I have narrowed my search down to two models, one LCD and one Plasma: the Sony 52" XBR5 and the Pioneer Kuro 5020. At this point in time, I can get both for the same price. I have viewed them both, and noted pros and cons about both. The kuro looked to have a "smoother" picture and more accurate colors, but the picture looked very dim. The image on the XBR looked almost 3-D, has better aesthetics IMO, but sometimes looked a bit granular. However, I am sure that whichever I pick will look fantastic once I get it home. So, what I am looking for is opinions from those who own either of these TVs, or have seen them in a setting outside of a showroom, who can comment on which will work best in my environment.

The TV is going in the living room which has several windows. Use is 70% TV (all HD), 20% XBOX360, 10% Movies (SD, Bluray, and HD-DVD). Movies are played off of my HTPC.

I currently have a 34" XBR tube tv and I love the picture. The glare off the tv is not noticeable, so I am guessing that a glossy screen will not bother me. Given these criteria, is one a "better" choice than the other?

I don't have either set, but I say go for the Pioneer. It may look more dim in the store, but once you get it home it will be more than bright enough for viewing. In the stores it looks dim because of all the fluorescent lights and next to LCDs turned on torch mode. You won't regreat the 5020.

I have had the XBR4 (which is identical to the XBR5 except for the RS232port),
and I have had the 6020 (which is Identical to the 5020 except its 10 inches bigger).

I can tell without a single doubt that the XBR4 comes nowhere near the 5020 in terms of black levels, motion handling, contrast, viewing angles, screen uniformity, color saturation, etc. etc. etc. etc.
This is an absolute no-brainer unless you plan on mounting the set outside beside your pool with the sun beating down on it.

Don't be worried about the fact that the 5020 does not look overblown and "torchy" in the stores.

You will be amazed how much more happy you will be with the 5020.

trust me.

very well said chad and who better yet then the person that owned both sets, even with the setback of less picture controls the 5020 will outperforme the xbr.... although both the 5020 and pro-111 are on sale right now through our forum sponser, i just got my pro-111 from one of the sponsers roman o im in kuro heaven, its a very nice display and the expereince working with roman is awesome! confidence is what i could say about it ....

get a 5020 over an xbr but if you can budge get a pro-111 you can see visable difference between both.


I have had the XBR4 (which is identical to the XBR5 except for the RS232port),
and I have had the 6020 (which is Identical to the 5020 except its 10 inches bigger).

I can tell without a single doubt that the XBR4 comes nowhere near the 5020 in terms of black levels, motion handling, contrast, viewing angles, screen uniformity, color saturation, etc. etc. etc. etc.
This is an absolute no-brainer unless you plan on mounting the set outside beside your pool with the sun beating down on it.

Don't be worried about the fact that the 5020 does not look overblown and "torchy" in the stores.

You will be amazed how much more happy you will be with the 5020.

trust me.

I had the 52XBR5 and can say that I would take a 5020 over the XBR5 in a heartbeat. The image quality of the Pioneers is just astonishing. The black level and ANSI contrast ratios alone make the 9G Kuros worth it. Just my personal opinion on the matter, of course.

One more vote for the PIO :)

There's not really much comparison, 5020 over any current XBR. That is until the XBR 8 is out :eek: then we'll see.

No contest, Pioneer.

What is your priority? Daytime viewing or night? The XBR4 has looked nice to me in store and in those same settings the Kuro looks dim to me as well.

However, I saw the XBR4 in a Sony Store and I could control the lighting. When I was there I calibrated the TV for maximum black levels for a darkened room. Bright scenes were a little brighter than the Kuro, but most scenes were dimmer and black levels were absolutely horrid. In this type of setting IMO it wasn't even in the same ballpark as the Kuro. In fact, I don't think the black levels were even as good as what they are on my SXRD.

Having said that, I suggest figure out if daytime viewing is your priority.

Good luck!

Wow. I had no idea that the general consensus would be so strong for the Pioneer.

I have had the XBR4 (which is identical to the XBR5 except for the RS232port),
and I have had the 6020 (which is Identical to the 5020 except its 10 inches bigger).

I can tell without a single doubt that the XBR4 comes nowhere near the 5020 in terms of black levels, motion handling, contrast, viewing angles, screen uniformity, color saturation, etc. etc. etc. etc.
This is an absolute no-brainer unless you plan on mounting the set outside beside your pool with the sun beating down on it.

Don't be worried about the fact that the 5020 does not look overblown and "torchy" in the stores.

You will be amazed how much more happy you will be with the 5020.

trust me.

Thanks! This is exactly the type of feedback I am looking for.

very well said chad and who better yet then the person that owned both sets, even with the setback of less picture controls the 5020 will outperforme the xbr.... although both the 5020 and pro-111 are on sale right now through our forum sponser, i just got my pro-111 from one of the sponsers roman o im in kuro heaven, its a very nice display and the expereince working with roman is awesome! confidence is what i could say about it ....

get a 5020 over an xbr but if you can budge get a pro-111 you can see visable difference between both.

Which forum sponsor has both displays on sale? Roman O, which shop do you represent?

Also, I will obviously do my own research, but for the increase in $$, what is my return on investment when stepping up to the pro model?

What is your priority? Daytime viewing or night? The XBR4 has looked nice to me in store and in those same settings the Kuro looks dim to me as well.

However, I saw the XBR4 in a Sony Store and I could control the lighting. When I was there I calibrated the TV for maximum black levels for a darkened room. Bright scenes were a little brighter than the Kuro, but most scenes were dimmer and black levels were absolutely horrid. In this type of setting IMO it wasn't even in the same ballpark as the Kuro. In fact, I don't think the black levels were even as good as what they are on my SXRD.

Having said that, I suggest figure out if daytime viewing is your priority.

Good luck!

My priority is both daytime and nighttime. I work from home 3-4 days a week, and like to have the TV on for news and sports in the background while I work. So given this, the TV needs to look good in settings all the way from direct sunlight to a dimmed room. I am less concerned about pitch black viewing, as when I watch movies, I generally use the overhead projector on the drop-down 106" screen. So, I would say that my priority is daytime viewing, and the TV has to have the ability to run ~14 hours/day. Does this change anyone's vote? Or more generally, is either a LCD or Plasma better suited for this?

