My condo is one of these ex apartment complexs that has been renovated and sold. I have a neighbor directly on the oppisite wall of my living room. Wall is double stud with insulation. I have a neighbor directly below me. Wood frame floor with maybe 2" lightweight concrete deck topper. The other neighbors are in a configuration that I don't think they will be affected much.

1) My general listening habits are well below refrence level. If I was to purchase a decent sub and have it balanced more or less with the rest of the levels will I become one of those "Bad neighbors?"

2) If I'm not a "bad neighbor" will I be able to hear the sub? Don't necessarily need it to shake my booty or anything but I would like it to sound good and full. Will this happen at low (relativley speaking) volume levels?

My room is basically 13'x35'x8'. The listening portion is probably 13'x15'. Laminate floors, sheetrocked walls.

I'm currently looking at the SVS 16-46PCi but would be happy to entertain any other recommendations.

My criteria other than good sound (not necessarily boom-boom):
1) Footprint- need it fairly small in foot print. Think 24"x24" is about the biggest thing I could fit.
2) Looks- Unless it looks completely out of place or odd I probalby need something with a decent wood veneer finish on it. If it's one of those "conversation piece" looking things then I could probably get away with any look.
3) Main use is video games with movies/tv second and very limited if any music.
4) Current setup is Denon 2809 running 4 polk rti8s and a csi3 center with a 10" jbl scs sub.
5) Budget- As cheap as possible but realisticly somewhere around the $500 to $700 range


Thanks

How about an SB12 Plus (http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-sb12plus.cfm) for around $800. Be sure to add a Subdude or two underneath it.

http://www.deephzaudio.com/sb12plus_grill_comp.jpg

http://www.truesoundcontrol.com/images/products/SUBDUDE-LARGE.jpg

Size and look are about perfect. Price is a little higher than I Was hoping for. Always seems to be the case , especially when my original sub budget was $200 before I started researching.

According to the graph it doesn't appear to be as good as the 16-46 if the graph means anything. Any personal comparrison sound wise between the sb12 and the 16-46pci?

The SB-12 in my humble opinion is a very weak sub. It just not go deep...It is too small and does not have a high excursion driver...

Size and look are about perfect. Price is a little higher than I Was hoping for. Always seems to be the case , especially when my original sub budget was $200 before I started researching.

According to the graph it doesn't appear to be as good as the 16-46 if the graph means anything. Any personal comparrison sound wise between the sb12 and the 16-46pci?

The SB12-Plus is designed with totally different goals in mind than the 16-46. The cylinder is big, ported, and tuned deep to deliver lots of output down to 15hz and below. The SB12-Plus is designed to be decor friendly, and from what owners have said, it sounds very good for music and does a decent job for HT considering its size. Virtually no subwoofers with the SB12-Plus's form factor will produce what the bassaholics here on AVS would consider a satisfying HT experience. In your large room, you'll probably have decent output to around 25-27hz. The SB12-Plus won't go really deep and it won't knock you out of your chair with ridiculous SPL's, but everything I've seen from owners seems to indicate that what it does it does well.

Keep in mind that SVS on its own website recommends that if you have the space for one of their larger ported subs, you'll get more bang for the buck with one of their other models. But if the small, attractive form factor is a must, the SB12 Plus is a good all around performer.

I guess that's the reason why I was looking at the cylinders. The footprint is small enough and I think I can get away with a little black water heater sitting in the corner.

Obviously the sb12 looks much better than the cylinders but if I'm going to blow X number of dollars on a sub that I'm going to listen to at low levels it might as well be excellent at what it does so I can use it again when I eventually move to a location where I don't share walls with the neighbors.

(EDIT: I think I can get away with an out of place water heater easier than having a minifridge sitting in the corner)

I guess right now I'm looking at range or going deep as opposed to SPL. LArge room but I'm assuming pretty much anything out there should be able to get the SPL I'm looking for right now.

