Input Lag of various projectors [Text View]

peteer01

09-22-08, 10:24 AM

One of Panasonic's new features is "game mode", and as I was thinking that I'd like this kind of frame rate prioritization available in my next projector (I haven't decided which yet, but I'd like to purchase in 2008) and wondered how much input lag current projectors actually have.
It got me wondering about my own projector, and I figured out an easy to test it.:

There's an input lag stopwatch at http://tft.vanity.dk/. Run that on a laptop/PC while outputting the same screen to your projector.
Take photos of the two screens. (multiple photos, since a 60 Hz refresh rate means we want multiple images to see fractions of a frame difference. Maximum ISO and shutter speed, since we don't care about grain as long as we capture a clear frame from each display.)

In my case, I used my old Sanyo Z3 at 800x600 through VGA, displaying the image in "true" mode which means no scaling. It was just a quick and dirty test and doesn't mean much, but some of the images are below.

If you can, please run this test with the same PC using different projectors, and post results here! Even if you only have one projector, the results would be helpful. If you have "game mode" or other settings, please try with different settings and see if lag changes.

Here are some results from my quick and dirty test with my Z3:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3114/2879294326_dbef9ea1bd.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2879294326/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3143/2879295896_c3592b3312.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2879295896/)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3155/2878463871_b9f3f6158d.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2878463871/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3264/2879299172_b6c64dbe18.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2879299172/)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3037/2879300838_4f6e1ed74d.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2879300838/)
More photos, if anyone needs them, but I think those show a pretty minimal lag. (Those were the first five I took...two of the remaining four showed some level of difference between the two, but primarily the same numbers, so maybe the frame delay difference is roughly 1/3rd of a frame, while the frames are (strangly) showing a 30ms pattern, so a 1/90th of a second difference for the laptop LCD screen and the projector LCD screen?)

To be clear, since a few people have touched on it below, this does not show the image lag of the projector, only the image lag vs. the screen it's being tested on. Results with other people using different LCD/CRT/Plasma/etc. displays to test their projectors are not cross compatible. Even two people using two similar laptops may show a different image lag due to different setups. That said, I still think this is a good idea to see more details with...and I'd really like to see people with multiple projectors or different settings on the same projector post their results, as those should be useful in direct comparison with each other.

Edit:
Visited Yodobashi Camera and tested a few other projectors:
AE200 - Game mode (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14735262#post14735262)
AE200 - Normal Mode (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14735326#post14735326)
TH-AE2000 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14735431#post14735431)
TW-1000 (Epson 1080) (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/TW-1000%20%28Epson%201080%29)

My thoughts: This is still apples and oranges in a sense. I'm interested in trying to do the same thing with the AE3000 and TW4000 (Epson 6500/7500) when they come out. What surprises me is that the Panasonics clearly seemed to have the worst image lag, which may be why they're the one marketing their new "game mode". The Sanyo and Epson both seem to have pretty similar performance to the AE200's game mode performance.

If it the Reon processor and/or other image processing options in the TW4000 can be turned off, it will be interesting to see whether or not the TW4000 has can reach the same minimal image lag as game mode on the AE3000. Nothing too super scientific, but interesting and fun, and I'm looking forward to hopefully doing the same with the new models as soon as possible.

(While unrelated to image lag, I was very unimpressed with how much dust the AE2000 had. When focusing to get the screen as close as possible, I was kind of shocked with the amount of dust in a 10 month old projector, and unlike the Sanyo, there's no way for a user to mitigate this...)

peteer01

09-22-08, 10:35 AM

Probably worth mentioning, two things I'm very interested in:

What is the lag of the AE3000 with "game mode" on, and with game mode off?

Will the cheaper 1080p Epson (TW3000/6100/7100) have less lag than the more expensive one (TW4000/TW5000/6500/7500)? The cheaper model has inorganic panels, while the more expensive one has inorganic panels and a Silicon Optix HQV Reon-VX coupled with PixelWorks 390 video processor. Will the panels and/or amount of processing done by the Reon-VX slow things down?

goku14139268520

09-22-08, 12:00 PM

Wow cool thread, I've been looking to buy a projector and am also an avid gamer. So in your experience, would you say that gaming (in hd) on a projector is comparable to gaming on any other hd display as far as input lag is concerned? I've been looking specifically at dlp projectors and have heard that dlp tech in general suffers from input lag most, might you have any input towards this statement?

keyser

09-22-08, 12:15 PM

Can this also be used to calibrate audio delay?

sisaacs

09-22-08, 01:04 PM

I thought you usually use a CRT for these tests since most LCD's have some input lag? Although most of the tests like this I've seen have been desktop type computers, I think this is the first one I've seen using a laptop.

peteer01

09-22-08, 01:32 PM

Wow cool thread, I've been looking to buy a projector and am also an avid gamer. So in your experience, would you say that gaming (in hd) on a projector is comparable to gaming on any other hd display as far as input lag is concerned?
I would say that I do not notice any significant input lag with this...but it's been my primary gaming display for nearly four years, and I've gotten quite used to it. Hooking a second Xbox 360 up to my 40" Sony Bravia I bought less than a year ago for some local network gaming with friends, I did not notice any difference in lag, although both are LCD based displays.
I thought you usually use a CRT for these tests since most LCD's have some input lag? Although most of the tests like this I've seen have been desktop type computers, I think this is the first one I've seen using a laptop.As I mentioned in my post, this is meant to be "quick and dirty". I don't have a CRT display, and I'm not about to lug a PC into that room just to use one of my two LCD displays instead of the LCD monitor on the laptop. If anyone is seriously considering buying a Sanyo Z3, I hope they don't take these tests too seriously.;)

The main reason I wanted to get these photos done now is that when I do buy my new projector, I can use the exact same program and laptop to test the other projector, and see if there's a discernable difference or not. (Comparing two people's tests could easily be apples and oranges, especially if people are using CRT displays)

I'll post more photos of the same type of setup with my new projector when I get it (still not sure if it's the Panny or Epson) but I'm looking forward to hopefully seeing some other people post some results of their own setups between now and then. :)

Cameron

09-22-08, 05:33 PM

Hmmm. I need to try this with my RS2 and Lumagen RadianceXD when I get a chance.

I would love to see how much real lag there is. It might also help me with my Rockband Expert level stuff :D

mdputnam

09-22-08, 07:34 PM

peteer01

09-22-08, 10:02 PM

How are you separating the lag caused by the laptop's additional hardware and software processing required to send a scaled video signal to the the auxiliary output of the laptop and the lag of the projector processing? And how do you account for variations between different graphics cards, computers, etc?You don't/can't. You can exchange hardware specs and try to figure out how differing systems compare, but basically, it's only really useful when using the same setup to test two different projectors or two different settings on the same projector.

That said, I'll be using the same laptop and settings to test my new projector, at which point comparing the results with my first post may be interesting for some. Surely I'm not the only person on these boards to have more than one projector in their house at some point.;)

ed_t

09-23-08, 12:52 AM

peteer01

09-23-08, 02:20 AM

In my opinion it may not be very useful. The image processing lag varies from scene to scene depending on the complexity of the scene at the time. The test may be able to reveal panel response time but I doubt it will be a sufficient indicator for image processing. A full digital path may be the way to go to minimize lag, ie no analog/digital conversion and no image processing, and you'll probably want to connect directly to the projector rather than through an av receiver.An Xbox 360 and PS3 can send 720/1080 feeds directly to the projector through a variety of methods, including HDMI, and I would not use a switch for my gaming console, specifically to avoid image lag.

I definitely get what you're saying about lag varying from scene to scene, but I can't think of a great way to test image lag with a constant video load. I thought about running the stopwatch windowed, with another video running, but that just introduces more variables that would vary when I do the test again with my new projector. If you have a better idea, please share it.

Is there a way to turn off non-critical in-projector video processing with Epsons? I'm assuming that's what the "Selective Frame Response" of the Panasonics ("game mode") do, but I'd like to see something similar to this with and without that option turned on to see if it shows a difference.

kriktsemaj99

09-23-08, 08:48 AM

In my opinion it may not be very useful. The image processing lag varies from scene to scene depending on the complexity of the scene at the time. The test may be able to reveal panel response time but I doubt it will be a sufficient indicator for image processing. A full digital path may be the way to go to minimize lag, ie no analog/digital conversion and no image processing, and you'll probably want to connect directly to the projector rather than through an av receiver.
I don't think the lag will vary from scene to scene. For any particular settings (noise reduction etc.) the processing pipeline should be fixed. Even though the algorithm may take the image content into account, the image content shouldn't change the lag.

Also, if an A/V receiver is not upscaling or processing the signal (which many don't do for HDMI, and in others it can be turned off), there shouldn't be any extra lag introduced.

I think the total lag for any display should be listed in the specs, just like LCD response time is. If just one manufacturer starts doing this because they think they have less lag than anyone else, it could start a new marketing war where everyone tries to get the lag down to a minimum.

Then the next problem will be that the sound lags because the audio delay through the receiver is more than the video delay and there's no way to adjust it. Notice how all receivers can add extra audio delay because there's a common belief that the video delay is longer, but I think that is rapidly changing and when the displays improve we'll all start complaining about the receivers! So it would be good to see people measure and report audio delay through their receiver as well as video delay through their display.

Cameron

09-23-08, 03:51 PM

How do you measure the audio lag from your reciever?

ed_t

09-23-08, 07:38 PM

An Xbox 360 and PS3 can send 720/1080 feeds directly to the projector through a variety of methods, including HDMI, and I would not use a switch for my gaming console, specifically to avoid image lag.

I definitely get what you're saying about lag varying from scene to scene, but I can't think of a great way to test image lag with a constant video load. I thought about running the stopwatch windowed, with another video running, but that just introduces more variables that would vary when I do the test again with my new projector. If you have a better idea, please share it.

Is there a way to turn off non-critical in-projector video processing with Epsons? I'm assuming that's what the "Selective Frame Response" of the Panasonics ("game mode") do, but I'd like to see something similar to this with and without that option turned on to see if it shows a difference.

Can't really think of a way. You could try have a changing solid color and complex background. I believe if you use HDMI input most of the post processing is automatically disabled. I had the Mits HC5000 for a year and when using VGA input most of the video enhancement feature was not available. If I remember correctly BenQ W5000/20000 also have game modes.

kriktsemaj99

09-23-08, 08:06 PM

How do you measure the audio lag from your reciever?
Here's one way: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12600927#post12600927

Even without measuring it's easy to tell if the lag is bad. Tune your receiver and a cheap portable radio to the same station, and see how bad the echo effect is. Many receivers have a mode that bypasses DSP processing and then you might get almost zero lag. But if you want bass management, equalization, etc. you may have 40ms or more audio delay. The Onkyo 805 was famous for having over 70ms. Match that with a display whose lag is very low and you have a lipsync issue that you can't solve.

tommyv2

09-24-08, 01:59 PM

If the Epson 720 or 1080UB was very great for lag, I would buy one immediately. These companies don't know what they're missing. A glowing recommendation on the Internet is sure to move some units. Maybe not a lot, but enough. I bet there are some super-fast projectors out there that some people would never consider, it's a shame.

With that being said, I'm still deathly afraid to buy anything other than an AX-200 or AE3000, since they're the only ones to specifically address processing lag. I've been gaming since the 80s, and my sensitivity to lag is brutal. If most projectors were like my Bravia in "Game" mode, that would suffice. If better than that, then awesome.

peteer01

09-25-08, 08:45 AM

So I figured the only meaningful comparison photos to my original post would have to come from an identical setup, so I'd have to be the one to take the photos. I decided to head down to Yodobashi Camera (where photo taking is actually expressly prohibited...;)) with my laptop and VGA cable and decided to try the same setup with all their 1080p projectors. Unfortunately, the ceiling mounted projector was out of the question, and the Z2000 and TW2000 (1080UB) still both had dead bulbs. (The Z2000 was dead when I first visited a few weeks ago.) That meant I could test the AE2000, the Epson TW1000 (1080), as well as the Panasonic TH-AX200, which, while 720p, has game mode like the up and coming AE-3000.

All the photos were taken in "A" (Aperture mode) with my 50mm f/1.4 wide open at ISO 1600 to capture these images with as little exposure time per frame as possible. These results are not scientific, I am not a professional at this, please consult your physician about what other alternatives to image lag may be appropriate for you, etc. etc.

AE200 - Game mode
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3002/2886724059_10a0cee620.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2886724059/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3184/2886724695_e18bae854c.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2886724695/)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3072/2886724747_35ce53a62d.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2886724747/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3223/2887559786_90cc9d1dea.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2887559786/)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3221/2887560468_e380456313.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2887560468/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3073/2886726735_cebf08db40.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3228/2886727377_155afd167c.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2886727377/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3046/2886727987_75256e1f76.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2886727987/)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3088/2886728517_e4b6bf8935.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2886728517/)

peteer01

09-25-08, 08:58 AM

AE200 - Normal mode

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3041/2886754181_ddf5a2d0b4.jpg
(Just before switching from Game (bottom) to Normal (top).)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3140/2886754855_827ed4fd5c.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2886754855/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3284/2887589942_df0346da26.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2887589942/in/photostream/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3282/2886756395_401d0ef66d.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2886756395/in/photostream/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3097/2886757177_fdae9f7467.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2886757177/)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3063/2886758163_ea2e67f5e6.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2886758163/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3062/2886759131_09251a2b02.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2886759131/)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3053/2886759915_09b3985836.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2886759915/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3096/2887597174_6a13fb5b94.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2887597174/)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3059/2887598068_d4cd2bf855.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2887598068/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3166/2887598982_df63978121.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2887598982/)

peteer01

09-25-08, 09:18 AM

TH-AE2000
This was a tough one. The AE2000 is so big, and PC cord is nearly right in the middle of it, so it was tough to get the PC far enough and the screen close enough. At f/1.4, it doesn't take much distance to blur the numbers, but they're readable enough to see that the AE2000 has more image lag than the AX200, with or without game mode.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3237/2887571668_1edd6ce641.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2887571668/)http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2099/2887572508_da7443de4a.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2887572508/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3287/2886738615_edcc1a5e01.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2886738615/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3293/2887574350_cc60f073c4.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2887574350/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3051/2886740591_cc738c5cba.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2886740591/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3271/2887575988_33544ac7a6.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2887575988/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3181/2887576680_9f2b38d064.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2887576680/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3002/2886742919_9f4630df06.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2886742919/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3093/2887578290_f0e13c3690.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2887578290/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3053/2886744515_13abe5a9bc.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2886744515/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3190/2887579948_9b3fcb5780.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2887579948/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3265/2887580672_7558862850.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2887580672/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3172/2886749253_332c1818e0.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2886749253/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3251/2887584398_141084995c.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2887584398/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3158/2887585620_00158cf221.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2887585620/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3048/2886752193_3939bf15de.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2886752193/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3097/2886752825_71bb92a093.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2886752825/)http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2247/2886753559_063be769d8.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2886753559/)

peteer01

09-25-08, 09:26 AM

TW-1000 (Epson 1080)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3232/2887563848_f4f31e84c9.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2887564594/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3198/2887564594_f24d6169d8.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2887564594/)http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2311/2886730823_286b04ae52.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2886730823/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3292/2887565918_1436b816d5.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2887565918/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3076/2886732365_7ea85a0e4f.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2886732365/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3131/2886732997_9bf1cccc6b.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2886732997/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3158/2887568300_32c9ceab80.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2887568300/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3219/2887569042_22eb7b5861.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2887569042/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3268/2887569920_685d82f421.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2887569920/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3223/2887570496_cdf573d080.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/2887570496/)

peteer01

09-25-08, 09:28 AM

Updating the first post with my thoughts, but quickly here:

I thought it was surprising that the Epson (1080) seemed as good in normal mode as the Panasonic performed in game mode.
The two Panasonics clearly had the most image lag of the four projectors I've tested so far. (AE200, AE2000, TW2000 and Sanyo Z3)

(While unrelated to image lag, I was very unimpressed with how much dust the AE2000 had. When focusing to get the screen as close as possible, I was kind of shocked with the amount of dust in a 10 month old projector, and unlike the Sanyo, there's no way for a user to mitigate this...)

tommyv2

09-25-08, 10:32 AM

Is that TW2000 the same thing as an American 1080UB? If that's the case then someone's gotta test it soon! Thanks for the work, you are awesome?

