http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/index.php?/library/articles/furring_channel_with_resilient_sound_clips

Don't just buy what a local distributor tells you will work...

So, I learned something. You want the flex that the 25ga. material provides. No wonder you were telling me to stick with 7/8" channel versus the 1-1/2" channel. The 1-1/2" will not be as resilient. I wasn't sure what you meant when you said the 1-1/2" channel isn't as flexable and harder to find. I need the extra furring space but, I guess I'll still go the route of adding some strips of wood underneath the whisper clip and use the 7/8" channel. Extra work but, I guess it's worth it. Thanks Ted.

Make no mistake. 20 ga and 1.5" tall channel is still excellent as hell. The biggest issue is not to try and use the 2 legged resilient channel... or standard resilient channel for that matter.

You said "hell"... clean it up mister, clean it up...

So if you are going to use the Whisper Clips with 2 layers of 5/8" GG, what hat channel do you recommend?

sorry, found it:

Technically, the Hat Channel is known as a 7/8” Drywall Furring Channel. For our purposes, we want:

Gauge: 25 Gauge
Height: 7/8”
Acceptable width: 2 ½”, 2 9/16” and 2 5/8”

what length should you look for. 5 feet? 8 feet?

They come 10' and 12'

Interesting - thanks for the link, Ted.

Out of curiosity, is this based on actual testing of the two types of hat channel, or sonic theory, or both? I'm curious how much of a difference it makes.

When I did my ceiling, I looked for 20-gauge figuring that 2 layers of drywall is heavy and I'd efel better with a sturdier hat channel. I could only find 25-gauge, so I went with tat. God thing, I guess. :)

Hey Kevin,

The relationship between flex and isolation is very well documented. More flex = more isolation. All things being equal:

24" OC framing isolates better than 16" OC

25 gauge steel framing isolates better than wood

a 2 piece clip isolates better than a 1 piece

In steel stud walls, the flex advantage goes away when you go from 25 ga to 20 ga.

Not to mention that the manufacturers of clips all spec 25 ga.

Anyone have any issues with 2 layers of 5/8" on the ceiling with clips and 25 guage?

The SSMA specs 25 ga Drywall Furring Channel to hold slightly more weight and a span over 4'. So using double 5/8" is both under weight and under span rating.

What is it about the extra 1/8" that would make 2 3/4" wide track unacceptable?

The clips have a groove that is 2 1/2" wide. You can squeeze a 2 5/8" max in there, but a 2 3/4" will not remotely seat well. Could just pull out.

I definitely am with you on the acoustical properties.


I went with 20ga on the ceiling for my 2 layers + gg.

I see the SSMA specs, but my only concern was the connection of the channel to the structure.

The SSMA indicates .75" bearing, which I may be interpreting incorrectly as the surface bearing on the fastener which in turn is supporting the load at the specified intervals for L/240 or L/360. It also doesn't state where the bearing is, on the flange (both sides of the flange?) or in the center of the channel.

At least with the RSIC, the bearing does not appear to be that large; maybe if you combined all the bearing surfaces for each clip it is. Call me paranoid (but don't call me late for dinner).

Has there been any testing to see just how much weight a clip+furring will support before failure?

Tim

Hey Tim,

An interesting factoid... a 200 lb man can do a chinup on 25 ga Furring Channel in the middle of the channel when clipped. Also, this is the exact assembly that passes UL ceiling burn tests. So it's plenty solid.

Regarding the bearing length, if you add up the four 3/16" clip connection points, you get your 0.75" bearing length.

Lastly, a properly constructed 25 ga Furring Channel is hemmed on the long edges, resulting in 20% more steel in the jaws of the clip than if it were a 20 ga channel.

I'm going to take a picture of a 220 pound fat man doing a chinup on hat channel and post tonight... if I survive. Stay Tuned.

The SSMA specs 25 ga Drywall Furring Channel to hold slightly more weight and a span over 4'. So using double 5/8" is both under weight and under span rating.

Ted,

Does it matter if the 2nd drywall layer is installed parallel with the channel (i.e., is the rating still valid in this configuration)? I'm curious because I have short ceilings and am planning to install the the isolation clips and channel to blocking attached to the existing ceiling joists to save headroom -- a fairly common technique it seems on this forum. It so happens that I have a soffit running down the middle of the room and if it is ok to run the 2nd layer of drywall parallel to the channel (I will run the 1st layer perpendicular since it won't be seen), I can completely avoid butt joints in the ceiling! :D

The board orientation does not matter. Good question.

The fat man survived the hanging. Pictures at 11:00

The following is a highly confidential look into the ultra-sophisticated labs at the Soundproofing Company. The labs are underground in an undisclosed location. We would appreciate you not forwarding this image to anyone else, and compromise our competitive R&D advantage.

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/media/avsforum/hanging-from-resilient-clips.jpg

Note that we have to maintain a calibrated man for these things, and he eats like a Beluga. Also note the advanced red lifting cube, known as a PET (Personnel Elevated Transport). It's all quite technical and I won't presume to bore you with the technicalities.

