Will plasma have this effect or LCD?
And if so then which ones?

?? What exactly are you talking about? Any good Plasma,LCD,CRT or front projector can produce a beautiful HD picture. With a good source it can seem to pop off the screen.

Many around here call that the "Soap Opera Effect" and claim not to like it because it is "too real" and "not film-like". As if they wanted their home theaters to mimic the 120-year-old look of 35mm film.

This effect is the exclusive domain of 120Hz LCD screens.

As if they wanted their home theaters to mimic the 120-year-old look of 35mm film.
.
it it ain't broke.... ;)

I don't think he is referring to the artificial enhancement of frame interpolation. I think he is referring to depth, which is reproduced by good black levels.

To the OP, there a few panels that can provide "depth". You just have to do some research.

Many around here call that the "Soap Opera Effect" and claim not to like it because it is "too real" and "not film-like". As if they wanted their home theaters to mimic the 120-year-old look of 35mm film.

This effect is the exclusive domain of 120Hz LCD screens.

The exclusive domain you speak of is primarly that of the Samsungs "AMP", which set to high, can be extremely "clean". Problem with this is, it introduces artifacting, and loss of detail. I have read claims of it making people "sea sick".

?? What exactly are you talking about? Any good Plasma,LCD,CRT or front projector can produce a beautiful HD picture. With a good source it can seem to pop off the screen.Right. It's more the source quality than anything else.

that 3d popout is the DEPT and 3d look that few very few plasma achive, pioneer's (thanks to black levels) make you feel that the image is 3d with depth...

without going much further if you want the best tv that will give you that feel get a pioneer.

the PRO-111 is on sale right now with our local sponsers like roman o or robert @ ve... so is the PDP-5020.

good luck

No, you DON't need a $5,000 plasma TV to see the 3D effect being discussed. The 120Hz Samsung LCDs at $2,000 do so just fine, producing "realer than real" (a ridiculous term) images that exceed film's quality, ending up looking like a window into another world. But you are not supposed to like it, according to the film buffs here - anything beyond film quality is not to be acknowledged, not to be admired, not to be desired.

I think you are also supposed to like the motion judder you get from a 60Hz display. As far as I can tell, this present video quality is supposed to be what one likes forever, and any further image quality improvements are to be rejected. They say it's a matter of taste.

If you don't agree, go look at a 120Hz Samsung before you spend big bucks on a PDP.

the 3D popout effect is from high contrast.

In bright showrooms, only the bright LCD's can produce enough light for percieved contrast.

For true high contrast in a normally lit room, only plasmas can produce it now.

Soon, hopefully, OLED will take over though. It can do it in both environments.

No, you DON't need a $5,000 plasma TV to see the 3D effect being discussed. The 120Hz Samsung LCDs at $2,000 do so just fine, producing "realer than real" (a ridiculous term) images that exceed film's quality, ending up looking like a window into another world. But you are not supposed to like it, according to the film buffs here - anything beyond film quality is not to be acknowledged, not to be admired, not to be desired.

I think you are also supposed to like the motion judder you get from a 60Hz display. As far as I can tell, this present video quality is supposed to be what one likes forever, and any further image quality improvements are to be rejected. They say it's a matter of taste.

If you don't agree, go look at a 120Hz Samsung before you spend big bucks on a PDP.


A decent 52" 120Hz Samsung LCD costs more than a much better 50" Samsung Plasma.

Example Sammsung LN52A650 costs $400 more than the PN50A650 and the PN50A650 has much much better Picture Quality and Contrast

A decent 52" 120Hz Samsung LCD costs more than a much better 50" Samsung Plasma.

Example Sammsung LN52A650 costs $400 more than the PN50A650 and the PN50A650 has much much better Picture Quality and Contrast

Apples and Oranges. I have NEVER seen this "window effect" on ANY PDP, they all look like 60Hz displays - no better than film quality resolution, motion judder from telecine processing of 24fps film for a 60Hz display, lower brightness and colors that are less than saturated.

Take a 120Hz Samsung, feed it with 1080p24 source, set AMP = HIGH, and observe. In well-photographed scenes, the TV screen becomes a window pane looking into another world.

People keep telling me I'm not supposed to like this. People tell me that if I watch carefully, I can see artifacts. People tell me if it looks BETTER than film, it must be considered BAD.

I can't help it, I enjoy it. I especially enjoy the reactions of people who have never before seen this so-called "soap opera effect". I've never told any of these people they are not supposed to like SOE. I then assist them in buying a display and a Blu-Ray player. Consequently they are recruiting friends and relatives into the 120Hz LCD camp.

