...regarding why I have to go to Canada to buy a HDD DVD Recorder and besides.... where are the ATSC tuners? (There are a plethora of European Pioneer HDD DVDR with DVB/T)

This may be fairly difficult because it looks like Pioneer has many separate units with their own CEO's of which Pioneer USA is one.

So the first question is which unit decides what comes into the US?

I'll start with USS CEO Yamamoto...

PS. I think it would be really cool if a number of people decided to do what I am doing. CEO's usually don't get customers seeking an audience. Like one CEO audience might have the weight of 10-100 letters. 5 CEO audiences might make them think it is a revolution (sort of a la Alice's Restaurant).

Good luck, its worth a shot. Although you'll probably get the same canned reply from Pioneer that other hobbyists have received from Panasonic, Sony and Toshiba: "there is no market for these units in the USA so we will not be updating with ATSC tuners or releasing new HDD-equipped recorders in the forseeable future".

While I normally view these canned responses with suspicion, it really does seem to be true that not enough people want to buy one of these to make them worth marketing here. Phillips has had the USA DVD/HDD market all to themselves since Pioneer and the others all pulled out in 2006, yet two years later Phillips has reported totally dead sales will cause termination after the 2009 model year. Note Panasonic recently pulled out of Canada as well as the USA, meaning a no-confidence vote across all of North America. The only dee-luxe units left on the market are the Canadian Pioneers: if they can hang on until Canada goes ATSC maybe the tide will turn. But I doubt it: Future Shop can't give them away and Canada CostCo is totally fed up with all the returns from clueless consumers who can't even locate the power switch.

The difference between the European DVB/T models and potential USA ATSC machines is that the DVB/T models sell. A lot. Europeans have much heavier dependence on OTA broadcasts and little competition from cable/satellite DVRs. Much bigger market for recorders there willing to pay higher prices, further bolstered by the strong Euro.

Future Shop can't give them away.....

Ouch that hurts. I went to 2001 in Burlington and got screwed (didn't buy anything.)

Looks like I might have had a fighting chance at FS.

BB over the phone said they could knock off "$40 to $50" on the 550 and 650.

As far as Philips can't sell them. What are they offering anyway: a cheap, unreliable, obsolete, model.

Years ago, Philips had a model that had component video inputs. But they never actually manufactured that model. (I actually posted info about that model on this site, but I've never been able to find that posting....)

Ho Hum.

Anyone with 2 communicating brain cells knows that the product would be a DVDR w/HDD that would record Hi Def with some fancy Codec - even mpg4. With DVD-DL, you would be close enough for HD recording - especially when BD media will always be too expensive to use anyway. Show me BD at $1 a pop and you'll get my attention.

HaHa. And they wonder why there is no market.

Can they be that stoopid.... (well, er, yes they can: Betamax -v- VHS) [Probably too much sushi and lack of use of those darn samurai swords they display as curios.]

I mean Good God Man, D-VHS can record Hi def.

I wonder how China is doing their own thing? I know they cozied up with VMD which made way more sense than BD or HD. They even had EVD up and running.

No wonder The World hates us. I hate us.....

...just shoot me....
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Post Thought: Hummm... a while back I posted that DVD was actually sort of like the Elcassette in that it had some modern features, but basically couldn't do anything about HD. In that regard it was obsolete re D-VHS. So with D-VHS and DVD and BD, there is a complete void in the market: NOTHING TO REPLACE VHS

How ironic!

Maybe the whole HDTV thing is starting to collapse to some extent as some have predicted and hoped for (me included. No HDD? Off to the Cornfield with you....)
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EDIT: Well, there is something to replace VHS: D-VHS but it suffered because it was too expensive. Nevertheless, it is the only format with actually works with all this crap. I don't think BD will ever become a viable replacement for D-VHS.

As far as Philips can't sell them. What are they offering anyway: a cheap, unreliable, obsolete, model.

The 3576 is at the perfect price/feature point for the USA market and still bombed from lack of consumer interest. This had nothing to do with the quality, which is actually rather better than previous Phillips designs: the machine itself is pretty reliable (at least it beats a Panny EZ-series). Most of the complaints center around the ATSC tuner having trouble when hooked up to boxless cable. Those complaints are universal with *every* ATSC/analog-capable recorder: the tuners are unstable and cable systems screw with the QAM spec causing it to fail. Expecting cable companies to cooperate with anything that benefits the public is like complaining about the weather.

Years ago, Philips had a model that had component video inputs. But they never actually manufactured that model.

Because that model came out as the Polaroid 2001 and was so unreliable it failed moments after plugging it in. A dozen members of this forum managed to get good ones and keep them functional, the rest went up in smoke. After seeing that fiasco Phillips told Funai not to bother making a Phillips version. Component input also requires too much thought from the average consumer, who can barely manage to hook up a coax antenna cable. Phillips was not in the "prestige" segment that can promote a sophisticated feature like component inputs: a better question is why haven't there been more Pioneer Elite or Sony ES recorders with component inputs?

Anyone with 2 communicating brain cells knows that the product would be a DVDR w/HDD that would record Hi Def with some fancy Codec - even mpg4.

Its available now from Panasonic in three different models, recording HiDef to cheap DVD-R. You'd have to live in London or Sydney and be willing to pay $1900+ for the machine, but your dream has materialized. You're just in the wrong part of the world on the wrong money system at the wrong time. No way no how is anyone in America going to pay $2000 for a DVD recorder when you can't even get them to pay $100 as it is.

HaHa. And they wonder why there is no market.