What you're looking at is 218 pounds of really, really dead weight hanging on a 25 gauge Drywall Furring Channel. The little 3" wood blocks resting on the top are to keep the thin ropes from creasing the channel. The blocks are maybe 8" away from a Clip. The clips were installed with the standard spacing.

You can't tell, but there was some bouncing up and down with no clip or channel failure.

You sold me. The only debate is the weight. He doesn't look more then 214-215lbs at the most. : )

Ted White = BigmouthinDC? you be the judge. Looks like Ted dyes his hair.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k242/BritInVA/Other/05219624.jpg

I'm sitting here typing in my faded salmon colored t-shirt LMAO.

You sold me. The only debate is the weight. He doesn't look more then 214-215lbs at the most. : )

The cellphone in the cargo pocket puts him over the 215 mark.

yes, as I said, he's calibrated...

Geez Big, I never really realized what a handsome man you are...

Someone asked on a recent thread:

"Why can't you use 2 3/4" Furring Channel in the clips. It's not much more than the 2 1/2" spec."

The wider, unhemmed edges don't seat properly in the clip. Here's a 2 3/4" section of Channel:

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/media/avsforum/oversized-hat-channel.jpg

Note how there's poor seating and contact in the clip.

The following is a highly confidential look into the ultra-sophisticated labs at the Soundproofing Company. The labs are underground in an undisclosed location. We would appreciate you not forwarding this image to anyone else, and compromise our competitive R&D advantage.


Hahaha thanks Ted. Now that's good customer support.



Pun intended.

Tim

Ted, dumb question, but since hat chan availability differs from location to location... if 2.75" is all you have available to you, what about if you used a dremel to cut small notches where the clips would slide into?

Hey Staff,

The proper 2 1/2" material is hemmed along the long edges. It starts at 2 3/4" and them down to 2 1/2".

Due to the hem, there's 20% more steel shoved into the clip grooves. So that's the way to go.

I should find a list of known manufacturers and provide a list of their distributor locations...

The clips have a groove that is 2 1/2" wide. You can squeeze a 2 5/8" max in there, but a 2 3/4" will not remotely seat well. Could just pull out.

I just checked. I lucked out and am using 2-5/8" 25 gauge channel. It would have sucked to have to take it all down, buy new channel and hang it up again. Though I guess that's better than it falling down in the future!

CJ

You could always try a chin up like that guy in the pic...

You could always try a chin up like that guy in the pic...

There's no way I would look that good!

CJ

Oh puh-leaseee!

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/index.php?/library/articles/furring_channel_with_resilient_sound_clips

Don't just buy what a local distributor tells you will work...

Ted,

Thanks for all the information. I have a couple of questions, and I then plan to call you Monday. I hope you have some time in your day to help me finalize what I need and get it taken care of.

Here are my questions:
1. hat channel. I have called around absolutely everyone in my area, and NO one has 2 5/8" hat channel. It's all 2 3/4". I'm concerned that it won't seat well, and I have ordered the hat channel. Is there any solution?

2. The resilient clips. I notice in your picture that you place clips right in the corner. I know the recommended distance from the corner is no more than 6". What is the most common method you use to properly calculate the number of clips needed?

3. Laying out the hat channel according to almost all instructions - including your site - the seams of the drywall are not going to meet on the hat channel. Should I be adjusting my horizontal seams so they do match up, or is it not that large an issue using acoustical sealant on the seams and then traditional taping techniques on the 2nd layer of drywall?

4. On my ceiling, I expect to use the clips/hat channel and GG technique. I have a low ceiling as it is. We have calculated our first reflection points on the ceiling, and are considering not using the clips/hat channel in that section so that we can inlay the acoustical panels into the ceiling in that area. Is this going to totally screw up the rest of the ceiling's sound-isolation, even using 2 drywall layers and GG?

Thanks in advance. I am hoping to call Monday as well.

Best,

D

I am also looking at constructing my ceiling with the clips/channel method. I've found a local supplier of drywall hat channel, but when I asked them for the dimensions, they said it was 7/8" x 1.5". Is this even possible - has anyone ever heard of 1.5" channel? I'm assuming it's actually 2.5" and someone just has their info mixed up. Unfortunately this seems to be my only local supplier.

And while on the topic, how does one go about mounting recessed lighting using this method? I'm assuming the recessed light assembly would get mounted to the channel itself?

If you have to order Hat Channel, what are some good on line sources?

7/8" Drywall Furring Channel is the official name. I'm not aware of a 1.5" product. I agree they probably mean 2 1/2"

Ordering online might be pricey. Big cardboard tube is oversized.

7/8" Drywall Furring Channel is the official name. I'm not aware of a 1.5" product. I agree they probably mean 2 1/2"

Ordering online might be pricey. Big cardboard tube is oversized.

Yes....I guess I will have to stop in there and actually see it for myself and take some measurements....

I just wanted to drop a note to recommend an excellent distributor I found.

Eric Pollard, the owner of the Sound Isolation Store (www.soundisolationstore.com) has excellent prices, great service, and the shipping was both immediate and very reasonable. Highly recommended.

