The 6500ub uses both the Reon and Pixelworks. The 6500ub's frame interpolation comes from Pixelworks - I actually just read that on the Projectorreviews blog on Frame interpolation.

Just having a Pixelworks doesn't make it fast, just so we don't assume that. It's the previous generation Pixelworks PW390 processor that's fast, not the new one that the 6500UB uses (the PW9800). Just sayin'. :D

The Epson 1080, 1080UB and 6100, Sanyo Z700 and IN82/83 all use the PW390. I expect this to be the last year that this processor is used, since it doesn't support 120hz or interpolation, which the marketing department drools over and ruins things for us gamers!

Projector People showed five projectors on one wall simultaneously.

I was surprised to see that the Epson 6500UB picture lagged behind the others, even the Panasonic 3000.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B6Wsgiiqnc

I suspect, though, that Frame Interpolation/Creation was turned on on both, so I suppose that doesn't really tell us anything with regards to gaming, since we gamers would/should turn off FI/FC when playing a fast-twitch game.

Sony HW10, using my regular settings (RCP, Gamma correction etc. on) hooked up to the HDMI port of my new HTPC, with a CRT hooked up to VGA using mirroring, is measuring 0-20ms delay at 60Hz, with it typically being 0-10ms.

I know mirroring maybe isn't the perfect solution, but I don't have a long enough VGA cable to hook up to the HW10 to use my splitter. (and I don't have anything for HDMI/DVI)

http://i41.tinypic.com/2cxw2rn.jpg

This one was my worst result of 30 photos taken at 1/1000s.

Excellent, andrewfee! The setup you're using is good (It's the same as they use to test monitors at behardware.com, and they've shown that HDMI doesn't add lag there). That puts the HW10 among the ranks of the fastest tested so far (maybe the fastest)! From what you've said, taking the average would show the lag to be under 15ms. It's great that we're finally getting some solid numbers on these projectors, and we've actually got a decent choice of fast ones.

In fact, with the Epson 6100, Sony HW10, and Infocus IN83, it looks like we've now got three excellent choices for every point along the price/performance axis, for those looking for an extremely low-lag projector. 6100 for entry-level, HW10 for mid-range, and IN83 for high-end.

What's even nicer is, there's no tradeoff. Each of those projectors happens to be a standout in its class.

I have a JVC RS10 and I'm waaaay into SFIV. I need to know how best to hook up my Xbox 360 to reduce lag. It is currently hooked up using component and set to 1080p. If the lag is bad this way, maybe it would be better to hook it up with VGA and set it to 720p (SFIV's resolution).

I'm willing to go pretty far to test this. Eg, I've contemplated opening a controller to wire an LED (see Testing CCC2 For Input Lag (http://nki.combovideos.com/) under "Miscellaneous vids") but I only have a digital camera that captures 30fps. I trust this way more than using a secondary LCD (or even CRT, though I don't own one), which I think just has too many variables. I've read Rock Band 2 has an automated test, but I don't own it. I would buy it on eBay for ~$20 if it were accurate, except apparently it requires a microphone and/or guitar to do the test automatically. This makes it too expensive to try without being sure it can measure accurately.

Is anyone willing to test the RS10 using a 60fps digital recording? :)

Ok, well I decided to experiment. Here is a video showing my modded Xbox 360 controller. It now has an LED that lights when up is pressed:

http://n4te.com/misc/inputlag/testing123.avi

I then used my crappy digital camera to capture a video of me pressing up on the SFIV main menu. Here is the video, slowed down to about a frame every 2 seconds:

http://n4te.com/misc/inputlag/frames.avi

It looks like the camera caught the LED just as it was lighting up. I think we can assume that the button was pressed at the beginning of that frame. Two frames go by without the game's menu reacting, then by the third frame the menu has reacted.

The controller is of the wireless type. I don't have a wired controller. I have a charger pack so I could plug the controller into the Xbox 360 for this test, but I'm guessing the controller probably still transmits wirelessly? I guess testing it wouldn't hurt to see if the reaction time is better.

I highly doubt the game software does any intense activities that would lag when up is pressed on the main menu. If the Xbox 360 itself or the game are adding any lag, it is probably only a millisecond or two.

At 29.97 fps there is 33.36 ms per frame. A better video recorder would give us higher precision. This means that the delay from my button press to seeing the screen change was between 66 and 99 ms. This is the best possible and worse possible lag that the JVC RS10 can have when accepting component input, assuming my Casio Exilim EX-S10 actually captures at ~30 fps. I have a composite cable I will test soon for kicks, though I would never actually use that. Unfortunately I don't have an HDMI cable to test with. For those that don't know, the RS10 projector doesn't have a VGA input.

Are there any RS10 settings that might help? 66 to 99 ms isn't very good at all for SFIV considering one frame is 16 ms. That means everything I see is 4 to 6 frames behind. :( No wonder links are so hard! I broke the bank on this projector with plans to not upgrade for many (5+) years. I really need it to work better for SFIV! :(

Edit: Thinking about it a little (I'm a software engineer), games are typically single threaded and handle input in the game loop. This means that the game may delay reacting to input for up to one frame. Assuming the main menu is rendered at 60 fps (like the actual gameplay is), the reaction time may be off by 0 to 16 ms. This improves the RS10's best possible lag time to 50 ms, with the worst case scenario still at 99 ms.

I tested composite input and found it to consistently delay 4 to 5 frames at 30 fps, so 117 to 166 ms. I tested running at 720p component and got the same as 1080p component, 2 to 3 frames, so 50 to 99 ms. I did tests on the SFIV main menu and also the Xbox dashboard menu with the same results.

I could not find any settings on the RS10 that would affect the lag. :(

It seems there is no difference between plugged and unplugged controllers.

After running many more tests of component 1080p, sometimes it happens in 1 to 2 frames instead of 2 to 3 frames. This is because sometimes the camera catches the LED just as it lights up (resulting in 2 to 3 frames), and sometimes it lights up fully between frames (resulting in 1 to 2 frames). I believe 2 to 3 frames is accurate and the best I can measure with my 30 fps camera. Can anyone recommend a 60 or 120 fps camera I could borrow from a local store? :)

I tested HDMI and verified it is the same as component. The only input I have not tested is s-video.

HDMI would be the fastest because there is no digital -> analog -> digital conversion. Also be sure to set the output resolution of the gaming console to 1080p so the there is no resolution scaling taking place. This would have been my projector of choice had it not been for lag. Everyone here at my house is serious about gaming, so I had to go with the IN83. The image is stunning, especially the bright and mixed brightness scenes, but very dark scenes leave me wanting blacks even half as good as the RS10.

I still got 2-3 frames at 33 fps even with 1080p HDMI. The RS10 is almost perfect for movies. I'm pretty unhappy with the performance for playing SFIV though. This is a very timing sensitive game. I thought linking some of the combos was just really hard, but I now believe I am just 4 to 6 game frames behind. This is awkward playing locally and a huge disadvantage playing online, where internet lag compounds the problem. I have recently been using my HT more for SFIV than movies, and I love getting more use from the HT. It is just really frustrating that I'll be stuck with this lag for many years. :( It wasn't easy to convince the wife to drop so much cash on the RS10.

Hey, NaTeDoGG, while I'm sure there's lag there, it's probably not quite as many frames as you're thinking, since the XBox's processing is also being counted into that. I mean, the XBox needs to read the signal from your controller, process it, and decide the output, along with whatever other processing it's doing. I know you tried to account for that, but it's really anybody's guess how much lag is introduced by the console itself.

Do you have a CRT in the house too, by any chance? If so, you can try to do the same test with it as well. Then, you can subtract the lag you get from that from the lag you measured with your RS10, to get a more accurate number.

Anyhow, I know how you feel. When I spent all my money on my first HDTV (a laggy Samsung DLP), and then found out about the lag problem, I felt like I'd been kicked in the face. The annoying thing is, the manufacturers know about this issue, but they keep quiet about it, since not many users know enough about it to make a fuss, so they can get away with it.

Anyhow, I know how you feel. When I spent all my money on my first HDTV (a laggy Samsung DLP), and then found out about the lag problem, I felt like I'd been kicked in the face. The annoying thing is, the manufacturers know about this issue, but they keep quiet about it, since not many users know enough about it to make a fuss, so they can get away with it.

I think the bigger problem is that consumers think very little about input lag. I am always astounded by the number of posts in every input lag thread that go on and about how input lag is all in your head, an imaginary concept, the vanity of crazed extreme gamers, and not noticeable to 'normal gamers' etc. And that's on AVSForum! Imagine the average consumer in a big-box store. Not to mention the confusion added by a chorus of other posters who will claim that the LCD response time of [4ms, 6ms, whatever] means that it is a low lag TV and great for gaming, when it may have 150+ ms of input lag.

Be assured my friend, if you care about input lag you are in the minority. No wonder most companies feel fine about slapping a 'game mode' label on a mode with 100ms of lag or more and calling it a day.

Sony HW10, using my regular settings (RCP, Gamma correction etc. on) hooked up to the HDMI port of my new HTPC, with a CRT hooked up to VGA using mirroring, is measuring 0-20ms delay at 60Hz, with it typically being 0-10ms.

