View Full Version : Mits xx833 Review: Great Unit!


CIR-Engineering
09-11-08, 11:00 AM
http://test

Hey guys,

I've gotten to calibrate several of the xx833 Diamond sets so far. I must admit that overall I am really impressed with these. Once they are calibrated the colors can be made extremely accurate and the black level and gamma response is quite good. I didn't think these sets would perform all that great, but I was wrong ;)

Test Equipment Used:
PhotoResearch PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Sencore VP-403 Calibration Generator
ColorFacts 7.0 Pro Software Suit

Evaluation Material Viewed:
Samsung BluRay
-Casino Royal
-5th Element

My first impression of the xx833 when I walked in the door was a typical one; way too bright, inaccurate colors, far too much blue in the greyscale, and a poor gamma response. I figured I could probably fix the greyscale, come up with an acceptable gamma curve, and make the color decoder look believable. However, I underestimated the quality of this chassis and was far more impressed with every aspect once I got to work. The colors came out dead on, the gamma looks near perfect, and the greyscale is excellent.

The first thing I did was take pre-calibration readings of greyscale, gamma, black level, white level, and chromacity (color gamut). After that, I moved into the service menu and started to experiment... and that's when my expectations began to increase.

Here is the precalibration gamma response. As you can observe, the precal gamma does not follow the correct curve nor does it meet the industry standard of falling between 2.2 - 2.5. The out of box gamma is far too low. This results in a washed out image that lacks depth, lacks the three dimensional quality of HD, and lacks realism.

http://www.cir-engineering.com/bin/mitsxx833/precalgamma.jpg

As always with digital projection calibrations I started by roughly dialing in black and white level and then to establish a baseline gamma. On many past Mits DLP's the gamma was really tough to adjust because of the poor implementation of their mechanical iris. With this chassis, the iris must remain on, but it is a much better design than what Mits had on earlier models. While I could not hit the target minimum average gamma of 2.2, I was still able to improve the situation dramatically by increasing the average from 1.83 to an impressive 2.13. Furthermore, the graph reveals that the gamma response actually follows the 2.2 industry standard through the entire range except for around 90 IRE. This little blip is what causes the average to be below the 2.2 goal and is actually less significant than if the gamma response were in error across the board. In short, the gamma is actually better than the average would suggest.

http://www.cir-engineering.com/bin/mitsxx833/postcalgamma.jpg

Next I proceeded to dial in saturation and chromacity. Out of the box, the 833 displays the typical blown out gamut that can be observed on most digital displays, as well as several other color errors. As can be seen from the precal gamut plot, green is excessively green, yellow is excessively yellow, and red is excessively red. You may observe this in real world images as red, yellow and green objects glow or seem almost florescent. For example, green trees or grass may seem to be glowing rather than simply being green. Same with red, but people's faces probably look far too red as well. Phase (tint) for magenta and cyan was way way off resulting in inaccuracies for these color components. This takes away from accurate reproduction of all color images. Most manufacturers of digital displays do not adhere to the Rec 709 gamut and blatantly abuse it. However, Mitsubishi is typically the worst offender of this and the xx833 is no exception. The colors out of box were terrible! After calibration however, I was very happy to see that I was able to get the colors nearly perfect :) Magenta and cyan tint came right in line, and the chromacity of red, yellow and green was reduced to near perfection. All this was accomplished with only a small sacrifice to the position of blue.

http://www.cir-engineering.com/bin/mitsxx833/cieprecal.jpg http://www.cir-engineering.com/bin/mitsxx833/ciepostcal.jpg

Furthermore, color gamut is only one aspect that needs attention with respect to color. The luminance (brightness) of the colors also needs to be properly adjusted and not all displays have this ability. Below is a table of the luminace of each color with respect to an ideal luminance. Readings for this table were taken at 75%. The left column is the calculated ideal luminance with respect to the actual white luminance measured. The second column is the measured luminance for each color as seen by my PR-650.

http://www.cir-engineering.com/bin/mitsxx833/colorluma.jpg

It has been stated that the Mits xx833 models are not capable of accurately displaying proper luminance for all colors. As can be observed this is not correct. The data gathered shows that these sets do have excellent color luma response when compared to the ideal luma level.