Then I would probably say that the XBR5 would be a better choice. If you are watching almost exclusively during the day, the XBR5 will be good enough. If you want to just leave your TV on in the background while you do otherstuff, I would again say the XBR5. The Pioneers are better displays, but a lot of the benefit would be somewhat lost because of your daytime viewing. Don't get me wrong, while watching in the daytime with my 9G Pioneer, it still surpasses the XBR5, but most of my viewing is during the night time, which is why it makes more sense to go that route.

Plus, with the XBR5, you won't have to worry about burn-in or image retention, especially if you are just going to leave it running for 14 hours a day.

Hmm. Something else I just thought of is that I will be using the PC input for gaming as well. Just another bit of information to consider when making a recommendation.

Keep the input coming! This is good stuff.

If you are gaming from a PC, again I would say XBR5, just in case you decide to use your PC to browse on your TV during those 14 hours they are on. Gaming on my Pioneer has been exquisite, but if were still heavily gaming, I would start to worry more about static images (health bars, menus, etc.)

Wow. I had no idea that the general consensus would be so strong for the Pioneer.



Thanks! This is exactly the type of feedback I am looking for.



Which forum sponsor has both displays on sale? Roman O, which shop do you represent?

Also, I will obviously do my own research, but for the increase in $$, what is my return on investment when stepping up to the pro model?



My priority is both daytime and nighttime. I work from home 3-4 days a week, and like to have the TV on for news and sports in the background while I work. So given this, the TV needs to look good in settings all the way from direct sunlight to a dimmed room. I am less concerned about pitch black viewing, as when I watch movies, I generally use the overhead projector on the drop-down 106" screen. So, I would say that my priority is daytime viewing, and the TV has to have the ability to run ~14 hours/day. Does this change anyone's vote? Or more generally, is either a LCD or Plasma better suited for this?

When you say direct sunlight, Do you mean normal sunlight in a room, or do you mean letting the Sun beam directly on the Panel?
If you are letting the sun beam directly on the panel, LCD will look bad also. No display looks good with direct sunlight on it.
I am a pretty heavy gamer. Especially on weekends. I have had no problems with my pio at all.

When you say direct sunlight, Do you mean normal sunlight in a room, or do you mean letting the Sun beam directly on the Panel?
If you are letting the sun beam directly on the panel, LCD will look bad also. No display looks good with direct sunlight on it.
I am a pretty heavy gamer. Especially on weekends. I have had no problems with my pio at all.

Well, both in a way. My living room has windows on two sides, so even with the blinds closed, I get the glare of sunlight on the screen. I also have several lamps in the room that are on at night.

As I mentioned before, the room will never be totally dark. If it is, I am using the projector.

On to a slightly different topic: I know that I can afford the 5020, but probably won't spend enough to get the pro-111. However, a local store has the pro-110 for the same price as the 5020. Could someone please explain the pros/cons of each and how they compare against each others. Thanks.

No one actually mentioned this, but if you don't watch tv in a totally dark room, then white level is also important.
even during nighttime with lamps on XBR5 seems just not bright enough to me, if i watch photos taken with high dynamic range i prefer high brightness.
i'm pretty sure all plasmas have some problems with white performance.

Well, both in a way. My living room has windows on two sides, so even with the blinds closed, I get the glare of sunlight on the screen. I also have several lamps in the room that are on at night.

As I mentioned before, the room will never be totally dark. If it is, I am using the projector.



Get an LCD, Plasma during the day in a sunny room is not fun. Any sunlight that actually hits the screen will make it unwatchable, nightime viewing with lamps is fine, I actually prefer a bit of ambient light at night. However like I said if you cannot control ambient light during the day look elsewhere.

Ok, so let me summarize what I am hearing, and please comment if I misunderstood any of your comments.

1) The plasma will generally give me a better picture, but it may not be as good for daytime viewing.
2) The LCD is more suited to being left on for hours on end, serving as a computer monitor for gaming, and daytime viewing.

Is this correct?

I think my next step may be to try to view one or two of these panels in my home. If I went with plasma to see if I have good enough conditions to make it shine, I am thinking the 5020. However, as I asked in one of my previous posts, what are the main differences between the 5020, the pro-110, and the pro-111. Also, how does the samsung 650 and the panasonic 800u fit in to the picture.

If I decide that LCD is the way, aside from the xbr5, how does the samsung 860 or the sony "w" series fit in?

I know I just blew away the original scope of my post, but sense I seem to be getting several helpful responses, I decided to try to pick your brains for a bit. Thanks.

I have narrowed my search down to two models, one LCD and one Plasma: the Sony 52" XBR5 and the Pioneer Kuro 5020. At this point in time, I can get both for the same price. I have viewed them both, and noted pros and cons about both. The kuro looked to have a "smoother" picture and more accurate colors, but the picture looked very dim. The image on the XBR looked almost 3-D, has better aesthetics IMO, but sometimes looked a bit granular. However, I am sure that whichever I pick will look fantastic once I get it home. So, what I am looking for is opinions from those who own either of these TVs, or have seen them in a setting outside of a showroom, who can comment on which will work best in my environment.

The TV is going in the living room which has several windows. Use is 70% TV (all HD), 20% XBOX360, 10% Movies (SD, Bluray, and HD-DVD). Movies are played off of my HTPC.

I currently have a 34" XBR tube tv and I love the picture. The glare off the tv is not noticeable, so I am guessing that a glossy screen will not bother me. Given these criteria, is one a "better" choice than the other?

I pass on both. Wait for the XBR8. The 5020 is too noisy.

I pass on both. Wait for the XBR8. The 5020 is too noisy.

Too noisy? Please explain.

As for the XBR8, I would love it. However, I'm not willing to spend more than $3k on a TV, will you cover the rest? :D

Too noisy? Please explain.

As for the XBR8, I would love it. However, I'm not willing to spend more than $3k on a TV, will you cover the rest? :D

The Kuro does have the best blacks, even does a good job of maintaining go black level in lighted enviorments, however the picture is noisy or grainy, just like the 8th generation sets.