I guess that's the reason why I was looking at the cylinders. The footprint is small enough and I think I can get away with a little black water heater sitting in the corner.

Obviously the sb12 looks much better than the cylinders but if I'm going to blow X number of dollars on a sub that I'm going to listen to at low levels it might as well be excellent at what it does so I can use it again when I eventually move to a location where I don't share walls with the neighbors.

(EDIT: I think I can get away with an out of place water heater easier than having a minifridge sitting in the corner)

I guess right now I'm looking at range or going deep as opposed to SPL. LArge room but I'm assuming pretty much anything out there should be able to get the SPL I'm looking for right now.

If you don't listen at really high levels, the 16-46 PCi will probably work out. But if you want a little more mid bass punch (with the compromise of less extension below 20hz) the 20-39 PCi might be a better fit for your room. I'd recommend e-mailing SVS. They're extremely helpful and will make sure you end up with the right sub for your room.

Think I will email them and see what they say.

Got a response from SVS:

Thanks for contacting SVS. Your room is on the larger side but for moderate-low volumes a single PCi sub would do just fine and sound great. I would suggest trying to locate it near a corner and/or close to the listening position for added SPL power just to save you some headroom though. Also, adding a second PCi down the road will also be a great option for when you get the ability to turn it up more to bone shaking levels ;^)

As for which one, the 16-46 usually isn't worth the drop in SPL from deepening the tuning point (especially in a room as large as yours) unless you listen to a lot of organ music. The recommendation for a 20-39 is dead on as that has the best overall balance of the line and sounds the best for most people.

Lastly, as I said a PCi would be good for around moderate-low volumes, but if you think you'd be safe pushing levels anywhere between moderate and loud while in your apartment then stepping up to a PC-Plus 20-39 would definitely be worth it. The added headroom, adjustable tuning points, and better overall sound quality make this a standout sub that'll sound great at low volumes but also be safe further down the road as well.

We appreciate the opportunity to earn your business and if you have any other questions just let us know.

Obviously CS is part sales but he steered me away from the higher priced model to the mid level and that's not a bad thing. Did step it up to the next tier though. Agreed with you lalakersfan...you don't work for svs do you?

The question I replied with and wish to know form you guys is, will I get the full audio experience out of the 20-39? I like the fact that the 16-46 pushes sub sonic so I know I'm getting the most out of my purchase but is there much in that range for videogames or movies? Will 20hz+ suffice? My most recent fully watched movie was war of the worlds and I swear (possibly incorrectly) that the tripods tore it up in the theater but at home they have a very eerie silence while "poofing" people. Current sub is rated in the brochure at 30hz-120hz, box set deal.

Second question is...since my budget is potentially blown to hell any rival subs in the $1k range that I should look at with similar footprint to the svs?

Hi again :)


Obviously CS is part sales but he steered me away from the higher priced model to the mid level and that's not a bad thing. Did step it up to the next tier though. Agreed with you lalakersfan...you don't work for svs do you?

Nope, I don't work for SVS, though I do think very highly of them as a company. They have great products and unbelievable customer service. I know a good deal about the cylinders because I talked at length with them about the differences between the different cylinder models as I was considering purchasing a cylinder. I ended up getting one of their box subs instead (ironic, huh?) but I have a pretty good grasp as to the performance differences between models. BTW, I wouldn't call myself a "fan boy" of the company - in fact, I just sold my SVS subs and purchased an Epik Castle (nothing wrong with the SVS's - the Castle was just the cheapest way for me to get insane output ;)), but I'll always think very well of the company and will certainly consider SVS for my future subwoofer needs.

The question I replied with and wish to know form you guys is, will I get the full audio experience out of the 20-39? I like the fact that the 16-46 pushes sub sonic so I know I'm getting the most out of my purchase but is there much in that range for videogames or movies? Will 20hz+ suffice?

