I installed an antenna on the roof for OTA stations. The signal from that antenna is diplexed into my Dishnetwork satellite coax and routed to the Dishnetwork satellite box. For about two weeks, all of the OTA program information was shown on my TV when you hit 'guide' on the Dishnetwork remote, but then suddenly the information disappeared. It still shows the channel number and the correct TV station call letters, but no program info. What gives?

If you pay for dish locals you will get guide information. If you don't pay for the locals, you will not receive programming information.

Really? Why on earth would I pay Dish for locals when they are broadcast for free? Most of the OTA locals have better HD PQ than Dish does. Also, most of the locals have more than one channel, for example, channel 7 has three channels (7-1, 7-2, 7-3). With Dish, you would only get one channel 7. What is odd is that the programming info worked at first, then went away. How does a subscription for locals change how the satellite box displays the programming info?

Really? Why on earth would I pay Dish for locals when they are broadcast for free? Most of the OTA locals have better HD PQ than Dish does. Also, most of the locals have more than one channel, for example, channel 7 has three channels (7-1, 7-2, 7-3). With Dish, you would only get one channel 7. What is odd is that the programming info worked at first, then went away. How does a subscription for locals change how the satellite box displays the programming info?
If you don't subscribe to a channel, the associated information won't be sent from the provider.

The receiver stores guide information for 2 weeks. Your receiver already had that information, but by the time 2 weeks was up, it was gone. I bet that had you gone into the guide a week ago, you would have seen 2 weeks worth of information for all of the channels EXCEPT the locals. Only 1 week on them.

But, with OTA, the provider is the broadcaster. So, why won't my satellite box display the OTA broadcaster's program info?

But, with OTA, the provider is the broadcaster. So, why won't my satellite box display the OTA broadcaster's program info?
Are the channels are tuned in by the receiver or are they diplexed out prior to the receiver and tuned in by the TV set?

Hummm, good question. On the roof, there is an OTA antenna and the dish. These two are diplexed together and go into the Dishnet vip satellite box with a single coax. The satellite box then has a single HDMI going into the TV set. So, I assume the satellite box is the receiver for the OTA broadcast channel signals????

Really? Why on earth would I pay Dish for locals when they are broadcast for free? Most of the OTA locals have better HD PQ than Dish does. Also, most of the locals have more than one channel, for example, channel 7 has three channels (7-1, 7-2, 7-3). With Dish, you would only get one channel 7. What is odd is that the programming info worked at first, then went away. How does a subscription for locals change how the satellite box displays the programming info?
Because many people subscribed to satellite don't want to be bothered with buying and building their own OTA solution. Others are in difficult reception environments for OTA.

Dish doesn't generate the locals programming information, it is provided by some other company, no doubt at a cost. The subscription doesn't actually change the display. Dish controls the content of the guides.

Dish has the technical capability of making programming information available even if you don't subscribe to your locals. Last year when I started switching receivers and did not pay for locals, the programming information was never available on a 622 or a 211, but was present on an 811. Eventually, Dish removed all locals programming unless you pay for the service.

The answer is simple, money. Your DVR is a lot easier to use with the locals if there is guide information present. This was a move to force you to pay $5 in order to have complete functionality of their equipment which included an OTA tuner.

It's called "nickel and diming the customer to death".

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that local broadcast stations included program information in the OTA signal. If that is not the case, then of course Dish would have to put out that data. I guess my fundamental misunderstanding was assuming the information was included in the OTA signal. So, what is PSIP (program and system information protocol)? Isn't that how the OTA station broadcast signal contains program information?

Yes,the info is in the stream, but the Dish STB is not displaying that. If you could bring the OTA signal directly into your TV you'd be able to see the PSIP info for that ch (assuming the TV has that capability).

How does one get Dish's satellite box to display the data? Does directtv's box display the data?

How does one get Dish's satellite box to display the data? Does directtv's box display the data?
DirecTV displays the data whether one subscribes to the channel or not. Local channels are included with whatever package and the guide info is displayed for all the local channels (including subchannels) in their database, whether you receive them via DirecTV or OTA.

How does one get Dish's satellite box to display the data? Does directtv's box display the data?

You can't, unless you pay the monthly fee. You can connect the antenna directly to your tv or use a splitter and connect it to both the tv and the satellite receiver.

Direct is doing the same thing as Dish. The difference is that locals and the locals fee are built into the programming packages with no option to not pay for or receive locals from the satellite.

It's called "nickel and diming the customer to death".
Dish doesn't generate the locals programming information, it is provided by some other company, no doubt at a cost. Dish is simply asking the consumer to pay for what he/she receives. I don't believe that is unfair or nickel and diming the customer to death

PSIP data is free. The receiver is able to decode the channel mapped number, but they intentionally leave out the ability to display the guide info that's sent along with it.

Probably wouldn't cost them much to include the ability to also show the PSIP guide data - might have to do a little software re-designing, to make it integrate in the guide (or at least be able to press the "info" button on the remote and make it show up when you're on that channel), but if anything, they're intentionally taking it away.