I know mirroring maybe isn't the perfect solution, but I don't have a long enough VGA cable to hook up to the HW10 to use my splitter. (and I don't have anything for HDMI/DVI)

http://i41.tinypic.com/2cxw2rn.jpg

This one was my worst result of 30 photos taken at 1/1000s.

Amazing - the HW10 has pretty good processing, by all accounts, yet it has very very low input lag according to this. Very encouraging.

I am always astounded by the number of posts in every input lag thread that go on and about how input lag is all in your head, an imaginary concept, the vanity of crazed extreme gamers, and not noticeable to 'normal gamers' etc. And that's on AVSForum! Imagine the average consumer in a big-box store. Not to mention the confusion added by a chorus of other posters who will claim that the LCD response time of [4ms, 6ms, whatever] means that it is a low lag TV and great for gaming, when it may have 150+ ms of input lag.

My personal pet peeve is all the folks who, in the midst of a discussion about input lag, including pictures of lag measurements, and a full explanation of what input lag is, and how it can affect your game even though you likely don't feel it, will interject with "Well, I use TV/projector X, and I don't feel any lag, so I think that one is okay." They're trying to be helpful, but they're more annoying because they're so common.

Simple Test:

Try moving your mouse in windows when using the VGA input on your projector.

Then try moving your mouse again using the HDMI input.
The movement will be more sluggish.

I own an ax200u and ae3000 and a 6500UB.
The differences are substantial.

Anyone with a brain stem would realize lag does exists and yes it does mess with your game.

We should start a watch dog group for this, somthing like the Association of Gaming Input Lag Exposure, or A.G.I.L.E.

What we should DEMAND in new projs is a menu option to run the proj with all extra picture enhancements turned off and in 1-1 display mode made for using computers. HTPC with films and gaming is 99% of my use anyway. And there the display adapter is doing most of the work anyway.

AND, we want 75Hz/96Hz/100Hz possibilities for a smooth reproduction without jerking/stuttering. Many new projs today have only 60Hz as the highest poss. Not good enough.

Excellent Point! Since there are several criteria that had been left behind when leaving CRT, there should be standard gaming certification levels that display devices could meet and advertise.

To start, the criteria should include motion blur, Hz, and of course input lag. To keep it simple for marketing, maybe it could be a scale from 0-10. Maybe rate each criteria from 0-100 and average them and then divide by 10.

Or how about a standard series of numbers to represent the criteria much like computer memory timing, like 42-47-60 to represent Blur-Lag-Hz and call it the Blurlaghz rating.

Hello,

Have any of you considered the sharp xv-z15000. Its a 1080p dlp with a gaming mode that bypasses any video processing. Sounds like what we are looking for.

Here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16047555#post16047555) one member says picture quality is amazing for its price.

Product sheet is here (http://www.aboutprojectors.com/Sharp-XV-Z15000-projector.html)

Review is up in projectorcentral.com

Sounds interesting. I'd like to see some tests on it. Any idea what chip it's using for its picture processing? I ask because the Panasonic PT-3000, with its proprietary processor, also has a "game mode" to reduce lag by bypassing a lot of processing, but all it really does is improve processing times from really slow to somewhat slow.

Simple Test:

Try moving your mouse in windows when using the VGA input on your projector.

Then try moving your mouse again using the HDMI input.
The movement will be more sluggish.

I own an ax200u and ae3000 and a 6500UB.
The differences are substantial.

Anyone with a brain stem would realize lag does exists and yes it does mess with your game.

what is the best between these for gaming in your opinion? thanks!!

I think the big problem is an awareness issue. When gamers think of lag, they think of the game slowing down due to network latency. If the game isn't slowing down, they assume the game is playing "lagfree". What they don't realize is that even if the game is playing lag free, their screens may be displaying information that other gamers have already seen in the past. Therefore, they are reacting to "old" information. An example of this is in Gears of War. Often times, an opponent can kill you even though they don't appear to be even facing you because your tv/projector is taking so long to display the information being passed from the xbox. If you were using a display that had less input lag, they would be facing you and you would be able to react to the game properly.

Found this post in the PT-AE3000 Owner's Thread, for what it's worth. Not sure how much I do/don't trust Rock Band 2's calibration tools, but it's the only sort of measurement I've seen of the AE-3000u at all so far.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14991029#post14991029

Um, it looks to me like this is by far the most accurate way to judge lag for a display. All this screwing around with cameras and computers is noble, but flawed compared to the purity of data this $50 plastic guitar will give us.
I'm going to pick up one tomorrow for my Xbox360 and test my CRT, my Samsung A580 (cheap one, has no 120mhz mode), and my AE900U. When my Sanyo Z3000 comes in, I'll test that too. I'm betting the Z3000 gets the same result as the AE3000, about 30ms, the AE900U gets 15ms and the CRT gets 5ms. Any takers?
I love this geeky stuff, this is what avsforum is all about. :cool:

The input lag with my HD1 is often the difference between winning and losing a match in SF4. Great for movies and single player, but if you serious about multi you'll want something without as much lag.

The input lag with my HD1 is often the difference between winning and losing a match in SF4. Great for movies and single player, but if you serious about multi you'll want something without as much lag.

Good point. On the other side, some of us absolutely SUCK at twitch games, so the slightly greater suck caused by 15ms more lag is like pissing in a thunderstorm... that is, not a big deal. ;)

Um, it looks to me like this is by far the most accurate way to judge lag for a display. All this screwing around with cameras and computers is noble, but flawed compared to the purity of data this $50 plastic guitar will give us.
I'm going to pick up one tomorrow for my Xbox360 and test my CRT, my Samsung A580 (cheap one, has no 120mhz mode), and my AE900U. When my Sanyo Z3000 comes in, I'll test that too. I'm betting the Z3000 gets the same result as the AE3000, about 30ms, the AE900U gets 15ms and the CRT gets 5ms. Any takers?
I love this geeky stuff, this is what avsforum is all about. :cool:

How is the current method of using cameras and computers flawed?

How is the current method of using cameras and computers flawed?

- Cameras can be too slow, numbers blurred or hard to read.
- Issue with clock software because of PC timing/CPU power
- Lag of computer monitor or output to display device being tested

I guess "flawed" is the wrong word, the phrase " higher potential for error"
is probably more accurate. I drew those examples above from people's real-life experiences in this thread, so they *do* happen.

Whereas, with the Rock Band 2 guitar with optical sensor, there is no possiblity of error and it's much more simple. You hold the sensor up to the screen, the game flashes a white light, and you get the exact delay time. The only things that can cause variations are settings on the display (FI on/off, movie mode) and what kind of resolution (1080p/1080i/720p) which are things we want to test anyway.
Also, for console users it has the extra benefit of testing the lag using the system they are using to play games. (for PC gamers, the other method had the same benefit)

The input lag with my HD1 is often the difference between winning and losing a match in SF4. Great for movies and single player, but if you serious about multi you'll want something without as much lag.

I agree completely on the JVC HD1/RS1. The input lag is TERRIBLE. It has gotten to the point I don't enjoy playing my beloved Call of Duty W@W on it. Playing on my CRT I'm a great player. On my JVC I would say I drop to barily average. As must as I love my JVC with its superior picture quality to my 5 year old Hitachi CRT. I just can't stand the LAG!!! Both Ps3s are fed from the same internet feed so that is not the issue.

Anybody have any ideas on how to help with the lag on this particular Projector?

- Cameras can be too slow, numbers blurred or hard to read.
- Issue with clock software because of PC timing/CPU power
- Lag of computer monitor or output to display device being tested

I guess "flawed" is the wrong word, the phrase " higher potential for error"
is probably more accurate. I drew those examples above from people's real-life experiences in this thread, so they *do* happen.

Whereas, with the Rock Band 2 guitar with optical sensor, there is no possiblity of error and it's much more simple. You hold the sensor up to the screen, the game flashes a white light, and you get the exact delay time. The only things that can cause variations are settings on the display (FI on/off, movie mode) and what kind of resolution (1080p/1080i/720p) which are things we want to test anyway.
Also, for console users it has the extra benefit of testing the lag using the system they are using to play games. (for PC gamers, the other method had the same benefit)

- With a 1/125s shutter, you only get one frame, although you may catch a CRT in the midst of refresh, which is why you discard those pictures as measurements.
- The timer clock used in the measurement software is highly accurate. It is not related to the time stored or displayed in your PC.
- The reference display should be a 0 lag CRT.
- When you measure things manually, you can see the min / avg / max lag, not sure if Rock Band 2 gives you those numbers.

However, the Rock Band 2 is pretty fool proof and simple, and is a great option if available.

- With a 1/125s shutter, you only get one frame, although you may catch a CRT in the midst of refresh, which is why you discard those pictures as measurements.
- The timer clock used in the measurement software is highly accurate. It is not related to the time stored or displayed in your PC.
- The reference display should be a 0 lag CRT.
- When you measure things manually, you can see the min / avg / max lag, not sure if Rock Band 2 gives you those numbers.

However, the Rock Band 2 is pretty fool proof and simple, and is a great option if available.

Nice summary. If I was using the PC for gaming, I'd use the Clock method. Rock Band 2 for the consoles. I'll try to post some results up by tomorrow.

Well I did a baseline test on my CRT via SVIDEO & Composite, 3ms. (pretty close to zero) and my Samsung 52" A580 LCD, 65ms!!! Wow, it's not even a 120mhz interpolated version. I'm getting my Sanyo Z3000 tomorrow, I'll have the number for that and the ol' AE900U then.

