't touch, maybe because it's too cheap, not known as high-end enough.

I've been into high-end long enough to know good enough that performance shouldn't always be judged by the price alone, which some seem to do. The C3X1080 is a nice projector and has benefits, but so do other projectors like the JVC. Just accept that other people prefer the one or the other, independant of price.

millerwill

09-12-08, 12:37 PM

Seemed to me that you were claiming that the type of dark scenes with which the C3X1080 struggles are typical, that dark scenes like this are more typical than those in which the C3X1080 shines. So, I am curious to get some examples of these more typical scenes and I notice you refrained from listing any. Or, are you saying you misspoke and not only was the mush comment an exaggeration, but the assertion that these particular dark scenes to which you refer are more typical of average viewing was similarly exaggerated? Even so, I am curious to hear a couple of samples of these scenes.

My comments had to do with the demos I saw at CEDIA, of the C3X1080 and the RS20. Don't remember what the specific 'dark scenes' were. So just take this as one guy's opinion, and not one who is an 'expert'. To be more definitive it would certainly be best to A/B these two pj's (and others) side by side.

QQQ

09-12-08, 12:41 PM

If that's a part that bothers, there's always the option to buy a unit without such problems. And please don't tell me there are no such units. :)
I personally can't stand watching any of them, I see it on all of them.

p.s. I'm just paraphrasing you word for word, see how that works ;). Oh but let me guess, it's different in reverse, right ;)?

QQQ

09-12-08, 12:44 PM

I just had a cool idea. On some of the blogs I read they have this little thing where they put a cute little troll hat on people who post in the comments section for no reason other than to troll. Wouldn't it be fun if they implemented that on a message board and when a troll shows up everyone could vote until he gets a troll hat. Might empower posters and make it more entertaining :D. There could even be different levels of troll.

rsbeck

09-12-08, 12:46 PM

If that's a part that bothers, there's always the option to buy a unit without such problems. And please don't tell me there are no such units. :)

Of course there are such units. This is why some people choose DLP.

Nothing, except for the point that those claiming Sim2 is always the best don't accept the opinions of others when it comes to projectors. Yet some are using audio equipment which most here wouldn't touch, maybe because it's too cheap, not known as high-end enough.

First, I don't see what one has to do with the other. Second, since when is a Genelec speaker system for a dedicated theater so "cheap" and on what basis is it so not "high-end enough" that it would call into question one's opinion on projectors? Seems to me like you picked a weird way to make your point. Weird in the sense that, IMO, this stuff muddles whatever else you were trying to say, not to mention the business about microperf screens. Microperf screens are also "low-end" in your opinion? Does that make any sense?

Stephan

09-12-08, 12:50 PM

I personally can't stand watching any of them, I see it on all of them.

p.s. I'm just paraphrasing you word for word, see how that works ;). Oh but let me guess, it's different in reverse, right ;)?

It's not different no, but if you see it on all units, then you will probably see it on DLP as well. ;)

As far as the dark scene performance of the C3X1080 goes, I found that to get better the higher you push the on/off. Once you go over 10k:1, I think there's nothing to complain about, but I'm not too sure on that yet. Time will tell.

rsbeck

09-12-08, 12:51 PM

There could even be different levels of troll.

To indicate the different levels, how about different sized propellers for the hats?

The Bogg

09-12-08, 12:52 PM

The use of the word "even" clearly illustrates your intent was simply to be an assshole.

See post 164 :)

coldmachine

09-12-08, 01:00 PM

Nothing, except for the point that those claiming Sim2 is always the best don't accept the opinions of others when it comes to projectors.

No one has ever claimed they are always the best. My next unit is extremely unlikely to be a Sim2 unit.

Maybe they will be the best when you implement these top secret improvements that you have said you are working on. I seem to remember claims of working with all the top manufacturers to do the same.

Yet some are using audio equipment which most here wouldn't touch, maybe because it's too cheap, not known as high-end enough.

Are you seriously referring the Genelecs with the above statement. I dont think there is a single person that would view them as other than of the highest of ends in both performance and price. Even you cant be that imbecilic

I assume its the AV9. Price has nothing to do with it but I dont think people view a processor that cost $6k at the time of purchase as too cheap. Most people here are unaware of Arcam. Their rep is to be light on bells and whistles but very high on sound. I bought it on the basis of its silent operation in direct competition to the best available.