The Kuro does have the best blacks, even does a good job of maintaining go black level in lighted enviorments, however the picture is noisy or grainy, just like the 8th generation sets.

OK - I'm listening. Given my criteria that I have laid out in this thread, do you have a recommendation that I should consider?

Cavalier, I suggest you go and look at both televisions for yourself and verify what auditor is saying to be true or false. Like I said, I had the XBR5 and now a 151FD and I would NEVER consider the 151FD noisy. But, both Auditor and I can tell you what WE see but it won't do any good for you without your verification.

Cavalier, I suggest you go and look at both televisions for yourself and verify what auditor is saying to be true or false. Like I said, I had the XBR5 and now a 151FD and I would NEVER consider the 151FD noisy. But, both Auditor and I can tell you what WE see but it won't do any good for you without your verification.

I absolutely agree with you, which is why I have viewed both. The problem is that viewing a TV in a store is not an accurate indication of how it looks when you get it in a home environment, set the settings, watch real programs versus HD loops, etc. Thus led me to the intention of my initial post, to have people who have owned each TV to chime in since it is often a hassle or not possible to audition a TV in a home setting while deciding.

I absolutely agree with you, which is why I have viewed both. The problem is that viewing a TV in a store is not an accurate indication of how it looks when you get it in a home environment, set the settings, watch real programs versus HD loops, etc. Thus led me to the intention of my initial post, to have people who have owned each TV to chime in since it is often a hassle or not possible to audition a TV in a home setting while deciding.

Be very careful who you take advice from on this forum, Auditor doesn't own either of these TVs and has an agenda. If you want further proof just look up his posting history. There are many reasons not to want a Kuro but noise isn't one of them.

Be very careful who you take advice from on this forum, Auditor doesn't own either of these TVs and has an agenda. If you want further proof just look up his posting history. There are many reasons not to want a Kuro but noise isn't one of them.

Understood. Thanks.

Be very careful who you take advice from on this forum, Auditor doesn't own either of these TVs and has an agenda. If you want further proof just look up his posting history. There are many reasons not to want a Kuro but noise isn't one of them.

very good advise especially in this situation.

cavalier240 ,
If your going to let the sun beam directly on your panel then you will have issues no matter what you do.

If you go with plasma, then your blacks won't look as good as if you were in a room with normal ambient light.

If you go with Matte screen LCD, then the panel will absorb the Sunlight like a sponge and destroy your blacks and your colors will lose thier depth and the picture will look lifeless.

If you go with a glossy screened LCD then the reflections will be worse than Plasma and it will be down right mirror like and you might not make it thru it.

very good advise especially in this situation.

cavalier240 ,
If your going to let the sun beam directly on your panel then you will have issues no matter what you do.

If you go with plasma, then your blacks won't look as good as if you were in a room with normal ambient light.

If you go with Matte screen LCD, then the panel will absorb the Sunlight like a sponge and destroy your blacks and your colors will lose thier depth and the picture will look lifeless.

If you go with a glossy screened LCD then the reflections will be worse than Plasma and it will be down right mirror like and you might not make it thru it.

I see. Well, the glare off of my XBR800 CRT doesn't bother me, so I assume a glossy screen won't bother me. I'm more concerned with the picture being washed out rather than reflections.

My dad has an XBR4 (he's a diehard Sony freak)
Despite everything I've tried to get a picture comparable to my once beloved
Sony 34" crt with SFP - adjusting black levels, gamma, detail enhancer on or off, movie 1 or movie2 settings, backlight adjustments, etc.- the picture is barely a meh.
The 5020 is shockingly good (should have an almost identical picture to the pro elite 151 I saw at BB). Though I slightly prefer Sammy Led's (just personal preference), the Kuro is second to none. The 5020 all the way!:)

If you're seriously looking, let the workers know that you want to check out the television's remotes to fiddle with them. I suggest getting D-Nice's settings for the 5020 and inputting those into the television. There are a few renowned people in the LCD forum that have great settings for the XBR4/5, too. Use those and see.

As for what Auditor says about it being "Too noisy", I don't agree at all. What other say is true, he doesn't own either set, nor does he have interest in either set. So his opinion regarding both is certainly going to come off more negative than anything.

The Kuro does have the best blacks, even does a good job of maintaining go black level in lighted enviorments, however the picture is noisy or grainy, just like the 8th generation sets.

I know I shouldn't feed the troll...but what on earth do you speak of?! Why do you insist on making things up?

I pass on both. Wait for the XBR8. The 5020 is too noisy.

Are you serious? He just said that watching movies in a darkened room isn't his priority so why would you suggest he spend twice the money on a display that may not even benefit him that much? And honestly, from the endless posts you've made slamming the Pioneer on pricing I find it quite odd that you'd suggest a $7000 55" TV to a guy who's looking at TVs that have a street price of about $3k. :eek:

Then I would probably say that the XBR5 would be a better choice. If you are watching almost exclusively during the day, the XBR5 will be good enough. If you want to just leave your TV on in the background while you do otherstuff, I would again say the XBR5. The Pioneers are better displays, but a lot of the benefit would be somewhat lost because of your daytime viewing. Don't get me wrong, while watching in the daytime with my 9G Pioneer, it still surpasses the XBR5, but most of my viewing is during the night time, which is why it makes more sense to go that route.

Plus, with the XBR5, you won't have to worry about burn-in or image retention, especially if you are just going to leave it running for 14 hours a day.

I agree. If it were me I might even consider a Samsung 650 which is a bit cheaper than $3k. The downside would be that the screen is somewhat reflective but the black levels will be quite a bit better than the xbr5.

Be very careful who you take advice from on this forum, Auditor doesn't own either of these TVs and has an agenda. If you want further proof just look up his posting history. There are many reasons not to want a Kuro but noise isn't one of them.

Everyone has an agenda around here. My agenda is for the unobstructed emergence of new technology, which don't classify the XBR LCD's or Kuro's as such.

You don't have to own a TV give an opinion of its pro's and cons.