Oh, there's a market all right: we're proof of that. Its just not big enough here to make it worthwhile for mfrs to bother anymore. Europeans pay double and keep the units after they buy them, Americans want to pay below cost and 3 out of 5 return them to the store after a week. Which market would you cater to?

Years ago, Philips had a model that had component video inputs. But they never actually manufactured that model. (I actually posted info about that model on this site, but I've never been able to find that posting....)


Philips did sell a DVDR w/component inputs. I saw one at a pawn shop a while back for $80. I was tempted until I checked the AVS archives:eek: It wasn't pretty to say the least. At the time their was talk about a class action suit against Philips for making such a POS. Needless to say I didn't waste my $80:cool: The archives are sure nice:cool:
edit:Oh the one I saw didn't have a HDD. If you were talking about one with a HDD you may be correct that they didn't mfg. that one.

There were actually a few Philips branded, and also Sony DVD recorders, that had component inputs a few years back. My Sony RDR-HX900 has them.

Yeah, I had one of those Philips, and I returned it the very next day, mostly because of it's lousy PQ. Paid more and got the Panny E85H the next day, and never looked back.

Europeans pay double and keep the units after they buy them, Americans want to pay below cost and 3 out of 5 return them to the store after a week.I know this didn't apply to the older recorders (but they were also a lot more expensive, and people probably didn't think they were worth what they paid once they tried them), but as far as with the Philips/Magnavox models, I'll bet at least half of the returns are due to that QAM tuner issue.

That Philips model with component input looked nothing like the Polaroid. It was supposed to be a high end DVDR. In fact, it looked a lot like the Toshiba RD-XS34. There might have been some talk about recording 5.1, but I don't remember - I tried to find my references to my post, but never could. I think it was a 4 digit model number beginning in 3. Big help, huh?

If the "problem" with the Philips ATSC tuner is actually not a problem, then that is bad for Philips. Complaints about that tuner definitely got me thinking against that model. But if it is systemic with all ATSC tuners, that is unfortunate.

Again, everyone is wanting to get that HD TV for their homes so there is a market for the TV's. The failing Philips sales are because they saturated the market for those wanting an "old-school" HDD DVDR. A survivalist niche. Looking forward, no one should want one of these Philips. Unless Philips did their homework and provided HD recording onto DVD and DVD-DL, why would anyone want to invest in one?

Then, the story would be much different. Already there are DVDR that record in MPG4 for instance. And as far as recording 5.1, there should not be any kind of "licensing issue" because D-VHS does that in its sleep.

Even cheap Kodak digital cameras record in 720p.

Anyone saying "there is no market in the USA" sounds like propaganda since it is unbelievable.

I mean even Brazil is doing their own thing. What kind of market can there be in Brazil? Answer: none compared to USA.

I have heard of the QAM tuner issue with some Panasonic and other brand's tuners, but not nearly as often. It seems to be mostly problematic with the Funai-made ones (Philips, Magnavox, Toshiba).

Post Thought: Hummm... a while back I posted that DVD was actually sort of like the Elcassette in that it had some modern features, but basically couldn't do anything about HD. In that regard it was obsolete re D-VHS. So with D-VHS and DVD and BD, there is a complete void in the market: NOTHING TO REPLACE VHS

How ironic!

Maybe the whole HDTV thing is starting to collapse to some extent as some have predicted and hoped for (me included. No HDD? Off to the Cornfield with you....)
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EDIT: Well, there is something to replace VHS: D-VHS but it suffered because it was too expensive. Nevertheless, it is the only format with actually works with all this crap. I don't think BD will ever become a viable replacement for D-VHS.

They do have a replacement, it's called a cable/satellite DVR.

Yeah, it isn't a direct replacement (no removable media, quirky performance, rental fees), and wholly inadequate for the video enthusiast, but look at the large market. They just want to timeshift their shows easily and a DVR does that. The thing about VHS is that even Joe Six-Pack could pop in a tape and start recording, and the smarter ones could even program the timer. ;)

And the Joe Six-Packs of the world are what dictate the market, because their numbers are enormous.

Anyone saying "there is no market in the USA" sounds like propaganda since it is unbelievable. I mean even Brazil is doing their own thing. What kind of market can there be in Brazil? Answer: none compared to USA.

Its not unbelievable to the bean counters at the mfr accounting depts. Americans are spoiled absolutely rotten by proprietary cable and satellite DVRs that practically read your mind and timeshift your favorite programs before you even know you wanted to see them. This very simple reality is beyond the grasp of many techie recordists here who cannot imagine a world without removable media and/or hi-def, so they say its "unbelievable".

Well, start believing: do you think for one nanosecond Japan would leave a dime on the table if there was ANY money to be made selling this product in the USA? There just isn't, period. In other parts of the world, there is a much greater percentage of consumers like those on this forum, who are not intimidated by technology in the home and who prize removable media recording. America, while a huge market, can also be lumbering and monolithic on some points and one of those points is video recording. For Americans, all permutations of video recording were merely the means to an end, that end being time-shifting. Once we got a taste of cable/satellite DVRs, it was lights out for any other competing device: nothing comes close to the ease and integration of these proprietary DVRs. The primary goal for Americans is timeshifting: permanent recordings for our home libraries was conceded some time ago to retail studio DVDs over home "taping".