If

rsbeck

09-12-08, 01:06 PM

My comments had to do with the demos I saw at CEDIA, of the C3X1080 and the RS20.

Well, let's narrow it down. Which films were they using to demo these projectors?

Stephan

09-12-08, 01:10 PM

Price has nothing to do with it but I dont think people view a processor that cost $6 at the time of purchase as too cheap.

I would consider a processor for $6 to be too cheap. :D

Seriously, I have nothing against Arcam, I think they're solid performers for the price. There's better, there's worse. But you'd be surprised how many people there are who would not even touch a $6k processor. I know people who would not even touch a speaker under $70k to $80k, because they're afraid their friends would make fun of them for owning "cheap toy" speakers. I've debated this back and forth so many times with so many people over the years and I'm really sick of it by now. But as I said before, to each their own, as long as it makes you happy, everything is fine. I buy the stuff that I enjoy, others buy what they enjoy. End of story. :)

rsbeck

09-12-08, 01:21 PM

But you'd be surprised how many people there are who would not even touch a $6k processor. I know people who would not even touch a speaker under $70k to $80k, because they're afraid their friends would make fun of them for owning "cheap toy" speakers.

You're all over the place. People who buy high end audio are more credible with regard to projectors than people who buy high end projectors? People who own high end audio are more likely to choose LCD and LCoS projectors than three chip DLP? Does this make sense? What does any of this have to do with the credibility of one's opinion regarding projectors?

...End of story.

Okay, but it was kind of a weird story.

.

coldmachine

09-12-08, 01:29 PM

Seriously, I have nothing against Arcam, I think they're solid performers for the price. There's better, there's worse. But you'd be surprised how many people there are who would not even touch a $6k processor. I know people who would not even touch a speaker under $70k to $80k, because they're afraid their friends would make fun of them for owning "cheap toy" speakers. I've debated this back and forth so many times with so many people over the years and I'm really sick of it by now. But as I said before, to each their own, as long as it makes you happy, everything is fine. I buy the stuff that I enjoy, others buy what they enjoy. End of story. :)

You're now simply trying to change tack on the sly to mitigate your stupidity. It was you who made the original comments regarding peoples choices and berating them, but you're just too much of a pussy to stand bye them.

Stephan

09-12-08, 01:43 PM

You're now simply trying to change tack on the sly to mitigate your stupidity. It was you who made the original comments regarding peoples choices and berating them, but you're just too much of a pussy to stand bye them.

If you say so CM and that makes you happy, keep on bragging and insulting people. After all, it looks like that's all you can do. Have fun. :)

rsbeck

09-12-08, 01:53 PM

if you see it on all units, then you will probably see it on DLP as well. ;)

Never heard anyone complain of motion blur with DLP. Ever. Some people complain of Rainbow effect with single chip DLP and some complain of motion blur with LCD and LCoS. No one complains about rainbow effect with three DLP nor does anyone complain of motion blur with either single or three chip DLP.

rsbeck

09-12-08, 02:00 PM

As far as the dark scene performance of the C3X1080 goes, I found that to get better the higher you push the on/off. Once you go over 10k:1, I think there's nothing to complain about, but I'm not too sure on that yet. Time will tell.

I'd be very surprised if anyone could tell the difference between 7,000:1 on/off and 10,000:1 on/off in a double blind test. Recently, several reviewers including AVS'er Tryg, who is a proud RS1 owner and black level enthusiast, claimed the Planar 8150's CR and black levels were equal to the RS1. Turned out, when measured, the 8150's on/off was less than half of the RS1's. Many RS1 owners claimed the on/off of the RS2 was not enough of a difference to get them to trade up and it is double the on/off of the RS1. To my knowledge, no one has tested to see how much on/off is needed to produce a Just Noticeable Difference, but based on evidence like this, I would guess it takes quite a bit.

darinp2

09-12-08, 02:02 PM

There is no doubt that the JVC has better on/off contrast but black "turning to mush" is about the as far away as you can get from what I would use as a descriptor of the C3X 1080's low apl performance. YMMVDid you see the C3x1080 demo at the show? One problem with judging stuff at a show is that you usually have to just go by the way they set things up and the source they chose. I saw what looked like lack of shadow detail in the SIM2 demo I attended, but I don't know if it was the projector or the source. The place I recall seeing it was in the National Treasure clip. But I haven't looked at that clip elsewhere to try to figure out how much detail is actually there, if they were using the Blu-ray version (which I'm not sure of). For all I know they could have been running an S-shaped gamma and that is why I saw basically a big black hole with no visible detail to my eyes at one point.