Everyone has an agenda around here. My agenda is for the unobstructed emergence of new technology, which don't classify the XBR LCD's or Kuro's as such.

You don't have to own a TV give an opinion of its pro's and cons.

Please don't even try, your posts are borderline ridiculous and focus on slander and lies. If I see you posting non sense I'm always going to call you out on it.

Are you serious? He just said that watching movies in a darkened room isn't his priority so why would you suggest he spend twice the money on a display that may not even benefit him that much? And honestly, from the endless posts you've made slamming the Pioneer on pricing I find it quite odd that you'd suggest a $7000 55" TV to a guy who's looking at TVs that have a street price of about $3k. :eek:

Is it confirmed that the XBR8 is going to cost 7k? Also, I believe the XBR8 will look good in both dark and bright enviornments.

Please don't even try, your posts are borderline ridiculous and focus on slander and lies. If I see you posting non sense I'm always going to call you out on it.

I'm one of the most objective posters around here.

...My agenda is for the unobstructed emergence of new technology, which don't classify the XBR LCD's or Kuro's as such....

Isn't the purpose of this thread to help the OP with advice on whether to get an xbr or the kuro and not emerging technology?

Many of us here realize the current issues with plasma and LCD and want a change just as much as you do. Negative talk about current technology isn't going to bring new technology to the market any faster. Even when this "new technology" hits the streets it will likely take years before it's available in 50-60" size and is affordable for the average person. The half glass empty attitude will always bring discontentment.

Isn't the purpose of this thread to help the OP with advice on whether to get an xbr or the kuro and not emerging technology?

Many of us here realize the current issues with plasma and LCD and want a change just as much as you do. Negative talk about current technology isn't going to bring new technology to the market any faster. Even when this "new technology" hits the streets it will likely take years before it's available in 50-60" size and is affordable for the average person. The half glass empty attitude will always bring discontentment.

Exactly, thank you. I do understand that there are greater technologies on the horizon. Heck, there are even newer and better technologies out now. The issue is that I do not want to pay for them, which is why I am not comparing the XBR6,7,8s to the Kuro Elite. I know how much I want to spend, and based on that, I am trying to determine how much bang I can get for those bucks, which in my case, may mean considering last years technologies.

Now, by all means, as I have mentioned a few posts above, if there are newer and better TVs that I should be considering in this general price range, then please feel free to comment on those. I'll even help you out - based on reading other threads and doing my research, I am also considering the following sets:

LCD:
Samsung LN52A750 (Good deals going right now)
Samsung LN52A860 (would have to wait for price to drop)
Sony KDL-52XBR6 (would have to wait for price to drop)

Plasma:
Samsung PN50A650
Samsung PN58A650 (if I can afford it, why not go bigger??)
Panasonic TH-50PZ800U

I am going to go do more in store research this weekend, so I will post more once I have a chance to view them all. Until then, however, feel free to post away on pros v cons, personal experiences, etc.

Thanks.

xb1032 has a point. Auditor, you are not helping the original poster by adding a third non-viable option right now. He's looking at something right now. XBR8 is not out yet.

Be very careful who you take advice from on this forum, Auditor doesn't own either of these TVs and has an agenda. If you want further proof just look up his posting history. There are many reasons not to want a Kuro but noise isn't one of them.
Patrick, you mention many reasons why not to own the 5020, I'm dciding between that and the Elite 50 111FD so any reson you may have would be important to me

Is it confirmed that the XBR8 is going to cost 7k? Also, I believe the XBR8 will look good in both dark and bright enviornments.

Yep. $6999.99. And like the Samsung 950 it will probably only be available in select high end stores which means don't expect much of a discount. Pioneer is expensive, but honestly Sony is no better than Pioneer when it comes to jacking up the price. The Kuro's are a bargain compared to this TV. The Sony may very well be better than the Kuro and I'm certain it won't have the brightness limitations that the Kuro has, but it'll cost ya! :)

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665532062

Exactly, thank you. I do understand that there are greater technologies on the horizon. Heck, there are even newer and better technologies out now. The issue is that I do not want to pay for them, which is why I am not comparing the XBR6,7,8s to the Kuro Elite. I know how much I want to spend, and based on that, I am trying to determine how much bang I can get for those bucks, which in my case, may mean considering last years technologies.

Now, by all means, as I have mentioned a few posts above, if there are newer and better TVs that I should be considering in this general price range, then please feel free to comment on those. I'll even help you out - based on reading other threads and doing my research, I am also considering the following sets:

LCD:
Samsung LN52A750 (Good deals going right now)
Samsung LN52A860 (would have to wait for price to drop)
Sony KDL-52XBR6 (would have to wait for price to drop)

Plasma:
Samsung PN50A650
Samsung PN58A650 (if I can afford it, why not go bigger??)
Panasonic TH-50PZ800U

I am going to go do more in store research this weekend, so I will post more once I have a chance to view them all. Until then, however, feel free to post away on pros v cons, personal experiences, etc.

Thanks.

I'd throw in the Samsung LN52A650 also. I believe the 750 just has more bells and whistles over the 650 but has is the same PQwise. Check out amazon. It's about thirty percent cheaper than your price range with free shipping. Black levels are supposed to be in the range of last years Pioneers which are still second to the current Pioneers (with exception of current LED LCDs) and will have plenty of brightness for daytime viewing. I really have no in home experience with LCDs other than computer monitors but the Sammy's sure look good in store to my eyes. Personally I think the gloss type screens on the Sammy's give the picture much more pop over the Sony's. However if reflections bother you that could be big strike against the Samsungs as they appear to be more glossy than even some plasmas.

Patrick, you mention many reasons why not to own the 5020, I'm dciding between that and the Elite 50 111FD so any reson you may have would be important to me

The negatives on the 5020 (I own a 6020) is mainly the user controls which Pioneer took away from the user:mad:. Movie mode is the preferred mode but the color temp is lower than 6500k which means it's a little more yellowish. You only get the basics. Most picture modes either don't have picture controls or you can only control contrast, brightness, color, tint, and sharpness. No color temperature which is totally unacceptable on a TV in this price range!!! Most picture modes also have black enhancer and edge enhancer is forced on you with the exception of Game mode (which is too blue) and movie mode.

