I'm considering purchasing an SVS PB13 Ultra or possibly a JL F113. I already have an MBM-12 (nearfield), which adds good kick when used with my Hsu VTF3.2 (farfield). However, the PB13 and F113 are different animals from the Hsu. Do these subs have so much tactile feel that an MBM-12 is not helpful, or even worse, degrading?

IMO, it would have about the same effect. It is more of an issue between farfield and nearfield rather than the subs.

You already have the MBM, so it isn't going to cost you anything to try.

IMO, it would have about the same effect. It is more of an issue between farfield and nearfield rather than the subs.

You already have the MBM, so it isn't going to cost you anything to try.


The $400 or so would help pay for the SVS or JL. I was considering placing the new sub nearfield between the sofa and loveseat.

I think I would rather upgrade the sub if you need the $$ sell it. But if you not satisfied you will lose @$100 and need to buy another MBM. How many Svs Pb13 and Fathom 113 setups do you see them have a "need" for the MBM?

How many Svs Pb13 and Fathom 113 setups do you see them have a "need" for the MBM?

I haven't heard of anyone using the combo. That's pretty convincing. The MBM adds some great impact and I definitely don't want to lose thet kick in the 50-90 Hz range.

I think I would rather upgrade the sub if you need the $$ sell it. But if you not satisfied you will lose @$100 and need to buy another MBM. How many Svs Pb13 and Fathom 113 setups do you see them have a "need" for the MBM?
It has nothing to do with "need". The Hsu subs do not need them either.

It mainly has to do with splitting the frequencies into nearfield and farfield.

The $400 or so would help pay for the SVS or JL. I was considering placing the new sub nearfield between the sofa and loveseat.
If you place the new sub nearfield, I think it would negate at least some of the advantage of the MBM. The MBM would probably give you more headroom in its frequency range, but you probably won't need it.

It is best to try first. Get first hand experience....unlike guys that have never tried it befiore. :)

The price difference between the PB13U and F113 is huge....so surely you can try the PB13U/MBM combo.

Get first hand experience....unlike guys that have never tried it befiore. :)

I was hoping to find someone who has tried an MBM AND owns either a PB13 or a JL. I don't really want to have to buy and try only to be disappointed. So far, a PB13 and the MBM seems to be the better option based upon cost. The JL is a good 500-600 more (used) than the SVS.

I was hoping to find someone who has tried an MBM AND owns either a PB13 or a JL. I don't really want to have to buy and try only to be disappointed. So far, a PB13 and the MBM seems to be the better option based upon cost. The JL is a good 500-600 more (used) than the SVS.
Understood.

I recently had a F112 in my room.....excellent! The PB13/MBM combo would certainly have more power and punch.....but sound quality, I am not sure.

I feel overall sound quality is as important to me as it's ability to dig deep. I've owned boomy subs like the SVS 20-39 and really want to find something much more defined.

It has nothing to do with "need". The Hsu subs do not need them either.

It mainly has to do with splitting the frequencies into nearfield and farfield.
Whats the purpose of splitting the frequencies? Having a Fathom which can deliver it all? I don't see and advantage other than adding another sub which you are doing. You are actually comparing 2 subs vs One.

Whats the purpose of splitting the frequencies? Having a Fathom which can deliver it all? I don't see and advantage other than adding another sub which you are doing. You are actually comparing 2 subs vs One.
Having the upper bass nearfield will negate the loss of impact due to distance.

Farfield and close to bounderies is an advantage to lower bass. This is a detriment to upper bass where you want it much cleaner.

Place the Fathom nearfield, and you are correct, it will negate much of the advantage of the MBM, but you lose the advantage of lower bass placed farfield.

Whats the purpose of splitting the frequencies? Having a Fathom which can deliver it all? I don't see and advantage other than adding another sub which you are doing. You are actually comparing 2 subs vs One.

I've compared two VTF3.2 (one near, one far) and the single 3.2 and MBM combo. The MBM combo performed with much more impact. The question is, will an F113 or PB13 have the same tactile feel at above 50 Hz as an MBM?

I feel overall sound quality is as important to me as it's ability to dig deep. I've owned boomy subs like the SVS 20-39 and really want to find something much more defined.
Totally understood, but you really should compare to really understand what you would be gaining and losing.