On three occasions, I have assisted people who already own PDPs in upgrading such displays to 120Hz LCDs. I am encouraging these folks to recycle the PDPs with their older DVD players in dimmer bedroom applications where their video quality limitations are less serious.

By the way, I've never considered Samsung among the best PDPs. The Pioneers are the top of the heap (for anybody in the market for a $4000 50" display), and the Panasonics still look better than the Samsungs to me, even with the horrible flicker problems they have with 24Hz sources.

In any case, I don't attribute the improvements to video quality to anything related to contrast. In a dark room, a PDP has better contrast. In a normally lighted room, an LCD with a matte-finish screen has better contrast. Instead I believe that one benefit of AMP processing is that a video frame synthesized from two actual source frames has less blur than the source frame itself.

The fact is the OP has never clarified this "3D" effect he is looking for. I think he should ignore most of the "advice" on this thread and go look at displays for himself to see what he likes best.

Obviously some people here like to push their preferences (ie what they bought) as if they are unquestioned facts. But they can't tell you what your preferences are.

Are you looking for something that makes everything look a cartoon or shot with a videocam? A high-end lcd is what you're looking for...but it won't give you the best pic for most content.

People keep telling me I'm not supposed to like this. People tell me that if I watch carefully, I can see artifacts. People tell me if it looks BETTER than film, it must be considered BAD.

I can't help it, I enjoy it. I especially enjoy the reactions of people who have never before seen this so-called "soap opera effect". I've never told any of these people they are not supposed to like SOE. I then assist them in buying a display and a Blu-Ray player. Consequently they are recruiting friends and relatives into the 120Hz LCD camp.
You don't have to look closely, it's ALL artifacts... i've never seen motion in real life look like AMP or motionflow. I expect you'll see this gimmick on plasmas soon enough.

You don't have to look closely, it's ALL artifacts... i've never seen motion in real life look like AMP or motionflow. I expect you'll see this gimmick on plasmas soon enough.

You just don't know what you are talking about. How can a video frame that is 99% the same as the frame before and the frame after, be considered in any way "all artifacts"? How can a moving object which is positioned by the AMP processor as halfway between the positions in the frame before and the frame after, be considered an "artifact"?

I have now owned the 120Hz set since December 2007, ten months. In that time, possibly three dozen people have marvelled at 120Hz performance - the benefits are immediately and completely obvious to anyone who views the image.

In that same 10 months nobody has ever noticed an "artifact". One of my regular movie buddies had heard about the infamous TBE (triple ball effect) so after the movie he stayed and I demonstrated how you could see such - for all of 3 seconds total in a two hour film.

Bottom line is that the benefits of 120Hz over 60Hz in a display are plain for all to see. The artifacts are something nobody can even notice until they are taught how.

You just don't know what you are talking about. How can a video frame that is 99% the same as the frame before and the frame after, be considered in any way "all artifacts"? How can a moving object which is positioned by the AMP processor as halfway between the positions in the frame before and the frame after, be considered an "artifact"?

I have now owned the 120Hz set since December 2007, ten months. In that time, possibly three dozen people have marvelled at 120Hz performance - the benefits are immediately and completely obvious to anyone who views the image.

In that same 10 months nobody has ever noticed an "artifact". One of my regular movie buddies had heard about the infamous TBE (triple ball effect) so after the movie he stayed and I demonstrated how you could see such - for all of 3 seconds total in a two hour film.

Bottom line is that the benefits of 120Hz over 60Hz in a display are plain for all to see. The artifacts are something nobody can even notice until they are taught how.

You and Gus should get together and do infomercials. :D

You do realize that 120HZ has no relationship with PQ OTHER than motion resolution/getting rid of blur. Depth is a completely different thing caused by deep black levels and a high CR. I don't think I've ever heard anybody say anything how 120HZ provides more depth or "pop"... Or anything to do with static picture quality.

Many around here call that the "Soap Opera Effect" and claim not to like it because it is "too real" and "not film-like". As if they wanted their home theaters to mimic the 120-year-old look of 35mm film.

This effect is the exclusive domain of 120Hz LCD screens.

It is aweful...but it is motion enhancers and horrible interpolation that you are talking about.
-imo

You do realize that 120HZ has no relationship with PQ OTHER than motion resolution/getting rid of blur. Depth is a completely different thing caused by deep black levels and a high CR. I don't think I've ever heard anybody say anything how 120HZ provides more depth or "pop"... Or anything to do with static picture quality.