Anyone tested the Epson HC720? For the price, I'd go with that. But it's gotta be fast!

peteer01

09-25-08, 10:38 AM

Is that TW2000 the same thing as an American 1080UB? If that's the case then send this link to Epson and have them start advertizing this! This is awesome!The TW2000 is the 1080UB. Unfortunately, that's the projector I couldn't test. (dead bulb)

The TW1000, the 1080 in the US, is the one I was able to take photos of...and while it's quite possible the 1080UB could have the same results, it's also possible that it wouldn't. I'll probably go back with my camera and laptop once I've confirmed that the AE3000 or TW4000 is on display (maybe even the TW3000 [6100/7100]) but not until then, so I don't know when or if I'll get photos of the 1080UB.

Until then, I'll keep my fingers crossed that someone else with a camera and access to more than one projector might be able to share some of their results with us.;)Is that TW2000 the same thing as an American 1080UB? If that's the case then someone's gotta test it soon! Thanks for the work, you are awesome?Hahaha. Replied just before your edit. Thanks for your complement? (I think.) Like you, I'm really hopeful the TW2000 does have the same, or better, image lag than the TW1000.

tommyv2

09-25-08, 10:47 AM

Thanks for the tests, that is so awesome. This should become standard criteria for projector reviewing from now on!

Anyone tested an Epson HC720 or 1080UB?

Dragoson

09-25-08, 11:49 AM

This is really great information! It's definetally pushed me to at least order and try out the Epson 1080UB prior to anything else. I even got my wife's approval, which is very rare, LOL

I'm not as much concerned about the ps3, xbox360, or Wii. My Sony 60" SXRD plays them fine. I did have several issues when hooking my PC up to it for games though. The mouse response was very sluggish and the display looked amazing until you started moving then the details dropped down and began to look very blurry. Hence my concern with moving to a projector. It does sound like there is the opportunity that everything will work out great though. Thanks for the info!

kriktsemaj99

09-25-08, 12:58 PM

I'm not convinced we have enough sample images of each projector to get a meaningful average. Since the difference between the two screens seems to be either 0 or 30ms, you would need to take many pictures to get any kind of accuracy.

Also, why do we see the stopwatch counting in increments of 30ms? The screens should be refreshing at 60Hz, so I would expect 16ms increments. Are you sure this isn't a limitation of the stopwatch program (in which case isn't there a better one out there)?

peteer01

09-25-08, 01:35 PM

Also, why do we see the stopwatch counting in increments of 30ms? The screens should be refreshing at 60Hz, so I would expect 16ms increments. Are you sure this isn't a limitation of the stopwatch program (in which case isn't there a better one out there)?Seems to be a limitation of my "ultralight" laptop. It's one of those really light 12.1" Dell ones, and even though it's rather recent, I think the graphics chipset just isn't up to snuff. Hooking it up to another monitor and running power saver mode or high performance mode doesn't make a difference. My older, larger notebook runs the stopwatch much more smoothly. I see the difference very clearly now that it's been pointed out to me.

My small laptop claims 60 Hz, but I think you've pointed out a pretty big discrepency with the 30ms.

Sadly, there's not a lot I can do to change the setup I'm using (not to mention, I don't want to test my luck snapping too many photos in Yodobashi Camera) so there won't be 16ms frame results from me, but I'm hoping someone else can chime in.

At the very least, the results gave me more of a reference point for LCD projector image lag than I had previously...hopefully they're a starting point for others to contribute more to.

tommyv2

09-25-08, 02:24 PM

I've also made up my mind on an Epson HC720. It's too cheap to ignore. Surely someone's got one of these to test? They're pretty popular.

Peteer, did you test your laptop against a CRT in the first place? And are you always using VGA? Sometimes the projectors' circuitry is faster/simpler for VGA. I'd like to see a 480i/p component and 720p HDMI comparison, as those are the inputs most of us are gonna use for gaming.

Most of the lag is from scaling and deinterlacing, but sometimes these devices just have lag on native res sources, too. You benched a Sanyo Z3 in VGA, and I've personally used one on 480i on component, and I found it laggy, but according to your pics it was awesome. HDMI was perfect, though.

peteer01

09-25-08, 05:02 PM

Peteer, did you test your laptop against a CRT in the first place? And are you always using VGA? Sometimes the projectors' circuitry is faster/simpler for VGA. I'd like to see a 480i/p component and 720p HDMI comparison, as those are the inputs most of us are gonna use for gaming.

Most of the lag is from scaling and deinterlacing, but sometimes these devices just have lag on native res sources, too. You benched a Sanyo Z3 in VGA, and I've personally used one on 480i on component, and I found it laggy, but according to your pics it was awesome. HDMI was perfect, though.No CRT to use. Always using VGA.

As you may already know, scaling 480i material is much more time intensive (more image lag) than 720p/1080p material, for any LCD screen or projector. There's a thread about that here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=558125), and that's definitely not a front projector specific issue.

Sending 720p material to my LCD TV or projector, I use component or HDMI, depending on the source, but I have no way of sending a time clock or similar image lag test to two monitors using anything but VGA, which is why I used VGA for my quick and dirty tests.

FWIW, I don't find the Z3 to be noticeably laggy when fed 720p/1080p, but as I mentioned earlier, image lag is one of those things people subconsciously adapt to, and I've been gaming on my Z3 for years.

Edit: If someone could prove that there's less image lag over VGA than both HDMI and component with my next projector, I'd be very happy to hook up my Xbox 360 over VGA, move my HD DVD player into the projector room to play HD DVDs and DVDs over HDMI. (Move the HD DVD drive to a second Xbox for the Bravia LCD TV in the other room for HD DVDs in that room.)

ed_t

09-25-08, 06:46 PM

Not every projector handles 1920x1080 over VGA. Mits HC5000 did but Sony VW60 did not.

taubenspikes

10-08-08, 12:03 AM

peteer01

10-08-08, 12:26 AM

hi all,

i want to buy a benq w5000 but i am not sure if the input lag is a issue for me. i am a hardcore gamer (cod4) and wanna play with this pj. has someone tested the lag for this pj yet ?

and has this one realy a game mode ? i cant find any hind in the user manuel.

cheers
taubenspikesI don't know anything about DLPs and image lag. I've read on one site that it's actually worse, without anything to back it up, but have seen two posters claim it's "near CRT" levels. I'm not about to believe either way without some more information, but there's a dearth of information on the topic currently.

A projector doesn't need a game mode, but if it's got the ability to turn off any extraneous image processing, that alone could improve image lag. Note that the Panasonics, which are the ones "pioneering" this game mode, are actually the ones that I believe have the worst image lag without game mode, so projector that has it may not be the benefit you'd expect.

taubenspikes

10-08-08, 04:00 AM

hi peter,

i have tested two cheap DLP pj with the PixelWorks chip and they are both great for gaming (infocus x10, optoma 803), but the blacks are bad so i want to upgrade to the benq w5000.

it has a better processor (hqv) but maybe this can cause a inputlag ?!

tommyv2

10-08-08, 11:21 AM

Based on previous tests shown here and other places, devices with the PixelWorks (Epsons, for one) chip are damn fast. Not sure anyone tested any Reon devices yet, for example.

fkuti

10-08-08, 01:20 PM

Based on previous tests shown here and other places, devices with the PixelWorks (Epsons, for one) chip are damn fast. Not sure anyone tested any Reon devices yet, for example.

The new Epson TW5000 (Name for 6500/7500 here in Europe) has the Silicon Optics HQV-Reon VX so I don't know how that is affecting the input lag?

I am also interested to know the differences in input lag between modern DLP and LCD!? Mainly because I would be using my projector for gaming as well.

Furthermore, LCD seems to be having issues with the motion handling and the 120hz technology with "frame adding" is supposed to help this. However, 120hz will increase the input lag so your are loosing to benefit of better details in fast games.

= You are not able to use the 120hz due the increased input lag?

BR
Fkuti

tommyv2

10-08-08, 01:32 PM

120hz and DLP/LCD/etc has very little to do with lag itself. The lag is occurring long before it gets to the panel/mirrors/etc. That's the problem. All of these technologies can display new information much faster than you can detect, but that's only if what they're getting is on time at all!

LCD definitely has blur, DLP has rainbows, CRT has size, plasma has retention, whatever. All compromises but it's getting a lot better.

As for the new Epsons with VX chips, we'll see. I'm not going to chance it and I'm picking up a TW2000/1080UB with the PixelWorks. One would assume that a HQ unit like the VX would take a little longer to do its magic. No one's sure without testing, but I'm not paying 3 grand to find out! :D

The Deuce

10-08-08, 04:41 PM

Hi, peteer

Thanks! Man, I never thought I'd see input lag tests for projectors. Superb work you are doing here, my friend! Very handy to have someone on the board who not only lives in Japan, but also near Yodobashi, and has the desire to run these tests.

I just wanted to make a few points:

- In one picture, the AE-200 in game mode appears to be ahead of the notebook monitor. This means the AE-200 is really fast, but I suspect it also means that the notebook screen itself has a bit of lag. I know you can't lug a CRT monitor in there to test with, but it's just something to keep in mind.

- It's nice to see some verification that the Game Mode really does work as advertised. A lot TV's game modes are a complete sham, imo, and most reviewers don't even try to verify it. Or else if they do mention it, it's something stupid like "Well, I didn't feel any lag. Good enough for me!"

- The only review site I've found that actually does lag tests on monitors is behardware.com (That's the English version. It's actually a French site). They've got high-refresh CRT monitors, fast-shutter cameras, and everything. I wonder if they could be talked into doing tests on projectors too?

- In behardware.com's tests, they've found that it makes absolutely no difference to lag whether you're using VGA or DVI. I expect you'll get the same results here.

- It's interesting how fast the Epson is. I was leaning towards the AE3000u, but that really makes me reconsider. I think I'll hold off until I can see numbers for the new projectors.

The Deuce

10-08-08, 05:04 PM

120hz and DLP/LCD/etc has very little to do with lag itself.

It'll definitely create lag in games because of the Frame Creation. Think about it:

2 frames come into the projector. Frame Creation creates a 3rd frame, which it places between them, by averaging them together. Now, if the middle frame is created by averaging together the other two frames, that means that it can't be created until the second frame has arrived! And that also means that the second frame will have to be delayed until after the "fake" middle frame has been manufactured and displayed.

So, you are looking at at least a half frame of lag, and that's assuming that the creation of the middle frame takes no time at all, which of course won't be the case.

sethk

10-08-08, 08:36 PM

Whether the display technology itself (DLP/LCD) panel itself causes lag or not, the majority of input lag, not display lag, (which is what this thread is about) is caused by the processing, not the display panel or DMD.

We know this is true because two different projectors with the same panel or dmd are still measured to have wildly varying input lag.

peteer01

10-08-08, 09:13 PM

Thanks! Man, I never thought I'd see input lag tests for projectors.Thanks for the kind words. My wife's bigger heavier laptop is able to display at much closer to 60 Hz than my tiny ultralight that I used, so I'll probably bring that with me once they have some of the new projectors on display.

I went to Yodobashi last week, and they still haven't replaced the bulb on the TW2000. I expect they're just letting that room stay the way it is until the new models show up.
Furthermore, LCD seems to be having issues with the motion handling and the 120hz technology with "frame adding" is supposed to help this. However, 120hz will increase the input lag so your are loosing to benefit of better details in fast games.

= You are not able to use the 120hz due the increased input lag?Don't confuse 120 Hz and frame creation. If you turn on frame creation to create intermediary frames, then you're injecting some significant image lag.

However, having a 120 Hz refresh should be a good thing for image lag. The faster the refresh rate, the better. 120 Hz should be as fast or faster than a 60 Hz processor, meaning you would see at worst the same performance and at best slightly faster performance. It should not have a major impact though.

ResOGlas

10-09-08, 06:11 AM

My Epson 77c has lightning fast response time, better than any consumer LCD panel I've owned. Suppose that's because it's more of a presentation PJ instead of the likes of a home theater PJ that has all the bells and whistles that us AVSers disable anyway...

taubenspikes

10-09-08, 06:24 AM

what about the w5000 and reon chipset ???

tommyv2

10-09-08, 10:45 AM

It'll definitely create lag in games because of the Frame Creation. T

I didn't say anything about 120hz frame creation. That's the job of the chip, not the panel. A 120hz panel is a good thing and means nothing bag for lag.

MrWigggles

10-09-08, 11:50 PM

Peteer thanks for the testing it isn't perfect, but it is still very helpful.

The best way to determine image lag is with a light measuring diode and compare image changes to sound changes using an oscilloscope. Feed the light meter into channel 1 and the sound signal into channel 2 of the oscilloscope. Then you need to put on a DVD that has a bright scene change with accompanying audio noise. (An explosion from Diehard should work well. Avia Pro has an audio sync test as well.) Now, not everyone has an oscilloscope but that would be the best way to compare projectors.

Another way to test how fast displays are is at Best Buy where all the TVs are fed the same image. Watch for scene changes, you can almost always spot the slower sets. (And if you can't spot the slower sets then the difference is indistinguishable and that is all that maters.) Samsung's and 120Hz processing TVs almost always have the slowest reaction times. But these aren't projectors so it is not that helpful. You could of coarse do the same thing with a bunch of projectors but you will need a signal distribution amplifier.

A final way is to connect the projectors to an Xbox and use the calibration feature of Rock Band to tell you what the video delay is. My brother's brand new Philips had a 84ms delay when the 120Hz processing was enabled and 42ms delay with it turned off. This method isn't perfect because there is some human error involved.

The oscilloscope is the best way. All other methods are still very helpful though.

Thanks Peteer,

Mr. Wigggles

MrWigggles

10-09-08, 11:54 PM

Now that I think about it, I have everything necessary to do the Oscilloscope test.

I am in the process of moving. Next week I should have some time to do the experiment.

-Mr. Wigggles

stk

10-10-08, 01:49 AM

Very interesting thread. I'm wondering about the difference between the VGA and HDMI inputs. I always had the impression that there was less video processing done on the VGA input. I don't know about other manufacturers, but on Sony TVs and projectors, many of the picture settings cannot be adjusted for VGA input (things like sharpness, color, film mode, noise reduction, and so on). So I would expect there to be more lag for HDMI sources.

peteer01

10-10-08, 03:38 AM

Now that I think about it, I have everything necessary to do the Oscilloscope test.

I am in the process of moving. Next week I should have some time to do the experiment.

-Mr. WiggglesI would love to see some results from other testing methods...hopefully get some consistent patterns across makers and/or models. Looking forwwward to seeing some of your results when you finish the move.:)

taubenspikes

10-15-08, 01:45 PM

hi,

i have done some test with my brand new benq w5000.

equipment:
1 x benq w5000 firmware 1.16
1 x 19" crt diamond
1 x camera sony dcs-v3

both are running with the same resolution and frequenz in clonemode. the benq has been connected via hdmi and the crt via dvi<>analog adapter.

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/2942/86027539yo6.th.jpg (http://img529.imageshack.us/my.php?image=86027539yo6.jpg)

first if have selected 1024x768@85hz

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/7150/1024852gs5.th.jpg (http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1024852gs5.jpg)

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/6320/1024853lt6.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1024853lt6.jpg)

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/1456/1024854fd6.th.jpg (http://img520.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1024854fd6.jpg)

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/1696/102485jm4.th.jpg (http://img369.imageshack.us/my.php?image=102485jm4.jpg)

the next session has been started with 1920x1080@60hz

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/4134/1920602dv4.th.jpg (http://img259.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1920602dv4.jpg)

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/7126/1920603nw4.th.jpg (http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1920603nw4.jpg)

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/990/1920604bq9.th.jpg (http://img510.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1920604bq9.jpg)

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/7955/192060jr4.th.jpg (http://img510.imageshack.us/my.php?image=192060jr4.jpg)

as you can see is the inputlag around 80ms at 1024x768@85hz and 50ms at 1920x1080@60.

gaming was ok, but you feel the light inputlag. if you are a hardcore gamer, you should try the optoma 803 or infocus x10, their inputlag was almost zero.

peteer01

10-16-08, 11:33 AM

hi,

i have done some test with my brand new benq w5000.Very awesome. Thanks for testing and sharing. I wish I had a CRT to test with. (I also wish I could some how have gotten one into the projector room at Yodobashi:p)

tommyv2

10-16-08, 02:40 PM

Great test, spikes! Much appreciated.

Question - did you benchmark the HDMI connection vs. the DVI analog? ...on the same display? :-) How awful would it be if the video card lags one of the outputs upon cloning, probably the HDMI. Hehe. Unlikely. Great test, though.