(Another thing I need to keep in mind with this testing, is every foot you stand back from a speaker is about 1ms delay time. No big deal in most situations)

Well I did a baseline test on my CRT via SVIDEO & Composite, 3ms. (pretty close to zero) and my Samsung 52" A580 LCD, 65ms!!! Wow, it's not even a 120mhz interpolated version. I'm getting my Sanyo Z3000 tomorrow, I'll have the number for that and the ol' AE900U then.

(Another thing I need to keep in mind with this testing, is every foot you stand back from a speaker is about 1ms delay time. No big deal in most situations)

Hi, S_rangeBrew, how does the Rock Band lag measurement work? From your description, it sounds like it measures the time elapsed between sound coming from the speakers, and a flash on the screen. Am I right about that? What would be really nice is something that would measure the difference between the button press and a flash on the screen, and just leave the sound out of it. That would be even simpler and more accurate. Still, it sounds like a pretty good way of measuring lag, and something that more people could potentially do than the camera method.

Hi, S_rangeBrew, how does the Rock Band lag measurement work? From your description, it sounds like it measures the time elapsed between sound coming from the speakers, and a flash on the screen. Am I right about that?
No, the guitar has both a photosensor and a microphone built into it, and measures both sound and video lag seperately from each other, they have absolutely nothing to do with each other. I don't know why I include the sound lag information, I shouldn't have, it just made things more complicated, although it's important for the enjoyment of game like Rock Band.


What would be really nice is something that would measure the difference between the button press and a flash on the screen, and just leave the sound out of it. That would be even simpler and more accurate.
The only thing the button press test would do is measure the lag of the console itself to it's own controller input, it would have no relation to video lag, which is what the guitar photosensor measures. As far as anyone can tell the "controller lag" is pretty much zero on any video game, so it's not worth worrying about.


Still, it sounds like a pretty good way of measuring lag, and something that more people could potentially do than the camera method.

Yeah, from what I've seen, it seems to give pretty repeatable measurements, and there is very little to screw up. Once I confirmed it measured about 0ms on a CRT TV, I became completely confident in it's results.

I'm pretty amazed at the Terrible lag these new displays have vs. the old CRTs, I didn't realize it was that bad. I can see how someone using a laggy digital display + internet lag could really get shredded in online twitch games. I'm quite curious to test the projectors tomorrow.

I finished up my testing on on these three devices: An old Panasonic 32" CRT, A Samsung A580 52" LCD flat panel and a Sanyo Z3000 projector. Used the Rock Band 2 calibration system.

As expected the CRT has ZERO lag. Rock Band actually measured it as -3ms.. yes NEGATIVE 3ms. Now that's fast! LOL. If you are a competitive twitch gamer... CRT is your only option, I guess. I used SVIDEO and 480i for this test.

The Samsung A580 is a 1080P 60hz non-FI (Frame Interpolation) Best Buy exclusive model I got last year on their Black Friday sale. It's the same as an A530. This got 65ms lag time. ( I'm wondering if Samsung needs to work on their circuitry, because my friends 720P non-FI Samsung Plasma did even worse than this, 77ms lag time! )

Next up was the Sanyo Z3000 1080P 120hz FI-capable projector. I just put this in my home theater which I use for all my gaming, so I was a bit worried about what I'd get for results on this after seeing the bad numbers on the theoretically simpler Samsungs as pointed out above.
Turns out there was no need to worry. Even with the FI (Smooth Motion) turned on high, the lag was only 48ms. With the FI turned off, it improved to 30ms. Very nice.

So, there are some more data points for people to mull over. I will say the 77ms delay on my friends plasma was slightly noticable in Rock Band, I don't know if the 30ms will be that bad.
I found it interesting that a "High-End" 120hz FI projector was faster than a "low-end" non-FI plasma or LCD.
People with Rock Band 2 should start posting more results from their displays. :)

Very nice work! That's consistent with the previous measurements of the Z3000 that I've seen (all of the new "ultra-contrast" LCDs seem to clock in at about 30ms).

Very nice work! That's consistent with the previous measurements of the Z3000 that I've seen (all of the new "ultra-contrast" LCDs seem to clock in at about 30ms).

Yes, it seems with decent circuitry, even FI-capable displays can get 30ms or less. I don't know what wrong with the Samsungs I tested. Is this a common issue with that brand?

I know I was personally a bit concerned about getting the Z3000 because it was FI-capable, and I'd heard some horror stories of massive lag on *some* FI-capable displays. This should put those fears to rest, at least for the Z3000. I programmed a user mode called "GAME" (I like how you can name your custom modes) that has the FI turned off for extra bit of response time.

One nice thing about the Rock Band 2 auto-test is that it also tests for audio lag. I found out my Pioneer 1014TX has almost exactly the same lag as my Z3000, so no worries on lip sync issues! Bonus! :cool:

Yes, it seems with decent circuitry, even FI-capable displays can get 30ms or less. I don't know what wrong with the Samsungs I tested. Is this a common issue with that brand?

In my experience, yes. I had a Samsung 720p DLP with pretty bad lag a few years ago (and with deinterlacing involved, all games were downright unplayable - about a full half-second of lag). When the whole input lag issue started garnering notice, the Samsungs became somewhat notorious for having the worst numbers.

Btw, it would be great if someone could verify the under 16ms lag projectors so far (the Sony HW10, Infocus IN82/83, Epson 6100) with the Guitar Hero method.

And, of course, I would really love to see some numbers on the Sharp XV-Z15000 using Vyper Drive. Maybe I should see about procuring a used Rock Band 2 myself. It would be much more feasible to go to a projector store with XBox 360 in tow, and take a couple simple measurements, than to tote in my PC with digital camera and CRT monitor.

Great thread guys. I just started getting curious about projectors and this is the first issue I needed to look into. Keep up the good work.

New Epson 6100 owner here! In case anyone's wondering - it's the fastest projector I've ever used. Stunningly fast. As fast as the 1080/UB of last year, or any of the older Sanyo Z3/4/5s.

I am very happy with it. I couldn't ask anything more for a gaming device.

New Epson 6100 owner here! In case anyone's wondering - it's the fastest projector I've ever used. Stunningly fast. As fast as the 1080/UB of last year, or any of the older Sanyo Z3/4/5s.

I am very happy with it. I couldn't ask anything more for a gaming device.

Would it be possible for you to gather some measurements, using either the Rock Band 2 or dual-display PC method?

Glad to see this thread is still going. If consumers are aware, then manufacturers will start making low-lag projectors. I'll be keeping an eye out for what comes up and in the meantime I'll be enjoying my IN83 that I chose over JVC/PIO because of lag.

The IN83 is such a nice unit. Enjoy.

Would it be possible for you to gather some measurements, using either the Rock Band 2 or dual-display PC method?

Yeah, eventually. I don't have RB or anything of the sort, but I can do the PC method. It'll be a while, since I've put the projector away so I can finish the basement theatre room.

Keep in mind that *that* particular test tells us nothing about the lag on 720p or 1080p feeds, only composite 480i feeds, which is unlikely to be the majority's gaming method. I don't have a modern laptop that'll output any HD res. However, I am absurdly sensitive to lag, and this thing gives me a giant grin on my face.

For those who may not recall, the Epson 6100 clocked in at about 16ms earlier in the thread.

Yeah, eventually. I don't have RB or anything of the sort, but I can do the PC method. It'll be a while, since I've put the projector away so I can finish the basement theatre room.

Keep in mind that *that* particular test tells us nothing about the lag on 720p or 1080p feeds, only composite 480i feeds, which is unlikely to be the majority's gaming method. I don't have a modern laptop that'll output any HD res. However, I am absurdly sensitive to lag, and this thing gives me a giant grin on my face.

Does the projector have a VGA input? You could hook up the laptop to that...that would probably provide the lowest lag number. 480i would provide the worst case scenario. All other inputs should fall somewhere in between.

Good news! A spec sheet has just been released for the new Infocus SP8602. It uses the same 10-bit Pixelworks video processor as the IN83/82, so it will have the same low lag!

And unlike the IN83 and IN82, it has lens shift, so you won't need a freaking 20 foot ceiling to install the thing. Since the lack of lens shift (combined with absurd projection angle) was the one thing that put the IN83 out of the running for me, this is looking like my new projector of choice.

Good news! A spec sheet has just been released for the new Infocus SP8602. It uses the same 10-bit Pixelworks video processor as the IN83/82, so it will have the same low lag!

And unlike the IN83 and IN82, it has lens shift, so you won't need a freaking 20 foot ceiling to install the thing. Since the lack of lens shift (combined with absurd projection angle) was the one thing that put the IN83 out of the running for me, this is looking like my new projector of choice.

For what it's worth, I project a glorious 133" picture from only a 7-1/2 foot high ceiling by slightly tilting the IN83 upward. It yields a slight skew, but nothing that is ever noticed by anyone. Nearly 100 people have seen the image from my setup, and not one of them noticed anything but a huge bright sharp picture.

I hope the new Sony that replaces the HW10 has the same low input lag. I have a feeling that as HT projectors get more and more processing, it will start becoming a real chore to find low input lag models.

That Sony has the Bravia-2 engine, right? That's a pretty fast unit.