To the contrary. The "realer than real" or "soap opera effect" or whatever you want to call it is the result of 120Hz display plus AMP (frame interpolation). It is so convincing that you are fooled into thinking the TV is a window into another world. The wife and I noticed the effect immediately at the store, then were blown away when we watched the the BBC "Planet Earth" series in HD-DVD at 1080p24.

By contrast any PDP I have ever seen looks like a dirty piece of glass between you and the picture. Deep black levels and high CR can occur in a PDP only in a dimly lit room. In a brightly lit room, PDP's cannot get bright enough - and if you did crank them that high, you'd lose the advantage of deep black and high CR, and risk permanent damage from "torch mode".

Too many people in this Forum buy a display based upon specs that can only be measured in total darkness, and forget that displays must be used in real rooms that people live in - high ambient light levels, that is.

To the contrary. The "realer than real" or "soap opera effect" or whatever you want to call it is the result of 120Hz display plus AMP (frame interpolation). It is so convincing that you are fooled into thinking the TV is a window into another world. The wife and I noticed the effect immediately at the store, then were blown away when we watched the the BBC "Planet Earth" series in HD-DVD at 1080p24.

By contrast any PDP I have ever seen looks like a dirty piece of glass between you and the picture. Deep black levels and high CR can occur in a PDP only in a dimly lit room. In a brightly lit room, PDP's cannot get bright enough - and if you did crank them that high, you'd lose the advantage of deep black and high CR, and risk permanent damage from "torch mode".

Too many people in this Forum buy a display based upon specs that can only be measured in total darkness, and forget that displays must be used in real rooms that people live in - high ambient light levels, that is.Since you seem to know it all, what causes the appearance of depth on a static image... say on a slideshow??

P.S. >50FL seems enough for daytime viewing IMO.

P.P.S. I thought we were talking about depth... Not the soap opera effect of AMP (which I can't stand)

P.P.P.S When I said it doesn't have anything to do with motion blur control, that implies that it causes the soap opera effect. That effect only happens on motion, therefore it has to do with the controlling of the motion blur. Basically I was saying it had nothing to do with static PQ.

To the original question... HOW does 120HZ cause depth in a flat panel TV.

Gary first of all its not a $5,000 tv lol! street price is ALWAYS less oh and note that i stated the PDP-5020 which is much less in street price then the elite as well. and 120hz has NOTHING to do with 3D depth, and you seem to push 120hz either just to validate your tv or only god knows why


No, you DON't need a $5,000 plasma TV to see the 3D effect being discussed. The 120Hz Samsung LCDs at $2,000 do so just fine, producing "realer than real" (a ridiculous term) images that exceed film's quality, ending up looking like a window into another world. But you are not supposed to like it, according to the film buffs here - anything beyond film quality is not to be acknowledged, not to be admired, not to be desired.

I think you are also supposed to like the motion judder you get from a 60Hz display. As far as I can tell, this present video quality is supposed to be what one likes forever, and any further image quality improvements are to be rejected. They say it's a matter of taste.

If you don't agree, go look at a 120Hz Samsung before you spend big bucks on a PDP.


Thank you rykerabel! yes the Hhigh contrast is what makes the depth although if plasma dont get hit from ambient light it will still rock, otherwise if it hits some kind of light then it could wash out, of course results vary depending on the ambient lighting and tv/brand models etc etc

the 3D popout effect is from high contrast.

In bright showrooms, only the bright LCD's can produce enough light for percieved contrast.

For true high contrast in a normally lit room, only plasmas can produce it now.

Soon, hopefully, OLED will take over though. It can do it in both environments.

Thank you coltsfreak yeah thats what im saying what does 120hz have to do with 3D depth?;)

You do realize that 120HZ has no relationship with PQ OTHER than motion resolution/getting rid of blur. Depth is a completely different thing caused by deep black levels and a high CR. I don't think I've ever heard anybody say anything how 120HZ provides more depth or "pop"... Or anything to do with static picture quality.


Oh and i dont know why gary pushes lcd/120hz more.....

oh well

I own the 120Hz set. I watch the 120Hz set. I observe the SOE which is the exclusive domain of a 120Hz HDTV with frame interpolation. The images that are realer than those that film-based material can present are the entire reason I was attracted to the 120Hz technology. It's a combination of the brighter image of an LCD, with the better color saturation of an LCD, with the 120Hz and frame interpolation. In my experience, the 3D effect we are talking about, is simply not at all associated with black levels or contrast ratios. Sorry, but you are off base.

Some people seem to have a philosophical objection to the IDEA of frame interpolation. That's a tragedy because for the first time in 120-odd years we have a display that can best film.