You'll get virtually all of it. The 20-39 models should probably get you down to around 17hz in your room. Is there stuff below that? Sure. Is there very much or is it a big enough deal to worry about? That's your call. WOTW is one of the few movies that has a lot of strong content in the ~15-20hz range. Flight of the Phoenix and Cloverfield are two others. I'd say probably at least 95% of movie bass is above 20hz. Probably 99% is above 15hz. Of course, some movies have stuff even the 16-46 can't reach. Black Hawk Down has some 8hz bass in the F*cking Irene scene when the helicopters are taking off. You can drive yourself nuts trying to reproduce every last bit of bass, but only you can decide if it's worth the extra money. And again, while the 16-46 cylinders dig deeper, they have less output capabilities in the much more common 25hz and up range compared to the 20-39. SVS often recommends that if you're going for the 16-46's, you might want a pair so you can dig deep while retaining the impact of the non infrasonic bass.

The 20-39 cylinders should still give deliver the goods for pretty much everything in WOTW and the other movies that have really low bass as well. Sure, there may be a couple things the 16-46 reaches that the 20-39 can't, but the 20-39 will give you more impact on the vast majority of bass. My opinion: unless you're going to spring for two 16-46's, I'd stick with the 20-39 in a room as large as yours. Of course at that point, it would make much more sense to go with a single PC13 Ultra than two 16-46 Pluses, as the Ultra is in a whole different league in terms of sound quality and probably wouldn't give up much if anything in terms of output against the two 16-46's.


Second question is...since my budget is potentially blown to hell any rival subs in the $1k range that I should look at with similar footprint to the svs?

There are quite a few subs out there that can give the SVS Plus subs a run for their money (or flat out outperform them) in the $1000 range. Unfortunately, not many (if any) will do so with such a small footprint. If the footprint is important, the SVS cylinders are probably your best option. The Epik Castle I just ordered is $999 plus shipping. Its performance is more often compared to the SVS PB13 Ultra, so it should have no problem besting the Plus line in terms of raw performance. Of course it has a cabinet that's 26"h x 18"w x 26"d - not exactly a small footprint ;). I'd recommend dialoguing back and forth a couple more times with SVS to make sure you're getting the best sub for your needs. They'll be honest and up front with you. You already experienced how they didn't automatically recommend their most expensive cylinder even though they could have. I've heard they have occasionally even recommended subs from other companies if they felt none of theirs offered what a potential customer needed. Good luck!

BTW, one more suggestion. If you're planning to spring for the Plus and if you don't mind waiting a little, SVS is coming out with a brand new Plus line in October. The new 12.4 woofer looks to be more like the Ultra 13 woofer, and many people are speculating that the new Plus line will have more output and better sound quality. Of course it's looking like it'll be a couple of months before it starts shipping, so if time is of the essence don't worry about it. Just thought I'd mention it in case waiting for the new model was of interest to you.

BTW, one more suggestion. If you're planning to spring for the Plus and if you don't mind waiting a little, SVS is coming out with a brand new Plus line in October. The new 12.4 woofer looks to be more like the Ultra 13 woofer, and many people are speculating that the new Plus line will have more output and better sound quality. Of course it's looking like it'll be a couple of months before it starts shipping, so if time is of the essence don't worry about it. Just thought I'd mention it in case waiting for the new model was of interest to you.


Keep in mind, you are taking advise from a guy who has twin PB10's in his bedroom! :D


Ian :p

Keep in mind, you are taking advise from a guy who has twin PB10's in his bedroom! :D


Ian :p

Correction - a guy who had twin PB10's in his bedroom. There should be an Epik Castle in there in about 2-3 weeks :D.

BTW, great to hear from you again, Ian. Hope all is going well with you :).

I wouldn't even buy a sub in an apartment...LOL

What is the point if you can't crank it up like a movie should be watched.

BUT if you are going to get one the SB-12 or the PCI 25-31 would be my apartment choice. They won't BLAST you with super low building shaking bass (which you can't have anyways), but they will give you some high quality bass from 25hz and up!