Btw, my local drywall supplier can get the 1-1/2" DWFC, but it's a special order, and much more expensive than the standard 7/8" hat channel. My contractor suggested we fur-out the studs to increase the air-gap, which seems to work much better, and is cheaper than the taller channel. We also mounted green iso tape on the hat channel, and ran MLV between the studs and the WhisperClips (so it ends up pressed against the sheetrock by the insulation). The iso tape is very inexpensive compared to everything else we've done.

-Joe
"Drums at 2:00am"

This will sound critical, and I apologize for that. I post this because many other read these posts and it's important that correct information is maintained here.

#1 the MLV on the studs will cause a debilitating triple leaf effect. High frequency bleed. You would have been much better off just leaving it out.

#2 The 1 1/2" tall furring channel is too stiff. 20 ga is also too stiff. 25 ga. 7/8" furring channel is what you want.

#3 Using the tape you described on the channel will do absolutely nothing. And I realize that is an absolute statement. The channel + clips already decoupled the drywall, and the tape has insufficient contact area to provide actual damping.

Sorry to be a party pooper.

Well, my hat channel showed up yesterday and my hunch was right. It's really 7/8" x 2 1/2" x 25gauge. It's exactly what the build calls for.

One thing I do have to figure out is whether or not I should move the hat channel so the edges of the dryway meet up on a hat channel (or move my seams). This is only for the horizontal, first layer of drywall.

Joe:

I don't know who sold you that bill of goods, but; as Ted pointed out the tape on the HAT channel is providing no benefit to you (to the vendor maybe, but not to you). Same is true with the MLV...as it is installed, you've reduced the performance of your room, not improved it (and you, I'm sure, paid dearly for that).

and ran MLV between the studs and the WhisperClips.
Let's see. You paid for extra material and labor to create a larger air gap, then you paid a whole bunch of money to kill the air gap, create a triple leaf, and reduce your wall's performance. Hopefully, you're not paying extra for all this fine advice you're getting.

I just wanted to drop a note to recommend an excellent distributor I found.

Eric Pollard, the owner of the Sound Isolation Store (www.soundisolationstore.com (http://www.soundisolationstore.com)) has excellent prices and service. I just bought a few hundred WhisperClips at $5.00/ea and several cases of Green Glue at $155/case, plus MLV and putty pads. His prices are excellent, and the shipping was both immediate and very reasonable. Highly recommended.

Btw, my local drywall supplier can get the 1-1/2" DWFC, but it's a special order, and much more expensive than the standard 7/8" hat channel. My contractor suggested we fur-out the studs to increase the air-gap, which seems to work much better, and is cheaper than the taller channel. We also mounted green iso tape on the hat channel, and ran MLV between the studs and the WhisperClips. The iso tape is about $20/100' roll (http://www.yahoosoundproofing.com/isotape.html), which is very inexpensive compared to everything else we've done.

-Joe
"Drums at 2:00am"
I have learned that when it comes to this type of build, do not trust your contractor. My father-in-law has been a contractor his entire life, and he is one of the best at what he does, and he is flat out clueless with the nuances of building a sound-isolated room. He does know how to get the job done once we understand exactly what needs to be done, the hows and the whys, but until then he would have definitely gone down the wrong path, and we would have wasted A LOT of time, effort and money.

Thanks to Ted, Dennis, Eric and everyone else on these forums who have helped educate me - and fairly quickly at that.

I owe all you guys a beer. :)

#1 the MLV on the studs will cause a debilitating triple leaf effect. High frequency bleed. You would have been much better off just leaving it out.

I'm somewhat surprised that the supplier didn't caution him against the MLV as he also bought GG there, and he has this on his site:
http://www.soundisolationstore.com/Articles.asp?ID=139

CJ

I'm somewhat surprised that the supplier didn't caution him against the MLV as he also bought GG there, and he has this on his site:


CJ

I was definitely not under the impression that the MLV was being used in a way to cause a triple leaf. I would never give any advice that would suggest that this would be a good idea or knowingly allow a customer to be lead to believe this would be a good method for sound isolation.

This is not a mistake done by the above customer that can't be fixed as the MLV is the only product that has yet to arrive due to freight delivery times. I will definitely make sure the MLV is used in the most effective way possible and certainly not in a way to create a triple leaf.

I'm not sure of who is contractor is or what he is telling him exactly, but he definitely wasn't advised by me....

I was definitely not under the impression that the MLV was being used in a way to cause a triple leaf. I would never give any advice that would suggest that this would be a good idea or knowingly allow a customer to be lead to believe this would be a good method for sound isolation.

This is not a mistake done by the above customer that can't be fixed as the MLV is the only product that has yet to arrive due to freight delivery times. I will definitely make sure the MLV is used in the most effective way possible and certainly not in a way to create a triple leaf.

I'm not sure of who is contractor is or what he is telling him exactly, but he definitely wasn't advised by me....
Howdy, Eric. I just spent a couple of hours last night on chat with Eric, making sure that I was doing the right thing. I will definitely say that his advice is accurate, and factual, and I in no way felt that I was being mis lead. Of course, I have also spoken to others, and made sure that I have several different perspectives as well, but that does not negate the fact that Eric and company worked hard with me to ensure I was getting what I needed to accomplish my tasks.