To those of you who are not afraid to embrace a new idea and who want the best image quality possible, spend some time with a quality 120Hz HDTV. For those who just can't stand the idea of it, buy another 60Hz HDTV to use after your present set is retired - while they can still be had.

I now believe that the 120hz scam is really a mind control scheme. How else to explain the 120hz fundamentalism of Gary :(

I also briefly owned a Panasonic 50" plasma, and I wanted to like it. I returned it because of unacceptable reflections in my brightly lit room, and because of the unacceptable motion judder that is typical - and unavoidable - in a display that refreshes at 60Hz.

Plasma owners want to believe that they have the "best" display. They are unwilling (or unable) to admit that there are ambient lighting conditions and viewer preferences that overcome the advantages that a plasma admittedly does enjoy in some viewing environments. To the extent that they jump on a member request for the basic LCD/Plasma choice and reccomend plasma without finding out how and where the set will be used, they are giving bad advice.

Anybody who has not spent enough time (tens of hours) viewing a 120Hz set has not yet overcome the legacy of a lifetime of viewing 60Hz displays, and has not learned to appreciate that their own tastes include a technological limitation to video quality that results from the way they grew up viewing CRT televisions. I tell you that in every single case, those who view such a set long enough eventually "get it", which means they figure this out. It doesn't matter what they own before they "get it", they become 120Hz converts. This is without exception in my experience, with friends and relatives viewing my properly calibrated HDTV and clean HD-DVD and Blu-Ray and ATSC sources.

That's why I talk about this topic. To overcome the legions of bad advice from somebody who goes to a store either determined to prefer plasma, or determined not to like a 120Hz display because of a preconception about interpolated video frames not being "real" and therefore bad. Pretty much these were the prior owners of plasma displays - anyways in my experience, prior LCD owners are less resistent to the very idea that a 120Hz LCD could be significantly better than what they own.

To those of you still on the fence - get down to the video store, and lose those pre-conceptions.

Gary you are a riot. You really do sound like a preacher.

I especially like your absolute statements: "I tell you that in every single case..." Well, except all the cases we hear about right here on AVS where people got those 120 Hz sets and took 'em back because they didn't like them.

Have you ever considered that maybe some of your friends and family just tell you they like it because you're preaching to them and they just want to watch TV in peace? :p

I also like this paragraph:
"Plasma owners want to believe that they have the "best" display. They are unwilling (or unable) to admit that there are ambient lighting conditions and viewer preferences that overcome the advantages that a plasma admittedly does enjoy in some viewing environments. To the extent that they jump on a member request for the basic LCD/Plasma choice and reccomend plasma without finding out how and where the set will be used, they are giving bad advice."

Allow me to rewrite that:
LCD owners want to believe that they have the "best" display. They are unwilling (or unable) to admit that there are ambient lighting conditions and viewer preferences that overcome the advantages that an LCD admittedly does enjoy in some viewing environments. To the extent that they jump on a member request for the basic LCD/Plasma choice and reccomend LCD without finding out how and where the set will be used, they are giving bad advice.

Eh, whatever. In the next year or two plasmas with higher refresh rates will be out and you'll need a new technology to tout. :eek:

jeff

Some people seem to have a philosophical objection to the IDEA of frame interpolation. That's a tragedy because for the first time in 120-odd years we have a display that can best film.

To those of you who are not afraid to embrace a new idea and who want the best image quality possible, spend some time with a quality 120Hz HDTV. For those who just can't stand the idea of it, buy another 60Hz HDTV to use after your present set is retired - while they can still be had.
I own a 120hz TV. AMP looks awful... unfortunately I need the other benefits of a 120hz TV. That was my first reaction to first seeing the effect in store, all philosophy and principle aside, and I still completely don't get people who enjoy it. I mean, if you like it, good for you, but you seem to think that everyone who doesn't like AMP has some kind of insidious reason for being in denial of the inherent superiority of motion interpolation... I simply hate the way it looks :eek:

...To those of you still on the fence - get down to the video store, and lose those pre-conceptions.

The "pre-conceptions" people have on these forums are usually born out of real experience.

I do think it is important to look at all the information out there, then look in person and decide for yourself. There are certainly advantages to each TV out there, but that doesn't mean the disadvantages are not there or that they don't matter. The overall package is what matters most, and personal preferences have a lot to do with which overall package is best for each consumer.

Contrary to what many people here try to imply, there is no such thing as a perfect or best HDTV, LCD or plasma. You really need to take people who make such definitive claims with a grain of salt. Even the very best 120hz LCDs are far from perfect and have a number of disadvantages versus plasma. And vice versa.