Keep in mind, you are taking advise from a guy who has twin PB10's in his bedroom! :D


Ian :p

lol. That's part of the problem with these boards, everyone is very different. I've never tried one of those vibrating beds but I think I'd rent a cheap motel room to try it out before putting two PB10s in my bedroom.

Probably very likely that what lalakersfan thinks is moderate SPL is serious overkill for me. He's got the good info though.

Thanks for the quick replies lalakersfan. I was originally planning on waiting a month or two before ordering, possibly after christmas time or maybe one of those christmas presents to myself I always seem to get, so I probalby will be able to see what they come out with in october.

lol. That's part of the problem with these boards, everyone is very different. I've never tried one of those vibrating beds but I think I'd rent a cheap motel room to try it out before putting two PB10s in my bedroom.

Probably very likely that what lalakersfan thinks is moderate SPL is serious overkill for me. He's got the good info though.

Thanks for the quick replies lalakersfan. I was originally planning on waiting a month or two before ordering, possibly after christmas time or maybe one of those christmas presents to myself I always seem to get, so I probalby will be able to see what they come out with in october.

Good idea. BTW, I really did try to make "moderate" mean "moderate" in my replies. I know not everyone wants 115dB explosions during their movies. If I were recommending for your room according to my bass expectations I'd have probably suggested two Ultras. Obviously that's overkill for you, but I really do think that given your needs, the 20-39 PC+ would be a good fit. And since you're planning on waiting a bit anyway, I'd certainly wait for the new one. It looks like it'll be a substantial upgrade.

I was originally planning on waiting a month or two before ordering, possibly after christmas time or maybe one of those christmas presents to myself I always seem to get, so I probalby will be able to see what they come out with in october.

Those are the best presents - they always seem to be exactly what you want! Amazing how that happens ;)

lol. Always feel guilty for a few minutes when I buy a present for myself that rivals the price of all the gifts I give to others combined. But yeah they are always exactly what I wanted.

SVS's response to the WOTW question:

Based on those levels a PC-Plus 20-39 will definitely be worth it for you then. And in War of the Worlds, you're definitely missing out on the bass for that scene if there's silence. Actually you just inspired me to pop it in again to "double check" ;^)

I'm not sure if you've ever looked at waterfall charts for DVDs, but they can be fun for telling you where the bass is for certain scenes. Right at 26:22 (instant the tripod starts smoking people) here's a chart of the bass... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v24/weezR/Waterfalls/WotW_ch6_26.jpg

Top of the chart is the frequency, and the color relates to the amount of bass in the scene, so there's a TON of bass right around 30Hz and below there. Definitely noticeable and if your current sub isn't letting you hear that you're in for a treat once you get a PC-Plus in there. And if you're interested in finding the amount of deep bass in other scenes or other movies (good way to find the best demo movies to show off your sub with), here's a forum post with lots of them. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=755493#anchor23

And that would be great if you posted it to AVSforum.

These guys seem to have the love and the knowledge. I'm completely sold on the 20-39PC+ unless of course they release something better late 4th quarter or I happen to get a break during christmas and can pick up an ultra.

I was wondering about buttkickers. From the reviews it sounds like it might be worth the $400 to mount one in my couch. Any experience with those? I would love to get the vibration to match the sound since I can't crank it. I'm worried that they are just vibrations like the forcefeedback in game controllers/joysticks. Do they actually simulate the bass efect accuratley?

lol. Always feel guilty for a few minutes when I buy a present for myself that rivals the price of all the gifts I give to others combined. But yeah they are always exactly what I wanted.

...

These guys seem to have the love and the knowledge. I'm completely sold on the 20-39PC+ unless of course they release something better late 4th quarter or I happen to get a break during christmas and can pick up an ultra.