It sounds like there's some confusion with what this person is learning from avs and their knowledgable people, and what his contractor is offering up.

Advice, use what you learn here when it comes to constructing a sound-isolated room, and seek out the advice from the industry experts. I have never seen an industry where its experts are so quick to educate, and inform. Props to all of you.

Hi folks,

I came up with the hare-brained plan to put MLV behind the sheetrock all by myself. I didn't consult with Eric before I placed my order, which I should have, and he's been very proactive by contacting me to make sure I'm getting what I really want.

Here's the stackup I 'm planning. Let me know what you think.

5/8 sheetrock (existing receive side)
2x4 wood 16" oc (existing framing)
R-19 UltraTouch cotton insulation (5-1/2" thick, extends ~2" beyond studs)
2-layers 1/8 MLV stapled to studs, billowing over insulation
WhisperClips screwed to studs over MLV
7/8 DWFC pressed against MLV
1-7/16" isolation tape over DWFC
5/8 type-X sheetrock
green glue, 3 tubes/sheet
5/8 type-X sheetrock
sheetrock & framing gaps sealed w/Titebond #2892 Acoustical Sound Sealant

The idea was to have the MLV press against the back of the sheetrock to maximize the insulated airgap and provide a second layer of viscoelastic damping (and in a different freq range from the GG).

I could also put the MLV into the cavity before the insulation (i.e. against the back of the receive side), but this uses more material and is a bit more labor intensive.

My understanding of the triple-leaf effect is that additional *gapped* leaves reduce the maximum airgap depth, but if this remains the same, the added mass will have a benefit. I.e. four (4) evenly-spaced layers of sheetrock is worse than two double layers with the same total width.

I considered adding more layers of sheetrock/GG, but doesn't this have a rapidly diminishing effect because it requires more clips, and closer-spaced DWFC (which increases low-frequency coupling)? I assuming I can only use 3-layers at 24" spacing, and I need to pass a city building inspection when I'm done.

As for the iso tape, it's cheap, and I thought it would help reduce coupling, since it damps the sheetrock to hat-channel interface. Is this not the case (i.e. because of the screws)?

Thanks for your advice.

-Joe

"A lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client."

Holy smokes. Well, this might be a good example of throwing everything available at a build and hope something works. You have many more products than needed.

#1 The Ultra-touch won't work any better than the cheapest fiberglass from Home Depot. But it is soft and if you have fiberglass fiber concerns it's an alternative.

#2 You would never want more than R13 insulation in a 2x4 wall, which is 3.5". Sounds like you have R19 (6") and this will compress to a point where it would conduct vibration.

#3 The MLV would only have value if placed in between the drywall so as not to create a small trapped air space. I mentioned this earlier. MLV isn't best deployed in walls and ceilings typically. And you have two layers. Why not simply use drywall? Mass is mass. And MLV is $$ compared to drywall.

#4 The foam tape does nothing, as mentioned earlier. It will not damp, has no mass, can't decouple and has insufficient volume to absorb.

#5 The Furring Channel compressed against the billowing insulation and double MLV will probably remove 95%+ of the required resilience. The Furring Channel can't move freely. You would effectively re-couple the decoupled clip array.

#6 You just don't need three tubes of Green Glue per sheet. Two is plenty.

#7 You could perhaps have decoupled the walls with framing or framing modifications. This is a more effective decoupling as well as being less expensive.

What would I suggest?

A. Modify the existing single stud wall to a staggered wall, losing 1" in the process, or build a second stud wall in front of the original. Both are less expensive and more complete decoupling. Skip the clips on the walls.

B. Use the clips to decouple the ceiling

C. Use R13 fiberglass in the walls, and R19 in the ceiling.

D. Use two sheets of 5/8" drywall and Green Glue at the rate of 2 tubes per sheet.

E. Seal the corners and gaps with sealant.

The result will work better and cost literally a fraction of what you proposed.

The process is more simple than you're attempting. This article might help.

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/index.php?/library/articles/elements_of_room_construction

Wow. What a thread. PB&J, you spent all these hours on the phone with that sales dude and this is what you took away for a plan? Find a new resource, maybe.

Anyway, has anyone found that the correct 7/8" drywall furring channel is harder to find? My normal supplier is thinking about not carrying it any longer. Seems it's a slow sales item.

They say they already have "a lot of different channels"

Thanks for the input folks.

Btw, I did not spend hours on the phone with Eric, someone else's post said that. Eric simply responded very quickly to my emailed question about shipping costs and delivery times, and has been very proactive helping me resolve the issues raised on this thread. He didn't misinform me because I didn't ask him about the stackup.

Btw, the correct 7/8 DWFC was in stock at my local drywall supplier, but said they don't get a lot of requests for it. The 1-1/2" DWFC was not in stock and was much more expensive.

Well, in any case, regardless of where your advice is coming from, you need to find a better source of information. You're spending a very significant sum of money to fall very short of what you're attempting to do.