I agree, though, everything seems to be getting slower. I'm very happy with my Epson 6100 and for gaming, I really don't need a unit that's fancier. I didn't want to wait another generation just to be disappointed! In fact, I'm mad I didn't buy last year's Epson 1080UB...

I've got my eyes on the Infocus SP8602 too. Can't wait to see some latency numbers on it. I think the specs mentioned motion smoothing, so hopefully it can be turned off easily.

Anything at CEDIA that might interest us low-lag gamers?

Anything at CEDIA that might interest us low-lag gamers?

I suppose we can hope that Sony's successors to the HW-10 can match it in lowness of lag.

I am interested to buy a 1080p DLP projector only for games.

I am going to choice the Mitsubishi HC3800 or the Optoma HD20.

The HC3800 use the Texas Instrument DDP3021 video processor and the Optoma HD20 use the Pixelworks PW392.

I read the PW390is one of the fastest processors, but the PW392 probably is a new chip...anyone know this chip?

And the Texas Instrument DDP3021? This is good?

Thank you,

NABCS

Well I've been looking for a 'gaming' projector to upgrade to for a while now as my Infocus7210 is on the way out. It's been a great machine for gaming with very little lag. Anyway, after looking around and reading far too many articles/reviews I've just ordered a Sony HW15. It's not quite available yet here in the UK but I'm hoping stock will arrive for delivery next week. When it arrives I'll try a calibration with Rock Band and see how it compares to my 7210 then post my results here. The 7210 measured 33ms of lag in RB.

Cheers
SIK

The Panasonic AE4000 has a gaming mode. How fast it is, I am not sure...

Good news...

I sent an email to Mistsubishi asking the use of Pixelworks DNX on the new model HC3800 and the response was "Yes,.....you are correct!".

NABCS

Hey SIK - so how's the HW15 for gaming? Did you measure the input lag?

Hi Bubba,
With the hw15 being delayed over here I actually switched my order to the new Panasonic AE4000. I was seduced by the 'game mode' option (Fast Frame response). It arrived yesterday so after a quick setup I did some measuring with Rock Band 2. Here are the results

Frame Response - Frame Creation - lag
==============================
Fast - Off - 33ms
Normal - Off - 44ms
Normal - 1 - 84ms
Normal - 2 - 135ms
Normal - 3 - 179ms
Fast - 3 - 183ms

No real surprises there. Frame creation introduces noticeable lag and it's completely unplayable in mode3. Also note that setting Fast frame response does not override the frame creation. For gaming you need to set fast frame response and turn frame creation off, but when you do it's fine for gaming. Whether this is good enough for the uber-picky I don't know. But having played a few games of Super Stardust HD and Geo Wars 2 I noticed no difference from the lag on my 7210 so I'm a happy gamer. :D

Hey SIK, thanks for taking the measurements on the AE4000. Question: can the AE4000 remember different modes so that you can change from, say, Normal Frame Response/FC2 to Fast Frame Response/FCoff with the touch of a button? I'd hate to have to dig through menus each time I change from watching a live football game to playing Madden.

has anyone tested any of the newer JVCs, like the RS-10/20?

I'm interested in the RS-15, but I won't if it is terrible for gaming.

Perhaps the HW15 would be the better choice.

Hey SIK, thanks for taking the measurements on the AE4000. Question: can the AE4000 remember different modes so that you can change from, say, Normal Frame Response/FC2 to Fast Frame Response/FCoff with the touch of a button? I'd hate to have to dig through menus each time I change from watching a live football game to playing Madden.

Hi Bubba, not sure I'll check when I have time. The 4000 has 15 memory slots for saving various presets (have one for gaimes and one for film) but haven't checked if it saves the frame creation and frame response mode. I'll check later and post back.

has anyone tested any of the newer JVCs, like the RS-10/20?

I'm interested in the RS-15, but I won't if it is terrible for gaming.

Perhaps the HW15 would be the better choice.

Hi Macbuster,
I can give you my short experience with the rs10.
I bought 2weeks ago the rs10 and because I can't place it yet in my HT i just tested on a blank wall for the games and some blurays. I was scared that there would be much lag in games.
And I can say that i haven't seen any difference between my SXRD retro projection tv and the RS10.
I tried games like uncharted 2, killzone 2, and street fighter 4. I haven't noticed any lag.
I play a lot, games like battlefield bc and 1943 online so for me it would be a problem if there was lag in shooters.

I played once guitar hero on my sxrd, and there was a lot of lag(it was just unplayable), but i could set the tv on game mode and the lag was gone.
So i think if you play a lot of rock band and guitar hero, you will have problems with the rs10/rs15
But for other games it will be good.

I think if lag in games was that much of a problem with the rs10 then we would have seen many complaints online. But till now i haven't seen any.
And you know how the internet works, you will see people with problems rather then people saying how much they like the product.

If you can test the projector yourself, i would do that before buying.
I haven't noticed lag in mine.

Hey SIK, thanks for taking the measurements on the AE4000. Question: can the AE4000 remember different modes so that you can change from, say, Normal Frame Response/FC2 to Fast Frame Response/FCoff with the touch of a button? I'd hate to have to dig through menus each time I change from watching a live football game to playing Madden.

Hi Bubba, I've checked and there's good and bad news. The 4000 only seems to save settings which have been altered under the 'picture' menu so the frame creation mode and dynamic iris etc. are saved.:) The frame response option does not appear to be saved (this appears under the 'option' menu) so needs to be changed manually as far as I can tell.:(
SIK

Thanks for the info SIK!

Hi SIK, wonder if you check to see whether games look any different when CFI is applied ? I know there are input lags but FPS only dominate about 30% of my gaming. 50% of the time I do not need lag-free response so I am wonder if engaging CFI and Clarity Processor changes the look of the game. Thanks.

Hi ed,
I've had a quick look at something a little less lag sensitive (Oblivion) and using Frame Creation does have an effect on the motion. It does appear slightly smoother although the effect is far less pronounced than when viewing film. It's most pronounced in mode 3 (as you'd expect) but even in Oblivion 200ms lag is not something I like to have.
SIK

SIK, I know you looked at the HW-15, but did you look at the JVCs?

I would be very interested in the RS-15, if the input lag is low enough (it does use a REON, which I know is a bad sign).

Did your research reveal anything concrete with the RS-15 or the RS-10?

Without positive confirmation that the RS-15 has low lag, I will likely be picking up the HW-15, which I believe is confirmed to have low lag. I'll live without the 120hz for sports.

Thanks. Not entirely surprising, console games usually have 30-60 fps. I am still very much on the fence whether to move from vw60 to AE4000, 8500UB or vw85.

I read through the whole thread and searched through AVS but could find nothing on my projector...Marantz VP15S1. I have the 360 feeding into a Denon 3808ci receiver with the processing in the receiver off. The XBOX is set to output 1080p and the projector is set at 1080p.

The only setting I could find on framerate on the projector is:
FRC (Frame Rate Conversion)
Auto 1 : Frame Rate Conversion function is basically off. However FRC turns on automatically
depending on vertical frequency of input signal. Normally, use this mode.
Auto 2 : Use this mode when the image stops momentarily.
60Hz : Frame Rate Conversion function is “On”. (59.94Hz fixed)
50Hz : Frame Rate Conversion function is “On”. (50.00Hz fixed)
48Hz : Frame Rate Conversion function is “On”. (47.95Hz fixed)

Any advice on the best way to set this up. Anyone using a Marantz to game. Wondering about the lag and what I can do to minimize it.

For those who may not recall, the Epson 6100 clocked in at about 16ms earlier in the thread.

Any idea how the 8100 will compare to the 6100 in frame delay? If the 8100 is as fast as it's predecessor I may be enticed away from the Panny AE-4000U. According to the measurements I've seen in this thread the 4000 in game mode has twice the lag of the 6100. 16 vs 33.

Edit: One hint that the 8100 may be as fast as the 6100 is that it does not have many of the new processing features like frame interpolation which can cause frame delay... Here's to hoping that the 8100 is a "THE" Gaming projector of the season at only $1500!!!

Hi Bubba, I've checked and there's good and bad news. The 4000 only seems to save settings which have been altered under the 'picture' menu so the frame creation mode and dynamic iris etc. are saved.:) The frame response option does not appear to be saved (this appears under the 'option' menu) so needs to be changed manually as far as I can tell.:(
SIK

I just got my AE4000. You are right SIK about the frame response not being saved, but that's actually ok because I just keep it always set to Fast. Then, if I set frame creation to level 2 (e.g for live sports) using a memory load, the frame response Fast setting gets overidden anyway. So the memory feature actually works great.

Hi Bubba,
With the hw15 being delayed over here I actually switched my order to the new Panasonic AE4000. I was seduced by the 'game mode' option (Fast Frame response). It arrived yesterday so after a quick setup I did some measuring with Rock Band 2. Here are the results

Frame Response - Frame Creation - lag
==============================
Fast - Off - 33ms
Normal - Off - 44ms
Normal - 1 - 84ms
Normal - 2 - 135ms
Normal - 3 - 179ms
Fast - 3 - 183ms

No real surprises there. Frame creation introduces noticeable lag and it's completely unplayable in mode3. Also note that setting Fast frame response does not override the frame creation. For gaming you need to set fast frame response and turn frame creation off, but when you do it's fine for gaming. Whether this is good enough for the uber-picky I don't know. But having played a few games of Super Stardust HD and Geo Wars 2 I noticed no difference from the lag on my 7210 so I'm a happy gamer. :D

Hey SIK, I had another question for you. I got my AE4000 yesterday and when I played Rock Band 2, I felt like the lyrics were a little blurrier than when I played RB2 on my old Optoma H79 (DLP). So, I had an idea of turning on frame creation to level 2 to see if that would make the scrolling lyrics clearer, thinking that the lag would be no big deal in this particular game since I can calibrate to make up for it.

