I currently own a VTF3-HO w/turbo. It's a great sub, but I have this NEED for a little more slam. I've been saving my beer money all summer and I thought I was about ready to pull the trigger on a pair of MBM-12's. Anyways, over the weekend while I was drinking some beer, I started thinking about why not just upgrade my sub. I can sell the Hsu SW and buy the PB13. I know my wife would like ONLY one sub in the house. I know that I want the best sound and perfomance for what I can afford. She'll have to live with my all MY subs if that be the case. My room roughly measures 20X22X10 and opens up to a dining area as well as a second floor stairwell. Listening habits are 80% HT 20% music. I am a complete newb in this fantastic hobbie. Any suggestions and advice sincerely appreciated. Thanks.

Have you done any equalization in that room? Your room is almost a square and will result in quite a bit of cancellation issues. Having two subs will help a good deal, but obviously changing from your Hsu to the PB13 Ultra will be quite an upgrade. Why not try to add a second VTF3-HO and then equalize the peaks and valleys by adding a Behringer Feedback destroyer and running REW to fix any inherent issues with your room?

There are going to be a lot of differing opinions on this by the way. So get ready for those.

Try the MBM-12 first. It is less expensive than any other move you want to do...
It provides very good mid bass impact that your HO cannot provide alone, and you will increase the low end too...

The right answer is that you should try to find out what your current bass system is currently lacking. The two different upgrade routes you are talking about will most likely give you different results. The PB13 is a better sub overall, but if your room frequency response is lacking in the "slam" area, the MBM pair may be more what you are looking for. I'd suggest going to the Home Theater Shack site and learning about the free REW software. This alnog with a Radio Shack SPL meter and a soundcard can enable you to chart your frequency response and then you can tell where your system comes up short.

I noticed your room dimensions. The ceiling height is exactly half the length of two walls and not too far from half the length of the others. This can make for some frequency response irregularities which can be difficult to fix. Charting the response will at least let you know where the problems lie.

I can almost with 100% confidence, state that in this room, 2 subs will help a lot.

I currently own a VTF3-HO w/turbo. It's a great sub, but I have this NEED for a little more slam. I've been saving my beer money all summer and I thought I was about ready to pull the trigger on a pair of MBM-12's. Anyways, over the weekend while I was drinking some beer, I started thinking about why not just upgrade my sub. I can sell the Hsu SW and buy the PB13. I know my wife would like ONLY one sub in the house. I know that I want the best sound and perfomance for what I can afford. She'll have to live with my all MY subs if that be the case. My room roughly measures 20X22X10 and opens up to a dining area as well as a second floor stairwell. Listening habits are 80% HT 20% music. I am a complete newb in this fantastic hobbie. Any suggestions and advice sincerely appreciated. Thanks.

If you get the two MBM-12's and place both of them nearfield and set the crossover to 80 Hz on your receiver, with the 3HO + Turbo placed in a front corner with the crossover on the '3HO +T set to 50Hz, you can start to minimize room effects. As thirdeye noted, square rooms tend to be difficult, but with two MBMs right next to or behind the seating position, you shouldn't have much room interaction with the MBMs.

Some people end up putting their deep bass sub nearfield and one MBM with each of their mains.

Have you contacted Pete or Dr. Hsu about their recommmendation for placement? They are always willing to look at a drawing of your room and suggest best placement.

The right answer is that you should try to find out what your current bass system is currently lacking. The two different upgrade routes you are talking about will most likely give you different results. The PB13 is a better sub overall, but if your room frequency response is lacking in the "slam" area, the MBM pair may be more what you are looking for. I'd suggest going to the Home Theater Shack site and learning about the free REW software. This alnog with a Radio Shack SPL meter and a soundcard can enable you to chart your frequency response and then you can tell where your system comes up short.

I noticed your room dimensions. The ceiling height is exactly half the length of two walls and not too far from half the length of the others. This can make for some frequency response irregularities which can be difficult to fix. Charting the response will at least let you know where the problems lie.


There lies the dilemma. The results will be vastly different depending on the route I choose. My system needs a little more of that chest slam. I like feeling
gunshots, car crashes, etc. I think having the addtional MBM-12's will help reduce any nulls based on my room configuration and my SP. But, I was also hoping that having one really good sub that I've only read about would produce results that would give me that chest slam without having addtional speakers in my home. For now, I will stick with my original decision to at least try the pair of MBM-12 first since Hsu is only about 30 minutes away. I'll let you all know how it goes. Thanks

The answer is simple here right?