I was wondering about buttkickers. From the reviews it sounds like it might be worth the $400 to mount one in my couch. Any experience with those? I would love to get the vibration to match the sound since I can't crank it. I'm worried that they are just vibrations like the forcefeedback in game controllers/joysticks. Do they actually simulate the bass efect accuratley?

LOL, you're already thinking Ultra! Bass addictions sure come quickly :D

A PC-13 Ultra would be amazing in your room, but I'm sure the 20-39 PC+ (or better yet, the up-and-coming Plus) would be a great sub as well - FAR better than what you have now. Scenes like WOTW Pods Emerging will be a whole different experience, as that graph shows ;). All of that "nothing" you have right now will be gut-wrenching bass. When the ground implodes, it will FEEL like your floor is caving in. You have no idea what you're missing now, but once you experience it I don't think you'll understand how you did without it before :D.

Just to keep my progress and conversation with SVS uptodate here are a couple more responses:


Sorry for the delay, let me pipe in if I may. :)

For your needs, the 20-39 PC-Plus would be about perfect. The new stuff you mention we've got coming out might be something that interests you, though, especially if you don't need a sub right now. We've got a new PC12-Plus hitting the site any day which is an improved version of the 20-39; brand new driver and port flares as well as amp optimizations for better overall performance and increased resistance to overload should you ever want to really crank it. :) This is on-pre-order now at $899, and will be $999 regular price when it ships in mid-late November.

Reading back, you really should hear something on those tripod strikes from WOTW. Can I ask what your AVR/DVD model and settings are, and what sub you're currently using?

and then then the next one

Yeah, the PC12 is going to be killer at the price, and saving $100 is worth the pre-order I think. That's the idea, save some cash if you can wait a bit. The site's not updated yet with the PC12-Plus pre-order info, but you can call us at (877) 626-5623 if you want to get your order in.

As far as settings, make sure your speakers are set to "small", subwoofer to "yes", and there's no LFE attenuation applied (should be set to 0). Are you using bitstream or LPCM from the PS3? While the JBL won't come anywhere near the PC12 in the bottom octave for clean output, you should feel at least some midbass punch on those scenes if the bass is being directed to the right place.

and another:

Understood. I like to see stuff, too, before I order. :) The page should be up very soon. Maybe even later today, if all goes well.

I'm assuming this is a standard DVD of WOTW, and not a BD right? You might try using a bitstream setting for the DD track just to compare, make sure nothing funky's going on with the LPCM. I haven't heard of any quirks in LPCM handling with either the PS3 or the latest Denons, though.

So I'm going to play guinea pig and give the PC12+ a try once they get it up on thier site. Will suck to wait until it ships but I don't see that being a huge problem.

I've been extremely impressed with SVS's service so far and I'm not even an actual customer yet.

Try this sub: http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/productDetail.do?oid=190834#prodspecs&linkid=j26679993&affiliateid=k175726&mid=5336055023

You can easily return it if it does not work out.

Build a custom cushion using two carpet pads sandwiching some memory foam, and then place the sub on top the cushion.

My general listening habits are well below reference level.
You said. Also =3) Main use is video games with movies/tv second and very limited if any music.
My question is why do you want so much sub?? Unless you are moving into a house I don't see why you would need the Plus? Not for music so SQ isn't going to make muh differece with games and movies imo.The plus you would need if you are going to play it LOUD. But I guess if you have a good sub it's better than always wondering. And you can play it loud when you invite your neighbors over for movies or when they leave.

My general listening habits are well below reference level.
You said. Also =3) Main use is video games with movies/tv second and very limited if any music.
My question is why do you want so much sub?? Unless you are moving into a house I don't see why you would need the Plus? Not for music so SQ isn't going to make muh differece with games and movies imo.The plus you would need if you are going to play it LOUD. But I guess if you have a good sub it's better than always wondering. And you can play it loud when you invite your neighbors over for movies or when they leave.


I'm pretty sure it's overkill but why not? When I do move it should work fine wherever I go. On the otherside if I do want to show it off I can crank it for a while (neighbors usually think it's some car/truck with blacked out windows driving down the street) or when the neighbors are out to work or vacation.