After color, I moved to greyscale the results of which can be seen below.

http://www.cir-engineering.com/bin/mitsxx833/greytrack.jpg

As is common these days, the Mits 833 was extremely cool (blue) out of the box with an average color temperature of over 13,500 K. At some points on the output the grey was actually reading over 17,000K. This level of inaccuracy is just terrible and will result in a blue tone to everything and colors will be very washed out and inaccurate looking. Also, different color temperatures with respect to luminace will result in black and white images having varying degrees of "color" depending on the output. At lower light levels black and white will look more blue than at higher light levels. The chart only goes to 12,000K so what you are seeing in the precal chart is that the greyscale is literally "off the chart."

The good news is that after calibration, the greyscale came right into line with an average temp of right around 6,500 K, just where it should be.

http://www.cir-engineering.com/bin/mitsxx833/cordinates.jpg

And above are the results for delta "E" before and after calibration. DE is essentially a more precise way to measure error (RMS error), and in this case error to grey tracking.

As can be observed, before calibration the DE was running around 65 across the entire luminance range. DE of 10 or less is considered ideal for a digital display so obviously 65 is way too high. But after calibration the DE came out really well averaging less than 3 at all luminance levels. You may observe that at 10 IRE and 20 IRE IRE the DE was measured at 35 and 15 respectively, but the windows looked grey to me and there was a little ambient light in the room. At 10 and 20 IRE it can be difficult to get a good reading with any ambient light because those luma levels are pretty darn dim. Therefore, the DE readings for 10 and 20 IRE should be taken with a grain of salt because they probably aren't accurate anyway.

And finally for greyscale here are the plots for color tracking. As can be seen, out of box there was so much blue that it was off the chart. There was also not enough red in the grey. After calibration all three colors combined brilliantly to make D65 grey.

http://www.cir-engineering.com/bin/mitsxx833/colortrack.jpg

I went back and touched up grayscale, black level, white level, gamma, and color and found that there was a lot of interactions between settings. This required several more calibration iterations and was time consuming... but in the end it was worth it.

Finally we got to view some material. BluRay and HD cable looked phenomenal. Colors were realistic and very accurate. Black level was excellent, about as good as I've seen on any digital display. I did not watch any 480i as the cable box on hand could only output one resolution and was set to 1080i.

I have watched 5th Element on every display I've calibrated for the past seven plus years and I will say it looked great on this Mits. Parts of this movie are like test patterns for me because I have seen them on so many units. This digital really looks fantastic. Casino Royal is a new addition to my reference material and I have seen it on a hundred or so units. And again, the Mits kicked!

So all in all I think Mits is moving in the right direction. These DLP units with color management are great and I'd be pleased to own one myself.

One final note, all displays require unique service and user menu settings for accurate imagery. It is a well established fact that simply coping settings from one unit to another will not improve accuracy. Therefore, any emails or inquiries asking for service menu settings will be deleted and not read.

Happy viewing :)

craigr

videobruce
09-11-08, 11:36 AM
All those new service menu entries that appeared last year that were blank, are they active now?
Or does one need another 'code' to make them active so they can be adjusted?

CIR-Engineering
09-12-08, 09:52 AM
All those new service menu entries that appeared last year that were blank, are they active now?
Or does one need another 'code' to make them active so they can be adjusted?

Some of them are now active, but others still seem to do nothing. I use a combined approach of both the service menu and user menu for calibration. When I get done calibrating I print out a full calibration report including settings for PerfectColor and PerfectTint. This way my customers can re-enter their settings if they are ever lost or if they want to add a new device to another input.

I hope Mits starts putting more accessible control in the service menus, but they have been on this system since the v26 chassis so I am not holding my breath.

craigr

videobruce
09-12-08, 10:24 AM
Which ones are now active.

Darin
09-12-08, 10:52 AM
I use a combined approach of both the service menu and user menu for calibration. When I get done calibrating I print out a full calibration report including settings for PerfectColor and PerfectTint.