Is there anybody here who saw the SIM2 demo at CEDIA who disagrees with the lack of shadow detail there?

I also noticed what looked like near white crushing with another clip, but I think that was with the single chip DLP they were showing and also could have been in the source. Afterwards I was thinking about what might happen if some sources start getting done in a way that results in S-shaped curves even when running 2.2 or 2.4 gammas at the display or they run S-shaped gammas at the display and this is run on a projector with a dynamic iris. It seems to me that near white crushing is likely to get pretty bad when combined with a dynamic iris which may already bring near white crushing of its own.

--Darin

coldmachine

09-12-08, 02:03 PM

If you say so CM and that makes you happy, keep on bragging and insulting people. After all, it looks like that's all you can do. Have fun. :)

I wasn't bragging about anything, and I never do.

I wasn't the one to insult people either, that was you. Not only did you call into question the use of certain equipments, you specifically named me.

You were calling out people with perf screens, people with pro monitors etc. You were, very clearly, the instigator.

rsbeck

09-12-08, 02:04 PM

keep on bragging and insulting people.

Aren't you the same guy who was just bragging about your audio and insulting people who use Genelec speakers and microperf screens?

rsbeck

09-12-08, 02:07 PM

The place I recall seeing it was in the National Treasure clip.

To which scene are you referring?

Stephan

09-12-08, 02:10 PM

Never heard anyone complain of motion blur with DLP. Ever. Some people complain of Rainbow effect with single chip DLP and some complain of motion blur with LCD and LCoS. No one complains about rainbow effect with three DLP nor does anyone complain of motion blur with either single or three chip DLP.

I'm not saying there's motion blur to complain about on DLP, but just like there are LCD/LCoS with motion blur, there are some without. This depends on how the panel is driven and depending on how you drive it, it's gone. So if one still sees it, the logic says it also must be visible on DLP as in the end, you can get the same results.

I'd be very surprised if anyone could tell the difference between 7,000:1 on/off and 10,000:1 on/off in a double blind test.

Again, this is not about the difference between 7k:1 and 10k:1, as on/off is not the only thing that changes. Once you push it that high, shadow detail will improve and give better results.

Stephan

09-12-08, 02:13 PM

I wasn't the one to insult people either, that was you.

Wow, you sure have a way of twisting facts. :)
Where did I call anyone stupid, a pussy or any of the other things that you usually do when someone disagrees with you?

I think we should really leave it at that CM, I'm really just too tired to argue with you. Others have done this before me and it's not worth my time.

Stephan

09-12-08, 02:17 PM

Aren't you the same guy who was just bragging about your audio and insulting people who use Genelec speakers and microperf screens?

And where exactly did I insult people using Genelec speakers and microperf screens? I said they're not my cup of tea, that's it. If another opinion is an insult for you, I'm very sorry. After all I'm not the one calling people idiots or stupid whenever someone disagrees with me. But again, I'll leave it at that, it's simply not worth my time to argue around for the sake of arguing.

rsbeck

09-12-08, 02:17 PM

I'm not saying there's motion blur to complain about on DLP

Okay.

but just like there are LCD/LCoS with motion blur, there are some without.

Are you sensitive to motion blur or are you guessing here?

This depends on how the panel is driven and depending on how you drive it, it's gone.

It has to do with the technology, not how you drive the panel.

So if one still sees it, the logic says it also must be visible on DLP

Logic says something non-existent will never become visible, except in your imagination.

Again, this is not about the difference between 7k:1 and 10k:1, as on/off is not the only thing that changes. Once you push it that high, shadow detail will improve and give better results.

If it isn't enough of a difference in on/off to produce a Noticeable Difference, you will notice no difference.

rsbeck

09-12-08, 02:22 PM

it's simply not worth my time to argue around for the sake of arguing.

Hmmmm....seems to me like if you were short on time and energy, you could have just posted "everyone should pick the projector that makes him/her happy" and left the rest of that stuff disparaging various audio gear and screens out.

.

Stephan

09-12-08, 02:23 PM

Are you sensitive to motion blur or are you guessing here?

I'm very sensitive to motion blur and other artifacts.

It has to do with the technology, not how you drive the panel.