Other countries do not have the cable or satellite penetration of the USA, they are far more dependent on OTA broadcasting. OTA lends itself very well to easy recording and timeshifting with a DVD/HDD recorder, which is why, YES, there is a healthy market for the things in Brazil but not the USA. The second you add cable or satellite service to the mix, the entire independent recorder advantage flames out for the average consumer. For every member here like Rammitinski who dotes on TVGOS and IR blasters, there are a hundred Joe SixPacks who think we're out of our collective minds for monkeying with that sh*t when the obviously superior cable DVR (or TiVO service for OTA) exists. They don't care whether its HD or not, they don't care that it costs a monthly fee: they DO care that its easy.

There is no earthly reason to buy a DVD/HDD recorder for $250-500 unless you very adamantly desire hard copies on removable media. Nine out of ten Americans don't desire it. No desire = no market: its that simple. I don't like it, you don't like it, but we're the minority opinion. Nobody else cares.

Maybe the whole HDTV thing is starting to collapse to some extent as some have predicted and hoped for..Well, I for one never hoped it would, but it has collapsed as far as the declining PQ goes over the years since it's introduction to the masses here.

Well, start believing: do you think for one nanosecond Japan would leave a dime on the table if there was ANY money to be made selling this product in the USA?

If they were to sell what we want, they would have to eat their plan of BD world domination. It is bad business practice to compete with yourself - especially with a product that may not be tenable that you have mortgaged your business on.

The goal for Americans is timeshifting, acquiring permanent recordings for our home libraries shifted some time ago to retail DVDs over home "taping".

Well yes, when the only technology was VHS and S-VHS which were both crapy.

there are a hundred Joe SixPacks who think we're out of our collective minds for monkeying with that sh*t when the obviously superior cable DVR (or TiVO service for OTA) exists. They don't care whether its HD or not, they don't care that it costs a monthly fee: they DO care that its easy.

JSP only knows he wants the HD TV to watch football on. He doesn't know what a DVR is. He wants to know how to hook up his VHS machine to his HDTV. JSP hasn't figured out that he has been cheated yet. When he realizes he can't keep a copy of the Superbowl with his new HDTV, that is when things will come into their own.

I take that back, JSP doesn't clearly understand DTV yet.

The "market" that they say is missing in USA is, well, actually missing because it has not evolved yet.

It is sort of like a Chicken and Egg problem: there is no demand because there are no products. If you build it, they will come - I still believe in it.

One other market force is TiVo and EchoStar and DVR patents. It seems the industry goes way out of its way top be sure that there are no IEEE-1394 ports on STB's and OTA boxes which would allow HD recording to D-VHS and PC's.

Again, domestic forces acting against us (EchoStar patents) and abroad (propping up BD sales).

Missing IEEE-1394 is so bad, people will spend $500 to have it custom added to the satellite STB!!!! Now that's a market!

For every member here like Rammitinski who dotes on TVGOS and IR blasters, there are a hundred Joe SixPacks who think we're out of our collective minds for monkeying with that sh*t when the obviously superior cable DVR (or TiVO service for OTA) exists.What monkeying? I set it up once, and never have to touch it again. The only "monkeying" I have to do is set timers on the recorder, but with the one I have setup that way, I don't even think I've recorded more than one or two things with it so far in the two months I've had it (it's not even on my main TV - I have a Sony DVR I use on that one) - so I'm certainly not "doting" on it here. I agree that most Joe Six Packs wouldn't even want to mess with timers, but as far as myself, I don't mind, becuse I don't even use it that much anyway. Just wanted to point out that it's not that important to me, personally, like you make it sound. It is moreso for others here, but not me - I'm just trying to help those people out.

Some people are just glad they have that option, because there isn't any other really dependable one so far, and that way pretty much is. At least in my case, it's never failed me. I'm not making a bigger thing out of it than it is for the people concerned with that. As long as the two timer-featured CECB boxes out there are depending on PSIP time, they're gonna have problems. If you have an IR blastered recorder, might as well use it that way, because it's much more dependable. When your recorder dies, you can just get one with a built-in tuner then, and not have to worry about any external box with timers (hopefully there'll still be some HDD units around by then, but if you're doubtful, just buy one now and hold onto it for later).

As far as TVGOS, most people with it not on a Pioneer recorder either like it or just don't care for it and don't use it. They have no reason to bash it, though. Never had to do much "monkeying" with that, either, once it's set up.

JSP only knows he wants the HD TV to watch football on. He doesn't know what a DVR is. He wants to know how to hook up his VHS machine to his HDTV. JSP hasn't figured out that he has been cheated yet. When he realizes he can't keep a copy of the Superbowl with his new HDTV, that is when things will come into their own.


Consumer HDTV has been out for a decade now. DVRs almost as long.

I'm pretty sure if there was going to be an outcry by JSP, it would have happened years ago. ;)

...regarding why I have to go to Canada to buy a HDD DVD Recorder and besides.... where are the ATSC tuners? (There are a plethora of European Pioneer HDD DVDR with DVB/T)

This may be fairly difficult because it looks like Pioneer has many separate units with their own CEO's of which Pioneer USA is one.

So the first question is which unit decides what comes into the US?

I'll start with USS CEO Yamamoto...

PS. I think it would be really cool if a number of people decided to do what I am doing. CEO's usually don't get customers seeking an audience. Like one CEO audience might have the weight of 10-100 letters. 5 CEO audiences might make them think it is a revolution (sort of a la Alice's Restaurant).The CEOs will agree with you 100% as they all like to see their product sell to the masses and go in to history books. The 'FCC' is the one that you'll have get through because they've been fed like tobacco companies.

Tulpa,

I have friends that complain that they cannot buy VHS VCRs!

I kid you not. I sold a nice Panny my cousin gave to me (just a couple of years old) to my Dentist for $25.