What chip does the W5000 use, anyway?

tommyv2

10-17-08, 09:36 AM

taubenspikes

10-18-08, 08:02 AM

yes ! pjs with pixelworks are faster, which i can vouch.
i have done another test, using my crt and a sony cam. the resolution has been set to 1920*1080@60hz.

here are the candidates.

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/3061/blackwhite1td3.th.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=blackwhite1td3.jpg)

first you will see the inputlag from the optoma hd800x, better known as hd803.

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/6082/optoma1ej5.th.jpg (http://img520.imageshack.us/my.php?image=optoma1ej5.jpg)

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/8091/optoma2uu7.th.jpg (http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=optoma2uu7.jpg)

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4192/optoma3od6.th.jpg (http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?image=optoma3od6.jpg)

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/5324/optoma4cv9.th.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=optoma4cv9.jpg)

its between 10 and 30ms, most off the pictures have shown a lag of 30ms.

and the infocus x10

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/2275/infocus1vv6.th.jpg (http://img410.imageshack.us/my.php?image=infocus1vv6.jpg)

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/6008/infocus2pw0.th.jpg (http://img410.imageshack.us/my.php?image=infocus2pw0.jpg)

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/3797/infocus3bl2.th.jpg (http://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=infocus3bl2.jpg)

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/9783/infocus4bo0.th.jpg (http://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=infocus4bo0.jpg)

the infocus seems to have less inputlag than the optoma. in average 25ms.

in sport and racinggames (fifa, grid) you wont notice this lag, in shooters like crysis or
cod4 it will take some time for your brain to trim, but after 1 hour of gaming it
shouldn´t be a problem. i am very happy with this two pjs. for me the winner is
the optoma, because of his non existing rainbow effect and the stylish case.

regards,
taubenspikes

tommyv2

10-18-08, 10:51 AM

You know, 10-30ms of lag is really, really good. My Sony Bravia on game mode does around 40 and I feel it's fantastic compared to some of the stuff I've used. 30ms is only one frame, and that's pretty good for something not specifically made for this purpose.

I guess the fastest ever device is the Sharp game series LCDs with the "vyper drive" - anyone know what those benchmarked at? I think it was something crazy like 8-12ms.

sethk

10-18-08, 12:45 PM

30ms is closer to two frames of 60fps video (32ms to be exact). In my opinion this is about the maximum amount of input lag I would consider acceptable for certain things like fighting games, music/rhythm games and some multi-player action games, before it becomes a hindrance. This is purely in my opinion. 1 frame (16ms or less) is actually hard to notice - 32ms is noticeable coming from a CRT but you can compensate without a lot of pain.

Anyone can live with a higher number, but going back to a high input lag display after using a zero lag device like a CRT is a big shock - it almost makes you feel like you're drunk, because of the time delay between input and display.

ResOGlas

10-20-08, 12:07 AM

Looks like the W5000 uses a Reon VX. Anyone else tested any VX devices? This lag thing might just boil down to the video processor (seems logical!).

What are the old Sanyos using? Pixelworks, just like the Epsons. Both have tested as being very fast. I suppose we can conclude that Pixelworks = fast.

Anyone else agree here?

Pixelsworks DNX is definitely very fast.

Have any sites compared the lag between the standard Epson 1080UB with Pixelworks DNX to the more expensive Epson 1080UB HQV with Silicon Optics?

ResOGlas

10-20-08, 12:54 AM

Looks like the W5000 uses a Reon VX. Anyone else tested any VX devices? This lag thing might just boil down to the video processor (seems logical!).

What are the old Sanyos using? Pixelworks, just like the Epsons. Both have tested as being very fast. I suppose we can conclude that Pixelworks = fast.

Anyone else agree here?

Aww, so since the Epson 6500UB/TW4000 uses the Reon VX, it will probably have similar results to the W5000 I guess. :(

I wish Epson was offering a 120Hz model with cheaper (but faster) video processing.

ResOGlas

10-20-08, 06:22 AM

My biggest concern right now is the 3 120Hz PJs coming out: The Panasonic AE-3000U, The Epson 6500UB, and the Sanyo PLV-Z3000.

Since the 120Hz Sanyo PLV-Z3000 is using Pixelworks DNX, don't you guys guess that it will have the least amount input lag?

http://www.sanyo-lcdp.com/english/pdf/z3000z700-p.pdf

http://www.complete-it.ca/projector/SanyoPLV-Z3000.php

My current PJ is an Epson with Pixelworks DNX processing, and I was surprised by how little input lag it has.

tommyv2

10-20-08, 08:50 AM

ResOGlas

10-20-08, 09:10 AM

I wonder if Pixelworks even knows how fast they are? They should start marketing this in some way - surely somebody will care. "Our chipsets are in devices fast enough for gaming - don't settle for less!" it might be a good gimmick.

It's hard to say how the new Epsons will be. The spec sheet for the 6500 says Pixelworks WITH Reon VX. I have no idea what that means. Two processors, for extra slowness?

If there's no way to disable the Reon, I doubt the 6500 will be that great for gaming. We know that the Epson has no game mode, so I think that answers our question. I'm not dismissing what a wonderful processor the Reon is for cinema use, it's just not ideal for hardcore gamers.

I've flip flopped around trying to decide if I should go for the AE3000 or the 6500, but in all honesty I'm leaning towards the Sanyo Z3000 since it's using the same Epson Cine2fine 120Hz panels as the competition, but is using the older and *presumably faster* Pixelworks DNX.

As long as the Sanyo can get me comparable black levels to the competition, I'll accept whatever downfalls it has if it gets me the best gaming experience.

BRAC

10-20-08, 10:20 AM

If there's no way to disable the Reon, I doubt the 6500 will be that great for gaming. We know that the Epson has no game mode, so I think that answers our question. I'm not dismissing what a wonderful processor the Reon is for cinema use, it's just not ideal for hardcore gamers.

I've flip flopped around trying to decide if I should go for the AE3000 or the 6500, but in all honesty I'm leaning towards the Sanyo Z3000 since it's using the same Epson Cine2fine 120Hz panels as the competition, but is using the older and *presumably faster* Pixelworks DNX.

As long as the Sanyo can get me comparable black levels to the competition, I'll accept whatever downfalls it has if it gets me the best gaming experience.

Black levels should be very comparable on those three units. I think it will all come down to desired features. I mean, how dfferent can they be, they all use the same panels...

taubenspikes

10-20-08, 11:04 AM

tommyv2

10-20-08, 11:21 AM

sethk

10-20-08, 09:45 PM

I'll believe that when I see it! I can't fathom how more steps in processing could make things faster (not that anyone's claiming it will).

I guess one theoretical guess would be:

-Has anyone tested a slow Pixelworks device?
-Has anyone tested a fast Reon or Realta device?
-For the other ones, like Sony, how are they? (these projectors with custom chips are rarely tested it seems)

I just know that whatever's in my Dell 24" monitor should be banned from existence. Massive, crazy lag, completely unusable for 2D gaming, at any resolution. My previous monitor (Samsung 21", 2003 model) was actually pretty good for speed, but it had much worse blurring.

Realta's are programmable devices, so based on what you ask them to do, they will be variable speed. The Reon on the other hand is a fixed function device, however it can be configured in several ways. I can't speak for the Realta, but the Reon in my experience is slow. All devices will Reon's that I've seen have a minimum of 2 frames of delay and sometimes more - up to 4 frames. If you make the Reon run in close to a bypass mode it is much quicker, but still causes a delay.

peteer01

10-22-08, 02:21 AM

the Reon in my experience is slow. All devices will Reon's that I've seen have a minimum of 2 frames of delay and sometimes more - up to 4 frames. If you make the Reon run in close to a bypass mode it is much quicker, but still causes a delay.Augh. Don't tell me that. My Vardia RD-X7 already has a Reon-VX chip, so I don't need it for TV or (Japanese region) DVDs, but I was hoping I'd be able to bypass the TW-4000's Reon-VX chip completely for my Xbox 360, and that the image lag would be as good or better than the TW-2000...

One more reason to make sure I go test these new models before making a purchase decision...

ResOGlas

10-22-08, 08:37 AM

I decided to head down to Yodobashi Camera (where photo taking is actually expressly prohibited...;)) with my laptop and VGA cable and decided to try the same setup with all their 1080p projectors. Unfortunately, the ceiling mounted projector was out of the question, and the Z2000 and TW2000 (1080UB) still both had dead bulbs. (The Z2000 was dead when I first visited a few weeks ago.)

Hopefully Yodobashi Camera gets around to changing the lamps on the Z2000. Since it's using the same processing as the Z3000, it should give us a general idea about how the Z3000 will perform.

Maybe it's about time you earn some Suica points and hop on the JR and take a trip to another Yodobashi. :p

William Mapstone

10-22-08, 11:49 AM

Great thread, I'd love to see some info on the Sony vpl-hw10.

tommyv2

10-22-08, 02:01 PM

Has anyone thought of contacting Sony, Epson, Sanyo, etc and passing this thread along to them? If one of these emails get to their engineers, they might take things more seriously, or start advertising if their results are good. It's just one more thing for them to improve on and differentiate their product over each other's.

taubenspikes

10-22-08, 02:50 PM

Hopefully Yodobashi Camera gets around to changing the lamps on the Z2000. Since it's using the same processing as the Z3000, it should give us a general idea about how the Z3000 will perform.

Maybe it's about time you earn some Suica points and hop on the JR and take a trip to another Yodobashi. :p

the inputlag from the sanyo z2000 and the new mitsubishi hc5500 are above 80ms, like the benq w5000. for me the infocus x10 is the ultimate full hd gaming machine and i am very happy with it. but hurry, in europe the prices have been gone up from 1200 to 1450€ in the last two weeks and i think i know the reason, because its a great projector and every pence worth :D

ResOGlas

10-22-08, 02:54 PM

the inputlag from the sanyo z2000 and the new mitsubishi hc5500 are above 80ms, like the benq w5000.

Where did you get these numbers? Link?
The Z2000 is using Pixelworks, which you even said yourself was fast.

tommyv2

10-23-08, 10:24 AM

Yeah, good question! If you've tested the Z2000, let's see some pics. It's hard to believe it's that high based on previous experience.

Problem with AVS forum is that SO many people own these machines but not many want to test things and post pics. Maybe we should beg in individual model threads?

ResOGlas

10-23-08, 02:29 PM

Maybe we should beg in individual model threads?

VERY good idea. :)

At least worth a try, eh?

ResOGlas

10-27-08, 03:01 PM

VERY good idea. :)

At least worth a try, eh?

Well.... I've had no luck. :/

tommyv2

10-27-08, 03:26 PM

Those owners are of no use! It's the people who WANT to buy that are the curious ones....go figure.

cajhaj

10-28-08, 07:31 PM

im really interested in hc5500,but input lag is really that high ?? can it be calibrated by switching off some features ?

Im sentive to lag especially in fps like halo.. I used to have samsung lcd tv a656 and lag was annoying without game mode, so can anyone compare to this tv ?

tommyv2

10-29-08, 12:37 PM

I bought the Epson 1080UB. Coming in a few weeks (on backorder). Can't wait to game on this thing! I will post benchmarks for lag, since no one else seems to want to do it!

ResOGlas

10-29-08, 12:40 PM

I bought the Epson 1080UB. Coming in a few weeks (on backorder). Can't wait to game on this thing! I will post benchmarks for lag, since no one else seems to want to do it!

Aww man, I just tested my friend's 1080UB and the lag is so bad... :(

Ok, ok, I'm just kidding! :p
Please do let us know the results and your personal opinions. Congrats on your new toy.
The 1080UB is using Pixelworks DNX, so I expect the results will be good.

tommyv2

10-29-08, 01:45 PM

ResOGlas

10-29-08, 01:55 PM

You gave me a mild heart attack there! Damn!

I'll test it and put up the results right away. I just can't wait for this thing! I haven't figured out the size I'm going to project yet, but it's going to be spectacular.

I always find it nice to decide on a screen after your PJ purchase. It gives you more freedom and confidence to decide on what size and gain you want.

Out of curiosity, I'm dying to know how the input lag is comparing the Epson 1080UB and the Sanyo Z2000, because they're both using the same Pixelworks DNX ICs.

It's a shame that those happened to be the two PJs that Peeter couldn't test at Yodobashi Camera.

peteer01

10-30-08, 04:28 AM

Out of curiosity, I'm dying to know how the input lag is comparing the Epson 1080UB and the Sanyo Z2000, because they're both using the same Pixelworks DNX ICs.

It's a shame that those happened to be the two PJs that Peeter couldn't test at Yodobashi Camera.I heard from another AVS guy here (Tokyo) that Yodobashi's got the new Epson (I'm assuming TW3000) on display already, so while this long weekend is a trip to my wife's grandmother's house for her to meet our son for the first time, I'll almost certainly be at Yodobashi, with a laptop or two, to see if I can't test any new projectors... (Fingers crossed the projector room will still be abandoned like it almost always is. The new models may mean staff, and photos are against the rules...)

tommyv2

10-30-08, 09:14 AM

Awesome, can't wait! When we start getting some photographic evidence, we'll have to clean up this thread because it's more discussion than results. Would be nice if there was a thread with results only, for quick reference. If need be, I can even host a page on my website.

ResOGlas

10-30-08, 04:12 PM

Just found this short German article on the Sanyo Z3000 120Hz PJ:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://satundkabel.magnus.de/geraete/artikel/neues-beamer-flaggschiff-von-sanyo-plv-z3000-mit-3lcd-technik.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=5&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DSanyo%2B%2B%2522LP%2BZ3000%2522%26hl%3Den%26lr% 3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DvZy%26as_qdr%3Dd

This roughly (poorly) translated portion makes an interesting note that further solidifies my confidence that the Sanyo PLV-Z3000 with the Pixelworks DNX will be the gamer's choice out of the big 3 120Hz contenders this year.
How Sanyo announced on Tuesday evening, the fast response of the image thrower also sports fans rapid transfers or video game fans are available.

tommyv2

10-30-08, 04:36 PM

That's great news. Pixelworks is the new Corinthian Leather, the new Grey Poupon!

All this study of input lag just hurts my head. In the end, I say to myself, "I want to play video games on a giant frickin' screen and I want the character to jump when I press the button. The end."

All this talk between different models and brands, I mean - pick the best one you can afford that meets your lag needs. That's about it. Luckily it's turning out that there's a lot to choose from. Definitely not the same story in flat panel TV land!

cajhaj

10-30-08, 04:46 PM

anyone know about inputlag of epson HC 720 (tw680 in europe) ? all epsons look preatty good with low inputlag.. but i dont know about exactly this model, so ?

thnx for answer

ResOGlas

10-30-08, 05:00 PM

anyone know about inputlag of epson HC 720 (tw680 in europe) ? all epsons look preatty good with low inputlag.. but i dont know about exactly this model, so ?

thnx for answer

The short answer is that it's using Pixelworks, so I'd say it's a safe bet that's it's a great PJ for gaming.

After all this mind numbing research, it seems that the unanimous results show that projectors using Pixelworks processing always seem to be great for gaming.

cajhaj

10-30-08, 06:30 PM

The short answer is that it's using Pixelworks, so I'd say it's a safe bet that's it's a great PJ for gaming.

After all this mind numbing research, it seems that the unanimous results show that projectors using Pixelworks processing always seem to be great for gaming.

thnx for fast answer .) im gonna take this piece, probably tomorrow

ResOGlas

10-31-08, 02:06 AM

Luckily it's turning out that there's a lot to choose from. Definitely not the same story in flat panel TV land!

Very lucky, indeed. I've gone through so many LCD HDTVs it's ridiculous. I was blown away by how fast my last Epson projector was. It was one of those unreal moments, I almost believed that you couldn't get a display with honestly minimal input lag other than going the CRT route.

My Epson 77c has lightning fast response time, better than any consumer LCD panel I've owned.

I truly do hope that projectors don't all go the route of the Reon in the not so distant future. I'm not going to kidd myself though, Pixelworks is old tech. It just so happens to fit the gamer's needs. Heck, I say if it's good enough for the 1080UB and Z3000, it's good enough for me. ;)

It *almost* baffles me that recent LCD TVs with specific Game Modes can't compete with LCD projectors that don't have a Game Mode. What's the most recent LCD flat panel HDTV using Pixelworks? The only ones that comes to mind are the 2006 Olevia 3 series 720p displays.

