A question to fellow broadcast techs... what are your thoughts on the current state of broadcasting reference monitoring solutions versus "prosumer" level products. Specifically I am referring to Sony BVM class LCD panels (like the 42" Sony BVM-L420 (http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/ShowProduct.action?product=BVM-L420&site=biz_en_TR&pageType=Overview&imageType=Main&category=BVM)) versus the highly regarded Pioneer Kuro Signature series plasmas?

Given Sony markets BVMs as THE professional video reference screens (certainly the CRTs were) for mastering and evaluation, I'm curious as to the general consensus as to where they stand given the current state of these latest generation of plasmas.

C.

i would get a pioneer before i would get those lcd sony even if its reference it suffers alot from its lcd technology.

From what I have read the Sony BVM-L420 costs somewhere around
40k. Thats an incredible amount of $$. I must assume that within some
parameters it could be best in field. Someone who has seen one of these
should post at least something up. J

The things speaks for itself. The Kuro or any plasma brand for matter is still not considered a "reference" display.

yeah thats true but a elite is less then 5k that is better in every area except color accuracy to what a 40k thousand dollar lcd? with lcd flaws? please

yeah thats true but a elite is less then 5k that is better in every area except color accuracy to what a 40k thousand dollar lcd? with lcd flaws? pleaseI would be interested in a head-to-head shoot-out between the current Sony BVM series and Pioneer Elite Kuro Signature plasma.

Has consumer display technology finally caught - passed - professional broadcast display technology?

C.

yeah thats true but a elite is less then 5k that is better in every area except color accuracy to what a 40k thousand dollar lcd? with lcd flaws? please

I have seen several "Professional" display monitors starting at around $10K and up. "LCD flaws" are not there.

You are making the mistake of someone who has not seen what one of these panels can do. Yes they do have a much better CR, color balance, controls, etc.... It is suprising what a company can do with a panel when price is no object. Which is why you do not see this kind of panel in the consumer market.

The ones that I seen do not even have tunners in them. No need for them. The are expected to be driven from a variety of sources, but not hooked up and used for a standard TV on someones wall.

I have seen several "Professional" display monitors starting at around $10K and up. "LCD flaws" are not there.


I'm assuming most pro LCD models would be IPS panels, they really do get rid of a lot of LCDs flaws. The viewing angles are close to a Plasma and the picture stays uniform. The best computer monitors made by NEC and a few other companies use IPS panels, but they have limited contrast. Like you said with that high a price there are a lot of things they could do.

I'm assuming most pro LCD models would be IPS panels, they really do get rid of a lot of LCDs flaws. The viewing angles are close to a Plasma and the picture stays uniform. The best computer monitors made by NEC and a few other companies use IPS panels, but they have limited contrast. Like you said with that high a price there are a lot of things they could do.

Don't know what IPS means. I was in Japan last year for nearly a month at a tech company there. We had several meetings where everything was displayed on a Sharp Professional 65" monitor. They had several in the building and they were very expensive. We did fool around with them a little to see how they would handle digital pictures and some 480 DVD stuff. Great panels, makes mine at home look like complete crap.

This company was near Sharp headquarters and sold equipment to them, so that is what they had. I can't imagine that a Sony Pro panel would be anything less.

IPS is a kind of panel technology, certain LCD panel technologies have different properties that affect the way they perform. This actually explains it really well http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1039222
While they are talking about computer monitors the same applies for TVs. I've always thought if they should perfect an LCD panel tech it should be IPS, but I've been told it's too costly to do on larger consumer TVs. So I'd assume they could do it like you said. I think Sharp has their own proprietary panel tech, don't know much about it. I'd expect Sony to use IPS though.

It is my understanding that Sharp has panels that really do have 1 million to 1 CR measured by the ANSI standard, but that yes it is to expensive to build for the consumer market. Remember that it was Sharp who brought the LCD into the mainstream market for TV, I am sure that they have a few tricks up their sleeve.