Hi, in another thread you said: I have gotten similar results for all the Mits sets with color management

What actually constitutes a Mits set as having "color management"? Do you HAVE to get the diamond series, or are there settings in the service menu that make up for the lack of PerfectTint user controls on the 735/736? They have PerfectColor user controls, but not PerfectTint.

videobruce
09-12-08, 10:59 AM
That user menu item "Perfect Color/Tint" is almost useless. Many reviews state the same thing.

Darin
09-12-08, 11:03 AM
That user menu item "Perfect Color/Tint" is almost useless. Many reviews state the same thing.

So a 735/736 can be calibrated just as well as the Diamond versions?

allargon
09-12-08, 11:25 AM
Very very nice... Football is painful to watch out of the box on Mits and Sammys as the jersey and grass colors are all over the place.

Are you doing a Texas tour anytime soon?

CIR-Engineering
09-12-08, 12:33 PM
Which ones are now active.
I honestly don't keep track. I'll try to make a mental note the next time I work on one and post back.

craigr

CIR-Engineering
09-12-08, 12:36 PM
Hi, in another thread you said:

What actually constitutes a Mits set as having "color management"? Do you HAVE to get the diamond series, or are there settings in the service menu that make up for the lack of PerfectTint user controls on the 735/736? They have PerfectColor user controls, but not PerfectTint.
PerfectColor allows one to adjusts capa Y for the colors (luma level), but not to move them on the gamut (much). However there are some other service menu controls that will allow one to improve the gamut. The Diamond line (or any with PerfectTint) will provide more control and thus a more accurate color gamut.

So to get results like what I posted above, your MIts needs both PerfectColor and PerfectTint. But I can improve sets that don't have PerfectTint.

craigr

CIR-Engineering
09-12-08, 12:39 PM
That user menu item "Perfect Color/Tint" is almost useless. Many reviews state the same thing.

One of my techniques as a calibration engineer is to do my own work and develop my own technique that does not rely on work done by others before me. Frankly, I see a lot of things repeated in reviews and do not trust the findings unless I have verified them myself. PC and PT do do something, and can be used as a dimension to improve color accuracy.

After changing some things in the service menu it becomes very necessary to totally alter PC and PT to get things lines up. But once they are aligned it all looks good and comes together.

craigr

CIR-Engineering
09-12-08, 12:40 PM
So a 735/736 can be calibrated just as well as the Diamond versions?

See post 10 in this thread. If you have PC and PT it will come out better, butif you only have PC things can still be improved upon.

craigr

CIR-Engineering
09-12-08, 12:43 PM
Very very nice... Football is painful to watch out of the box on Mits and Sammys as the jersey and grass colors are all over the place.

Are you doing a Texas tour anytime soon?
I am tentatively planning for January. If you like you may pre-register for the tour. Just shoot me an email craigr@cir-engineering.com

Right now I am putting together a western tour that will include California, Arizona, Denver, and many stops between Chicago and the west... Check the map below for coverage.

http://www.cir-engineering.com/bin/08west.jpg

If you'd like me to do your Mits while I'm out please send a single email (craigr@cir-engineering.com) with your full name, full address, phone number(s), and TV make / model. I can then register you for the tour so that you receive a "confirmation" email next week. Once you get the confirmation just follow the instructions it contains to book a calibration date.

Registration will be open until at least mid September, but after that it will become very difficult to add more customers... so let me know ASAP if you are interested.

craigr

CIR-Engineering
09-12-08, 12:46 PM
One more thing, I have some data here for the xx734 sets as well. Also a great unit. The 734 has better color accuracy but I haven't been able to nail the gamma down as well yet. I'll start another thread for that unit when I have some time... maybe later today or Monday.

craigr

Mike A
09-12-08, 01:03 PM
Hi craig,

I have a 73735 and while I'm happy with the black level detail I'm not that happy with the the color of absolute black. I want it to be a little bit darker and closer to my old RP CRTV.

I noticed on your website you do neutral density filter installs. Can you send me a PM with a quote for neutral density + calibration? Also I'm assuming focus adjustments come with the calibration? It looks like the top left corner is very slighly out of focus compared to the rest of the screen.