Not to Hijack Ted here, but since MLV was brought up in the conversation, I want to jump all over this. Mass Loaded Vinyl does have it's uses and applications (I've specified it in industrial applications for example). However, it is extremely rare that its use makes sense in a residential application considering its cost/benefit ratio. More to the point, absolutely every website I've seen (except one) where MLV is sold, illustrates installation and application techniques which are dead wrong, reduce wall impedance, and can have the opposite affect the buyer intended. This just simply leads me to believe those selling the product either have no clue about sound isolation or don't care about the appropriate uses for the products they sell. In the typical case, it adds significant cost to a project needlessly and defeats the original planned objective.

Btw, I did not spend hours on the phone with Eric, someone else's post said that. I said that I spent several hours with Eric to confirm a few things before purchasing, and that was after speaking with Dennis as well as few others (unfortunately, my path and Ted's never crossed).


Btw, the correct 7/8 DWFC was in stock at my local drywall supplier, but said they don't get a lot of requests for it. The 1-1/2" DWFC was not in stock and was much more expensive.

You want 7/8" x 2 1/2" x 25 gauge hat channel. It comes in 12ft. lengths.

Perhaps more specifically 7/8" Drywall Furring Channel. That is the official terminology from the Steel Stud Manufacturers Association.

Perhaps more specifically 7/8" Drywall Furring Channel.

Can I get that stuff from Home Depot or Lowes :)
I have spent many hours looking for a place to buy this stuff.

Forget Lowes and HD, look up drywall suppliers or drywall guys and ask them for your suppliers.

Based on a quick search, call:
Empire Drywall Construction Inc
16 Equinox Ln, Freehold, NJ (4.19mi from you)
(732) 308-4446

Ask them.. but make sure it is the correct stuff!

Forget Lowes and HD, look up drywall suppliers or drywall guys and ask them for your suppliers.

Based on a quick search, call:
Empire Drywall Construction Inc
16 Equinox Ln, Freehold, NJ (4.19mi from you)
(732) 308-4446

Ask them.. but make sure it is the correct stuff!

OK thanks Staffy.
I will call in the morning.

The timing could not be better as I will start my HT build next week ;)

And make sure they understand exactly what you want. Often they will say "this is what everyone else uses..." and it may be completely wrong for resilient clips

I second that Ted. I ran into a situation today that completely showed the difference. I spoke with my materials supplier as I needed another 11 pieces of channel to finish some small areas and run an additional wall row to anchor the soffit in the room. They absolutely claimed that all the 7/8 they had was the same gauge, so I thought nothing of it when I picked up this and a bunch of other supplies (they loaded it) since I had bought it from them recently. Well, I got it home and noticed it was different...heavier/thicker. Of course, it's 20 gauge. For kicks, I tried snapping it into a RSIC-V clip...yeah, it works, but you almost need pliers to squeeze it in there and the result is deformation rather than flex within the channel. Given the deformation and resulting loose fit, I'd be concerned about post-build rattling if I were to try and use it. Anyway, I called them back and luckily reached someone who had a clue - will exchange the 20 for their 25 gauge tomorrow.

Ted,

Thanks for all the information. I have a couple of questions, and I then plan to call you Monday. I hope you have some time in your day to help me finalize what I need and get it taken care of.

Here are my questions:
1. hat channel. I have called around absolutely everyone in my area, and NO one has 2 5/8" hat channel. It's all 2 3/4". I'm concerned that it won't seat well, and I have ordered the hat channel. Is there any solution?

2. The resilient clips. I notice in your picture that you place clips right in the corner. I know the recommended distance from the corner is no more than 6". What is the most common method you use to properly calculate the number of clips needed?

3. Laying out the hat channel according to almost all instructions - including your site - the seams of the drywall are not going to meet on the hat channel. Should I be adjusting my horizontal seams so they do match up, or is it not that large an issue using acoustical sealant on the seams and then traditional taping techniques on the 2nd layer of drywall?

4. On my ceiling, I expect to use the clips/hat channel and GG technique. I have a low ceiling as it is. We have calculated our first reflection points on the ceiling, and are considering not using the clips/hat channel in that section so that we can inlay the acoustical panels into the ceiling in that area. Is this going to totally screw up the rest of the ceiling's sound-isolation, even using 2 drywall layers and GG?

Thanks in advance. I am hoping to call Monday as well.

Best,

D


I am running into the same problem. 2.5" Furring channel does not exist in my part of the world.

It seems to be a major oversight on the part of the (admittedly niche) sound isolation suppliers (PAC, et al), or the steel industry.

Large swathes of the continent consider 2.75" hat track to be standard, and not 2.5". Most people look at me funny when I even ask for an "oddball" spec.

I'm wondering if I shouldn't just ship some up there. Look for metal furring made by Dietrich

Any updates on how to locate the correct furring channel? I called one supplier today and they just had the 1 1/2".

I'm wondering if I shouldn't just ship some up there. Look for metal furring made by Dietrich

I ended up getting my drywall supplier to get Baileys to custom order it for me ... they delivered it wednesday ... wrong stuff :( ... they went to all that trouble to bend up more 2 3/4" :rolleyes: ( somebody cant read a workorder )

so I expect to see the right stuff next week :)

My ceiling is still up, attached to some 2.75" hemmed.

Over-under on which of our ceilings falls first?