William Mapstone

10-31-08, 08:21 AM

Originally posted ResOGlas
It *almost* baffles me that recent LCD TVs with specific Game Modes can't compete with LCD projectors that don't have a Game Mode.
Maybe the processors in flat panels TV's are NOT the weak link? The game mode can bypass time consuming processors task, but can't speed up the panel itself. The LCD chips used in projectors have generally been pretty fast, but the panels in LCD TV's have not. 2 different techs with similar name. This is just a guess, I'm no expert....LOL!

taubenspikes

10-31-08, 08:26 AM

dlp can handle resolutions with up to 85hz. lcd can´t - they will only accept 60hz and if you have played 10 years on a crt monitor you will feel the difference.

tommyv2

10-31-08, 10:08 AM

I don't believe refresh rate has anything to do with it, or even panel speed. I think all panels are faster than their processor. What's 85hz or 120hz do the output from your console is still 60hz? The Sega Game Gear, like 18 years ago, had an LCD screen that was instant, as did the NEC TurboXpress system years before that. LCD panels are fast enough for anything. Their colour changing speed is a different story, but I don't really care what colour Mario is, I just want him to jump on time!

This is all 100% video processor dependent. LCD monitors got slower before they got faster a few years ago. I've used some late 90s LCDs and they were instant, my 2007 Dell - garbage. Panels have only gotten better since then, processors have only gotten more to do, hence slower.

The Deuce

10-31-08, 01:44 PM

It *almost* baffles me that recent LCD TVs with specific Game Modes can't compete with LCD projectors that don't have a Game Mode.

Over at behardware.com, one of the few professional reviewers that regularly does input lag tests, I've noticed a trend: the larger panels tend to be laggier than the smaller panels. The first 0-lag LCD they tested was 19". Since then, they've found others, including some larger ones, but the general trend holds.

I'm not sure why panel size would affect lag, but I think it's interesting to note that projectors, unlike flat panel TVs, have very small LCD panels. It's just the projected image that's large.

tommyv2

10-31-08, 03:35 PM

That's a very interesting point. Only way to prove that consistently is to take an LCD model line and compare the sizes. More useful when you have a line like the Sharp D64U series, which are identical besides panel size, from 32" to 65".

I think with size there is an actual mechanical delay to the movement of the panel TFTs, but I'd like to see someone measure that!

ResOGlas

10-31-08, 06:47 PM

ResOGlas

10-31-08, 08:51 PM

From the AE3000 owners thread:
I had to do quite a bit of tweaking to get rockband2 to play smooth and in sync.

Not good news. Unlike Rock Band, 99.99% of games don't let you make adjustments for input lag.

Zip3kx07

10-31-08, 09:23 PM

In the htforum.nl Epson TW5000 (6500UB in the US) preview, it says the TW5000 has both the HQV Reon VX and a Pixel Works on board.

I wounder how that's going to work? :confused:
Makes me wounder if there is a gaming mode in the Epson that would just use the Pixel works chip.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.htforum.nl%2Fyabbse%2Findex.php %3Faction%3Dprintpage%3Btopic%3D80485.0&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=nl&tl=en

sethk

10-31-08, 10:28 PM

cajhaj

11-01-08, 06:00 AM

i bought epson TW680 (HC720) and it has superb inputlag i can even play with mouse ! instead of almost every lcd tv

William Mapstone

11-01-08, 10:42 AM

I'm not familiar with how guitar hero or rockband compensates for input lag, but from reading some posts, it seems as these games would be an easy way to measure input lag on projectors? Maybe I'll go find a used copy.

sethk

11-01-08, 11:02 AM

The most accurate way is to connect the projector to a PC, enable simultaneous output to a CRT monitor (0 input lag) display an accurate timer at the top and bottom of the screen on both and use a digital camera with adjustable shutter speed to take pictures. The best pictures are used, the difference between the timer reading on the CRT and the 2nd display is the input lag. Statistical data is gathered regarding the min, max and average input lag. The avg and max are what you want to consider.

Not easy, but this is considered conclusive measurement and is used by professional monitor review sites to measure input lag. Here is a thread (http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1327679) on HardForum dedicated to measurement with pictures, if you find it hard to visualize (there are several on that forum.)

By comparison, Rock Band will give you an approximate, non-objective measure something along the lines of OK, not bad, terrible etc. since it relies on your audio-visual judgement, which may be all you want though.

The Deuce

11-04-08, 11:12 AM

Not good news. Unlike Rock Band, 99.99% of games don't let you make adjustments for input lag.

Not necessarily bad news. From the post, it seemed like jamis didn't realize that you shouldn't be playing games with frame creation turned off and frame processing on fast mode.

tommyv2

11-04-08, 02:41 PM

I'm assuming the AE3000 will be identical in performance to the AX200 when in game mode, so, it should be pretty good.

William Mapstone

11-06-08, 11:08 AM

tommyv2

11-06-08, 11:11 AM

Most people are testing their display for the worst-case scenario - composite or S-video. That way you get deinterlacing and upscaling in the mix. Your current laptop will do that. From mine I ran VGA-out to a CRT monitor, and the S-video to my display.

Testing HDMI native res lag is much more involved, and may cost you buying new equipment, as you've discovered.

sethk

11-08-08, 08:11 PM

I am thinking about trying to find the equipment to do this test properly. I have a CRT computer monitor, I just need a computer that outputs componant and HDMI video, correct? I have an older (8 years) desk top computer, but I doubt it has the memory to run a HDMI/componant video card, correct? I have a 2 year old lap top, but it only has s-video output. So it looks like I might need to invest in a new computer. I do not need anything fancy, just something that can output HDMI and Componant video to my projector? Any suggestions?

Yes, your PC is likely too old at 8 years old to accomodate a modern video card or drive 2x1080p outputs. You could find an old PCI video card such as this, but then you might have issues installing drivers unless you have at least Windows XP.

So if you're looking at a new PC, most modern video cards have dual output and can output component and HDMI with cables or adapters. My video card came with 2xDVI output and a component output dongle (no HDMI dongle but I bought a DVI to HDMI cable from monoprice and it was pretty cheap). Just about any computer with a video card would do, if you plan to do no gaming, then a computer with an ATI 4xxx series (or better) or an NVIDIA 9xxx or GTS 1xx series with 2 DVI outputs will do. Some video cards come with bundled Component output dongles.

tommyv2

11-10-08, 02:14 PM

ResOGlas

11-11-08, 03:43 AM

Well, I've officially been screwed over! I finally ordered an Epson 1080UB, and guess what? It's gone, and you can't get it anymore.

Here's hoping the 6500UB lets you disable that Reon chip... *screams* Will my pain ever end? Just when I've found a good one...hehe.

Ouch, you can't find the 1080UB anywhere? Well, there's always the Sanyo Z3000 if the Epson 6500UB doesn't hold up.

ResOGlas

11-11-08, 03:51 AM

tommyv2

11-11-08, 10:07 AM

I just read the owner's manual of the Epson 6500UB and there's no mention of a game mode. *sigh*

http://files.support.epson.com/pdf/plhc61/plhc61ug.pdf

However, the manual references the Pixelworks DNX and the Reon, so there's no way to tell until someone tests this thing!

startak

11-11-08, 05:12 PM

Well, I've officially been screwed over! I finally ordered an Epson 1080UB, and guess what? It's gone, and you can't get it anymore.

Here's hoping the 6500UB lets you disable that Reon chip... *screams* Will my pain ever end? Just when I've found a good one...hehe.

I'm in the same boat tommy. I had orders from 3 different suppliers who all failed to get the 1080UB in for me.

peteer01

11-11-08, 08:53 PM

So whatever happened about the "Peeter's Wife's Grandmother meeting his son" trip? Everyone knows that the most important thing about visiting relatives in Japan is taking the time to go out of your way to test out the input lag of projectors in stores that don't allow photography, for the benefit strangers on the internet. :DRes,

Thanks for the cute post. Ken's living Japanese great-grandmother lives out near Mt. Fuji. Great produce and scenery, but not so many cutting edge electronics stores.

Now that we're back home, within reach of several Yodobashis, I was going to go to Yodobashi last weekend, but came down with a fever. I actually have work this weekend, so this weekend is probably not possible, but I plan on calling and asking when the TW4000 is going to be on display. If they will have the TW4000 on display, I'll try to find time to go, but otherwise, this weekend is pretty full, so photos will likely have to wait.

(I will update with when/if the Yodobashi staff have any idea of when they'll have a TW4000 on display)

peteer01

11-12-08, 12:25 AM

TW4000 update:

Spoke with Yodobashi. If I can believe the guy I spoke with, it looks like the date is not decided yet, but that Yodobashi should have a confirmed date on receiving TW4000s around the 15th.

This probably doesn't mean receiving them around the 15th, but that doesn't mean I can't hope. I'll follow up with them again in a few days. Hopefully then they can tell me if they'll have a TW4000 on display before/when they go on sale.

(If no one else does it before me, I really want to test the image lag of this projector before plunking down money for one.)

Murilo

11-12-08, 01:28 AM

ResOGlas

11-12-08, 03:51 AM

peteer01

11-12-08, 05:40 AM

This thread is very interesting but does not really provide any useful info.

With my benq w5000 all I know is when I press fire in call of duty, it fires right away.

Now if theres a millisecond difference, its not enough for me to notice. I even played around with the fire button, pressing it and it always fired right away.Bad news and good news, Murilo.

The bad news is that, yes, you do have image lag, and if you played a local match against a similarly skilled player on a CRT, you'd be handicapped. (Yes, the 80ms would make a difference)

The good news is that our brains are actually quite good at handling even a large amount of image lag, as long as that lag is consistant. You adapt to your display as time goes on. If you played on a CRT for a while, and then jumped back to your projector, you'd likely feel the difference, especially if you're a twitch gamer.

If you don't notice the lag, don't worry about it, and continue enjoying games on your projector.

Murilo

11-12-08, 07:17 AM

I run mine at 1080 so I guess im getting 50ms according to his test of lag, still that does not seem that bad, and not enough for me to notice.

My freinds who own crt's come over and play COD and never notice anything, and my one freind who always dominates online in cod, dominated just as easily as he does on his crt tv.

I should mention i game only on 360 and ps3. IM guessing there are other variables with these machines since they have there own internal processing.

The test was for pc gaming?

peteer01

11-12-08, 10:48 AM

Looks like the TW4000 could be 11/20 in Japan.

http://shop.epson.jp/goods/searchUse...searchUseKbn=1 (http://shop.epson.jp/goods/searchUseModel/gotoGoodsListAction.do?selectedClassCd1=&selectedModelId=SE-Projector&selectedOptionId=H56616330&searchUseKbn=1)

While the TW4000 only has "End of November", for the release date, the Epson store website has both the TW4000 replacement lamp and air filter going on sale on 11/20/08. Possible release date? We'll know in a week.

Either way, if no one tests it before it's out near me, I do want to bring my camera and a laptop (or two) down to test it so I can buy it that day if it's good.

jpit5

11-12-08, 11:19 AM

I play x-box 360 on a 56" Samsung DLP RPTV. From these forums, I learned that the input lag on my tv using component cables was terrible. But if you used the VGA adapter, the tv did significantly less processing and the input lag was minimized. I tried both, and found a significant improvement using the VGA input. I never researched the input lag over HDMI (and never tried it on my tv) because the 360 didn't have HDMI when I bought mine.

Is there any reason to believe that any of these projectors would have less input lag over VGA than another input? Also, if you are outputting a 1080p signal from your PS3 or 360, might you have less lag since the projector would not have to do any scaling?

Murilo

11-13-08, 02:59 AM

Again if someone can clarify the tests were on pc and for pc gaming.

PS3 and xbox have there own processing which is sure to change things.

ResOGlas

11-13-08, 04:16 AM

Again if someone can clarify the tests were on pc and for pc gaming.

PS3 and xbox have there own processing which is sure to change things.

We're talking about how long it take for a projector to get the signal from *anything* and then display the image on screen. Input lag affects consoles more so than PCs, because you can't always output at the native resolution of your display. 95%+ of PS3 games only output in 720p, keep that in mind.

Murilo

11-13-08, 06:30 AM

ResOGlas

11-13-08, 07:05 AM

But there are other variables ontop of that. Scaling from 720p should not take much time at all. Then you would have to compare scaling in the system. Not to mention response time of the wireless controller.

Different amounts of scaling is an issue, why do you think your Benq w5000 measured 80ms at 1024x768@85hz and 50ms at 1920x1080@60? :rolleyes:

Your projector isn't ideal for gaming, denial simply won't change that. Maybe it is good enough for you, which is fine, but the point of this thread isn't meant for those that have no issues with lag.

I'm not saying that you have a bad projector. Be happy with it. I am saying that as a gamer I wouldn't even dare to consider it myself or recommend it to my other gamer friends, though. Science is a mean bitch.

Murilo

11-13-08, 07:17 AM

Scaling 720p to 1080 is alot different then the 80ms 1024X768.

The reon does significantly other advanced scaling for obscure resolutions, one of its strengths. It does nothing really moving 720p to 1080. I am testing right now and people over at ign claimed if it was that bad some of us benq owners should notice as one person said he heard the worst was 68ms, but so far none of us see this problem and there are other gamers in the benq thread. The tester also did not test this resolution with his other projectors. He only did 1080p.

Furthermore there is question and been question what exactly is in the benq. Even though is a reon its been scaled to bare bones with almost all of its processing not unlocked even questioning if the reon was pulled from the machine because it did not pass any more hqv tests then the ps3.

I would have liked to see the numbers at 720p which is native for most games at 60 hrtz compared.

You dont have to convince me anything about my projector, almost all of us owners are incredibly happy with it and it has received glowing reviews. Im still happy with the 50ms response time in the one test I dont think its that bad at all for a projector if that is the actual true response time, the one he went with measured 30 and I was told on ign many sets do 30-40. Its unfair to look at the 85ms because he did not do the 768 test with those projectors, only the 1080p.

According to one person not ideal for gaming, but Im testing it and trying connecting to different displays and i dont see any lag that my eyes can comprehend. I have this years panasonic plasma and this years lcd samsung with a game mode that was recomended by pc gamers, and split the signal and cant see any difference.

Also firmware in the benq is constantly changed 1.16 was updated but 2.01 was the latest, sync issues were a problem in previous firmware.

Zip3kx07

11-13-08, 04:07 PM

Here is a good example of processing lag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2CZsHCMhuc&feature=related

On the right is the Panasonic AE2000, on the left the AE3000 with frame creation on. You'll notice the image is from the same source, but the image from the AE3000 is slightly behind the AE2000.

peteer01

11-15-08, 04:54 AM

Now that we're back home, within reach of several Yodobashis...Arghs.

Very frustrating day. Brought two laptops and my DSLR kit down to Yodobashi today, and was planning to buy a 120 GB Xbox HD (got into the beta for the new dashboard), test some projectors and get a release date for the TW4000.

They were sold out of the 120 GB HD
They're moving their projector room, and nothing is hooked up yet
They still don't know when the TW4000 is coming out

:mad:

This time I got the business card of a guy who works in the department, after he told me that he should know a firm date by Monday and that they should have boxes ready to sell on the day it goes on sale.

Here's the one photo I did take today: (Projector room under construction)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3218/3031794064_149e921b36.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/3031794064/)

(Also went to Bic Camera, where I had to wait forever for someone to listen to my question and then wait forever to find out they had no date or idea of when they would have a date for the TW4000.)

Sorry guys. I was hoping to get some tests for the TW3000, AE3000 and Z3000, but it was a no go at Yodobashi and Bic...

fkuti

11-23-08, 07:56 AM

Great thread, I'd love to see some info on the Sony vpl-hw10.

+1 (and + many more on behalf of all the gamers?)

Could some owner kindly do the measurements for HW10? Please :)

peteer01

11-25-08, 10:54 AM

Go ahead and call me impetuous...I went ahead and paid for my TW4000 today, and it's arriving in the A.M. on Friday.

Basically, I was already leaning towards the TW4000 for more than a month, and with the 4000 costing less than the Epson or Panasonic over here (Japan) and the 3000 not having the blacks I wanted, I didn't think there was a reasonable chance of anything else in my budget being a better match for what I wanted, so I pulled the trigger, sight unseen.

(On topic, I also used half my points for a 5 year extended warranty, and the other half on a new Xbox 360, giving me two [one for the LCD TV, and the newer, quieter, HDMI-equipped, more energy efficient one for the new projector] Xbox 360s. I was playing on the LCD screen for a bit, and there was a tangible different in image lag, My Z3 projector felt more responsive. All in my head? I donno, I'm not too worried about it, I prefer gaming on a projector, so I just hope the TW4000 can be as fast as my Z3...)