And I will not dispute that. Note that the commentators immediately before you are less tolerent and more opinionated, in spite of the fact that they have little exposure to an important new advance in video quality.

I agree that AMP is a matter of taste - I happen to like the ultra-realistic look. I happen to also like the true motion smoothness that results from displaying 24/30/60fps source on a 120Hz display. But many here would deny themselves this technological advance because of a preconception that plasma is better.

I don't find it so, and I built my first Home Theater in 1984, and I've been critically evaluating display technology, and attending real theaters, for a long time.

Hello there, long time reader, first time poster :

Motion smoothness by frame interpolation requires some time to get used to. I can't imagine someone liking that effect within a few minutes in a store. It just looks weird and unwatchable especially for movies.
If my parents didn't buy that kind of set I would probably be still against that effect today. But not only I got used to it but now I miss it when I'm watching movies on my Panasonic plasma.
Sorry for my english but I would say motion interpolation adds "life" to the picture.

I bought a plasma three years ago because black level was even more important to me, as I watch movies late at night without any lights on. Now that LCDs have improved their black level performance I'd like to have both very deep blacks and motion interpolation smoothness, but I wonder if any upcoming set is capable of that. Upcoming LED backlit LCDs could do it, such as the Sony XBR8.

I agree that AMP is a matter of taste - I happen to like the ultra-realistic look. I happen to also like the true motion smoothness that results from displaying 24/30/60fps source on a 120Hz display. But many here would deny themselves this technological advance because of a preconception that plasma is better.


The look may be ultra realistic to you, but not to me....I have a lot of experience playing with AMP.

It comes across as a bit arrogant (I am not calling you arrogant, just the tone) to suggest that people are denying themselves this technology because of any preconception. Logically, this suggests that other peoples' tastes are generally clouded by preconception. AMP is famously "Love it or hate it". I don't hate it, but I do not think that the look is more "realistic" than other good products out there that do not use this technology.

My point is that you seem to present your preferences as fact....while discounting others preferences as clouded by preconceptions and/or justifying their purchase. What's to say that it is not your judgement that is clouded by preference and it is your mind that is tricking you into believing that what you see is "realistic"?

I own the 120Hz set. I watch the 120Hz set. I observe the SOE which is the exclusive domain of a 120Hz HDTV with frame interpolation. The images that are realer than those that film-based material can present are the entire reason I was attracted to the 120Hz technology. It's a combination of the brighter image of an LCD, with the better color saturation of an LCD, with the 120Hz and frame interpolation. In my experience, the 3D effect we are talking about, is simply not at all associated with black levels or contrast ratios. Sorry, but you are off base.

Some people seem to have a philosophical objection to the IDEA of frame interpolation. That's a tragedy because for the first time in 120-odd years we have a display that can best film.

To those of you who are not afraid to embrace a new idea and who want the best image quality possible, spend some time with a quality 120Hz HDTV. For those who just can't stand the idea of it, buy another 60Hz HDTV to use after your present set is retired - while they can still be had.


More saturation? Seen a Pioneer Kuro lately?
You act like its' something new age that we can't adjust to liking....it doesn't look real and it doesn't look as good as alternatives such as quality plasmas to 'many' people including myself.

I own the 120Hz set. I watch the 120Hz set. I observe the SOE which is the exclusive domain of a 120Hz HDTV with frame interpolation. The images that are realer than those that film-based material can present are the entire reason I was attracted to the 120Hz technology. It's a combination of the brighter image of an LCD, with the better color saturation of an LCD, with the 120Hz and frame interpolation. In my experience, the 3D effect we are talking about, is simply not at all associated with black levels or contrast ratios. Sorry, but you are off base.So can you (or anyone) ever explain how 120HZ affects depth of a picture... Just because the motion is "smoother", then how does that do anything to the rest of the PQ?? The saturation levels of plasmas can easily be corrected through the color control.

And I will not dispute that. Note that the commentators immediately before you are less tolerent and more opinionated, in spite of the fact that they have little exposure to an important new advance in video quality.

I agree that AMP is a matter of taste - I happen to like the ultra-realistic look. I happen to also like the true motion smoothness that results from displaying 24/30/60fps source on a 120Hz display. But many here would deny themselves this technological advance because of a preconception that plasma is better.

I don't find it so, and I built my first Home Theater in 1984, and I've been critically evaluating display technology, and attending real theaters, for a long time.I own multiple LCDs, and I have seen 120HZ LCDs on in a variety of environments. I hate AMP, but I like the 120HZ motion better than previous LCDs. I was not critical of 120HZ... I was just critical of how you stated that 120hz adds to the depth of a picture. It doesn't.