My ceiling is still up, attached to some 2.75" hemmed.

Over-under on which of our ceilings falls first?

I'm betting yours as mine is not even up yet :D

I continue to be shocked at how hard this standard product is to find.

Ted, Scruffy and I are from the same town, so that makes it looks worse than it is.

On the other hand, Bailey metals seems to be dominant throughout Canada, and their "standard" is this 2.75" stuff. It is hemmed, unlike the 2.75" that you have shown in pics, which is unhemmed.

This may have more to do with different standards in different countries. In the States, The SSMA (Steel Stud Manufacturers Association) dictates the manufacturing spec and subsequent performance ratings. The SSMA may not be followed at all in Canada. Perhaps a different set of specs.

In the end, I asked one of the more well-known soundproofing companies here in Canada bout it.

They are also the distributors for PAC, Isonmax, Green Glue and a variety of other well known items. Bill walked out to his hat track supplies, personally checked the width of the stuff they were using and have been using for years: a little less than 2.75" form Bailey. The same stuff I had. I then called the company that supplies my isolation clips and talked to the engineer there and he said that my clips were specced to accept a 2.75" track...but that was the max.

In the end, I put it up, it was solid, and the ceiling is still there.

However, I DO NOT recommend using 2.75" for all of the reasons that have been described. Bill also mentioned that he has run into the 2.75" unhemmed, and it is absolutely not appropriate for use in any clip whatsoever. So that's my disclaimer.

I then called the company that supplies my isolation clips and talked to the engineer there and he said that my clips were specced to accept a 2.75" track...but that was the max.

Might I ask who this individual was?

The company is Pliteq.

www.pliteq.com.

It wasn't somebody from PAC, to be clear, as my isolation clips )other than the DC-04s) weren't from PAC.

It's hard to compare a DC-04 to a a Pliteq Genie because of different shape, and such, but the Pliteq felt every bit as good quality as the PAC part.

The Whisper clips have a slot 2.43" wide for the Furring Channel

The PAC clips have a slot 2.34" wide

The Pliteq clips have a slot 2.3" wide

Whisper and PAC spec the use of a 2.5" Drywall Furring Channel. Given that the Pliteq is the narrowest of all the clips, it's the least able to handle a 2 3/4" channel.

PAC and Whisper recommend a max of 2.625" channel.

I'm not saying that there's a problem, but you see my point.

Yup, I see that.

I did go back and forth on it a lot. The Pliteq specs actually specify a max of 2.75" right in their documentation. Obviously the value of the testing/spec/manufacturing is only as good as the people behind it.

My comfort more came from a good history of successful applications with the exact combination I used. I consider the risk low.

I would have gone with 2.5" if it was readily available

I'm also having a heck of a time finding the right size. All I can find is 2 3/4".

I've been finding it at my local Home Depot. It's not always where you THINK it should be, but it's been there. The last time it was stacked on one of those rolling carts and just sitting in the middle of an aisle. One time I saw it in with all the drywall tools and another time it was in the aisle with the other steel studs.

I just called a dozen places in my area and everyone has 2.75" It is starting to get frustrating!

I just called a dozen places in my area and everyone has 2.75" It is starting to get frustrating!

That Sucks! I'm going to be needing it soon. I'm located in northern IL.

I just called a dozen places in my area and everyone has 2.75" It is starting to get frustrating!

This is an increasing problem. I had the same issue, and a number of people around here have had the same issue.

I believe some manufacturers have switched to it, or the 2.5" manufacturers are losing market share.

In either case, it's something that really should/needs to be addressed by the clip manufacturers.

Disclaimer: I don't recommend the following:

I went with the Pliteq Genie clip. It's spec sheet says that a 2.75" hat track is acceptable as long as it is hemmed. Personally, I was barely satisfied with the fit and I would have gone with 2.5" had it been available. I spoke with an engineer at Pliteq and he seemed ok with it. One of the big acoustic suppliers her in Canada also uses the 2.75" stuff from Bailey (which is actually a bit smaller than 2.75", call it 2 5/8"). After many years of installs they have had no issues.

The Pliteq pieces seemed to be excellent quality..perhaps even better than the PAC DC-04 clips I had been using. They a less "stamped" feel to them, if that makes sense. They were also cheaper, and seemed to provide a touch more clearance.

I know that Ted is very anti-2.75" hat track (although I don't want to put words in his mouth), and his opinion is obviously one that should be considered the authority on the matter.

That Sucks! I'm going to be needing it soon. I'm located in northern IL.

The only places in IL I've called were in Antioch. I called a bunch of places in Milwaukee. Let me know if you find anywhere. I'm right in the Kenosha/Racine area. I need to call some more in the Chicago metro area.


This is an increasing problem. I had the same issue, and a number of people around here have had the same issue.

I believe some manufacturers have switched to it, or the 2.5" manufacturers are losing market share.

In either case, it's something that really should/needs to be addressed by the clip manufacturers.


Most places thought it was weird that I was even asking the width. They said no one ever asks that question.

I used RSIC-V clips with the hemmed 2 3/4" hat track commonly found at HD here in Canada. Since it is hemmed, and the difference in the specs from PAC for width of the track is 1 /16", I'm fairly comfortable that my ceiling will not fall down.