Yes, I remember wanting a sharp back when the aquos were going strong, instead I went with a HD CRT for a bit longer. You never know what they could do now that technology is advancing.

civuck these reference tv would win because color accuracy in that area but lcd still has lcd problems no matter what either the person in in denial or is misleaded.

I would be interested in a head-to-head shoot-out between the current Sony BVM series and Pioneer Elite Kuro Signature plasma.

Has consumer display technology finally caught - passed - professional broadcast display technology?

C.

Tng read my above comment either you are misleaded or in denial, lcd have flaws, also this "ips" is not made on cosumer lcd which renders it useless

so i still stand by my point the kuro would win as normal lcd have alot of lcd flaws. noting to argue there

I have seen several "Professional" display monitors starting at around $10K and up. "LCD flaws" are not there.

You are making the mistake of someone who has not seen what one of these panels can do. Yes they do have a much better CR, color balance, controls, etc.... It is suprising what a company can do with a panel when price is no object. Which is why you do not see this kind of panel in the consumer market.

The ones that I seen do not even have tunners in them. No need for them. The are expected to be driven from a variety of sources, but not hooked up and used for a standard TV on someones wall.

civuck these reference tv would win because color accuracy in that area but lcd still has lcd problems no matter what either the person in in denial or is misleaded.


Tng read my above comment either you are misleaded or in denial, lcd have flaws, also this "ips" is not made on cosumer lcd which renders it useless

so i still stand by my point the kuro would win as normal lcd have alot of lcd flaws. noting to argue there

You are killing me. Please note that he was not talking about a consumer grade LCD, therfore your comments are not even needed. Anybody can compare a LCD to a new model Kuro, what he was posing was a Sony Professional LCD to the Kuro. A valid question from the OP.

tng read his question carefully ; he is comparing it to the kuro plasma tv, ok so lets already establish the differences in technology plasma wins, now he should ask specificly is it in color accuracy? or better PQ?


A question to fellow broadcast techs... what are your thoughts on the current state of broadcasting reference monitoring solutions versus "prosumer" level products. Specifically I am referring to Sony BVM class LCD panels (like the 42" Sony BVM-L420 (http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/ShowProduct.action?product=BVM-L420&site=biz_en_TR&pageType=Overview&imageType=Main&category=BVM)) versus the highly regarded Pioneer Kuro Signature series plasmas?
Given Sony markets BVMs as THE professional video reference screens (certainly the CRTs were) for mastering and evaluation, I'm curious as to the general consensus as to where they stand given the current state of these latest generation of plasmas.

C.

i would get a pioneer before i would get those lcd sony even if its reference it suffers alot from its lcd technology.


Well guess you know better than the professionals and display technology experts. They really need to listen to you.

tng read his question carefully ; he is comparing it to the kuro plasma tv, ok so lets already establish the differences in technology plasma wins, now he should ask specificly is it in color accuracy? or better PQ?
I have seen a $20K Sharp Professional monitor. The type that you can only get through a dealer network affiliate or contact. They do not come cheap and there is a long lead time as I understand it.

After viewing one and checking out some material on one I will say that it beat every FPD that I have seen at that size. I can't see that the Sony would be any different. Not just LCD, plasma as well. Do you really think that just because it is not a plasma that it is "inferior"?

If you do then you don't really have the brains to be on this forum.

Oh and Auditor, you said it all.

Tng you are not getting the point, that 20k+ or 40k+ tv is not your normal sub kuro lcd cost (6k - minus)

this is a super high end cost, it better damn work for this price, lcd isnt good or on par on the sub Cosumer level.

Also the op is comparing the kuro to this model, at cost is better and at PQ in most areas is better except of course color accuracy because you are comparing a 40k product to a sub 6k - minus product.

once again if all lcd were as good as this high end one then that would solve issues,

I COULD CARE LESS what brand or TECHNOLOGY the tv is as long it does its job right and lcd for the normal customer is behind.