And, it kind of worked, but not perfectly. The lyrics ended up being clearer for sure, but the lyrics now stutter -- i.e. they will be really smooth for a few seconds, then seemingly pause for a frame or two, then skip ahead to catch up. It's annoying enough that I went back to FC off.

If you get a chance, can you try the same thing?

Hey SIK, I had another question for you. I got my AE4000 yesterday and when I played Rock Band 2, I felt like the lyrics were a little blurrier than when I played RB2 on my old Optoma H79 (DLP). So, I had an idea of turning on frame creation to level 2 to see if that would make the scrolling lyrics clearer, thinking that the lag would be no big deal in this particular game since I can calibrate to make up for it.

And, it kind of worked, but not perfectly. The lyrics ended up being clearer for sure, but the lyrics now stutter -- i.e. they will be really smooth for a few seconds, then seemingly pause for a frame or two, then skip ahead to catch up. It's annoying enough that I went back to FC off.

If you get a chance, can you try the same thing?

Hi Bubba,
I tried this on mine and can see the same effect. The lyrics are slightly blurred with FC switched off and much clearer in mode2 but there is a slight jump every few seconds. I found mode1 was ok, the lyrics looked clearer but without the jumping (although not as clear as in mode 2). I've generally left FC off in the game mode I've saved on the projector (colour=dynamic, FR = fast, FC = off, DI = on)

Cheers
SIK

If anyone with a HW15 who can measure input lag (with a music game or CRT) could post their findings, that would be great.

If anyone with a HW15 who can measure input lag (with a music game or CRT) could post their findings, that would be great.


I am a few days away from getting my projector up, and I will be purchasing a new RB2 guitar simply for the delay/lag setup that it offers.

I will post my findings here.

Got it yet MacB?

I have a hd20 and now a Epson 8100 and both projectors are totally awesome for 1920x1080 pc gaming.

I am very sensitive to mouse/video lag and find that both run as smooth as my 30inch computer LCD.

I do not own an xbox360 so I cant tell you the exact input lag.

Any idea how the 8100 will compare to the 6100 in frame delay? If the 8100 is as fast as it's predecessor I may be enticed away from the Panny AE-4000U. According to the measurements I've seen in this thread the 4000 in game mode has twice the lag of the 6100. 16 vs 33.

Edit: One hint that the 8100 may be as fast as the 6100 is that it does not have many of the new processing features like frame interpolation which can cause frame delay... Here's to hoping that the 8100 is a "THE" Gaming projector of the season at only $1500!!!

The real answer is to look at what video processor it's using. Does it have the sluggish Reon of the upper tier Epsons, or does it use the the same Pixelworks processor as the 6100?

If you find using HDMI or components input sluggish try using the VGA input since most of the video processing is not available when using VGA. However not all 1080p projectors support 1920x1080/60hz over VGA.

I'm confused... I just read about projector input lag today, and found this thread. I'm considering the Panasonic PT-AE4000U for my projector.

Doesn't input lag also affect movie soundtracks, and syncing sound between the audio output device (receiver) and the video output device (projector)?

If the projector is so far out of sync, doesn't that throw off the audio? Won't the audio coming out from the receiver be "ahead" of the video coming out of the projector?

I don't understand how input lag can affect gaming but not affect showing movies also.

Input lag does affect movies too, but it's just more noticeable when playing video games. For instance, the AE4000 I have has about 33ms of lag in its fastest mode (no frame interpolation, and fast frame on). At that speed, neither gaming nor movies are noticeably laggy. But when I turn frame interpolation onto setting 1, the gaming lag is noticeable while the movie audio/video lag is barely perceptible. Higher frame interpolation settings (2 or 3) makes even movies annoying as the lips aren't synced with the dialogue. In those cases, I can (and do) use my receiver's audio delay setting to compensate. For gaming, the receiver's audio delay feature doesn't really help, because all it would do is make it so that both audio and video lag far behind the game controller and game logic.

Ah, I get it now. Thanks.

For movies, you can use audio delay functions in a receiver or other audio processor to sync up the sound no matter what the projector lag is. But for gaming, that doesn't help (and I'm a gamer, too, so it helps to know about those frame settings).

Good info - thanks.

Great Thread!

I'm on the fence (like a bazillion others) between the AE4000 and the 8500UB. From what I've read on projectorcentral, the 4000 seems to be faster but is the 8500 still playable? And how do they compare to my current Sharp XV-Z3000 DLP? Will the move to LCD be disappointing as far as response time?

Argh! I wish I could test those damn things before blowing thousands on them.

Ah, I get it now. Thanks.

For movies, you can use audio delay functions in a receiver or other audio processor to sync up the sound no matter what the projector lag is. But for gaming, that doesn't help (and I'm a gamer, too, so it helps to know about those frame settings).

Good info - thanks.

+1

I can easily delay my audio at the receiver,
with my Panny AE4000 in "Mode 3" I moved the audio all the way to 240ms delayed and lips will again be in sync.

that's not the case with games which could cause me to hit a wall or get shot as I'd be responding that far behind the "action"

That Sony has the Bravia-2 engine, right? That's a pretty fast unit.

I agree, though, everything seems to be getting slower. I'm very happy with my Epson 6100 and for gaming, I really don't need a unit that's fancier. I didn't want to wait another generation just to be disappointed! In fact, I'm mad I didn't buy last year's Epson 1080UB...

Do you think that since the VW-85 has the Bravia 2 engine it would be have the same low input lag as the HW10 and HW15? I know the Bravia engine 2 may be unlocked in different ways for the VW-85, but turning off those frame creation features may let the VW-85 be as lag free as the lower priced Sony models. Any thoughts?

Do you think that since the VW-85 has the Bravia 2 engine it would be have the same low input lag as the HW10 and HW15? I know the Bravia engine 2 may be unlocked in different ways for the VW-85, but turning off those frame creation features may let the VW-85 be as lag free as the lower priced Sony models. Any thoughts?

I believe the HW15 uses the Bravia Engine 2 as well. If there is any input lag differences it may be down to the 120Hz on the VW85.

I believe the HW15 uses the Bravia Engine 2 as well. If there is any input lag differences it may be down to the 120Hz on the VW85.

I wonder if you can turn the 120 hz off....or I believe that may be inherent to the panels used in the VW-85.

I wonder if you can turn the 120 hz off....or I believe that may be inherent to the panels used in the VW-85.

I believe with the motion enhancer off the frames are just repeated to achieve 1080/120. No idea whether it yields any benefit to make the image more clear/crisp.

Played MW2 on the Panny 4000 and it was awesome...lag free. No worries. I am an avid FPS gamer, and I would have noticed. I even set the FI and the frame response to the worst levels to induce input lag.....and then it was unplayable. But with the best settings you are worry free:D

Played MW2 on the Panny 4000 and it was awesome...lag free. No worries. I am an avid FPS gamer, and I would have noticed. I even set the FI and the frame response to the worst levels to induce input lag.....and then it was unplayable. But with the best settings you are worry free:D

I never noticed any input lag on Mits HC5000, VW60 and AE3000. Now I am wondering what Dark Frame Insertion on VW85 would look like in games.

I never noticed any input lag on Mits HC5000, VW60 and AE3000. Now I am wondering what Dark Frame Insertion on VW85 would look like in games.

I have a feeling that most mainstream pj's are fine for gaming, and that some people are really into trying to measure the lag, which is probably tough to accurately do.

Great Thread!

I'm on the fence (like a bazillion others) between the AE4000 and the 8500UB. From what I've read on projectorcentral, the 4000 seems to be faster but is the 8500 still playable? And how do they compare to my current Sharp XV-Z3000 DLP? Will the move to LCD be disappointing as far as response time?

Argh! I wish I could test those damn things before blowing thousands on them.

Any new info about the 8500? Faster than 33ms over the Panny would be helpful. I am 45% Bluray 45% FPS and 10% other.

I am running an RS10 and have always thought the input lag was managable. today as usual I was the host of mw2 on xbox and for the first time I have really looked at kill cam replays...man there were really 'some parts missing!' I thought I fired 3 bullets before I got akimbo'ed...kill cam shows 1 fire only.

I got the European model of Epson 8500UB (EH-TW5500) today and just measured its input lag (indirectly, since I don't have a CRT to compare to). I hope I managed to disable all settings that would affect input lag. (No frame interpolation etc.)

According to a review, my monitor (LG W2600HP) has input lag between 0 and 16 ms (see http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2008/review-lg-w2600hp-part14.html). I took some pictures which show that Epson 8500UB / TW5500 is 30-40 ms slower than my monitor. In total, I believe Epson's lag is around 45 ms.

I noticed some lag moving a PC mouse cursor on the desktop but when I played Bayonetta demo on PS3 and some other demos on XBox 360 they felt just fine to me. Epson 8500UB should be good enough for casual gaming, but there is definitely some lag.