But I'll be sure to post pics if it does... :(

I used RSIC-V clips with the hemmed 2 3/4" hat track commonly found at HD here in Canada. Since it is hemmed, and the difference in the specs from PAC for width of the track is 1 /16", I'm fairly comfortable that my ceiling will not fall down.

But I'll be sure to post pics if it does... :(

This was basically the same conclusion I came to.

My solution will be a shelf full of hard hats that will be required to enter the theater from here on out. 5/8" drywall falling seven feet onto your head would hurt.

Most places thought it was weird that I was even asking the width. They said no one ever asks that question.

I spoke with the main distribution center for Bailey metals (a major player here), to see what the width of their stuff was. The guy at the office thought I was weird, and walked out to the yard to measure because he wasn't entirely sure.

These guys are supplying a massive quantity of this stuff to commercial and industrial applications.

I suspect that 2.75" hemmed hat track is being commonly used in this application all the time and people don't even know it. Most people aren't like me, and would either eyeball it, or deem it close enough. Besides, it doesn't take much effort to squish the track down 1/8" to make it look like 2.5"....

I will endeavor to engineer a solution tomorrow. I'll work with a Channel manufacturer to drop ship single-room quantities to a drywall distributor near whomever.

These materials are kept in master warehouses, so there is always supply in every state or region that can be pulled from as special order.

I will endeavor to engineer a solution tomorrow. I'll work with a Channel manufacturer to drop ship single-room quantities to a drywall distributor near whomever.

These materials are kept in master warehouses, so there is always supply in every state or region that can be pulled from as special order.

That would be great, Ted.

Thanks,
Tom

My drywall supplier got Baileys to do a custom order 2.5" for me ... it was a bit more expensive but my peace of mind was at stake :rolleyes:

I will endeavor to engineer a solution tomorrow. I'll work with a Channel manufacturer to drop ship single-room quantities to a drywall distributor near whomever.

These materials are kept in master warehouses, so there is always supply in every state or region that can be pulled from as special order.



You're the best Ted!

Ted, I'm terribly worried that my GC may have in fact used the 2 3/4". I'm not exactly the best measurer but I found an extra piece of the hat track that he used and I'm coming up with 2 3/4" (please tell me I just measured it wrong!). However, when I look at my pics, the whisper clip seems to be well seated. Of course, my theater is nearly done now. Is my ceiling at risk here?

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk177/queendvd/DSC_0478.jpg

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk177/queendvd/DSC_0480.jpg

Ok, I just measured it again. Do I count the hem? If I don't count the hem, then I get 2 1/2". Ted! Where are you?

Those look well seated. I'm only on a blackberry right now but will look on a bigger screen tomorrow. I don't want to overly alarm; we just want people to use the optimal material.

The optimal measurement is 2 1/2" and you don't interpolate for the hem. If it's hemmed and 2 1/2" wide, it's right on spec.

The optimal measurement is 2 1/2" and you don't interpolate for the hem. If it's hemmed and 2 1/2" wide, it's right on spec.

It's 2 3/4" hemmed :(...SIGH.

Queen, there is no buckling at all, so it looks like a great fit. Which is weird as we have seen pics from those that have forced them... maybe they used a different clip?

They look like a great fit. I agree. I think you're fine.

They look like a great fit. I agree. I think you're fine.

Thanks Ted. Maybe now I won't have those nightmares of my ceiling toppling down on our heads :o.

A colleague pointed me to this thread and I wanted to clarify some information regarding the Pliteq GenieClip. Here are some measurements done today with a micrometer: (1st number is Inside “Tip to Tip” Opening, then Inside “Claw” Opening)

RSIC-1: 1.943”, 2.350”
Genie Clip: 1.966”, 2.363”

Not sure if measurement was inaccurate, or scewed by ulterior motive.
Here are some photos of 2.75" Bailey Hat Channel fitted into the GenieClip, and a comparison of RSIC and GenieClip. The spec is for 2.5" hemmed edge 25 gauge, however the GenieClip can be used with 2.75" maximum.

WB

A colleague pointed me to this thread and I wanted to clarify some information regarding the Pliteq GenieClip. Here are some measurements done today with a micrometer: (1st number is Inside “Tip to Tip” Opening, then Inside “Claw” Opening)

RSIC-1: 1.943”, 2.350”
Genie Clip: 1.966”, 2.363”

Not sure if measurement was inaccurate, or scewed by ulterior motive.
Here are some photos of 2.75" Bailey Hat Channel fitted into the GenieClip, and a comparison of RSIC and GenieClip. The spec is for 2.5" hemmed edge 25 gauge, however the GenieClip can be used with 2.75" maximum.

WB



Good pics... for me they would be more effective if the ends were secured to wood.. that way the pinching would be more evident if it occurs.. my 2 cents!

Wil, do you work for Pliteq?

The Genie/ Bailey 2.75" combination is precisely what is holding up my ceiling right now.

So far so good, although history is not always a good predictor of the future. :P

Not sure if measurement was inaccurate, or scewed by ulterior motive.