I have seen a $20K Sharp Professional monitor. The type that you can only get through a dealer network affiliate or contact. They do not come cheap and there is a long lead time as I understand it.

After viewing one and checking out some material on one I will say that it beat every FPD that I have seen at that size. I can't see that the Sony would be any different. Not just LCD, plasma as well. Do you really think that just because it is not a plasma that it is "inferior"?

If you do then you don't really have the brains to be on this forum.

Oh and Auditor, you said it all.

way to go auditor read my last post, the op is comparing this reference lcd to the kuro (which you hate so much why envy?)

he asked where it stands, standpoint my view PQ wise the kuro wins, accuracy the reference wins, overall PQ once again kuro

Well guess you know better than the professionals and display technology experts. They really need to listen to you.

Huh?

do you feel alright? right here op is asking how is the pioneer to the sony lcd, to me PQ wise in most areas is better. no denial the color accuracy is better on the high end with big price tag lcd.

also if cosumer price lcd have alot of flaws, as to this high end has or not is a diffrent story.

It is my understanding that Sharp has panels that really do have 1 million to 1 CR measured by the ANSI standard...

Those are in fact real. Unfortunately, they're made by (essentially) slapping two LCD panels together. You get great contrast, but you need a small nuclear reactor to power the backlight.

The BVM LCDs have been drawing generally neutral-to-negative response from their target audience. Each generation is getting better, but they still have their flaws. Probably still 18 months away from something that will make people forget their CRTs.

I'm sorry Gus, but you're being completely bias. You can not write off a set because it is of a technology that you are not in correspondence with. I think you are in fact the one that is missing the point. Yes, LCD's have flaws, as does every other technology. The point is, LCD is still a relatively new tech, that in comparison to other technologies, is still rather expensive to manufacture. That is why ever year, they make such wide strides for the better, as cost goes down, we will reap the rewards, as they become better and better.

Now, with all tha being said, what happens when cost and consumer conceptionality is completely disregarded, with nothing but maximizing a technologies potential, don't you think that what is available on the consumer level would be inferior?

Pioneer could easily of had a much better display in the processing aspect of PDP tech. The technology is there, and readily available. Yet they did not. Why? Because it is not cost effective for them, as it is a consumer display.

Another example. CRT reference monitor til this day run between 25-40k. Why is it that CRT's were never perfected on the consumer level?

The same way you feel that there would be no point in paying 49k for a TV, because the increase in PQ would be marginal, is basically the same arguement people make against the Kuro, and other displays. Yet, every single post I have ever seen you make, always tells people that if they can swing getting a Kuro, then there is no point in considering anything else. Mind you, this is even when the OP is asking for options in the $1800-$2200 range.

I own two Kuros myself, a Pro950, and Pro151. I too prefer Plasma atm, and I do feel that the Kuro is the best that FP Tech has to offer on the consumer level, but it is MY preference. That doesn't mean that I am completely closed off to other technologies, as I am always looking for the best.

EDIT: You also shouldn't be so hasty to judge a panel that you have never seen. That is like someone who says that a Kuro is not worth the price because of chances of IR, being sensitive to phosphor trails, or a relatively dim panel, without ever even seeing one, or in their home?

I know this may seem harsh, and like a personal attack. It's just that your posts are so one dimensional. Please do not take that way. Just that sometimes we don't really realize how our posts come off, myself included.

Tng you are not getting the point, that 20k+ or 40k+ tv is not your normal sub kuro lcd cost (6k - minus)

this is a super high end cost, it better damn work for this price, lcd isnt good or on par on the sub Cosumer level.