No, I've taken projectors with motion blur, applied several mods in hardware and software and the motion blur was gone. It is something that can be removed.

But I think that's a discussion for another topic. :)

rsbeck

09-12-08, 02:44 PM

No, I've taken projectors with motion blur, applied several mods in hardware and software and the motion blur was gone. It is something that can be removed.

Where and by whom was this verified? Not to cast aspersions, but this is the internet and unsubstantiated claims such as these often are not worth the ether upon which they're written. Please post a citation.

Stephan

09-12-08, 03:15 PM

Where and by whom was this verified? Not to cast aspersions, but this is the internet and unsubstantiated claims such as these often are not worth the ether upon which they're written. Please post a citation.

I've been using those for installations where frame accurate real time image processing is required. If you're interested in buying such a system or you want to demo one, please PM me.

rsbeck

09-12-08, 03:42 PM

I'm not interested in marketing. Since you posted no citation, I assume your claim cannot be verified.

Stephan

09-12-08, 03:49 PM

I'm not interested in marketing. Since you posted no citation, I assume your claim cannot be verified.

It can be easily verified by simply trying and looking at it. But it seems you have no interest in it. We're not selling or marketing this in the HT market, since there's no money to make there. If you're serious about seeing it, maybe visit RSNA. You should find alot of people there you can speak to and who can verify it.

cal87

09-12-08, 05:15 PM

To which scene are you referring?

The clip that they showed was the car chase scene through London after they left the palace.

rsbeck

09-12-08, 05:53 PM

If you're serious about seeing it, maybe visit RSNA.

I just visited their web-site. That's pretty vague.

Steve Bruzonsky

09-12-08, 06:03 PM

rsbeck

09-12-08, 06:08 PM

Radiological Society. http://www.rsna.org/

rsbeck

09-12-08, 06:35 PM

The clip that they showed was the car chase scene through London after they left the palace.

I've managed to avoid this film until now, but I am curious to see the sequence. A quick check showed there is an original plus two sequels. Is this sequence in the first one?

Which film and sequence was being used to demo the RS20?

millerwill

09-12-08, 06:40 PM

I've managed to avoid this film until now, but I am curious to see the sequence. A quick check showed there is an original plus two sequels. Is this sequence in the first one?

Which film and sequence was being used to demo the RS20?

Hey, Beck, give it up. Not even its strongest advocates think the C3X1080 does dark scenes as well as the JVC's (though they think it does other things much better).

rsbeck

09-12-08, 08:19 PM

Hey, Beck, give it up.

Excuse me. Give what up? I'd like to see the scene on my C3X1080 to see what you're talking about.

Why would you want me to avoid doing that?

rsbeck

09-12-08, 10:42 PM

Okay, I went out and purchased National Treasure. Gonna watch it with the kids tonight, check out the car chase sequence, see what I can learn. Hope this movie has a half-way decent plot.

oneobgyn

09-13-08, 12:20 AM

Okay, I went out and purchased National Treasure. Gonna watch it with the kids tonight, check out the car chase sequence, see what I can learn. Hope this movie has a half-way decent plot.

I hope you got it on BluRay

cal87

09-13-08, 12:41 AM

Hope you got National Treasure 2, cuz that's the one we are talking about. Sorry, just getting back to this thread.

rsbeck

09-13-08, 04:12 AM

I got National Treasure on Blu-ray. Watched it with the kids. Not as bad as I thought it was going to be. Needless to say, it was not the right one -- NOW you tell me. Thanks guys -- big help!

Michael W.

09-13-08, 09:35 AM

I'm very sensitive to motion blur and other artifacts.

No, I've taken projectors with motion blur, applied several mods in hardware and software and the motion blur was gone. It is something that can be removed.

But I think that's a discussion for another topic. :)

Then obviously the motion blur is not inherent in the panel technology if you can remove it by doing things to the source prior to the projector displaying it. There is inherent blur during motion in 24 fps film that you can even see in the theater, Sony's 120hz Motion Flow effectively removes a lot of this, but this has nothing to do with the technology of the panel used in a projector. However, this sort of motion blur is entirely different to the motion blur issues seen with the D-ILA panels which specifically don't exist in DLP technology.

cal87

09-13-08, 10:21 AM

I got National Treasure on Blu-ray. Watched it with the kids. Not as bad as I thought it was going to be. Needless to say, it was not the right one -- NOW you tell me. Thanks guys -- big help!