I got the European model of Epson 8500UB (EH-TW5500) today and just measured its input lag (indirectly, since I don't have a CRT to compare to). I hope I managed to disable all settings that would affect input lag. (No frame interpolation etc.)

According to a review, my monitor (LG W2600HP) has input lag between 0 and 16 ms (see http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2008/review-lg-w2600hp-part14.html). I took some pictures which show that Epson 8500UB / TW5500 is 30-40 ms slower than my monitor. In total, I believe Epson's lag is around 45 ms.

I noticed some lag moving a PC mouse cursor on the desktop but when I played Bayonetta demo on PS3 and some other demos on XBox 360 they felt just fine to me. Epson 8500UB should be good enough for casual gaming, but there is definitely some lag.

This is disappointing.

I guess I'll have to remove this one from my short upgrade list.

Art can't review the new LG CF181D soon enough.

Any news regarding input lag on Mitsu HC3800, Sony HW15 and Epson 8100?

Yeah. I posted something in another forum about the 8100. I measured it with rock band at 43ms if I remember correctly. However, I am going to try the 360 to the Epson with VGA only and see if I can get a better number. I will try to remember that for tonight.

I finally got around to testing the input lag on my HW15, using Rock Band 2.

It got between 24ms and 26ms on almost every attempt. This appears to be an excellent result.

I should also note that this was also running though my Onkyo receiver, rather than a direct hookup from my PS3 to my PJ. It may go even lower if I were to remove my receiver from the signal chain.

I finally got around to testing the input lag on my HW15, using Rock Band 2.

It got between 24ms and 26ms on almost every attempt. This appears to be an excellent result.

I should also note that this was also running though my Onkyo receiver, rather than a direct hookup from my PS3 to my PJ. It may go even lower if I were to remove my receiver from the signal chain.

What model is your Onkyo?

What model is your Onkyo?

805

I'm sure if it was the 875, with the Reon, it would have shown much worse results.

Very good results indeed!!! However, why must you mock me Mac??? :D

I have the 875 :|

However, I have taken that out of the chain when I have run some of the tests. This suddenly puts the HW15 up there.

If you can get a number without the 805 I will post that to my Projector and lag times thread.

However, I am thinking it will be comparable to the HW10 at 16ms.

Also, what is a good receiver that doesn't induce lag? I guess something without the Reon.

thanks for the hw15 and tw8100 lag results, what about Mitsu3800/6800?

I'm currently looking for a new PJ too. And as I got addicted to competitive RockBand 2 playing low inputlag is a pre-req for my new toy aswell.

Currently I own a Sanyo PLV-Z2000, does anyone know the input lag for this one? RB2 calibration with the guitar does not work for me for unknown reasons, so I don't have that option.

The new PJ possibly should have less input lag than it.

Actually I was aiming for a Sanyo PLV-Z3000, but as I browsed through this thread I read multiple times the PLV-Z700 should have pretty low input lag because of the fast pixelworks PW390 processor.

I would be willing to sacrifice a bit of picture quality for better response time btw...

In comparison how do they relate?

Sanyo PLV Z3000 - 30ms (out of this thread)
Sanyo PLV Z2000 - ? ms
Sanyo PLV Z700 - ? ms

Thanks in advance :)

SIK, does the input lag become better if you turn the following off:
DYNAMI IRIS, CINEMA REALITY, DETAIL CLARITY NR, and of course FRAME CREATION on your AE4000?

-Thanks in advance

Did anyone come up with any final numbers using both the Panasonic PT-AE4000 with Yamaha RX-V3900?

Yeah. I posted something in another forum about the 8100. I measured it with rock band at 43ms if I remember correctly. However, I am going to try the 360 to the Epson with VGA only and see if I can get a better number. I will try to remember that for tonight.

Whoah! Are you sure?! How could it possibly be that much slower than the 6100? I thought it was only supposed to be a minor update to it!

I am so glad people are starting to investigate projector lag.

I am an avid gamer and have working this problem for years.

First of all, those of you who say projector lag is minimal and not noticable
are clueless.

Take a AE3000, ae4000, or ae2000. Plug your computer up via VGA connector and move your mouse around in Windows.
Not much lag right? ( still too much for my taste )...

now do the same thing but use the HDMI input on the projector.....

the mouse lag is SUBSTANTIALLY worse...and yes this is with FI off and frame response on fast and all that sh*t that any gamer would obviously check for.

For some reason VGA always tends to be faster.

The VGA input in the Epson 6500UB is faster then any of the Panny AE's.
I know because I own all 3 of them including the Epson 6500UB.

The Epson is definitley faster then the Pannies. I am only refering to the VGA inputs. HDMI is pointless to test on any of these projectors.

Also, you will always see more lag if you are outputting a non-native signal.
Non-native signals need to be scaled which also adds lag.
The native rez'es are listed in the manual.

My question is, has anyone compared the IN82 or IN83 VGA input to the Epson 65k , 81k or 85k side by side? I'd love to know.

Has anyone tested the LG CF181D?? I wonder if the Lcos tech is just faster....

PS: HDMI only as I will be using it for games.

Any new tests on the Epson 8500? Maybe some rockband 2 tests to atleast?

Still on the hunt for the right projector =/

50% movies/40% gaming/10% TV

Looking for something that can provide minimal input lag. As it will be used for Gaming. Anyone know anything I could get? For around UNDER 3G?

^Last years Sony HW10 or this years Sony HW15

or last years Epson 6100

Any new tests on the Epson 8500? Maybe some rockband 2 tests to atleast?

Still on the hunt for the right projector =/

50% movies/40% gaming/10% TV

I get 79ms video delay with the 8500 and Rock Band 2, but that's running through my Onkyo TX-NR1007. I do have the 1007 set to gaming mode, through resolution to minimize any in-AVR processing, but with the 120ms detected HDMI lipsync for the 8500 (compared to 38ms for my previous projector - the Sanyo PLV-Z2000), I have to use 254ms audio delay and 79ms video delay in Rock Band 2 to make it perfectly playable. I have all frame interpolation, super res, etc. disabled. With HDMI lipsync disabled, RB2 detects 134ms of audio delay induced by my Onkyo, even in Direct mode.

That said, I don't notice it in my other games, even with online play... and the 8500 is so beautiful with movies that I can live with the input lag for gaming.

Any other Epson 8500UB owners care to chime in on input lag results. So far I have seen one poster say there getting around 45ms while another says around 75ms. I am particularly interested in users that are running the HDMI or Component cable directly from the console to the projector with all of the enhanced image processing options off or at a minimum.

I really want to pull the trigger on this projector but am hesitant due to the fact that I will use it 50% of the time for gaming and am very picky when it comes to input lag. Like a previous poster said when I press the button for mega man to jump he darn well better jump instantaneously. My current Sony Triton CRT has spoiled me greatly in this regard. I have recently played on a few plasmas at friends houses and have noticed varying degrees of input lag, from barely noticeable (Samsung B650 model) to absolutely horrible (Dynex plasma I think). I'm afraid I will run into the same issue with a digital projector.

Anyway any results, thoughts, or suggestions will be much appreciated.

Thanks

Don't notice any lag on my viewsonic pro8100:)

79ms seems like a lot for the 8500UB. Other people tested it much lower last year.

...or last years Epson 6100

+1

Some DLP models are very fast as well, especially the IN83.

This is for the 8500UB, picture is not very good but best I could get from my camera. The LCD TV is HDMI to DVI and the Projection is DVI-HDMI over a 50FT HDMI cable.

I tested response time on mouse and games, as far as I can tell its instant and I am coming off a DLP. Overall, very happy.

This is for the 8500UB, picture is not very good but best I could get from my camera. The LCD TV is HDMI to DVI and the Projection is DVI-HDMI over a 50FT HDMI cable.

I tested response time on mouse and games, as far as I can tell its instant and I am coming off a DLP. Overall, very happy.

http://s890.photobucket.com/albums/ac102/taskman33/?action=view&current=IMG_0105.jpg

Is the input lag of the LCD TV known?

Am I understanding that the epson 8100 is better for gaming than the 8500 because it has less video processing?

Also does anyone have numbers on the hc3800, good bad for gaming?

Am I understanding that the epson 8100 is better for gaming than the 8500 because it has less video processing?

Also does anyone have numbers on the hc3800, good bad for gaming?

From the HC3800 thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17618464#post17618464

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18705551#post18705551

These two posts with actual numbers don't agree with each other.

Anyone with any input on the BenQ W6000? I've been thinking of purchasing for September. It will be used for 75% gaming and 25% bluray.

Has anyone tested the LG CF181D?? I wonder if the Lcos tech is just faster....

PS: HDMI only as I will be using it for games.

I'm curious about this projector as well. I may be buying soon.

Im also wondering what the input lag for the Benq w6000 is, Has anyone tested this yet?

What about all the new 3d projectors, will they drastically improve input lag?

hello, i have a question about the infocus sp8602.
Have someone tested the input lag of this projector? ( maybe the same low-lag as the in83?)
thanks

Did anyone compile a comprehensive list into one place?