Old People (over 55) are pretty much at the mercy of their children to take care of their TV needs because they are overwhelmed with what has been going on.

BTW, even cable companies will set of a HDTV so it only receives SD if it doesn't have a HDMI cable.

Don't forget, I have friends who can't work their STB for digital cable so just forget the record timer on their VCR.

As far as working a DVR - you have to be kidding right? I guarantee there are people that have cable that have a DVR and don't even know they have it!

Nope, JSP is still not on board - he is still trying to use his VHS.

Um, I'm going to want accurate numbers, not anecdotal stories about your friends that can't work a VCR.

http://www.mediapost.com/publications/?fa=Articles.showArticleHomePage&art_aid=86737

According to that, 28 million homes have DVRs. That's a healthy number, considering 100 million households. And that rose 5% in nine months.

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/11250.cfm

50% projected by 2011? Well...


Sure, maybe MORE (right now) still use VHS, but that's not the argument. The argument is whether the public wants DVRs. I think the answer is "yes, yes they do."

And whether they want DVD/HDD-Recorders. Well, they were available, and they didn't sell, so...

I guarantee there are people that have cable that have a DVR and don't even know they have it!

Nope, JSP is still not on board - he is still trying to use his VHS.

My neighbor didn't realize their was a DVR built into his STB until I told him. Now his kids are recording off Disney and Nick like crazy, the SD channels:eek: Even though they have the HD package:confused: Oh well, I suppose it uses less of the HDD space. I still don't think he knows how to use it beyond tuning the channels:rolleyes:
Yes JSP is alive and well.:D
Oh and he was watching his STB through a composite cable even though their was also a component cable hooked up. I gave him a spare DVI cable so now they can at least watch it in straight digital. Composite indeed. Ya they have a Sharp HDTV.

I think it comes down to "If they don't know what a DVR is or how to use a VCR, would they even know how to work a DVDR/HDD unit?" It's not like those are any EASIER. ;)

old people (over 55) . . . Hey, WHO ARE YOU CALLING OLD!
My kid is still at my mercy.

My "smartest" neighbor just got a 42" plasma and his wife loves the DVR. He on the other hand, doesn't know how to work it.

When I told her about HDD DVD Recorders, she had no idea they made them.

I don't know the market for HDD DVDR from their inception to demise, however, BB had lots of models and Walmart had none. Then BB gave them up and Walmart picked them up.

My point is that they gave up on the "HDD DVDR" market before if ever got started.

As for "now" there is no market for obsolete HDD SD DVDR, the market they gave up on that I'm talking about is the "advanced" DVD that can record lesser times of HD.

Of course this flies in the face of BD, so why would you build a product that would compete with your big future investment?

Then, of course, just think of the paranoia of the possibility of recording HD on a 5 cent DVD. Maybe that will never be allowed to happen. Who knows, there may be a law out there already prohibiting the use of DVD w/HD content.
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Let's not forget that consumer electronic units like HDD DRDR units are cheaper than dirt to manufacture. Pioneer tunerless models are legal in the US, but they won't even allow them to be sold.

As far as adding an ATSC tuner, they have them designed. They could make an ATSC HDD DVDR out any design development. This would be a product that would be cheap to make using existing technology.

I can see why there is no real reason to make Canadian ATSC models since their adoption will be market based. So that leaves the US with mandated ATSC in our face.

The fact they are making such a "no brainer" means other forces are at play.

Here is another one: With the huge number of DVD's owned by people, why aren't DVD jukeboxes the player/recorder of choice? BB doesn't even carry these either. They used to carry a Sony, but they dropped that one.

The Market pretty much doesn't real trade magazines, but reacts to what they see in BB or CC or what friends have and what they see on TV.
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Just another thought on "markets:"

1) Anything that records only SD is doomed and has no market.

2) Anything that records HD cheaply will be worshiped.

3) The ultimate product would be the HDD HD DVDR

4) BD will never tap this market because it will never have heap media.

What monkeying? I set it up once, and never have to touch it again.

Of course I meant no criticism of you: its just you're a good reference of someone here who is comfortable using DVD/HDD recorders with cable and/or external ATSC boxes and IR blasters. You are not overwhelmed by the TVGOS setup requirements and have no problem tending things occasionally as they drift out of whack. I wanted to contrast you (and the rest of us here) with the larger consumer market as it is perceived by DVD/HDD recorder mfrs.

What they see is 270 million people who are terrified at the very *thought* of what we here think is an easy setup of the TVGOS feature and IR blaster. It really isn't that easy for the technically disinterested: programming the correct IR blaster code, selecting the most useful host channel, making sure the guide is populated, accounting for mishaps if you try to record while data is downloading, etc., are things that totally disgust the average timeshifter. I'm not talking about the long-discontinued faulty Pioneer TVGOS units, which were an even worse horror: I'm talking about the popular Panasonics and Toshibas with well-designed TVGOS. No matter how ingenious we think these recorders are, they do not appeal to rank-and-file American consumers. The setup process is a turnoff and incomprehensible to most of them. And lets not forget that OTA and cable host stations have a tendency to drop the pilot signal periodically, causing lost recordings and repeated setup procedures.