FWIW, I don't think there is anything special about the movie or that particular scene, it is just what Sim2 chose to demo. Some parts of the movie look spectacular, some pretty mediocre. NT2 also fun to watch with the kids though.

rsbeck

09-13-08, 01:22 PM

That's what I thought of National Treasure 1 on Blu-Ray. Not a bad film, more fun than I thought it was going to be, the kids enjoyed it. A few demo quality sequences, especially a chase sequence at night after they've stolen the Declaration of Independence, but a lot of it is mediocre as far as video quality.

rsbeck

10-07-08, 04:56 AM

Any new info on this projector?

Warren460

11-15-08, 04:21 PM

Another month goes by,

Anything new on this projector?

Alan Gouger

11-15-08, 06:23 PM

It is not to ship until end of Nov first of Dec.

rsbeck

11-15-08, 06:34 PM

Price?

JlgLaw

11-16-08, 12:35 PM

I've been told there may be a few evaluation units available during the period Alan mentioned above, but that we are still a couple/few months away from from having units we can sell. That update was as of last Friday.

Jim

Scott Wallace

11-16-08, 03:04 PM

Very interesting! Will there be an upgrade path for existing C3X1080's?

There is never a way to do something like this. It's a new projector. In another year or so, there will be a new model with even better contrast and lower black level and there won't be a way to upgrade an outdated model then either. And manufacturer's aren't going to stop trying to make things better, so unless you wait until the end of time, you just have to jump in and get the best you can afford when you want to buy. Don't mean to sound harsh, but I'll never understand why forum members get mad at manufacturers for making better stuff. If you buy a Nissan Maxima in 2007, are you furious if Nissan won't "upgrade" your 2007 to the 2008 model? Of course not, it's a new product! I don't know why people don't get that electronics with very few exceptions (God bless you 800 series Meridian) are in the same boat :rolleyes:

JlgLaw

11-16-08, 03:39 PM

Price?

As of last Friday, price had not been set by Sim2. We may know more in a week or two (Although I have to agree with the post above, I've heard it is likely to be "a little more" than the current C3X1080 pricing).

Also, as Scott noted, there is no upgrade path for current C3X 1080 owners.

Jim

Jason Turk

11-17-08, 11:07 AM

I just talked to the national sales manager. They are ahead of schedule and should be shipping December. Pricing is not finalized, but it WILL be more than the current C3X1080 for sure.

Mark Petersen

11-17-08, 11:41 AM

This projector sounds killer. I'd love to demo it and measure the static and dynamic intra-image contrast on this projector and see how dynamic black compares to other native and dynamic technologies. If anyone happens to be buying one in the SoCal area please PM me.

rsbeck

11-17-08, 12:41 PM

There is never a way to do something like this. It's a new projector. In another year or so, there will be a new model with even better contrast and lower black level and there won't be a way to upgrade an outdated model then either. And manufacturer's aren't going to stop trying to make things better, so unless you wait until the end of time, you just have to jump in and get the best you can afford when you want to buy. Don't mean to sound harsh, but I'll never understand why forum members get mad at manufacturers for making better stuff. If you buy a Nissan Maxima in 2007, are you furious if Nissan won't "upgrade" your 2007 to the 2008 model? Of course not, it's a new product! I don't know why people don't get that electronics with very few exceptions (God bless you 800 series Meridian) are in the same boat :rolleyes:

Hi Scott, I am not sure why my question provoked this response.

1) In the past, Sim2 has provided an upgrade path for certain projectors, so I see nothing wrong with asking.

2) Even if they don't, I am extremely happy with my projector.

3) I have not expressed any anger at all towards Sim2 for any reason. My projector has worked flawlessly since day one, don't need an upgrade to be happy with it, have expressed zero regret and zero irritation that Sim2 has come out with a new projector.

4) I still believe there may be a possibility that Sim2 will eventually offer some kind of upgrade path to current owners, but I have not written that this is necessary for me to continue to be happy either with Sim2 or my projector.

5) If the new projector proves a significant upgrade in performance such that it causes me to feel I can no longer enioy my projector and must upgrade to remain happy and Sim2 provides no upgrade path to existing customers, I will deal with it when the time comes. That point has not yet arrived so projecting ahead is unwarranted at this moment. I have written nothing to suggest I will be angry at Sim2 for "making better stuff."

.