Didnt realize both threads were in the same forum area...
I posted this in the other thread, but i'll repost here:

Using Dell Studio Xps laptop
JVC RS40

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn26/gvjm2007/HDSDCOMP/LAG/th_IMG_1417.jpg (http://s300.photobucket.com/albums/nn26/gvjm2007/HDSDCOMP/LAG/IMG_1417.jpg)http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn26/gvjm2007/HDSDCOMP/LAG/th_IMG_1416.jpg (http://s300.photobucket.com/albums/nn26/gvjm2007/HDSDCOMP/LAG/IMG_1416.jpg)

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn26/gvjm2007/HDSDCOMP/LAG/th_IMG_1416-1.jpg (http://s300.photobucket.com/albums/nn26/gvjm2007/HDSDCOMP/LAG/IMG_1416-1.jpg)http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn26/gvjm2007/HDSDCOMP/LAG/th_IMG_1415.jpg (http://s300.photobucket.com/albums/nn26/gvjm2007/HDSDCOMP/LAG/IMG_1415.jpg)

JVC RS1
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn26/gvjm2007/HDSDCOMP/LAG/th_IMG_1393.jpg (http://s300.photobucket.com/albums/nn26/gvjm2007/HDSDCOMP/LAG/IMG_1393.jpg)http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn26/gvjm2007/HDSDCOMP/LAG/th_IMG_1392.jpg (http://s300.photobucket.com/albums/nn26/gvjm2007/HDSDCOMP/LAG/IMG_1392.jpg)

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn26/gvjm2007/HDSDCOMP/LAG/th_IMG_1391.jpg (http://s300.photobucket.com/albums/nn26/gvjm2007/HDSDCOMP/LAG/IMG_1391.jpg)http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn26/gvjm2007/HDSDCOMP/LAG/th_IMG_1390.jpg (http://s300.photobucket.com/albums/nn26/gvjm2007/HDSDCOMP/LAG/IMG_1390.jpg)

I wish I found this thread Before I purchased the JVc X3(rs40)

I have called JVC to see if this could be fixed by bypassing some of the chips that create the input lag, but so far they are looking in to it and will get back to me.

But I have done several test on my X3, and they are all consistent. avg 100ms delay.

My Main notice of this was playing on my PS3 NHL 11. I felt that everything I did was always to late and got frustrated with the game. When I finally played it on my Sony SXRD rear projection TV, the game play was so smooth and I did not notice any lag. When I hit the pass button it happened, and shots and so on.

Then I found this Thread.(Thanks AVS) and started to do some testing.

The Game Plays at 720p60(most games do at this time)

JVC wanted me to get a HDMI booster at first, Which did not think was the case. So the Testing began.

720p60 testing on X3
through My Receiver, with all video processing off and 25ft cable = 100ms delay

through My Receiver, with all video processing off and 25ft cable HDMI Lipsync off = 100ms delay.

Bypassed my Receiver 25ft cable direct connection = 100ms delay.

So here was the real test.

6ft cable direct connection = 100ms Delay

all done through Dell laptop with pictures

Can someone recommend me a projector for 100% gaming.

I want the lowest input lag possible.

It can't be DLP the rainbow effect really bothers me.

I would like something $1500 and under as I will be buying 3 for eyefinity gaming.

Thanks!

Can someone recommend me a projector for 100% gaming.

I want the lowest input lag possible.

It can't be DLP the rainbow effect really bothers me.

I would like something $1500 and under as I will be buying 3 for eyefinity gaming.

Thanks!

The input lag on the 2011 JVCs is the main reason i didn't get one. like stated above, measures at 100 ms.

The sony VW90 apparently measures at 16ms (i think that was the number, it was in this thread). Perhaps the lower end sony HW20/PRO1 and HW30 should have decent lag too?

Coming from a mostly lag-free Epson 1080 to a 80ms lag JVC RS40, I find games to be pratically unplayable. Even using the mouse on the HTPC feels delayed. Not entirely a deal-breaker since I mostly play keyboard&mouse games on the PC, but I didn't expect that.

So my question: do we have any idea what parts of the JVC processing is likely causing this lag? I understand it might not be inherent to the D-ILA tech. The color management, the video or upscaling (!) processor, something else?

I'm not expecting JVC to issue a fix since it's not part of the marketing specs, but I am just curious.

My issue with jvc is for the cost of this machine there shpuld be no lag issues whats so ever or allow us to turn off the extra proccessing

It's a very real but one that is likely to only get worse. It is almost like to get a lag free set up you have to go with cheap, lower tech displays because every new feature just adds further to the lag. 120+ fps, advanced scaling and processing, etc. So I would tell the last poster to get an older 720p DLP like the Optoma H78/79 if he can track one down cheap on the used market, but apparently rainbows ruin that.

Yeah I think your right the higher end models are just going to add to the lag. As much as I want to avoid DLP I think the HD66 or GT7000 or GT720 may be the way to go.

I agree to disagree, There should be a way to minimize input lag on all projectors by disabling any video processing. A lot of systems come with game mode.

I agree to disagree, There should be a way to minimize input lag on all projectors by disabling any video processing. A lot of systems come with game mode.
I will say that game mode on my Samsung LCD TV is still 2-3x laggier than my 720DLP projector was in native mode.

My Vango is quite a bit laggier than the Optoma was, in the 40-50ms range using Rock Band's tests. The Optoma was around 17ms.

I came across this tonight on http://www.hdfury.com/ "HDfury modules (HDfury1, Gamer, HDfury2 & HDfury3) are used worldwide by hardcore gamers to get rid of display’s Lags".

Could something like this really reduce the lag of a display?

I read the hole thread and I cannot find the responce times of the projectors I want to buy the Benq w6000 or the epson tw3200 (8350 in us).

Anyone that has numbers on those?

The panasonic ae4000 which seems like a perfect choise is way too expencive for me.

To contribute to this thread my acers H5360 responce time is measured through the link by taking a picture at 30ms, excellent.

The new (720P) Optoma GT750 is reported to have zero input lag.

Here is a link (http://www.projectorreviews.com/game-projector-blog/review-optoma-gt750-gaming-projector.html) to the review by Pete Connolly.

It looks like Pete is using a laptop display for his input lag test, so the projector does not have zero input lag, it has the same amount of input lag as his laptop.

When testing against a laptop with an unknown amount of input lag, a projector can prove that it has a lot of lag (by being significantly worse than the laptop's display), but it cannot prove that it has a small amount of lag.

But yes, I'd assume the Optoma GT750 does indeed have very low lag, it's just not zero.

Need some info:

I own a JVC RS25 and I use it for 60% movies and 40% gaming. I game on a PS3 and I play Modern Warfare 3 online (which of course needs a lag as low as possible). My receiver is a Onkyo 5008.

How do I know if a have lag with this setup?

You will have tons of lag on that JVC, that's for sure. Those projectors are known for their great image quality, but they do a ton of processing. It won't be ideal for twitch gaming.

How do I know if a have lag with this setup?

You can do a test, if you have the equipment. (http://tft.vanity.dk/)

Need some info:

I own a JVC RS25 and I use it for 60% movies and 40% gaming. I game on a PS3 and I play Modern Warfare 3 online (which of course needs a lag as low as possible). My receiver is a Onkyo 5008.

How do I know if a have lag with this setup?

I do not think you need to worry to much on projector lag. My projector is used 40% to 50% for gaming and I have a JVC RS1 which is likely worse than the RS25 for lag. We play MW3, Gears of War 3, & Battlefield 3. My son (13) ends up first or second on any of those games online (xbox live). I end up near the bottom most times but I do not think I can blame that on the projector lag.

Hi guys, does any one know the input lag of the following models, I am currently building a HT and am a national competing Tekken player so the slightest bit of lag hurts.
Mitsu HC9000
Sony HW30 and
Sony VW90
Any other 1080p preojectors that I should consider?

Thanks

I end up near the bottom most times but I do not think I can blame that on the projector lag.


You are not thinking creatively enough!! Of course your poor skills are due to projector lag!! :rolleyes:

Seriously - thanks to those who contributed the ideas about how to test for this. I am going to run the test on my Sony HS20 tonight to see if I can blame my poor FPS performance on lag and to see if I can add some justification to finally upgrade the sucker.:D

Anyone have any predictions what I'll see on a Sony HS20? I have played FPS's for a couple of years and have always felt a step slower than the competition - but have always just blamed it on my age.


Also - quick question - my laptop has both HDMI and VGA out. Any thoughts on which mode I should test it on? May just try both for shits and giggles.

In the Epson 5010 thread, there's the first lag test results - not great. Looks to be 60ms at least, not including the lag of the LCD screen used to compare with - I hope others can verify this!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=21294686&postcount=1546

Perhaps the Epson is out for me... anyone got any results on a Sony HW-20? Previous models have done very well.

Projectorreviews.com (http://www.projectorreviews.com/projector-pc-gaming-blog/acer-h9500bd-home-theater-projector-lag-test.html) posted lag test results of 80-100ms on the Acer H9500BD projector in 2D. The reviewer also says in his companion review that 3D lag was similar. See link for details.

Projectorreviews.com (http://www.projectorreviews.com/projector-pc-gaming-blog/acer-h9500bd-home-theater-projector-lag-test.html) posted lag test results of 80-100ms on the Acer H9500BD projector in 2D. The reviewer also says in his companion review that 3D lag was similar. See link for details.