No friggin way is JSP gonna tolerate that for $450 when he can rent a cable box or TiVO with transparent integrated recorder that never needs setup, never needs an IR dongle, never interrupts a late-night recording, never screws up unless the cable itself goes out. Throw in the bonus feature that most of these cable DVRs can record 2 shows competing in the same time slot unattended. Why would you NOT want one of these if all you care about is timeshifting? Lets not even start on the DVD recorders without HDDs or TVGOS or IR blasters. I set separate timers on my cable boxes and my recorders because I have no choice: I want the damn DVDs. I force myself to remember and work out the logistics. Its a giant pain, which I don't see the casual user bothering with at all. That's why even the cheaper non-HDD recorders are tanking now: no integration with cable. They remain on store shelves for the hardy core of frugal consumers who are strictly OTA, but they really don't sell much better than the pricey HDD-equipped units did. (Speaking of price, the last heyday of VHS vcrs in 1997-98 had Panasonics selling for $79.95. An equivalent Panasonic ATSC dvd recorder now runs $170 and up, with zero added utility and far more annoying operation. Not attractive.)

HDTV recording is the non-issue of the century: no one cares about BD-R or HD-on-DVDR but us forum trolls. Millions of 50" flat panel owners are perfectly content with SD cable DVRs, they don't even bother exchanging to the upgraded HD versions. Harping on the notion that recorders don't sell because they aren't HD quality misses the point: ease of use and cable integration trumps image quality by a landslide. A recent industry survey found 22% of TV watching is now done on laptops via websites, double last years statistic. If people are content with YouTube, they aren't gonna clamor for BlueRay recorders.

Here is another one: With the huge number of DVD's owned by people, why aren't DVD jukeboxes the player/recorder of choice? BB doesn't even carry these either. They used to carry a Sony, but they dropped that one.


Because of JSP again. People certainly have sizeable DVD collections, but they're also perfectly happy with a cheapo one disc player that costs less than $100 (in many cases, less than $50.) The cheapest I've EVER seen a new jukebox type was $400, and that was several years after the one discs fell below that price.

I have heard of the QAM tuner issue with some Panasonic and other brand's tuners, but not nearly as often. It seems to be mostly problematic with the Funai-made ones (Philips, Magnavox, Toshiba).

I agree. I have the Panasonic EZ-17 and the EZ-28 and the QAM tuner in each of them is rock solid compared to the 3576 that I have.

I think if you are about to buy a $2000 TV, you are in the market for DVD jukebox. (I think they have been as cheap as $300. I know I almost bought and open box @BB for $195, but opted to wait for a later model. HaHa only to find BB drop them.

No set up on DVR? That can't be right. You have to know how to use the Programming Guide and that is what Old Folks have trouble with (like the other guy on this thread that knew someone that had DVR and didn't know it!). Then even if you set up recording, how do you navigate the DVR? Don't you have to set the quality level of the DVR? What about choosing audio playback mode? I've never had one so I don't know. With TIVO, you could set it to record anything that a favorite actor was in, ranging from a movie to a talk show. Setting that up might be daunting for others.

Regard the use of the word anecdotal. I have to laugh. If something happens to you. Like you actually get shot, or are in a plane crash, that is anecdotal. "Reality" is what you are told by your TV, radio, newspaper, or government.

Here is a great one. I have a friend who has had 2 family members die from Mad Cow contracted in Europe. These were 2 unrelated trips. Different countries. I had one person I know in England say that MC was a lot worse than we are being told. It is statistically safe enough "not" to tell anyone.

So what is real?

I know if you only react to what happens to you and not what scares you on TV, there is almost no need for government! Don't you just love it?

I think if you are about to buy a $2000 TV, you are in the market for DVD jukebox. (I think they have been as cheap as $300. I know I almost bought and open box @BB for $195, but opted to wait for a later model. HaHa only to find BB drop them.


Dude, go check out the HTIB forum here. You get people buying $5000 TVs and asking what they can do for audio for $250. And no, they won't up their budget. ;)

People buy what they perceive is the best deal for their needs. TVs are flashy, so they shell out. Jukebox players, video recording equipment, and audio are almost an afterthought.

There is no "setup" required on a cable DVR, unless the user wants to make a change to the default recording speed or other seldom-used options. The recorder is fully pre-integrated into the user's cable service, so there is no host channel, no IR blaster, no fuss, no muss. You pick the program to record using the same program grid the cable box uses: push the cable guide button on the remote, scroll to the day and show you want, click the big enter button, and you're done. Playback is the same: An easily-read grid displays the list of recorded programs, you scroll to the one you want to play and hit enter. Nothing could be easier.

Granted, there are a large number of very tech-phobic people who don't even use their cable guide button (like my 72 year old parents). These people are totally baffled by the concept of scrolling around a program grid, so even the benefits of EZ cable DVR is going to be lost on them. And forget DVDs: again, the scroll-around-a-menu operation is beyond them.The last thing they learned how to use is a VCR and damn if they aren't going to stop there. My parents are far from stupid, and there are millions like them who have been left behind by advancing technology. If you're from a generation that never had to use a computer and don't own one now, you will be flummoxed by an iPod or DVD player or cable DVR- heaven forbid an independent DVD recorder from Wal*Mart.

CitiBear, I feel your pain with Old People.

I have a best friend who is over 60 when he bought his first computer.

The concept of a directory and folders and files was beyond comprehension. Any time he was forced to store a file, it was like trying to explain to someone how to use a fork (well, at least from my perspective.) He still likes to simply leave the pictures on the SD card, then buy more SD cards!

Cut & Paste, and Drag & Drop were like pulling teeth. I think it took him about a year to get marginally functional with that.

Yes, and it is this friend who doesn't know how to use the program guide on his STB remote - he and his wife go to Channel 17 to watch the scrolling guide....

They had digital channels and didn't know that had them.
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There is no doubt DVR functionality is awesome. If they let you burn dvd's, I probably be a convert, but they won't let you - I guess you are supposed to copy something only to timeshift it and if you have a DVR, then I guess you don't have a right to copy.