BudSMoke

11-25-08, 11:37 AM

Does anyone, anywhere have any spec the Pannys and the Epsons on frame delay in miliseconds.

miliseconds is the easiest way to interpret these delays.

Im confused as to wether we are disusing delays factors in the micro seconds? 10-50 milliseconds?300-700 miliseconds???!!!!!

can someone provide some more insight as to what type of delays we are talking about here or at least some ballpark estimates

William Mapstone

11-25-08, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by peteer01
I went ahead and paid for my TW4000 today, and it's arriving in the A.M. on Friday.
Congrats!

The Epson 6500 is the same thing correct? I'm sure many will be eager to read your thoughts on lag, as AVS will be selling the 6500 in Dec.

ResOGlas

11-25-08, 10:01 PM

peteer01

11-26-08, 03:21 AM

Congrats on your pre order, I look forward to your feedback. Be sure you get the 360 VGA cable, I bet the VGA input will bypass the Reon.Ordered it today, showing up on Friday.;)

Planning to crack open the casing on it, so that I can connect the 360 through both HDMI and VGA to the TW4000, and play around with various settings, see what works best for PQ and what works best for image lag. Hopefully I'll have some good info to report shortly. :)

jrbatche

11-26-08, 11:30 AM

I can't wait to see some real-world impressions of the Epson, I've been waiting for the successor to the 1080UB for a few months now. And don't forget to try setting it to x.v color mode for the 360 through HDMI, as based on the settings you can't use with x.v color (as detailed in the manual), that may also bypass the Reon completely as well.

The Deuce

11-26-08, 03:56 PM

peteer01

11-26-08, 07:21 PM

Hey, peteer1, congrats on the purchase!

Now that you own the TW4000, I was wondering. In addition to testing the input lag over HDMI and VGA, would it be possible for you to also connect your PC via S-video, so you can test out the projector's performance when de-interlacing is involved? Actually, it would be cool if Yodobashi would let you do that with the Panny as well.

Thanks in advance. Plugging in a NES and playing Super Mario Bros on a 110-inch screen is sort of a lifelong dream of mine.Super Mario Bros on a 110-inch screen? Mario's eye would be the size of a (square) penny!:eek: Does sound fun though.

Sadly, neither of my two laptops I have have an S-video out or any out video out other than VGA. (My wife's may?)

As for testing at Yodobashi, considering that the TW4000 is arriving at my home tomorrow, I don't have much reason to head back to Yodobashi any time soon, let alone with the SLR and computers...so my testing of other projectors isn't likely to happen any time soon...although I will be testing the TW4000 out, you can be sure. ;)

William Mapstone

11-27-08, 09:40 AM

peteer01, will you be able to test your TW4000 for lag via HDMI? The PS3 doesn't have VGA.

peteer01

11-27-08, 09:59 AM

peteer01, will you be able to test your TW4000 for lag via HDMI? The PS3 doesn't have VGA.No, sorry. Outside of the chance that my wife's laptop has an S-video out, I don't have any way to test with anything but VGA.

ResOGlas

11-27-08, 10:53 AM

No, sorry. Outside of the chance that my wife's laptop has an S-video out, I don't have any way to test with anything but VGA.

Go buy a Junk Sega Saturn at a Hard Off for a few bucks, and grab a Saturn S-Video cable. Japanese Sega Saturn had the best overall game lineup in console history IMO. You owe it to yourself to have a Sega Saturn parked next to that 360.

peteer01

11-27-08, 08:59 PM

Go buy a Junk Sega Saturn at a Hard Off for a few bucks, and grab a Saturn S-Video cable. Japanese Sega Saturn had the best overall game lineup in console history IMO. You owe it to yourself to have a Sega Saturn parked next to that 360.Man...I spent about as much on my Sega Saturn as I spend on my Xbox 360s and game collection now...but back then I was a high school/college student barely earning more than minimum wage. :D

Very fond memories of the Saturn and Dreamcast days.:)

In other news...I won't be posting for a few hours, because this just showed up.:D:D:D
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3237/3064952118_8d5f4d2946_b.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/3064952118/)

bnk19

11-27-08, 10:16 PM

Wow, I guess they do exist.;)
Will be looking forward to your review.

peteer01

11-28-08, 02:46 AM

Wow, I guess they do exist.;)
Will be looking forward to your review.The review will probably be a new thread, but here's the quick post with the lag results. First off, the results, in my book, are good. :)

It turns out that even in PC mode, frame creation is set to "normal" by default. I was unpleasantly surprised to see the Z3 beating the TW4000. Since there's only Japanese menus, I didn't look too closely at them until I was watching Transformers on HD DVD and realized there was some funky stuble action (the guy's stuble when he moved was super unnatural looking) and the audio was slightly off. That's when I realized frame creation was probably on by default, and after the movie I checked out the frame creation setting for PC. (Yup, it was on.) Turning off frame creation, I would say that the TW4000 is probably very slightly slower than the Z3, which is fast enough for me.

Here's the photos, with the setup for each photos in the description:
http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/sets/72157610292661868/ (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/)

(Yeah, I'm just throwing them all up on flickr...I've got a fun new projector to go play with. :pThe description for each photo says what projector and settings were used.)

I'd really like to hear that HDMI is as fast as VGA (as it should/could be?) so that I could just keep my Xbox 360 hooked up with that.

tommyv2

11-28-08, 10:18 AM

Lag looks pretty good...can't wait to see the full stats on HDMI!

peteer01

11-28-08, 12:56 PM

Lag looks pretty good...can't wait to see the full stats on HDMI!I don't know what they'll be, but in my first day in Call of Duty: World at War with it, I definitely felt pretty good. I wouldn't be surprised if it was faster over HDMI than my Z3 was over Component/D4.

tqn

11-28-08, 01:36 PM

The review will probably be a new thread, but here's the quick post with the lag results. First off, the results, in my book, are good. :)

It turns out that even in PC mode, frame creation is set to "normal" by default. I was unpleasantly surprised to see the Z3 beating the TW4000. Since there's only Japanese menus, I didn't look too closely at them until I was watching Transformers on HD DVD and realized there was some funky stuble action (the guy's stuble when he moved was super unnatural looking) and the audio was slightly off. That's when I realized frame creation was probably on by default, and after the movie I checked out the frame creation setting for PC. (Yup, it was on.) Turning off frame creation, I would say that the TW4000 is as fast or faster than the Z3, which is fast enough for me.

Here's the photos, with the setup for each photos in the description:
http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/sets/72157610292661868/ (http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/)

(Yeah, I'm just throwing them all up on flickr...I've got a fun new projector to go play with. :pThe description for each photo says what projector and settings were used.)

I'd really like to hear that HDMI is as fast as VGA (as it should/could be?) so that I could just keep my Xbox 360 hooked up with that.

I'm trying to interpret the photos I see on Flickr. It seems that the Z3 is on par with or ahead of the laptop, while the TW4000 (with frame creation off) is on par with or behind the laptop. Is my interpretation correct? If so, then how come you say the TW4000 is as fast or faster than the Z3?

peteer01

11-28-08, 02:13 PM

I'm trying to interpret the photos I see on Flickr. It seems that the Z3 is on par with or ahead of the laptop, while the TW4000 (with frame creation off) is on par with or behind the laptop. Is my interpretation correct? If so, then how come you say the TW4000 is as fast or faster than the Z3?You're absolutely right. Complete brain fart on my part.

When I first opened the projector and tested it out, I was bummed because it was obviously slower than the Z3...after realizing that frame creation was on even for the VGA input, I tested it again and saw the number were much closer to where they should be. I, likely projecting my desires on to the results, stupidly saw the numbers were usually the same or smaller than the PCs and thought "lower = faster". I slapped the results up with out looking at them, and I'm glad you caught my mistake now before I ran around telling everyone how fast the TW4000 is.

Yes, there is a noticable difference with the Z3 being faster than the TW4000...and the lack of available options while using the VGA input makes me think that there's no changing that.

Fezmid

11-28-08, 02:30 PM

I don't know what they'll be, but in my first day in Call of Duty: World at War with it, I definitely felt pretty good. I wouldn't be surprised if it was faster over HDMI than my Z3 was over Component/D4.

So you're saying that gaming with HDMI works well?

I have the Panny AE700 and desperately want to upgrade. I play games about 70% of the time on my pj, with movies only constituting 30% of the time.

ResOGlas

11-28-08, 03:07 PM

You're absolutely right. Complete brain fart on my part.

When I first opened the projector and tested it out, I was bummed because it was obviously slower than the Z3...after realizing that frame creation was on even for the VGA input, I tested it again and saw the number were much closer to where they should be. I, likely projecting my desires on to the results, stupidly saw the numbers were usually the same or smaller than the PCs and thought "lower = faster". I slapped the results up with out looking at them, and I'm glad you caught my mistake now before I ran around telling everyone how fast the TW4000 is.

Yes, there is a noticable difference with the Z3 being faster than the TW4000...and the lack of available options while using the VGA input makes me think that there's no changing that.

Ouch. Well, have you tried enabling x.v.Color to see if the kicks the Reon into bypass mode?

WaveyD4vey

11-28-08, 06:11 PM

with those sorts of numbers on the epson, exactly how much of a difference would that make while playing games? ive never owned a projector but am looking at getting one soon...it seems with frame creation off the epson was keeping up at the best while the sanyo was ahead sometimes...are the measurements on the epson "normal" so to speak for a projector?

peteer01

11-28-08, 09:55 PM

So you're saying that gaming with HDMI works well?Yes. I specifically bought a VGA cable because I fully expected that to be tangibly faster than HDMI. While there may be a difference, I thought it played over HDMI very responsively while looking absolutely fantastic. Based on my gaming yesterday, I fully expect to continue gaming through HDMI. (There may be some clear benefit that someone else can find to using VGA that might change my mind, but after years of gaming with compenent with my Z3, the TW4000 feels quite responsive through HDMI. I do have noise reduction, frame creation, etc... all turned off for gaming.)
with those sorts of numbers on the epson, exactly how much of a difference would that make while playing games?...are the measurements on the epson "normal" so to speak for a projector?There are probably faster 1080p LCD projectors than this. While the difference in gameplay isn't big enough for me to see compared to my Z3, some hardcore twitch gamers may be able to detect the difference. Perhaps the TW4000 is unable to bypass the Reon, perhaps these numbers are extremely similar to their past projectors, I don't know exactly. (To be clear, all my shots earlier in the thread are with my Dell computer, which someone pointed out is not giving true 60Hz, so the shots yesterday were all done with my wife's laptop, so that's why I'm not exactly sure how the other projectors would have responded with this laptop.)
Well, have you tried enabling x.v.Color to see if the kicks the Reon into bypass mode?I can select x.v.Color mode for HDMI, but not for VGA. I'd love to see what difference, if any, this makes through HDMI...hopefully someone else can shed some light on this?

Callsign_Vega

11-29-08, 08:03 AM

As a avid gamer, I am glad to see a thread on input lag. Input lag with all of these fancy image processors is the bane of gamers everywhere! I went through the same thing trying to find a widescreen 24" LCD for my computer. Come to find out that most screens not only have lag, but significant lag. A good fast display for most people would be a half frame (8ms) or less of input lag. An acceptable display would be one full frame (16ms) of lag. Anything 32ms or over in my opinion is a show-stopper.
To the original poster, you must test with a CRT screen and not a laptop LCD. Your laptop screen will have lag and unless you test your laptop versus a CRT, you will not know how much lag. So your results are skewed to begin with. Altough, there are some LCD's like the one that I found for my computer, based on TN screen technology, that have 2ms or less of input lag.
I personally am looking at the Panasonic AE3000 as it has a input lag reduction gaming mode. Has anyone yet tested how fast the AE3000 is in this mode? Here is a quote from the Projector Central review of the AE3000:

"Gaming Mode. As far as gaming is concerned, video delay is not a good thing, and audio delay does not fix the problem. So the AE3000 has a feature which is not called Gaming Mode, but should be. It is called Frame Response, and it lets you adjust the speed of frame delivery from the buffer. Your options are "Normal" and "Fast." "Normal" will provide normal video processing and results in a frame delay of about 3 frames (assuming Frame Creation is off). "Fast" will eliminate some of the standard video processing overhead and cuts frame delay to about 1.5 frames. You can see the effect on lip synch when switching between Normal and Fast, as lip synch problems pretty much disappear in Fast mode. There is no way for a video picture to appear instantaneously with zero delay on any digital video display, so the Fast frame delivery feature on the AE3000 is about as good as it gets. Put the AE3000 into Fast frame response mode, select Dynamic calibration with a few color tweaks, and you end up with a magnificent high resolution gaming system.

(By the way, we tried to activate Frame Creation while setting Frame Response to "fast" to see if the projector would explode. Apparently, the engineers anticipated this. The AE3000 simply defaults to Frame Creation and ignores the fast Frame Response command. The AE3000 knows when it is in the hands of a stupid user.)"

He does not say how he came upon these numbers he is quoting. He says 1.5 frames of lag, or about 24ms in gaming mode! That is barely passable if it is true. The quoted number of three frames, or 48ms for normal mode is truely horrible. That is almost an entire 1/20th of a second which is really noticeable. I think you would have some lip sync issues watching movies with that much lag.

If the lag on the AE3000 really is that slow, I might have to look into other projectors like the Sanyo PLV-Z3000. Please, keep the posts coming on this important issue!

ResOGlas

11-29-08, 08:08 AM

If the lag on the AE3000 really is that bad, I might have to look into other projectors like the Sanyo PLV-Z3000. Please, keep the posts coming on this important issue!

Panasonic projectors are very laggy. It's well known in these parts that Panasonic's Game Mode/Selective frame response option merely lower's the lag to that of an average non-gaming specific projector without a game mode.

sethk

11-29-08, 10:52 AM

1.5 frames of lag at 60hz input is 24ms, not 48. Your other numbers are off by 2x as well.

Callsign_Vega

11-29-08, 11:47 AM

Yes, you are correct. I have edited the numbers. I am pretty sensitive when it comes to input lag so the projector with the lowest numbers will be the one I purchase.

peteer01

12-01-08, 10:51 AM

Yes, you are correct. I have edited the numbers. I am pretty sensitive when it comes to input lag so the projector with the lowest numbers will be the one I purchase.You won't be the only one eagerly hoping for good numbers on the Z3000, then.;)

tommyv2

12-11-08, 04:03 PM

Just to keep the info consistent between threads:

The Sanyo Z3000 uses a new Pixelworks DNX chip which is untested by us here. There's no guarantee that it's fast at all. From my research (not claiming gospel truth here) the chip they're using is the PW9800 and before they used the PW390 (which HAS been tested and is really fast).

So until we get some hard evidence by testing the Z3000, we still don't know if there's a fast projector out there for us gamers...

We DO know that the new Epson 6100 uses the TW390 chip, but it's not a "higher end" LCD projector and not appealing to some.

William Mapstone

12-11-08, 07:54 PM

And to further make things confusing the Epson 6500 uses the PW390/Reon combo..... meaning that the Epson 6500 could be faster than the Sanyo Z3000?????

blueweed

12-11-08, 11:34 PM

peteer01

12-12-08, 12:06 AM

quick take on pany AE-3000. Got my unit 4days ago and works great for fps and rockbank(on xbox).
With the following settings
1) Frame Creation = Off
2) Fast Processing = On

I dont see any visible lag on COD4 online and panning a target to snipe works as normal, am prestige level10 so I play this game ALOT.
COD5 was fine as well, with Frame creation at Mode 1 you can see ghosting on the target cursor but was still playable with Fast Processing = Off, even.

rockband was playable, had a 3hour session straight. with Frame creation at Mode 1 or 2 you will see 'jerks' every once and then. Turn off Frame Creation and Fast processing and its ready to go.Assuming you put the AE3000 in fast frame response mode, turning on frame creation makes no difference, as the AE3000 doesn't actually turn it on. It's "idiot-proof" in that the fast frame response mode overrides any other settings that increase image lag.

I'd like to see this tested with some high speed shots against another projector and/or CRT with an image lag test running, but based on how slow the AE2000 and AX200U were without game mode, and how average the AX200U was with game mode on, I expect the AE3000 to be absolutely playable with game mode on, but not necessarily the ideal gaming projector. (It'll be interesting to see how the Z3000 and 6100 both preform if someone can test them.)