Admittedly, that might cost them initially, but they'd make things better for certain customers in the long run (and maybe even pick up a few new customers, since they lost more than they gained last quarter - you'd think they'd be getting less greedy and more accommodating), but they're just not going to do that when there's a way they can get more money out of them instead. As usual, it's about power, control and greed. Good business sense rarely ever comes first when it comes to big corporations.

It still comes down to being more profitable the way it is now, and forcing someone to subscribe to the locals if they want the local data integrated in the guide, and not have to set all manual timers for those channels.

Don't fault them for wanting to make as much profit as they can - just for making every last thing they can possibly think of proprietary to their service. 'Course, they're all doing that now, so we might as well just suck it up. I guess that we should just be thankful that they're at least still incuding an ATSC tuner in the receiver, unlike DirecTV. They still are generally cheaper than them, too.

Thanks Rammitinski - that certainly answers my question. Although, I am a little disappointed. I definately will not pay Dish for their locals, as the OTA provides a lot more channels (eg, 9-1, -2, -3, -4, -5) and the HD picture quality of the OTA stations blows the doors off of the bandwidth limited Dish satellite signal.

Thanks Rammitinski - that certainly answers my question. Although, I am a little disappointed. I definately will not pay Dish for their locals, as the OTA provides a lot more channels (eg, 9-1, -2, -3, -4, -5) and the HD picture quality of the OTA stations blows the doors off of the bandwidth limited Dish satellite signal.
If your TV set has an ATSC tuner, just diplex the locals back out and tune them via your TV set. An additional step to watch to watch OTA, but at least you'll get all of your guide data. If Dish does their locals like DirecTV does, the local channels are in a database, which could be missing some channels.

That just made me realize that I won't be getting any guide data at all on my Pio plasma anymore come Feb., because it only gets it from the analog TVGOS signal - no PSIP guide data.

Hopefully my Sony DVR will still be able to get it from the digital TVGOS, because it's designed the same way - no PSIP guide data to fall back on.

I was always thinking about Feb. '09 in terms of losing the TVGOS functionality, but it never really dawned on me that I'll just be losing the guide data, period. That's really going to suck. My Samsung DTB-H260F gets it, but I don't particularly like the PQ - I think something's wrong with the box, because it's way too fuzzy. Same with my Accurian - it's too soft for my liking to watch all the time. Hopefully that TR-50 will be out by then, and it will have superb enough PQ that I'd actually be satisfied replacing the Sony DVR's PQ with it. Otherwise, there's no way I'd use those others in place of the Sony. And the TV's tuner isn't nearly as sensitive as any of my other boxes.

Might have to just rely on one of my standard def CECB boxes to get the guide data. Oh, well.

Another free source of OTA guide data is Microsoft. If you have Vista Home Premium, Vista Ultimate or Windows XP Media Center Edition, that has access to a cost-free EPG (for OTA and cable/satellite channels) downloaded via an internet connection, within the Media Center Application.

The new TV Pack version integrates the downloaded EPG (which has more information and better metadata, but is only updated daily) with the European DVB EIT EPG (which is updated live to trigger recordings, and cope with early or late programme starts even when you are tuned to a different station, in some territories, by some broadcasters) It could also integrate ATSC PSIP data with the downloaded EPG as well I guess (as that would follow the same model) - but I don't know if it does.

Another free source of OTA guide data is Microsoft. If you have Vista Home Premium, Vista Ultimate or Windows XP Media Center Edition, that has access to a cost-free EPG (for OTA and cable/satellite channels) downloaded via an internet connection, within the Media Center Application.

The new TV Pack version integrates the downloaded EPG (which has more information and better metadata, but is only updated daily) with the European DVB EIT EPG (which is updated live to trigger recordings, and cope with early or late programme starts even when you are tuned to a different station, in some territories, by some broadcasters) It could also integrate ATSC PSIP data with the downloaded EPG as well I guess (as that would follow the same model) - but I don't know if it does.

Huh?

There is always www.tvguide.com

Another free source of OTA guide data is Microsoft. If you have Vista Home Premium, Vista Ultimate or Windows XP Media Center Edition..Don't have any of those - already checked into that at one time. Have XP, so I'd need to get MCE.

Could easily do that, but don't really want to be checking my computer all the time for the info. Also, it's in another room. Would have to invest in running it to my TV then. Don't really want to use my computer for recording, either - trying to stay away from that. We'll see.

I have two days worth of info for all but some local subchannels on my SD Dish guide, but two days worth doesn't quite cut it. If I were to settle for that, I'd just keep the weekly Sunday newspaper TV guide next to me (even though it doesn't cover all the OTA stations I can get). Guess you could say I'm spoiled. 8-days worth of TVGOS at your fingertips will do that. Especially with the "search" feature.

If the TR-50 never materializes (or just plain turns out to be so crappy I wouldn't want it), there's always TiVo, with the lifetime subscription.