I've compared two VTF3.2 (one near, one far) and the single 3.2 and MBM combo. The MBM combo performed with much more impact. The question is, will an F113 or PB13 have the same tactile feel at above 50 Hz as an MBM?
If placed farfield...my answer is no. Nearfield....maybe.

I've compared two VTF3.2 (one near, one far) and the single 3.2 and MBM combo. The MBM combo performed with much more impact. The question is, will an F113 or PB13 have the same tactile feel at above 50 Hz as an MBM?

I hear ya if the sub has the same @ 50hz you gain nothing. But I dunno if they do? What I'm saying is if you need the $$ to buy a better sub sell it and try it. If you feel you don't then your out @$100 when you buy another MBM if needed

a PB-13 and an MBM would be a killer combo.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll147/MLdad/AVS/91908nearfieldULS-15QDMBM-noAudysse.gif

Having the upper bass nearfield will negate the loss of impact due to distance.

Farfield and close to bounderies is an advantage to lower bass. This is a detriment to upper bass where you want it much cleaner.

Place the Fathom nearfield, and you are correct, it will negate much of the advantage of the MBM, but you lose the advantage of lower bass placed farfield.

Dr. Hsu and Pete came over and helped reconfigure my QuadDrive ULS-15 and MBM-12 x 4 opting for a symmetrical nearfield implmentation. After performing exhaustive measurements for all possible sub placements, Dr. Hsu's conclusion was that greatest headroom (20hz+ nearfield) was more favorable at the expense of deepest extension (single digit hz, farfield) for the best overall experience and program material practicality in my particular room. As some may recall, my room imparts certain suckouts when subs play from front and rear. Farfield, the ULS-15's can extend down to 8hz. The tradeoff is that they have 20db less output at the same amp level settings compared to when measured nearfield. Up close, at my listening position, the ULS-15's drop off below 16hz but are coasting along with that 20db advantage. The above graph reflects no smoothing, no Audyssey. For now, I am evaluating the DEQ2496 for sole sub EQ duty, while retaining Audyssey for just the mids and highs. Here's the accompanying waterfall. I don't know how to look at these yet. I suppose the goal is to reduce the decay times as much as possible.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll147/MLdad/AVS/91908-waterfall-PEQonly-noAudyssey.gif

Very cool!!

Can you "tell" Audessey what to EQ and not to EQ?

Sort of. The work around is to run Audyssey without the subwoofer channel enabled so that it won't ping it during calibration. The problem is that it will then only level match the satellites and EQ'd for full range. I have found that the resultant EQ curve for the satellites are also optimized for level trims which are -6.5db lower than what they would be set if the sub were to be included in the Audyssey calibration. I have observed that adding this 6.5db back into those satellite channels in order to level match with the sub causes the LCR mains to bottom out during demo scenes when crossed normally at 80hz. Currently, I am running at 150hz so that they don't encounter over excursion. Surprisingly enough, localization is not as pronounced. We attribute this to the symmetrical placement. Here's some feedback I received from Dr. Hsu on the matter:

Two things certainly help tremendously to make the high crossover frequency workable in the nearfield. As you said, having the subs symmetric (left and right of you) helped greatly to effectively place the 'image' of the bass right where you sit. Secondly, I was astounded by how much a difference adjusting the distance of the sub made to make the bass integrate seamlessly with the front speakers. When I was in your seat, I really hear the image snap into place and became seamless when you adjusted the distance parameter on the pre-pro. That was an eye opener.

Next, I am going to re-run Audyssey with the DEQ2496 inline to see what happens.

I hear ya if the sub has the same @ 50hz you gain nothing. But I dunno if they do? What I'm saying is if you need the $$ to buy a better sub sell it and try it. If you feel you don't then your out @$100 when you buy another MBM if needed

Good point. There would be little lost. Maybe it would convince me to buy two MBM's.



a PB-13 and an MBM would be a killer combo.