I've played some COD:WaW with frame creation on, and I think "playable" is subjective. You can play FPS on very, very old LCDs, but I wouldn't call them playable. I played half a level with with frame creation on, and did not like it. If you had fast frame response mode on when you played, your frame creation mode settings would have been ignored, but even with frame creation off, I would think some here would notice the lag on an AE3000 if you're not in fast frame response mode ("game mode").

blueweed

12-12-08, 01:49 AM

Assuming you put the AE3000 in fast frame response mode, turning on frame creation makes no difference, as the AE3000 doesn't actually turn it on. It's "idiot-proof" in that the fast frame response mode overrides any other settings that increase image lag.

I'd like to see this tested with some high speed shots against another projector and/or CRT with an image lag test running, but based on how slow the AE2000 and AX200U were without game mode, and how average the AX200U was with game mode on, I expect the AE3000 to be absolutely playable with game mode on, but not necessarily the ideal gaming projector. (It'll be interesting to see how the Z3000 and 6100 both preform if someone can test them.)

I've played some COD:WaW with frame creation on, and I think "playable" is subjective. You can play FPS on very, very old LCDs, but I wouldn't call them playable. I played half a level with with frame creation on, and did not like it. If you had fast frame response mode on when you played, your frame creation mode settings would have been ignored, but even with frame creation off, I would think some here would notice the lag on an AE3000 if you're not in fast frame response mode ("game mode").

can't argue regarding the subjectiveness of playability there but I think panning with a sniper rifle and trying to hit a moving target should be a nice test itself for competitive fps gamers.

The Deuce

12-15-08, 05:20 PM

Found this post in the PT-AE3000 Owner's Thread, for what it's worth. Not sure how much I do/don't trust Rock Band 2's calibration tools, but it's the only sort of measurement I've seen of the AE-3000u at all so far.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14991029#post14991029

I happen to have a microphone and photodiode to do this... :D

Rock Band 2 has a feature that lets you calibrate audio and video lag by using the RB2 guitar. The guitar has a microphone and photodiode built into it. I connected HDMI directly from my Xbox360 to the AE3000U, and here is what I got:

Normal Frame Response, no Frame Creation - 30ms
Normal Frame Response, Frame Creation Mode 1 - 81ms
Normal Frame Response, Frame Creation Mode 2 - 130ms
Fast Frame Response, Frame Creation Mode 2 - 130ms

I'm not sure which reviewer found that FFR turned off frame creation when enabled, but that is obviously not the case.
Also, I ended up with the same measurement between normal frame response and fast frame response (with frame creation off). This is a bit confusing... Maybe fast frame response doesn't work with digital sources? I ran the test multiple times and came up with 30 or 31ms every time.

ResOGlas

12-15-08, 09:46 PM

peteer01

12-15-08, 10:19 PM

Too bad he excludes the only important test

Fast frame Response, no Frame Creation.Looks like he did:

I ended up with the same measurement between normal frame response and fast frame response (with frame creation off). This is a bit confusing... Maybe fast frame response doesn't work with digital sources? I ran the test multiple times and came up with 30 or 31ms every time.

ResOGlas

12-15-08, 11:04 PM

Looks like he did:

I ended up with the same measurement between normal frame response and fast frame response (with frame creation off). This is a bit confusing... Maybe fast frame response doesn't work with digital sources? I ran the test multiple times and came up with 30 or 31ms every time.

Well....

I suppose I need more sleep. :o

William Mapstone

12-16-08, 08:26 AM

peeter01, do you have RB2? Do you guys think a lag comparison using RB2 would tell anything useful about different projectors?

peteer01

12-16-08, 08:58 AM

peeter01, do you have RB2? Do you guys think a lag comparison using RB2 would tell anything useful about different projectors?No RB2.

As for comparisons, if the set ups were identical it could be useful. However, everyone's audio set up is different, for example, my audio receiver defaults to an automatic 20ms audio delay unless otherwise specified. Different people's audio setups and video connections (component, S-video, composite, HDMI, VGA, etc.) are going to skew numbers.

Multiple projectors testing under the same settings, I still think photos or high speed video recording of multiple devices running concurrently is a better test...especially if you can use identical setups with different projectors.

(That said, I'd rather hear the RB2 results than nothing at all.)

tommyv2

12-16-08, 09:40 AM

These RB/GH tests are nearly worthless. Too many factors involved. Speaking of worthless tests...

My new quick test (totally non-empirical) is the Mega Man 9 demo on my PS3. I'm testing the jumping response speed. I recently tried it on a Sanyo Z3 projector, at 480p, 720p, and 1080i (PJ is 720 native) via HDMI.
The 720p lag is just awesome, as good as it could possibly be. It is 100% fantastic, it feels like an NES on a 1989 CRT, and that's including some magical bluetooth transmitter delay for the controller. I do feel lag on 1080i (not that I'd ever use that) and that's a Pixelworks DNX projector. It feels the same as my Bravia LCD without game mode on (but no 120hz stuff turned on). It's good but I FEEL SOMETHING NOT RIGHT. IMO, if that's something like what the Reon PJs feel like, it's a deal breaker to me. Once again, this is purely anecdotal and I don't take this as factual information.

Having felt the Z3 at native res, it pains me to go slower than that. It's so fantastic (absurdly so) that it's hard to accept anything else.

William Mapstone

12-16-08, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by tommyv2
My new quick test (totally non-empirical) is the Mega Man 9 demo on my PS3. I'm testing the jumping response speed. I recently tried it on a Sanyo Z3 projector, at 480p, 720p, and 1080i (PJ is 720 native) via HDMI.
What is it about Mega Man 9, that makes it more useful than some FPS like COD? Please elaborate on what you mean by jumping response speed? Are you just simply pressing the jump button and paying attention to when you jump? It sounds like you have a lot of experience with games that are lag sensitive, if so, I wish you had access to other projector like the Sony HW10 and the Epson 6500 and 6100. It sounds like your opinion might be very helpful.

tommyv2

12-16-08, 01:47 PM

3D games are nearly worthless because of the way your eyes respond to 3 different vectors. 2D games only have a X and Y axis, so their movement is more obvious. 3D FPS games, well, have animations and other movement is not the best way to measure lag by feel. Mega Man 9 has a gun, too, but I don't even use that because the gun response is never as obvious as a jump. The time in length you hold the button determines the height of the jump, and that's such a good indicator of lag (of button release after the initial press). You CANNOT fake or modify that type of movement. You're gonna know if it's correct or not. It's very obvious. If you THINK it's not perfect, it's not perfect. The millisecond you press that jump button, Mega Man is in the air. If he's not, there's your answer. It is instant in a way a 3D game could never be. 3D games have frame rates and V-sync buffers and all of that (that affect perception of movement), where 2D games are purely real-time rasterized and are moving pixels on the screen. That's why the hardcore gamers who complain about lag always reference 2D fighting games and platformers. Those are the best ways to check.

I've been playing 2D games since 1987 and am absurdly sensitive to any forms of lag. It took me nearly a year of research (without buying anything) to find my Denon receiver that passes HDMI unmolested as to not tamper with my video signal to introduce lag.

Anyway, I hope my findings are useful to someone. Lag facts and screencaps are best, but I want to make sure others are realistic in their findings. I hate when someone says "It's pretty good" or "acceptable" because that's subjective. I'm doing that too, in a way, but when I'm spending thousands of dollars on equipment that will last for years, I want Mega Man to jump when I press that button. Period.

(also bonus fact: Mega Man 9 renders in every resolution you set your PS3 to. That lets you test every res you want, where some games just run at 720p when your system is set to 1080p or whatever. It helps if you're trying to find a specific thing like I was)

William Mapstone

12-16-08, 06:38 PM

Cool! Downloading Mega Man 9 now to see how it works on my current projector.:)

s.newave

12-16-08, 06:59 PM

I've been playing 2D games since 1987 and am absurdly sensitive to any forms of lag. It took me nearly a year of research (without buying anything) to find my Denon receiver that passes HDMI unmolested as to not tamper with my video signal to introduce lag.

Do you have the model number and settings for that Denon?

tommyv2

12-16-08, 09:53 PM

It's any Denon HDMI model number under the 3000 series. So, any 28xx or any big box store model (789, 889, etc). [big box stores don't have the 4-digit Denon models, even if some models are 'identical' to a corresponding 3 digit model] Example a AVR-3808 is a model you'd want to avoid, as is a 5808. 2809 and lower is good. So is a 789, etc.

From the 3000 series and up, the Denons have a menu GUI that overlays on top of HDMI sources, which means the signal is being processed. That's a no-no. This idea extends to other brands, so look for any receiver that can't overlay info on top of HDMI (volume control display, settings, etc) input. Some see this as a 'defect' I say it's the best thing ever! Usually higher-end models of a brand feature HDMI overlay, and you'd need to avoid those models. Some receivers even have Reon VX or Realta processors, which are perfect for those looking to double their lag :D

I personally have a Denon AVR-2809CI. It is 100% lag free in every way. I joined AVS only to find my magic equipment, and so far so good :)

There are no settings to adjust for HDMI. For analog sources, set the "Upscale" option to OFF, which is the default. [it can convert analog to HDMI as a feature]

William Mapstone

12-16-08, 10:27 PM

Tommyv2, do you know anything about the Yamaha RX-V661? Crossing my fingers... as I already own it.:)

tommyv2

12-16-08, 10:48 PM

I remember looking at that amp as a choice many moons ago. If there's no volume display or GUI on the screen over HDMI, I think you're OK.

The Denons, for example, go to a black screen with text graphics when you bring up the GUI menu. At that point they're let the video signal go and take over the feed. If that's what your Yamaha does, you're OK. Haven't you tested it for fun by now? :)

William Mapstone

12-16-08, 11:28 PM

My current projector doesn't have HDMI input so I can't test it, but I'll take a look at the manual. Thx

tommyv2

12-17-08, 08:43 AM

If it doesn't have HDMI, then you CERTAINLY have no lag! Haha. Never mind, then. You're in good shape! :cool:

The other end of the spectrum is some amps have such slow AUDIO processing that if you turn on Prologic IIx or anything like that, it adds so much audio delay that your picture can't possibly be slowed down to match. (ex: Onkyo 905) I've witnessed it first hand and it's awful. These CE companies need to really test some of this stuff before passing it off to consumers. That Onkyo was the flagship model then, what a tragic thing!

My Denon even has a great feature (optional, of course) that if you turn off your receiver, it still passes the HDMI forward, so you can watch things on your TV without having the receiver on - perfect for wives that don't want to turn on a receiver, 18 speakers and 3 subwoofers to watch their DVD box sets :D

Anyone out there reading this thread got a Sanyo Z3000 yet? Lag test that thing, we're all waiting like crazy!

tommyv2

12-22-08, 10:22 AM

peteer01

12-23-08, 09:13 AM

So it seems that the only projectors using the PW390 chipset this year are the Epson 6100 and Sanyo Z700. I guess that makes them the only choices for a super-sensitive gamer going the 1080p route? I'm guessing that by next year there will be none. I am KICKING myself for not getting an Epson 1080UB when I had a chance. That was pretty stupid of me.

ResOGlas, we're still waiting for Z3000 screenshots :DHm. On one hand, I'm happy to hear that the lag I'm seeing with the TW4000 is probably pretty close to as good as it's going to be for the inorganic 1080p LCD projectors this year, but on the other hand, I wish the manufacturers were paying more attention to us gamers...

William Mapstone

12-23-08, 11:49 AM

Is there any chance the Sony HW10 has less lag than the current inorganic LCD? Sure it doesn't support 120hz, but it is comparable in every other aspect including black level. It is to bad that the Epson 6100, with the PW390, has the organic panels. I might be tempted to sacrifice black level, but I put a lot of hours on a projector, so I am worried about the panels degrading.

BudSMoke

01-06-09, 11:32 AM

tqn

01-06-09, 12:33 PM

Using a laptop is the worst way to do this test. You need to use a CRT monitor. LCD screens have a ton of lag because it takes the screen crystals time to respond, and this can change depending on temperature and wether or not a particular crystal has been recently turned on.

The reaction time of phosphorous on a CRT is dramatically faster.

I think calling it "the worst way to do it" is hyperbole. It may not be the best way, but depending on the particular laptop model, it may not be that bad. For example, when I ran the stopwatch on my Thinkpad while simultaneously outputting to a CRT, the lag was either 0 or 16 ms.

tommyv2

01-07-09, 08:51 AM

Based on Art's review, it looks like the Epson 6100 is excellent. It's also looking like the best choice this year for gaming!

One thing scares me - on one of Art's photos, it shows a Reon HQV logo on the projector. I think he re-used a picture from his Epson 6500 review... http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-q4-08/Epson_6500UB_power.jpg and yes, the file name of the picture confirms it!

Anyone used a 6100 yet?

tqn

01-07-09, 12:48 PM

tommyv2

01-07-09, 03:30 PM

The Epson 6100 and Sanyo Z700 are the only new projectors that use the Pixelworks PW390 chips. Those are the good ones! The same ones as all of last year's fast projectors (Epson 1080s, all Sanyos, etc)

The higher-end projectors now use Reon VX or the new Pixelworks chips, and they aren't as fast.

bnk19

01-10-09, 12:13 AM

Has anyone confirmed if the reon can be bypassed? Also, the epson 6500 still uses the pw390 correct or is it a "slower" chip.

tommyv2

01-12-09, 09:53 AM

The Reon cannot be bypassed. The Epson 6500 also has the PW390 processor, but since it also has a Reon, it negates the positives of that chip. Some of our members here have reported that the 6500 is still plenty fast, just not as fast as it could be.

The Epson 6100 has only the PW390, and it's believed to be as fast as last year's fastest projectors. No one has any photographic proof, though.

BudSMoke

01-12-09, 01:12 PM

peteer01

01-15-09, 06:57 PM

I have the AE3000 and play games all the time on PC. Mostly Crysis and Warcraft.

The 3000 is a horrible projector for gaming lag. Even with fast FRAME response on fast and 120Hz turned off... this projector still lags prolly in the 100-130ms range. Even playing a low rez game 1024x768 of Warcraft3 Frozen throne, you can tell that the mouse cursor lags your hand movment ever so slightly. Enough to be annoying. When I pop my vga cable over to my ax200u..boom everything is peachy.

The AE3000 is not good for anything but watching movies for HT

Why the engineers at Panasonic didn't add a true Gaming mode to this projector is beyond me. Someone needs to show up at their office with a baseball bat and get some answers.Well...they realized they had a lag problem and created a mode that minimized it...that I can definitely appreciate. What bugs me is people thinking the Panasonic is probably the best LCD projector for gaming because it's the only one that has a gaming mode.:rolleyes: (Understandable based on how they market it.)

Looking forward to seeing how the Epson 6100 and Sanyo Z700 perform, with photographed tests, if someone has a chance.

cwilliams2

01-26-09, 02:11 AM

Hey everyone,

I just bought my first house which has a living room that is perfect for a large HD projection system. Looking to buy a projector in the next month for use on a 120" screen. Like everyone else in this thread, I am an avid gamer who is extremely sensitive to input lag. My friends and I play at a high-level in 2D fighting games...even one frame of lag is noticeable and affects game play in these situations.

I know from my reading that I'll have to live with at least 1 frame of lag, but I'd like to keep it as low as possible in native and even upscaled resolutions. Also I am very sensitive to the blurring associated with motion on LCD panels. I'm not sure if that is an issue on LCD projection systems, but if so I'd like to keep it to a minimum.

I've read this thread up to here but its hard to get the newest information. What are the current recommendations for a gaming projection system?

Did anyone ever post numbers about the Sanyo Z3000? What about Epsons, like the 6500UB? Or do those not have the pixelworks processor?

Thanks in advance for any recommendations. Like I said I am looking to buy in the next month or so. Thanks!

Fezmid

01-26-09, 08:54 AM

Did anyone ever post numbers about the Sanyo Z3000? What about Epsons, like the 6500UB? Or do those not have the pixelworks processor?

I haven no official numbers, but I have the 7500UB (almost identical to the 6500UB) and I don't notice any lag. I've played Fallout3, Bomberman and Braid, have FI turned to "normal," and everything seems very responsive to me. I'm hardly an expert, but I don't have any issues playing.

CW

Sycorp

02-03-09, 02:30 AM

so anyone tested the Sanyo Z3000 yet?

The Deuce

02-03-09, 10:03 AM

so anyone tested the Sanyo Z3000 yet?