Despite it's limitations the xx20 series are great plasmas. An Elite would be much better I'm sure as they have a MUCH better user menu and should have great color accuracy, but for one like myself who will want the next best next year if possible the Elite's aren't worth the extra cash to me. YMMV. Hope that helps. :)

The negatives on the 5020 (I own a 6020) is mainly the user controls which Pioneer took away from the user:mad:. Movie mode is the preferred mode but the color temp is lower than 6500k which means it's a little more yellowish. You only get the basics. Most picture modes either don't have picture controls or you can only control contrast, brightness, color, tint, and sharpness. No color temperature which is totally unacceptable on a TV in this price range!!! Most picture modes also have black enhancer and edge enhancer is forced on you with the exception of Game mode (which is too blue) and movie mode.

Despite it's limitations the xx20 series are great plasmas. An Elite would be much better I'm sure as they have a MUCH better user menu and should have great color accuracy, but for one like myself who will want the next best next year if possible the Elite's aren't worth the extra cash to me. YMMV. Hope that helps. :)

Thanks for your thoughts .... I checked Clarity's price today and the 111Fd can be bought for 3800. with shipping, not too bad

Thanks for your thoughts .... I checked Clarity's price today and the 111Fd can be bought for 3800. with shipping, not too bad

What is Clarity's website? I'm assuming that is a forum sponsor - I would like to check their prices on some of the other sets that I have mentioned.

What is Clarity's website? I'm assuming that is a forum sponsor - I would like to check their prices on some of the other sets that I have mentioned.

They're a forum sponsor, buybestplasma.com, RomanO posts frequently on the forums, he's posted in this thread.

The negatives on the 5020 (I own a 6020) is mainly the user controls which Pioneer took away from the user:mad:. Movie mode is the preferred mode but the color temp is lower than 6500k which means it's a little more yellowish. You only get the basics. Most picture modes either don't have picture controls or you can only control contrast, brightness, color, tint, and sharpness. No color temperature which is totally unacceptable on a TV in this price range!!! Most picture modes also have black enhancer and edge enhancer is forced on you with the exception of Game mode (which is too blue) and movie mode.

Despite it's limitations the xx20 series are great plasmas. An Elite would be much better I'm sure as they have a MUCH better user menu and should have great color accuracy, but for one like myself who will want the next best next year if possible the Elite's aren't worth the extra cash to me. YMMV. Hope that helps. :)

Shame on Pioneer for having picture controls on their plasmas.:

Yep. $6999.99. And like the Samsung 950 it will probably only be available in select high end stores which means don't expect much of a discount. Pioneer is expensive, but honestly Sony is no better than Pioneer when it comes to jacking up the price. The Kuro's are a bargain compared to this TV. The Sony may very well be better than the Kuro and I'm certain it won't have the brightness limitations that the Kuro has, but it'll cost ya! :)

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665532062

In this economy I don't see them selling too many of those sets, I wish that wasn't so because I believe they're going to be some killer LCD's.

They're going to be killer LCDs? We'll see when they finally get into the market. Auditor, honest question because I am curious: Is the RGB LED lighting going to be better in terms of zone lighting compared to previous renditions of LED back lighting? If so, could you explain further?

I thought the Samsung 81 series was an interesting attempt, but poorly implemented regardless. Also, the XBR8's $7000 quote price tag is definitely even tougher to swallow when there are so many other great sets to be had at much lower costs.

Shame on Pioneer for having picture controls on their plasmas.:

??????

Is it confirmed that the XBR8 is going to cost 7k? Also, I believe the XBR8 will look good in both dark and bright enviornments.

Yes, and how while it is a belief, how can you make that statement, as you have not seen it, nor have we had any indication of how it will perform in the latter enviornment.

I'm one of the most objective posters around here.

Your above statement is anything but. You managed to contradict yourself in a very short period of time.

Yep. $6999.99. And like the Samsung 950 it will probably only be available in select high end stores which means don't expect much of a discount. Pioneer is expensive, but honestly Sony is no better than Pioneer when it comes to jacking up the price. The Kuro's are a bargain compared to this TV. The Sony may very well be better than the Kuro and I'm certain it won't have the brightness limitations that the Kuro has, but it'll cost ya! :)

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665532062

The Pioneers are no longer constrained in this regard, with ControlCals ISFccc interface. They are capable of going up to 60fl, without sacrificing PQ like other manufacturers from both ends of the spectrum.

What is Clarity's website? I'm assuming that is a forum sponsor - I would like to check their prices on some of the other sets that I have mentioned.

Please note due to manufacturer restrictions not all products can be listed.

Ok, well, I spent about 2.5 hours tonight looking at TVs. Luckily, there are several smaller stores near me that have the TVs set up in room-like environments, so I don't have to rely on what I see in the big box stores.

Anyway, what I determined is that I can not find a TV that I like as much as my XBR800 CRT. However, given the fact that I have to choose one in order to have a bigger TV, I made the following observations. I apologize in advance for the randomness of my thoughts, but I am just typing everything that I am thinking to make sure we are all on the same page. Please feel free to comment on any or all of my rambling thoughts.

- In the first store I went to, in one of the rooms they had the 52XBR5, the 60" Elite Pioneer, and the 52" Panasonic 800 set up across from each other. I got the salesman to put the feed on each to the nightly news so that I could view the TVs on something other than the Blu-ray loop they play. For HD TV viewing, I actually preferred the look of the LCD over the plasma. However, when I had him switch to ESPN, I could definitely see picture lag on the LCD and the motion handling on the Elite definitely shined. The Panasonic never looked good, and I think it has horrible aesthetics, so it is off my list.

- The nice thing about the set up that they had was that it recreated lighting settings similar to a living room. I immediately noticed that I could see my own reflection in the plasmas and could not in the XBR5, even with the TV on.