Dual PB13's right? :)

Ya if you can drive and pick up and then return with no money lost. Try the MBM first.

If that doesn't do it sell it off and get a PB-13. The PB-13 gives me everything ....LOW END and Chest Slam.

But John is right....DUAL Pb-13's are the way to go for any room if you have the $$$$$$$$$$$$$! :)

The answer is simple here right?

Dual PB13's right? :)

AND dual mbm-12s of course :)

AND dual mbm-12s of course :)

Do you seriously think there is a need for dual MBM's with Dual Ultras?

The Ultras response from 40-80hz is unreal.

At that point adding Dual MBM's I would think might just cause more room issues with cancellation and what not..

If the room happens to cause a severe cancellation problem between 40 and 80hz, as good as the Ultras are, they still might not solve it. They certainly have no deficiency in that area, but a room with mutiples of a certain dimensions (10' and 20') can have some weird cancellation and standing waves. For a problem like that, sometimes the MBM's can be a workable solution.

If the room happens to cause a severe cancellation problem between 40 and 80hz, as good as the Ultras are, they still might not solve it. They certainly have no deficiency in that area, but a room with mutiples of a certain dimensions (10' and 20') can have some weird cancellation and standing waves. For a problem like that, sometimes the MBM's can be a workable solution.

I also have a square room and a pair of MBM-12's. I haven't integrated them into the system properly yet. I posted asking about nearfield subwoofer placement (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1068239)

John

I don't know if money is a concern but four Epik conquests, each with a JL F113 on top and four nearfield MBM-12s will work nicely. Otherwise, try one MBM. It made a substantial midbass impact, when nearfield, with my Hsu (single sub).

How about 2 ho's with turbos and one MBM. You already have one. The cost won't be that much more. Of course the WAF is low.

How about 2 ho's with turbos and one MBM. You already have one. The cost won't be that much more. Of course the WAF is low.

Turbos are gone and no longer being produced.

That was short. I am always for matching output. If you can only hit 110 db's with the low frequencies there is no need to have 120 db's at the midbass range. I had that before and the midbass takes over. Having the same output through out the range is ideal for me so that is why I suggested 2 subs with one MBM-12. The MBM-12 can hit high spl's at the midbass area and I would want to match it. Of course if the subs are capable then it is all good.

That was short. I am always for matching output. If you can only hit 110 db's with the low frequencies there is no need to have 120 db's at the midbass range. I had that before and the midbass takes over. Having the same output through out the range is ideal for me so that is why I suggested 2 subs with one MBM-12. The MBM-12 can hit high spl's at the midbass area and I would want to match it. Of course if the subs are capable then it is all good.


I agree. One MBM is enough for most subs when nearfield.

Since your going with 2 mbm-12's you can cross them over really high, like around 120hz for some really good midbass that your mains most likely cannot provide.:D

lokimydog,

See what I told you? I knew you would get a ton of recommendations :D

We've seen everything from "add a single MBM" to "four Epik conquests, each with a JL F113 on top and four nearfield MBM-12s". Just FYI those 2 recommendations range from several hundred dollars to about $25,000!!!!" :eek:

Since your going with 2 mbm-12's you can cross them over really high, like around 120hz for some really good midbass that your mains most likely cannot provide.:D


That's the plan right now. I think they'll be perfect with my 340SE's. I'll move the VTF-3HO nearfield. Probably in a year or two I will upgrade the sub to something smaller in size. Maybe a pair UL-15, a pair of PB13 or the next latest and greatest. Money is kind of funny these days.

I'm still suprise how my wife puts up with that hideous turbo. I think it's ugly cool.

That's the plan right now. I think they'll be perfect with my 340SE's. I'll move the VTF-3HO nearfield. Probably in a year or two I will upgrade the sub to something smaller in size. Maybe a pair UL-15, a pair of PB13 or the next latest and greatest. Money is kind of funny these days.

I'm still suprise how my wife puts up with that hideous turbo. I think it's ugly cool.

I run two MBM-12's (one with each main), and two HSU 3.3's (nearfield, behind the seating area). Lots of good mid bass and bottom end punch that makes the couch vibrate. Depending on your speakers, you can run a high xover from the LFE. Play around with it and watch the voice (audio - talking)from the center channel to see if it gets clearer or heavy with bass. Don't run too hot with bottom bass, keep it at the same level as the other speakers or maybe up to +3 hotter. Remember to keep it all ballanced.


Bill