It looks like with all features off it is hovering around a 30ms lag. Here are the results:
I swapped out both HDMI cables with new cables and of the same length (10′). They were the same length in the previous test as well. I think I may have had a bad HDMI cable in the previous test. All of the special features were turned off in my initial test, that is for sure. It is the first thing I checked when I powered on the projector. It looks like with all features off it is hovering around a 30ms lag. Here are the results:
http://www.projectorreviews.com/projector-pc-gaming-blog/acer-h9500bd-home-theater-projector-updated-lag-test-results.html

i think the same guy said

Ideally, input lag is zero (like we saw in the recently reviewed Optoma GT720)

http://www.projectorreviews.com/game-projector-blog/input-lag-a-second-look.html

It looks like with all features off it is hovering around a 30ms lag.That's more like it! So glad this turned out to be a testing error. 30ms is quite good.

I couldn't find any input lag data on the Benq W6000. I ran my own little test here:
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/5080/photo4lo.jpg
The W6000 is at 4:098, Laptop is at 4:108

But obviously my laptop has more input lag than the W6000 lol. I can say from first hand experience this afternoon gaming with MW3 on the 360 I could detect no noticeable lag which was my major concern.

I couldn't find any input lag data on the Benq W6000. I ran my own little test here:
The W6000 is at 4:098, Laptop is at 4:108

But obviously my laptop has more input lag than the W6000 lol. I can say from first hand experience this afternoon gaming with MW3 on the 360 I could detect no noticeable lag which was my major concern.

Anyone else get similar results for the BenQ? I am doing my homework prior to getting a PJ, would like a low lag one.

Doesnt look like the Epson 8700UB or 9700UB has been tested on this thread, from a quick search I did. Could anyone please test it out?

I just tested my Sanyo Z2000 using the method from http://tft.vanity.dk/

Results is consistently, and exactly, 16ms. That's SIXTEEN MILLISECONDS.

Sony VPL-HW20 aka VPL-VWPRO1. I know it's not adequately scientific because it's against an LCD, but still...

VGA clone on a Dell Latitude E5500, nVidia 160M.


https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=83f05ceb9854eb39&resid=83F05CEB9854EB39!289&parid=root

Sometimes it ties the LCD, and sometimes it's 16ms late. Assuming the LCD is a poor one at 16ms (unlikely, but possible), then this projector has 16-32ms lag, which is excellent.

just a quick input, I tested the Sony hw30 and the new Mistubishi Hc7800 the other day using the rock band 2 method in a store and got the following.
the Sony I was getting an average between 16 and 22ms.

with the Mitsu, I had to turn the frame rate conversion off as it was giving 80+ms. With it off however I was very impressed with around 18-24ms on average

The below list is a summary of all the projectors that have been tested. I’ve compiled as many as I can find here and other places. If I have missed any please add them to list. Make sure however, that you provide a source and not just info someone decided to post.
All of the results are of the lowest possible achieved or the averages. This is usually with most processing function lowered or turned off all together.

Best method for testing lag (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1131464)


Confirmed
Espon 8350 – 18.5ms
Espon 3010 – 100ms
Espon 5010 – 81.4ms
Sanyo Z200 – 16ms
Sony HW20 – 16-32ms

Not Confirmed
Espon 8500 – 45ms
Panasonic AE7000 – 30ms
(Above Source: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1377652)

Confirmed
BenQ W5000 – 50ms
Optoma HD800x – 30ms
Infocus X10 – 25ms
Panasonic AE300U – 30ms
Sony HW10 – 10-20ms
Sanyo Z3000 – 30ms
Panasonic AE4000 – 33ms
JVC RS1 – 50ms
JVC RS40 – 70ms

Not Confirmed
Sony HW15 – 25ms
Infocus IN82 – 10-20ms
JVC RS10 – 60-100ms
Espon 8500UB – 45ms
Acer H9500BD – 80ms
BenQ W6000 – 10ms
Sanyo Z2000 – 16ms
Sony HW30 – 19ms
Mistubishi Hc7800 – 18ms

*The "Not Confirmed" numbers are the ones that people have provided, but without any real proof. I'm not saying they didn't test the information, its just that we can't confirm it. No offense was meant to the testers.

TC, I didn't add your results because they were on par with your laptop. You need to test your laptop too see how much it lags.

Can anyone with a Benq w6000 confirm the above lag measurement? Thanks in advance.

snoopyman!!!

you did awesome job !!

I'm collecting same information that U did, but Its useless now :D


Expecting more update soon!!

Placed Snoopyman's compilation into a Google doc spreadsheet and shared it for anyone to add/edit.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0As2Nwz3oTRW1dElsRlMtbUZXVUFYbVhOS0stUVBUeHc

Anyone know how to embed a spreadsheet in a post?

Hey all, just found this lag test review...

RESULTS: The fastest projector we have in house at the moment is the Panasonic AR100U, which clocks in at a screaming fast 1.5 frame delay. Right on its heels is the Mitsubishi HC7800, at 2.0 frames lag time. Next in line were the Acer H9500 and Panasonic AE7000, both of which measured 2.5 frames in their game modes. The BenQ W7000 comes in at 3.0 frames. And bringing up the rear is the Epson Home Cinema 5010, with a pokey 5.5 frame delay in its fastest mode.

Frame interpolation systems slow things down on all models as you would expect. With these feature on their low settings, the Acer 9500 and the BenQ W7000 dropped to a sluggish 9 frame delay. (Hey, you just don't use frame interp while gaming). The Epson 5010 dropped to 8.5 frames and the Mitsubishi dropped to 5 frames. The Panasonic AE7000 was least affected by frame interpolation, dropping from 2.5 in game mode to 4.0 in Cinema with FI on low.


Source: http://www.projectorcentral.com/projector_news.cfm?2012-01-31-Gaming-tests-and-upcoming-reviews&entry_id=487

Never heard of the PT-AR100U, but again, I havent been looking... 2800 Lumen?! wow. Im off to search for related threads on this PJ!

Quick comment: HW30 is excellent for gaming.

See my point #4 in this post click me (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=21594882&postcount=2023)

Oh heck, I'll just paste the key area below:

"4) Gaming is great. I wasn't sure what to expect. I tried out Black Ops and it played very well in the regular mode. This game has some motion delay already built into it (acceleration when you turn) so it already hides the delay. To really test it, I played the demo of Sonic Generations. To me and my son there was a noticeable delay from pressing "A" to jump and Sonic taking the jump. I changed the setting to "game" and the delay went away! Zombie10ks measurements have been proven in my mind. (Ok, occasionally I thought there was a tiny tiny delay, but we know there is a 20-30ms delay --- I found it very acceptable).
"

... Altan

The Pansonic 100u is a relativly entry level projector, don't expect fantastic performance out of it, for gaming yes and brightness yes, but thats about as far as i would go. Seeing these figures have rested my nerved about ordering the Mitsu

Thought I would bump this thread, to good for it to vanish

Can anyone confirm the numbers for the Panasonic AE7000?

Can anyone confirm the numbers for the Panasonic AE7000?

I don't know what this translates to in MS, but nobody seems to take this as official.

Try this: it's from projector central

"RESULTS: The fastest projector we have in house at the moment is the Panasonic AR100U, which clocks in at a screaming fast 1.5 frame delay. Right on its heels is the Mitsubishi HC7800, at 2.0 frames lag time. Next in line were the Acer H9500 and Panasonic AE7000, both of which measured 2.5 frames in their game modes. The BenQ W7000 comes in at 3.0 frames. And bringing up the rear is the Epson Home Cinema 5010, with a pokey 5.5 frame delay in its fastest mode.

Frame interpolation systems slow things down on all models as you would expect. With these feature on their low settings, the Acer 9500 and the BenQ W7000 dropped to a sluggish 9 frame delay. (Hey, you just don't use frame interp while gaming). The Epson 5010 dropped to 8.5 frames and the Mitsubishi dropped to 5 frames. The Panasonic AE7000 was least affected by frame interpolation, dropping from 2.5 in game mode to 4.0 in Cinema with FI on low."

Assuming 60fps if my math is right those projector central numbers translate to:

Panasonic AR100U - 25ms
Mitsubishi HC7800 - 33ms
Acer H9500 - 41ms
Panasonic PT-AE7000U - 41ms
BenQ W7000 - 50ms
Epson 5010 - 91ms

With CFI things are significantly different:

Panasonic PT-AE7000U - 66ms
Mitsubishi HC7800 - 83ms
Epson 5010 - 141ms
Acer H9500 - 150ms
BenQ W7000 - 150ms

I don't know how accurate these numbers are but, if the 5010 is anything like the 8700UB I currently have, I believe 90-100ms is probably correct. That would make the AE7000 a significant upgrade over what I have as far as input lag is concerned. It also demonstrates that the Panny either does less with its CFI (which would be contrary to what I have read about it) or its CFI is very efficient.

These numbers ultimately don't line up well with the numbers posted above. I think quoting input lag as a frame delay does not mean much to a gamer who is used to seeing these sorts of measurements in milliseconds.

1 frame is roughly 16ms so your calculation is fine.

Keep in mind a lot of the numbers above have been tested using either a test that is controled by human reactions, such as GH using the calibration tool manually or there are no pictures for proof which is why the are "not confirmed".

Since the test above I have tested the HC7800 with the calibration sensor in rock band 2 and I was getting 32 ms. So I believe the projector central results are correct, I have one on order due to the results

Gaming on my PT-AE7000 so far has been great. It is much better than gaming on the 8700UB.