I own the 120Hz set. I watch the 120Hz set. I observe the SOE which is the exclusive domain of a 120Hz HDTV with frame interpolation. The images that are realer than those that film-based material can present are the entire reason I was attracted to the 120Hz technology. It's a combination of the brighter image of an LCD, with the better color saturation of an LCD, with the 120Hz and frame interpolation. In my experience, the 3D effect we are talking about, is simply not at all associated with black levels or contrast ratios. Sorry, but you are off base.

Some people seem to have a philosophical objection to the IDEA of frame interpolation. That's a tragedy because for the first time in 120-odd years we have a display that can best film.

To those of you who are not afraid to embrace a new idea and who want the best image quality possible, spend some time with a quality 120Hz HDTV. For those who just can't stand the idea of it, buy another 60Hz HDTV to use after your present set is retired - while they can still be had.

Afraid to embrace a new idea and want the best image possible???
my goodness, such opinon based propaganda you are speaking.

Look, If you like interpolation then thats great. Have fun and enjoy.

Just don't try to convince others that preferr true motion performance as opposed to fake frame adding that there is something wrong with them or "they are afraid to embrace" anything .
Interpolation is basically meant to trick your eyes. And alot of us can spot interpolation immediatly and dislike the effects, artifacts, and unnatural feel it gives to film and other content. This is not a Plasma vs LCD thing, This is something that even alot of LCD owners and enthusiasts dislike also.

Also, Your comment that the 3D effect is not at all associated with black levels or contrast ratios, is absolutly incorrect.
Contrast ratio has alot to do with it. When most people speak of the "3-D effect" they are not speaking of "soap opera effect" These are two totally seperate things. The 3D effect has alot to do with contrast and color depth and saturation. 120hz has nothing to do with it.
There is a huge misconception that 120hz is "the new standard".
120hz is used to combat the weak spot (motion performance) of LCD's.
Thats all.
CRT's and Plasmas simply do not need 120hz.

Read what I said. I've said it more than once. The "3D POPOUT effect", the "realer than real images", the "soap opera effect" are all the result of frame interpolation, which depends upon the existence of an underlying 120Hz display.

It's not 120Hz that does it. It's frame interpolation, which has a smoothing effect which can be seen (slightly) on 72Hz plasmas - but most people don't use it on those displays, any more than they immediately like it on the 120Hz LCDs. A few people do see an immediate benefit, my wife and I for example. What we are talking about is a video frame rate higher trhan 24/30/60Hz, with each frame different from the last or the next, which you are seeing for the first time in your life.

But almost everyone is crippled by a whole life's experience watching a 60Hz display. That includes every direct-view CRT, every CRT RPTV, every plasma panel, most LCD flat panels, and most CRT FPTVs. It also includes most but not all DLP and LCD front projectors.

You can't help but have a crippled perception of filmed material on such a 60Hz display, it's unavoidable. Telecine motion judder and other artifacts arising from frame rate conversion from 24fps to 60Hz lie at the root of this. When you see something that is actually better, the normal human response is to reject it as unfamiliar.

Yes you can see the motion smoothed by the 120Hz alone. But that unique 3D image from well photographed materiial requires both 120Hz and frame interpolation. Some of you are almost there, observing one benefit but not ready for the second.

It is something you have to work at to overcome. Believe me, film is NOT SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE THAT, not at all how it looks on a 60Hz display. To settle for 60Hz display refresh is to settle for mediocre video quality.

Some few in this thread have seen the light. I am convinced that most if not all viewers can make the adjustment from the comforting look of distortion as seen on a 60Hz display, to something better. But you do have to work at it. I do know what I'm talking about with this topic, but I know that words will not convince everybody. Therefore I am done with this thread.

I urge anyone who has read this far to give 120Hz a chance - most people can make the necessary perceptual adjustment in a few hours time. Until you have made that much effort, you have not put enough time into your evaluation of displays.

Should you have doubts, attend a film theater. Then honestly evaluate what you have seen.

Bye.

When A/V enthusiasts, reviewers, and magazines mention "the 3D-effect" this is what they mean:


http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm71/chadmak09/untitled5.jpg?t=1222736208
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http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm71/chadmak09/untitled4.jpg?t=1222736272
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They are not talking about 120Hz or interpolation effects.

but when guys looking at TVs in best buy want the "3d" effect they saw, they probably ARE talking about motion interpolation.