- Out in the main showroom, they had the 46" XBR5 hooked directly to a blu-ray player with some movie playing. The lag on the characters movement was so bad, I could barely watch. I'm talking I could see a motion trail when they moved their heads quickly. It was so bad that I'm thinking something must have been hooked up incorrectly or some setting was off. Someone please tell me that is the case, as the 52" on the nightly news looked infinitely better and I can't understand why their would be such a difference.

- In the second store that I went to, I looked at the pro-110. The pro-110 was in a completely dark room, and I must say, it did look impressive. However, I'm still not sure I want to spend that much on a 50" TV. In addition, the sales guy there kinda scared me away from plasmas given my tv viewing habits (ESPN and CNN tickers on the bottom a lot). It was clear that he did know what he was talking about, and even conceeded that plasmas have a much better picture, but said that I really should think about the possibility of burn in. I know that several people have said this is not an issue anymore, but psychologically, I don't want to have to be that conscience of my tv viewing habits.

- As I was comparing features, I discovered that RS232 controls are not standard on all TVs. Instead, several have moved on to an hdmi control system that allows the tv to control other components. However, this does not help me as I use a PC-based software program to control all of my components via RS232. While this is not a critical component, it is definitely something on my "wish list". On the same subject, according to the Kuro's manuals, they have a RS232 port, but it is says it is only to be used for "service". Does this mean that I can not use it for control?

- I viewed the new XBR6, and while I do not like it's aesthetics as much as the XBR5, it looked to have a better picture to me. However, at the same time, I did not see a huge difference over the W4100 series, so I don't see value in spending the extra premium for the XBR label.

- While at circuit city and best buy, I decided that I like the samsung 860 LCD and the 760 plasma. Both of these can be within my price range, so now I just need to find a place to view them in a home-like setting with something other than a HD loop playing.

Anyway, I have no idea what my conclusion is based on all of my above random thoughts. I think I am no closer to a decision than before I went looking, except for the fact that I decided I am not buying a Panasonic as I don't like looking at it. So, I will attempt to summarize:

Plasma:
-Better motion handling
-More natural looking picture

LCD:
- Vibrant picture
- No risk of burn in /IR
- No reflection off the screen

Conclusion: Confused.

GREAT write-up! Very objective and informative and it seems you've learned a TON.

As you noticed that no technology is perfect, but you gotta see which benefits weigh heavier for you. It seems as though an LCD would be a better fit for you based on your viewing habits.

Indeed it's confusing as to which you should get!

GREAT write-up! Very objective and informative and it seems you've learned a TON.

As you noticed that no technology is perfect, but you gotta see which benefits weigh heavier for you. It seems as though an LCD would be a better fit for you based on your viewing habits.

Indeed it's confusing as to which you should get!

I think I am in agreement with you. I am currently leaning 60/40 towards LCD if I can find one with decent motion handling. That is my main concern with LCDs, just as my main concern with plasmas is that I am going to be overly concerned with IR/Burn-in.

Quite honestly, had I not seen that 46XBR5 running off of the blu-ray player that looked terrible, I would have bought the XBR5. I had already been thinking that I could probably get a current model year's TV with better performance for around the same price or less, and this pretty much confirmed that I should definitely look. (Unless someone can vouch that there was probably something wrong with their setup.)

As for LCDs, this one caught my interest: http://www.samsung.com/us/system/consumer/product/2008/08/09/ln52a860s2fxza/LN52A860_FINAL.pdf

Has anyone had experience with Samsung's Auto-Motion Plus 120hz? Here is the description from their website: Auto Motion Plus 120 Hz™: Advanced
processing that reduces blur and enhances image detail when viewing fast motion video sequences.

- the sales guy there kinda scared me away from plasmas given my tv viewing habits (ESPN and CNN tickers on the bottom a lot). It was clear that he did know what he was talking about, and even conceeded that plasmas have a much better picture, but said that I really should think about the possibility of burn in. I know that several people have said this is not an issue anymore, but psychologically, I don't want to have to be that conscience of my tv viewing habits.

-

There are literally thousands and thousands of people who come to AVS worried about this exact same thing who end up getting a Kuro.
I have yet to see ONE verifyable case of permanent burn-in on a Pioneer Kuro Plasma. NOT ONE!!!

Unless you down right abuse the set on purpose, you should give burn-in no more of you attention. period.

Patrick, you mention many reasons why not to own the 5020, I'm dciding between that and the Elite 50 111FD so any reson you may have would be important to me

If you have the money and like adjusting things an elite would be a very good choice, if you like the Kuro and aren't too picky about color the 5020 is a good choice. There are a lot of ajustments lost, you are pretty much stuck with what Pioneer sets the mode at other than basic contrast, shapness, tint and color. They even took away the color temp! However for most people (including me) they give a good enough picture out of the box and can have some further calibration done in movie mode. Don't listen to these people going on about yellowish whites, TVs grayscales never track identically you might get one at 6400 like you might get one at 6100k. So the "look" of white will differ TV to TV and if your grayscale is off in movie mode like some of these posters you can always opt for a calibration and still get off cheaper than with an elite.

After calibation a non elite will be very close to an elite other than the color points, you might actually like the color space the non elite uses better so you might want to try to see one. Of course you have the option to make an Elite look like a non elite but that would be kind of silly considering the money you spent.

cavalier, the Auto Motion Plus (AMP) is the same as Sony's Motion Enhancer. They are both algorithms that do frame interpolation. Frame interpolation is just a way of doing guess work to fill in the missing frames between actual frames to allow for smoother playback. Smooth playback is a novel idea, but for movies it makes them very un-filmlike. Also, one of the other big drawbacks from it is it produces unwanted artifacts. It's taking information that comes from frames before or after and every-so-often it "guesses" wrong.

Some are a fan of the AMP or ME, but most are not, especially after the novelty of smooth motion wears off.

cavalier, the Auto Motion Plus (AMP) is the same as Sony's Motion Enhancer. They are both algorithms that do frame interpolation. Frame interpolation is just a way of doing guess work to fill in the missing frames between actual frames to allow for smoother playback. Smooth playback is a novel idea, but for movies it makes them very un-filmlike. Also, one of the other big drawbacks from it is it produces unwanted artifacts. It's taking information that comes from frames before or after and every-so-often it "guesses" wrong.