Nope, still nothing. A couple weeks ago, ResOGlas had said he was going to do it within the next day, and since then he's just disappeared. I've been waiting with bated breath myself, since my projector buying decision depends on those numbers. Damn, I wish reviewers would start testing this stuff. Once you've got the equipment, it only takes a few minutes.

peteer01

02-05-09, 01:40 AM

I haven no official numbers, but I have the 7500UB (almost identical to the 6500UB) and I don't notice any lag. I've played Fallout3, Bomberman and Braid, have FI turned to "normal," and everything seems very responsive to me. I'm hardly an expert, but I don't have any issues playing.

CWFI definitely adds lag. If you want to avoid lag, keep FI off, regardless of the projector.

William Mapstone

02-05-09, 09:01 AM

I was obsessing over which projector to get for gaming and I finally decided on the Epson 6500UB. As I said before I really don't trust myself as far as noticing lag, so if your sensitive, you probably should take my comment with a FWIW in front of it.;) Anways, I have tried to notice lag, and I can not. I'm not saying there isn't any, just saying that I can't notice it. I'm glad I chose the better blacks of the 6500 over the 6100, as I still watch movies. Though the cheaper price of the 6100 was tempting.... if you do get the 6500 or 6100, I would wait till late Feb, as they are trying to fix a focus drifting issue. Though apparantly Epson has a good return policy, so if you are unlucky like me, its not the end of the world.

Anjin

02-14-09, 03:56 AM

Still waiting for Z3000 (FI on/off) input lag times!!

I can't place my order before I know those :D

Sycorp

02-16-09, 12:10 AM

Still waiting for Z3000 (FI on/off) input lag times!!

I can't place my order before I know those :D

Don't think it's coming. I gave up on Z3000 already and am pretty much set on the JVC RS10/HD350

Anjin

02-16-09, 10:28 AM

Don't think it's coming. I gave up on Z3000 already and am pretty much set on the JVC RS10/HD350

My wallet just cant do that. HD350 is twice the price of Z3000 here :(

The Deuce

02-16-09, 05:41 PM

Don't think it's coming. I gave up on Z3000 already and am pretty much set on the JVC RS10/HD350

Not that I can afford it, but are there any lag numbers for the RS10?

Shiney

02-21-09, 07:42 PM

I'm also about to pull the trigger on a projector that I'll use a lot for gaming.

I've seen the JVC rs10 / hd 350 and the image is incredible...

But possible input lag is the issue thats holding me from grabbing one.

Has anyone experienced / measured the lag for this projector?

bri1270

02-22-09, 08:26 AM

Just out of curiousity how much lag would be added by using an HDMI switch like the units available from Monoprice?

kriktsemaj99

02-22-09, 09:44 AM

Just out of curiousity how much lag would be added by using an HDMI switch like the units available from Monoprice?
They don't have frame buffers, so the extra delay would be negligible (measured in microseconds, not milliseconds).

bri1270

02-22-09, 10:35 AM

They don't have frame buffers, so the extra delay would be negligible (measured in microseconds, not milliseconds).

Great, thanks krik!!

eliwankenobi

03-01-09, 06:48 PM

So nobody has any numbers on the Z3000??

Could someone at least comment on performance for what they perceive??

I would like to know about the Z3000, epson 6100/6500.

I would love to have the mitsu 7000 or 6500 but both are vey expensive where I live (they sell them at full MSRP). Other projectors I can't get locally.

frexit

03-06-09, 07:25 PM

Hey Guys,

finally I found some people who are interested in the input lag "performance" of recent projectors. Due to my "gaming history" I am pretty easily annoyed by lag and therefore input lag is a crucial criteria for any projector I consider buying.

Today I had the chance to participate in a nice projector shootout at my favorite HT-Dealer and would like to share these results with you guys:

Sadly I didn´t bring my camera and had to take pictures with my iphone which made the analysis be a guessing game.

I took about 10 pictures per projector and noticed that the results are pretty much the same each time. The following shots are in the middle of each projectors "lag-range" and pretty readable:

Sanyo Z3000:

http://www.klett-shirt.de/SanyoZ3000.jpg

Epson TW3800: (~Pro Cinema 7100]

http://www.klett-shirt.de/EpsonTW3800.jpg

JVC HD350:

http://www.klett-shirt.de/HD350.jpg

According to my calibration, which was done with a very fast TN-Panel (HP2207) via DVI the results are the following:

Sanyo Z3000 and Epson TW3800 ~ 100 ms
JVC HD350 around 150-200 ms

Any kind of picture improving technology was turned off if possible (HD350 doesn´t offer the option to turn of picture improvement)

Doesn´t look too good for us gamers, does it ? Next friday I will visit the same Dealer again and try to get a couple more tests going (and bring a better camera ;))

EDIT:

In terms of Image Quality for HDTV, Blueray and DVD my clear winner would be the HD350. Comparing the two lower price models from Epson and Sanyo my Choice would probably be the Sanyo due to a darker Black and a generally stronger plasticity and sharpness. This is a very close call though. Both projectors are capable of generating a great picture but are not as brilliant as the HD 350. In terms of color quality and "feel" the Sanyo and the Epson are somewhat different while none is a clear winner. Some scenes look better on the one while other scenes look better on the other.

regards,

frexit

eliwankenobi

03-06-09, 09:51 PM

I noticed there is a mitsubishi HC7000 (or maybe a HC6500?) there too.

Could check the lag on that one??

Sycorp

03-06-09, 10:19 PM

tqn

03-07-09, 03:22 AM

good job frexit!
what do the numbers mean? 150 ms is that comparable to 150 ms on a flat panel LCD screen?! my flat panel LCD is only about 4 ms! I'm hoping to play lots of PS3 games on my projector.
My HD350 is hopefully arriving next week. once I get it up and running I'll run the test to compare the results.

No, the 4ms on an LCD is the pixel response time. That's a separate measurement than input lag. The two are not comparable in the sense that a 20ms pixel response time would be terrible while a 20ms input lag would be quite good.

frexit

03-07-09, 05:13 AM

Tue Input lag ist comparable to regular delay due to a slow internet connection.. 150ms is aproximately thedelay of a 56k (isdn) connection.
Further testings are scheduled for next Friday ;)

scrubsr1

03-08-09, 03:37 PM

has anyone had the chance to test the input lag on a jvc rs2? How does the on board Gennum processing hold up in this regard? thanks

frexit

03-09-09, 08:00 AM

After reviewing quite a lot of information on "Gaming on the Big-Screen (projector/lcd/plasma) I am afraid I the following assumption is the key:

Any kind of "Big-Screen" equipment is set to produce the best available picture, which implies the following:

The better/more expensive the "Big-Screen" Device the more elaborate are the various picture improving techniques which results in more input lag.

This "fact" basically leaves us vivid gamers with just 2 options:

1.) Use a big-screen device with a rather simpel pixel processing chip and tolerate a "poor" cinema experience in order to enjoy lag-free gaming

2.) Find a big-screen device capable of running it´s native resolution over VGA, which should reduce the input lag to a minimum by circumventing the pixel-processing chip.

What do you think ?

regards,

frex

The Deuce

03-09-09, 03:18 PM

Hey, frexit, thanks for doing this! You're a hero!

Sanyo Z3000 and Epson TW3800 ~ 100 ms
JVC HD350 around 150-200 ms

Any kind of picture improving technology was turned off if possible (HD350 doesn´t offer the option to turn of picture improvement)

Wow, those numbers are absolutely atrocious. If the projectors are that slow, then they are essentially unplayable.

On the other hand, that doesn't jibe well with previous tests (for instance, peteer found the TW4000 to be around 30ms).

One thing I was wondering: did you guys make sure frame interpolation was turned off? It's not exactly a picture improvement per se, but it will cause much more delay than any picture improvement.

tommyv2

03-09-09, 03:29 PM

I find the Epson results above really hard to believe. Almost the exact results as the Sanyo 3000, but using different Pixelworks chipsets?

So very strange...

eliwankenobi

03-10-09, 08:37 AM

Well, If I am not mistaken, peteer was testing projector's lag using his laptop through VGA (analog) while frexit tested through DVI (digital), a different kind of connection. Processing might be different for both kind of connections. Everybody will likely play with their PS3s or XBOX360s through HDMI and I think that what we are most concerned about. Maybe someone in the forum has a laptop with HDMI ouput and access to a store with the projectors we are all interested and do that favor for us??

tommyv2

03-10-09, 09:16 AM

kriktsemaj99

03-10-09, 10:15 AM

As unreasonable as it sounds, the only true test is the screen lag at 720p and 1080p over HDMI. Any other combination is not a good indication of how most console gamers would use their projector. Even at that point, what to bench again? A magic CRT monitor that accepts HDMI? This is only getting more challenging :)
The magic CRT could be any CRT plus something like an HDfury (www.hdfury.com). That device doesn't have a frame buffer and any extra lag should be a few microseconds, not milliseconds. The new version has a native HDMI input with component and VGA outputs. Unfortunately it's not cheap.

If you split the HDMI output of the source two ways with an external splitter and feed one to a CRT through the HDfury, then you should be able to do a useful comparison with the projector. Comparing with the laptop's own screen seems pretty suspect to me, there are too many unknowns.

The Deuce

03-10-09, 10:43 AM

As unreasonable as it sounds, the only true test is the screen lag at 720p and 1080p over HDMI. Any other combination is not a good indication of how most console gamers would use their projector. Even at that point, what to bench again? A magic CRT monitor that accepts HDMI? This is only getting more challenging :)

Nah, probably the most reasonable way to do it is to test your notebook against a CRT by itself, to find out the lag of your notebook screen, then add that number as an offset to all your other measurements when testing projectors.

If people have to resort to HDFurys and stuff like that to do their tests, these tests will never get done.

avmjt

03-10-09, 01:28 PM

Yes, calibrating the lag of your notebook with a CRT and then applying that lag to your mesurements is definitely the easiest way.

frexit

03-11-09, 06:44 AM

Lets Start Top Down:

Well, If I am not mistaken, peteer was testing projector's lag using his laptop through VGA (analog) while frexit tested through DVI (digital), a different kind of connection. Processing might be different for both kind of connections.

As mentioned earlier connecting via VGA circumvents usually any kind of picture processing within a projector. Since a analog connection (VGA) is hardly capable of displaying Full HD in a good quality (sharpness etc.) the only valid test at this point is a connection via HDMI/DVI. Testing Via VGA is only interesting if you are planning to play at a resolution no higher than HD-Ready.

Maybe someone in the forum has a laptop with HDMI ouput and access to a store with the projectors we are all interested and do that favor for us??

Maybe I did not make that clear yet. That is exactly what I did:
Macbook Mini-DVI - > DVI -> DVI to HDMI cable. Therefore the tested projectors where feeded with real 1080p via HDMI.

only true test is the screen lag at 720p and 1080p over HDMI (..) for console gamers

True .. but since I am aiming to play PC-Games I am mainly interested in true 1080p.

Comparing with the laptop's own screen seems pretty suspect to me, there are too many unknowns.

I don´t think so. As long as you do the following (like I did):test your notebook against a CRT by itself, to find out the lag of your notebook screen, then add that number as an offset to all your other measurements when testing projectors.

If you split the HDMI output of the source two ways with an external splitter and feed one to a CRT through the HDfury

I don´t agree either: Splitting the digital signal reduces quality and can even result in added input lag on both connected devices. Therefore you would not see the lag which is actually there. The impact of this effect varies from splitter to splitter.

Regarding the topic "test quality" in general my point of view is the following. I am used to game on a very fast TN-Panel which is directly (dvi) connected to my video card. Since I used a parallel CRT monitor for gaming during the time when flatscreens wehere simply not "mature" enough for gaming (blurring, schlieren, lags) I had a direct comparison. Which resulted in the opinion that certain models (like the HP2207) are more than suited for online gaming (even Counterstrike and other lag sensitive games).

In conclusion I would be more than happy If i found a display or projector with no or minimal (<16ms) lag compared to a regular CRT or a fast TN-Panel Display.

Since FULL HD is the desired resolution the only valid test is exactly what I did: comparing the Big screen devices to a TN-Panel over DVI/HDMI.

By the way: DVI equals HDMI - Sound.

Anybody who agrees to that is asked to find a laptop with DVI Output, test it against his gaming Monitor and test any Big Screen Device he can get a hand on.

regards,

frexit

frexit

03-11-09, 07:07 AM

Lets Start Top Down:

Well, If I am not mistaken, peteer was testing projector's lag using his laptop through VGA (analog) while frexit tested through DVI (digital), a different kind of connection. Processing might be different for both kind of connections.

As mentioned earlier connecting via VGA usually circumvents any kind of picture processing within a projector. Since a analog connection (VGA) is hardly capable of displaying Full HD in a good quality (sharpness etc.) the only valid test at this point is a connection via HDMI/DVI. Testing Via VGA is only interesting if you are planning to play at a resolution no higher than HD-Ready.

Maybe someone in the forum has a laptop with HDMI ouput and access to a store with the projectors we are all interested and do that favor for us??

Maybe I did not make that clear yet. That is exactly what I did:
Macbook Mini-DVI - > DVI -> DVI to HDMI cable. Therefore the tested projectors where feeded with real 1080p via HDMI.

only true test is the screen lag at 720p and 1080p over HDMI (..) for console gamers

True .. but since I am aiming to play PC-Games I am mainly interested in true 1080p.

Comparing with the laptop's own screen seems pretty suspect to me, there are too many unknowns.

I don´t think so. As long as you do the following (like I did):test your notebook against a CRT by itself, to find out the lag of your notebook screen, then add that number as an offset to all your other measurements when testing projectors.

If you split the HDMI output of the source two ways with an external splitter and feed one to a CRT through the HDfury

I don´t agree either: Splitting the digital signal reduces quality and can even result in added input lag on both connected devices. Therefore you would not see the lag which is actually there. The impact of this effect varies from splitter to splitter.

Regarding the topic "test quality" in general my point of view is the following. I am used to game on a very fast TN-Panel which is directly (dvi) connected to my video card. Since I used a parallel CRT monitor for gaming during the time when flatscreens wehere simply not "mature" enough for gaming (blurring, schlieren, lags) I had a direct comparison. Which resulted in the opinion that certain models (like the HP2207) are more than suited for online gaming (even Counterstrike and other lag sensitive games).

In conclusion I would be more than happy If i found a display or projector with no or minimal (<16ms) lag compared to a regular CRT or a fast TN-Panel Display.

Since FULL HD is the desired resolution the only valid test is exactly what I did: comparing the Big screen devices to a TN-Panel over DVI/HDMI. (By the way: DVI equals HDMI - Sound.)

Anybody who agrees to that is asked to find a laptop with DVI Output, calibrate it against his gaming Monitor and test any Big Screen Device he can get a hand on. =)

regards,

frexit

avmjt

03-11-09, 01:54 PM

frexit, I'm sceptical about using DVI. It's adding a lag source to the chain that compresses and decompresses the signal. I much prefer using only HDMI at the PJ's native resolution.

Are you calibrating with a gaming monitor by using the same DVI signal that you will be using for the PJ's?

i.e...
Calibrate: Mini-DVI - > DVI -> DVI to HDMI cable -> Gaming Monitor
Meausure: Mini-DVI - > DVI -> DVI to HDMI cable -> PJ

frexit

03-11-09, 01:59 PM

Hi avmjt,

from what I know HDMI = DVI except for the added sound signal in the HDMI cable ?!

My calibration was done like this:

Calibrate: Mini-DVI - > DVI -> DVI cable -> Gaming Monitor
Meausure: Mini-DVI - > DVI -> DVI to HDMI cable -> PJ

Which is the only option since I don´t have a PC Monitor with HDMI input. But I honestly cannot imagine how the direct DVI connection to the gaming monitor could be more laggy than the connection to the projector via a DVI to HDMI cable. At the End all the picture processing is either done in the computer or the connected big screen device. The cables in between are just "signal carriers".

regards,

frexit

The Deuce

03-11-09, 03:36 PM

frexit, I'm sceptical about using DVI. It's adding a lag source to the chain that compresses and decompresses the signal.

It shouldn't. DVI doesn't compress or decompress the signal. A digital DVI signal is identical to an HDMI signal. Only the connector shape is different. No conversion is involved, so using DVI doesn't add any delay to the signal at all.

I do think that something is up with these numbers though. At 100ms+ lag, it should be *very* noticeable for lots of people. Lip-synch problems should be noticeable at this level too, for movie watchers. I have a hard time believing this wouldn't be easily picked up by lots of people. It should also have been picked up by people using audio delay tests.

If the new frame creation/interpolation modes that these projectors have were turned on, however, that would explain it.

frexit

03-12-09, 04:39 AM

At 100ms+ lag, it should be *very* noticeable for lots of people. Lip-synch problems should be noticeable at this level too, for movie watchers.