I'm in Southern Cal ( Thousand Oaks/Ventura County ). Look forward to hearing from you. Thanks!

joe221
09-12-08, 01:19 PM
Hi Craig,

You can kinda call it the Route 66/Route 80 Tour! ;)

CIR-Engineering
09-12-08, 01:37 PM
Mits 734 teaser thread here (LINK). (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14649385#post14649385)

craigr

CIR-Engineering
09-12-08, 01:38 PM
Hi craig,

I have a 73735 and while I'm happy with the black level detail I'm not that happy with the the color of absolute black. I want it to be a little bit darker and closer to my old RP CRTV.

I noticed on your website you do neutral density filter installs. Can you send me a PM with a quote for neutral density + calibration? Also I'm assuming focus adjustments come with the calibration? It looks like the top left corner is very slighly out of focus compared to the rest of the screen.

I'm in Southern Cal ( Thousand Oaks/Ventura County ). Look forward to hearing from you. Thanks!

I'll send you a PM now. However, there really aren't any focus adjustments that can be done on this set for quadrants of the screen. ie I don't focus these units.

craigr

CIR-Engineering
09-12-08, 01:46 PM
Hi Craig,

You can kinda call it the Route 66/Route 80 Tour! ;)

Yup :cool: I done it before and I'll do it again...

craigr

CIR-Engineering
09-12-08, 01:46 PM
I'm headed out of town soon and won't be back to this thread until Monday...

FYI ;)

craigr

ck007
09-15-08, 12:17 AM
One more thing, I have some data here for the xx734 sets as well. Also a great unit. The 734 has better color accuracy but I haven't been able to nail the gamma down as well yet. I'll start another thread for that unit when I have some time... maybe later today or Monday.

craigr

How would you, or can you campare the 833 with the previous year's 831 diamond series?

Thanks,

CK

CIR-Engineering
09-15-08, 12:43 PM
How would you, or can you campare the 833 with the previous year's 831 diamond series?

Thanks,

CK
Both are very similar once calibrated as I recall. I haven't done an 831 in a few months though so my memory is getting a little fuzzy. I think the end results are really close, but the 831 maybe doesn't have quite as black a black.

craigr

ck007
09-16-08, 02:08 AM
Both are very similar once calibrated as I recall. I haven't done an 831 in a few months though so my memory is getting a little fuzzy. I think the end results are really close, but the 831 maybe doesn't have quite as black a black.

craigr

Thanks for the reply. A friend of mine has the 734 and the difference in blacks is neglible at best. Would you recommend using a neutral densisty filter, sight unseen for the 831?

Thanks again

CIR-Engineering
09-16-08, 09:20 AM
Thanks for the reply. A friend of mine has the 734 and the difference in blacks is neglible at best. Would you recommend using a neutral densisty filter, sight unseen for the 831?

Thanks again
Sight unseen I would recommend against a ND filter. Generally once the black and white are set, and the gamma is adjusted, the units do not need ND filters. If however the set puts out enough light as measured by my PR-650, an ND filter can be added.

I don't like mechanical iris's in general. But the system Mits uses on these DLP's works pretty well and it definitely makes the blacks really black without an additional ND filter.

craigr

ck007
09-17-08, 10:07 AM
Sight unseen I would recommend against a ND filter. Generally once the black and white are set, and the gamma is adjusted, the units do not need ND filters. If however the set puts out enough light as measured by my PR-650, an ND filter can be added.

I don't like mechanical iris's in general. But the system Mits uses on these DLP's works pretty well and it definitely makes the blacks really black without an additional ND filter.

craigr

Thanks for the input. Do you think lining the cabinet of these sets with Duvetyne is necessary or helpful with regard to internal reflections?

CIR-Engineering
09-18-08, 09:25 AM
Thanks for the input. Do you think lining the cabinet of these sets with Duvetyne is necessary or helpful with regard to internal reflections?
I have had several customers who have lined their Mits DLP's, and I must say that I I have been really surprised how much it helps black levels on images with high contrast. For example, at the beginning of 5th Element when Earth comes into view and the space ship flies by (just after the opening credits), the Earth is bright, but the blacks in space look pretty darn dark.