Some are a fan of the AMP or ME, but most are not, especially after the novelty of smooth motion wears off.

thats true,
When I got a samsung LCD, at first it gave me a "WoW" effect.
I thought "man this makes motion look great!"
But after watching for a while and learning more about what is going on, the negative effects like the "Clear Vapors" or the "Soap Opera Effect" started to rear thier ugly head.
The big misconception is that this is how motion is supposed to look.
I have heard some LCD fanboys go as far as say that " some people don't like the AMP effects because it makes movies look to real, and some people can't handle the reality of it " lol

I had better luck with the Sony LCD. It seemed like the Motionflow was a little better than the AMP feature of the sammy. Much smoother and less artifacts for sure.
I was happy with my Sony for a while and loved it.
Until I watched a good plasma for a while. I sat and watched the 5010 for about an hour and went home. When I got home the motion of the XBR4 was almost unbearable. I noticed the vapors and motion blurr like I never had before. In fact, I was down right pissed off and thought something was wrong with my XBR4.
I had been exposed to great motion performance without the use of enhansers or add-ons.

So I decided to go buy the 5080 and bring it home and set it up next to my XBR4 Sony. The 5080 not only measured up to the XBR4 in all the other key areas, but it surpassed it in pretty much every category.
Which needless to say, took me by surprise. I was amazed that a less expensive 720p plasma could out-perform a top sony 1080p XBR LCD with all the new add-ons and features.
So I sold the XBR4 and kept the 5080.

thats true,
When I got a samsung LCD, at first it gave me a "WoW" effect.
I thought "man this makes motion look great!"
But after watching for a while and learning more about what is going on, the negative effects like the "Clear Vapors" or the "Soap Opera Effect" started to rear thier ugly head.
The big misconception is that this is how motion is supposed to look.
I have heard some LCD fanboys go as far as say that " some people don't like the AMP effects because it makes movies look to real, and some people can't handle the reality of it " lol

I had better luck with the Sony LCD. It seemed like the Motionflow was a little better than the AMP feature of the sammy. Much smoother and less artifacts for sure.
I was happy with my Sony for a while and loved it.
Until I watched a good plasma for a while. I sat and watched the 5010 for about an hour and went home. When I got home the motion of the XBR4 was almost unbearable. I noticed the vapors and motion blurr like I never had before. In fact, I was down right pissed off and thought something was wrong with my XBR4.
I had been exposed to great motion performance without the use of enhansers or add-ons.

So I decided to go buy the 5080 and bring it home and set it up next to my XBR4 Sony. The 5080 not only measured up to the XBR4 in all the other key areas, but it surpassed it in pretty much every category.
Which needless to say, took me by surprise. I was amazed that a less expensive 720p plasma could out-perform a top sony XBR LCD with all the new add-ons and features.
So I sold the XBR4 and kept the 5080.

Hmm, so I wonder if that could be the difference between the two XBRs I viewed. The one that was playing the blu-ray had the exact symptoms that you described above - perhaps the effect of the MotionFlow?

Hmm, so I wonder if that could be the difference between the two XBRs I viewed. The one that was playing the blu-ray had the exact symptoms that you described above - perhaps the effect of the MotionFlow?

Could be.
Motion flow and AMP cause artifacts and issues.
But turning them off causes more issues (like motion blurring/smearing).

So you kinda have to deal with one or the other. (at least for now, with the amount of R&D going into advancements for LCD, its just a matter of time before they start getting much better with motion. In fact they already are getting better to some extent)

With plasmas the motion is superb.
This is why you rarely ever see responce times in thier specifications. Plasmas simply don't have issues with responce times like LCD does.
You have to remember, LCD was not created to be used for Video and fast motion content. LCD was created to be text based for computers. And they are the best for computer use hands down.

With plasmas the motion is superb.
This is why you rarely ever see responce times in thier specifications. Plasmas simply don't have issues with responce times like LCD does.
You have to remember, LCD was not created to be used for Video and fast motion content. LCD was created to be text based for computers. And they are the best for computer use hands down.

I don't know about that, motion is much better on a plasma but not perfect. A lot of people see phosphor lag (myself included) While I rarely see it and it's nothing like motion blur it is still an issue, at least on the Panasonic 85U I had and to a lesser extent the 5020.

Well, after some "soul searching", I've decided to hold off on purchasing a new TV for a few reasons:
1) I love the picture on my 34XBR800. Until a TV comes out that gives me that picture quality without motion lag or image retention concerns, I don't want to take what I perceive as a step back. With technology advancing so quickly, I believe that something will be offered next summer that fits my requirements.
2) My only reason for upgrading was to have a bigger picture from a slimmer TV. However, since I do have an overhead projector in the same room, I do still have the ability for a huge picture.
3) I am considering several other system upgrades that I believe I will get more ROI right now, including upgrading my projector screen to an electric drop, and rack mounting my equipment.

Until a TV comes out that gives me that picture quality without motion lag or image retention concerns,.

You should have no concerns about motion lag or image retention with the 5020.

I don't want to take what I perceive as a step back. .

going to the 5020 would be far far far from a step back.

Well, after some "soul searching", I've decided to hold off on purchasing a new TV for a few reasons:
1) I love the picture on my 34XBR800. Until a TV comes out that gives me that picture quality without motion lag or image retention concerns, I don't want to take what I perceive as a step back. With technology advancing so quickly, I believe that something will be offered next summer that fits my requirements.
2) My only reason for upgrading was to have a bigger picture from a slimmer TV. However, since I do have an overhead projector in the same room, I do still have the ability for a huge picture.
3) I am considering several other system upgrades that I believe I will get more ROI right now, including upgrading my projector screen to an electric drop, and rack mounting my equipment.

I had a CRT like you, not an XBR but a 2005 Panny. They are 1080i displays, motion is actually worse on CRTs IMHO. Not to mention they have the same concerns about burn in. Blacks are also worse on a CRT in most normal situations because of blooming and overshoot. I don't know what the rest of you gear is like but your TV needs an upgrade bad, those HD CRTs can barely be called "HD" displays. They are too small, overscan too much of the image, have convergence issues and geometry problems too. Keep it if you like but you've never seen HD until you see it on something bigger with more resolution. We are past the days of the CRT being the reference for displays, that time has come and gone.