I don´t think so. Lip Sync problems won´t occur as the HDMI interface synchronizes the image and sound signals. Therefore the movie watcher would not even notice a 500 ms input lag. Due to the synchronisation input lag is 100% irrelevant for movies and any other kind of inputless entertainment. The only time input lag is "noticeable" for the user is when the movie is started (Time from pressing play until the projector shows the first picture) and even 2-3 seconds would be tolerable here i guess. After the movie is shown and nobody cares how long it takes the signals to travel from the playing device (i.e. blue ray player) to the image on the screen since all scenes are delayed equally long.

Do a test: connect your computer via HDMI to your projector and play a movie. You will most likely notice that the sound is significantly faster than the image. The ideal test would be a 2d jump and run game with a "jumping sound". Anyhow, there are tools for your htpc which allow you to delay the sound according to your projectors lag.

Why does nobody notice that kind of lag ?

Most HTPC users are aware of that problem and therefore use programs like DScaler. Movie watchers are not affected (see above). My assumption on casual console gamers is that they just don´t notice. (A couple of years ago there where quite a lot of people playing various online games with a 150ms + delay without even noticing ;] ) The small minority of dedicated gamers either uses their computer monitors to ensure the best "performance" or come here and cry about the problem. ;)

Anyhow.. I must admit that I relied on my HT Dealer telling me he turned any kind of picture improvement technologies off. But I have my doubts as well. For the Sanyo I checked that the Smothness Thingie was turned off but for the Epson I didn´t reasure myself. Tomorrow I am planning to do further testings and will definitely make sure everything is turned off.

regards,

frexit

The Deuce

03-12-09, 09:54 AM

I don´t think so. Lip Sync problems won´t occur as the HDMI interface synchronizes the image and sound signals. Therefore the movie watcher would not even notice a 500 ms input lag.

Sure they would. The delay is on the projector's end, and the projector doesn't play sound. The receiver will send the sound to the speakers while passing the signal on to the projector, and if the projector has 100-200ms of lag, this will result in the video being 1/10th to 1/5th of a second behind the audio. That ought to create a noticeable lipsynch problem, unless you intentionally turn on audio delay on the receiver (a feature that some receivers have).

(A couple of years ago there where quite a lot of people playing various online games with a 150ms + delay without even noticing ;] ) The small minority of dedicated gamers either uses their computer monitors to ensure the best "performance" or come here and cry about the problem. ;)
The lag caused by network delay is a different animal, though. Network games typically compensate in various ways to keep things as synced up as possible (such as projecting where a target is going to be, etc), so as to reduce the effects of lag. In a network game, when you move the controller, you see your character move immediately, not 1/5th of a second later. When you aim at your target, you aim at where you see him in order to hit, not at where you think he'll be in 1/5th of a second. This is different from an input lag scenario, in which you are literally seeing the state of the game as it was 200ms ago. I think that kind of input lag would render a lot of games totally unplayable, even for a casual gamer.

Anyhow.. I must admit that I relied on my HT Dealer telling me he turned any kind of picture improvement technologies off. But I have my doubts as well. For the Sanyo I checked that the Smothness Thingie was turned off but for the Epson I didn´t reasure myself. Tomorrow I am planning to do further testings and will definitely make sure everything is turned off.
That's worrying news about the Sanyo. Good to know. Again, thanks for doing these tests.

Squelch Oil

03-12-09, 10:00 AM

frexit

03-12-09, 12:27 PM

Sure they would. The delay is on the projector's end, and the projector doesn't play sound. The receiver will send the sound to the speakers while passing the signal on to the projector, and if the projector has 100-200ms of lag, this will result in the video being 1/10th to 1/5th of a second behind the audio. That ought to create a noticeable lipsynch problem, unless you intentionally turn on audio delay on the receiver (a feature that some receivers have).

You are right. That´s where all those expensive scalers come into play.

Off-Topic:
Let´s consider that there were some picture improving techniques still enabled when I took the pictures. Those will most likely be enabled when you are watching movies .. so why don´t we notice the delay ?

At first it came to my mind that the macbook probably delays things. But if so why would the picture on my TN-Panel be perfectly synched then ?

At second I think that a 150ms delay is not noticeable on a movie. Especially not if you are watching in any other language than english.. since synchronisation is not that good anyhow ;)

Does anyone have an explanation ?

Back to Topic:

Even though I honestly hope the RS2 will proove as a good gaming device I really doubt he will. JVC doesn´t seem to allow turning off picture improving techniques. How is the RS2 related to the HD350 ? Prior Model ? From what I found they are mostly identical except for a brighter lamp and a VGA input on the HD350, right ?

This is different from an input lag scenario, in which you are literally seeing the state of the game as it was 200ms ago. I think that kind of input lag would render a lot of games totally unplayable, even for a casual gamer.

You are definitely right on that point as well. Considering settings like tick rates and stuff there is a lot to be done about lag in online games. The key point here is that any kind of projector input lag beyong 30ms is a significant handicap in online and a huge funkiller in offline games.

So let´s keep on searching for a playable device. =)

Regarding my upcoming testings, is anyone able to tell me what to shut off on various brands ?

Epson
Sanyo
JVC
Mitsubishi
Panasonic

regards,
frex

The Deuce

03-12-09, 02:16 PM

Regarding my upcoming testings, is anyone able to tell me what to shut off on various brands ?

Epson
Sanyo
JVC
Mitsubishi
Panasonic

Well, Epson, Sanyo and Panasonic's new LCD projectors all have a frame interpolation feature, which should be turned off. The name for this feature might vary depending on the brand, but should be called something like "Frame Interpolation" or "Frame Creation".

Also, the Panasonic AE3000 has a feature called Fast Frame Response that you will want to turn *on*.

scrubsr1

03-12-09, 03:11 PM

I'll test the JVC-RS2 in the next couple of days here. I'm a long time FPS gamer on the PC, and I also play a bit on both the Xbox360 and PS3. I've had the JVC-RS1 for a couple years now, and yes, the lag was noticeable compared to my HannsG 28" LCD. That said, it was tolerable, and I am darn sure it was nowhere near the 150ms numbers mentioned recently. Because I play Counter-Strike online a fair bit, anything over ~60ms would have been a significant problem and would have had a direct impact on my performance. I'm hoping the RS2 I just replaced the RS1 with will have less lag, or at least no worse. I'll get back to everyone when I do the testing.

I'm really looking forward to your results, but seeing as though both the rs1 and rs2 use the same gennum processor, the input lag should be the same on both projectors.:(

I bought this projector on a whim because of the great price and now I'm regretting it. Mine is set to arrive on Monday. Hopefully you will have been able to test the rs2 by then.

I can see the rs20 and rs10 having significantly more lag due to the new reon solution which jvc implemented on these models.

My current Infocus IN82 is simply phenomenal for gaming...it's bright, sharp, has good contrast, accurate colors, and most importantly no lag. My only issues with the Infocus are black levels and audible noise from the projector. Neither are relevant to gaming but we do watch a lot of movies where these shortcomings rear their rear nasty heads. I guess there is no such thing as the perfect projector, unless of course it's the Sim2 Lumis at $30,000...god I wish I was rich.

avmjt

03-13-09, 05:09 PM

I really believe that there is an error in the measurements that were reported over 100 ms. I've read many posts from a couple forums and have several discussions with critial gamers that have played on the 6500UB, and they all find it acceptable for gaming and a very pleasurable gaming experience overall. From the discussions I've had, I believe that the 6500UB has an average input lag of 30 to 40 ms. If it were over 50 ms, we would surely be hearing how unplayable it is, and measurements over 100 ms are even more extreme. Heck, typical AV receivers only compensate for up to 100 ms.

frexit

03-16-09, 06:42 AM

Hey Guys,

avmjt is absolutely right. There was an error in measurement. I am still not sure wether that occurred due to the Flash-Stopwatch or simply the bad camera.

Anyhow, i had a very extensive testing session yesterday with very interesting results:

The Only 2 "lag-free" projectors I tested were the Epson TW3800 and the Infocus IN82.

This Time I used a Nikon D80 Camera and virtual stopwatch pro.

Detailed report is under construction - and will be finished as soon as my work load in the office decreases a little bit.

Just a sneak preview: I even had my hands and camera on the new Panasonic 65" plasma television =)

regards,

frexit

The Deuce

03-16-09, 09:56 AM

Boy, that's a relief (that the earlier measures were off). Hey, frexit, thanks a bunch for the work. Looking forward to the report!

The Deuce

03-16-09, 10:58 AM

Btw, frexit, you mentioned that the Infocus IN82 was one of the only two projectors that turned out to be "lag free". Was the IN83 not in stock there, or was it just not as fast as the IN82?

tommyv2

03-16-09, 11:02 AM

The Epson 3800/6100 should be really, really fast. I just couldn't believe your results! I'm feeling better now!

scrubsr1

03-16-09, 11:47 AM

Btw, frexit, you mentioned that the Infocus IN82 was one of the only two projectors that turned out to be "lag free". Was the IN83 not in stock there, or was it just not as fast as the IN82?

There would be no difference is between the two units in regards to lag...same Pixelworks DNX 10 bit processor. DC4 implementation separates the two with the IN83 adding an additional 400:1 to the overall contrast ratio(4000:1). Frexit's test of the IN82 is inline with my experiences with the projector...zero lag. Anyone want a sealed pioneer pro-fpj1?

Squelch Oil

03-16-09, 04:23 PM

Sorry folks, but I didn't get time to do the testing this weekend. That said, we had another couple over last night, and played Wii games (Rayman and the Rabbid Rabbits) for several hours and while it may not be quite the hard core thumb twitcher that an FPS is, it's definitely something where timing matters. Also played Auto Assualt 2 with my sons on the PS3 and RS2. Both were very playable. I will do some real testing in the next few days but so far I've no complaints about it.

I'll test the JVC-RS2 in the next couple of days here. I'm a long time FPS gamer on the PC, and I also play a bit on both the Xbox360 and PS3. I've had the JVC-RS1 for a couple years now, and yes, the lag was noticeable compared to my HannsG 28" LCD. That said, it was tolerable, and I am darn sure it was nowhere near the 150ms numbers mentioned recently. Because I play Counter-Strike online a fair bit, anything over ~60ms would have been a significant problem and would have had a direct impact on my performance. I'm hoping the RS2 I just replaced the RS1 with will have less lag, or at least no worse. I'll get back to everyone when I do the testing.

Sycorp

03-16-09, 11:43 PM

games are also very playable on the RS10 (at least to me). I tried Killzone 2, Street Fighter IV, GT5P, PES2009, Hawk, Dead Space. If I have time tonight I'll try and run the lag test.

edit..
I just remember, I don't have HDMI on my PC

The Deuce

03-17-09, 03:11 PM

Hey, frexit, just out of curiosity, what was the lag you measured on the IN82 and the TW3800? I know you're busy, and haven't finished the big report, but could you give just a number? Sorry I'm antsy. I've just been waiting for lag numbers on projectors forever, and I feel like a kid before Christmas :-D

The Deuce

03-23-09, 05:10 PM

You still around frexit?

I'm coming to seriously suspect that whenever somebody is about to post projector lag numbers, some manufacturers who know that their own numbers are lousy PM them, and offer to pay them off to keep them from going public. It's just too uncanny how people keep disappearing from the boards, without any reason given, right when they're a day away from posting testing results. :mad:

Ah well, at least he did manage to mention that the Epson 6100 and Infocus IN82 were faster than all the others.

Sycorp

03-23-09, 11:17 PM

ok, I just got a HDMI -> DVI adapter so I'll be able to run the lag test on my RS10. I'll do it hopefully tomorrow night and post results, if I don't get a special PM first :)

The Deuce

03-26-09, 09:32 AM

*Sigh* See what I mean!?

avmjt

03-26-09, 12:34 PM

cough cough.. attention those with deep pockets and something to hide, I'm about to divulge all the secrets that everyone here is looking for, so make me an offer I can't refuse. I accept Western Union only.

frexit

03-26-09, 02:21 PM

No conspiracy going on at my end .. even though I would really appreciate some big money for NOT doing work I was planning to do (Preparing the results..).

Anyhow I am currently moving and got a lot of crap going on at work, which kind of prevents me from doing anything else atm.

Sorry for keeping you waiting !

regards,

frex

The Deuce

03-26-09, 06:04 PM

Ah, good to see you frexit! You've halted my solipsistic descent into madness.

Any chance of a sneak preview? :D

Sycorp

03-26-09, 11:18 PM

I'm still here... no large sums deposited into my bank account yet.... I just haven't been able to run the tests as I've been wrestling with some issues with my projector. I will do it this weekend (if I don't have any connection problems between my PC and the DVI/HDMI).

frexit

03-27-09, 05:35 AM

Sure Thing:

Basically all projectors that feature an elaborate picture processing chip run have an input lag of around 1 frame (30ms). The cheaper processors with less picture enhancing capabilities usually are hardly ever over 16ms delay: Epson TW3800 Infocus IN82.

From what I experienced while testing around 8-10 projectors all that matters is the included picture processor. I discussed each result with my Home Cinema Dealer and he told me which chip was included in which projector. In the end he was able to "predict" the lag of a projector I was about to test by the processor included.

Basically that leaves us gamers with 3 options:

1.) Buy an older/cheaper projector with a decent picture quality (i.E Epson TW3800 or Infocus IN 82) and be happy with the compromise between picture quality in movies and low input lag. Good picture processors simply create input lag.

2.) Buy 2 Projectors 1 for Gaming, 1 for Movies

3.) Buy an up to date modell with an elaborate pixel processing chip and connect your computer via a short high quality VGA Cable. I am unsure how "bad" the picture itself will be and if that really "eliminates" all input lag since I did not test that yet. Could anyone give that a shot ? Ideally on a D-Ila JVC HD350 or the Sanyo Z3000 since I really liked the movie picture and Desktop sharpness of those projectors.

Pictures will follow on Sunday - promised =)

regards,

frex

Sycorp

03-27-09, 05:52 AM

Sure Thing:

3.) Buy an up to date modell with an elaborate pixel processing chip and connect your computer via a short high quality VGA Cable. I am unsure how "bad" the picture itself will be and if that really "eliminates" all input lag since I did not test that yet. Could anyone give that a shot ? Ideally on a D-Ila JVC HD350 or the Sanyo Z3000 since I really liked the movie picture and Desktop sharpness of those projectors.

Pictures will follow on Sunday - promised =)

regards,

frex

I have the RS10/HD350 and will be happy to test but I can only connect HDMI via DVI adapter or S-video. I don't have VGA (is that component?) on my PC

frexit

03-27-09, 06:29 AM

I am almost 100% positive that you got VGA on your PC. That is the "classical" D-Sub screen connection which we used for around 10-15 years now.

In Case your PC only got a DVI Out there should be an adapter to VGA. (Almost every grafics card gets shipped with one of those in the box.)

According to common sense the analog transmission of picture signals is not suitable for resolutions beyond 1600x1200 and a Full HD resolution (1920x1080) could significantly reduce sharpness and convergence. The better the cable and output of the grafic card the better the picture will be. Accordingly the question is wether that picture is good enough for gaming purposes..

regards,

frex

PS: This is a VGA cable: http://klett-shirt.de/kabel.jpg

This is the adapter i was talking about:

http://klett-shirt.de/adapter.jpg

frexit

03-27-09, 06:41 AM

My Bad: The RS2 does not support D-Sub. Only the HD750 features a D-Sub connector.

regards,

frex

avmjt

03-27-09, 09:35 AM

I thought that it was already determined that VGA only circumvents the processor on only some projectors.

The Deuce

03-27-09, 09:39 AM

1.) Buy an older/cheaper projector with a decent picture quality (i.E Epson TW3800 or Infocus IN 82) and be happy with the compromise between picture quality in movies and low input lag. Good picture processors simply create input lag.

As somebody else pointed out in this thread, the newer Infocus IN83 uses the same picture processor as the IN82, so that's one newer option that wouldn't compromise on lag.

As regards VGA, my expectation is that those of you testing it will probably get essentially identical lag to HDMI. Over at behardware.com, they test monitors for lag, and they've said that it always comes out the same regardless of which connection they use. Additionally, I used to have a Samsung DLP TV which I tested for lag, and it came out the same regardless of whether I used HDMI or VGA. The only contributors that made a difference were resolution (requiring upscaling or not), and whether or not the signal was interlaced.