For me, I'd pay maybe $1-2 a month for a DVR. Max.

Its the principle of the thing...

It is all about money and nothing else the same problem BlueRay is struggling with right now. Recently Yamaha $1200.00, Pioneer $2000.00 and Sony $2200.00 introduced new BlueRay players for the same cost as a riding lawn mower. Good luck I doubt we will see any of these players flying off the shelves.

A good standalone hard drive DVD recorder will cost $400+ depending on the size of the drive. Because cable & satellite give DVR's away to obtain the monthly fee there is no market for this product in the USA. If you really want a hard drive recorder you can order an international Pioneer or Panasonic from several distributors dealing in off-shore electronics.

I have to laugh at the price for even a HDD DVDR since DVDR drives are dirt cheap and... yeah, so are HDD's!

I was close to getting a Pio 550, but really, why would I want an obsolete SD video component?

Toshiba could crush BD by selling a HDD DVDR with ATSC and HD recording using MPEG4 or some other fancy Codec. Yeah, and throw in 5.1 too. If they can record on D-VHS, why not DVD? Advances in codecs make all of this possible and preferable!

The incremental cost for ATSC, a new circuit board and some software/firmware should be a fraction of the total cost to build.

That is the product I have a market for. Lightweight, effective, .... lethal...

I could just see Sony choking with warehouses full of BD bloated junk. Didn't they realize that a feature of the winning format of the HiDef Disc would be cost, cost, cost? Cost will Kill You Every Time. (You know, you could even appease Hollywood, and only allow 1080i/720p recording which would help keep files smaller and make this product even better.)

Old People (over 55) are pretty much at the mercy of their children to take care of their TV needs because they are overwhelmed with what has been going on.

Well, golly gosh and tarnation! I have less than a year left! I guess I better hop in the old flivver and get my grey haired butt down to Wally World. My (only) daughter is 300 miles away and WAY to busy to bring her dottering old Dad up to speed on this new contraption!

6volt=whippersnapper.

:D

Crabboy,

Yep, you got it!

BTW, I'm 55

(hehe)

Do you get my Luddite member ID?

If you (http://www.oldmansimpson.com/index.php?page=quotes) mean that you're full of 32 AA batteries (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/824477/6_volt_battery_hack_youll_be_amazed/), I don't believe you (http://www.snopes.com/photos/humor/batteryhack.asp).:D

Hint: its automotive

Aooga (http://www.ahooga-graphics.com/images/ahooga.wav)! You're not old, you're classic or vintage (http://classicautobulbs.com/).

OK, let's stop all this over 55 old age stuff...or I'll have to call the AARP police... :D

I think that the comments about there being only a niche market for DVD/HDD recorders are on target, but there are other factors at play. Until fairly recently, in the last ten years, US consumers were interested in the latest in recording and playback technology, whether it was audio cassette recorders with Dolby noise reduction or VHS recorders or even laserdiscs. Now, US consumers for the most part can't be bothered to record stuff where there is any skill involved. Netflix provides the movies, Apple sells mp3 files over the Internet and the cable STB DVR does the TV show recording. The US market has dumbed down, almost no one wants to handle the learning curve that comes with new electronics like the DVD/HDD recorder. In other parts of the world, the situation is completely different. (The FCC ordering that electronic products with TV tuners had to be ATSC compliant or they could not be sold in the United States put the final nail in the coffin for the sale of DVD/HDD recorders here, but that is another subject).

One reason for the demise of DVD/HDD recorders is the lack of leisure time in the United States for many people. Sure, college students spend time putting their favorite 5,000 songs on their iPods. Some people at this site spend tons of time transferring their VHS tapes to DVDR format. But free time is a shrinking commodity for most, with increased commuting times, working overtime hours or at two jobs to pay the bills and crummy vacation benefits. Learning to operate a HDD/DVD recorder can take a lot of time if you are new to the game.

With previous iterations of consumer technology, from color TVs to VHS recorders, you had the "toppling" effect. An item like a VHS recorder would slowly increase its market penetration, up to when it had 15-20% of the consumer population. Then, usually accompanied by cuts in the cost of ther electronics item, the percentage of households having the item would zoom up to 70% or more. That is what happened with DVD players from 1997 to 2001. That is what did not happen to laserdic players from 1980 to 1996. That is what is not happening to DVD/HDD recorders now.

With laserdisc players, the high purchase price of the LD player limited the market. Still, laserdiscs stayed on the market until a new format, DVDs, took over. The costs for DVD/HDD recorders should not have limited their sales that much. After all, while $330 (early 2007 price at Amazon) for a Pioneer 640 unit was more than the $100 price for a DVD player from Sony or Panasonic, the price difference was not that great, and DVD/HDD recorders seemed like a good replacement for VHS tape recorders. Now though, not many want to take the time and effort to learn how to use these recorders. Years back, there were jokes about people with VHS recorders who could not set the time, so the clock flashed 12:00 all the time. That same situation, being intimidated by a new electronic device so you only learn the minimum necessary to operate the device, is not limited to any age group.

There is nothing wrong with US consumers taking the easy way out. But without HDD/DVD recorders in the marketplace, US consumer have limited choices. These recorders were the best units out there for transferring home video to standard DVDRs. Units like the Panasonics made editing fairly easy. Old recorded VHS tapes usually wear out, sometimes after 20 years, sometimes sooner and with that, so any video you want to keep that is on these tapes will eventually be lost unless it is transferred first. But transferring VHS tapes to the DVDR format takes spare time, something many US consumers do not have these days. What leisure time people have is spent on more straightforward pursuits, such as watching TV and staring in amazement at the latest bill from the electric utility company.

gerrytwo,

Nice argument.