It's hard to see the 3-D effect when the 6020 was the dullest worst looking display at the store yesterday. And this is the truth I swear to God. I mentioned to the Salesman that do to the windows this display looked horribly washed out and blacks were null and grey and he pushed his face right up to the glass with his hands cupped and peered into the display and said come here you can see. I swear this happened and I almost pissed my pants this was so funny. I couldn't make this stuff up. And he was pushing Kuro. Should not have put it right next to the 950 in day light viewing during Football season which is a mostly all DAY event..

I know the Pioneers are good and I have a Pioneer but was ready for something different. AMP has me interested. We will see.

Football on the 950 kicked the 6020's ass in color and fun factor, yes fun factor. I don't wan't to be watching the 49ers and me and all my buddies are like "This is such an accurate and pretty picture. Kind of dull but it's just like a painting from the Louvre" I prefer WOW this set kicks ass and it's better than being there. Very 3-D!! Having a little fun there sorry.

Once again, I am looking forward to giving the 950 a try. If I really hate it I will come back and say so but until then I'm looking forward to the giving AMP and the 950 a whirl.

Rick

It's hard to see the 3-D effect when the 6020 was the dullest worst looking display at the store yesterday. And this is the truth I swear to God. I mentioned to the Salesman that do to the windows this display looked horribly washed out and blacks were null and grey and he pushed his face right up to the glass with his hands cupped and peered into the display and said come here you can see. I swear this happened and I almost pissed my pants this was so funny. I couldn't make this stuff up. And he was pushing Kuro. Should not have put it right next to the 950 in day light viewing during Football season which is a mostly all DAY event..

I know the Pioneers are good and I have a Pioneer but was ready for something different. AMP has me interested. We will see.

Football on the 950 kicked the 6020's ass in color and fun factor, yes fun factor. I don't wan't to be watching the 49ers and me and all my buddies are like "This is such an accurate and pretty picture. Kind of dull but it's just like a painting from the Louvre" I prefer WOW this set kicks ass and it's better than being there. Very 3-D!! Having a little fun there sorry.

Once again, I am looking forward to giving the 950 a try. If I really hate it I will come back and say so but until then I'm looking forward to the giving AMP and the 950 a whirl.

Rick

Dullest and worst looking display at the store??

You may not like the Kuro for your own personal reasons, but to say it was the worst display in the store is probably one of the worst examples of overexaggeration (or just flat out dishonesty) I have seen lately.

Many of us may preferr the Kuro over the 950, But would never go as far as say the 950 the worst display in the store. Thats just flat out being a troll.

I guess all these magazines and reviewers and calibrators are just crazy and everyone should listen to you and declare the 6020 the "worst display".
I mean come on man. Talk about someone trying to justify a purchase.

Both are at the top of the list of great TV's.

Dullest and worst looking display at the store??

You may not like the Kuro for your own personal reasons, but to say it was the worst display in the store is probably one of the worst examples of overexaggeration (or just flat out dishonesty) I have seen lately.

Many of us may preferr the Kuro over the 950, But would never go as far as say the 950 the worst display in the store. Thats just flat out being a troll.

I guess all these magazines and reviewers and calibrators are just crazy and everyone should listen to you and declare the 6020 the "worst display".
I mean come on man. Talk about someone trying to justify a purchase.

Both are at the top of the list of great TV's.

Chad, you are the biggest fanboy here although you play it off like not. I read your posts and most of your posts are all quotes from on-line publications.

You just said in an earlier post you were roaming the streets in your great state and there was no 950 to be found so don't play it off like you have seen it because you have not. You only spout off crap from the internet not to mention that you are so confused you can't hold onto any set for more than a couple of months.

Go read my post from yesterday dude in the 950 thread. The 6020 in a room of windows looked the worst. As did all of the other plasmas. Yes windows had a lot to do with it but a spade is a spade.

You can't pull your fanboy crap on me because I have a Pioneer in my living room for 2.5 years dumb ass. Pioneer is not new to me and it has been a very good set.

To each their own and for me its the 950 for now and I will probably keep it for more than two months.

What's the next one on your list? Maybe you should focus on audio equipment now? Let me know if you need some advice.

Watch the troll crap buddy.

Rick

I also briefly owned a Panasonic 50" plasma, and I wanted to like it. I returned it because of unacceptable reflections in my brightly lit room, and because of the unacceptable motion judder that is typical - and unavoidable - in a display that refreshes at 60Hz.

Plasma owners want to believe that they have the "best" display. They are unwilling (or unable) to admit that there are ambient lighting conditions and viewer preferences that overcome the advantages that a plasma admittedly does enjoy in some viewing environments. To the extent that they jump on a member request for the basic LCD/Plasma choice and reccomend plasma without finding out how and where the set will be used, they are giving bad advice.