WB

Wil, Are you referring to your previous measurements or mine when you refer to ulterior motives?

More pics of my clips/hat track setup can be found in my build thread...here's the post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15464920#post15464920

MacBuster, Yes, I am an engineer with Pliteq. Your project pics show more channel deformation than I have seen. I will continue to specify 2.5" hemmed as the ideal, however in many cases (as shown in my pictures), the 2.75" is an allowable max.

I think some of the deformation results from the clip being near the end of a loose piece of track.

When it was installed, it didn't display the deformation. After all, it's the same Bailey stuff that you have, I believe.

SWEET!!!

I just got an reply from one of the many email I sent out to suppliers anywhere near me. They carry 2 5/8" hat channel! It sounds dumb, but I'm so excited! My build was kinda put on hold because I needed them.

That would sure work. Good luck

I have a installation question for you guys, I using Whisper clips with 25 gauge hat channel to decouple my ceiling drywall. Where the last row of clips meets the wall framing does the hat channel have to stick out of Whisper clips any or should it be flush with the end of the clip?

Mach3, that's a good question. Won't really matter, but for practical purposes, you might have it stick out 1/2". Again, this is certainly not critical.

Thanks for the info Ted, I just wanted to confirm before the drywall goes up :)

Mach3, why can't you be like the rest of us, do it wrong, then rip it all out and start all over again? Where is all the fun in getting it right the first time? Pfft.. Sellout. ;)

I did have all the walls & half the clips up before I realized my last problem, so don't worry I made my fair share of mistakes. I think I'm on plan G or is it H now ;) The biggest issue with my build has been all the sub-par workmanship I keep finding as I started with a pre-finished basement. I good example of this is finding out that they only wiring one power circuit for a 900sf basement :mad: Because they did zero sound proofing it all had to come done anyway so I can make it right so I can fully enjoy my system at a decent volume level. Now I just have to get a quite days to myself so I can get some real work done.
My major error was testing the projector before room was done, now work seem to go alot slower :cool:

Would this ceiling batten as it is called in OZ work with whisper clips?
64mm = 2.5197" , 20mm = 0.7874" , 0.42mm = 26-27 gauge
It's pretty close. Maybe to thin if anything.

Hello Cabra

Width is fine. Maybe too thin as you pointed out. 25 Gauge is the minimum standard with hemmed edges to support double 5/8" drywall.


The problem is that the metal hat track can tear, especially if the edges are not hemmed.

Thats what I thought. The problem also is standard gyprock (drywall) comes in either 10mm or 13mm in Aust. So I either go with,
1. 3x10mm
2. 2x13mm
3.1x13mm & 2x10mm
Double 5/8" = 32mm

Craig

The relationship between flex and isolation is very well documented. More flex = more isolation. All things being equal:
Does the flex have a negative effect on the in room very low frequency response?

I've been told that the very low frequency (below 20Hz) response can suffer if the walls of a theater are not stiff enough. It seems isolation may come at the expense of very low frequency response.

A wall (room) will absorb the frequencies at and around the LF resonance point. We generally are effective at driving that LF point down pretty for. Introducing decoupling allows a big movement of that LF point, but flex is a big part of that in practice. You could build double block walls to achieve decoupling, bit not done much.

This decoupling helps things above the LF resonance point, but unfortunately worsens things below this new LF point. If all you wanted to stop was 20Hz sound, you'd have a coupled wall.

So there is a correlation between resonance and in-room absorption.

Regarding the in-room response relative to stiff walls, I have no data on this.

Ok, thanks for the quick reply.

The relationship between flex and isolation is very well documented. More flex = more isolation. All things being equal:

24" OC framing isolates better than 16" OC

25 gauge steel framing isolates better than wood

a 2 piece clip isolates better than a 1 piece

In steel stud walls, the flex advantage goes away when you go from 25 ga to 20 ga.

Not to mention that the manufacturers of clips all spec 25 ga.

Just wanted to re-introduce the context of my original point.

A more flexible coupled wall will allow internal damping to occur more efficiently.

A more flexible decoupled wall will also allow internal damping to occur more efficiently.

Any of these efficiencies are lost below the funsamental LF resonance point, where isolation becomes Mass (Stiffness) controlled

The relationship between flex and isolation is very well documented. More flex = more isolation. All things being equal:

24" OC framing isolates better than 16" OC

25 gauge steel framing isolates better than wood

A little out of spirit of this thread, but are these statements true in a double wall construction with separate theater joists -- a completely decoupled system, aside from a floating concrete slab floor? Or are these benefits, really only applicable in a system where true decoupling isn't possible?

You want decoupling to move that fundamental LF resonance point. Could be two massive, stiff solid concrete walls to create a decoupled double wall system. But poorly damped.

Internal damping = friction. Friction from flexing. A double wall system still needs to flex to internally damp.

Fortunately flexing is much easier when a wall has one leaf attached, as in a double stud wall system. So by definition the decoupled wall flexes, so much so that increasing the stud spacing, adding clips, etc, won't improve an already decoupled system.

These things would easily benefit a single stud (coupled system), but don't further improve a (typical) decoupled system.