But what is so different between Laserdisc and HDD DVDR is that LD models were available throughout its life cycle. Of course, LD did win over CED which maybe had something to do with that.

On the other hand, it is my strong belief, that the HDD DVD was pulled from the market prematurely. Of course, the ATSC tuner thing is there, but all manufacturers have those tuners designed and built, and with the usually meaningless model updates that occur every year in consumer electronics, it should not have been prohibitive to release a model with the new tuner.

That fact suggests to me that other forces are at play. The two I come up with are BD support and EchoStar DVR litigation.

The slumping sales of the ONLY ATSC HDD DVDR (Philips) is not obvious because it is only carried by Wal*Mart. The fact the the stores that should carry it, BB, CC, etc. is so bizarre, its hard to fathom.

There are weird market forces. When Sony paid off Toshiba and killed HD-DVD, BD sales plummeted. Who could have forseen that? Perhaps the market responds to "politics" or some kind of "consumer confidence." Buying off HD-DVD may have been perceived as an indication that "the market" was in trouble. Perhaps that is a keen insight because, the two formats were no where near producing a winner. HD-DVD had more sales and units, but BD was on all those darn game consoles. Maybe both formats would survive which would be a real mess. There is a remote possibility that BD sales were actually linked to HD-DVD sales: People who had preferred HD-DVD were buying BD because of movie availabilities. So when HD-DVD was killed, those who were adopting it quit buying secondary BD units.

I hope that at some point, someone offers a HDD DVDR that can record HiDef+DD (like D-VHS) in some advanced codec (MPEG4?). I think if Toshiba did this, Sony would send ninja's to wipe out Toshiba.

You know, they made at least one very entertaining movie about the tobacco industry. I think there is even more material here for an even better movie. Tongue in cheek and ninjas over the top sound like a Winner!

Are you going to include all of that in your letter to Pioneer? :)

I'm actually interested in their response to whatever you write.

No, I'm going to try to get them on the phone. If I write a letter, they would never see it.

Of course, the biggest question is that since Pioneer is the "many headed Hydra" it may be hard to find the unit that actually makes these strategic decisions.

I'm pretty sure my opening line will be: "Mr. Yamamoto, why do I have to travel to Canada to buy a Pioneer DVD Recorder with a Hard Drive?"

(...)That fact suggests to me that other forces are at play. The two I come up with are BD support and EchoStar DVR litigation.

The "BD factor" is a dog that won't hunt. I've repeated industry findings here many times: consumers in general and Americans in particular don't give a rats ass about HDTV aside from football/soccer games. All the sound and fury of the HD-DVD vs BD rivalry was based on unrealistic loss-leader pricing (which vanished after the war) and on a very small segment of early adopters, who are as fickle as the weather. Plus, every mfr in the BD group knew full well they had no intention of selling "affordable" BD recorders within our lifetimes. The mfrs do not remotely perceive a $400 DVD/HDD recorder as a threat to sales of a $2000 BD/HDD recorder: two entirely different markets. Scratch that, there actually isn't a "market" for either in the US.

You have a point with the EchoStar/TiVO patent litigation, and for awhile everyone thought this was a major factor. Until Phillips re-entered the market a few months after everyone else left, selling a DVD/HDD recorder so cheaply that they can't be making more than $10 on each one. No way would Phillips bother with such a low-profit item if they seriously feared litigation. Now that almost three years have passed since the Panasonic/Pioneer/Toshiba/Sony pullout, its clear they floated the "litigation" argument as a distraction. Bottom line, there was no money to be made with this product here: Americans demanded a ridiculously low price point, and when they got it ended up returning the units in droves to the stores as "too complicated". Lowball pricing + massive product returns = red ink, and end of product distribution. Factor in the cable DVR, and its curtains. Thousands of people a day bought VCRs ten years ago, today only dozens a day buy DVD recorders. Its not hard to figure out mfr logic.

The slumping sales of the ONLY ATSC HDD DVDR (Philips) is not obvious because it is only carried by Wal*Mart. The fact the the stores that should carry it, BB, CC, etc. is so bizarre, its hard to fathom.

The Magnavox is a Wal*Mart exclusive, the Phillips is sold everywhere. BB and CC have regional management that stocks what they think will sell- it may not be on shelves in your area but it is in others. Plus, online sales are a big chunk of CE purchases nowadays.

I hope that at some point, someone offers a HDD DVDR that can record HiDef+DD (like D-VHS) in some advanced codec (MPEG4?). I think if Toshiba did this, Sony would send ninja's to wipe out Toshiba.

As I mentioned the other day, Panasonic is already making combination BD-R/HD-on DVD-R machines, but not for America because the units range from $1900-2600. You are hoping for a cheap non-BD version of this, which ain't gonna happen. Mfr cunning skips a generation each time: you get one product that they'll whore to the point of bankruptcy (DVD), after they screw themselves the next upgrade is priced for profitability and remains that way for a long time (BD or anything HDTV). And again, the trump card in the USA is cable/satellite integration: they could market your $300 (non-BD) HD-on-DVD-R unit tomorrow and it would still rot on store shelves because it would be a mess to use with cable.

The few thousand of us who haunt online forums and blogs don't begin to make a viable market for these things. Don't hold your breath. Me, I'm buying up every "broken" Pioneer DVD/HDD I can find and fixing it myself to add to my backup recorder stash.