Also the op is comparing the kuro to this model, at cost is better and at PQ in most areas is better except of course color accuracy because you are comparing a 40k product to a sub 6k - minus product.

once again if all lcd were as good as this high end one then that would solve issues,

I COULD CARE LESS what brand or TECHNOLOGY the tv is as long it does its job right and lcd for the normal customer is behind.



way to go auditor read my last post, the op is comparing this reference lcd to the kuro (which you hate so much why envy?)

he asked where it stands, standpoint my view PQ wise the kuro wins, accuracy the reference wins, overall PQ once again kuro

Gus, it was a simple comaparison between two panels by the OP and nothing else. If you haven't seen the Sony then you can not say for fact which is better. That's the bottom line.

i always recommend a kuro that is true but i dont say " you cant get a kuro dont get anything else" or its "kuro or nothing" or "anything else is a waste" i never say that, and my rant about this is that the OP is asking a comparision ~ lets disgard type of technology on the side the kuro would seem to win except in color accuracy, would it not?

its true i havnt see this panel but i find it hard to even consider or justify if price was question of these 2 panels ....

all in all we me and tng pushed this too far, i was just saying kuro is better overall PQ especially if you consider the cost but alone in PQ overall

i always recommend a kuro that is true but i dont say " you cant get a kuro dont get anything else" or its "kuro or nothing" or "anything else is a waste" i never say that, and my rant about this is that the OP is asking a comparision ~ lets disgard type of technology on the side the kuro would seem to win except in color accuracy, would it not?

its true i havnt see this panel but i find it hard to even consider or justify if price was question of these 2 panels ....

all in all we me and tng pushed this too far, i was just saying kuro is better overall PQ especially if you consider the cost but alone in PQ overall

You can't make any kind of judgement without knowing what the other panel is capable of.

Great discussion here folks.

For the record, we've elected to go with a 60" Pioneer Kuro Elite Signature 141 plasma and intend to have it ISF calibrated to whatever its full potential may be. It will be located in our boardroom for screening and connected to an HDCAM deck in our CER as well as our Avid Adrenaline online edit suite, Dish Network satellite receiver, ExpressVu satellite receiver, Rogers cable box, Playstation3 and a PC.

I saw the 23" Sony BVM LCD at NAB and admit it looked great for LCD technology. But ultimately, for our purposes at least, we wanted a reference display that more closely matched in size those of our audience. And the fact that even a 60" Kuro was considerably cheaper than the 23" BVM helped.

It's debatable how completely effective a 23" HD display is - even a full 1920x1080 rez capable one compared to a more common HDTV size of 50"+ For color accuracy it would be fine but for ultimate detail evaluation, perhaps not as much.

On a side note - does anyone know if the Sony 42" BVM LCD ever got released?

C.

Great discussion here folks.

For the record, we've elected to go with a 60" Pioneer Kuro Elite Signature 141 plasma and intend to have it ISF calibrated to whatever its full potential may be. It will be located in our boardroom for screening and connected to an HDCAM deck in our CER as well as our Avid Adrenaline online edit suite, Dish Network satellite receiver, ExpressVu satellite receiver, Rogers cable box, Playstation3 and a PC.

I saw the 23" Sony BVM LCD at NAB and admit it looked great for LCD technology. But ultimately, for our purposes at least, we wanted a reference display that more closely matched in size those of our audience. And the fact that even a 60" Kuro was considerably cheaper than the 23" BVM helped.

It's debatable how completely effective a 23" HD display is - even a full 1920x1080 rez capable one compared to a more common HDTV size of 50"+ For color accuracy it would be fine but for ultimate detail evaluation, perhaps not as much.

On a side note - does anyone know if the Sony 42" BVM LCD ever got released?

C.
Thanks for th update. Probably a good choice seeing the price for the competition.

How many people really do have 20-25 inch displays out there that serve as their main TV?

Tng not many if they do its usualy the older crt's (read dont want to upgrade or pay cash for a new one as usualy the case is "whats wrong with this one" or this one not broken....

Gus, it was a simple comaparison between two panels by the OP and nothing else. If you haven't seen the Sony then you can not say for fact which is better. That's the bottom line.

That's good advice.