I think it's worth doing and I may even start offering black lining again as an extra service. We used to do it with CRT, but the benefit wasn't as great. I think the black / grey plastic inside these DLP's is more reflective than the pained black wood found with most rear projection CRT. Ergo, Duvetyne (or other better fabric) will be more beneficial.

craigr

Darin
09-18-08, 09:35 AM
I can't help but wonder if simply spray-painting the interior with flat black paint would provide similar improvements without as much hassle. I did the duvetyne treatment on my CRT, and may still use fabric in some areas. But I'm thinking about spray paint on the more difficult areas, especially those where I fear the adhesive may eventually fail and the fabric droop.

CIR-Engineering
09-18-08, 09:36 AM
I've refined my technique a little bit on these and did a 73833 yesterday with better results than I have ever had. I improved the color and gamma even better. Here are two "after calibration" charts for CIE and gamma.

http://www.cir-engineering.com/bin/mitsxx833/ciepostcalnew.jpg

http://www.cir-engineering.com/bin/mitsxx833/gammanew.jpg

craigr

ck007
09-18-08, 11:20 AM
I have had several customers who have lined their Mits DLP's, and I must say that I I have been really surprised how much it helps black levels on images with high contrast. For example, at the beginning of 5th Element when Earth comes into view and the space ship flies by (just after the opening credits), the Earth is bright, but the blacks in space look pretty darn dark.

I think it's worth doing and I may even start offering black lining again as an extra service. We used to do it with CRT, but the benefit wasn't as great. I think the black / grey plastic inside these DLP's is more reflective than the pained black wood found with most rear projection CRT. Ergo, Duvetyne (or other better fabric) will be more beneficial.

craigr

Thanks again.

seggers
09-18-08, 12:29 PM
Have you had a chance to play with the 835 yet, and if so how did it compare?

I'm looking at getting the 835 over the 833.

Edit, and do you ever get to the WNY area?

Seggers

baddgsx
09-19-08, 06:35 AM
Im actually looking into getting this TV now. What did you get for a reading on black level? And also were you able to measure a ansi contrast level. Did this Mitsu do well with shadow detail? And lastly , can you see screen gain from the screen material used?

Thanx Chris

bferr1
09-20-08, 09:43 PM
Hi Craig,

There is something that nags me about my 65833, and that is a kind of-- I don't know how to describe it-- blooming black level or washed-out blacks when bright objects appear in the lower portions of the screen. For example, during the opening text crawl in any Star Wars movie, the black starfield goes from black to a shade of grey. When the text crawl recedes towards the upper half of the screen, you can see the black in the starfield return to normal. I notice it in other movies, as well, and it drives me nuts. What am I seeing here? Is this a problem with the dynamic iris or is it an internal reflection issue? And is it fixable through Duvetyne lining?

Thanks,
Bryan

McIntosh
09-22-08, 11:16 AM
This is a rather simple question: does a TV need to be recalibrated after lamp replacement?

ksbarnz
09-22-08, 11:27 AM
Hi Craig,

There is something that nags me about my 65833, and that is a kind of-- I don't know how to describe it-- blooming black level or washed-out blacks when bright objects appear in the lower portions of the screen. For example, during the opening text crawl in any Star Wars movie, the black starfield goes from black to a shade of grey. When the text crawl recedes towards the upper half of the screen, you can see the black in the starfield return to normal. I notice it in other movies, as well, and it drives me nuts. What am I seeing here? Is this a problem with the dynamic iris or is it an internal reflection issue? And is it fixable through Duvetyne lining?

Thanks,
Bryan

I have the same problem with my 736. I especially notice it on letterboxed movies at the upper part of the screen. Bright colors seem to bleed over into the black upper bar. I actually lined the inside with black velvet, not duvetyne, this weekend to see if that fixed the problem. Unfortunately it did nothing to fix it. Even though I do not have an 833 I thought I would post this here to save you the time and trouble of lining the inside to fix it.

bferr1
09-22-08, 02:47 PM
Thanks for the feedback, ksbarnz. I had a feeling it has more to do with dynamic iris, or something like that, rather than internal reflections. It doesn't happen all the time, but it does look like sh*t when it does. Looks like I can throw out the Duvetyne idea. :(

bearcat2002
09-22-08, 05:37 PM
This is a excellent question...I would like to know myself.



This is a rather simple question: does a TV need to be recalibrated after lamp replacement?