No, I'm going to try to get them on the phone. If I write a letter, they would never see it.

Of course, the biggest question is that since Pioneer is the "many headed Hydra" it may be hard to find the unit that actually makes these strategic decisions.

I'm pretty sure my opening line will be: "Mr. Yamamoto, why do I have to travel to Canada to buy a Pioneer DVD Recorder with a Hard Drive?"

You have to provide us with a transcript of the call.

I'm pretty sure my opening line will be: "Mr. Yamamoto, why do I have to travel to Canada to buy a Pioneer DVD Recorder with a Hard Drive?"And I'm pretty sure the response of the administrative assistant you will never get past is . . . click . . . followed by dial tone.

And I'm pretty sure the response of the administrative assistant you will never get past is . . . click . . . followed by dial tone.
Then again, the AA might just say, "Mr Yamamoto isn't available right now, but I can switch you to our Customer Relations Manager, Mr Sokituyu."

Yeah, I wonder how many laps he'll make around the phone tree.

Then again, the AA might just say, "Mr Yamamoto isn't available right now, but I can switch you to our Customer Relations Manager, Mr Sokituyu."And "Mr Sokituyu" will have an Indian accent and start by asking what kind of PC he is having trouble with.

At least Pioneer's still making HDD models for some part of North America. You should really write Panny - at least first.

Okay, the U.S. market for HDD-DVD recorders may be too small to design and manufacture just for the U.S. market, BUT, since Pio & Panny are both making these machines for the world market (and they sell for about $500 and up at select U.S. retailers), how much could it possibly cost them to sell here in the U.S., models they are already making? All they have to do is add software to disable the internal analog tuner, and they would be perfectly legal in our digital tv world.

Panasonic has somehow subdivided the DVD recorder market into 7 "different" models, but they can't find space in the line for a HDD model?

The truth is, for whatever reason, these companies HATE video enthusiasts!
Pioneer believes people will spend $5000 for a plasma TV but not $500 for a good video recorder... someone must be telling them they're right! (Although they have since introduced a TV for $2500, that's still about double the going price).

--Gary
Ready to buy my 3rd international model: a DVR-650H

(...) how much could it possibly cost them to sell here in the U.S., models they are already making? (...)

It isn't the machines themselves, its the fact that they don't sell. It costs more than the tiny sliver of profit they would make to transport them here, warehouse them, provide stores with co-op advertising bribe money, and most importantly absorb the 60% of these units that are returned a week after purchase by frustrated (I'll refrain from saying "stupid" and "lazy") consumers. If it was simply a matter of fulfilling direct online orders from the Chinese factories to the consumer, I'm sure they would sell them here, but that business model is pretty impractical.

Panasonic has somehow subdivided the DVD recorder market into 7 "different" models, but they can't find space in the line for a HDD model?

See above. American consumers will pay $250 for the horrible completely stripped VHS/DVD models and Panasonic's $200 DVD-only recorders, but they steadfastly refuse to buy the $400 HDD models. And at this point, with the weak US dollar, a Panny EH55 would run closer to $500.

Pioneer believes people will spend $5000 for a plasma TV (...)

Actually, as you noted, Americans AREN'T willing to pay $5000 for a Pioneer plasma TV, that's why Pioneer was forced to abandon its gorgeous proprietary plasma design and is now selling pedestrian rebadged Panasonic plasmas at half the price. Which will likely backfire and force Pioneer out of the TV business in the USA just like they abandoned DVRs.

I suspect JSP is buying the big screen TV for the size, not to receive HD content. I suspect he even equates BIG SCREEN with HIGH-DEF, since big box advertising is vague about the difference. Even people who successfully attach an antenna and scan in some OTA channels will be surprised on 2/18/09 when some of those channels disappear. And we've already talked about the number of people running SD cable or satellite thru their BSTVs.

Most of the successful revolutionary changes in the A/V world have been due to improved convenience or lower cost for the average consumer, NOT improvements in sound/picture quality or more elaborate functionality.

People embraced the LP because it was easier to use than getting up every 4.5 minutes to change a fragile 78 rpm disc. Cassette caught on because it was smaller and easier to use in the car than 8-track (and later, in the Walkman). CD smoked LP because it was smaller, easier to use, and could be played at home, in the car, on a Discman, and (later) on a computer. Ditto DVD over pre-recorded VHS. Vastly better sound quality notwithstanding, SACD and DVD-Audio died on the vine (OK, technically it's still around) because it was no easier to use than a standard CD and was more expensive and required a new player. And I'm inclined to say Blu-Ray will suffer the same fate; prevailing over HD-DVD may only mean than Sony writes down its losses in a later tax year from Toshiba.

Nah - he just (JSP, that is, in his big new house in his fancy new subdivision) equates that "big TV" with "keeping up with the Joneses". He is ignorant, uninformed, or doesn't care to get into the catch-22 of the HD world (buy a big new HDTV, have to keep paying more and more for HD in order for it to look good enough to be able to stand watching it).

He's not even paying that much attention to what the box says, or what the salesman's telling him. He just goes in thinking he's getting what his neighbor's got, or at least close enough to it. God forbid that neighbor or his wife should come over for a beer or coffee and see that he's still watching TV on a 32" analog set. He'd feel embarrased as he!!. Doesn't matter if he's not even actually showing HD on the new set.

You've gotta know the way the average JSP thinks in this country nowadays (well, since the 80's, actually). Weak, non-individualistic egos, and shear, blind stupidity. It's this mentality and lifestyle which has caused this current credit crisis we're in.