I don't know what the rest of you gear is like but your TV needs an upgrade bad, ... you've never seen HD until you see it on something bigger with more resolution.

I have a Sony VPL-VW60 shooting onto a 106" Stewart fixed screen. I'm pretty sure that I have experienced HD.


They are 1080i displays, motion is actually worse on CRTs IMHO. Not to mention they have the same concerns about burn in. Blacks are also worse on a CRT in most normal situations because of blooming and overshoot. ... those HD CRTs can barely be called "HD" displays. They are too small, overscan too much of the image, have convergence issues and geometry problems too.

I appreciate your opinion, but I don't agree with it. Versus the LCDs I went and looked at, motion is infinitely better on a CRT. But none of this really matters as I already own this TV and have been very pleased with it for the past 5+ years. At any rate, everyone has been very helpful, and in 6-12 months when I choose to upgrade, I will once again ask for opinions. Until then, I'm going to put the money toward some middle atlantic racks to get my amps, media servers, signal distribution equipment, processors, etc out of my current homemade media cabinet.

going to the 5020 would be far far far from a step back. I do agree with you that the Kuros are nice displays, and they will definitely be on my short list in the future.

I have a Sony VPL-VW60 shooting onto a 106" Stewart fixed screen. I'm pretty sure that I have experienced HD.




I appreciate your opinion, but I don't agree with it. Versus the LCDs I went and looked at, motion is infinitely better on a CRT. But none of this really matters as I already own this TV and have been very pleased with it for the past 5+ years. At any rate, everyone has been very helpful, and in 6-12 months when I choose to upgrade, I will once again ask for opinions. Until then, I'm going to put the money toward some middle atlantic racks to get my amps, media servers, signal distribution equipment, processors, etc out of my current homemade media cabinet.

I do agree with you that the Kuros are nice displays, and they will definitely be on my short list in the future.
I did ask about your gear didn't I? No need to try to patronize because you have a projector. Well then obviously you're right you can hold off, you're still wrong about motion, any plasma with 900 lines (or the Samsung 950 LCD) will spank an interlaced CRT. I still say CRTs are past their prime, at least you have something decent to fall back on. I don't understand how someone who uses a PJ could find the problems with fixed pixel displays annoying, those are much more finicky beasts that need a perfectly dark room and have recently fallen behind the technology curve (at realistic prices under 10k) compared to the best LCDs and Plasmas. When I can buy a PJ that can give me as flexible an image as a TV call me, until then I'll wait for a 70"+ plasma or LCD

I did ask about your gear didn't I? No need to try to patronize because you have a projector.
Not patronizing - you asked, so I answered.

you're still wrong about motion, any plasma with 900 lines (or the Samsung 950 LCD) will spank an interlaced CRT. I still say CRTs are past their prime, at least you have something decent to fall back on.

This is purely subjective. We just happen to think differently. I just happen to also have several reviews on my side as well. These came from cnet:

"CRT TVs may be bulky, but then you have one of the best pictures you can get from a video display device. The truth is that not even the latest top plasmas can rival conventional cathode ray tube displays for black depth and contrast, while nothing beats a high resolution flat-screen CRT display tube for picture clarity.

In particular, today's true flat-screen high-resolution cathode ray tubes are capable of producing crisp, vibrant images of exceptional quality. In addition, the CRT TV is easy to set-up, and will work well in a variety of locations and light conditions.

This means that if your screen size requirements fall within the display size limitations of CRT TVs, and if picture quality is of prime importance, then a CRT television may still represent a suitable and ultimately, a more affordable solution than the latest expensive plasmas and LCD TVs."

"High-end tube TVs can give a great-looking picture. CRTs are still the kings of black level, a term used to describe the quality and the depth of black, the darker the better. Direct-view tube sets look good from any angle, so unlike flat-panel LCDs and rear-projection sets, the picture quality doesn't change depending on where you sit."


I don't understand how someone who uses a PJ could find the problems with fixed pixel displays annoying, those are much more finicky beasts that need a perfectly dark room and have recently fallen behind the technology curve (at realistic prices under 10k) compared to the best LCDs and Plasmas. When I can buy a PJ that can give me as flexible an image as a TV call me, until then I'll wait for a 70"+ plasma or LCD

Ok, PJs do require the room to be dark, which is why I don't try to watch it during the day. Your point? However, in their element, projectors look fantastic, whereas I am still not sold on the current TV offerings, regardless of watching at day or night. You can't honestly tell me that when you're watching a movie in a dark room, that you prefer to watch a 50" versus something over 100 inches? I personally don't understand why anyone would spend $20k on a 70+" TV (using the pricing of the XBR7 as an example), when you can get a phenomenal projector and screen for well under half of that.

Up until now, this thread has been very helpful and informative. Now that I have had a chance to respond :D, I suggest we stop derailing it with our argument on CRTs, as it adds no value to others who may read this thread during their own research.

Ok, PJs do require the room to be dark, which is why I don't try to watch it during the day. Your point? However, in their element, projectors look fantastic, whereas I am still not sold on the current TV offerings, regardless of watching at day or night. You can't honestly tell me that when you're watching a movie in a dark room, that you prefer to watch a 50" versus something over 100 inches? I personally don't understand why anyone would spend $20k on a 70+" TV (using the pricing of the XBR7 as an example), when you can get a phenomenal projector and screen for well under half of that.

Up until now, this thread has been very helpful and informative. Now that I have had a chance to respond :D, I suggest we stop derailing it with our argument on CRTs, as it adds no value to others who may read this thread during their own research.

Would you understand paying ~$24,000 for a 50" (http://www.bang-olufsen.com/page.asp?id=238) then?

Would you understand paying ~$24,000 for a 50" (http://www.bang-olufsen.com/page.asp?id=238) then?

I wouldn't pay $24k for anything that doesn't have four wheels and an engine.

I wouldn't pay $24k for anything that doesn't have four wheels and an engine.


lol