Not to get into another AV123 Vs. SVS Vs. .... debate but another question is: since the sub will be limited to the below 50 Hz range (using MBM-12 from 50-90 Hz), would a PB13 Ultra (From Craigsub: Measured results ... 20 Hz: 108 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 113.5 dB) have much more of an advantage over a single MFW15 (From Craigsub: Measured results... 20 Hz - 105 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 112 dB)? From what I understand, the PB13 Ultra has a bit tighter feel than the MFW-15 but would that be less obvious in the below 50 Hz range?

http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11

The ultra gets even stronger the lower you go compared to the MFW-15.(based on numbers, etc...) Basically the ultra has better low end performance so if using an MBM-12 it would seem to be a more logical choice at least on paper. I personally feel the MBM-12 would be great with any sub as long as it has more output within its usable frequency range than said sub.

I personally feel the MBM-12 would be great with any sub as long as it has more output within its usable frequency range than said sub.


Here's some testing from HT Shack (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://personal.inet.fi/private/zipman/shootout5/jl%2520audio%2520f113%2520fr.png&imgrefurl=http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/8152-jl-audio-fathom-f113-new.html&h=550&w=900&sz=19&hl=en&start=5&um=1&usg=__sIVKIEQIlDT6oJ-yvc7RASLkXVk=&tbnid=YksmPm1eHVQ1fM:&tbnh=89&tbnw=146&prev=/images%3Fq%3Df113%2Bspl%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GWYE_e nUS263US263%26sa%3DN)

Is there really a significant difference in output from 50-90 Hz?

http://personal.inet.fi/private/zipman/shootout4/hsu%20mbm-12%20fr.png

http://personal.inet.fi/private/zipman/shootout5/jl%20audio%20f113%20fr.png

That does not show reference level playbacks where the MBM-12 would help out in headroom. I would want that same headroom throughout all frequencies and not just the midbass. The question I have is for when people have all that midbass capability does the low bass keep up, I think it should. An example would be having 2-4 MBM-12's and 2 subs which gives you much more midbass capability than the low frequencies. I would want to balance it out.

That does not show reference level playbacks where the MBM-12 would help out in headroom. I would want that same headroom throughout all frequencies and not just the midbass. The question I have is for when people have all that midbass capability does the low bass keep up, I think it should. An example would be having 2-4 MBM-12's and 2 subs which gives you much more midbass capability than the low frequencies. I would want to balance it out.

+1. With a nearfield MBM-12, I think unless you have a lot of room gain with a very capable subwoofer (or two) your low bass won't be able to keep up with the midbass punch.

+1. With a nearfield MBM-12, I think unless you have a lot of room gain with a very capable subwoofer (or two) your low bass won't be able to keep up with the midbass punch.

That's where I am right now. I need more capability in the sub. The Hsu is great but my room is just under 3000 cu ft and open to the rest of the house.



With my layout I really only have the space for one sub in the front right corner and one nearfield to the right. I'm leaning towards just replacing the Hsu with a PB13 Ultra and keeping the MBM-12.

Maybe I should just do two Conquests and four MBM-12s. I can ditch the sofas and put some pillows on top of the MBMs.

Have you checked your local av shops to see if one has an F113 to demo for you? That's what sold me on the sub.

Have you checked your local av shops to see if one has an F113 to demo for you? That's what sold me on the sub.

We only have one AV shop here. The closest JL I can find is in San Antonio (five hours away). I would likely lose more going to buy one than purchasing and selling if I don't like it.

You are using a Vtf3-2? If so yeah probably to much space for the sub.I'm not saying the MBM is a bad option just if I were to choose between one very good sub or an okay sub and a MBM, I would go for the one. Not many ppl have room for 8 subs. Crazy, good subs at that like ^ Dad.If you had room I would get the Conquest or the Castle it's smaller. Epik doesn't make nice subs. May not be as nice as the ultra but I bet the Castle/Conquest sound good.

I think, because of the room's decor and WAF, etc., a PB13, JL F112/113, or a pair of MFW15s would be better than an Epik. The Hsu (Vtf 3.2 Turbo) stands out a bit too much as it is.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/2308/hsu1ea1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/hsu1ea1.jpg/1/w400.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img220/hsu1ea1.jpg/1/)

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f98/ironmike86/setup/DSC06130.jpg
I hear yea the Epik has a nice finish but if you have waf the Big Epik won't cut it. The Pb13 looks better with the wood. But duel Mfw would be huge also. Cheapest option is to get the Ultra and keep the MBM if you want max spl. Actually if the Hsu is just a little less than you want maybe one MFW would be enough? Keeping the MBM? That's the cheapest option.