Anybody who has not spent enough time (tens of hours) viewing a 120Hz set has not yet overcome the legacy of a lifetime of viewing 60Hz displays, and has not learned to appreciate that their own tastes include a technological limitation to video quality that results from the way they grew up viewing CRT televisions. I tell you that in every single case, those who view such a set long enough eventually "get it", which means they figure this out. It doesn't matter what they own before they "get it", they become 120Hz converts. This is without exception in my experience, with friends and relatives viewing my properly calibrated HDTV and clean HD-DVD and Blu-Ray and ATSC sources.

That's why I talk about this topic. To overcome the legions of bad advice from somebody who goes to a store either determined to prefer plasma, or determined not to like a 120Hz display because of a preconception about interpolated video frames not being "real" and therefore bad. Pretty much these were the prior owners of plasma displays - anyways in my experience, prior LCD owners are less resistent to the very idea that a 120Hz LCD could be significantly better than what they own.

To those of you still on the fence - get down to the video store, and lose those pre-conceptions.

So you returned a set because of reflection, and delve into one that has even more intense reflective properties?

Want to believe they have the best display? I guess LCD owners don't feel this way. Hence the reason for you're extremely long posts trying to convince others that frame interpolation is the wave of the future, and those unwilling to accept what you see as the best are just being ignorant.

No one is resisting, they just don't agree with your assessment, nor do they appreciate what you see as the best.

Prior LCD owners are less resistant? In the same manner that plasma owners are less resistant to seeing the Kuro as worth the extra ching?

Let's not patronize fellow AVS'ers, we know a little bit more than those walking into a local BB with CR in hand, wanting that Sylvania BD player, regardless of it's inability to decode HD audio codecs insteading of getting the player that costs $30.00 more, with these features.

Chad, you are the biggest fanboy here although you play it off like not. I read your posts and most of your posts are all quotes from on-line publications.

You just said in an earlier post you were roaming the streets in your great state and there was no 950 to be found so don't play it off like you have seen it because you have not. You only spout off crap from the internet not to mention that you are so confused you can't hold onto any set for more than a couple of months.

Go read my post from yesterday dude in the 950 thread. The 6020 in a room of windows looked the worst. As did all of the other panels.

You can't pull your fanboy crap on me because I have a Pioneer in my living room for 2.5 years dumb ass.

To each their own and for me its the 950 for now and I will probably keep for more than two months.

Whats the next one on your list? Maybe you should focus on audio equipment now? Let me know if you need some advice.

Watch the troll crap buddy.

Rick

Woah, talk about being flagrant and off topic. Is this what we are to resort to when others don't see eye to eye?

With all due respect, your comparison of the pre-Kuro Pioneer to modern LCD's isn't exactly a proper analysis. That would be like one comparing a modern plasma to a 2 year old LCD. Just like LCD has made some major improvments in that period of time, so has plasma.

In the end, it comes down to what a single individual prefers, and what makes you happy. If you like your lcd, fine, if you like plasma, fine.

Chad, you are the biggest fanboy here although you play it off like not. I read your posts and most of your posts are all quotes from on-line publications.

You just said in an earlier post you were roaming the streets in your great state and there was no 950 to be found so don't play it off like you have seen it because you have not. You only spout off crap from the internet not to mention that you are so confused you can't hold onto any set for more than a couple of months.

Go read my post from yesterday dude in the 950 thread. The 6020 in a room of windows looked the worst. As did all of the other plasmas. Yes windows had a lot to do with it but a spade is a spade.

You can't pull your fanboy crap on me because I have a Pioneer in my living room for 2.5 years dumb ass. Pioneer is not new to me and it has been a very good set.

To each their own and for me its the 950 for now and I will probably keep it for more than two months.

What's the next one on your list? Maybe you should focus on audio equipment now? Let me know if you need some advice.

Watch the troll crap buddy.

Rick

Way to dispute the information!
lol.
Is this how you dispute information, with namecalling and trolling??

Please let me know when you want to continue this discussion like an adult.

attack the information, not the poster.

Oh and by the way, your post has been reported to AVS.

Way to dispute the information!
lol.
Is this how you dispute information, with namecalling and trolling??

Please let me know when you want to continue this discussion like an adult.

Oh and by the way, your post has been reported to AVS.

Chill out Chad. You take this all too seriously. I would love to disucss since I will have my first LCD and Plasma in my house. Just don't use the troll lingo with me because I formed an opinion on a set that I have seen many times.

one calls a user dishonest and he responds calling the user a dumbass

nice guys, really nice way to treat the forum

closed