Guess it's mostly one of those...I'll always wonder what it might have sounded like.

Don't get me wrong that probably is a good choice even for your listen habits. Better to know you can and don't want to than wish your sub could :). And it's actually cheaper to buy a killer sub the first time. Instead of buying again and again IME.Remember post pics when received.

Don't get me wrong that probably is a good choice even for your listen habits. Better to know you can and don't want to than wish your sub could :). And it's actually cheaper to buy a killer sub the first time. Instead of buying again and again IME.Remember post pics when received.

+1

Though I think I have a pretty good idea what it'll look like ;)

I'm pretty sure it's overkill but why not? When I do move it should work fine wherever I go. On the otherside if I do want to show it off I can crank it for a while (neighbors usually think it's some car/truck with blacked out windows driving down the street) or when the neighbors are out to work or vacation.

Guess it's mostly one of those...I'll always wonder what it might have sounded like.

Sounds like SVS is impressing you with their great service. And don't worry - post-sale, they're just as good if not better with their customers :). I think you're making a good decision waiting and getting the new PC Plus. Do I think you'll drive the Plus to its limits? No, but that's a good thing - you'll have lower distortion, better linearity, and less compression. As you said, you'll also have the option to crank things if you want to. And besides, take it from someone who's made a bunch of incremental subwoofer upgrades over the past two years (me), getting something that's very capable now will save you money and provide more enjoyment in the long run. I have a feeling you're going to love that new Plus. The current Plus is already an excellent performer, but that new one looks like it should provide a very noticeable improvement. Keep us posted :).

Hmm, was checking out some videos on youtube of comperable subs to the 20-39.... maybe I am looking at way too much sub for an apartment/condo. I assume the stuff in the videos is at insane volumes but the videos had my little PC sub vibrating me a bit.

I might have to reverse my living room. Nowhere near the couch to place anything other than the surrounds since there is a door on one side and my dining area on the other. Just from watching those videos with my little PC sub it is apparent that near placement is very effective for low volumes (sub is sitting under my desk maybe 6in max from my feet if they aren't sitting on the sub). Guess the good thing is that I rarely if ever listen to anything that goes that low unless it's a movie every few months.

Hmm, was checking out some videos on youtube of comperable subs to the 20-39.... maybe I am looking at way too much sub for an apartment/condo. I assume the stuff in the videos is at insane volumes but the videos had my little PC sub vibrating me a bit.

I might have to reverse my living room. Nowhere near the couch to place anything other than the surrounds since there is a door on one side and my dining area on the other. Just from watching those videos with my little PC sub it is apparent that near placement is very effective for low volumes (sub is sitting under my desk maybe 6in max from my feet if they aren't sitting on the sub). Guess the good thing is that I rarely if ever listen to anything that goes that low unless it's a movie every few months.

Nearfield placement is a good idea in an apartment. You'll get more impact and the sub won't have to be producing as much bass to do it (your neighbors will appreciate that ;)).

Sorry for the necro but just wanted to say thank you to all you guys for your input and give an update.

Have the PC12+ in the living room and am loving it. I seem to be more enthusiastic about watching movies and watching them much much louder than I did before. I stick to 2pm saturday or sunday for movie viewing times to avoid any major complaints from the neighbors but I assume I will get a couple once they figure out what the hell is going on between 2 and 4pm on the weekends. Luckily movies are more sporatic with the bass than music so I'm good for at least a month or so.

You're going to need some serious luck pulling this off for any amount of time living in an apartment. :eek:

Um....So I poped in wotw to check the lightning strike and tripod comming out of the ground scenes a couple minutes ago.

I think you are right, I'm going to need some serious luck. I'm a little concerned that my place isn't built well enough to watch a movie like that at refrence levels.

Looks like loud will be used on very quick dmeos for friends and the rest of the time it's quiet listening for me.